Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Hi Chris My apologies for the delayed response, we are miles behind on E-Mail. I take your points regarding professional circumstances. You're correct, of course, in your assertion that one has to use the most appropriate tool to get the job done quickly and efficiently. I have to confess that I still use Windows in my professional environment because I have too. I have managed to get my head of department to come around to my way of thinking in terms of JFW, it has been abolished now from all of our networked machines. We've moved over to the donation-based system but that's another story for another group. I was not aware that there was a Sound Forge for Mac. However, I'm very reluctant these days to install trials because of the mess they leave behind if you remove them. Time, I guess, to dig out TrashMe. I also have a problem with Sony actually because Lynne bought a copy of the other Sound Forge a couple of years back. We got the download links, but no serial number. Therefore, we never got to use it despite numerous attempts to contact the developers. Again though that is for elsewhere. Kind regards --- Gordon Smith --- gor...@mac-access.net Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: http://twitter.com/maciosaccess Skype: skype:mac-access-dot-net?call -- On 22 Jul 2013, at 20:10, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Thanks for your response, and I have no desire to completely jump ship to Windows. I use Windows for work and Mac for pleasure (and some work). I am a mac boy, and will just keep nagging them until they eventually listen. Tables is ok for basic stuff, but try using JAWS with Excel, it is actually very good and has some very intuitive features to enable you to get the job done much quicker. As Donal pointed out there are a number of things which can be done with Voiceover, but if you are in a hurry and need to perform tasks as quick as your sighted colleagues, then you have to use the tools which are fit for purpose. I have not looked at tables for a while and not sure if it has a jump to feature, supports VB script, Excel macros, and is able to read graphs and charts. Part of my job requires me to analyse and work with a lot of data and figures. It would be my dream to be able to ditch Windows all together. Gordon, have you taken a look at Sony's Sound Forge for the Mac yet? I believe there is a free trial available. I wonder if that might help you in anyway at all. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: HTML coding [was Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)]
in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Hi Mary, Your use-cases are very interesting and mirror mine. The reality is that sometimes having a PDF in continuous view mode and just letting voiceover read it isn't what people need. I frequently need to have Preview set to single page mode and VO, and this is not a gripe supposition or anything else, is broken in that mode. And before anyone nay-says that, Apple have confirmed and acknowledged it as the case in a response to my bug report. The key to using a mac in a fast-moving, highly business oriented environment is to rely on workarounds. Yes, as I said, a lot can be done because of very diligent users who have come up with lots of very innovative ways to work around the limitations between voiceover and Mac software. I contend that the need for so many workarounds should be diminishing and it is not. cheers, Dónal On 22 Jul 2013, at 23:13, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly call out re the Mac. There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word. Then I produce ahard copy braille document from that for use each week. I can't do that at all on the Mac. It is easy with Windows. I admit that is a specialized use case. But it does highlight some of the shortcomings that may be encounter ed by blind folks who want to produce hard copy braille and need to do so in an efficient manner. One of the things I think that some folks minimize is the difference between something that is accessible, at least in name, and something that is efficiently usable. Some of this is learning curve, to be sure. But some of it is just simple efficiency and/or ergonomics, e.g. the business with the cutting and pasting of tables between Pages and Numbers. I really hope that Mavericks sees some VO improvements and especially that the new iWork becomes as efficiently usable with VO as it is with JAWS or even NVDA. My Windows machine is close to the end of its life, and I don't want to buy another one, but given some of my use cases, I will need to do that if some stuff isn't made more efficiently usable or accessible at all with the Mac in the next several months. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware,
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
idiotic VO things that Apple obviously doesn't test. I'm sorry but you can't tell me this webspot thing was tested as anyone who used it before mountain lion would have noticed immediately in mountain lion how broken it was. Just my thoughts. On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Hopefully, this did not make the list the first time, as I might have sent it has a draft this morning before it was complete. Hi Chris, Arrogance? Where do you get that from? Maybe, it came across that way in the vehicle as text, but anyone who knows me knows I am the farthest thing from arrogant. So, if it seemed that way to you or Mary, that was not my intent and I apologize. I made some general suggestions that have served me over the years from having been on so many lists. The thing about lists is though some people subscribe to multiple lists, many are on only one. Thus, information they might offer is only seen on that list. For example, I know the area of web design and VoiceOver compatibility was discussed on another list and someone made a suggestion for an app and information on how to use it with VoiceOver. Heck if I can recall who it was, what list and the application. You also might want to you reread the tone and manner in which you have posted as well, Chris. Some of your own comments, whether intended or not, came off as rather arrogant and definitive. We often forget that our own personal experiences do not necessarily reflect those of the majority, and what we perceive as problems or shortcomings for an app or an operating system may not be by others. You and Donald, for instance, seem to have a more specialized situation than most folks and, thus, what you need and require is different than what others do. My suggestions to search other archives was not out of arrogance, but, instead, experience. As I said, a lot of the complaints I have read in this thread have been addressed in a number of work arounds and helpful suggestions. No, not all, and it doesn’t solve the overall issue head on, but as I said, just like with Windows, if there is a will, there is a way. I never inferred you or anyone else hadn't tried to do so. I was pointing out that this list is something that we all should go beyond if we can't get the answers or information from our membership, as there could be other places where it can be found. I'd say the same thing on other lists, including the one I run. . As for my own Windows experience, to address Chris's assumptions, I use Windows every day as well. I have to. I do training on that too for a specific contract, and, well, to be honest, I like to keep on top of that just for the times someone tries to imply or outright accuse me of not knowing anything about Windows to speak with any knowledge. I have a Windows 7 laptop and I still have my Win 7 desktop computers. They are kept up to date with the latest screen reader updates and Windows updates. I do, thus, know Exactly what I am talking about on that front. It also makes me very glad that I can go back to my Macs when I am done working in that operating system. It's a nice place to visit, but not a place I want to nor need to live any more. As for my training, Chris, you can ask my clients what we cover and the extent of what I do. You’d be surprised just how diverse and far I have had to go to help people and prepare myself for training situations. As a trainer, I’ve probably learned more about the Mac and Windows in the last 3 years than many users will need to know in their lives. This is not spoken out of arrogance either, but because of the reality that I Have to do so. I do not speak only from personal observations about the Mac, but from the comments and testimonials from clients. Reread my previous messages on that subject. Just as the Mac may not be the system to solve someone's work needs, I just had a situation in which Windows could not flit the tab either. It's a unique situation in that specific types of applications are being used, so the client is going to have to use both operating systems to accomplish things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:48 PM, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Mary, I totally agree with everything you have said. John, it appears you think I am being harsh an expressing an unfounded sweeping statement about Mac accessibility. My opinion is based on fact and experience. You have also assumed that I have not looked for solution either via Google or user group such as these which I think is rather arrogant. You have also admitted yourself that you do not know everything, but yet you were quick to slap me down for daring to ask more of the Mac years after they were so kind to give us a screen reader. I wonder if Photoshop users should downgrade to iPhoto, as it covers the basic right? John, how long is it since you have used Windows on a regular
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
John, Could you tell us about the email address you run and how to get on it? I love to tap multiple sources! If this information isn't appropriate for this list, could you send it to me directly? Thanks so much! Desi mailto:desiandca...@q.com On Jul 23, 2013, at 12:31 PM, John Panarese jpanar...@mac-access.net wrote: Hopefully, this did not make the list the first time, as I might have sent it has a draft this morning before it was complete. Hi Chris, Arrogance? Where do you get that from? Maybe, it came across that way in the vehicle as text, but anyone who knows me knows I am the farthest thing from arrogant. So, if it seemed that way to you or Mary, that was not my intent and I apologize. I made some general suggestions that have served me over the years from having been on so many lists. The thing about lists is though some people subscribe to multiple lists, many are on only one. Thus, information they might offer is only seen on that list. For example, I know the area of web design and VoiceOver compatibility was discussed on another list and someone made a suggestion for an app and information on how to use it with VoiceOver. Heck if I can recall who it was, what list and the application. You also might want to you reread the tone and manner in which you have posted as well, Chris. Some of your own comments, whether intended or not, came off as rather arrogant and definitive. We often forget that our own personal experiences do not necessarily reflect those of the majority, and what we perceive as problems or shortcomings for an app or an operating system may not be by others. You and Donald, for instance, seem to have a more specialized situation than most folks and, thus, what you need and require is different than what others do. My suggestions to search other archives was not out of arrogance, but, instead, experience. As I said, a lot of the complaints I have read in this thread have been addressed in a number of work arounds and helpful suggestions. No, not all, and it doesn’t solve the overall issue head on, but as I said, just like with Windows, if there is a will, there is a way. I never inferred you or anyone else hadn't tried to do so. I was pointing out that this list is something that we all should go beyond if we can't get the answers or information from our membership, as there could be other places where it can be found. I'd say the same thing on other lists, including the one I run. . As for my own Windows experience, to address Chris's assumptions, I use Windows every day as well. I have to. I do training on that too for a specific contract, and, well, to be honest, I like to keep on top of that just for the times someone tries to imply or outright accuse me of not knowing anything about Windows to speak with any knowledge. I have a Windows 7 laptop and I still have my Win 7 desktop computers. They are kept up to date with the latest screen reader updates and Windows updates. I do, thus, know Exactly what I am talking about on that front. It also makes me very glad that I can go back to my Macs when I am done working in that operating system. It's a nice place to visit, but not a place I want to nor need to live any more. As for my training, Chris, you can ask my clients what we cover and the extent of what I do. You’d be surprised just how diverse and far I have had to go to help people and prepare myself for training situations. As a trainer, I’ve probably learned more about the Mac and Windows in the last 3 years than many users will need to know in their lives. This is not spoken out of arrogance either, but because of the reality that I Have to do so. I do not speak only from personal observations about the Mac, but from the comments and testimonials from clients. Reread my previous messages on that subject. Just as the Mac may not be the system to solve someone's work needs, I just had a situation in which Windows could not flit the tab either. It's a unique situation in that specific types of applications are being used, so the client is going to have to use both operating systems to accomplish things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:48 PM, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Mary, I totally agree with everything you have said. John, it appears you think I am being harsh an expressing an unfounded sweeping statement about Mac accessibility. My opinion is based on fact and experience. You have also assumed that I have not looked for solution either via Google or user
macfortheblind resources [was Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)]
Hi Desi, I'll answer for John by pointing you to his macfortheblind.com web site that is listed in his signature. I know that we've picked up a lot of new members from folks who have visited John's web site. Specifically, if you look on his Links page of resources and mailing lists, the mac-access list and its resources may be found there, Anne's Cecimac (French mailing list) hosted by Gordon and Lynne's services, and also John's own macfortheblind list on the freelists. Here's the links page: http://macfortheblind.com/links Also, John does record a lot of useful tips and tricks from the various mailing lists on his web site. Have a look at his tips and tricks page links for Mac OS X and iOS: http://macfortheblind.com/Tips-and-Tricks It's a nice site to browse through. HTH. Cheers, Esther On Jul 23, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Desi Noller wrote: John, Could you tell us about the email address you run and how to get on it? I love to tap multiple sources! If this information isn't appropriate for this list, could you send it to me directly? Thanks so much! Desi On Jul 23, 2013, at 12:31 PM, John Panarese wrote: Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
I think it's just a matter of who you're fortunate enough to happen to deal with in either case. But let me highlight another of these unfortunate issues with Apple. About 3 years ago now, I highlighted an accessibility issue with Apple's technical people regarding an issue in their Server OS. Specifically, the inability for a VoiceOver user to import SSL certificates into the OS. I spent several hours on the phone, at my expense, discussing it with their engineers in the states. At that time, peak time phone calls to the US were quite expensive. But I considered it sufficiently important an issue to justify the expense and effort. I was promised that, when the next edition of Server was released, (that being Lion), this issue would be addressed. The release of Lion came, and I, like many other people using OS X for server-based solutions at the time, was astonished to find out that Apple had merged Server into their regular operating system, doing away with the purchase of a dedicated OS. In some ways this makes sense, as many of the functions available in the server version of OS X are actually present, but disabled, in the client OS. Many again were actually squashed out, to be fair, and I had no problem at all with the concept of a separate purchase. Anyway, Lion Server came along and with it came the self same bug that I had discussed with Apple at the time when Snow Leopard Server was current. No effort whatsoever had been made it seems to have the file boxes which were missing exposed to VoiceOver. In Mountain Lion, the server was placed in the App Store as a purchase. In fact, it is no longer part of the OS, but it is an add-on which you buy, no need for a separate OS. However, in Server version 2.0 which is the current incarnation, that very same bug which I reported directly to engineering at the time of Snow Leopard still exists today. In fact, the GUI has been stripped quite a lot. There are several functions which I cannot find a way to enable. I won't go into all of this on list because it is bound nopt to be of interest to most. But all the same, I'm disappointed that Apple seems to have totally disregarded the report of such a serious bug, and for server administrators it is a serious bug. I have an AppleCare plan on one of our Server machines. So I wrote a detailed description of the problem to Apple in the hope that somebody might listen. Sadly, I never even got a response, save the usual automated thank you response. They don't seem to see this as a serious enough issue to waste their time fixing. This really is a serious problem and I won't waste more of my time and money trying to explain it to them. I have yet to find a work-around for it and, if there is one in the OS from Terminal or somewhere, I'd very much like to know about it. I even looked at third-party server solutions which run on top of OS X. But the price of the most comprehensive of them is simply too high to justify. It's costing Lynne and I a grey deal of money to keep Mac Access going as it is. We don't mind that fact, (although a little help now and then wouldn't go unappreciated). :) Kind regards --- Gordon Smith --- gor...@mac-access.net Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: http://twitter.com/maciosaccess Skype: skype:mac-access-dot-net?call -- On 20 Jul 2013, at 19:17, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: Definitely agree, and I would hate to see them go the way of humanware, not saying that they or Apple are bad companies, but both companies responses could definitely be improved a bit. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow world views of things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
not satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow world views of things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
is a former JAWS user who was using Windows since 1994 and still uses Windows because he paid for a SMA. In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so to legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no factual or concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac has come since Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow world views of things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Gordon, I rest my case. I have reported numerous bugs to Apple over the years, and even beta tested previous OS builds. Very few of the bugs were addressed. I suppose Apple could argue that not many blind users may require administration services, probably a small audience (despite it opening the possibilities for employment). I would expect Apple to consider offering good accessibility support for iWork and Garageband / Logic etc as these are areas where you would imagine more blind users would require access to. It would not take much effort on Apple's part to improve Voiceover support. Your example with the server is a fine example. It just seems Apple do not seem to be prepared to put enough resources into accessibility, they are just happy to cover the absolute basics. How often do we write to accessibility at Apple and get fobbed off with a generic response. It is starting to become boring. Chris On 22 Jul 2013, at 18:39, Gordon Smith gor...@mac-access.net wrote: I think it's just a matter of who you're fortunate enough to happen to deal with in either case. But let me highlight another of these unfortunate issues with Apple. About 3 years ago now, I highlighted an accessibility issue with Apple's technical people regarding an issue in their Server OS. Specifically, the inability for a VoiceOver user to import SSL certificates into the OS. I spent several hours on the phone, at my expense, discussing it with their engineers in the states. At that time, peak time phone calls to the US were quite expensive. But I considered it sufficiently important an issue to justify the expense and effort. I was promised that, when the next edition of Server was released, (that being Lion), this issue would be addressed. The release of Lion came, and I, like many other people using OS X for server-based solutions at the time, was astonished to find out that Apple had merged Server into their regular operating system, doing away with the purchase of a dedicated OS. In some ways this makes sense, as many of the functions available in the server version of OS X are actually present, but disabled, in the client OS. Many again were actually squashed out, to be fair, and I had no problem at all with the concept of a separate purchase. Anyway, Lion Server came along and with it came the self same bug that I had discussed with Apple at the time when Snow Leopard Server was current. No effort whatsoever had been made it seems to have the file boxes which were missing exposed to VoiceOver. In Mountain Lion, the server was placed in the App Store as a purchase. In fact, it is no longer part of the OS, but it is an add-on which you buy, no need for a separate OS. However, in Server version 2.0 which is the current incarnation, that very same bug which I reported directly to engineering at the time of Snow Leopard still exists today. In fact, the GUI has been stripped quite a lot. There are several functions which I cannot find a way to enable. I won't go into all of this on list because it is bound nopt to be of interest to most. But all the same, I'm disappointed that Apple seems to have totally disregarded the report of such a serious bug, and for server administrators it is a serious bug. I have an AppleCare plan on one of our Server machines. So I wrote a detailed description of the problem to Apple in the hope that somebody might listen. Sadly, I never even got a response, save the usual automated thank you response. They don't seem to see this as a serious enough issue to waste their time fixing. This really is a serious problem and I won't waste more of my time and money trying to explain it to them. I have yet to find a work-around for it and, if there is one in the OS from Terminal or somewhere, I'd very much like to know about it. I even looked at third-party server solutions which run on top of OS X. But the price of the most comprehensive of them is simply too high to justify. It's costing Lynne and I a grey deal of money to keep Mac Access going as it is. We don't mind that fact, (although a little help now and then wouldn't go unappreciated). :) Kind regards --- Gordon Smith --- gor...@mac-access.net Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: http://twitter.com/maciosaccess Skype: skype:mac-access-dot-net?call -- On 20 Jul 2013, at 19:17, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: Definitely agree, and I would hate to see them go the way of humanware, not saying that they or Apple are bad companies, but both companies responses could
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Chris I agree with your comments regarding Office products and I did try to make that clear in a previous post. There are issues with VoiceOver, Pages and possibly OS X in general which I do find frustrating. Yes, I think it would be good if Apple could do something about these issues. But as you rightly say it isn't all their fault. I frequently need to use Word documents and am just beginning to have to use spreadsheets. So, why can't you use Tables for your spreadsheets? Is there some issue which Tables cannot handle either? Yes, I agree to an extent that the cry of Accessibility out of the box has to end somewhere with Apple and VoiceOver. Yes, it would be great to see PDF documents work as well under OS X as they do under Windows. As I'm sure you know there is a war going on between Apple and Adobe. From memory this started when Apple refused to permit Flash on the iOS platform. Actually I have a copy of DreamWeaver CS5.5 for Windows, and have never got it to work yet. But that's another issue. Maybe we should continue this off list. I share most of John's views regarding accessibility but I do also agree with your comments regarding the Office situation. That said, Apple could just as easily turn around and say it isn't incumbent upon them to support something which a competitor is doing just because it's widely used. Whether or not you agree with that is really not important. But Apple could opt to made a stand here and, over time, we may see a shift in the way offices work. But I think that shift is some way off as yet. However, all we can really do is encourage Apple to improve. Like many on list, I love my Macs and will never go back to Windows for most of my leisure activities with one exception, broadcasting. To my knowledge, there is no really professional product out there for Mac oS. Zulu DJ and DJay4 are more designed with club DJ's in mind than radio presenters and it really shows. There is one option in DJay4 which the authors suggest Could be used for short jingles and trails, for example. But it still doesn't cut it. you have to have an iTunes library to use either of those products, which means that you have no option but to maintain your use of iTunes. The only really professional-looking product out there for the Mac is Mebgaset Pro. But sadly, that application is, with the exception of keyboard shortcuts, totally inaccessible to VoiceOver and even it relies on your iTunes library. So sadly there is nothing out there which comes close to meeting those needs. Anyway, I take your points Chris but I urge you to stay with it, as I am convinced that change is just around the corner. As for requiring more than the basicsm, as do I. But that said, unless you pay an arm and a leg, I'm not so sure that's much more than basic editing out there for Windows either. Kind regards --- Gordon Smith --- gor...@mac-access.net Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: http://twitter.com/maciosaccess Skype: skype:mac-access-dot-net?call -- On 22 Jul 2013, at 19:38, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Apple's hardware is not for debate here, it is second to none and there is nothing on the pC side that even comes close to the Mac line in my opinion. Yes, Apple did us a huge favour in bringing build in accessibility. Does it have to end there though? The majority of falling PC sales are due to the increased interest in tablets and large screen phones. Macs still fortunately have their loyal customers, and you have to add that the Macbook Air is a wonderful laptop to own to run both Windows and OS X. We actually have those laptops to run Windows on. As an organisation we would not consider the mac for much else, as Microsoft office accessibility is just not there (and this is not solely down to Apple). Is it so wrong to expect more from Apple? we pay for the hardware and software and come on, it is 2013! Windows is fortunate to have various screen readers, the Mac only has one, so why can't it support high end products and enable more productivity? I guess I require more from my Mac, than just using Skype, Text Edit and basic audio editing. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Gordon, Thanks for your response, and I have no desire to completely jump ship to Windows. I use Windows for work and Mac for pleasure (and some work). I am a mac boy, and will just keep nagging them until they eventually listen. Tables is ok for basic stuff, but try using JAWS with Excel, it is actually very good and has some very intuitive features to enable you to get the job done much quicker. As Donal pointed out there are a number of things which can be done with Voiceover, but if you are in a hurry and need to perform tasks as quick as your sighted colleagues, then you have to use the tools which are fit for purpose. I have not looked at tables for a while and not sure if it has a jump to feature, supports VB script, Excel macros, and is able to read graphs and charts. Part of my job requires me to analyse and work with a lot of data and figures. It would be my dream to be able to ditch Windows all together. Gordon, have you taken a look at Sony's Sound Forge for the Mac yet? I believe there is a free trial available. I wonder if that might help you in anyway at all. Thanks Chris On 22 Jul 2013, at 19:58, Gordon Smith gor...@mac-access.net wrote: Chris I agree with your comments regarding Office products and I did try to make that clear in a previous post. There are issues with VoiceOver, Pages and possibly OS X in general which I do find frustrating. Yes, I think it would be good if Apple could do something about these issues. But as you rightly say it isn't all their fault. I frequently need to use Word documents and am just beginning to have to use spreadsheets. So, why can't you use Tables for your spreadsheets? Is there some issue which Tables cannot handle either? Yes, I agree to an extent that the cry of Accessibility out of the box has to end somewhere with Apple and VoiceOver. Yes, it would be great to see PDF documents work as well under OS X as they do under Windows. As I'm sure you know there is a war going on between Apple and Adobe. From memory this started when Apple refused to permit Flash on the iOS platform. Actually I have a copy of DreamWeaver CS5.5 for Windows, and have never got it to work yet. But that's another issue. Maybe we should continue this off list. I share most of John's views regarding accessibility but I do also agree with your comments regarding the Office situation. That said, Apple could just as easily turn around and say it isn't incumbent upon them to support something which a competitor is doing just because it's widely used. Whether or not you agree with that is really not important. But Apple could opt to made a stand here and, over time, we may see a shift in the way offices work. But I think that shift is some way off as yet. However, all we can really do is encourage Apple to improve. Like many on list, I love my Macs and will never go back to Windows for most of my leisure activities with one exception, broadcasting. To my knowledge, there is no really professional product out there for Mac oS. Zulu DJ and DJay4 are more designed with club DJ's in mind than radio presenters and it really shows. There is one option in DJay4 which the authors suggest Could be used for short jingles and trails, for example. But it still doesn't cut it. you have to have an iTunes library to use either of those products, which means that you have no option but to maintain your use of iTunes. The only really professional-looking product out there for the Mac is Mebgaset Pro. But sadly, that application is, with the exception of keyboard shortcuts, totally inaccessible to VoiceOver and even it relies on your iTunes library. So sadly there is nothing out there which comes close to meeting those needs. Anyway, I take your points Chris but I urge you to stay with it, as I am convinced that change is just around the corner. As for requiring more than the basicsm, as do I. But that said, unless you pay an arm and a leg, I'm not so sure that's much more than basic editing out there for Windows either. Kind regards --- Gordon Smith --- gor...@mac-access.net Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: http://twitter.com/maciosaccess Skype: skype:mac-access-dot-net?call -- On 22 Jul 2013, at 19:38, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Apple's hardware is not for debate here, it is second to none and there is nothing on the pC side that even comes close to the Mac line in my opinion. Yes, Apple did us a huge favour in bringing build in accessibility. Does it have to end there though?
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow world views of things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac
HTML coding [was Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)]
that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly call out re the Mac. There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word. Then I produce ahard copy braille document from that for use each week. I can't do that at all on the Mac. It is easy with Windows. I admit that is a specialized use case. But it does highlight some of the shortcomings that may be encounter ed by blind folks who want to produce hard copy braille and need to do so in an efficient manner. One of the things I think that some folks minimize is the difference between something that is accessible, at least in name, and something that is efficiently usable. Some of this is learning curve, to be sure. But some of it is just simple efficiency and/or ergonomics, e.g. the business with the cutting and pasting of tables between Pages and Numbers. I really hope that Mavericks sees some VO improvements and especially that the new iWork becomes as efficiently usable with VO as it is with JAWS or even NVDA. My Windows machine is close to the end of its life, and I don't want to buy another one, but given some of my use cases, I will need to do that if some stuff isn't made more efficiently usable or accessible at all with the Mac in the next several months. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Alright, I, myself, am a political science major in college. I will admit that the Mac may have some accessibility issues, but none that can't be fixed with a bit of software updating and hole patching. I understand that some users have more high-end demand, and that's fine, but what I use the Mac for, mainly PowerPoint reading in preview, which works, maybe takes a bit of fiddling with it at first but it does work, and reading PDFs and preview, which, if they're tagged properly, does work. Finally, as I've mentioned to somebody off list, I was able to Get through an online class with blackboard, which, on a separate platform, I know would not have been doable whatsoever. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly call out re the Mac. There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word. Then I produce ahard copy braille document from that for use each week. I can't do that at all on the Mac. It is easy with Windows. I admit that is a specialized use case. But it does highlight some of the shortcomings that may be encount er ed by blind folks who want to produce hard copy braille and need to do so in an efficient manner. One of the things I think that some folks minimize is the difference between something that is accessible, at least in name, and something that is efficiently usable. Some of this is learning curve, to be sure. But some of it is just simple efficiency and/or ergonomics, e.g. the business with the cutting and pasting of tables between Pages and Numbers. I really hope that Mavericks sees some VO improvements and especially that the new iWork becomes as efficiently usable with VO as it is with JAWS or even NVDA. My Windows machine is close to the end of its life, and I don't want to buy another one, but given some of my use cases, I will need to do that if some stuff isn't made more efficiently usable or accessible at all with the Mac in the next several months. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Josh, I'm sorry, but how do you read tables in pdf documents and how do you deal with those pdf documents you receive which are image onkly? The problem with expecting pdf docs to be properly tagged is that the huge majority of them are not, because people don't know anything about tagging pdf documents. If you get good results with preview and pdf, more power to you. My results have been so bad that I have, honestly, just given up on it. I've had some luck with iBooks on my phone and pdf. But I need to interact with pdf docs, copy and paste from them and access the tables that show up in them from time to time. Can't do that with the Mac. And that is pretty basic. Given that the cost of Mac hardware far outstrips the cost of Windows hardware, even though there is some merit in the saying that you get what you pay for, I'm not amused at all that a hissing war between Adobe and Apple results in the sub-par accessibility we have for pdf files on the Mac. Hoping for better things in t he coming os upgrade. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
To be completely honest Mary, I've never had to deal with any of those things as of yet. This, if anything, is the reason why I'm looking to get a secondhand computer with another operating system. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: Josh, I'm sorry, but how do you read tables in pdf documents and how do you deal with those pdf documents you receive which are image onkly? The problem with expecting pdf docs to be properly tagged is that the huge majority of them are not, because people don't know anything about tagging pdf documents. If you get good results with preview and pdf, more power to you. My results have been so bad that I have, honestly, just given up on it. I've had some luck with iBooks on my phone and pdf. But I need to interact with pdf docs, copy and paste from them and access the tables that show up in them from time to time. Can't do that with the Mac. And that is pretty basic. Given that the cost of Mac hardware far outstrips the cost of Windows hardware, even though there is some merit in the saying that you get what you pay for, I'm not amused at all that a hissing war between Adobe and Apple results in the sub-par accessibility we have for pdf files on the Mac. Hoping for better things in t he coming os upgrade. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Actually for me black board is usable, unless you want to view an attachment sent by a professor. That might have changed, but my university I think is still using black board from 2009. I can use it fine with firefox and another OS and it is totally usable so there again is a difference of equipment but this time on the university side of things. OH btw black board works a lot better w chrome. Tc. On Jul 22, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, I, myself, am a political science major in college. I will admit that the Mac may have some accessibility issues, but none that can't be fixed with a bit of software updating and hole patching. I understand that some users have more high-end demand, and that's fine, but what I use the Mac for, mainly PowerPoint reading in preview, which works, maybe takes a bit of fiddling with it at first but it does work, and reading PDFs and preview, which, if they're tagged properly, does work. Finally, as I've mentioned to somebody off list, I was able to Get through an online class with blackboard, which, on a separate platform, I know would not have been doable whatsoever. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly call out re the Mac. There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word. Then I produce ahard copy braille document from that for use each week. I can't do that at all on the Mac. It is easy with Windows. I admit that is a specialized use case. But it does highlight some of the shortcomings that may be encoun t er ed by blind folks who want to produce hard copy braille and need to do so in an efficient manner. One of the things I think that some folks minimize is the difference between something that is accessible, at least in name, and something that is efficiently usable. Some of this is learning curve, to be sure. But some of it is just simple efficiency and/or ergonomics, e.g. the business with the cutting and pasting of tables between Pages and Numbers. I really hope that Mavericks sees some VO improvements and especially that the new iWork becomes as efficiently usable with VO as it is with JAWS or even NVDA. My Windows machine is close to the end of its life, and I don't want to buy another one, but given some of my use cases, I will need to do that if some stuff isn't made more efficiently usable or accessible at all with the Mac in the next several months. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive:
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
The way to deal with image only pdfs is to use a service I I found at http://www.onlineocr.net You can find my youtube video I did here. In fact the devs loved the thing so much I got some free creds. lol! And normally my videos suck. lol! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgFyG6LciRs Tc all.On Jul 22, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: Josh, I'm sorry, but how do you read tables in pdf documents and how do you deal with those pdf documents you receive which are image onkly? The problem with expecting pdf docs to be properly tagged is that the huge majority of them are not, because people don't know anything about tagging pdf documents. If you get good results with preview and pdf, more power to you. My results have been so bad that I have, honestly, just given up on it. I've had some luck with iBooks on my phone and pdf. But I need to interact with pdf docs, copy and paste from them and access the tables that show up in them from time to time. Can't do that with the Mac. And that is pretty basic. Given that the cost of Mac hardware far outstrips the cost of Windows hardware, even though there is some merit in the saying that you get what you pay for, I'm not amused at all that a hissing war between Adobe and Apple results in the sub-par accessibility we have for pdf files on the Mac. Hoping for better things in t he coming os upgrade. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Right, my community college where I attend college is using version nine something. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 8:24 PM, Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com wrote: Actually for me black board is usable, unless you want to view an attachment sent by a professor. That might have changed, but my university I think is still using black board from 2009. I can use it fine with firefox and another OS and it is totally usable so there again is a difference of equipment but this time on the university side of things. OH btw black board works a lot better w chrome. Tc. On Jul 22, 2013, at 3:52 PM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, I, myself, am a political science major in college. I will admit that the Mac may have some accessibility issues, but none that can't be fixed with a bit of software updating and hole patching. I understand that some users have more high-end demand, and that's fine, but what I use the Mac for, mainly PowerPoint reading in preview, which works, maybe takes a bit of fiddling with it at first but it does work, and reading PDFs and preview, which, if they're tagged properly, does work. Finally, as I've mentioned to somebody off list, I was able to Get through an online class with blackboard, which, on a separate platform, I know would not have been doable whatsoever. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly call out re the Mac. There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word. Then I produce ahard copy braille document from that for use each week. I can't do that at all on the Mac. It is easy with Windows. I admit that is a specialized use case. But it does highlight some of the shortcomings that may be encou n t er ed by blind folks who want to produce hard copy braille and need to do so in an efficient manner. One of the things I think that some folks minimize is the difference between something that is accessible, at least in name, and something that is efficiently usable. Some of this is learning curve, to be sure. But some of it is just simple efficiency and/or ergonomics, e.g. the business with the cutting and pasting of tables between Pages and Numbers. I really hope that Mavericks sees some VO improvements and especially that the new iWork becomes as efficiently usable with VO as it is with JAWS or even NVDA. My Windows machine is close to the end of its life, and I don't want to buy another one, but given some of my use cases, I will need to do that if some stuff isn't made more efficiently usable or accessible at all with the Mac in the next several months. Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Actually, you can also deal with an image only pdf with docuscan plus, which I have. But there is no way to clean up errors, except laboriously by hand, which is a time suck, and then when I'm done, I have an html document, which I guess is ok unless I want to interact and copy bits and pieces, but would probably work well for many folks. Does this app you're talking about offer any sort of means of automating corrections like you can do with k1000 on the Windows side? Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
You can save it as word, rtf and other formats and it works well. Iused it to read articles sent to me by my prof. Passed the class to. and the service was almost flawless. Listen to the video. I think I showed a pdf image thing on there. Tc all. On Jul 22, 2013, at 5:38 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, you can also deal with an image only pdf with docuscan plus, which I have. But there is no way to clean up errors, except laboriously by hand, which is a time suck, and then when I'm done, I have an html document, which I guess is ok unless I want to interact and copy bits and pieces, but would probably work well for many folks. Does this app you're talking about offer any sort of means of automating corrections like you can do with k1000 on the Windows side? Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Hi Mary, Here is the problem. Firstly, having been on email lists for years, these types of discussions come up, people make suggestions and find solutions, and the subject is lost. Being that I am on so many lists, I have no idea who said what and where. My point is, a lot of what people report or even complain about is either subjective or they may not be aware of solutions that others have found. For example, with PDFs. I don’t have the problems you seem to have and I know of two clients who extensively have to access PDF documents for their work. They use Skim to do so. I am fine with Preview. No, Preview will not deal with an image PDF. You need to OCR that first as there is no text VoiceOver can read. As for word processors and such, again, I have seen at least a half dozen, if not more suggestions offered by people on lists and step by step instructions how to deal with a variety of issues people find themselves facing. Unfortunately, when you go through 500 emails a day on average, it doesn’t always stick with me. Sometimes, I manage to jot down notes or grab a message for future reference, but of late, that has become more and more difficult for me, as I just don’t have time. I know the problem of MS word formatting and compatibility , accessing tables and a variety of other matters have been addressed here and in other places. My overall point is instead of tossing out general statements about ones perceived notions of what can or can’t be done, do a little foot work and research on this list’s archives and the other lists out there. I am far from the be all and end all to knowing every accessible application or work around for a situation, and I spend a lot of time having to find information for others. It’s out there. You just have to be willing to look. Considering that the vast majority of us have come from Windows, we should be used to having to sometimes think outside the box for solutions. Accessibility is far from perfect on the Mac and I also said initially that I can list my gripes just like anyone else, but I don’t find it necessary to present those gripes in broad strokes nor make dramatic statements about Apple’s accessibility efforts when I have benefited from those efforts over the last 9 years and no how far VoiceOver has come compared to my old iBook running Tiger or my original Mac Book running Snow Leopard. As I initially said, for every problem one can toss out in regard to the Mac and VoiceOver, someone else can probably toss out three times as many with JAWS, Windows Eys, NVDA or any Windows screen reader. No solution is perfect, but I have found, in my own personal experience, and in training clients on the Mac for 3 years, that switchers find their Mac experience so much better than Windows and I have yet to encounter a client who has told me they can’t do something on the Mac that they can do on Windows with the exception of a few minor specialty apps and games. Then again, I have had more clients tell me that they have been able to find more solutions on the Mac for things they couldn’t do in Windows. However, this discussion, I think, is running its course, and I personally have spent too much time addressing it at this point. My apologies to Gordon and Lynne for the diversion. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Mary, I totally agree with everything you have said. John, it appears you think I am being harsh an expressing an unfounded sweeping statement about Mac accessibility. My opinion is based on fact and experience. You have also assumed that I have not looked for solution either via Google or user group such as these which I think is rather arrogant. You have also admitted yourself that you do not know everything, but yet you were quick to slap me down for daring to ask more of the Mac years after they were so kind to give us a screen reader. I wonder if Photoshop users should downgrade to iPhoto, as it covers the basic right? John, how long is it since you have used Windows on a regular basis with up to date software? Yes, the Mac has improved since Tiger, but so has the scene on Windows and if u were able to put your feet in both camps you would understand where many of us advanced users require more than just editing RTF files, reading emails and using the read all command on a PDF. You would be able to appreciate how some tasks are much superior on Windows. This is partially due to competition between various screen reader vendors on Windows and the fact that bugs fixes and updates appear more regularly to the screen readers in comparison to the Mac. Talkback on Android also benefits from this approach. I can only assume you do not require the ability to create tables in documents, track changes and share documents, work with tagged PDF documents and be able to use their various elements. To be fair, Preview was only ever designed to.. well 'preview' I guess! So I suppose we can let Apple off for not including structured elements. I guess Adobe Reader should fill the gap here, as they have proven they can develop accessible software such as their e-book reading solution.. It is not all bad though, as I do like the way Voiceover announces that a word has been spelt incorrectly after hitting the spacebar. The equivalent on Windows is F7 which still does not check spelling as you type, despite sighted users getting this information live as a red underline appears to indicate an error. There is no way I would recommend any professional using Windows to switch to the Mac at this stage. I am not sure exactly what your training programme covers or what you use your Mac for on a daily basis. I am glad it meets your needs and I wonder if you ever did move back to Windows if you would be more at home with Dolphin's Guides software. Right, I am going to try and go back to sleep if the thunder and lightning allows me. Take care Chris On 22 Jul 2013, at 23:13, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote: John, Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't read tables in pdf documents is a serious drawback. I know there are work arounds involving the use of Pages with tables and numbers, but again, cutting and pasting back and forth just to do something that ought to be done within a single app is not the same level of usability as you get with a good Windows screen reader. If Apple fixes this issue with the next release of iWork, which ought to be coming soon, then good for them. In the mean time, I don't see how you can say Mac is just as good as Windows for folks who need to do a lot of table reading and editing, or document changes tracking, which is working in MS Word for Windows with screen reader but not with VO and Pages. You made a statement that a lot of folks who criticize Apple accessibility as compared with Windows don't have sufficient knowledge of Mac usage to make such a statement. I would argue that the opposite is also true. I've seen statements from people who admit to not having used Windows ever or to not having used it in years, but they nonetheless feel justified in making statements that are as exaggerated about Windows as the ones you rightly call out re the Mac. There are plenty of things I like about the MacMy other complaint about use of the Mac, which isn't an Apple issue but does affect the usability of the system is the problem producing braille. I understand that there is a Duxbury product in the works for the Mac, although it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, given the state of inaccessibilitry of MS Word and uncertainty about whether Dux will be able to tightly integrate with the new iWork, as it does in Windows with Word. I have a use case involving the receipt of pdf documents that are both text and pictures. I have to integrate these by running ocr on the image only document, then pasting that in between sections of the text-based pdf that have been pasted in to Word. Then I produce ahard copy braille document from
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
know blind people productively using the Mac every day for their work, and I can give you several testimonials from former Windows users who will flat out tell you that Mac accessibility is superior to that in Windows hands down. I just had this conversation with a client who is a former JAWS user who was using Windows since 1994 and still uses Windows because he paid for a SMA. In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so to legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no factual or concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac has come since Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. We can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow world views of things. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, j...@macfortheblind.com Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view
State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Hey All, Funny as the message you got from Apple on Logic is the same exact response I have gotten for years from Apple about the awful accessibility of Numbers which I now no longer use. I got blasted on this list for listing several issues with mountain lion and voiceover when it came out. One of the biggest being how they reversed webspots in safari. How in the world could this not have been noticed if they are actually testing accessibility? In Lion you would hit VO command right bracket and you could go down down a page to the next webspot, not in Mountain Lion they reversed it which makes no sense as you click VO command right bracket and instead of going down and to the right, right bracket takes you to the left, and left bracket takes you to the right. Ok, simple enough to fix I assumed, and assumed in the next mountain lion update it would be corrected. Nope, they never fixed what seemed to me to probably be one of the easiest things to fix. There have been virtually zero improvements to VO in any mountain lion updates. I will continue using my mac, and do love my mac, but have been very disappointed with VO improvements in mountain lion, and will be hesitant to upgrade to maverick as I am worried or concerned about more idiotic VO things that Apple obviously doesn't test. I'm sorry but you can't tell me this webspot thing was tested as anyone who used it before mountain lion would have noticed immediately in mountain lion how broken it was. Just my thoughts. On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
Definitely agree, and I would hate to see them go the way of humanware, not saying that they or Apple are bad companies, but both companies responses could definitely be improved a bit. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 20, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Brian Fischler blindga...@gmail.com wrote: Hey All, Funny as the message you got from Apple on Logic is the same exact response I have gotten for years from Apple about the awful accessibility of Numbers which I now no longer use. I got blasted on this list for listing several issues with mountain lion and voiceover when it came out. One of the biggest being how they reversed webspots in safari. How in the world could this not have been noticed if they are actually testing accessibility? In Lion you would hit VO command right bracket and you could go down down a page to the next webspot, not in Mountain Lion they reversed it which makes no sense as you click VO command right bracket and instead of going down and to the right, right bracket takes you to the left, and left bracket takes you to the right. Ok, simple enough to fix I assumed, and assumed in the next mountain lion update it would be corrected. Nope, they never fixed what seemed to me to probably be one of the easiest things to fix. There have been virtually zero improvements to VO in any mountain lion updates. I will continue using my mac, and do love my mac, but have been very disappointed with VO improvements in mountain lion, and will be hesitant to upgrade to maverick as I am worried or concerned about more idiotic VO things that Apple obviously doesn't test. I'm sorry but you can't tell me this webspot thing was tested as anyone who used it before mountain lion would have noticed immediately in mountain lion how broken it was. Just my thoughts. On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail
Re: State of Apple Accessibility (was: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino)
APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs to have gone away. Neither happens. Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this stage. Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore moor...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for the blind. I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each time a new OS comes out. We need to keep making a noise and more of it. Chris On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Chris, Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as it's going to get. Cheers, Dónal On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, Chris Gilland ch...@clgproductions.com wrote: And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino
This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino
It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino
Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino
I agree. I'm pretty much at the point where frankly, I've given up on ever e-mailing Apple Accessibility. It just never seems to be any use. chris. - Original Message - From: Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:45 AM Subject: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino
And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! Chris. - Original Message - From: Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility mac-access@mac-access.net Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory joshkar...@gmail.com wrote: This reminds me of humanware, LOL. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: Does my sarcasm come across? Dónal (message starts) Hello, Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this goal. Apple Accessibility (message ends) Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find
Re: Logic Pro X Accessibility
Hi Lynne, *smile* I asked exactly the same question last night. thus far no responses. I'd buy it for testing purposes, but at €179 it could prove an expensive mistake. Dónal On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:27, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith ly...@mac-access.net wrote: Hello everybody Does anybody know whether the new version of Logic Pro X is accessible? I see it is in the App store, and I'm wondering whether we'd get better results with an editor like that which is designed for the type of work Gordon wants to do. Thoughts, please? Warm regards Lynne --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
RE: Logic Pro X Accessibility
What version of logic are you referring to? -Original Message- From: mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net [mailto:mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net] On Behalf Of Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:27 AM To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility Subject: Logic Pro X Accessibility Hello everybody Does anybody know whether the new version of Logic Pro X is accessible? I see it is in the App store, and I'm wondering whether we'd get better results with an editor like that which is designed for the type of work Gordon wants to do. Thoughts, please? Warm regards Lynne --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Logic Pro X Accessibility
Hello everybody Does anybody know whether the new version of Logic Pro X is accessible? I see it is in the App store, and I'm wondering whether we'd get better results with an editor like that which is designed for the type of work Gordon wants to do. Thoughts, please? Warm regards Lynne --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X Accessibility
the new one that is just out. On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:45, Isaac isaac.heb...@gmail.com wrote: What version of logic are you referring to? -Original Message- From: mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net [mailto:mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net] On Behalf Of Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:27 AM To: Mac OSX iOS Accessibility Subject: Logic Pro X Accessibility Hello everybody Does anybody know whether the new version of Logic Pro X is accessible? I see it is in the App store, and I'm wondering whether we'd get better results with an editor like that which is designed for the type of work Gordon wants to do. Thoughts, please? Warm regards Lynne --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X Accessibility
Hello Donal My only excuse here is that we are just catching up on mail. If nobody else has tested this, I will and let you know. Lynne On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:30, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Hi Lynne, *smile* I asked exactly the same question last night. thus far no responses. I'd buy it for testing purposes, but at €179 it could prove an expensive mistake. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X Accessibility
I'm referring to the brand new version just released. Lynne On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:45, Isaac isaac.heb...@gmail.com wrote: What version of logic are you referring to? --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X Accessibility
Thank you Lynne. I've asked Apple Accessibility for information but I suspect my mail, like most of the mails I send to apple Accessibility, will disappear into the black hole of Cupertino! Cheers, Dónal On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:50, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith ly...@mac-access.net wrote: Hello Donal My only excuse here is that we are just catching up on mail. If nobody else has tested this, I will and let you know. Lynne On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:30, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Hi Lynne, *smile* I asked exactly the same question last night. thus far no responses. I'd buy it for testing purposes, but at €179 it could prove an expensive mistake. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Logic Pro X Accessibility
We will report back shortly. Kind regards --- Gordon Smith --- gor...@mac-access.net Telephone: United Kingdom: Free Phone: 0800 8620538 Mobile: +44 7907 823971 Europe and other non-specified: +44 1642 688095 United States Of America And Canada: +1 646 9151493 Or: +1 209 436 9443 Vic. Australia: +61 38 8205930 Vic. Australia +61 39 0284505 Fax: +44 1642 365123 Follow Us On Twitter: http://twitter.com/maciosaccess Skype: skype:mac-access-dot-net?call -- On 17 Jul 2013, at 17:02, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Thank you Lynne. I've asked Apple Accessibility for information but I suspect my mail, like most of the mails I send to apple Accessibility, will disappear into the black hole of Cupertino! Cheers, Dónal On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:50, Mrs. Lynnette Annabel Smith ly...@mac-access.net wrote: Hello Donal My only excuse here is that we are just catching up on mail. If nobody else has tested this, I will and let you know. Lynne On 17 Jul 2013, at 16:30, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote: Hi Lynne, *smile* I asked exactly the same question last night. thus far no responses. I'd buy it for testing purposes, but at €179 it could prove an expensive mistake. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, School of Computing, Dublin City University, Glasnevin, Dublin 9, Ireland Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie Email Disclaimer This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html or at the public Mail Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own
