Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 03:37:12PM -0400, Heimdall Imbert wrote: I understand what you mean. No, it seems from your response that you do not. The mailing lists are at best secondary sources, for particular and possibly unusual difficulties that you cannot resolve by reading the primary sources, which are the man pages and the FAQ (and of course README and INSTALL.* files and such), and sometimes the documents referenced therein. Following the mailing lists may be counterproductive when you are first learning, because you run the risk of being distracted by shiny trinkets and looking too much at what other people are doing instead of really trying to understand things for yourself, first hand. There is always time later for shiny trinkets. I suppose a kind of warm social feeling might accompany following the mailing lists, and perhaps nobody should knock that; but you should bear in mind that, in terms of information, a lot of what you will see is superfluous, things that people could know or find out for themselves, if they'd just be bothered. (This message is a case in point.) One thing at a time, decide what you want to learn how to do. Be modest in your goals, and read the relevant man pages slowly and carefully. Unless you are already very comfortable with the system, trying to get information by skimming quickly lots of man pages is like trying to pick fly shit from pepper with boxing gloves. It may even be true that time spent reading carefully the man pages for the commands you see when you type 'ls /bin' or 'ls /usr/bin', even in alphabetical order, will in the not too long run give you a better sense of the system than skimming lots of messages on misc@ that you are unprepared to follow. This is not to say that misc@ cannot be a great resource for certain purposes (and marc.info is great for searching misc@, among others). Here's a very inspiring message sent last year by Ted Unangst. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=118133997408229 cheers, -wb
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Heimdall Imbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hahaha, I wanted to say the same thing but figured that this wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a discussion of this nature. But since someone else brought it up, I figure I might as well add my two cents. I currently run Debian and Windows XP on my laptop and I use it as a learning tool (because I am nowhere near a guru unlike many of the people here!). LEGO is a learning tool too. So are picture books and dolls. I don't think that word means what you think it means. //art
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
IF YOU took time to read PROPERLY Jonathan, the drivers WORKS, BUT ONLY FOR ONE NATIVE ENTRY in the disklabel. but like I WROTE, i structured my bsd system in more THAN ONE native bsd entry ie /usr/local ... IS ON wd0e if i load wd0e i get the proper size, but what's ls on my screen IS THE MAIN ROOT. so get back to your project , ill get back to subsidaries who actually cares about openbsd full market deployment overlordship. enjoy, neko --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ? To: Aram HAVARNEANU [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: misc@openbsd.org Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 6:29 AM Am 27.10.2008 um 10:49 schrieb Aram HAVARNEANU: I have been using it extensively for several years (since it first appeared) on about ~10 systems and never had a single problem with it. Is your bug reproducible? Did you fill a bug report? It was reproducable, as it seemed to always happen when an application tried to write to it. Some directories would get unreadble in Windows then and when booting back to Linux, the FS was always unclean and e2fsck tried to fix it with the beforementioned result. I did not report it as the driver seemed to be already dead at that time. The driver still doesn't run on Vista, but the ext2fsd driver does, so I think fs-driver.org can be considered obsoleted by ext2fsd - which has its own, different problems (at least no data loss), but supports UTF-8 encoded filenames. -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Am 28.10.2008 um 08:49 schrieb Neko: IF YOU took time to read PROPERLY Jonathan, 1.) Top posting is evil. 2.) Stop using caps all the time. 3.) I wasn't replying to your post. You are not the only person discussing on this list. 4.) If YOU took the time to read PROPERLY Neko, to which post it was a reply the drivers WORKS, BUT ONLY FOR ONE NATIVE ENTRY in the disklabel. I was not talking about the disklabel at all but like I WROTE, i structured my bsd system in more THAN ONE native Honestly? I don't care. I was replying to the post about fs-driver.org. so get back to your project , ill get back to subsidaries who actually cares about openbsd full market deployment overlordship. Please, troll somewhere else. No, you won't get any fish here. -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: its shows that some poor trolls here dont own ultraportables with no external drives, and use more than one os alternative. When your machine is a tool, not a toy, you run one operating system, whichever that might be. //art
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: its shows that some poor trolls here dont own ultraportables with no external drives, and use more than one os alternative. When your machine is a tool, not a toy, you run one operating system, whichever that might be. //art Art, I have a machine, it is a tool, and it has two operating systems. I want a prize!
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Forgive me for stating the obvious but insulting members of misc@ is not going to get you closer to your goal, Neko. I'm sure that nobody enjoys receiving multiple emails about this issue. So please, for the sake of those of us who don't want to read any more about this situation, let the issue be. 2008/10/28 Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] IF YOU took time to read PROPERLY Jonathan, the drivers WORKS, BUT ONLY FOR ONE NATIVE ENTRY in the disklabel. but like I WROTE, i structured my bsd system in more THAN ONE native bsd entry ie /usr/local ... IS ON wd0e if i load wd0e i get the proper size, but what's ls on my screen IS THE MAIN ROOT. so get back to your project , ill get back to subsidaries who actually cares about openbsd full market deployment overlordship. enjoy, neko
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Hahaha, I wanted to say the same thing but figured that this wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a discussion of this nature. But since someone else brought it up, I figure I might as well add my two cents. I currently run Debian and Windows XP on my laptop and I use it as a learning tool (because I am nowhere near a guru unlike many of the people here!). Cheers, Heimdall 2008/10/28 Anton Parol [EMAIL PROTECTED] Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: its shows that some poor trolls here dont own ultraportables with no external drives, and use more than one os alternative. When your machine is a tool, not a toy, you run one operating system, whichever that might be. //art Art, I have a machine, it is a tool, and it has two operating systems. I want a prize!
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Denis Doroshenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neko wrote: this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine That's actually the past... multibooting seemed way more popular ten years ago than now. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that most people - even if their machine is set up to boot multiple systems - really just use one OS per computer. have you done any analysis of statistical data in order to say so? otherwise all those way more popular, most people it is a big IYHO. On the other hand, CIFS/NFS network storage devices are cheap, and people can use them whether they dual boot, or simply have multiple machines on their network. Then too, a lot of people just use boring old thumb drives to store data that all their systems can use. well with NFS i'd agree, in case there is a robust free NFS implementation for MS Windows (haven't looked for that myself, as I don't seem to have NFS storage in my home LAN). MS actually offers one: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/interopmigration/bb380242.aspx I've even used it. It works pretty good though it is a bit awkward feeling. -B
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:31:14PM -0400, Heimdall Imbert wrote: Hahaha, I wanted to say the same thing but figured that this wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a discussion of this nature. But since someone else brought it up, I figure I might as well add my two cents. I currently run Debian and Windows XP on my laptop and I use it as a learning tool (because I am nowhere near a guru unlike many of the people here!). I am nothing like a guru, and nothing approaching a programmer. I cannot write a simple shell script without rereading parts of man pages to remember how it goes; sometimes I cannot even write a simple XHTML file without consulting the definition at w3.org to remember how it goes. I have never used Windows, I used Linux only briefly, and since then I've used nothing but OpenBSD (except where I have a shell account on a machine that belongs to someone else, and then only remotely). In my opinion OpenBSD is the ultimate learning tool, perhaps largely because of the high quality of its documentation. Also because on mailing lists like this one the developers are willing to tell it straight however the rest of us may react (I view that in itself as a form of generosity). You just have to commit to reading carefully and with patience (mainly towards the gradual accumulation of your own understanding). I think the widespread view that OpenBSD is only, or mainly, for gurus is an unfortunate myth. On the other hand, it may be true that OpenBSD is only, or mainly, for people who are willing to read carefully and patiently, and who understand and accept how OpenBSD is offered to the world for free. I believe that the latter point could be better and more widely understood. cheers, -wb (Who's received his copy of 4.4 late last week, and thanks the developers for another job (predictably) well done.)
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
I understand what you mean. I guess I should have chosen a better word. And my issue isn't that I don't read (I read as much as I can on user forums, I subscribe and read to Debian and OpenBSD mailing distributions and tinker with what I can). Unfortunately, it feels as if some of the things that I work on are trivial in comparison to some of the things that I read on this mailing list. So I guess that, at least in my eyes, you guys are gurus. :P 2008/10/28 William Boshuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:31:14PM -0400, Heimdall Imbert wrote: Hahaha, I wanted to say the same thing but figured that this wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a discussion of this nature. But since someone else brought it up, I figure I might as well add my two cents. I currently run Debian and Windows XP on my laptop and I use it as a learning tool (because I am nowhere near a guru unlike many of the people here!). I am nothing like a guru, and nothing approaching a programmer. I cannot write a simple shell script without rereading parts of man pages to remember how it goes; sometimes I cannot even write a simple XHTML file without consulting the definition at w3.org to remember how it goes. I have never used Windows, I used Linux only briefly, and since then I've used nothing but OpenBSD (except where I have a shell account on a machine that belongs to someone else, and then only remotely). In my opinion OpenBSD is the ultimate learning tool, perhaps largely because of the high quality of its documentation. Also because on mailing lists like this one the developers are willing to tell it straight however the rest of us may react (I view that in itself as a form of generosity). You just have to commit to reading carefully and with patience (mainly towards the gradual accumulation of your own understanding). I think the widespread view that OpenBSD is only, or mainly, for gurus is an unfortunate myth. On the other hand, it may be true that OpenBSD is only, or mainly, for people who are willing to read carefully and patiently, and who understand and accept how OpenBSD is offered to the world for free. I believe that the latter point could be better and more widely understood. cheers, -wb (Who's received his copy of 4.4 late last week, and thanks the developers for another job (predictably) well done.)
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On 27 Oct 2008, at 00:00, Neko wrote: now as for backwards bsd. why does freebsd write to ntfs? why does osx write to ntfs.. seems to me that is more some obstination done not to support it. As far as Mac OS X goes it does not support writing without a) a commercial package or b) a not very reliable FS driver - which may already have been mentioned here. I gave up writing to NTFS drives a long time ago so I'm not completely up to speed at the moment. Simon. I disapprove of what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On 2008-10-27, Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: its shows that some poor trolls here dont own ultraportables with no external drives, and use more than one os alternative. i pass data from bsd to fat 32 so in m$ its then copy onto ntfs, i have 1 disk - 8 os, nothing is being done , but more and more ultraportables sells, yes it could be resolv into using an ext2 partition instead, but that is not resolving a problem its going around it covering eyes and ears. my stuff works, its just a pain , and ffs driver in windooz cant read more than one disklabel. bsd suggest using more than one partition, in that problem , one is the solution, next time i wont RTFM, and do as i see fit because their more opinions than guidlines. now as for backwards bsd. why does freebsd write to ntfs? why does osx write to ntfs.. seems to me that is more some obstination done not to support it. Why doesn't Windows write to UFS? See, UFS has been around much longer than NTFS and the code is BSD licensed. Why don't you phone the MS support and whine about them not supporting UFS? After all you paid them and their ultimate goal is to please their customers, a goal which OpenBSD doesn't have. Alternatively you could ask them to send free documentation to the OpenBSD developers. shure im doing it wrong , because nothing is being done. Please send your code to tech@ but shure a color-ls.pkg is more important if you ask me, SARCASTIC Not getting your point here but please don't top-post. Best regards, Jona -- Pond-erosa Puff wouldn't take no guff Water oughta be clean and free So he fought the fight and he set things right With his OpenBSD
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sunday 26 October 2008, Neko wrote: its shows that some poor trolls here dont own ultraportables with no external drives, and use more than one os alternative. i pass data from bsd to fat 32 so in m$ its then copy onto ntfs, i have 1 disk - 8 os, nothing is being done , but more and more ultraportables sells, yes it could be resolv into using an ext2 partition instead, but that is not resolving a problem its going around it covering eyes and ears. my stuff works, its just a pain , and ffs driver in windooz cant read more than one disklabel. bsd suggest using more than one partition, in that problem , one is the solution, next time i wont RTFM, and do as i see fit because their more opinions than guidlines. now as for backwards bsd. why does freebsd write to ntfs? why does osx write to ntfs.. seems to me that is more some obstination done not to support it. shure im doing it wrong , because nothing is being done. but shure a color-ls.pkg is more important if you ask me, SARCASTIC neko neko, Your impolite off list response to me was one thing, but publicly calling Ted Unangst a troll is pure stupidity. Ted is one of the people kind enough to give you OpenBSD. The only good thing about you being stupid enough to put 8 operating systems on one disk is the people on this mailing list have an 87.5% chance you'll decide to use some other OS, uninstall OpenBSD, unsubscribe from misc@, and your pointless bitching will end. You and everyone else dumb enough to run the read/write NTFS code offered by ntfs-g3.org or similar are only one Windows Update away from corrupting all your data. The NTFS file system is intentionally undocumented, so Microsoft can, and will, change their internal NTFS specification whenever they want. This means your misguided use of the ntfs-g3.org code can start destroying your NTFS data whenever Microsoft decides they want your data destroyed. Microsoft very intentionally tries to make sure their products are undocumented and incompatible for two reasons; (1) it allows Microsoft to lock-in the end users, and (2) some end users and some free software developers are dumb enough to burn up all their time and resources attempting to attain and maintain compatibility with Microsoft's ever changing undocumented crap. There really are people in the world smart enough to avoid wasting their time with intentionally undocumented and incompatible crap from vendors like Microsoft. You are obviously not one of them. You are not even smart enough to understand the real problems caused by running a sad hack to access an undocumented file system that the vendor can change at any moment. Worse yet, you're dumb enough to bitch and complain because OpenBSD is smart enough to prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot with unreliable file system code. The best thing you can do is uninstall OpenBSD, unsubscribe from misc@, and continue down your ignorant path to eventual data destruction using one of the seven other operating systems you currently have installed. -JCR
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:01 AM, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 26 October 2008, Paul de Weerd wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:51:38PM +0200, Alexey Suslikov wrote: | Paul de Weerd wrote: | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that | | being a problem if you're trying to run a database off of | | your thumb drive, but otherwise... can you give examples of | | files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access in | | Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | | | dvd images are often 4.2G | | I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport | large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux | and *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's | (doesn't fit in fat32). | | Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this | and had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those | circumstances). | | Come on guys. | | I believe OpenBSD can do read/write on ext2. No? | | And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free | and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. True, but it's an external add-on that you may not always be able to install on the windows machine (which in my case usually isn't mine). OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, Mac OSX .. they all have 'native' support for FAT32. Granted, I don't see an easy solution for this issue (because in essence it would mean that all others need proper ntfs support). Hi Paul, It seems you and others are missing the obvious; If Microsoft actually wanted other operating system vendors to read and write NTFS, they would have provided the specifications. Trying to build and maintain compatibility with a vendor which specifically doesn't want you to build or maintain compatibility is an exercise in futility. There is no easy solution because Microsoft does not want an easy solution to exist. If anyone does create an easy solution, Microsoft will undoubtedly, once again, change things so they remain incompatible. --Oh and don't forget MS FAT/FAT32 is patent encumbered so the only reason why you still have native support for it is because Microsoft has not pushed the issue in the courts or taking the time to write a new incompatible version of FAT32. If you consider an ever changing, undocumented, closed source file system to be a problem, the best thing you can do is migrate to using something else. OpenBSD does provide read access to NTFS for the sake of faster migration, but even this is fairly unnecessary since one could transfer the data over a network connection. There's no reason to bloat the OpenBSD kernel with a feature designed as a fast solution to a temporary problem, namely migration. The answer is not fighting for NTFS support, instead, the answer is migrating away from NTFS. If someone absolutely insists on running something intentionally incompatible, the only viable answer is to leave them out in the cold until they change their mind. Exactly. More faster people forget about NTFS/FAT32, more faster interoperability problem will be solved. People wanted NTFS just forgot about the fact what they want not NTFS itself but interoperability between a number of systems. Alexey
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:21 PM, dermiste [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Alexey Suslikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Paul de Weerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:51:38PM +0200, Alexey Suslikov wrote: | Paul de Weerd wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if | | you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can | | you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access | | in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | | | dvd images are often 4.2G | | I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport | large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux and | *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's (doesn't | fit in fat32). | | Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this and | had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those | circumstances). | | Come on guys. | | I believe OpenBSD can do read/write on ext2. No? | | And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free | and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. True, but it's an external add-on that you may not always be able to install on the windows machine (which in my case usually isn't mine). OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, Mac OSX .. they all have 'native' support for FAT32. Nope. Create a small FAT32 partition on this drive and put a driver on it. How small, it is your choice. It can be 32Gb (a recommended maximum for FAT32) on these modern 1TB USB drives. And ? you'll still have to install the driver. This solves nothing. The only remaining solution involves a userland app that r/w ext2 as an archiver r/w an archive ... how convenient. So write an user-land app if you need to. If you don't like Ext2 way just don't go. It is just an option for people stuck with interoperability problem. Sure it has its own drawbacks but it does what you initially want - bidirectional access. Alexey
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. Crashed my ext2 data partition more than once, but I could always recover it with e2fsck, but the files in / all lost their names then. However, the stuff in sub directories still had names. So /foo/bar was /lost+found/$inode_no/bar after e2fsck. I have been using it extensively for several years (since it first appeared) on about ~10 systems and never had a single problem with it. Is your bug reproducible? Did you fill a bug report? -- Aram Havarneanu
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Am 27.10.2008 um 10:49 schrieb Aram HAVARNEANU: I have been using it extensively for several years (since it first appeared) on about ~10 systems and never had a single problem with it. Is your bug reproducible? Did you fill a bug report? It was reproducable, as it seemed to always happen when an application tried to write to it. Some directories would get unreadble in Windows then and when booting back to Linux, the FS was always unclean and e2fsck tried to fix it with the beforementioned result. I did not report it as the driver seemed to be already dead at that time. The driver still doesn't run on Vista, but the ext2fsd driver does, so I think fs-driver.org can be considered obsoleted by ext2fsd - which has its own, different problems (at least no data loss), but supports UTF-8 encoded filenames. -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Neko wrote: this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine That's actually the past... multibooting seemed way more popular ten years ago than now. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that most people - even if their machine is set up to boot multiple systems - really just use one OS per computer. On the other hand, CIFS/NFS network storage devices are cheap, and people can use them whether they dual boot, or simply have multiple machines on their network. Then too, a lot of people just use boring old thumb drives to store data that all their systems can use. -- Matthew Weigel hacker unique idempot.ent
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neko wrote: this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine That's actually the past... multibooting seemed way more popular ten years ago than now. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that most people - even if their machine is set up to boot multiple systems - really just use one OS per computer. have you done any analysis of statistical data in order to say so? otherwise all those way more popular, most people it is a big IYHO. On the other hand, CIFS/NFS network storage devices are cheap, and people can use them whether they dual boot, or simply have multiple machines on their network. Then too, a lot of people just use boring old thumb drives to store data that all their systems can use. well with NFS i'd agree, in case there is a robust free NFS implementation for MS Windows (haven't looked for that myself, as I don't seem to have NFS storage in my home LAN). WRT thumb drives, well they still need some FS to be on them, and fat32 would be a winner (for actual primitiveness thus being supported by anyone), but there is a serious (these days it is) limitation like limited maximal size of a file like 2G (must be 2^31-1 perhaps). actually NTFS seems the *only* sufficiently capable FS within the Microsoft products these days... -- Matthew Weigel hacker unique idempot.ent
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Jonathan Schleifer js-openbsd-misc at webkeks.org writes: Not only that it is GPL, it also needs fuse. AFAIK, there is no fuse for OpenBSD yet. And it's not running in the kernel space anyway, so why the hell merge it? -- Jonathan Anyone looking at/working on porting the NetBSD putter/puffs/librefuse code to OpenBSD? That seems the quickest path to fuse/ntfs-3g in openbsd.
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:57:04AM +0200, Denis Doroshenko wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neko wrote: this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine That's actually the past... multibooting seemed way more popular ten years ago than now. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that most people - even if their machine is set up to boot multiple systems - really just use one OS per computer. have you done any analysis of statistical data in order to say so? otherwise all those way more popular, most people it is a big IYHO. Yes, and English speakers typically announce this with words like seemed and I'm going to go out on a limb here.
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Denis Doroshenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: by anyone), but there is a serious (these days it is) limitation like limited maximal size of a file like 2G (must be 2^31-1 perhaps). actually NTFS seems the *only* sufficiently capable FS within the Microsoft products these days... Microsoft is actually trying to popularize fatx (the same file system used in xboxes). That's probably going to be the new fat32. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On 26 October 2008 c. 17:34:07 bofh wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Denis Doroshenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: by anyone), but there is a serious (these days it is) limitation like limited maximal size of a file like 2G (must be 2^31-1 perhaps). actually NTFS seems the *only* sufficiently capable FS within the Microsoft products these days... Microsoft is actually trying to popularize fatx (the same file system used in xboxes). That's probably going to be the new fat32. It lacks some information in header that is present in FAT32, so unlikely it'll replace FAT32. It's good for simle, I ever say dump, devices only. http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Differences_between_Xbox_FATX_and_MS-DOS_FAT -- Best wishes, Vadim Zhukov
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
If you need to write to ntfs, you're doing it wrong. On Oct 25, 2008, at 9:12 PM, Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, neko
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Denis Doroshenko wrote: have you done any analysis of statistical data in order to say so? otherwise all those way more popular, most people it is a big IYHO. William Boshuck has the measure of my response to that. On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the other hand, CIFS/NFS network storage devices are cheap, and people can use them whether they dual boot, or simply have multiple machines on their network. Then too, a lot of people just use boring old thumb drives to store data that all their systems can use. well with NFS i'd agree, in case there is a robust free NFS implementation for MS Windows (haven't looked for that myself, as I don't seem to have NFS storage in my home LAN). I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here... I'm talking about NAS devices that export their filesystem via CIFS and NFS, so that virtually every modern operating system can use it. See, for example, this device: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822111012 WRT thumb drives, well they still need some FS to be on them, and fat32 would be a winner (for actual primitiveness thus being supported by anyone), but there is a serious (these days it is) limitation like limited maximal size of a file like 2G (must be 2^31-1 perhaps). Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? -- Matthew Weigel hacker unique idempot.ent
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? dvd images are often 4.2G -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if | you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can | you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access | in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | dvd images are often 4.2G I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux and *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's (doesn't fit in fat32). Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this and had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those circumstances). Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd -- [++-]+++.+++[---].+++[+ +++-].++[-]+.--.[-] http://www.weirdnet.nl/
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? 2^31 - 1. Seems to be signed. At least, the orignal implementation from Microsoft has this limit. -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Paul de Weerd wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if | you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can | you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access | in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | dvd images are often 4.2G I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux and *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's (doesn't fit in fat32). Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this and had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those circumstances). Come on guys. I believe OpenBSD can do read/write on ext2. No? And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. Alexey
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Alexey Suslikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. Crashed my ext2 data partition more than once, but I could always recover it with e2fsck, but the files in / all lost their names then. However, the stuff in sub directories still had names. So /foo/bar was /lost+found/$inode_no/bar after e2fsck. -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:51:38PM +0200, Alexey Suslikov wrote: | Paul de Weerd wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if | | you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can | | you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access | | in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | | | dvd images are often 4.2G | | I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport | large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux and | *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's (doesn't | fit in fat32). | | Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this and | had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those | circumstances). | | Come on guys. | | I believe OpenBSD can do read/write on ext2. No? | | And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free | and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. True, but it's an external add-on that you may not always be able to install on the windows machine (which in my case usually isn't mine). OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, Mac OSX .. they all have 'native' support for FAT32. Granted, I don't see an easy solution for this issue (because in essence it would mean that all others need proper ntfs support). Cheers, Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd -- [++-]+++.+++[---].+++[+ +++-].++[-]+.--.[-] http://www.weirdnet.nl/
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alexey Suslikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. Crashed my ext2 data partition more than once, but I could always recover it with e2fsck, but the files in / all lost their names then. However, the stuff in sub directories still had names. So /foo/bar was /lost+found/$inode_no/bar after e2fsck. So? I crashed many FAT32 partitions. NTFS is kinda complex to crash but, as discussed above, it is hard to access in full-blown read/write mode from non-Windows. Don't want to use ext2? You have more choices. Go http://ffsdrv.sourceforge.net/index.php and help this guy to add write support to FFS driver for Windows. Alexey
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Alexey Suslikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I crashed many FAT32 partitions. NTFS is kinda complex to crash but, as discussed above, it is hard to access in full-blown read/write mode from non-Windows. Did you crash yoru FAT32 partitions on a regular basis? The ext2 crashed every 2 - 4 weeks. -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Paul de Weerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:51:38PM +0200, Alexey Suslikov wrote: | Paul de Weerd wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that being a problem if | | you're trying to run a database off of your thumb drive, but otherwise... can | | you give examples of files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access | | in Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | | | dvd images are often 4.2G | | I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport | large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux and | *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's (doesn't | fit in fat32). | | Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this and | had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those | circumstances). | | Come on guys. | | I believe OpenBSD can do read/write on ext2. No? | | And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free | and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. True, but it's an external add-on that you may not always be able to install on the windows machine (which in my case usually isn't mine). OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, Mac OSX .. they all have 'native' support for FAT32. Nope. Create a small FAT32 partition on this drive and put a driver on it. How small, it is your choice. It can be 32Gb (a recommended maximum for FAT32) on these modern 1TB USB drives. I believe if you google enough you'll find an Ext2 driver for MacOS. Alexey
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alexey Suslikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I crashed many FAT32 partitions. NTFS is kinda complex to crash but, as discussed above, it is hard to access in full-blown read/write mode from non-Windows. Did you crash yoru FAT32 partitions on a regular basis? The ext2 crashed every 2 - 4 weeks. So you have no choice but cry. Alexey
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sunday 26 October 2008, Paul de Weerd wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:51:38PM +0200, Alexey Suslikov wrote: | Paul de Weerd wrote: | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:01:40PM -0700, Chris Kuethe wrote: | | On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Actually, (2^32)-1, or 4GB, is the max size per file | | (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463). I can see that | | being a problem if you're trying to run a database off of | | your thumb drive, but otherwise... can you give examples of | | files that you (or anyone you know) would like to access in | | Windows and OpenBSD that exceed this limit? | | | | dvd images are often 4.2G | | I agree with Chris here .. the only time I've wanted to transport | large files between windows and basically !windows (macosx, linux | and *bsd) they were ISO's of either regular CD's (works) or DVD's | (doesn't fit in fat32). | | Happened to me on a couple of occassions that I wanted to do this | and had to resort to network transfers (non-optimal in those | circumstances). | | Come on guys. | | I believe OpenBSD can do read/write on ext2. No? | | And there is the http://www.fs-driver.org/ - also free | and do read/write on ext2 for Windows. True, but it's an external add-on that you may not always be able to install on the windows machine (which in my case usually isn't mine). OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, Mac OSX .. they all have 'native' support for FAT32. Granted, I don't see an easy solution for this issue (because in essence it would mean that all others need proper ntfs support). Hi Paul, It seems you and others are missing the obvious; If Microsoft actually wanted other operating system vendors to read and write NTFS, they would have provided the specifications. Trying to build and maintain compatibility with a vendor which specifically doesn't want you to build or maintain compatibility is an exercise in futility. There is no easy solution because Microsoft does not want an easy solution to exist. If anyone does create an easy solution, Microsoft will undoubtedly, once again, change things so they remain incompatible. --Oh and don't forget MS FAT/FAT32 is patent encumbered so the only reason why you still have native support for it is because Microsoft has not pushed the issue in the courts or taking the time to write a new incompatible version of FAT32. If you consider an ever changing, undocumented, closed source file system to be a problem, the best thing you can do is migrate to using something else. OpenBSD does provide read access to NTFS for the sake of faster migration, but even this is fairly unnecessary since one could transfer the data over a network connection. There's no reason to bloat the OpenBSD kernel with a feature designed as a fast solution to a temporary problem, namely migration. The answer is not fighting for NTFS support, instead, the answer is migrating away from NTFS. If someone absolutely insists on running something intentionally incompatible, the only viable answer is to leave them out in the cold until they change their mind. Kind Regards, Jon
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
way to be openminded. keep using what we feed you, effortlessly. somhow here , most people i know use 4 os, dos/ms/lin/bsd oddly enough freebsd / osx have compatibility by default. but they wouldnt know would they. neko i considered your mail as troll --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ? To: OpenBSD misc@openbsd.org Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 3:10 AM Neko wrote: this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine That's actually the past... multibooting seemed way more popular ten years ago than now. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that most people - even if their machine is set up to boot multiple systems - really just use one OS per computer. On the other hand, CIFS/NFS network storage devices are cheap, and people can use them whether they dual boot, or simply have multiple machines on their network. Then too, a lot of people just use boring old thumb drives to store data that all their systems can use. -- Matthew Weigel hacker unique idempot.ent
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
its shows that some poor trolls here dont own ultraportables with no external drives, and use more than one os alternative. i pass data from bsd to fat 32 so in m$ its then copy onto ntfs, i have 1 disk - 8 os, nothing is being done , but more and more ultraportables sells, yes it could be resolv into using an ext2 partition instead, but that is not resolving a problem its going around it covering eyes and ears. my stuff works, its just a pain , and ffs driver in windooz cant read more than one disklabel. bsd suggest using more than one partition, in that problem , one is the solution, next time i wont RTFM, and do as i see fit because their more opinions than guidlines. now as for backwards bsd. why does freebsd write to ntfs? why does osx write to ntfs.. seems to me that is more some obstination done not to support it. shure im doing it wrong , because nothing is being done. but shure a color-ls.pkg is more important if you ask me, SARCASTIC neko --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: misc@openbsd.org misc@openbsd.org Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 1:02 PM If you need to write to ntfs, you're doing it wrong. On Oct 25, 2008, at 9:12 PM, Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, neko
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Neko wrote: somhow here , most people i know use 4 os, dos/ms/lin/bsd OK, I'm genuinely curious: why do you run DOS on a machine that you also run Windows on? Why do you run Linux and OpenBSD on the same machine? oddly enough freebsd / osx have compatibility by default. but they wouldnt know would they. So... run FreeBSD or OS X as your fourth operating system instead of OpenBSD? I'm not sure if you noticed, but the whole REASON FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD/Linux are different projects run by different people is that they have differences of opinion on what's important, and what the right way to do something is. If you're having a problem sharing files, there are solutions far more effective than complaining on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If your goal is to solve your problem, you can solve it. -- Matthew Weigel hacker unique idempot.ent
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 8:00 PM, Neko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: shure im doing it wrong , because nothing is being done. but shure a color-ls.pkg is more important if you ask me, SARCASTIC So, what I'm seeing is that you're now being sarcastic because you want something that is not currently provided, and you feel that the best way to get the developers to see things your way is to bitch and moan? -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, neko
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:12:57 -0700 (PDT), Neko wrote: so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, neko With a GPL licence? I don't think so. (NO off-list reply is needed. replies to the From: address are tarpitted.) Rod/ /earth: write failed, file system is full cp: /earth/creatures: No space left on device
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Am 26.10.2008 um 04:05 schrieb Rod Whitworth: On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:12:57 -0700 (PDT), Neko wrote: so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, neko With a GPL licence? I don't think so. (NO off-list reply is needed. replies to the From: address are tarpitted.) Rod/ /earth: write failed, file system is full cp: /earth/creatures: No space left on device Not only that it is GPL, it also needs fuse. AFAIK, there is no fuse for OpenBSD yet. And it's not running in the kernel space anyway, so why the hell merge it? -- Jonathan -- Jonathan [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
no On Sat, 25 Oct 2008, Neko wrote: so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, neko
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
Neko wrote: so there can be an end to this retard cant write on the file system bs http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ so will it be merged in the next obsd release ? this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine, not just vm , they will local install too, so action should be taken to have a filesystem stream that can be viewed by anyone, It's GPL2. The best you can hope for is someone with the time, inclination, and ability offers a port. You will never see it in BASE.
