Re: [MBZ] I hate vans!

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 20:52:14 -0700
Craig via Mercedes  wrote:

> I have been trying to change the thermostat on our Big Red Van, a 1989
> Chevy G20 Beauville. It is bringing up challenges, to say the least ...
> 
> Having drained the radiator enough to take the upper hose loose from the
> thermostat fitting on the top of the engine, I removed the hose and one
> of the thermostat fitting mounting bolts. I found what is shown in the
> pictures.
> 
> Over the other thermostat fitting mounting bolt is a brace to the back
> of the serpentine belt tensioner. The nut is a little larger than
> 11/16" (0.6875") -- an 11/16" socket ALMOST fits on, but won't, not even
> with a little hammering. An 18 mm socket (0.70866) is rather loose.
> 
> The only 18 mm socket I have is a deep six-point impact socket I got as a
> part of a set from Harbor Freight. With the length, it's hard to get to
> the nut even with a U-joint.
> Any suggestions?!
> Thanks,
> Craig
~~
The 18mm is .70866mm, and the nut is a little over .68750mm, so you need to 
make up a width of something less than .2116mm.
If I lived a long way from a FLAPS, I would cut two pieces off of a .1000mm 
thickness gauge that fit the inside faces of the 18mm wrench or the nut, stick 
them on opposite faces with grease, and see if they fit the nut. If so, I would 
cut 4 more pieces, stick them on the remaining 4 faces, and remove the nut.
If the 1.000mm shims were too tight, I would use the next size down in the 
thickness gauge set. Worked for me but YMMV.

Also, probably best to use some sort of solvent on the nut and let it set 
several hours with repeated applications.
Gerry


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Re: [MBZ] Fused

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

Can't say specifically where the problem was, I didn't find any damaged 
or loose vac lines but I pushed all connections tight.  I keep an eye on 
the vac hoses and replace them as needed.


In any case, it starts instantly and stops quickly again.  We're having 
a snow storm today that is supposed to drop 8-10" of the white stuff. 
People perception about it's beauty depending on how much driving and 
shoveling you have to do.   I don't have to shovel and my wife is off 
this weekend,  so for now we're good.


So, once again a big THANK You for all the help.   If I failed to 
respond to your comments specifically, I am sorry - But I read and 
appreciated everything.   If I failed to reply it may be because I felt 
the need to get to the garage and try the suggestions. ;-)


Happy New Year!

LarryT


On 01/05/2017 5:43 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

Top, on a 602!


OK Don via Mercedes 
January 5, 2017 at 4:41 PM
IIRC, the loose vacuum line will be near the rear of the injection pump.

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <


Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
January 5, 2017 at 3:59 PM
Congratulations! Its a good feeling when you finally get there.
Look again for the loose vacuum hose, follow the big pipe from the 
pump up to the brake booster, I think there will be a line off of 
that headed for the firewall but I've never worked on a 124. If it 
never shuts off its got to be a hose. Look down next to the IP, you 
should be able to see the shutoff (again I've never seen this on a 
124 but its obvious on a 123) and make sure you didn't knock the line 
off the shutoff.
Its possible the line is split so if you find that its attached run 
your fingers along it and see if the plastic is broke.

-Curt

From: Larry Turner via Mercedes 
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Larry Turner 
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2017 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fused

Thanks again to all who tried to help me.  It's all back together,
no longer blows fuses and starts perfectly - it also drive-- as good as
usual (which is very good) and it's all back together except for the
noise shield under the engine & tranny.

However (but) when I turned to key to get out the engine kept
running.  I don't think I have ever had so much trouble with a simple
maintenance item.  (simple now that ya'll have educated me)

So,  I opened the hood and looked for a un-connnected vacuum hose.
Nuttin, Yes, I checked the hose near the front next to the fuel
filter,  Still didn't find any problems such as unconnected vacuum 
hoses,


The gizmo with the lever on it that says "Stop" immediately
shut her down, when pressed.  But I had to rest a little before I start
the search again.  So I figured I should ask the brain trust for
suggestions.

Thanks to all!  In advance!  Sounds like a vacuum leak to me, but
that won't buy a cup of coffee even with $1.

At least it can be driven.  My wife probably won;t want to fo to work
after stopping the engine and getting diesel on her hand.  ;-) Pretty
darned picky!

Suggestions?

Larry


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Larry Turner via Mercedes 
January 5, 2017 at 3:54 PM
Thanks again to all who tried to help me.   It's all back 
together, no longer blows fuses and starts perfectly - it also 
drive-- as good as usual (which is very good) and it's all back 
together except for the noise shield under the engine & tranny.


However (but) when I turned to key to get out the engine kept 
running.   I don't think I have ever had so much trouble with a 
simple maintenance item.  (simple now that ya'll have educated me)


So,  I opened the hood and looked for a un-connnected vacuum 
hose.  Nuttin, Yes, I checked the hose near the front next to the 
fuel filter,   Still didn't find any problems such as unconnected 
vacuum hoses,


The gizmo with the lever on it that says "Stop" immediately 
shut her down, when pressed.   But I had to rest a little before I 
start the search again.  So I figured I should ask the brain trust 
for suggestions.


Thanks to all!  In advance!  Sounds like a vacuum leak to me, but 
that won't buy a cup of coffee even with $1.


At least it can be driven.  My wife probably won;t want to fo to work 
after stopping the engine and getting diesel on her hand. ;-)  Pretty 
darned picky!


Suggestions?

Larry




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Re: [MBZ] I hate vans!

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

If you can access YouTube, I'll bet there are some video tutorials showing the 
"trick" for the belt tensioner.  You may also find inspiration for getting that 
nut off.

If you can get an edge-wise approach with a hammer and chisel, you might get it 
loose.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Fused

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

That stud-guide idea is a keeper!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On January 6, 2017 11:28:57 PM EST, Larry Turner via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>
>BTW,  when preparing to install the manifold I found 2 40m-50mm x 6mm 
>bolts in my stash and hack sawed the heads off.  I now had some studs 
>that would keep the gasket and the wiring harness hardware in place.  
>They worked as expected but it took some effort to get them out.
>
>LarryT
>
>
>

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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[tyee165 via Mercedes]

I have never owned a Volvo. Used to want one with the overdrive Manulife 
transmission.I am just going on what I have read on other forums.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 Date: 2017-01-06  2:01 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Mercedes 
Discussion List  Cc: Curt Raymond  
Subject: Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo 
I've never heard this as an issue with Volvos, my uncle has had many and has 
been super happy. He doesn't DIY much but his cost of ownership is pretty low...
-Curt

  From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Randy Bennell 
 Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 12:20 PM
 Subject: [MBZ] more on Volvo
   
I think that one of the reasons why Volvo parts are expensive is that 
one is often forced to buy assemblies rather than parts of assemblies.

Unfortunately, that seems to be becoming more common with other brands 
as well.

RB


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Re: [MBZ] Randy, don't take that trip now!

[tyee165 via Mercedes]

Yes, the locals might feel chilly but it is about 0 F here right now so 70s 
sound OK. My sister and brother in law are on Kauai right now. She was sending 
me pictures she took from a helicopter yesterday.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 Date: 2017-01-06  11:30 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Mercedes 
Discussion List  Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Randy, don't take that trip now! 
It is all relative.  At 60 they wear fleece liined denim jackets.  I had 
one.  It was WAY too hot above 0ºF

Hawaii has 11 of the world's 13 climates, so WHERE you are on an island 
makes a HUGE difference!  They've already had more snow than normal.


> Craig via Mercedes 
> January 6, 2017 at 11:08 PM
> On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 22:56:03 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
>
> " ... A cool and dry northerly flow will spread from north to south
> behind the dissipating front, and island weather will continue to be
> chilly the next couple of days. ... High temperatures from 77° to 82°.
> ... Low temperatures from 64° to 70° ... "
>
>
> Chilly, huh? I would love to have those temperatures!
>
>
> Craig
>
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[MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

OK guys, here's my question of the day:  Should the diesel injection pump
timing be tested / set when the engine is hot, or cold, or does it not
matter at all?
-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] Fused

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

+1   Cut a slot in the end for a straight screwdriver



Max Dillon via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 8:09 AM
That stud-guide idea is a keeper!
Larry Turner via Mercedes 
January 6, 2017 at 10:28 PM
Jim,

...
BTW,  when preparing to install the manifold I found 2 40m-50mm x 6mm 
bolts in my stash and hack sawed the heads off.  I now had some studs 
that would keep the gasket and the wiring harness hardware in place.  
They worked as expected but it took some effort to get them out.


LarryT



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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

On a Benz, it does not matter.  On my old Volvo with a "cold start" device, 
either hot or with the cold start disconnected (it advanced the timing quite a 
bit cold).

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

tyee165 via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 8:13 AM
I have never owned a Volvo. Used to want one with the overdrive 
Manulife transmission.I am just going on what I have read on other forums.


ex-BIL bought one of those new.  the overdrive broke as soon as it was 
out of warranty.  cost  or $ to fix, so as a typical V owner, he 
never fixed it.  Said it was not fit to run on the highway, so he drove 
it around town for another 10 yrs or so until the cumulative effects of 
not fixing anything caught up to it.  He probably paid a quickie place 
to change oil (or not).  He didn't even know how to run a crescent wrench.

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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Sadly, we have returned to the age of disposable cars, made of junky parts 
intended to be discarded at the end of the car loan.

I've been advised to avoid any Benz after 2006, they suffer from mysterious 
computer ailments that can only be fixed by replacement at $2500 each.  Always 
see a couple at the u-pull without body damage, meaning too expensive to repair 
electronics failures.

Lots of cost cutting, too, to keep the price down to where people can afford 
them -- to my mind, the old analog and non-electronic systems are both cheaper 
to make and much more reliable in the long run.  The current infatuation with 
computer operated everything is not only very expensive with minimal or no 
improvement in operation, or downright dangerous (cars that don't have a 
mechanical park on automatics, for one).  Drive by wire, brake by wire, etc. is 
VERY expensive vs a solid steering column and a hydraulic pump or master 
cylinder and calipers

Been a problem all my life, people drool all over themselves with greed when 
you say "computer", and while they are great for some things, current 
automotive systems are way over the top.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

That's what I had always thought, but after setting the pump timing cold,
I'm not too happy with the results, so I was wondering if it should be done
on a hot engine.

Careful reading of the FSM for OM60x indicates that it is checked when the
engine is at idle, and then adjusted if necessary, so now I'm beginning to
wonder if I should set when hot.

Wouldn't the timing chain tension change when hot?  If the timing chain
tension changes, then the pump timing could change?

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On a Benz, it does not matter.  On my old Volvo with a "cold start"
> device, either hot or with the cold start disconnected (it advanced the
> timing quite a bit cold).
>
> Peter
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

The 200, 700, and 900 series cars were essentially indestructable.  Ran 
forever, the 700 and 900 didn't rust, they were great cars.

All later models (after Ford bought Volvo) are rolling junk.  My neighbor 
bought an 850 to replace their 245 with 300,000 miles on it, sold it in six 
months after the altenator failed the second time since they had the car at 
$450 each (unique to the car).  

For light duty they are OK, but have a reputation for electrical issues and 
mechanical reliability problems.  A Ford at twice the price, so to speak.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Yes I think cars today are ridiculous. Even the cheapest of cars has gadgets 
and electronics only high end luxury cars would have before. It would be nice 
to have more simple mechanical cars. Wonder how much cheaper they would be 
without all the bloat ware. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 9:30 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sadly, we have returned to the age of disposable cars, made of junky parts 
> intended to be discarded at the end of the car loan.
> 
> I've been advised to avoid any Benz after 2006, they suffer from mysterious 
> computer ailments that can only be fixed by replacement at $2500 each.  
> Always see a couple at the u-pull without body damage, meaning too expensive 
> to repair electronics failures.
> 
> Lots of cost cutting, too, to keep the price down to where people can afford 
> them -- to my mind, the old analog and non-electronic systems are both 
> cheaper to make and much more reliable in the long run.  The current 
> infatuation with computer operated everything is not only very expensive with 
> minimal or no improvement in operation, or downright dangerous (cars that 
> don't have a mechanical park on automatics, for one).  Drive by wire, brake 
> by wire, etc. is VERY expensive vs a solid steering column and a hydraulic 
> pump or master cylinder and calipers
> 
> Been a problem all my life, people drool all over themselves with greed when 
> you say "computer", and while they are great for some things, current 
> automotive systems are way over the top.
> 
> Peter
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Static timing is always cold or somewhat warm <100ºF

I never had one of those dynamic dealies, so it may vary, but obviously 
the engine is running.


From OM621 to OM60x I never say anything in the manual about warm or 
cold, so I don't think it matter.


You can do experiment and do both and compare.



Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 8:42 AM
OK guys, here's my question of the day: Should the diesel injection pump
timing be tested / set when the engine is hot, or cold, or does it not
matter at all?
-
Max
Charleston SC



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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 9:30 AM
Sadly, we have returned to the age of disposable cars, made of junky 
parts intended to be discarded at the end of the car loan.


I've been advised to avoid any Benz after 2006, they suffer from 
mysterious computer ailments that can only be fixed by replacement at 
$2500 each. Always see a couple at the u-pull without body damage, 
meaning too expensive to repair electronics failures.


Lots of cost cutting, too, to keep the price down to where people can 
afford them -- to my mind, the old analog and non-electronic systems 
are both cheaper to make and much more reliable in the long run. The 
current infatuation with computer operated everything is not only very 
expensive with minimal or no improvement in operation, or downright 
dangerous (cars that don't have a mechanical park on automatics, for 
one). Drive by wire, brake by wire, etc. is VERY expensive vs a solid 
steering column and a hydraulic pump or master cylinder and calipers


Been a problem all my life, people drool all over themselves with 
greed when you say "computer", and while they are great for some 
things, current automotive systems are way over the top.


Peter


+1  Amen, Can I get a Hallelujah?

As I call em, throwaway electronic toys.
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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Let's picture this for a moment, I picture it all the time in my mind. How does 
the car world look in 20 years? Heck maybe even 10 years? When do we reach the 
point that keeping a 126 on the road is no longer viable due to parts 
availability? Are we all then going to be forced to drive newer cars? What do 
we do? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 9:44 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>> January 7, 2017 at 9:30 AM
>> Sadly, we have returned to the age of disposable cars, made of junky parts 
>> intended to be discarded at the end of the car loan.
>> 
>> I've been advised to avoid any Benz after 2006, they suffer from mysterious 
>> computer ailments that can only be fixed by replacement at $2500 each. 
>> Always see a couple at the u-pull without body damage, meaning too expensive 
>> to repair electronics failures.
>> 
>> Lots of cost cutting, too, to keep the price down to where people can afford 
>> them -- to my mind, the old analog and non-electronic systems are both 
>> cheaper to make and much more reliable in the long run. The current 
>> infatuation with computer operated everything is not only very expensive 
>> with minimal or no improvement in operation, or downright dangerous (cars 
>> that don't have a mechanical park on automatics, for one). Drive by wire, 
>> brake by wire, etc. is VERY expensive vs a solid steering column and a 
>> hydraulic pump or master cylinder and calipers
>> 
>> Been a problem all my life, people drool all over themselves with greed when 
>> you say "computer", and while they are great for some things, current 
>> automotive systems are way over the top.
>> 
>> Peter
> 
> +1  Amen, Can I get a Hallelujah?
> 
> As I call em, throwaway electronic toys.
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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Yesterday, I went to start the drive by wire van, and turned the MB 
electronic key to start and then let off.  It kept cranking, no start 
until I realized what was going on and shut it off.  Tried again and it 
started normally. The previous time it was driven it started whining 
about the gascap.  Got out and took the gas cap off and put it on.  
still whining. rinse and repeat.  still whining.


After the starter incident, it was still whining about the gascap.  Got 
out and took the gas cap off and put it on.  still whining. rinse and 
repeat.  still whining.


Several weeks ago SWMBO complained it didn't start, so she took the 
240D.   Crap like this sure makes you love a 240D!


I presume either electrons are not going where they are supposed to, or 
going where they are not supposed to.  I have no idea how to 
troubleshoot.  Either bad connectors, that could be anywhere or a 
computer module going bad.  But either way, I no longer trust it for 
long trips.  It has had no wiring work  in the last 100k miles, other 
than the FOBIK recall done by the stealer as a recall  FOBIK = 
dogdespeak for the MB electronic "key."


I suppose there is a high likelihood the stealer screwed up something 
with that.



I sure wish OM603 powered vans were available in the USA 30 yrs ago.



Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 9:38 AM
Yes I think cars today are ridiculous. Even the cheapest of cars has 
gadgets and electronics only high end luxury cars would have before. 
It would be nice to have more simple mechanical cars. Wonder how much 
cheaper they would be without all the bloat ware.


Sent from my iPhone



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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 9:30 AM
Sadly, we have returned to the age of disposable cars, made of junky 
parts intended to be discarded at the end of the car loan.


I've been advised to avoid any Benz after 2006, they suffer from 
mysterious computer ailments that can only be fixed by replacement at 
$2500 each. Always see a couple at the u-pull without body damage, 
meaning too expensive to repair electronics failures.


Lots of cost cutting, too, to keep the price down to where people can 
afford them -- to my mind, the old analog and non-electronic systems 
are both cheaper to make and much more reliable in the long run. The 
current infatuation with computer operated everything is not only very 
expensive with minimal or no improvement in operation, or downright 
dangerous (cars that don't have a mechanical park on automatics, for 
one). Drive by wire, brake by wire, etc. is VERY expensive vs a solid 
steering column and a hydraulic pump or master cylinder and calipers


Been a problem all my life, people drool all over themselves with 
greed when you say "computer", and while they are great for some 
things, current automotive systems are way over the top.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

No instructions in the manual for "manual" injection pump timing for the 60x 
engines, at least not in the one I have.

Injection pump should be locked using the MB  tool with engine set a 15 degrees 
ATDC to R &R, and you can use the tool to set the timing more or less 
accurately using the tool (tool engages the locking/pickup lug at 15 degrees 
ATDC) but the system was designed to be dynamic using the Hall Effect pickup 
tool screwed into the pump and the screw adjuster on the IP mount.  There is 
too much slop in the lock to get accurate timing, I assume to prevent breaking 
the IP by jamming the lug with the lock tool if it's being inserted on a used 
engine.  Couple degrees makes a big difference.

You CAN use the old manual method to set beginning of injection, but you will 
have to make a drip tube.  Spec then is flow stops at 26 degrees BTDC just like 
the OM61x engines.

My brother had his set by the dealer, and it has more injection noise at idle 
than mine does, makes me think I'm due for a chain at 400k or so.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

You will be forced to walk, bike, ride a hoss, ride "public transport" 
that runs once a day in your area,  on the highway, so a trip outside 
nowata involved being gone overnight, or paying big bucks for a Lyft in 
a self driving car.  All "cars" will be ride share.  So they can stop 
and have the guy who has not had a bath for 6-8 months sitting next to you.


This happens faster if the (J) party is in power.  a little slower if 
the (E) party is in power.   Of course by then you will either be 
incarcerated or turned into soylent green for being "non-compliant" as 
will many of us.


I might try to escape to some "carless" island or an island where 
antique cars are tolerated.


musk, googs, uber, lyft and the (J) party all want it that way.  I 
predict if any current carmaker wants to survive, they will have to 
folow suit.


You must realize, in the utopian jetsonlike world of the (J) party, 
nobody every carries enything to or from work, to a job or jobsite.  new 
structures and transportation appears magically with  a wave of the 
majik wand


I am not sure how alaska will and wyoming be coped with in this utopia.  
They probably will be used as the car-less re-education camps (Prison) 
for the non-compliant.


Better read Richard (Dick)  Proenneke's book

Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM
Let's picture this for a moment, I picture it all the time in my mind. 
How does the car world look in 20 years? Heck maybe even 10 years? 
When do we reach the point that keeping a 126 on the road is no longer 
viable due to parts availability? Are we all then going to be forced 
to drive newer cars? What do we do?


Sent from my iPhone




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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

the 126 cds have the IP lock method and the dynamic method.  I never 
read through the dynamic instruction because I don't have one.


I use my modified drip tube method (without drip tube) successfully.


Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 10:13 AM
No instructions in the manual for "manual" injection pump timing for 
the 60x engines, at least not in the one I have.


Injection pump should be locked using the MB tool with engine set a 15 
degrees ATDC to R &R, and you can use the tool to set the timing more 
or less accurately using the tool (tool engages the locking/pickup lug 
at 15 degrees ATDC) but the system was designed to be dynamic using 
the Hall Effect pickup tool screwed into the pump and the screw 
adjuster on the IP mount. There is too much slop in the lock to get 
accurate timing, I assume to prevent breaking the IP by jamming the 
lug with the lock tool if it's being inserted on a used engine. Couple 
degrees makes a big difference.


You CAN use the old manual method to set beginning of injection, but 
you will have to make a drip tube. Spec then is flow stops at 26 
degrees BTDC just like the OM61x engines.


My brother had his set by the dealer, and it has more injection noise 
at idle than mine does, makes me think I'm due for a chain at 400k or so.


Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

What is the method that uses the a b light deal? I have one of those and have 
used it a few times but it's been a while. I don't recall the engine running 
though, it was more of a rotate engine till a light comes on, then continue 
till both are on, if you keep going till only b is lit you went to far. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 10:30 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> the 126 cds have the IP lock method and the dynamic method.  I never read 
> through the dynamic instruction because I don't have one.
> 
> I use my modified drip tube method (without drip tube) successfully.
> 
>> Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>> January 7, 2017 at 10:13 AM
>> No instructions in the manual for "manual" injection pump timing for the 60x 
>> engines, at least not in the one I have.
>> 
>> Injection pump should be locked using the MB tool with engine set a 15 
>> degrees ATDC to R &R, and you can use the tool to set the timing more or 
>> less accurately using the tool (tool engages the locking/pickup lug at 15 
>> degrees ATDC) but the system was designed to be dynamic using the Hall 
>> Effect pickup tool screwed into the pump and the screw adjuster on the IP 
>> mount. There is too much slop in the lock to get accurate timing, I assume 
>> to prevent breaking the IP by jamming the lug with the lock tool if it's 
>> being inserted on a used engine. Couple degrees makes a big difference.
>> 
>> You CAN use the old manual method to set beginning of injection, but you 
>> will have to make a drip tube. Spec then is flow stops at 26 degrees BTDC 
>> just like the OM61x engines.
>> 
>> My brother had his set by the dealer, and it has more injection noise at 
>> idle than mine does, makes me think I'm due for a chain at 400k or so.
>> 
>> Peter
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I always check it several times to make sure I have repeatability before 
I consider timing set.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 10:13 AM
No instructions in the manual for "manual" injection pump timing for 
the 60x engines, at least not in the one I have.


Injection pump should be locked using the MB tool with engine set a 15 
degrees ATDC to R &R, and you can use the tool to set the timing more 
or less accurately using the tool (tool engages the locking/pickup lug 
at 15 degrees ATDC) but the system was designed to be dynamic using 
the Hall Effect pickup tool screwed into the pump and the screw 
adjuster on the IP mount. There is too much slop in the lock to get 
accurate timing, I assume to prevent breaking the IP by jamming the 
lug with the lock tool if it's being inserted on a used engine. Couple 
degrees makes a big difference.


You CAN use the old manual method to set beginning of injection, but 
you will have to make a drip tube. Spec then is flow stops at 26 
degrees BTDC just like the OM61x engines.


My brother had his set by the dealer, and it has more injection noise 
at idle than mine does, makes me think I'm due for a chain at 400k or so.


Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

I tried to set it using the bubble method, I was less than happy with how that 
went, cold engine.  I found it difficult to find the start of injection point, 
when the bubbles were supposed to stop.

I checked it with the locking pin, I think it was off according to the pin 
position, so I set it according to the locking pin.  Again, the engine was cold.

I'm going to set with locking pin on warm engine today, see how that works.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On January 7, 2017 11:13:39 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>No instructions in the manual for "manual" injection pump timing for
>the 60x engines, at least not in the one I have.
>
>Injection pump should be locked using the MB  tool with engine set a 15
>degrees ATDC to R &R, and you can use the tool to set the timing more
>or less accurately using the tool (tool engages the locking/pickup lug
>at 15 degrees ATDC) but the system was designed to be dynamic using the
>Hall Effect pickup tool screwed into the pump and the screw adjuster on
>the IP mount.  There is too much slop in the lock to get accurate
>timing, I assume to prevent breaking the IP by jamming the lug with the
>lock tool if it's being inserted on a used engine.  Couple degrees
>makes a big difference.
>
>You CAN use the old manual method to set beginning of injection, but
>you will have to make a drip tube.  Spec then is flow stops at 26
>degrees BTDC just like the OM61x engines.
>
>My brother had his set by the dealer, and it has more injection noise
>at idle than mine does, makes me think I'm due for a chain at 400k or
>so.
>
>Peter
>
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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

There are two instruments, the static one and the dynamic one.  Dynamic one was 
dealer only as a rule, probably too expensive for independent shops.  Both work 
by sensing the position of the lug on the governor shaft that is also used to 
lock the pump.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

A lot of that is the result of gummint mandates for fuel efficiency 
increases and safety nannies to make sure you have fastened your 
seatbelt and know how to work your brakes etc. While I guess the 
benefits of all that are reasonably good, having the various electrons 
whizzing around encourages the engineers to add other doodads to start 
and stop the car and to keep you in your lane and to make sure you screw 
on the gas cap tightly so as not to upset the evaporative emissions in 
Kollyfawnya.  Then it becomes a bit of an arms race to add features and 
functions to the radio and seats and whatnot, when a good old lever or 
rotating knob would work a lot better than a switch and solenoid and 
motor with a microcontroller overseeing it all.


I'm thinking the old TD, if it wasn't slowly succumbing to entropy, 
would be the ideal ride, aside from the heating AC controller it is 
quite agricultural and could run on most anything half combustible.


--R


On 1/7/17 10:38 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

Yes I think cars today are ridiculous. Even the cheapest of cars has gadgets 
and electronics only high end luxury cars would have before. It would be nice 
to have more simple mechanical cars. Wonder how much cheaper they would be 
without all the bloat ware.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 7, 2017, at 9:30 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
 wrote:

Sadly, we have returned to the age of disposable cars, made of junky parts 
intended to be discarded at the end of the car loan.

I've been advised to avoid any Benz after 2006, they suffer from mysterious 
computer ailments that can only be fixed by replacement at $2500 each.  Always 
see a couple at the u-pull without body damage, meaning too expensive to repair 
electronics failures.

Lots of cost cutting, too, to keep the price down to where people can afford 
them -- to my mind, the old analog and non-electronic systems are both cheaper 
to make and much more reliable in the long run.  The current infatuation with 
computer operated everything is not only very expensive with minimal or no 
improvement in operation, or downright dangerous (cars that don't have a 
mechanical park on automatics, for one).  Drive by wire, brake by wire, etc. is 
VERY expensive vs a solid steering column and a hydraulic pump or master 
cylinder and calipers

Been a problem all my life, people drool all over themselves with greed when you say 
"computer", and while they are great for some things, current automotive 
systems are way over the top.

Peter

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--
--FT
Winston Churchill:
“Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or 
petty,
never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the 
enemy.”


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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Kleb has the "dealer" dongle, I think.


Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 11:16 AM
There are two instruments, the static one and the dynamic one. Dynamic 
one was dealer only as a rule, probably too expensive for independent 
shops. Both work by sensing the position of the lug on the governor 
shaft that is also used to lock the pump.


Peter


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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT now software rant

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

The weakness of programmers (software engineers in their parlance)  
(smart morons in my parlance) is that in their world, IF something CAN 
be done with software, it MUST be done with software. (a programmer's 
corollary to Murphy's law.) Once software is introduced into any system, 
the feature creep is never ending and uncontrollable.  (another 
corollary)If they could replace the internal combustion engine with 
electrons, they will (and are).  If they could replace the whole vehicle 
with software, they WILL.


As soon as they learn a new trick, it WILL be put into the current 
project, even though it may be a total waste, or even detrimental to the 
project. (A programmer's corollary to Murphy's law.)


Even though a "good old lever or rotating knob would work a lot better 
than a switch and solenoid and motor with a microcontroller overseeing 
it all," we will be forced into overcomplicated electronic controls and 
systems...  "Because we CAN, We MUST!"


So far, few if any people can keep a software development within scope 
and budget.


Long live the 123, 124, and 126!

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 11:18 AM
A lot of that is the result of gummint mandates for fuel efficiency 
increases and safety nannies to make sure you have fastened your 
seatbelt and know how to work your brakes etc. While I guess the 
benefits of all that are reasonably good, having the various electrons 
whizzing around encourages the engineers to add other doodads to start 
and stop the car and to keep you in your lane and to make sure you 
screw on the gas cap tightly so as not to upset the evaporative 
emissions in Kollyfawnya.  Then it becomes a bit of an arms race to 
add features and functions to the radio and seats and whatnot, when a 
good old lever or rotating knob would work a lot better than a switch 
and solenoid and motor with a microcontroller overseeing it all.


I'm thinking the old TD, if it wasn't slowly succumbing to entropy, 
would be the ideal ride, aside from the heating AC controller it is 
quite agricultural and could run on most anything half combustible.


--R



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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

This is the tool I have

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/268726-riv-timing-tool-purchase.html

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:18 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Kleb has the "dealer" dongle, I think.
> 
>> Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>> January 7, 2017 at 11:16 AM
>> There are two instruments, the static one and the dynamic one. Dynamic one 
>> was dealer only as a rule, probably too expensive for independent shops. 
>> Both work by sensing the position of the lug on the governor shaft that is 
>> also used to lock the pump.
>> 
>> Peter
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

"Hot" engine, locking tool says 13.5 degrees ATDC.  I'll retard to 14.5.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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[MBZ] NOTOT Re: stupid new cars mostly OT now software rant

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/07/nvidias-helping-mercedes-build-artificially-intelligent-cars-t/


On 1/7/17 12:30 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
The weakness of programmers (software engineers in their parlance) 
(smart morons in my parlance) is that in their world, IF something CAN 
be done with software, it MUST be done with software. (a programmer's 
corollary to Murphy's law.) Once software is introduced into any 
system, the feature creep is never ending and uncontrollable.  
(another corollary)If they could replace the internal combustion 
engine with electrons, they will (and are). If they could replace the 
whole vehicle with software, they WILL.


As soon as they learn a new trick, it WILL be put into the current 
project, even though it may be a total waste, or even detrimental to 
the project. (A programmer's corollary to Murphy's law.)


Even though a "good old lever or rotating knob would work a lot better 
than a switch and solenoid and motor with a microcontroller overseeing 
it all," we will be forced into overcomplicated electronic controls 
and systems...  "Because we CAN, We MUST!"


So far, few if any people can keep a software development within scope 
and budget.


Long live the 123, 124, and 126!

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 11:18 AM
A lot of that is the result of gummint mandates for fuel efficiency 
increases and safety nannies to make sure you have fastened your 
seatbelt and know how to work your brakes etc. While I guess the 
benefits of all that are reasonably good, having the various 
electrons whizzing around encourages the engineers to add other 
doodads to start and stop the car and to keep you in your lane and to 
make sure you screw on the gas cap tightly so as not to upset the 
evaporative emissions in Kollyfawnya.  Then it becomes a bit of an 
arms race to add features and functions to the radio and seats and 
whatnot, when a good old lever or rotating knob would work a lot 
better than a switch and solenoid and motor with a microcontroller 
overseeing it all.


I'm thinking the old TD, if it wasn't slowly succumbing to entropy, 
would be the ideal ride, aside from the heating AC controller it is 
quite agricultural and could run on most anything half combustible.


--R



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--FT
Winston Churchill:
“Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or 
petty,
never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the 
enemy.”


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Re: [MBZ] Fused

[OK Don via Mercedes]

In one session, remove then re-test one connection. The variance you are
getting in the readings is from the difference in resistance between the
probe and the point you are measuring at. If you are measuring resistances
in the 1,000's of Ohms, you won't see any difference, but if you are
measuring a glow plug, that probe to surface resistance is significant, and
might be higher than that of the glow plug. You have to get all the
surfaces extremely clean, and really press the probe into it to get
consistant readings in the one Ohm and less range.

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:28 PM, Larry Turner via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> By 'Bad' I meant they were not repeatable.  If I did the same measurement
> within 10 min or so I got the same results.   But in the morning or the
> next afternoon I would re-test and the results would be different. I could
> find no reason for that.  I placed the neg probe in the same place every
> time.  Likewise I would place the positive probe in one of the little
> openings in the GP Power Plug and I'd get different readings!
>
> I mean how difficult is it to turn the test device to ON, put the red
> probe in one place and the black probe in another, then read the big
> numbers in the window!!   Yet I managed to get different numbers each
> time.  I think I did that 3 times and got 3 different answers!
>
> I just don't understand it,   That's why I wondered if my DMM might be
> failing.
>



-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[OK Don via Mercedes]

I think they started going down hill after the 544.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_PV444/544


On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 9:34 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The 200, 700, and 900 series cars were essentially indestructable.  Ran
> forever, the 700 and 900 didn't rust, they were great cars.
>
> All later models (after Ford bought Volvo) are rolling junk.  My neighbor
> bought an 850 to replace their 245 with 300,000 miles on it, sold it in six
> months after the altenator failed the second time since they had the car at
> $450 each (unique to the car).
>
> For light duty they are OK, but have a reputation for electrical issues
> and mechanical reliability problems.  A Ford at twice the price, so to
> speak.
>
> Peter
>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I drove a 1959 544S when a grad student in M-SP back in the bronze age
(1969).  Cruised all day at 77 - tight as a drum.  Bought it for $389 and
sold it a year later for $325.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 1:19 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I think they started going down hill after the 544.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_PV444/544
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 9:34 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > The 200, 700, and 900 series cars were essentially indestructable.  Ran
> > forever, the 700 and 900 didn't rust, they were great cars.
> >
> > All later models (after Ford bought Volvo) are rolling junk.  My neighbor
> > bought an 850 to replace their 245 with 300,000 miles on it, sold it in
> six
> > months after the altenator failed the second time since they had the car
> at
> > $450 each (unique to the car).
> >
> > For light duty they are OK, but have a reputation for electrical issues
> > and mechanical reliability problems.  A Ford at twice the price, so to
> > speak.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> OK Don
>
> *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
> our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
>
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
>
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] stupid new cars mostly OT now software rant

[OK Don via Mercedes]

After watching a neighbor spend a couple AUs (Aviation Units - 1=$1,000) on
the electrical flap position indicator system in his 1966 Cessna 210, I
REALLY appreciate the Johnson bar flaps in my 1957 Cessna!  The Tailwind
has even simpler manual flaps - push/pull tubes, no cables and pulleys.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> 
> Even though a "good old lever or rotating knob would work a lot better
> than a switch and solenoid and motor with a microcontroller overseeing it
> all," we will be forced into overcomplicated electronic controls and
> systems...  "Because we CAN, We MUST!"
>
>

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] NOTOT Re: stupid new cars mostly OT now software rant

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

"Once software is introduced into any system, the feature creep is never 
ending and uncontrollable.  (another corollary)"



Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 12:13 PM
https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/07/nvidias-helping-mercedes-build-artificially-intelligent-cars-t/ 






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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

 A Ford at twice the price, so to speak.


Peter


And a kitty, is a taurus at 3 or 4 times the price!  (jag-U-wire)
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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Ok, slop in the locking tool is right.  I removed the nut and spring part, so 
the barrel with the slot could be used as a measuring tool to test engagement 
with the tooth on the pump shaft.

I found that the tool would begin to engage the tooth, then fully engage, and 
then not quite engage, over about 3 degrees.  By trial and error I adjusted the 
pump timing so that the midpoint of the engagement spread was about 14.5 
degrees ATDC, which is probably retarded about 1 or 2 degrees from where it had 
been set.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] I hate vans!

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 09:06:08 -0500 Max Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> If you can access YouTube, I'll bet there are some video tutorials
> showing the "trick" for the belt tensioner.  You may also find
> inspiration for getting that nut off.

I looked on YouTube for information on how to change the thermostat, but
found videos only for changing one in pickup trucks. Unfortunately, vans
are totally different than pickup trucks.

I'll look for belt tensioner tricks to see what's available. Loosening
one in a van is very different than on a pickup and on the two Mercedes
on which I worked.



> If you can get an edge-wise approach with a hammer and chisel, you
> might get it loose.

Unfortunately, in a van there is no edge-wise ...

I'm going to call the local NAPA store and ask if they will deliver an
3/8" angle impact wrench. That tool was the key to changing the power
steering pump on our former '94 E420 and may be the key here, too.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 10:33:11 -0500 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Wouldn't the timing chain tension change when hot?  If the timing chain
> tension changes, then the pump timing could change?

Certainly, the metal parts will change size with temperature, meaning the
timing chain will be longer when hot than when cold. This could, indeed,
change the injection timing. But then, the timing chain sprockets will be
larger when hot than when cold. And the block will be larger when hot than
when cold.

How all the interrelated parts change size with temperature and how that
affects the timing is something I am not capable of figuring out without
a LOT of information and time.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Injection Pump Timing - Hot or Cold?

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I think the factory has determined it is negligible.

These engines can run even if they are 45º out of time.


Craig via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 1:43 PM
On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 10:33:11 -0500 Meade Dillon via Mercedes

Certainly, the metal parts will change size with temperature, meaning the
timing chain will be longer when hot than when cold. This could, indeed,
change the injection timing. But then, the timing chain sprockets will be
larger when hot than when cold. And the block will be larger when hot than
when cold.

How all the interrelated parts change size with temperature and how that
affects the timing is something I am not capable of figuring out without
a LOT of information and time.


Craig

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Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 9:33 AM
That's what I had always thought, but after setting the pump timing cold,
I'm not too happy with the results, so I was wondering if it should be 
done

on a hot engine.

Careful reading of the FSM for OM60x indicates that it is checked when the
engine is at idle, and then adjusted if necessary, so now I'm beginning to
wonder if I should set when hot.

Wouldn't the timing chain tension change when hot? If the timing chain
tension changes, then the pump timing could change?

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
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Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 9:19 AM
On a Benz, it does not matter. On my old Volvo with a "cold start" 
device, either hot or with the cold start disconnected (it advanced 
the timing quite a bit cold).


Peter

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[MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

After I pick up the 420SEL, I intend to coddiwomple towards 
Gainesburger, stopping along the way to fix whatever is needed to make 
the car roadworthy.  Then go to the FL-Q, Where maybe I can get 
volunteers to give it the Martha process. After the Q, then coddiwomple 
towards Panama City, have a donut, then go on home.


FLQ in a week!  Jan 14 and 15.  Thanks Manfred!


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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

Well with 6" of snow on the ground here & still falling FLQ sounds
tempting.  Upside is I get to hot dog my new 4matic & ESP in the snow for
the first time.

Dwight Giles Jr.
1982 300CD
2005 E320 4 matic
Wickford RI

On Jan 7, 2017 3:11 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

After I pick up the 420SEL, I intend to coddiwomple towards Gainesburger,
stopping along the way to fix whatever is needed to make the car
roadworthy.  Then go to the FL-Q, Where maybe I can get volunteers to give
it the Martha process. After the Q, then coddiwomple towards Panama City,
have a donut, then go on home.

FLQ in a week!  Jan 14 and 15.  Thanks Manfred!


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[MBZ] 64 190D

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I put a watch on it on fleaby.  It is up to $13.600 now and no longer 
shows "Reserve not met."  I'd guess they had the reserve at 13k.


I wanted the watch on it because I suspect the buyer will not pay, so 
there will be a second chance offer.   It may be relisted if he really 
wants to sell it.


The fact that the rockers appear black is concerning.  It could be bad 
photography, but I suspect it is hiding repairs or rust which drop the 
value to more like the $1000 range.


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 16:55:18 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
 wrote:

> I put a watch on it on fleaby.  It is up to $13.600 now and no longer 
> shows "Reserve not met."  I'd guess they had the reserve at 13k.
> 
> I wanted the watch on it because I suspect the buyer will not pay, so 
> there will be a second chance offer.   It may be relisted if he really 
> wants to sell it.
> 
> The fact that the rockers appear black is concerning.  It could be bad 
> photography, but I suspect it is hiding repairs or rust which drop the 
> value to more like the $1000 range.

I'm sure the URL has been mentioned before, but since I deleted that
email, what is it?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Mercedes-Benz-190-Series-190D/332080715599?


Craig via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:00 PM
On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 16:55:18 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes

I'm sure the URL has been mentioned before, but since I deleted that
email, what is it?


Craig

_


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

That's nice

--FT


On 1/7/17 6:13 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Mercedes-Benz-190-Series-190D/332080715599?


Craig via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:00 PM
On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 16:55:18 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes

I'm sure the URL has been mentioned before, but since I deleted that
email, what is it?


Craig

_


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--
--FT
Winston Churchill:
“Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or 
petty,
never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the 
enemy.”


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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

As I recall the last Whataburger outpost was somewhere near Tallahassee 
off I-10.  I pulled off there to stay the night when I was moving here 
from Houston, there was a Hampton Inn or something, and to my surprise 
next door was a Whataburger!  So I got my last fix there.


--FT


On 1/7/17 3:11 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
After I pick up the 420SEL, I intend to coddiwomple towards 
Gainesburger, stopping along the way to fix whatever is needed to make 
the car roadworthy.  Then go to the FL-Q, Where maybe I can get 
volunteers to give it the Martha process. After the Q, then 
coddiwomple towards Panama City, have a donut, then go on home.


FLQ in a week!  Jan 14 and 15.  Thanks Manfred!


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--
--FT
Winston Churchill:
“Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or 
petty,
never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the 
enemy.”


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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On January 7, 2017 at 4:59 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Well with 6" of snow on the ground here & still falling FLQ sounds
> tempting.  Upside is I get to hot dog my new 4matic & ESP in the snow for
> the first time.

My ESP-less 210 4Matic wags its tail when I goose the throttle in the snow. 
I assume ESP makes that impossible. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

there are some concerns:   (some of the comments from the MB veterans 
fakebuch page)


the fact that the rockers appear to be black, indicating coverup or 
repairs.  Not original
No clear pictures of rockers or front cap of rockers or rear cap of 
rockers  The most rust prone areas, along with jack points and above the 
headlights.


Steve MacSween Yikes
Like · Reply · January 5 at 8:20am

Curley (whistle) he has a OM621 that gets OM617 HP! Pretty good trick! 
The first 80 HP OM621 I ever saw! 45% more HP!


Curley He gets more MPG than the factory manual (or experience) says he can.
Curley  Claims it has new engines: "All of the engines, belts, hoses, 
and fluids were changed within the past year."
Curley  the front turn signal lens for a US model would have been amber 
for a 1964.


CUrley He also claims it has SS hubcaps. the factory only made chrome 
plated steel AFIK. It is missing the parts book. That said, it is a very 
nice 190D. I love the side fender turn signals. At first I didn't like 
the red interior, but I grew to love itSee More




Karl Strand
Karl Strand Nice looking, but I bet it's a bondo'd rust bucket.

Curley  Only one way to find out. Send an envoy to check it out.



Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:17 PM
That's nice

--FT




Craig via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:00 PM
On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 16:55:18 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes

I'm sure the URL has been mentioned before, but since I deleted that
email, what is it?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

whataburgers around here.  not a fan.


Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:18 PM
As I recall the last Whataburger outpost was somewhere near 
Tallahassee off I-10.  I pulled off there to stay the night when I was 
moving here from Houston, there was a Hampton Inn or something, and to 
my surprise next door was a Whataburger!  So I got my last fix there.


--FT


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 17:13:21 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
 wrote:

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Mercedes-Benz-190-Series-190D/332080715599?
> 
> > Craig via Mercedes 
> > January 7, 2017 at 5:00 PM
> > On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 16:55:18 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
> >
> > I'm sure the URL has been mentioned before, but since I deleted that
> > email, what is it?

Thank you.

Regarding the rockers, you are right, they are painted black and are not
directly photographed. The picture

 http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QiIAAOSwx2dYELE~/s-l1600.jpg

shows some of the underneath near one of the rockers, but not from the
angle one would like to see for judging their condition.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

humbug

--FT


On 1/7/17 6:29 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

whataburgers around here.  not a fan.


Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:18 PM
As I recall the last Whataburger outpost was somewhere near 
Tallahassee off I-10.  I pulled off there to stay the night when I 
was moving here from Houston, there was a Hampton Inn or something, 
and to my surprise next door was a Whataburger!  So I got my last fix 
there.


--FT


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--
--FT
Winston Churchill:
“Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or 
petty,
never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the 
enemy.”


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I am not sure if that is intentional or it it simply honest 
unfamiliarity with the type.



Craig via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 5:30 PM
On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 17:13:21 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes

Thank you.

Regarding the rockers, you are right, they are painted black and are not
directly photographed. The picture

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QiIAAOSwx2dYELE~/s-l1600.jpg

shows some of the underneath near one of the rockers, but not from the
angle one would like to see for judging their condition.


Craig


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Holy cow that is crack smoking prices 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I put a watch on it on fleaby.  It is up to $13.600 now and no longer shows 
> "Reserve not met."  I'd guess they had the reserve at 13k.
> 
> I wanted the watch on it because I suspect the buyer will not pay, so there 
> will be a second chance offer.   It may be relisted if he really wants to 
> sell it.
> 
> The fact that the rockers appear black is concerning.  It could be bad 
> photography, but I suspect it is hiding repairs or rust which drop the value 
> to more like the $1000 range.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

that is why i guess a 90% chance of being a no sale.  if there are shill 
bidders, there may be as many as 5.



Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 6:19 PM
Holy cow that is crack smoking prices

S


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[rogerhga--- via Mercedes]

I believe the black is just anti rust coating. My 1980 300SD has the same 
thing. Otherwise, you'd have gravel chips and dings in the paint and it would 
rust. The coating is like a tar substance and protects the bottom. At least 
that's what it is on my car. So, no, I don't think you'll get a Kaleb price on 
this car, sorry for the Kaleb reference :-)) 
Best Wishes, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com 


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Re: [MBZ] I hate vans!

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

Buy a new Metris and be done with it;)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 09:06:08 -0500 Max Dillon via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
>> If you can access YouTube, I'll bet there are some video tutorials
>> showing the "trick" for the belt tensioner.  You may also find
>> inspiration for getting that nut off.
> 
> I looked on YouTube for information on how to change the thermostat, but
> found videos only for changing one in pickup trucks. Unfortunately, vans
> are totally different than pickup trucks.
> 
> I'll look for belt tensioner tricks to see what's available. Loosening
> one in a van is very different than on a pickup and on the two Mercedes
> on which I worked.
> 
> 
> 
>> If you can get an edge-wise approach with a hammer and chisel, you
>> might get it loose.
> 
> Unfortunately, in a van there is no edge-wise ...
> 
> I'm going to call the local NAPA store and ask if they will deliver an
> 3/8" angle impact wrench. That tool was the key to changing the power
> steering pump on our former '94 E420 and may be the key here, too.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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> 
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> 

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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

Yabut it's purdy dang nice looking.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I put a watch on it on fleaby.  It is up to $13.600 now and no longer shows 
> "Reserve not met."  I'd guess they had the reserve at 13k.
> 
> I wanted the watch on it because I suspect the buyer will not pay, so there 
> will be a second chance offer.   It may be relisted if he really wants to 
> sell it.
> 
> The fact that the rockers appear black is concerning.  It could be bad 
> photography, but I suspect it is hiding repairs or rust which drop the value 
> to more like the $1000 range.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

Nice. When did you pick up the 420?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> After I pick up the 420SEL, I intend to coddiwomple towards Gainesburger, 
> stopping along the way to fix whatever is needed to make the car roadworthy.  
> Then go to the FL-Q, Where maybe I can get volunteers to give it the Martha 
> process. After the Q, then coddiwomple towards Panama City, have a donut, 
> then go on home.
> 
> FLQ in a week!  Jan 14 and 15.  Thanks Manfred!
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

When was the buyout? Uncle just sold an 850 ('98?) to a friend. They've had it 
for years and years, its been a good car, 200,000+ miles with no real issues.
-Curt


  From: Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Peter Frederick 
 Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 10:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo
   
The 200, 700, and 900 series cars were essentially indestructable.  Ran 
forever, the 700 and 900 didn't rust, they were great cars.

All later models (after Ford bought Volvo) are rolling junk.  My neighbor 
bought an 850 to replace their 245 with 300,000 miles on it, sold it in six 
months after the altenator failed the second time since they had the car at 
$450 each (unique to the car).  

For light duty they are OK, but have a reputation for electrical issues and 
mechanical reliability problems.  A Ford at twice the price, so to speak.

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

Yeah 850 is tough. My brother had one and used it hard. Finally retired it with 
about 250K miles once tranny failed. It was a very solid and good looking car.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 10:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> When was the buyout? Uncle just sold an 850 ('98?) to a friend. They've had 
> it for years and years, its been a good car, 200,000+ miles with no real 
> issues.
> -Curt
> 
> 
>  From: Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List  
> Cc: Peter Frederick 
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo
> 
> The 200, 700, and 900 series cars were essentially indestructable.  Ran 
> forever, the 700 and 900 didn't rust, they were great cars.
> 
> All later models (after Ford bought Volvo) are rolling junk.  My neighbor 
> bought an 850 to replace their 245 with 300,000 miles on it, sold it in six 
> months after the altenator failed the second time since they had the car at 
> $450 each (unique to the car).  
> 
> For light duty they are OK, but have a reputation for electrical issues and 
> mechanical reliability problems.  A Ford at twice the price, so to speak.
> 
> Peter
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[MG via Mercedes]

I'm looking forward to it.

Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
After I pick up the 420SEL, I intend to coddiwomple towards 
Gainesburger, stopping along the way to fix whatever is needed to make 
the car roadworthy.  Then go to the FL-Q, Where maybe I can get 
volunteers to give it the Martha process. After the Q, then coddiwomple 
towards Panama City, have a donut, then go on home.


FLQ in a week!  Jan 14 and 15.  Thanks Manfred!


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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[MG via Mercedes]

There you go. Can't be any better reason. I'm hoping the weather 
here will be in an up cycle at around mid 70's.


Dwight Giles via Mercedes wrote:

Well with 6" of snow on the ground here & still falling FLQ sounds
tempting.  Upside is I get to hot dog my new 4matic & ESP in the snow for
the first time.

Dwight Giles Jr.
1982 300CD
2005 E320 4 matic
Wickford RI

On Jan 7, 2017 3:11 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

After I pick up the 420SEL, I intend to coddiwomple towards Gainesburger,
stopping along the way to fix whatever is needed to make the car
roadworthy.  Then go to the FL-Q, Where maybe I can get volunteers to give
it the Martha process. After the Q, then coddiwomple towards Panama City,
have a donut, then go on home.

FLQ in a week!  Jan 14 and 15.  Thanks Manfred!


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Re: [MBZ] 64 190D

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

But it should be the same color as the body, not black.  That is the 
point.  The fact that it is not original or as original in the most rust 
prone areas raises questions.   It appears to be paint or undercoating 
sprayed over who knows what.  the original undercoating, which may or 
may not be on a 64 was over-painted with the body color.  The fact that 
the underside all appears to be recently sprayed over also raises questions.


It may be factory perfect, or it may be a typical rusted out car that 
has been patched and sprayed over with black undercoat to hide the patches.



rogerhga--- via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 7:50 PM
I believe the black is just anti rust coating. My 1980 300SD has the 
same thing. Otherwise, you'd have gravel chips and dings in the paint 
and it would rust. The coating is like a tar substance and protects 
the bottom. At least that's what it is on my car. So, no, I don't 
think you'll get a Kaleb price on this car, sorry for the Kaleb 
reference :-))

Best Wishes,
Roger
Roger Hale
Dinnerware Classics, Inc.
Monroe, Ga.
770-267-0850
www.dinnerwareclassics.com


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Re: [MBZ] Coddiwomple

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

have not yet.


Dimitri via Mercedes 
January 7, 2017 at 8:53 PM
Nice. When did you pick up the 420?



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Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo

[Kevin Kraly via Mercedes]

In the early 1990's, my dad and I had a 1958 Volvo PV444 re powered with a B18 
engine and a 4 speed transmission. I enjoyed that little car until it got 
damaged in shipment up to Oregon. We ended up selling it afterward.
Kevin in Hillsboro, OR  

Sent from my cell   

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 8:00 PM, Dimitri via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Yeah 850 is tough. My brother had one and used it hard. Finally retired it 
> with about 250K miles once tranny failed. It was a very solid and good 
> looking car.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 10:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> When was the buyout? Uncle just sold an 850 ('98?) to a friend. They've had 
>> it for years and years, its been a good car, 200,000+ miles with no real 
>> issues.
>> -Curt
>> 
>> 
>> From: Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List  
>> Cc: Peter Frederick 
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 10:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] more on Volvo
>> 
>> The 200, 700, and 900 series cars were essentially indestructable.  Ran 
>> forever, the 700 and 900 didn't rust, they were great cars.
>> 
>> All later models (after Ford bought Volvo) are rolling junk.  My neighbor 
>> bought an 850 to replace their 245 with 300,000 miles on it, sold it in six 
>> months after the altenator failed the second time since they had the car at 
>> $450 each (unique to the car).  
>> 
>> For light duty they are OK, but have a reputation for electrical issues and 
>> mechanical reliability problems.  A Ford at twice the price, so to speak.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: not that anyone is counting

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Here are some economic indicator trends from the St Louis FED data. Way
Ahead?

1.  Student Loans
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/FGCCSAQ027S

2.  Food Stamps
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TRP6001A027NBEA

3.  Federal Debt
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GFDEGDQ188S

4.  Money Printing
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BOGMBASE

5.  Labor Force Participation
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CIVPART

6.  Median Family Income
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MEFAINUSA672N

7.  Home Ownership
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/RSAHORUSQ156S





> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 12:04 PM
> >
> > That's pretty harsh, considering by every economic indicator we are
> > way ahead of where we were in 2008.
> >


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