Should I delay buying I-Mac
The torrent of issues with Lion reported on this list over the last few days has slightly shaken my confidence in the Mac. I was going to order my I Mac today. I do not think I will be doing so now. Certainly mails with subjects like Shame on you Apple are food for thought. Now it seems sensible to hold on any order until at least some of these issues are resolved. The issues about difficulties with Mail and Safari web browsing and RSS are particularly worrying . These are core basic functions I need an accessible computer to work well with. Certainly for the money Apple are asking me for. It will be a challenge getting to grips with a new system anyway without also having to grapple with accessibility bugs at the same time. It will also be annoying if the first thing I have to do is apply corrective upgrades and patches. Ideally you should be able to return to the original install confident everything works well. This is disappointing as part of my reason for moving to the Mac was the belief that it had in built in accessibility upgrades. Now it seems upgrades include risks of accessibility lock out just as much as evident on Windows machines over the years. Any comments __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6339 (20110731) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac
David The issues only really affect Lion Server, not the regular edition that you'd get. Don't be put off by the pessimists. Those who can't get it working and so, unreservedly, just condemn. I'm having horrendous problems with Lion Server; but let me tell you that there's far more that's right about Lion than wrong. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 07:37, David Griffith wrote: The torrent of issues with Lion reported on this list over the last few days has slightly shaken my confidence in the Mac. I was going to order my I Mac today. I do not think I will be doing so now. Certainly mails with subjects like Shame on you Apple are food for thought. Now it seems sensible to hold on any order until at least some of these issues are resolved. The issues about difficulties with Mail and Safari web browsing and RSS are particularly worrying . These are core basic functions I need an accessible computer to work well with. Certainly for the money Apple are asking me for. It will be a challenge getting to grips with a new system anyway without also having to grapple with accessibility bugs at the same time. It will also be annoying if the first thing I have to do is apply corrective upgrades and patches. Ideally you should be able to return to the original install confident everything works well. This is disappointing as part of my reason for moving to the Mac was the belief that it had in built in accessibility upgrades. Now it seems upgrades include risks of accessibility lock out just as much as evident on Windows machines over the years. Any comments __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6339 (20110731) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac
Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari bugs were also due to the Webkit engine Safari used to render HTML content, and updating this fixed a lot of issues and this still seems to be the case under OS X Lion. While the regular OS X Lion does have bugs, they're not as bad as they seem. Of course, depending on what you may consider a showstopper they may be quite numerous, but if you're not too worried about using possible workarounds until a bug is addressed, I think you'll be fine. I tend to nitpick often when using an operating system, and Mac OS X is also one of them, so I sometimes get very critical. However, a bug such as VoiceOver not always being able to detect web elements when using commands to jump to them has a workaround, and is also investigation. That is one important thing to understand. As Lynne pointed out in an earlier email, if a bug is not addressed straight away it is probably under investigation. Even if a bug sounds very simple to fix, that does not mean that it is necessarily a simple cause or solution. While Apple does have a devoted accessibility team, that doesn't mean that the fix will be included in the latest update depending on whether or not they can manage to squeeze it into the update. Every time someone buys a Mac, I always recommend trying one if you have a friend who owns a Mac, or simply go to the store. While you won't exactly get a perfect picture in most cases, you may be able to find out if you want to actually try to get to grips with VoiceOver. I wish you luck, in any case. Regards, Nic On Aug 1, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Gordon Smith wrote: David The issues only really affect Lion Server, not the regular edition that you'd get. Don't be put off by the pessimists. Those who can't get it working and so, unreservedly, just condemn. I'm having horrendous problems with Lion Server; but let me tell you that there's far more that's right about Lion than wrong. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 07:37, David Griffith wrote: The torrent of issues with Lion reported on this list over the last few days has slightly shaken my confidence in the Mac. I was going to order my I Mac today. I do not think I will be doing so now. Certainly mails with subjects like Shame on you Apple are food for thought. Now it seems sensible to hold on any order until at least some of these issues are resolved. The issues about difficulties with Mail and Safari web browsing and RSS are particularly worrying . These are core basic functions I need an accessible computer to work well with. Certainly for the money Apple are asking me for. It will be a challenge getting to grips with a new system anyway without also having to grapple with accessibility bugs at the same time. It will also be annoying if the first thing I have to do is apply corrective upgrades and patches. Ideally you should be able to return to the original install confident everything works well. This is disappointing as part of my reason for moving to the Mac was the belief that it had in built in accessibility upgrades. Now it seems upgrades include risks of accessibility lock out just as much as evident on Windows machines over the years. Any comments __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6339 (20110731) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please
Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac
Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari bugs were also due to the Webkit engine Safari used to render HTML content, and updating this fixed a lot of issues and this still seems to be the case under OS X Lion. While the regular OS X Lion does have bugs, they're not as bad as they seem. Of course, depending on what you may consider a showstopper they may be quite numerous, but if you're not too worried about using possible workarounds until a bug is addressed, I think you'll be fine. I tend to nitpick often when using an operating system, and Mac OS X is also one of them, so I sometimes get very critical. However, a bug such as VoiceOver not always being able to detect web elements when using commands to jump to them has a workaround, and is also investigation. That is one important thing to understand. As Lynne pointed out in an earlier email, if a bug is not addressed straight away it is probably under investigation. Even if a bug sounds very simple to fix, that does not mean that it is necessarily a simple cause or solution. While Apple does have a devoted accessibility team, that doesn't mean that the fix will be included in the latest update depending on whether or not they can manage to squeeze it into the update. Every time someone buys a Mac, I always recommend trying one if you have a friend who owns a Mac, or simply go to the store. While you won't exactly get a perfect picture in most cases, you may be able to find out if you want to actually try to get to grips with VoiceOver. I wish you luck, in any case. Regards, Nic On Aug 1, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Gordon Smith wrote: David The issues only really affect Lion Server, not the regular edition that you'd get. Don't be put off by the pessimists. Those who can't get it working and so, unreservedly, just condemn. I'm having horrendous problems with Lion Server; but let me tell you that there's far more that's right about Lion than wrong. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 07:37, David Griffith wrote: The torrent of issues with Lion reported on this list over the last few days has slightly shaken my confidence in the Mac. I was going to order my I Mac today. I do not think I will be doing so now. Certainly mails with subjects like Shame on you Apple are food for thought. Now it seems sensible to hold on any order until at least some of these issues are resolved. The issues about difficulties with Mail and Safari web browsing and RSS are particularly worrying . These are core basic functions I need an accessible computer to work well with. Certainly for the money Apple are asking me for. It will be a challenge getting to grips with a new system anyway without also having to grapple with accessibility bugs at the same time. It will also be annoying if the first thing I have to do is apply corrective upgrades and patches. Ideally you should be able to return to the original install confident everything works well. This is disappointing as part of my reason for moving to the Mac was the belief that it had in built in accessibility upgrades. Now it seems upgrades include risks of accessibility
Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac
Hi Donal This has been bugged with Apple and will be fixed. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:57, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari bugs were also due to the Webkit engine Safari used to render HTML content, and updating this fixed a lot of issues and this still seems to be the case under OS X Lion. While the regular OS X Lion does have bugs, they're not as bad as they seem. Of course, depending on what you may consider a showstopper they may be quite numerous, but if you're not too worried about using possible workarounds until a bug is addressed, I think you'll be fine. I tend to nitpick often when using an operating system, and Mac OS X is also one of them, so I sometimes get very critical. However, a bug such as VoiceOver not always being able to detect web elements when using commands to jump to them has a workaround, and is also investigation. That is one important thing to understand. As Lynne pointed out in an earlier email, if a bug is not addressed straight away it is probably under investigation. Even if a bug sounds very simple to fix, that does not mean that it is necessarily a simple cause or solution. While Apple does have a devoted accessibility team, that doesn't mean that the fix will be included in the latest update depending on whether or not they can manage to squeeze it into the update. Every time someone buys a Mac, I always recommend trying one if you have a friend who owns a Mac, or simply go to the store. While you won't exactly get a perfect picture in most cases, you may be able to find out if you want to actually try to get to grips with VoiceOver. I wish you luck, in any case. Regards, Nic On Aug 1, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Gordon Smith wrote: David The issues only really affect Lion Server, not the regular edition that you'd get. Don't be put off by the pessimists. Those who can't get it working and so, unreservedly, just condemn. I'm having horrendous problems with Lion Server; but let me tell you that there's far more that's right about Lion than wrong. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 07:37, David Griffith wrote: The torrent of issues with Lion reported on this list over the last few days has slightly shaken my confidence in the Mac. I was going to order my I Mac today. I do not think I will be doing so now. Certainly mails with subjects like Shame on you Apple are food for thought. Now it seems sensible to hold on any order until at least some of these issues are resolved. The issues about difficulties with Mail and Safari web browsing and RSS are particularly worrying . These are core basic functions I need an accessible computer to work well with. Certainly for the money Apple are asking me for. It will be a challenge getting to grips with a new system anyway without also having to grapple with accessibility bugs at the same time. It will also be annoying if the first thing I have to do is apply corrective upgrades and patches. Ideally you should be able to return to the original install confident everything works well. This is disappointing as part of my reason for moving to the Mac
Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac
Hi! Yeah, I ended up bugging this the first time I saw this. I'm glad we can all collaborate and fix bugs, especially something as minor as this one. It's a bit strange that this wasn't even considered, since we've even been asking for sounds when a download completes. Regards, Nic On Aug 1, 2011, at 2:03 PM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Yes indeed Gordon, And thanks for doing so. On 1 Aug 2011, at 13:01, Gordon Smith wrote: Hi Donal This has been bugged with Apple and will be fixed. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:57, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari bugs were also due to the Webkit engine Safari used to render HTML content, and updating this fixed a lot of issues and this still seems to be the case under OS X Lion. While the regular OS X Lion does have bugs, they're not as bad as they seem. Of course, depending on what you may consider a showstopper they may be quite numerous, but if you're not too worried about using possible workarounds until a bug is addressed, I think you'll be fine. I tend to nitpick often when using an operating system, and Mac OS X is also one of them, so I sometimes get very critical. However, a bug such as VoiceOver not always being able to detect web elements when using commands to jump to them has a workaround, and is also investigation. That is one important thing to understand. As Lynne pointed out in an earlier email, if a bug is not addressed straight away it is probably under investigation. Even if a bug sounds very simple to fix, that does not mean that it is necessarily a simple cause or solution. While Apple does have a devoted accessibility team, that doesn't mean that the fix will be included in the latest update depending on whether or not they can manage to squeeze it into the update. Every time someone buys a Mac, I always recommend trying one if you have a friend who owns a Mac, or simply go to the store. While you won't exactly get a perfect picture in most cases, you may be able to find out if you want to actually try to get to grips with VoiceOver. I wish you luck, in any case. Regards, Nic On Aug 1, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Gordon Smith wrote: David The issues only really affect Lion Server, not the regular edition that you'd get. Don't be put off by the pessimists. Those who can't get it working and so, unreservedly, just condemn. I'm having horrendous problems with Lion Server; but let me tell you that there's far more that's right about Lion than wrong. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 07:37, David Griffith wrote: The torrent of issues with Lion reported on this list over the last few days has slightly shaken my confidence in the Mac. I was going to order my I Mac today. I do not think I will be doing so now. Certainly mails with subjects like Shame on you Apple are food for thought. Now it seems sensible to hold on any order until at least some of these issues are resolved. The issues about difficulties with Mail and Safari web browsing and RSS are particularly worrying . These are core basic functions I need an accessible computer to
Download status with VoiceOver [was Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac]
Hello Dónal, I assume that you and Chris are referring to the lack of an automatic announcement on the start (and progress) of a download. It has always been possible to get information on the progress of a download with VoiceOver by interacting with the group in the Downloads window of Safari, all the way back since VoiceOver was first implemented in Tiger. For small files, the download can be complete before you even switch to the window, but for large files you can get a report on progress, size, and estimated time to completion. You can also stop the download. And on another related issue, I understand that all of Gordon's discussions have been on the updated Mac OS X Server interface changes in Lion (not specifically VoiceOver accessibility). I know why Gordon needs to run full server operations. However, in the earlier thread and posts from Jim about wanting to install Mac OS X Server onto his Mac Mini, I never understood whether he really needed Mac OS X Server, because quite a lot of the software many people associate with server operations are built into every Mac. Cheers, Esther Cheers, Esther On Aug 1, 2011, at 01:57, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari bugs were also due to the Webkit engine Safari used to render HTML content, and updating this fixed a lot of issues and this still seems to be the case under OS X Lion. While the regular OS X Lion does have bugs, they're not as bad as they seem. Of course, depending on what you may consider a showstopper they may be quite numerous, but if you're not too worried about using possible workarounds until a bug is addressed, I think you'll be fine. I tend to nitpick often when using an operating system, and Mac OS X is also one of them, so I sometimes get very critical. However, a bug such as VoiceOver not always being able to detect web elements when using commands to jump to them has a workaround, and is also investigation. That is one important thing to understand. As Lynne pointed out in an earlier email, if a bug is not addressed straight away it is probably under investigation. Even if a bug sounds very simple to fix, that does not mean that it is necessarily a simple cause or solution. While Apple does have a devoted accessibility team, that doesn't mean that the fix will be included in the latest update depending on whether or not they can manage to squeeze it into the update. Every time someone buys a Mac, I always recommend trying one if you have a friend who owns a Mac, or simply go to the store. While you won't exactly get a perfect picture in most cases, you may be able to find out if you want to actually try to get to grips with VoiceOver. I wish you luck, in any case. Regards, Nic --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
Re: Download status with VoiceOver [was Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac]
Hi gordon, For the record, Cups is hardly new or unique to Apple. Linux and Unix systems have had it for years, and in fact OS X has as well, just somewhat disguised. It has always been possible to connect to a specific port on your macs and access Cups's web interface. Cheers, Zack. On Aug 1, 2011, at 6:12 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: Hi Esther The situation has changed radically with Lion. In Jim's case, he has the hardware which comes with OS X Server pre-installed, I believe. This hardware is customised for OSX Server and cannot run anything else. It won't boot from a DVD or pen drive, as I understand it. Jim, I believe, wanted the twin HD and the I7 processor, but doesn't need the server stuff. Actually it's my experience that the server software would impede the regular use of applications in some situations because it requires specific configuration data to be present. My understanding is that you can't install the regular version of Lion on this hardware platform. As for the downloads, I'm not sure whether you're using Lion yet. But this has also changed. There is no longer a download window to interact with. So you need to press the Download button on the Safari toolbar before you get any interaction with the downloads. In our case, you're correct that we need full server-side functionality. Jim probably wasn't aware of the situation with the Mac Mini Server before he bought it, and that's entirely understandable. Lion Server is grossly different in many respects from earlier versions. For a start, Print Services, Quicktime Streaming and MYSQL service are not supported any longer. Print Services has been replaced by what a Apple calls Cups and the rest has been dropped completely. Why they opted to drop MYSQL I'm not entirely sure, but they have. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 13:51, Esther wrote: Hello Dónal, I assume that you and Chris are referring to the lack of an automatic announcement on the start (and progress) of a download. It has always been possible to get information on the progress of a download with VoiceOver by interacting with the group in the Downloads window of Safari, all the way back since VoiceOver was first implemented in Tiger. For small files, the download can be complete before you even switch to the window, but for large files you can get a report on progress, size, and estimated time to completion. You can also stop the download. And on another related issue, I understand that all of Gordon's discussions have been on the updated Mac OS X Server interface changes in Lion (not specifically VoiceOver accessibility). I know why Gordon needs to run full server operations. However, in the earlier thread and posts from Jim about wanting to install Mac OS X Server onto his Mac Mini, I never understood whether he really needed Mac OS X Server, because quite a lot of the software many people associate with server operations are built into every Mac. Cheers, Esther Cheers, Esther On Aug 1, 2011, at 01:57, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari
Re: Download status with VoiceOver [was Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac]
Hi Zachary yes, I know; but not in its current high profile status. Cups has now replaced printer services totally. For instance if you can access it http://localnost/admin:631 I think that's the interface they use. I haven't tried it but that's from memory. On 1 Aug 2011, at 14:28, Zachary Kline wrote: Hi gordon, For the record, Cups is hardly new or unique to Apple. Linux and Unix systems have had it for years, and in fact OS X has as well, just somewhat disguised. It has always been possible to connect to a specific port on your macs and access Cups's web interface. Cheers, Zack. On Aug 1, 2011, at 6:12 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: Hi Esther The situation has changed radically with Lion. In Jim's case, he has the hardware which comes with OS X Server pre-installed, I believe. This hardware is customised for OSX Server and cannot run anything else. It won't boot from a DVD or pen drive, as I understand it. Jim, I believe, wanted the twin HD and the I7 processor, but doesn't need the server stuff. Actually it's my experience that the server software would impede the regular use of applications in some situations because it requires specific configuration data to be present. My understanding is that you can't install the regular version of Lion on this hardware platform. As for the downloads, I'm not sure whether you're using Lion yet. But this has also changed. There is no longer a download window to interact with. So you need to press the Download button on the Safari toolbar before you get any interaction with the downloads. In our case, you're correct that we need full server-side functionality. Jim probably wasn't aware of the situation with the Mac Mini Server before he bought it, and that's entirely understandable. Lion Server is grossly different in many respects from earlier versions. For a start, Print Services, Quicktime Streaming and MYSQL service are not supported any longer. Print Services has been replaced by what a Apple calls Cups and the rest has been dropped completely. Why they opted to drop MYSQL I'm not entirely sure, but they have. Gordon On 1 Aug 2011, at 13:51, Esther wrote: Hello Dónal, I assume that you and Chris are referring to the lack of an automatic announcement on the start (and progress) of a download. It has always been possible to get information on the progress of a download with VoiceOver by interacting with the group in the Downloads window of Safari, all the way back since VoiceOver was first implemented in Tiger. For small files, the download can be complete before you even switch to the window, but for large files you can get a report on progress, size, and estimated time to completion. You can also stop the download. And on another related issue, I understand that all of Gordon's discussions have been on the updated Mac OS X Server interface changes in Lion (not specifically VoiceOver accessibility). I know why Gordon needs to run full server operations. However, in the earlier thread and posts from Jim about wanting to install Mac OS X Server onto his Mac Mini, I never understood whether he really needed Mac OS X Server, because quite a lot of the software many people associate with server operations are built into every Mac. Cheers, Esther Cheers, Esther On Aug 1, 2011, at 01:57, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window
Re: Download status with VoiceOver [was Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac]
That is correct Esther. in the past Safari had a download manager which would open upon clicking a link that initiated a file download which was not a html/shtml or gif, jpeg or png file. A blind person was able to establish that a download had started as VO would announce that the Download manager window had opened (in most cases people kept it closed, so it being opened prompted VO to speak) The knew popup download manager is more integrated into Safari and does not open/popup when a download is initiated, which means a blind person has no clue that the download has started. It would be very useful if there was a sound or a vocal prompt to notify users that a download has commenced. It would also be very useful to also be notified when the download was complete too. iTunes informs you when a file has downloaded or a sync has been completed, so why can't Safari? While we are added, they should add file completion alerts to the Mac app store too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 13:51, Esther wrote: Hello Dónal, I assume that you and Chris are referring to the lack of an automatic announcement on the start (and progress) of a download. It has always been possible to get information on the progress of a download with VoiceOver by interacting with the group in the Downloads window of Safari, all the way back since VoiceOver was first implemented in Tiger. For small files, the download can be complete before you even switch to the window, but for large files you can get a report on progress, size, and estimated time to completion. You can also stop the download. And on another related issue, I understand that all of Gordon's discussions have been on the updated Mac OS X Server interface changes in Lion (not specifically VoiceOver accessibility). I know why Gordon needs to run full server operations. However, in the earlier thread and posts from Jim about wanting to install Mac OS X Server onto his Mac Mini, I never understood whether he really needed Mac OS X Server, because quite a lot of the software many people associate with server operations are built into every Mac. Cheers, Esther Cheers, Esther On Aug 1, 2011, at 01:57, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote: Chris, Funny you should mention the lack of feedback for downloads. Before Lion was released, I was having a conversation with Lynne off-list to try to ascertain (visually) what was going on. there is a visual cue when a download starts, but absolutely no auditory feedback whatsoever. This is simply ridiculous. When any other kind of link is activated, the focus moves to either a different part of the page, a new page, or a piece of multimedia content starts to run. Surely a simple download starting message could happen? Dónal On 1 Aug 2011, at 12:02, Chris Moore wrote: Nic, Regarding the download situation with Safari. I actually prefer the new download pop up, however I wish VO would provide feedback after clicking on a downloadable file link and say something like downloading and I was disappointed to discover that Safari still does not read out the title of the web page when switching between tabs. I have had a couple of weird things happen to me with the rotar too, but quite rare. I might treat myself to a new iMac next year, so hope they do not decide to remove the optical drive from that too. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 11:48, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: Hi Gordon, I completely agree with you. I haven't personally experienced most of these bugs people are reporting, so that could mean a lot of things including user error, and the inability to understand how a feature works. One example is that previously in Snow Leopard, when downloading a file, a window would open. In lion, these downloads appear in so-called popovers, and is accessed via a Downloads button in the Safari toolbar. While some bugs definitely exist, as no operating system is perfect, it's far from bad enough to not purchase an iMac if you want one. Back in Snow Leopard, some general Safari bugs were also due to the Webkit engine Safari used to render HTML content, and updating this fixed a lot of issues and this still seems to be the case under OS X Lion. While the regular OS X Lion does have bugs, they're not as bad as they seem. Of course, depending on what you may consider a showstopper they may be quite numerous, but if you're not too worried about using possible workarounds until a bug is addressed, I think you'll be fine. I tend to nitpick often when using an operating system, and Mac OS X is also one of them, so I sometimes get very critical. However, a bug such as VoiceOver not always being able to detect web elements when using commands to jump to them has a workaround, and is also investigation. That is one important thing to understand. As Lynne pointed out in an earlier email, if a bug is not addressed straight
Re: Download status with VoiceOver [was Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac]
Travis, 1. I agree Safari and VO have always worked fine when opening and switching between windows. I guess I use tabs as I used to be able to see, and I hated clutter and too many windows open. Tabs are so neat and clutter free in my mind's eye too. i am just knit picking I guess, but I think it is an oversight as the tabs themselves have the title of the web page written on them and when you switch to a new tab the title appears on the window title bar too. So for VO not to pick up on this is lazy programming in my opinion. I use Windows a lot, so guess I get used to some of the bells and whistles you become used to with JAWS. 2. I think Gordon's point was that it was quicker and more accessible being able to navigate a print services window instead of having to navigate around a web interface via Safari. 3. I also agree with you on the conversations / thread matter. Apple have tried to make their threads look more like conversations that appear in the iPhone and the forth coming iMessage facility, so I guess they are trying to bundle everything up. Chris On 1 Aug 2011, at 17:51, Travis Siegel wrote: Just a couple things here. 1. I don't use tabs, but switching between windows using command-tilde in safari has always read the title of the current page, all the way back to tiger. If tabs don't work this way, then it seems simple enough not to use them. I was under the impression that tabs did nothing for vo users, but of course, I'm always willing to be corrected on that point. 2. Cups is not unique to apple. As Zachery pointed out, it's been in unix oses for years and years, and (yes, even in osx) In fact, we use cups in tiger to talk to one of our printers which is network capable, and it's plugged into the tiger machine, because that's the one with the server software on it (well, it did, but not anymore, but it's still tiger) Linux, and even windows supports cups as well with the proper drivers, so this is just apple finally moving to match the rest of the computing community. Although, I really need to question their need to change mail's threading to conversations, when every other mail client on the planet calls them threads, calling them conversations is only going to confuse folks to no purpose, but that's neither here nor there. When I'm able, I fully intend to obtain lion server, but that won't be for a few months at least, gotta upgrade some machines first, and replace a broken interconnect board in one mac mini, then upgrade it's memory to meet lion requirements. I'm reading the lion server threads (yes, I said threads not conversations) with great pleasure, as it allows me to learn in advance what to watch out for, and what works out of the box so to speak. I'm sure I'll have a whole lot more to say once Ihave lion server setup, but until then, all I can do is sit here and wish. :) --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/ --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
Re: Should I delay buying I-Mac
hello Mike On 2 Aug 2011, at 01:00, Mike Arrigo wrote: • First, if you ordered an imac now, it may still come with snow leppard. I've been using lion now for a few days, sure there are some minor issues, but certainly no show stoppers. I would go ahead and order the imac, you should be fine. I believe that, according to the website, they are shipping Lion now. Lynne --- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --- To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net You can find a monthly formatted archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at the following URL: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free! Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the list website at: http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/
