Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

Jay! Another sleepiness night due to the stress of how to deal with
unplanned actions of others.  I'm not one who thrives on stress, and
not one who enjoys living off 2hrs of sleep.  I hate existing like
this, it's neither healthy for my short or long term health.

What makes things difficult is that I really care about the success of
the OpenSceneGraph and VulkanSceneGraph projects. it's important to me
that people who use them/will use them have a positive experience.
This is why I work beyond my normal working hours to make each
releases are a stable as I can get then, why I work hard to fix bugs.

Part of it is also caring about the IP side, making sure don't step on
patents, copyright or trademarks,  My poor kids have to put up with my
lecturing them on the importance of respecting copyright, not copying
music, not watching bootlegged videos, what the freedoms and
responsibilities that we have.  When it comes the OpenSceneGraph and
VulkanSceneGraph is not just an academic, when it comes to other
viewing these projects as potentially infringing it's my neck on the
line, and as I'm the primarily earner in my household, it's my family
security that is on the line too.

When things happen that on the IP front that I haven't be cleared is
seriously concerning.  It doesn't matter whether it's well
intentioned, a mis-step on this front could have significant
consequences for me and my family.  This is one area of the project
that I absolutely need full control of, we have to get it right, we
can't afford mistakes.

In this instance things have got out of my control, hopefully it's
just a benign incident, but at this point in time I have no gauge on
what the risks might be.  Managing risk is the most effective way to
manage stress, so unfortunately until I know where the chips will fall
on this one it's going to have to be something I'll have to live with
and hope for the best.  And yes, this of stress is what keeps me awake
at night.

While I've tried ti coax this thread in the right direction and away
from unplanned actions, it's happened.  I clearly wasn't direct enough
with instructions to others.  Things happened that I were unexpected
to me, I really didn't consider not being briefed before any Khronos
outreach occurred and not having the opportunity to refine wording, or
regulate the time to one that worked with my own schedule.

You can't predict everything everyone might do or not do, and at what
time,  Normally I work on the approach that sharing more information
is better than sharing less, I'm naturally open in life and source
code, it's the fabric of my being.  In this instance, going public
about the VulkanSceneGraph project so early in it's life looks to have
been a mistake.  This thread, and the mis-steps taken, would never
happened had I just quietly got on with the project, and gone public
when I had concrete answers, had a chance to approach Khronos on my
own terms and when the timing was right.

I guess we all have regrets in our careers, I just never expected that
sharing news about a new open source project would be one of them...
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 at 03:51, Chris Hanson  wrote:
>
> Ok. I've done this.
>
> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues/36
>
> Maybe that will get their attention and some response.

Guys, I'm in transit on holiday, it's supposed to be a time for me to
relax, not to start thinking about damage control.  This is ABSOLUTELY
the worst time to go off half cocked.

Please, no body make any contacts with Khtonos without OK'ing things
with me first and without checking the language.  Using the wrong
name, it's VulkanSceneGraph not "Vulkan Scene Graph" is just crazy
too.

For using the Vulkan-Ecosystem/Issue I'm OK with this in principle,
it's a good idea of Mike's.  On my return form holiday it was my plan
to enter a ticket with my personal githuib account.   This way I can
answer any questions they have directly.

I can't stress this enough, don't do stuff without checking with me
first and giving me, the project lead, the opportunity to take the
first step.  Agree in principle is *not* agreeing free reign to do
whatever you want whenever you want.

I am back from holiday on the 9th of July - THIS is the date when we
can fire things back up.  Having this stuff kick off while I'm away is
a nightmare,

Please just hit pause while I'm away on holiday.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Chris Hanson]

Ok. I've done this.

https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues/36

Maybe that will get their attention and some response.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 2:54 PM Michael Weiblen 
wrote:

> I'd suggest creating a ticket at
> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues
>
> -- mew
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Robert Osfield 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 14:53, Eric Sokolowsky  wrote:
>> > Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.
>>
>> Indeed this is true.  It's only part of the story though.
>>
>> Khronos mission is to develop and promote open APIs, as part of this
>> they trademark projects they undertake, they also develop APIs then
>> promote their use.  If Khronos do view VulkanSceneGraph as potentially
>> infringing then we'll need to discuss with them about granting
>> permission to use this name, the benefit for Khronos is the it is
>> significant step in promoting their own cause.
>>
>> We have three options:
>>
>>   1) Ignore the issue, if Khronos decide they want to discuss the name
>> then deal with it then.
>>
>>   2) Reach out to Khronos and be co-operative
>>
>>   3) Change the name to something else less relevant
>>
>> Currently, approach 2 is what Chris has kicked off, no response yet,
>> so we may need to reach out a bit further.
>>
>> I am about head off on holiday for a week so won't be doing any
>> chasing up myself right away.
>>
>> With Siggraph coming up this might be a good time to reach out and
>> chat face to face. I won't personally be attending, but If you are
>> attending then let us know.
>>
>> The project is less than a month old, so I'm not too concerned about
>> things as they stand right now.  If things don't go the way I'd prefer
>> then we just fallback to 3, the design and code won't change, it'd be
>> a wasted opportunity and bit of money spent on URLs but nothing major.
>>
>> Robert
>> ___
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>> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Weiblen -- Black Hawk, Colorado USA -- http://mew.cx/
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>


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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Michael Weiblen]

I'd suggest creating a ticket at
https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues

-- mew


On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Robert Osfield 
wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 14:53, Eric Sokolowsky  wrote:
> > Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.
>
> Indeed this is true.  It's only part of the story though.
>
> Khronos mission is to develop and promote open APIs, as part of this
> they trademark projects they undertake, they also develop APIs then
> promote their use.  If Khronos do view VulkanSceneGraph as potentially
> infringing then we'll need to discuss with them about granting
> permission to use this name, the benefit for Khronos is the it is
> significant step in promoting their own cause.
>
> We have three options:
>
>   1) Ignore the issue, if Khronos decide they want to discuss the name
> then deal with it then.
>
>   2) Reach out to Khronos and be co-operative
>
>   3) Change the name to something else less relevant
>
> Currently, approach 2 is what Chris has kicked off, no response yet,
> so we may need to reach out a bit further.
>
> I am about head off on holiday for a week so won't be doing any
> chasing up myself right away.
>
> With Siggraph coming up this might be a good time to reach out and
> chat face to face. I won't personally be attending, but If you are
> attending then let us know.
>
> The project is less than a month old, so I'm not too concerned about
> things as they stand right now.  If things don't go the way I'd prefer
> then we just fallback to 3, the design and code won't change, it'd be
> a wasted opportunity and bit of money spent on URLs but nothing major.
>
> Robert
> ___
> osg-users mailing list
> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>



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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 14:53, Eric Sokolowsky  wrote:
> Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.

Indeed this is true.  It's only part of the story though.

Khronos mission is to develop and promote open APIs, as part of this
they trademark projects they undertake, they also develop APIs then
promote their use.  If Khronos do view VulkanSceneGraph as potentially
infringing then we'll need to discuss with them about granting
permission to use this name, the benefit for Khronos is the it is
significant step in promoting their own cause.

We have three options:

  1) Ignore the issue, if Khronos decide they want to discuss the name
then deal with it then.

  2) Reach out to Khronos and be co-operative

  3) Change the name to something else less relevant

Currently, approach 2 is what Chris has kicked off, no response yet,
so we may need to reach out a bit further.

I am about head off on holiday for a week so won't be doing any
chasing up myself right away.

With Siggraph coming up this might be a good time to reach out and
chat face to face. I won't personally be attending, but If you are
attending then let us know.

The project is less than a month old, so I'm not too concerned about
things as they stand right now.  If things don't go the way I'd prefer
then we just fallback to 3, the design and code won't change, it'd be
a wasted opportunity and bit of money spent on URLs but nothing major.

Robert
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Eric Sokolowsky]

Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Chris Hanson  wrote:

> I think the Vulkan compliance tests (and name usage) only applies to
> implementations OF the Vulkan API. I don't think it applies to software
> USING Vulkan.
>
> I think VulkanSceneGraph is a good and descriptive name, I just don't want
> to see a lot of activity sunk into that name and then have it torpedoed by
> Khronos as I feel might happen.
>
> Trademark holders are notably defensive about their properties, whether we
> like that or not.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 12:51 PM Curtis Rubel  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>  https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/adopters/
>>
>>  I think this page will alleviate anymore discussion, at
>> least it sounds pretty straight forward to me that as long as
>> VulcanSceneGraph passes their tests it seems OK to use the name.
>> Of course I am no a lawyer either but this text seems to be pretty
>> simple and in laymen's terms.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Curtis
>>
>> --
>> Read this topic online here:
>> http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=74159#74159
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere. xe...@alphapixel.com
> http://www.alphapixel.com/
> Training • Consulting • Contracting
> 3D • Scene Graphs (Open Scene Graph/OSG) • OpenGL 2 • OpenGL 3 • OpenGL 4
> • GLSL • OpenGL ES 1 • OpenGL ES 2 • OpenCL
> Legal/IP • Forensics • Imaging • UAVs • GIS • GPS •
> osgEarth • Terrain • Telemetry • Cryptography • LIDAR • Embedded • Mobile •
> iPhone/iPad/iOS • Android
> @alphapixel  facebook.com/alphapixel (775)
> 623-PIXL [7495]
>
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>
>
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Chris Hanson]

I also reached out to Graham Sellers about bringing the issue to Khronos,
but have not heard back yet.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:52 AM John Richardson 
wrote:

> Chris / Robert,
>
> I will make it a priority to see if I can meet with KHRONOS at SIGGRAPH
> before the OSG BOF.
>
> Oh, and while we are thinking OSG BOF, OSG BOF, OSG BOF.:-) ...:-)
>
> All purveyor's of OSG wisdom are invited to present at the OSG BOF on
> Wednesday Aug 15 [ or 15 AUG for the Europeans...:-) ...:-) ]
>
> Start making your "wish list" of topics for such inquiries for me to
> discuss.
>
> We can take this off list if that is best.
>
> John "Double Smiley" Richardson
>
> -Original Message-
> From: osg-users [mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On
> Behalf Of Robert Osfield
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 8:18 PM
> To: OpenSceneGraph Users 
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
>
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 17:01, Chris Hanson  wrote:
> > Ok, so does anyone have any actual current contacts with Khronos? I have
> a
> few distant ones but they aren't terribly responsive.
>
> I have met a few from the ARB/Khronos over the years but don't have
> any personal contacts.   If people do then please let us know rather
> chatting with them right away as going off cocked could do more damage than
> good.  If you have a contact then please email me directly and we can then
> coordinate.
>
> If there are people going to Siggraph then this might be a time to bring up
> the topic of the new scene graph and it's planned name to members of
> Khronos, again just emailing me directly will be the best way to
> coordinate.
>
> From my perspective I think the VulkanSceneGraph is by far the most
> appropriate name for the project, it is literally exactly what is says it
> is.  I also believe that it'll be a big asset to Vulkan adoption beyond the
> games industry and promotion to these sectors, and this will mean that it's
> a valuable project for Khronos to be supportive of.
>
> For now I'd like to just keep focused on making progress on the
> technical/design side, get a design paper written, though the planned
> timeline for this (late August) will be a bit late to share at Siggraph
> which is in mid August.  By Siggraph I should have a clearer idea of how
> thing will look so perhaps a draft might be possible.
> Would also like think we'll have a triangle of two rendering by then in a
> preliminary experiments.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
> ___
> osg-users mailing list
> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>
>

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Training • Consulting • Contracting
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[John Richardson]

Chris / Robert,

I will make it a priority to see if I can meet with KHRONOS at SIGGRAPH
before the OSG BOF.

Oh, and while we are thinking OSG BOF, OSG BOF, OSG BOF.:-) ...:-)

All purveyor's of OSG wisdom are invited to present at the OSG BOF on
Wednesday Aug 15 [ or 15 AUG for the Europeans...:-) ...:-) ]

Start making your "wish list" of topics for such inquiries for me to
discuss.

We can take this off list if that is best.

John "Double Smiley" Richardson

-Original Message-
From: osg-users [mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On
Behalf Of Robert Osfield
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 8:18 PM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users 
Subject: Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 17:01, Chris Hanson  wrote:
> Ok, so does anyone have any actual current contacts with Khronos? I have a
few distant ones but they aren't terribly responsive.

I have met a few from the ARB/Khronos over the years but don't have
any personal contacts.   If people do then please let us know rather
chatting with them right away as going off cocked could do more damage than
good.  If you have a contact then please email me directly and we can then
coordinate.

If there are people going to Siggraph then this might be a time to bring up
the topic of the new scene graph and it's planned name to members of
Khronos, again just emailing me directly will be the best way to coordinate.

>From my perspective I think the VulkanSceneGraph is by far the most
appropriate name for the project, it is literally exactly what is says it
is.  I also believe that it'll be a big asset to Vulkan adoption beyond the
games industry and promotion to these sectors, and this will mean that it's
a valuable project for Khronos to be supportive of.

For now I'd like to just keep focused on making progress on the
technical/design side, get a design paper written, though the planned
timeline for this (late August) will be a bit late to share at Siggraph
which is in mid August.  By Siggraph I should have a clearer idea of how
thing will look so perhaps a draft might be possible.
Would also like think we'll have a triangle of two rendering by then in a
preliminary experiments.

Cheers,
Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Chris Hanson]

I think the Vulkan compliance tests (and name usage) only applies to
implementations OF the Vulkan API. I don't think it applies to software
USING Vulkan.

I think VulkanSceneGraph is a good and descriptive name, I just don't want
to see a lot of activity sunk into that name and then have it torpedoed by
Khronos as I feel might happen.

Trademark holders are notably defensive about their properties, whether we
like that or not.



On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 12:51 PM Curtis Rubel  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>  https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/adopters/
>
>  I think this page will alleviate anymore discussion, at
> least it sounds pretty straight forward to me that as long as
> VulcanSceneGraph passes their tests it seems OK to use the name.
> Of course I am no a lawyer either but this text seems to be pretty
> simple and in laymen's terms.
>
> Cheers,
> Curtis
>
> --
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=74159#74159
>
>
>
>
>
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>


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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 17:01, Chris Hanson  wrote:
> Ok, so does anyone have any actual current contacts with Khronos? I have a 
> few distant ones but they aren't terribly responsive.

I have met a few from the ARB/Khronos over the years but don't have
any personal contacts.   If people do then please let us know rather
chatting with them right away as going off cocked could do more damage
than good.  If you have a contact then please email me directly and we
can then coordinate.

If there are people going to Siggraph then this might be a time to
bring up the topic of the new scene graph and it's planned name to
members of Khronos, again just emailing me directly will be the best
way to coordinate.

>From my perspective I think the VulkanSceneGraph is by far the most
appropriate name for the project, it is literally exactly what is says
it is.  I also believe that it'll be a big asset to Vulkan adoption
beyond the games industry and promotion to these sectors, and this
will mean that it's a valuable project for Khronos to be supportive
of.

For now I'd like to just keep focused on making progress on the
technical/design side, get a design paper written, though the planned
timeline for this (late August) will be a bit late to share at
Siggraph which is in mid August.  By Siggraph I should have a clearer
idea of how thing will look so perhaps a draft might be possible.
Would also like think we'll have a triangle of two rendering by then
in a preliminary experiments.

Cheers,
Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Curtis Rubel]

Hi,

 https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/adopters/
 
 I think this page will alleviate anymore discussion, at
least it sounds pretty straight forward to me that as long as
VulcanSceneGraph passes their tests it seems OK to use the name.
Of course I am no a lawyer either but this text seems to be pretty
simple and in laymen's terms. 

Cheers,
Curtis

--
Read this topic online here:
http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=74159#74159





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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Chris Hanson]

Ok, so does anyone have any actual current contacts with Khronos? I have a
few distant ones but they aren't terribly responsive.

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 2:39 AM Robert Osfield 
wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 09:30, Jorge Izquierdo Ciges 
> wrote:
> > It is a little bit sad to lose the Open part of the name, why not go for
> Open Vulkan Scene Graph or Open Scene Graph: Vulkan
> >
> > (The second works better as a serialized book title :P )
>
> "Open Vulkan Scene Graph" doesn't avoid the Vulkan name is no better
> than VukanSceneGraph at avoiding this possible overlap.
>
> "Open Scene Graph: Vulkan" is misleading and has the Vulkan name in it
> still.  It's mis-leading because it's not the OpenSceneGraph, it
> doesn't build upon any of it's code base, it'll be a totally different
> beast.  If we had two different backends for the OpenSceneGraph - an
> OpenGL one and Vulkan one than you might want to differentiate like
> this.  But again it's got the Vulkan name in it.
>
> Unless you have a really helpful suggestion - like Chris' offer of
> help of talking to Khronos, then there really isn't any point of
> discussion, this week I have way to much actual helpful work to get on
> with than wade though silly suggestions.
>
> Robert.
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>


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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 09:30, Jorge Izquierdo Ciges  wrote:
> It is a little bit sad to lose the Open part of the name, why not go for Open 
> Vulkan Scene Graph or Open Scene Graph: Vulkan
>
> (The second works better as a serialized book title :P )

"Open Vulkan Scene Graph" doesn't avoid the Vulkan name is no better
than VukanSceneGraph at avoiding this possible overlap.

"Open Scene Graph: Vulkan" is misleading and has the Vulkan name in it
still.  It's mis-leading because it's not the OpenSceneGraph, it
doesn't build upon any of it's code base, it'll be a totally different
beast.  If we had two different backends for the OpenSceneGraph - an
OpenGL one and Vulkan one than you might want to differentiate like
this.  But again it's got the Vulkan name in it.

Unless you have a really helpful suggestion - like Chris' offer of
help of talking to Khronos, then there really isn't any point of
discussion, this week I have way to much actual helpful work to get on
with than wade though silly suggestions.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Jorge Izquierdo Ciges]

Hi all, my 2 cents for the name.

It is a little bit sad to lose the Open part of the name, why not go for
Open Vulkan Scene Graph or Open Scene Graph: Vulkan

(The second works better as a serialized book title :P )

They are a little more clear that we are not stepping on the Kronos IP name
rights.

Regards.
J.Izquierdo

El lun., 25 jun. 2018 a las 9:03, Robert Osfield ()
escribió:

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 at 22:31, Terry Welsh  wrote:
>
> > Is it worth asking if this project will be a scene graph or a
> > rendering engine?
>
> It'll be a rendering+compute API based Vulkan that represent the Scene
> as a Graph.  VulkanSceneGraph tells people exactly what it is,
> anything else moves away from this ability literal ground truth.
>
> As I have a degree in Engineering and Computer Science to me an engine
> has cylinders, or turbines that converts chemical energy into
> mechanical work.  Use of "Engine" in gaming circles has always struck
> me as silly, co-opting words from other disciplines is really just
> marketing fluff.
>
> I like the honesty of a literal name. My technical challenge is make
> it compelling enough to deserve the moniker of *the* Vulkan Scene
> Graph.
>
> So I'm confident the name is best one for what the project is intended
> to be.  The only question has to be is whether members within Khronos
> feel that it is a threat to their trademark or reputation enough to
> step forward and ask to change.  I can't do anything about how they
> some lawyers might feel about reach of trademarks, but the better I
> can make the new scene graph the more likely it is to be seen as an
> asset to Khronos rather than a threat or hindrance.
>
> I have provided OpenGL unwavering support for 20 years, the
> OpenSceneGraph is part of the bedrock of the vis-sim industry and
> OpenGL is part of this bedrock purely because I've kept the
> OpenScenGraph focused on OpenGL.  I would hope that Khronos value this
> contribution to the OpenGL ecosystem.  It would be a bit of kick in
> the teeth for them to turn around and start being awkward now when we
> are embarking on another 20 years of unwavering and unabashed support
> for Vulkan.
>
> Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 at 22:31, Terry Welsh  wrote:

> Is it worth asking if this project will be a scene graph or a
> rendering engine?

It'll be a rendering+compute API based Vulkan that represent the Scene
as a Graph.  VulkanSceneGraph tells people exactly what it is,
anything else moves away from this ability literal ground truth.

As I have a degree in Engineering and Computer Science to me an engine
has cylinders, or turbines that converts chemical energy into
mechanical work.  Use of "Engine" in gaming circles has always struck
me as silly, co-opting words from other disciplines is really just
marketing fluff.

I like the honesty of a literal name. My technical challenge is make
it compelling enough to deserve the moniker of *the* Vulkan Scene
Graph.

So I'm confident the name is best one for what the project is intended
to be.  The only question has to be is whether members within Khronos
feel that it is a threat to their trademark or reputation enough to
step forward and ask to change.  I can't do anything about how they
some lawyers might feel about reach of trademarks, but the better I
can make the new scene graph the more likely it is to be seen as an
asset to Khronos rather than a threat or hindrance.

I have provided OpenGL unwavering support for 20 years, the
OpenSceneGraph is part of the bedrock of the vis-sim industry and
OpenGL is part of this bedrock purely because I've kept the
OpenScenGraph focused on OpenGL.  I would hope that Khronos value this
contribution to the OpenGL ecosystem.  It would be a bit of kick in
the teeth for them to turn around and start being awkward now when we
are embarking on another 20 years of unwavering and unabashed support
for Vulkan.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 at 11:13, Tim Moore  wrote:
> Just call it VSG!

That's the planned namespace :-)
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Terry Welsh]

> Just call it VSG!

There has already been a Vega Scene Graph available from MultiGen
Paradigm for years and years, so I would shy away from VSG or anything
abbreviated VSG. After all, there was some confusion with the two OSGs
last time around.

Is it worth asking if this project will be a scene graph or a
rendering engine? The primary job of OSG and other scene graphs tends
to be rendering, though the term "scene graph" is more general and can
include other scene properties like sounds, behaviors, physics, etc.
OSG is much more than just a graph data structure. Maybe "scene
engine" is more appropriate.

How about Bad Ass Scene Engine? I'm only half joking. Of course,
googling for "BASE" is a terrible idea.
- Terry
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Tim Moore]

Just call it VSG!
Tim

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 3:27 AM, Robert Osfield 
wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 00:55, Maurizio Vitale  wrote:
> > well the case of Apple (computer) vs Apple (the music company) was very
> similar: a common word and very different industries (at the time Apple was
> not in the music/multimedia industry).
>
> Khronos, a standards body, and an open source project supporting a
> Khronos API are very different entities to two commercial companies
> trying to protect their market name.
>
> It may be possible that some within Khronos might object, but as
> VulkanSceneGraph will have clear benefit for Khronos there should be a
> good case for them to support it.
>
> Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 00:55, Maurizio Vitale  wrote:
> well the case of Apple (computer) vs Apple (the music company) was very 
> similar: a common word and very different industries (at the time Apple was 
> not in the music/multimedia industry).

Khronos, a standards body, and an open source project supporting a
Khronos API are very different entities to two commercial companies
trying to protect their market name.

It may be possible that some within Khronos might object, but as
VulkanSceneGraph will have clear benefit for Khronos there should be a
good case for them to support it.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Maurizio Vitale]

>
> If the branding is very distinct, and the word itself isn't something that
> can be owned as there is lots of prior art in active use
>

well the case of Apple (computer) vs Apple (the music company) was very
similar: a common word and very different industries (at the time Apple was
not in the music/multimedia industry).
And the losers even had the name before Apple Computers was a thing.
IANAL, but I would bet that using Vulkan in the name is not going to be ok.

Maurizio

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:46 AM Robert Osfield 
wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
>
>   I am not a lawyer, but I think this is in a muddy area and it concerns
>> me. I don't think anyone here can answer this, probably the only way to
>> know is to ask Khronos directly for their interpretation in writing. But I
>> suspect the answer will be "find a different name that doesn't embed the
>> Vulkan" word mark".
>>
>>   Just hoping to avoid future pain here. I can reach out to Khronos if
>> that is what seems best to do.
>>
>
>
> The of registered trademarks is something that I have considered, but
> haven't official request permission from Khronous.  My plan is not to use
> the Vulkan logo colour, font or style in the VulkanSceneGraph logo, not
> that I've really thought too much about that, other than don't be like
> Vulkan.  Branding similar to the OpenSceneGraph would probably make sense
> as they part of the same family.  If we have to then VulcanSceneGraph would
> a bit naff fallback.
>
> If the branding is very distinct, and the word itself isn't something that
> can be owned as there is lots of prior art in active use, then I would have
> thought while a lawyer might say ohh absolutely not, in practice I suspect
> they would be unlikely to be able to defend it court.
>
> Within Khronos I suspect there will be a range of views.  Having a
> professional grade scene graph being developed explicitly on top of Vulkan
> is an asset to Vulkan adoption and promotion.  If Kronous want Vulkan to
> break out beyond the game market early adopters then the VulkanSceneGraph
> will be a great vehicle for it.  I could see that some within Khronos might
> concerned that it might be viewed as Khronos project and would detract from
> their own mission, but I'd hope this would be in the minority - or at least
> it should be as Vulkan really needs a professional grade scene graph to
> achieve widespread adoption, and having the Vulkan name in there will a
> great advert for it.
>
> I did look at the costs of trademarking VulkanSceneGraph myself but the
> for worldwide it's several tens of thousands of $ so I decided against it.
>
> I had considered finding a friendly Khronos member to introduce the
> project to with the hope that they would advocate the project.  If I were
> attending Siggraph this is when I'd do it. I am open to others taking on
> this role if they already have a good working relationship with members of
> Khronos.
>
> Getting an official OK from Khronos would be something more challenging
> and definitely require getting involved with some kinda of committee
> discussion.  Having something tangible to discuss in terms of prototype
> code and design document could be useful in this process so they can have a
> bit of confidence that the project is an asset rather than a risk.  I am
> obviously a few months away from this.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
>
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Re: [osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Chris,


  I am not a lawyer, but I think this is in a muddy area and it concerns
> me. I don't think anyone here can answer this, probably the only way to
> know is to ask Khronos directly for their interpretation in writing. But I
> suspect the answer will be "find a different name that doesn't embed the
> Vulkan" word mark".
>
>   Just hoping to avoid future pain here. I can reach out to Khronos if
> that is what seems best to do.
>


The of registered trademarks is something that I have considered, but
haven't official request permission from Khronous.  My plan is not to use
the Vulkan logo colour, font or style in the VulkanSceneGraph logo, not
that I've really thought too much about that, other than don't be like
Vulkan.  Branding similar to the OpenSceneGraph would probably make sense
as they part of the same family.  If we have to then VulcanSceneGraph would
a bit naff fallback.

If the branding is very distinct, and the word itself isn't something that
can be owned as there is lots of prior art in active use, then I would have
thought while a lawyer might say ohh absolutely not, in practice I suspect
they would be unlikely to be able to defend it court.

Within Khronos I suspect there will be a range of views.  Having a
professional grade scene graph being developed explicitly on top of Vulkan
is an asset to Vulkan adoption and promotion.  If Kronous want Vulkan to
break out beyond the game market early adopters then the VulkanSceneGraph
will be a great vehicle for it.  I could see that some within Khronos might
concerned that it might be viewed as Khronos project and would detract from
their own mission, but I'd hope this would be in the minority - or at least
it should be as Vulkan really needs a professional grade scene graph to
achieve widespread adoption, and having the Vulkan name in there will a
great advert for it.

I did look at the costs of trademarking VulkanSceneGraph myself but the for
worldwide it's several tens of thousands of $ so I decided against it.

I had considered finding a friendly Khronos member to introduce the project
to with the hope that they would advocate the project.  If I were attending
Siggraph this is when I'd do it. I am open to others taking on this role if
they already have a good working relationship with members of Khronos.

Getting an official OK from Khronos would be something more challenging and
definitely require getting involved with some kinda of committee
discussion.  Having something tangible to discuss in terms of prototype
code and design document could be useful in this process so they can have a
bit of confidence that the project is an asset rather than a risk.  I am
obviously a few months away from this.

Cheers,
Robert.
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[osg-users] The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

[Chris Hanson]

  Something came up in a conversation earlier this week that I thought I
would point out.

  Is VulkanSceneGraph potentially opening itself to
trademark-related hassle by incorporating the trademark "Vulkan" name into
its own name?

  The Khronos trademark guidelines are here:
https://www.khronos.org/legal/khronos-trademark-guidelines

  They mostly center around freely using the work Vulkan descriptively and
NOT using it when referring to an actual Vulkan implementation (which is
different from VSG's situation). The incorporation of the Vulkan word-mark
into a novel software product name (even a F/OSS package) seems like it
could run afoul of Khronos' intentions and lawyers.

  The historical example is that I doubt SGI and then Khronos would have
ever been ok with a prominent software package calling itself
"OpenGLSceneGraph" because they protect the word-mark "OpenGL".

  I am not a lawyer, but I think this is in a muddy area and it concerns
me. I don't think anyone here can answer this, probably the only way to
know is to ask Khronos directly for their interpretation in writing. But I
suspect the answer will be "find a different name that doesn't embed the
Vulkan" word mark".

  Just hoping to avoid future pain here. I can reach out to Khronos if that
is what seems best to do.

-- 
Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere. xe...@alphapixel.com
http://www.alphapixel.com/
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