Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Robert Doc Wright]

How does apple's aac compare  to mp3?
- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Matzura" 
To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?


I had OPlayer on an Android tablet once and it was pretty darn neat.
Didn't know it was available for iOS.

Re VLC, it's a fine product, but its accessibility leaves more than a
little to be desired, in my unhumble opinion.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 08:46:07 +1100, you wrote:

>You're not mistaken and that's just one App of at least half a dozen I can 
>think of, I haven't played around with VLC lately so must have a look and 
>see what improvements or changes have been made.
>
>Another of my favourite players for IOS is something called oPlayer which 
>is available in 2 versions, the free "Light" and the HD purchased version.
>
>Speaking of VLC, if you're a Windows user then you're in for a real treat 
>with this player, I use it both on Mac and Windows.
>On 8 Oct 2014, at 8:36 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>> Vlc for Iphone supports flac if i'm not misstaken.
>> Its also quite easy to use with voiceover.
>> /A
>
>**
>
>Dane Trethowan
>grtd...@internode.on.net
>Skype: grtdane12
>Phone US (213) 438-9741
>Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>Mobile: +61400494862
>faceTime +61400494862
>Fax +61397437954
>Twitter: @grtdane
>
>
>
>
>



If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?  then where does the learning 
start?

RE: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[John Gurd]

I wish I could rebuild my audio collection to a lossless one. I ripped
hundreds of CDs to high-bitrate variable MP3s and then gave most of the CDs
away. 

I'm getting interested in 24-bit hi definition audio. Can anyone recommend
accessible sites. Also I'm wondering if they would be copy-protected. I'm
assuming they would. Trouble is my experience with copy protected files in
the past suggests what you can do with the audio becomes very restricted

John
. 

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Matzura
Sent: 20 December 2014 16:40
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

I had OPlayer on an Android tablet once and it was pretty darn neat.
Didn't know it was available for iOS.

Re VLC, it's a fine product, but its accessibility leaves more than a little
to be desired, in my unhumble opinion.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 08:46:07 +1100, you wrote:

>You're not mistaken and that's just one App of at least half a dozen I can
think of, I haven't played around with VLC lately so must have a look and
see what improvements or changes have been made.
>
>Another of my favourite players for IOS is something called oPlayer which
is available in 2 versions, the free "Light" and the HD purchased version.
>
>Speaking of VLC, if you're a Windows user then you're in for a real treat
with this player, I use it both on Mac and Windows.
>On 8 Oct 2014, at 8:36 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>> Vlc for Iphone supports flac if i'm not misstaken.
>> Its also quite easy to use with voiceover.
>> /A
>
>**
>
>Dane Trethowan
>grtd...@internode.on.net
>Skype: grtdane12
>Phone US (213) 438-9741
>Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>Mobile: +61400494862
>faceTime +61400494862
>Fax +61397437954
>Twitter: @grtdane
>
>
>
>
>

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Steve Matzura]

OK--stupid question--what program can be loaded on an iOS device that
will play these other formats and get me out of the iTunes world?

On Tue, 7 Oct 2014 13:28:49 +1100, you wrote:

>You're making things terribly and unecssarely complex and complicated.
>
>Yes that's right, just replace Windows Media Player on your Windows Machine 
>with something that plays FLAC files and the same applies to your iPhone, Mac 
>etc.  In the case of iPhone and Mac no one says you have to use iTunes at all! 
>I don't for playing audio files.
>
>If you do need to or want to use iTunes then no, you can't play FLAC files 
>with iTunes however you can play Lossless AAC Audio with iTunes thus you could 
>convert your FLAC collection, Monkeys Audio Collection or whatever, even rip 
>your CD'S to a Lossless format for playback. though that's a step that I don't 
>think most most will want to take, its just far easier getting a Third party 
>player and playing the FLAC or whatever the audio is on your iPhone and 
>enjoying.
>
>On 7 Oct 2014, at 1:21 pm, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
>
>> Dane,
>> 
>> The difference is the tight integration of the Apple ecosystem in the
>> company’s mobile platform. Windows is designed to be an agnostic
>> multipurpose device. The included Windows Media Player can easily be
>> substituted with another media player, like Winamp, that supports
>> FLAC. By contrast, it is very difficult to load music files on the
>> iPhone without using iTunes. Further, Apple’s headphones are
>> integrated with the music app and the phone or tablet itself so audio
>> input and output can be managed without touching the device. Third
>> party apps have limited access to the controls on Apple headphones and
>> cannot access the built-in equalizer in the music app. The equalizer
>> on iOS allows iTunes Radio to sound so much better than Spotify,
>> Pandora and the others, as they cannot access it.
>> 
>> I fully support the notion that FLAC represents a significant
>> improvement in sound quality and that increased memory and bandwidth
>> diminish its limitations.  Unfortunately, the time for universal
>> adoption of FLAC is not now. Many have predicted for years the
>> widespread adoption of mobile payments through sell phones using near
>> Field Communications. The predictions never seem to materialize until
>> now. With the iPhone 6 series, Apple finally added NFC and is rolling
>> out a payment system. We will soon see if this technology is embraced
>> or ignored.
>> 
>> The quality of audio streaming is getting better without a doubt.
>> Streaming cannot fully replace music loaded onto a mobile device
>> though for the reasons listed earlier.
>> 
>> Kelly
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>>> Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a Windows
>>> nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party software so
>>> what's the difference?
>>> 
>>> Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will allow the
>>> playing of FLAC content as third party software is available for Windows and
>>> Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.
>>> 
>>> The point you raised is taken and a fair point indeed! this all means that
>>> MP3 and so on will be around for a great deal longer and I don't dispute
>>> that at all because its the truth.
>>> 
>>> All I say is that MP3 and alike formats have their quality limitations and
>>> FLAC - along with other Lossless formats - is now a viable alternative given
>>> that storage is cheaper,, portable and mobile devices are coming with larger
>>> memory capacities and so on.
>>> 
>>> Regarding streaming? Mp3 is being replaced by AAC and AAC+ which has a far
>>> better compression ratio, I have actually seen some FLAC streams and test a
>>> couple the BBC had experimented with quite some time ago, they worked well
>>> though quite a bit of band width is required but I'm sure that will come in
>>> time too just as the quality of streaming itself has improved out of sight
>>> over the last 20 years or so.
>>> Before I close, I did get one mobile device that could play FLAC right out
>>> of the box apart from those I've already mentioned and that was my Samsung
>>> Galaxy phone, the Playback of FLAC it seems is built-in to Android as it
>>> should be.
>>> 
>>> On 7 Oct 2014, at 11:48 am, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
>>> 
 Dane,
 
 Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
 mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
 stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
 world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
 media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
 Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
 music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
 along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
 to the phone. Unfortunately, stream

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Steve Matzura]

I had OPlayer on an Android tablet once and it was pretty darn neat.
Didn't know it was available for iOS.

Re VLC, it's a fine product, but its accessibility leaves more than a
little to be desired, in my unhumble opinion.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 08:46:07 +1100, you wrote:

>You're not mistaken and that's just one App of at least half a dozen I can 
>think of, I haven't played around with VLC lately so must have a look and see 
>what improvements or changes have been made.
>
>Another of my favourite players for IOS is something called oPlayer which is 
>available in 2 versions, the free "Light" and the HD purchased version.
>
>Speaking of VLC, if you're a Windows user then you're in for a real treat with 
>this player, I use it both on Mac and Windows.
>On 8 Oct 2014, at 8:36 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>> Vlc for Iphone supports flac if i'm not misstaken.
>> Its also quite easy to use with voiceover.
>> /A
>
>**
>
>Dane Trethowan
>grtd...@internode.on.net
>Skype: grtdane12
>Phone US (213) 438-9741
>Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>Mobile: +61400494862
>faceTime +61400494862
>Fax +61397437954
>Twitter: @grtdane
>
>
>
>
>

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Steve Matzura]

Actually no. Minimum compression yields maximum bit rate. Minimum
compression means you compress it minimally.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 06:35:02 +1100, you wrote:

>sorry, the minimum compression rate of MP3 I've seen is 32K, maximum I think 
>you meant to say is 320K.
>
>With FLAC you can control the compression rate but that doesn't make any 
>difference in audio quality, it just takes longer to compress the file the 
>smaller it is and - even then - you don't make much of a difference in the 
>actual file size, probably 1 or 2 meg per track say so - given all that - its 
>not worth bothering about.
>
>On 6 Oct 2014, at 6:24 am, Brent Harding  wrote:
>
>> Well, the minimum compression you can do with mp3 is probably 320 kbps, 
>> which is still about 4 to 1, unless some encoders can do a higher bit rate 
>> than that.
>> 
>
>**
>
>Dane Trethowan
>grtd...@internode.on.net
>Skype: grtdane12
>Phone US (213) 438-9741
>Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>Mobile: +61400494862
>faceTime +61400494862
>Fax +61397437954
>Twitter: @grtdane
>
>
>
>
>

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Steve Matzura]

See my comments re .AAC and .ALAC. Lots of non-iThings play these
formats, too, so this may be the solution for which you are looking.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 19:48:06 -0500, you wrote:

>Dane,
>
>Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
>mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
>stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
>world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
>media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
>Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
>music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
>along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
>to the phone. Unfortunately, streaming music is not available on
>subways, planes and in big buildings as well in lightly populated
>areas with no cellular service. I want music on my device for the
>times when I want music, which includes the times with no data
>service.
>
>Currently, the MP3 format still represents the means to provide
>relatively high quality audio content for the widest range of devices,
>particularly mobile ones.  I recently ripped all my CD’s to 256k MP3
>so they could play on my iPhone. I love FLAC files and have many jazz
>recordings carefully ripped to FLAC for listening on a high fidelity
>audio system at home. Most of my album listening is away from home
>though so MP3 is the format of choice until Apple supports FLAC. I
>fear this may be a long time, as only audiophiles seem to care about
>it.
>
>Kelly
>
>
>
>
>On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>> Speaking of MP3, I had great pleasure in deleting 80,000+ MP3 files from my
>> network just now, as I have everything I owned in MP3 format in FLAC - and
>> much more besides - there was very little point in keeping the collection.
>>
>> My new Wireless Hard Drive hasn't arrived yet though it will be a truly
>> welcome addition to the network and storage.
>>
>>
>> On 7 Oct 2014, at 12:23 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>> I am happy with my mp3 sound.
>>> I  can use the aac sound format to and for me thats great.
>>> /A
>>
>> **
>>
>> Dane Trethowan
>> grtd...@internode.on.net
>> Skype: grtdane12
>> Phone US (213) 438-9741
>> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>> Mobile: +61400494862
>> faceTime +61400494862
>> Fax +61397437954
>> Twitter: @grtdane
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Steve Matzura]

FLAC rules. As fast as I am able, I am rebuilding my music
collection--some 150,000 tracks-- with FLAC and APE (Monkey's
Audio--yes, that's its real name, also lossless) formatted audio
files. Now if only iStuff could play these, then I wouldn't have to
convert them to AAC or ALAC.


On Sat, 4 Oct 2014 21:44:31 -0400, you wrote:

>Hell yeah. Ah okay. I like Flac too, I've heard the ones you've uploaded and
>I love it.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
>Trethowan
>Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 3:21 PM
>To: PC Audio Discussion List
>Subject: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?
>
>FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is
>bigger than MP3 etc.
>
>The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC as
>you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.
>
>The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum
>compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these
>people create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have
>been much bigger but would have been of better quality.
>
>
>On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
>
>> No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. 
>> Since all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Dane Trethowan
>> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>> 
>> No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.
>> 
>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
>> 
>>> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. 
>>> At
>> epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> Dane
>> Trethowan
>>> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
>>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>>> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>>> 
>>> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where 
>>> to
>> purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
>>> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> **
>> 
>> Dane Trethowan
>> grtd...@internode.on.net
>> Skype: grtdane12
>> Phone US (213) 438-9741
>> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>> Mobile: +61400494862
>> faceTime +61400494862
>> Fax +61397437954
>> Twitter: @grtdane
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>**
>
>Dane Trethowan
>grtd...@internode.on.net
>Skype: grtdane12
>Phone US (213) 438-9741
>Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>Mobile: +61400494862
>faceTime +61400494862
>Fax +61397437954
>Twitter: @grtdane
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

You're not mistaken and that's just one App of at least half a dozen I can 
think of, I haven't played around with VLC lately so must have a look and see 
what improvements or changes have been made.

Another of my favourite players for IOS is something called oPlayer which is 
available in 2 versions, the free "Light" and the HD purchased version.

Speaking of VLC, if you're a Windows user then you're in for a real treat with 
this player, I use it both on Mac and Windows.
On 8 Oct 2014, at 8:36 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:

> Hi!
> Vlc for Iphone supports flac if i'm not misstaken.
> Its also quite easy to use with voiceover.
> /A

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Vlc for Iphone supports flac if i'm not misstaken.
Its also quite easy to use with voiceover.
/A
7 okt 2014 kl. 04:21 skrev Kelly Pierce :

> Dane,
> 
> The difference is the tight integration of the Apple ecosystem in the
> company’s mobile platform. Windows is designed to be an agnostic
> multipurpose device. The included Windows Media Player can easily be
> substituted with another media player, like Winamp, that supports
> FLAC. By contrast, it is very difficult to load music files on the
> iPhone without using iTunes. Further, Apple’s headphones are
> integrated with the music app and the phone or tablet itself so audio
> input and output can be managed without touching the device. Third
> party apps have limited access to the controls on Apple headphones and
> cannot access the built-in equalizer in the music app. The equalizer
> on iOS allows iTunes Radio to sound so much better than Spotify,
> Pandora and the others, as they cannot access it.
> 
> I fully support the notion that FLAC represents a significant
> improvement in sound quality and that increased memory and bandwidth
> diminish its limitations.  Unfortunately, the time for universal
> adoption of FLAC is not now. Many have predicted for years the
> widespread adoption of mobile payments through sell phones using near
> Field Communications. The predictions never seem to materialize until
> now. With the iPhone 6 series, Apple finally added NFC and is rolling
> out a payment system. We will soon see if this technology is embraced
> or ignored.
> 
> The quality of audio streaming is getting better without a doubt.
> Streaming cannot fully replace music loaded onto a mobile device
> though for the reasons listed earlier.
> 
> Kelly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>> Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a Windows
>> nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party software so
>> what's the difference?
>> 
>> Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will allow the
>> playing of FLAC content as third party software is available for Windows and
>> Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.
>> 
>> The point you raised is taken and a fair point indeed! this all means that
>> MP3 and so on will be around for a great deal longer and I don't dispute
>> that at all because its the truth.
>> 
>> All I say is that MP3 and alike formats have their quality limitations and
>> FLAC - along with other Lossless formats - is now a viable alternative given
>> that storage is cheaper,, portable and mobile devices are coming with larger
>> memory capacities and so on.
>> 
>> Regarding streaming? Mp3 is being replaced by AAC and AAC+ which has a far
>> better compression ratio, I have actually seen some FLAC streams and test a
>> couple the BBC had experimented with quite some time ago, they worked well
>> though quite a bit of band width is required but I'm sure that will come in
>> time too just as the quality of streaming itself has improved out of sight
>> over the last 20 years or so.
>> Before I close, I did get one mobile device that could play FLAC right out
>> of the box apart from those I've already mentioned and that was my Samsung
>> Galaxy phone, the Playback of FLAC it seems is built-in to Android as it
>> should be.
>> 
>> On 7 Oct 2014, at 11:48 am, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
>> 
>>> Dane,
>>> 
>>> Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
>>> mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
>>> stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
>>> world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
>>> media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
>>> Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
>>> music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
>>> along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
>>> to the phone. Unfortunately, streaming music is not available on
>>> subways, planes and in big buildings as well in lightly populated
>>> areas with no cellular service. I want music on my device for the
>>> times when I want music, which includes the times with no data
>>> service.
>>> 
>>> Currently, the MP3 format still represents the means to provide
>>> relatively high quality audio content for the widest range of devices,
>>> particularly mobile ones.  I recently ripped all my CD’s to 256k MP3
>>> so they could play on my iPhone. I love FLAC files and have many jazz
>>> recordings carefully ripped to FLAC for listening on a high fidelity
>>> audio system at home. Most of my album listening is away from home
>>> though so MP3 is the format of choice until Apple supports FLAC. I
>>> fear this may be a long time, as only audiophiles seem to care about
>>> it.
>>> 
>>> Kelly
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
 Speaking of MP3, I had great pleasure in deleting 80,000+ MP3 files from
 my

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

I've only recently myself rid the network of MP3 files, some of which have been 
there for years.

Its easier than a lot of people think when it comes to playing FLAC files on 
devices and perhaps I didn't make that very clear in previous eMail.

For example with an iPhone, you download or purchase a 3rd party App, more than 
likely the App will have some sort of Downloader built-in, put simply that 
means you can have your iPhone connect to Dropbox etc thus what files you put 
on your Dropbox from your computer or other device can then be downloaded to 
your iPhone for you to play at your convenience.


On 7 Oct 2014, at 4:02 pm, Alexandra Grünauer  wrote:

> Dane, you're right with all you say about flac files. I'm a fan myself, but
> I'll stick to mp3 for my portable players because the Plextalk Pocket
> doesn't support Flac and the IPhone storage space is so unbelievably
> expensive! An Apple policy that I'll never be able to understand.
> 
> Take care,
> Alexandra
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
>> Trethowan
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 4:29 AM
>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?
>> 
>> You're making things terribly and unecssarely complex and complicated.
>> 
>> Yes that's right, just replace Windows Media Player on your Windows
>> Machine with something that plays FLAC files and the same applies to your
>> iPhone, Mac etc.  In the case of iPhone and Mac no one says you have to
> use
>> iTunes at all! I don't for playing audio files.
>> 
>> If you do need to or want to use iTunes then no, you can't play FLAC files
>> with iTunes however you can play Lossless AAC Audio with iTunes thus you
>> could convert your FLAC collection, Monkeys Audio Collection or whatever,
>> even rip your CD'S to a Lossless format for playback. though that's a step
> that
>> I don't think most most will want to take, its just far easier getting a
> Third
>> party player and playing the FLAC or whatever the audio is on your iPhone
>> and enjoying.
>> 
>> On 7 Oct 2014, at 1:21 pm, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
>> 
>>> Dane,
>>> 
>>> The difference is the tight integration of the Apple ecosystem in the
>>> company’s mobile platform. Windows is designed to be an agnostic
>>> multipurpose device. The included Windows Media Player can easily be
>>> substituted with another media player, like Winamp, that supports
>>> FLAC. By contrast, it is very difficult to load music files on the
>>> iPhone without using iTunes. Further, Apple’s headphones are
>>> integrated with the music app and the phone or tablet itself so audio
>>> input and output can be managed without touching the device. Third
>>> party apps have limited access to the controls on Apple headphones and
>>> cannot access the built-in equalizer in the music app. The equalizer
>>> on iOS allows iTunes Radio to sound so much better than Spotify,
>>> Pandora and the others, as they cannot access it.
>>> 
>>> I fully support the notion that FLAC represents a significant
>>> improvement in sound quality and that increased memory and bandwidth
>>> diminish its limitations.  Unfortunately, the time for universal
>>> adoption of FLAC is not now. Many have predicted for years the
>>> widespread adoption of mobile payments through sell phones using near
>>> Field Communications. The predictions never seem to materialize until
>>> now. With the iPhone 6 series, Apple finally added NFC and is rolling
>>> out a payment system. We will soon see if this technology is embraced
>>> or ignored.
>>> 
>>> The quality of audio streaming is getting better without a doubt.
>>> Streaming cannot fully replace music loaded onto a mobile device
>>> though for the reasons listed earlier.
>>> 
>>> Kelly
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>>>> Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a
>>>> Windows nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party
>>>> software so what's the difference?
>>>> 
>>>> Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will
>>>> allow the playing of FLAC content as third party software is
>>>> available for Windows and Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.
>>>> 
>>>> The point you raised is taken and a fair point

RE: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Alexandra Grünauer]

Dane, you're right with all you say about flac files. I'm a fan myself, but
I'll stick to mp3 for my portable players because the Plextalk Pocket
doesn't support Flac and the IPhone storage space is so unbelievably
expensive! An Apple policy that I'll never be able to understand.

Take care,
Alexandra

> -Original Message-
> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
> Trethowan
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 4:29 AM
> To: PC Audio Discussion List
> Subject: Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?
> 
> You're making things terribly and unecssarely complex and complicated.
> 
> Yes that's right, just replace Windows Media Player on your Windows
> Machine with something that plays FLAC files and the same applies to your
> iPhone, Mac etc.  In the case of iPhone and Mac no one says you have to
use
> iTunes at all! I don't for playing audio files.
> 
> If you do need to or want to use iTunes then no, you can't play FLAC files
> with iTunes however you can play Lossless AAC Audio with iTunes thus you
> could convert your FLAC collection, Monkeys Audio Collection or whatever,
> even rip your CD'S to a Lossless format for playback. though that's a step
that
> I don't think most most will want to take, its just far easier getting a
Third
> party player and playing the FLAC or whatever the audio is on your iPhone
> and enjoying.
> 
> On 7 Oct 2014, at 1:21 pm, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
> 
> > Dane,
> >
> > The difference is the tight integration of the Apple ecosystem in the
> > company’s mobile platform. Windows is designed to be an agnostic
> > multipurpose device. The included Windows Media Player can easily be
> > substituted with another media player, like Winamp, that supports
> > FLAC. By contrast, it is very difficult to load music files on the
> > iPhone without using iTunes. Further, Apple’s headphones are
> > integrated with the music app and the phone or tablet itself so audio
> > input and output can be managed without touching the device. Third
> > party apps have limited access to the controls on Apple headphones and
> > cannot access the built-in equalizer in the music app. The equalizer
> > on iOS allows iTunes Radio to sound so much better than Spotify,
> > Pandora and the others, as they cannot access it.
> >
> > I fully support the notion that FLAC represents a significant
> > improvement in sound quality and that increased memory and bandwidth
> > diminish its limitations.  Unfortunately, the time for universal
> > adoption of FLAC is not now. Many have predicted for years the
> > widespread adoption of mobile payments through sell phones using near
> > Field Communications. The predictions never seem to materialize until
> > now. With the iPhone 6 series, Apple finally added NFC and is rolling
> > out a payment system. We will soon see if this technology is embraced
> > or ignored.
> >
> > The quality of audio streaming is getting better without a doubt.
> > Streaming cannot fully replace music loaded onto a mobile device
> > though for the reasons listed earlier.
> >
> > Kelly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
> >> Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a
> >> Windows nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party
> >> software so what's the difference?
> >>
> >> Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will
> >> allow the playing of FLAC content as third party software is
> >> available for Windows and Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.
> >>
> >> The point you raised is taken and a fair point indeed! this all means
> >> that
> >> MP3 and so on will be around for a great deal longer and I don't
> >> dispute that at all because its the truth.
> >>
> >> All I say is that MP3 and alike formats have their quality
> >> limitations and FLAC - along with other Lossless formats - is now a
> >> viable alternative given that storage is cheaper,, portable and
> >> mobile devices are coming with larger memory capacities and so on.
> >>
> >> Regarding streaming? Mp3 is being replaced by AAC and AAC+ which has
> >> a far better compression ratio, I have actually seen some FLAC
> >> streams and test a couple the BBC had experimented with quite some
> >> time ago, they worked well though quite a bit of band width is
> >> required but I'm sure that will come in time too just as the quality
> >> of streaming itself has improv

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

You're making things terribly and unecssarely complex and complicated.

Yes that's right, just replace Windows Media Player on your Windows Machine 
with something that plays FLAC files and the same applies to your iPhone, Mac 
etc.  In the case of iPhone and Mac no one says you have to use iTunes at all! 
I don't for playing audio files.

If you do need to or want to use iTunes then no, you can't play FLAC files with 
iTunes however you can play Lossless AAC Audio with iTunes thus you could 
convert your FLAC collection, Monkeys Audio Collection or whatever, even rip 
your CD'S to a Lossless format for playback. though that's a step that I don't 
think most most will want to take, its just far easier getting a Third party 
player and playing the FLAC or whatever the audio is on your iPhone and 
enjoying.

On 7 Oct 2014, at 1:21 pm, Kelly Pierce  wrote:

> Dane,
> 
> The difference is the tight integration of the Apple ecosystem in the
> company’s mobile platform. Windows is designed to be an agnostic
> multipurpose device. The included Windows Media Player can easily be
> substituted with another media player, like Winamp, that supports
> FLAC. By contrast, it is very difficult to load music files on the
> iPhone without using iTunes. Further, Apple’s headphones are
> integrated with the music app and the phone or tablet itself so audio
> input and output can be managed without touching the device. Third
> party apps have limited access to the controls on Apple headphones and
> cannot access the built-in equalizer in the music app. The equalizer
> on iOS allows iTunes Radio to sound so much better than Spotify,
> Pandora and the others, as they cannot access it.
> 
> I fully support the notion that FLAC represents a significant
> improvement in sound quality and that increased memory and bandwidth
> diminish its limitations.  Unfortunately, the time for universal
> adoption of FLAC is not now. Many have predicted for years the
> widespread adoption of mobile payments through sell phones using near
> Field Communications. The predictions never seem to materialize until
> now. With the iPhone 6 series, Apple finally added NFC and is rolling
> out a payment system. We will soon see if this technology is embraced
> or ignored.
> 
> The quality of audio streaming is getting better without a doubt.
> Streaming cannot fully replace music loaded onto a mobile device
> though for the reasons listed earlier.
> 
> Kelly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>> Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a Windows
>> nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party software so
>> what's the difference?
>> 
>> Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will allow the
>> playing of FLAC content as third party software is available for Windows and
>> Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.
>> 
>> The point you raised is taken and a fair point indeed! this all means that
>> MP3 and so on will be around for a great deal longer and I don't dispute
>> that at all because its the truth.
>> 
>> All I say is that MP3 and alike formats have their quality limitations and
>> FLAC - along with other Lossless formats - is now a viable alternative given
>> that storage is cheaper,, portable and mobile devices are coming with larger
>> memory capacities and so on.
>> 
>> Regarding streaming? Mp3 is being replaced by AAC and AAC+ which has a far
>> better compression ratio, I have actually seen some FLAC streams and test a
>> couple the BBC had experimented with quite some time ago, they worked well
>> though quite a bit of band width is required but I'm sure that will come in
>> time too just as the quality of streaming itself has improved out of sight
>> over the last 20 years or so.
>> Before I close, I did get one mobile device that could play FLAC right out
>> of the box apart from those I've already mentioned and that was my Samsung
>> Galaxy phone, the Playback of FLAC it seems is built-in to Android as it
>> should be.
>> 
>> On 7 Oct 2014, at 11:48 am, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
>> 
>>> Dane,
>>> 
>>> Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
>>> mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
>>> stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
>>> world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
>>> media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
>>> Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
>>> music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
>>> along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
>>> to the phone. Unfortunately, streaming music is not available on
>>> subways, planes and in big buildings as well in lightly populated
>>> areas with no cellular service. I want music on my device for the
>>> times when I want music, which includes the times with no data
>>> service.
>>> 
>>> Currently, the MP3

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Kelly Pierce]

Dane,

The difference is the tight integration of the Apple ecosystem in the
company’s mobile platform. Windows is designed to be an agnostic
multipurpose device. The included Windows Media Player can easily be
substituted with another media player, like Winamp, that supports
FLAC. By contrast, it is very difficult to load music files on the
iPhone without using iTunes. Further, Apple’s headphones are
integrated with the music app and the phone or tablet itself so audio
input and output can be managed without touching the device. Third
party apps have limited access to the controls on Apple headphones and
cannot access the built-in equalizer in the music app. The equalizer
on iOS allows iTunes Radio to sound so much better than Spotify,
Pandora and the others, as they cannot access it.

I fully support the notion that FLAC represents a significant
improvement in sound quality and that increased memory and bandwidth
diminish its limitations.  Unfortunately, the time for universal
adoption of FLAC is not now. Many have predicted for years the
widespread adoption of mobile payments through sell phones using near
Field Communications. The predictions never seem to materialize until
now. With the iPhone 6 series, Apple finally added NFC and is rolling
out a payment system. We will soon see if this technology is embraced
or ignored.

The quality of audio streaming is getting better without a doubt.
Streaming cannot fully replace music loaded onto a mobile device
though for the reasons listed earlier.

Kelly




On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
> Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a Windows
> nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party software so
> what's the difference?
>
> Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will allow the
> playing of FLAC content as third party software is available for Windows and
> Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.
>
> The point you raised is taken and a fair point indeed! this all means that
> MP3 and so on will be around for a great deal longer and I don't dispute
> that at all because its the truth.
>
> All I say is that MP3 and alike formats have their quality limitations and
> FLAC - along with other Lossless formats - is now a viable alternative given
> that storage is cheaper,, portable and mobile devices are coming with larger
> memory capacities and so on.
>
> Regarding streaming? Mp3 is being replaced by AAC and AAC+ which has a far
> better compression ratio, I have actually seen some FLAC streams and test a
> couple the BBC had experimented with quite some time ago, they worked well
> though quite a bit of band width is required but I'm sure that will come in
> time too just as the quality of streaming itself has improved out of sight
> over the last 20 years or so.
> Before I close, I did get one mobile device that could play FLAC right out
> of the box apart from those I've already mentioned and that was my Samsung
> Galaxy phone, the Playback of FLAC it seems is built-in to Android as it
> should be.
>
> On 7 Oct 2014, at 11:48 am, Kelly Pierce  wrote:
>
>> Dane,
>>
>> Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
>> mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
>> stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
>> world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
>> media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
>> Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
>> music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
>> along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
>> to the phone. Unfortunately, streaming music is not available on
>> subways, planes and in big buildings as well in lightly populated
>> areas with no cellular service. I want music on my device for the
>> times when I want music, which includes the times with no data
>> service.
>>
>> Currently, the MP3 format still represents the means to provide
>> relatively high quality audio content for the widest range of devices,
>> particularly mobile ones.  I recently ripped all my CD’s to 256k MP3
>> so they could play on my iPhone. I love FLAC files and have many jazz
>> recordings carefully ripped to FLAC for listening on a high fidelity
>> audio system at home. Most of my album listening is away from home
>> though so MP3 is the format of choice until Apple supports FLAC. I
>> fear this may be a long time, as only audiophiles seem to care about
>> it.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>>> Speaking of MP3, I had great pleasure in deleting 80,000+ MP3 files from
>>> my
>>> network just now, as I have everything I owned in MP3 format in FLAC -
>>> and
>>> much more besides - there was very little point in keeping the
>>> collection.
>>>
>>> My new Wireless Hard Drive hasn't arrived yet though it will be a truly
>>> welcome addition to the network and stor

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

Okay I accept that without question but you forgot to mention that a Windows 
nor a Mac computer can play FLAC files without third party software so what's 
the difference?

Third Party software or Apps are available for IOS etc that will allow the 
playing of FLAC content as third party software is available for Windows and 
Mac to allow the playing of FLAC content.

The point you raised is taken and a fair point indeed! this all means that MP3 
and so on will be around for a great deal longer and I don't dispute that at 
all because its the truth.

All I say is that MP3 and alike formats have their quality limitations and FLAC 
- along with other Lossless formats - is now a viable alternative given that 
storage is cheaper,, portable and mobile devices are coming with larger memory 
capacities and so on.

Regarding streaming? Mp3 is being replaced by AAC and AAC+ which has a far 
better compression ratio, I have actually seen some FLAC streams and test a 
couple the BBC had experimented with quite some time ago, they worked well 
though quite a bit of band width is required but I'm sure that will come in 
time too just as the quality of streaming itself has improved out of sight over 
the last 20 years or so.
Before I close, I did get one mobile device that could play FLAC right out of 
the box apart from those I've already mentioned and that was my Samsung Galaxy 
phone, the Playback of FLAC it seems is built-in to Android as it should be.

On 7 Oct 2014, at 11:48 am, Kelly Pierce  wrote:

> Dane,
> 
> Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
> mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
> stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
> world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
> media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
> Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
> music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
> along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
> to the phone. Unfortunately, streaming music is not available on
> subways, planes and in big buildings as well in lightly populated
> areas with no cellular service. I want music on my device for the
> times when I want music, which includes the times with no data
> service.
> 
> Currently, the MP3 format still represents the means to provide
> relatively high quality audio content for the widest range of devices,
> particularly mobile ones.  I recently ripped all my CD’s to 256k MP3
> so they could play on my iPhone. I love FLAC files and have many jazz
> recordings carefully ripped to FLAC for listening on a high fidelity
> audio system at home. Most of my album listening is away from home
> though so MP3 is the format of choice until Apple supports FLAC. I
> fear this may be a long time, as only audiophiles seem to care about
> it.
> 
> Kelly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
>> Speaking of MP3, I had great pleasure in deleting 80,000+ MP3 files from my
>> network just now, as I have everything I owned in MP3 format in FLAC - and
>> much more besides - there was very little point in keeping the collection.
>> 
>> My new Wireless Hard Drive hasn't arrived yet though it will be a truly
>> welcome addition to the network and storage.
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 Oct 2014, at 12:23 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi!
>>> I am happy with my mp3 sound.
>>> I  can use the aac sound format to and for me thats great.
>>> /A
>> 
>> **
>> 
>> Dane Trethowan
>> grtd...@internode.on.net
>> Skype: grtdane12
>> Phone US (213) 438-9741
>> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>> Mobile: +61400494862
>> faceTime +61400494862
>> Fax +61397437954
>> Twitter: @grtdane
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Kelly Pierce]

Dane,

Your analysis of the FLAC format omits the lack of support on Apple
mobile devices. The iPhone and iPad and their iOS operating system
stands as the most coveted and popular consumer technology in the
world. Yet, FLAC files cannot be played on these devices or Apple’s
media player, iTunes. With each passing year and no FLAC support,
Apple incrementally loses its cool ratio. Some suggest streaming
music, such as Pandora, TuneIn Radio, Slacker Radio, and iTunes Radio
along with Apple’s Music Match, as alternatives to loading music files
to the phone. Unfortunately, streaming music is not available on
subways, planes and in big buildings as well in lightly populated
areas with no cellular service. I want music on my device for the
times when I want music, which includes the times with no data
service.

Currently, the MP3 format still represents the means to provide
relatively high quality audio content for the widest range of devices,
particularly mobile ones.  I recently ripped all my CD’s to 256k MP3
so they could play on my iPhone. I love FLAC files and have many jazz
recordings carefully ripped to FLAC for listening on a high fidelity
audio system at home. Most of my album listening is away from home
though so MP3 is the format of choice until Apple supports FLAC. I
fear this may be a long time, as only audiophiles seem to care about
it.

Kelly




On 10/6/14, Dane Trethowan  wrote:
> Speaking of MP3, I had great pleasure in deleting 80,000+ MP3 files from my
> network just now, as I have everything I owned in MP3 format in FLAC - and
> much more besides - there was very little point in keeping the collection.
>
> My new Wireless Hard Drive hasn't arrived yet though it will be a truly
> welcome addition to the network and storage.
>
>
> On 7 Oct 2014, at 12:23 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>> I am happy with my mp3 sound.
>> I  can use the aac sound format to and for me thats great.
>> /A
>
> **
>
> Dane Trethowan
> grtd...@internode.on.net
> Skype: grtdane12
> Phone US (213) 438-9741
> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
> Mobile: +61400494862
> faceTime +61400494862
> Fax +61397437954
> Twitter: @grtdane
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

Speaking of MP3, I had great pleasure in deleting 80,000+ MP3 files from my 
network just now, as I have everything I owned in MP3 format in FLAC - and much 
more besides - there was very little point in keeping the collection.

My new Wireless Hard Drive hasn't arrived yet though it will be a truly welcome 
addition to the network and storage.


On 7 Oct 2014, at 12:23 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:

> Hi!
> I am happy with my mp3 sound.
> I  can use the aac sound format to and for me thats great.
> /A

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I am happy with my mp3 sound.
I  can use the aac sound format to and for me thats great.
/A
5 okt 2014 kl. 21:52 skrev Don Ball :

> I can't get files to download from hdtracks? I have installed java but with 
> ie and firefox when I click on the download link for the sampla album I get 
> page not found or such thing. I am missing a program to download these files 
> but I don't know what that is. I tried to download their manager with the 
> same results. I will not buy their products if I can't download them?
> - Original Message - From: "Brent Harding" 
> To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?
> 
> 
>> Well, the minimum compression you can do with mp3 is probably 320 kbps, 
>> which is still about 4 to 1, unless some encoders can do a higher bit rate 
>> than that.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Dane Trethowan" 
>> 
>> To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 2:21 PM
>> Subject: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?
>> 
>> 
>> FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is 
>> bigger than MP3 etc.
>> 
>> The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC as 
>> you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.
>> 
>> The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum 
>> compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these 
>> people create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have 
>> been much bigger but would have been of better quality.
>> 
>> 
>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
>> 
>>> No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. Since
>>> all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
>>> Trethowan
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
>>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>>> 
>>> No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.
>>> 
>>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At
>>> epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
>>> Trethowan
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
>>>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>>>> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>>>> 
>>>> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to
>>> purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
>>>> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> **
>>> 
>>> Dane Trethowan
>>> grtd...@internode.on.net
>>> Skype: grtdane12
>>> Phone US (213) 438-9741
>>> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>>> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>>> Mobile: +61400494862
>>> faceTime +61400494862
>>> Fax +61397437954
>>> Twitter: @grtdane
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> **
>> 
>> Dane Trethowan
>> grtd...@internode.on.net
>> Skype: grtdane12
>> Phone US (213) 438-9741
>> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>> Mobile: +61400494862
>> faceTime +61400494862
>> Fax +61397437954
>> Twitter: @grtdane
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

RE: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Hamit Campos]

Actually it is true. Itracks does cell Blu-ray disks with 96 KHZ 24 bit WAV
files. Not sure about HD tracks, but just to boint out that yes there are
Blu-Ray audio disks as it wree.

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
Trethowan
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 3:38 PM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

So long as the format is a Lossless one then I can't see any reason why the
HD format wouldn't be supported though perhaps some Lossless formats may
have limitations where sampling or byt depth is concerned.

When you talk about Blue-Ray you're talking about video formats here, not
sure what the current formats being used are.
On 6 Oct 2014, at 6:23 am, Brent Harding  wrote:

> I think they do Bluray disks, but I think you can buy downloads too. I
think they run one called itracks also, or maybe that's another one. I
downloaded some of those free and legal shows from the Etree thing, and flac
definitely has something to it that mp3's don't.
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Don Ball]

I can't get files to download from hdtracks? I have installed java but with 
ie and firefox when I click on the download link for the sampla album I get 
page not found or such thing. I am missing a program to download these files 
but I don't know what that is. I tried to download their manager with the 
same results. I will not buy their products if I can't download them?
- Original Message - 
From: "Brent Harding" 

To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?


Well, the minimum compression you can do with mp3 is probably 320 kbps, 
which is still about 4 to 1, unless some encoders can do a higher bit rate 
than that.


- Original Message - 
From: "Dane Trethowan" 

To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 2:21 PM
Subject: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?


FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is 
bigger than MP3 etc.


The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC 
as you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.


The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum 
compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these 
people create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have 
been much bigger but would have been of better quality.



On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. 
Since

all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
Trethowan
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.

On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:


Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At

epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.


-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane

Trethowan

Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?

Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to

purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.

<https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>






**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane









**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

So long as the format is a Lossless one then I can't see any reason why the HD 
format wouldn't be supported though perhaps some Lossless formats may have 
limitations where sampling or byt depth is concerned.

When you talk about Blue-Ray you're talking about video formats here, not sure 
what the current formats being used are.
On 6 Oct 2014, at 6:23 am, Brent Harding  wrote:

> I think they do Bluray disks, but I think you can buy downloads too. I think 
> they run one called itracks also, or maybe that's another one. I downloaded 
> some of those free and legal shows from the Etree thing, and flac definitely 
> has something to it that mp3's don't.
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

sorry, the minimum compression rate of MP3 I've seen is 32K, maximum I think 
you meant to say is 320K.

With FLAC you can control the compression rate but that doesn't make any 
difference in audio quality, it just takes longer to compress the file the 
smaller it is and - even then - you don't make much of a difference in the 
actual file size, probably 1 or 2 meg per track say so - given all that - its 
not worth bothering about.

On 6 Oct 2014, at 6:24 am, Brent Harding  wrote:

> Well, the minimum compression you can do with mp3 is probably 320 kbps, which 
> is still about 4 to 1, unless some encoders can do a higher bit rate than 
> that.
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Brent Harding]

Well, the minimum compression you can do with mp3 is probably 320 kbps, 
which is still about 4 to 1, unless some encoders can do a higher bit rate 
than that.


- Original Message - 
From: "Dane Trethowan" 

To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 2:21 PM
Subject: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?


FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is 
bigger than MP3 etc.


The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC as 
you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.


The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum 
compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these 
people create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have 
been much bigger but would have been of better quality.



On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. 
Since

all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
Trethowan
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.

On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:


Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At

epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.


-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane

Trethowan

Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?

Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to

purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.

<https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>






**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane









**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Brent Harding]

I think they do Bluray disks, but I think you can buy downloads too. I think 
they run one called itracks also, or maybe that's another one. I downloaded 
some of those free and legal shows from the Etree thing, and flac definitely 
has something to it that mp3's don't.


- Original Message - 
From: "Dane Trethowan" 

To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?


No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.

On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At 
epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.


-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane 
Trethowan

Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?

Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to 
purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.

<https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>






**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

RE: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Hamit Campos]

Hell yeah. Ah okay. I like Flac too, I've heard the ones you've uploaded and
I love it.

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
Trethowan
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 3:21 PM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is
bigger than MP3 etc.

The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC as
you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.

The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum
compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these
people create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have
been much bigger but would have been of better quality.


On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

> No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. 
> Since all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of 
> Dane Trethowan
> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
> To: PC Audio Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?
> 
> No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.
> 
> On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
> 
>> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. 
>> At
> epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Dane
> Trethowan
>> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>> 
>> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where 
>> to
> purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
>> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> **
> 
> Dane Trethowan
> grtd...@internode.on.net
> Skype: grtdane12
> Phone US (213) 438-9741
> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
> Mobile: +61400494862
> faceTime +61400494862
> Fax +61397437954
> Twitter: @grtdane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

I've nover used OGG, I know some people use nothing but OGG but its all the 
same, OGG, MP3, AAC and so on are Lossee formats, that is data is made 
redundant when they are created thus the quality of the compressed file has 
been compremised whereas FLAC is Lossless and no loss of audio quality occurs 
when these files are created.

Of course, one can optimise MP3 files etc to ensure that minimum loss of audio 
quality takes place .


On 5 Oct 2014, at 10:17 am, Anders Holmberg  wrote:

> Hi!
> Then i have to ask if ogg files has larger compression than mp3?
> I can't hear no difference so maybe it doesn't matter.
> /A
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Then i have to ask if ogg files has larger compression than mp3?
I can't hear no difference so maybe it doesn't matter.
/A
4 okt 2014 kl. 21:21 skrev Dane Trethowan :

> FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is 
> bigger than MP3 etc.
> 
> The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC as 
> you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.
> 
> The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum 
> compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these 
> people create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have been 
> much bigger but would have been of better quality.
> 
> 
> On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
> 
>> No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. Since
>> all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
>> Trethowan
>> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>> 
>> No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.
>> 
>> On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
>> 
>>> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At
>> epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-----
>>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
>> Trethowan
>>> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
>>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>>> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>>> 
>>> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to
>> purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
>>> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> **
>> 
>> Dane Trethowan
>> grtd...@internode.on.net
>> Skype: grtdane12
>> Phone US (213) 438-9741
>> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
>> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
>> Mobile: +61400494862
>> faceTime +61400494862
>> Fax +61397437954
>> Twitter: @grtdane
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> **
> 
> Dane Trethowan
> grtd...@internode.on.net
> Skype: grtdane12
> Phone US (213) 438-9741
> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
> Mobile: +61400494862
> faceTime +61400494862
> Fax +61397437954
> Twitter: @grtdane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

There's no such thing as a Lossless MP3 player, MP3 is a Lossee format meaning 
that - by the nature of the encoding and compression - much of the data of the 
original content compressed is thrown away.

Now if you're wondering how I play FLAC files? Well the players and 
possibilities are pretty much limitless round here now.

Obviously my Denon AVR2113 Surround-Sound receiver handles them, various Apps I 
have on the iPhone play them, the Yamaha CDN500 CD/Network/Media Player handles 
FLAC files etc.
On 5 Oct 2014, at 9:35 am, Don Ball  wrote:

> Dane do you have one of the better lossless mp3 players and are they 
> accessible?

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Don Ball]

Dane do you have one of the better lossless mp3 players and are they 
accessible?
- Original Message - 
From: "Dane Trethowan" 

To: "PC Audio Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?


Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to 
purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.

<https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>

FLAC Files was Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

FLAC is used because its far smaller than Wave and lossless though FLAC is 
bigger than MP3 etc.

The upshot of all this is that you get the full sound you'd get with FLAC as 
you would with Wave but in a smaller file size.

The joke is that MP3 files - some I've seen - have been done using minimum 
compression and so on and you have to ask the question, why didn't these people 
create FLAC files instead? The resulting FLAC files wouldn't have been much 
bigger but would have been of better quality.


On 4 Oct 2014, at 10:45 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

> No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. Since
> all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
> Trethowan
> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
> To: PC Audio Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?
> 
> No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.
> 
> On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:
> 
>> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At
> epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
> Trethowan
>> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
>> To: PC Audio Discussion List
>> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
>> 
>> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to
> purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
>> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> **
> 
> Dane Trethowan
> grtd...@internode.on.net
> Skype: grtdane12
> Phone US (213) 438-9741
> Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
> Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
> Mobile: +61400494862
> faceTime +61400494862
> Fax +61397437954
> Twitter: @grtdane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

RE: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Hamit Campos]

No sir. I was just saying I didn't realize they did other formats too. Since
all I keep hearing about is the WAV files.

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
Trethowan
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:19 AM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.

On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At
epic awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane
Trethowan
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
> To: PC Audio Discussion List
> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
> 
> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to
purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
> 
> 
> 
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

Re: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

No reason why you can't have HD music in different formats.

On 4 Oct 2014, at 1:51 pm, Hamit Campos  wrote:

> Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At epic 
> awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane 
> Trethowan
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
> To: PC Audio Discussion List
> Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?
> 
> Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to 
> purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
> <https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>
> 
> 
> 
> 

**

Dane Trethowan
grtd...@internode.on.net
Skype: grtdane12
Phone US (213) 438-9741
Phone U.K. 01245 79 0598
Phone Australia (03) 9005 8589
Mobile: +61400494862
faceTime +61400494862
Fax +61397437954
Twitter: @grtdane

RE: Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Hamit Campos]

Ha, I thought HD tracks sold stuff in PCM. Blu-Ray PCM might I add. At epic 
awesome 96 KHZ 24 bit.

-Original Message-
From: Pc-audio [mailto:pc-audio-boun...@pc-audio.org] On Behalf Of Dane 
Trethowan
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 9:03 PM
To: PC Audio Discussion List
Subject: Time To Purchase FLAC?

Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to 
purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.
<https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php>

Time To Purchase FLAC?

[Dane Trethowan]

Going through my stack of eMail, someone wanted to know how and where to 
purchase Music in FLAC audio format? I suggest they start here.