Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[P. J. Alling]

More wishful thinking, much like fusion power is only 10 years away.  
There seems to be a hard stop for humans at about 115 years.   The 
oldest person in the world is usually a woman 114 years old, and that 
stays constant, while the individual holding that record changes every 
couple of weeks to couple of months.


Modern medicine has managed to shift the mode and median closer to the 
mean, and the mean closer to the far end of the range, but hasn't really 
changed the range all that much in lifespans, and has managed to do that 
mostly by eliminating childhood, especially early childhood mortality.


When we have a well documented individual who has managed to actually 
managed to live beyond 116 years let me know.


On 7/13/2019 7:50 AM, Alan C wrote:
They say the first person to live to 200 is already alive. It may well 
be you!


BTW, I thought you guys over there were heavy into cycling?

Alan C

On 13-Jul-19 12:15 PM, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 12.07.19 um 22:38 schrieb Paul Stenquist:

DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are on the 
near horizon.


All this is good and well for people living in the suburbs or the
countryside. But what about us city dwellers? Most people in Europe live
in urban appartments and we have no roof to put our PV systems and no
garages or driveways to charge our cars. We can't just dangle a cable
out of a window on the 3rd floor because that would require finding a
spot for parking below said window. Might work once every two or three
years...

I'm afraid our future will be one without owning cars. We already have a
number of car-sharing companies around and they look like the solution
for the mid-term future. I've had a look at their prices and they'd be
acceptable if I restricted my driving to the bare minimum, i.e. no more
shopping trips to neighbouring Belgium and no more leisurely drive
across the countryside. Then again, sooner than later we won't be able
to afford any of this. They're currently discussing a CO2 tax that would
double or triple our fuel prices and that would be the end of it anyway.

Being from a generation that has grown up with cars and individual
mobility, I'll be 65 in a few weeks and I must say the idea that I won't
be around in 10 or 20 years has lost a lot of its horror recently.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de





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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[P. J. Alling]

There might be more discuss if Ricoh released something new more 
often.   Sure they've jumped on the bandwagon of ultra corrected primes, 
but a new improved body?  Ricoh: Nah, we're good bro.


On 7/12/2019 6:18 PM, John wrote:

Maybe Ricoh could undertake a joint venture with Toyota?

On 7/12/2019 17:29:16, jtainter wrote:

Interesting discussion.

There's not much discussion of Pentax gear on this list, but bring up 
cars and the guys all jump in.


Joe







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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

On 7/17/2019 02:20:48, Bob Pdml wrote:



Sounds like you need an electric cargo bike
https://www.ft.com/content/77dcaafe-cdc9-11e6-864f-20dcb35cede2



According to that link, what I need is a subscription to "Financial Times" in 
order to read the article. 8^P


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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Steve Cottrell]

On 16/7/19, John, discombobulated, unleashed:

>The Liberty is "close enough for government work", so as far as I'm concerned 
>it's a "Jeep".



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[mike wilson]

> On 16 July 2019 at 23:53 l...@red4est.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd gladly pay you Tuesday für a freie Bürger today.

I was in a Wimpy bar at Easter.  Not particularly to buy anything but because I 
haven't seen one in decades.

> 
> On July 16, 2019 2:45:53 PM PDT, Ralf R Radermacher  wrote:
> >Am 16.07.19 um 19:42 schrieb John:
> >
> >> Couldn't do that in the U.S.; violates our 2nd Amendment rights or
> >> something ...
> >
> >We have the German Automobile Club (ADAC) for this. They've been
> >campaigning against speed limits for years with the slogan:
> >
> >"Green light for free citizens." (Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger)
> >

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bob Pdml]

> On 16 Jul 2019, at 18:37, John  wrote:
> 
>> 
> 
> I don't think the speed restriction would be that much of a problem the way I 
> envision using it.
> 
> Since I retired, more than 90% of my driving takes me someplace within 10 
> miles of my house. And the speed limits between here and there are mostly 35 
> mph or lower.
> 
> I do understand it's not much more than a fancied up golf cart, so I'd have 
> to be careful of all the idiots on the road, but I already have to do that 
> anyway.
> 
> It would be useful for the nine days out of ten driving where I never put 
> more than 10 miles on the odometer.
> 

Sounds like you need an electric cargo bike
https://www.ft.com/content/77dcaafe-cdc9-11e6-864f-20dcb35cede2

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

On 7/16/2019 16:59:25, Steve Cottrell wrote:

On 16/7/19, John, discombobulated, unleashed:


Jeep Liberty


That's not a Jeep matey.

THIS is a Jeep :-)





Technically, that ain't a "Jeep" either because it doesn't have an 'M' model 
designation. It ain't an "MB", "M38" or "M151"


The Liberty is "close enough for government work", so as far as I'm concerned 
it's a "Jeep".




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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[lrc]

I'd gladly pay you Tuesday für a freie Bürger today.

On July 16, 2019 2:45:53 PM PDT, Ralf R Radermacher  wrote:
>Am 16.07.19 um 19:42 schrieb John:
>
>> Couldn't do that in the U.S.; violates our 2nd Amendment rights or
>> something ...
>
>We have the German Automobile Club (ADAC) for this. They've been
>campaigning against speed limits for years with the slogan:
>
>"Green light for free citizens." (Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger)
>
>Ralf
>
>--
>Ralf R. Radermacher  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
>Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
>Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
>Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de
>
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[lrc]

Ahem

https://youtu.be/VTwXwg82gC8

On July 16, 2019 1:59:25 PM PDT, Steve Cottrell  wrote:
>On 16/7/19, John, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>Jeep Liberty
>
>That's not a Jeep matey.
>
>THIS is a Jeep :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>
>Cheers,
>  Cotty
>
>
>___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and
>||  (O)  |Live Broadcast News
>--
>_
>
>
>
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 16.07.19 um 19:42 schrieb John:


Couldn't do that in the U.S.; violates our 2nd Amendment rights or
something ...


We have the German Automobile Club (ADAC) for this. They've been
campaigning against speed limits for years with the slogan:

"Green light for free citizens." (Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger)

Ralf

--
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Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Steve Cottrell]

On 16/7/19, John, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Jeep Liberty

That's not a Jeep matey.

THIS is a Jeep :-)






-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bill]

On 7/16/2019 12:30 PM, John wrote:
Yeah, but don't you live out in the middle of nowhere in western Ontario 
or Manitoba? Those trucks make a lot more sense where you live than 
Mustangs make in the U.K.


A small city of 200K in Saskatchewan. Most of these vehicles never see 
more work than the occasional set of golf clubs. They are used mostly as 
oversized sedans.
However,  our winters are long and harsh and 4x4 1/2 tons handle that 
better than cars.
I drive a diesel powered Nissan Titan, which sees even less work than 
most as I don't golf, but I do tow a trailer for some 25% of my driving, 
and I like the size, weight and power that this truck has.
My trailer is just big enough that I never felt like I was fully in 
control with my gas powered Titan, this one has about 1500 lbs more 
weight, a foot and a half longer wheel base and a third more torque than 
the gasser. I feel a lot safer now.
I also have fun intimidating people in cars that are small enough to 
park in the box of my truck :)


bill



On 7/16/2019 08:52:37, William Robb wrote:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 10:50 PM mike wilson  
wrote:



Even odder, full-size Mustangs are selling like hot cakes here.



Full size pick up trucks here. It feels like about half of what is on our
roads are trucks. The Ford F150 is the #1 selling vehicle here 
followed by

the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram.









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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

Yeah, but don't you live out in the middle of nowhere in western Ontario or 
Manitoba? Those trucks make a lot more sense where you live than Mustangs make 
in the U.K.



On 7/16/2019 08:52:37, William Robb wrote:

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 10:50 PM mike wilson  wrote:


Even odder, full-size Mustangs are selling like hot cakes here.



Full size pick up trucks here. It feels like about half of what is on our
roads are trucks. The Ford F150 is the #1 selling vehicle here followed by
the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram.






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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

Well ... I am now driving a Jeep.

I wanted a Jeep for a while so I could go out west where there are places in the 
National Parks that *require* 4wd for entrance. In November 2017, I lucked on to 
a 15-year old low mileage (43,795), 4WD, 5-speed, V6 Jeep Liberty ... for only $6k.


Then life intervened - as it so often does - my little brother found himself in 
a pinch with no transportation, so he ended up taking my little Focus wagon.


The Jeep isn't quite as good on gas as the Focus was, although I think it will 
do better if I ever get the time to take that long trip I've been planning for 
so long ... if *Life* will just get out of the effin' way. I've put a little 
over 7,500 miles in 20 months.


I have managed to make one trip down to Corolla, NC where there's a beach that's 
4WD only [1]. I went down to photograph Wild Horses; some of the last remaining 
PURE BREED Spanish Mustangs in North America.


http://www.ncwildhorses.com/corolla.htm

They're out on the beach during the summer ... so, of course, I was there in the 
winter when they're sheltering back behind the dunes & not very photogenic.


But that only means I need to go back again ... before next winter.


On 7/16/2019 03:16:00, jco...@iinet.net.au wrote:

They do here too!  The possible exception, but I have to add huge great
SUV's are very popular - both with tradesmen and inner-city yuppies (who
never go on a dirt road)!  Even my granddaughter, at 18, wanted to buy a
Ford F250, until I pointed out it would require her to spend her entire
weekly income on fuel.

John in Brisbane




-Original Message-
From: PDML  On Behalf Of mike wilson
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July 2019 2:50 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: RE: Paul's NYTimes piece

Even odder, full-size Mustangs are selling like hot cakes here.


On 16 July 2019 at 00:35 jco...@iinet.net.au wrote:


Odd - years ago in Australia everyone had a big, American-style

gas-guzzler: even my mother had a Chrysler Charger as her daily drive. Now,
the most popular cars are Toyota Corollas and Camrys, and the Camry is
classed as a big car.

I drive a Honda City - cheap, at under $20k, but comfortable,

well-equipped, and cheap to run at 5-7litres per 100k consumption.  I seldom
drive more than 100k in a day, so it's much more practical than a bigger,
more expensive car.


John in Brisbane





[1]  It's not, as far as I can see, enforced by anything except for how much 
it's going to cost you to get towed out if you get stuck.


Out west they impound your vehicle if they catch you in there without 4WD & it's 
a whopping big fine PLUS the BIG towing charge if you want to get it back



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

On 7/15/2019 04:46:45, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 15.07.19 um 06:45 schrieb Larry Colen:


Cars for driving on the street with upwards of 500 hp are not rare.


Just imagine the gas mileage we could get from cars with less power
which would not need to be built for safety at speeds far beyond 200
km/h. I pray every day that our government will at last introduce a
general speed limit on our motorways. It wouldn't even change much
because large parts are already under speed restrictions but there'd be
no more need to build all cars for this nonsense. Their whole design
could be made far lighter and leaner.



Couldn't do that in the U.S.; violates our 2nd Amendment rights or something ...

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

On 7/14/2019 15:14:01, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 14.07.19 um 20:07 schrieb John:


I think I've mentioned this one before.

https://www.aixam-pro.com/fr/e-truck/fourgon

I'd buy one if they were available in the U.S. It's got ample room in
the back for musical instruments and/or camera gear.


In Dunkirk where we spend part of year the diesel version is quite
popular with pensioners for taking their fishing gear to the beach.

BUT...

You are aware that they're restricted to a max speed of 28 mph and even
at that speed offer no protection to speak of if you collide with
anything more solid than a cream pie?

We don't have them here in Germany but the French papers are full of
gruesome pictures from accidents involving those vehicles.

Ralf



I don't think the speed restriction would be that much of a problem the way I 
envision using it.


Since I retired, more than 90% of my driving takes me someplace within 10 miles 
of my house. And the speed limits between here and there are mostly 35 mph or lower.


I do understand it's not much more than a fancied up golf cart, so I'd have to 
be careful of all the idiots on the road, but I already have to do that anyway.


It would be useful for the nine days out of ten driving where I never put more 
than 10 miles on the odometer.




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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[William Robb]

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 10:50 PM mike wilson  wrote:

> Even odder, full-size Mustangs are selling like hot cakes here.
>

Full size pick up trucks here. It feels like about half of what is on our
roads are trucks. The Ford F150 is the #1 selling vehicle here followed by
the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram.

>
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RE: Paul's NYTimes piece

[jcoyle]

They do here too!  The possible exception, but I have to add huge great
SUV's are very popular - both with tradesmen and inner-city yuppies (who
never go on a dirt road)!  Even my granddaughter, at 18, wanted to buy a
Ford F250, until I pointed out it would require her to spend her entire
weekly income on fuel.

John in Brisbane




-Original Message-
From: PDML  On Behalf Of mike wilson
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July 2019 2:50 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: RE: Paul's NYTimes piece

Even odder, full-size Mustangs are selling like hot cakes here.

> On 16 July 2019 at 00:35 jco...@iinet.net.au wrote:
> 
> 
> Odd - years ago in Australia everyone had a big, American-style
gas-guzzler: even my mother had a Chrysler Charger as her daily drive. Now,
the most popular cars are Toyota Corollas and Camrys, and the Camry is
classed as a big car.
> I drive a Honda City - cheap, at under $20k, but comfortable,
well-equipped, and cheap to run at 5-7litres per 100k consumption.  I seldom
drive more than 100k in a day, so it's much more practical than a bigger,
more expensive car.
> 
> John in Brisbane
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: PDML  On Behalf Of Ralf R Radermacher
> Sent: Monday, 15 July 2019 6:47 PM
> To: pdml@pdml.net
> Subject: Re: Paul's NYTimes piece
> 
> Am 15.07.19 um 06:45 schrieb Larry Colen:
> 
> > Cars for driving on the street with upwards of 500 hp are not rare.
> 
> Just imagine the gas mileage we could get from cars with less power which
would not need to be built for safety at speeds far beyond 200 km/h. I pray
every day that our government will at last introduce a general speed limit
on our motorways. It wouldn't even change much because large parts are
already under speed restrictions but there'd be no more need to build all
cars for this nonsense. Their whole design could be made far lighter and
leaner.
> 
> Belgian motorways have been restricted to 120 km/h for decades. As a
result, driving there is much more relaxed than here in Germany where you
have the lorries on the right lane, the middle lane owners club  at
> 110 km/h and the guys in their black Audis and BMWs gunning down the left
lane at whatever speed they can do so. A madhouse on wheels.
> 
> I heard this morning that the regional government of Brussels has just
decided to turn the whole town into a 30 km/h zone (18 mph) in 2021.
> Noone needs a Cayenne or a RAM under these conditions but still the
Belgians buy them as if their salvation depended on it.
> 
> Our cars have become ever heavier, bigger and most of all wider. On the
average European car park, the average car hardly fits between the white
lines nowadays. All this has gone totally out of hand.
>

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RE: Paul's NYTimes piece

[mike wilson]

Even odder, full-size Mustangs are selling like hot cakes here.

> On 16 July 2019 at 00:35 jco...@iinet.net.au wrote:
> 
> 
> Odd - years ago in Australia everyone had a big, American-style gas-guzzler: 
> even my mother had a Chrysler Charger as her daily drive. Now, the most 
> popular cars are Toyota Corollas and Camrys, and the Camry is classed as a 
> big car.
> I drive a Honda City - cheap, at under $20k, but comfortable, well-equipped, 
> and cheap to run at 5-7litres per 100k consumption.  I seldom drive more than 
> 100k in a day, so it's much more practical than a bigger, more expensive car.
> 
> John in Brisbane
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: PDML  On Behalf Of Ralf R Radermacher
> Sent: Monday, 15 July 2019 6:47 PM
> To: pdml@pdml.net
> Subject: Re: Paul's NYTimes piece
> 
> Am 15.07.19 um 06:45 schrieb Larry Colen:
> 
> > Cars for driving on the street with upwards of 500 hp are not rare.
> 
> Just imagine the gas mileage we could get from cars with less power which 
> would not need to be built for safety at speeds far beyond 200 km/h. I pray 
> every day that our government will at last introduce a general speed limit on 
> our motorways. It wouldn't even change much because large parts are already 
> under speed restrictions but there'd be no more need to build all cars for 
> this nonsense. Their whole design could be made far lighter and leaner.
> 
> Belgian motorways have been restricted to 120 km/h for decades. As a result, 
> driving there is much more relaxed than here in Germany where you have the 
> lorries on the right lane, the middle lane owners club  at
> 110 km/h and the guys in their black Audis and BMWs gunning down the left 
> lane at whatever speed they can do so. A madhouse on wheels.
> 
> I heard this morning that the regional government of Brussels has just 
> decided to turn the whole town into a 30 km/h zone (18 mph) in 2021.
> Noone needs a Cayenne or a RAM under these conditions but still the Belgians 
> buy them as if their salvation depended on it.
> 
> Our cars have become ever heavier, bigger and most of all wider. On the 
> average European car park, the average car hardly fits between the white 
> lines nowadays. All this has gone totally out of hand.
>

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RE: Paul's NYTimes piece

[jcoyle]

Odd - years ago in Australia everyone had a big, American-style gas-guzzler: 
even my mother had a Chrysler Charger as her daily drive. Now, the most popular 
cars are Toyota Corollas and Camrys, and the Camry is classed as a big car.
I drive a Honda City - cheap, at under $20k, but comfortable, well-equipped, 
and cheap to run at 5-7litres per 100k consumption.  I seldom drive more than 
100k in a day, so it's much more practical than a bigger, more expensive car.

John in Brisbane



-Original Message-
From: PDML  On Behalf Of Ralf R Radermacher
Sent: Monday, 15 July 2019 6:47 PM
To: pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

Am 15.07.19 um 06:45 schrieb Larry Colen:

> Cars for driving on the street with upwards of 500 hp are not rare.

Just imagine the gas mileage we could get from cars with less power which would 
not need to be built for safety at speeds far beyond 200 km/h. I pray every day 
that our government will at last introduce a general speed limit on our 
motorways. It wouldn't even change much because large parts are already under 
speed restrictions but there'd be no more need to build all cars for this 
nonsense. Their whole design could be made far lighter and leaner.

Belgian motorways have been restricted to 120 km/h for decades. As a result, 
driving there is much more relaxed than here in Germany where you have the 
lorries on the right lane, the middle lane owners club  at
110 km/h and the guys in their black Audis and BMWs gunning down the left lane 
at whatever speed they can do so. A madhouse on wheels.

I heard this morning that the regional government of Brussels has just decided 
to turn the whole town into a 30 km/h zone (18 mph) in 2021.
Noone needs a Cayenne or a RAM under these conditions but still the Belgians 
buy them as if their salvation depended on it.

Our cars have become ever heavier, bigger and most of all wider. On the average 
European car park, the average car hardly fits between the white lines 
nowadays. All this has gone totally out of hand.

Ralf

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 15.07.19 um 06:45 schrieb Larry Colen:


Cars for driving on the street with upwards of 500 hp are not rare.


Just imagine the gas mileage we could get from cars with less power
which would not need to be built for safety at speeds far beyond 200
km/h. I pray every day that our government will at last introduce a
general speed limit on our motorways. It wouldn't even change much
because large parts are already under speed restrictions but there'd be
no more need to build all cars for this nonsense. Their whole design
could be made far lighter and leaner.

Belgian motorways have been restricted to 120 km/h for decades. As a
result, driving there is much more relaxed than here in Germany where
you have the lorries on the right lane, the middle lane owners club  at
110 km/h and the guys in their black Audis and BMWs gunning down the
left lane at whatever speed they can do so. A madhouse on wheels.

I heard this morning that the regional government of Brussels has just
decided to turn the whole town into a 30 km/h zone (18 mph) in 2021.
Noone needs a Cayenne or a RAM under these conditions but still the
Belgians buy them as if their salvation depended on it.

Our cars have become ever heavier, bigger and most of all wider. On the
average European car park, the average car hardly fits between the white
lines nowadays. All this has gone totally out of hand.

Ralf

--
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Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Alan C]

You paint a gloomy picture. The real problem is too many people. Thank 
goodness I live in Phalaborwa!


Alan C

On 14-Jul-19 09:14 PM, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 14.07.19 um 20:07 schrieb John:


I think I've mentioned this one before.

https://www.aixam-pro.com/fr/e-truck/fourgon

I'd buy one if they were available in the U.S. It's got ample room in
the back for musical instruments and/or camera gear.


In Dunkirk where we spend part of year the diesel version is quite
popular with pensioners for taking their fishing gear to the beach.

BUT...

You are aware that they're restricted to a max speed of 28 mph and even
at that speed offer no protection to speak of if you collide with
anything more solid than a cream pie?

We don't have them here in Germany but the French papers are full of
gruesome pictures from accidents involving those vehicles.

Ralf

--
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Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de




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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Larry Colen]

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote on 7/14/19 7:25 PM:

As a car guy most of my life, I have a certain nostalgia for when it was fun.

It isn't any more, not for me at least except on rare occasion. I drive less 
and less because it's just too irritating to drive much any more, and foresee 
the day when I sell my nice car and buy some utility vehicle for the absolute 
necessities of transporting stuff that is impractical to carry on bicycle or 
public transport only.


The sort of fun that you can have with cars has definitely changed.  The 
modifications that you can make with a daily driver are much more 
limited in many ways, but you can buy a Honda Civic with more horsepower 
than the Corvette my dad had just before I was born, and he had checked 
every performance option off the list.


Cars for driving on the street with upwards of 500 hp are not rare. You 
can pick up a Dodge Hellcat with 800 hp for $72k, or about $12k in 1973 
dollars.


Since these cars are fresh off the showroom floor, not only do they have 
more horsepower than cars did 30, 40, 50 years ago, they also handle 
better, are safer and get better gas mileage, for less than it would 
cost to upgrade a base model to that performance.


When I started driving a bit over 40 years ago, I pretty much had carte 
blanche on the local mountain roads, there were only a few that were 
patrolled and the cops didn't have radar. Plus, traffic was lighter. 
These days if you want a fun, clean, run over hwy 9 or bear creek you 
pretty much need to do it between 9 and 10 am on a weekday.


On the bright side, 32 years ago, there weren't a lot of opportunities 
to take a daily driver out on the racetrack, unless you belonged to 
certain marque clubs.  If you wanted to drive on the track, around here 
anyways, you pretty much had your choice of building an SCCA racecar.


These days you can go to most tracks, almost any week, for a track day, 
in your daily driver for between $200 and $400.  Once your skills have 
developed to a certain level, you can go out in the advanced, open 
passing, groups and drive pretty much as hard and fast as most people 
would want.


If you don't want to risk your car on the track, accidents at track days 
are rare, but they do happen, there are plenty of opportunities to rent 
track prepared cars.


It's not that you can't have fun with a car anymore, it's just different 
fun, and in many ways, much more fun than what was available 35-40 years 
ago.



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

As a car guy most of my life, I have a certain nostalgia for when it was fun. 

It isn't any more, not for me at least except on rare occasion. I drive less 
and less because it's just too irritating to drive much any more, and foresee 
the day when I sell my nice car and buy some utility vehicle for the absolute 
necessities of transporting stuff that is impractical to carry on bicycle or 
public transport only. 

And that something will likely be either solar-charged electric or one of the 
hybrid variants, I think. 

Cars and the pursuit of personal transport freedom went too far. They've cost 
us as a society vast amounts of money, real estate, and precious resources, 
never mind the amount of pollution and waste they've brought into the world. It 
is time to think differently about the question of personal transport and 
approach it from another angle.

Now back to photography … I made a nice little set of birthday cards today and 
mailed them to the folks I made them for. You've seen all the photos I used. 
Very satisfying and pleasing. :-)

onwards!
G
—
"Simplify, simplify, simplify.” ~ Henry David Thoreau
"One 'simplify' would have sufficed." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 14.07.19 um 20:07 schrieb John:


I think I've mentioned this one before.

https://www.aixam-pro.com/fr/e-truck/fourgon

I'd buy one if they were available in the U.S. It's got ample room in
the back for musical instruments and/or camera gear.


In Dunkirk where we spend part of year the diesel version is quite
popular with pensioners for taking their fishing gear to the beach.

BUT...

You are aware that they're restricted to a max speed of 28 mph and even
at that speed offer no protection to speak of if you collide with
anything more solid than a cream pie?

We don't have them here in Germany but the French papers are full of
gruesome pictures from accidents involving those vehicles.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 14.07.19 um 19:42 schrieb John:


I suspect the future for city dwellers is going to be community systems;
shared resources.


This is no longer the future. It's already here. Sooner or later, we
won't be able to afford a car. I already pay 1200 euros per year for a
place in an underground car park. For the last five years, two levels of
this car park have been leased to a car sharing company.

Since the beginning of this month, the city has been swamped with
e-scooters which are now also competing for the little room there is on
our streets.

Meanwhile, they're making the place ever more unattractive for car traffic.

Our former grand avenues have been reduced to one lane per direction
with a restriction of 30 km/h (18 mph) and speed cams at every corner.
Loading or unloading in front of the building where we live is a
constant race against the city's traffic wardens.


The PV system on the roof will provide service for all
of the building's tenants. You'll share both the cost & the benefits.


And we will be paying taxes for the electricity we generate with our own
PV systems. This is the closest thing they've ever come to a sunshine tax.

Ralf

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Larry Colen]

John wrote on 7/14/19 11:07 AM:

On 7/13/2019 00:08:19, Larry Colen wrote:



Paul Stenquist wrote on 7/12/19 8:18 AM:

Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually 
see cars with 400 mile range and much faster charging.

Paul



For most people, an EV would handle the vast majority of their needs.  
I was just suggesting to a friend that if he wants an EV for daily 
use, but occasionally needs to take long trips, he would do well to 
own two cars, a nice EV and a not so nice IC car.




I think I've mentioned this one before.

https://www.aixam-pro.com/fr/e-truck/fourgon


That looks nearly as good, and almost as comfortable as a 2CV. Actually, 
it looks like what happened after a 2CV went on a bender and had a 
drunken one night stand with a golf cart.


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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

On 7/13/2019 00:08:19, Larry Colen wrote:



Paul Stenquist wrote on 7/12/19 8:18 AM:

Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see cars 
with 400 mile range and much faster charging.

Paul



For most people, an EV would handle the vast majority of their needs.  I was 
just suggesting to a friend that if he wants an EV for daily use, but 
occasionally needs to take long trips, he would do well to own two cars, a nice 
EV and a not so nice IC car.




I think I've mentioned this one before.

https://www.aixam-pro.com/fr/e-truck/fourgon

I'd buy one if they were available in the U.S. It's got ample room in the back 
for musical instruments and/or camera gear.


I think it could provide for all of my transportation needs with the exception 
of the occasional trip to Grandfather Mountain ...


Chevy is in a good position for the following business model.  If you buy a 
bolt, you can rent an Internal Combustion car for some reduced rate (maybe even 
something like 24 days a year for free). Likewise, they could even arrange it 
that while your bolt is being on exchange, they could rent it out to someone else.


It might even make more sense for them to do it as a lease, they own the car, 
and you have a timeshare lease on whichever car you need for the moment.


Note the above is not a detailed business plan, but just some very broad 
strokes.




The problem with most vehicle sharing plans I'm aware of is they're not really 
tailored for people who need a car every day.



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

On 7/13/2019 06:15:21, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 12.07.19 um 22:38 schrieb Paul Stenquist:


DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are on the near 
horizon.


All this is good and well for people living in the suburbs or the
countryside. But what about us city dwellers? Most people in Europe live
in urban appartments and we have no roof to put our PV systems and no
garages or driveways to charge our cars. We can't just dangle a cable
out of a window on the 3rd floor because that would require finding a
spot for parking below said window. Might work once every two or three
years...



I suspect the future for city dwellers is going to be community systems; shared 
resources. The PV system on the roof will provide service for all of the 
building's tenants. You'll share both the cost & the benefits.





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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[David J Brooks]

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 5:22 PM William Robb 
wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 12:01 PM David J Brooks  wrote:
>
> > But,l I refill my propane tanks, I'm doomed
> >
>
> I've heard you refill your propane tanks with natural gas that your body
> self  generates.
>

"If its natural it has to be good". G Paltrow 2018.

Dave

>
> bill
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[mike wilson]

> On 13 July 2019 at 18:23 Ralf R Radermacher  wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 13.07.19 um 15:59 schrieb mike wilson:
> 
> > This has been common sense for decades in urban environments.  I used to 
> > use a motorcycle for normal transport and hire a car when I needed the 
> > capacity.  It's only since becoming a parent and having a job that requires 
> > me to move stuff around on a regular basis that I have transitioned to car 
> > ownership.  I'd go back to a bike in a heartbeat - and will when I retire.
> 
> If you feel safe on anything with less than 4 wheels that's fine. I don't.
> 

Feeling safe in a motor vehicle is pretty much a fallacy.  It's also worth 
considering that a high feeling of security may be at least partly responsible 
for some of the poor and aggressive driving we see.  Being on two wheels makes 
me acutely aware of my vulnerability and forces me to be fully aware of my 
surroundings.

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[William Robb]

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 12:01 PM David J Brooks  wrote:

> But,l I refill my propane tanks, I'm doomed
>

I've heard you refill your propane tanks with natural gas that your body
self  generates.

bill
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bob Pdml]

Yes, we were there during the riots. My older brother and I walked home from 
school one day through the middle of a riot.

Our next door neighbour was a very friendly man called Mr Lee and I thought he 
was the prime minister.

> On 13 Jul 2019, at 19:59, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Pdml wrote on 7/13/19 11:40 AM:
>> So did I when I lived there!
>> That was 1963-65 though...
> 
> That would have been an interesting time to live there.  My friend Julian was 
> there, as a kid, about that time as well.
> 
> Apparently some guy name Lee worked as a clerk in his father's law firm, and 
> then went on to some success in local politics.
> 
>>> On 13 Jul 2019, at 19:06, l...@red4est.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Heh,  when I lived in Singapore I got around on bicycle.  That was some 
>>> scary traffic
>>> 
 
> 

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Larry Colen]

Bob Pdml wrote on 7/13/19 11:40 AM:

So did I when I lived there!

That was 1963-65 though...


That would have been an interesting time to live there.  My friend 
Julian was there, as a kid, about that time as well.


Apparently some guy name Lee worked as a clerk in his father's law firm, 
and then went on to some success in local politics.





On 13 Jul 2019, at 19:06, l...@red4est.com wrote:

Heh,  when I lived in Singapore I got around on bicycle.  That was some scary 
traffic








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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bob Pdml]

So did I when I lived there!

That was 1963-65 though...

> On 13 Jul 2019, at 19:06, l...@red4est.com wrote:
> 
> Heh,  when I lived in Singapore I got around on bicycle.  That was some scary 
> traffic
> 
>> 

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bob Pdml]

>> All this is good and well for people living in the suburbs or the
>> countryside. But what about us city dwellers? Most people in Europe live
>> in urban appartments and we have no roof to put our PV systems and no
>> garages or driveways to charge our cars. We can't just dangle a cable
>> out of a window on the 3rd floor because that would require finding a
>> spot for parking below said window. Might work once every two or three
>> years...
>> 
>> I'm afraid our future will be one without owning cars. We already have a
>> number of car-sharing companies around and they look like the solution
>> for the mid-term future. I've had a look at their prices and they'd be
>> acceptable if I restricted my driving to the bare minimum, i.e. no more
>> shopping trips to neighbouring Belgium and no more leisurely drive
>> across the countryside. Then again, sooner than later we won't be able
>> to afford any of this. They're currently discussing a CO2 tax that would
>> double or triple our fuel prices and that would be the end of it anyway.
>> 
>> Being from a generation that has grown up with cars and individual
>> mobility, I'll be 65 in a few weeks and I must say the idea that I won't
>> be around in 10 or 20 years has lost a lot of its horror recently.
>> 

Cars really have no place in towns and cities, especially the older places 
whose street layouts are medieval or earlier. 

I haven't owned a car for over ten years, and on the very rare occasions that I 
need one I use Zipcar. It's very, very cheap for me as I was a founder member 
of their predecessor here in the UK, and only pay for the car when I use it - I 
don't have to pay a monthly subscription or anything; when Zipcar took them 
over they tried very hard to make me switch, but my terms of membership last 
forever, so I told them to go away. In the last 3 or 4 years I have only used 
it about 3 times, to take stuff to the dump; if my local council thought about 
it they could find another way of dealing with it.

I have just turned 62 and am planning my retirement, which includes moving out 
of London, and I intend to live in places where I don't need a car. I don't 
feel any reduction in individual mobility; having a car in London was a 
nightmare and I feel much freer and more mobile using bicycles, buses and 
trains to get around. I used to love driving when I was young, but even without 
the pollution aspect of it, conditions these days have removed all the pleasure 
from it.

I think for the majority of young urban people over here car ownership is dead, 
at least according to the stats I've read.



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[lrc]

Heh,  when I lived in Singapore I got around on bicycle.  That was some scary 
traffic

On July 13, 2019 10:21:22 AM PDT, Ralf R Radermacher  wrote:
>Am 13.07.19 um 13:50 schrieb Alan C:
>
>> BTW, I thought you guys over there were heavy into cycling?
>
>We guys over here are just as heavy into cycling as we are all
>catholic,
>heterosexual and vegetarian, i.e. some are and some aren't. Besides,
>the
>idea of cycling in our local traffic gives me the creeps.
>
>Ralf
>
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[David J Brooks]

But,l I refill my propane tanks, I'm doomed

Dave

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:47 PM Postmaster 
wrote:

> Paul Stenquist wrote:
>
> >Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
> >While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see
> cars with 400 mile range and much faster charging.
>
> I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
> "propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
> refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
> to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
> almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one (batteries
> would have to log the number of charge/discharge cycles they've been
> through in order to vary the credit you get for the one you're
> exchanging). This would of course require standardization of car
> batteries and creation of a quick remove/replace architecture. A lot
> of standardization and infrastructure hurdles to clear, to be sure,
> but I don't see battery charging rates approaching the time it takes
> to fill a 10-gallon gasoline tank any time soon.
>
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Alan C]

Well, I must say you don't mince your words! There is always a risk on 
the roads, pedestrians too. Even in horse drawn carriage days there were 
terrible accidents.


Alan c

On 13-Jul-19 07:21 PM, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 13.07.19 um 13:50 schrieb Alan C:


BTW, I thought you guys over there were heavy into cycling?


We guys over here are just as heavy into cycling as we are all catholic,
heterosexual and vegetarian, i.e. some are and some aren't. Besides, the
idea of cycling in our local traffic gives me the creeps.

Ralf

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 13.07.19 um 15:59 schrieb mike wilson:


This has been common sense for decades in urban environments.  I used to use a 
motorcycle for normal transport and hire a car when I needed the capacity.  
It's only since becoming a parent and having a job that requires me to move 
stuff around on a regular basis that I have transitioned to car ownership.  I'd 
go back to a bike in a heartbeat - and will when I retire.


If you feel safe on anything with less than 4 wheels that's fine. I don't.

Ralf

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 13.07.19 um 13:50 schrieb Alan C:


BTW, I thought you guys over there were heavy into cycling?


We guys over here are just as heavy into cycling as we are all catholic,
heterosexual and vegetarian, i.e. some are and some aren't. Besides, the
idea of cycling in our local traffic gives me the creeps.

Ralf

--
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Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[mike wilson]

> On 13 July 2019 at 11:15 Ralf R Radermacher  wrote:
> 
> I'm afraid our future will be one without owning cars. 

This has been common sense for decades in urban environments.  I used to use a 
motorcycle for normal transport and hire a car when I needed the capacity.  
It's only since becoming a parent and having a job that requires me to move 
stuff around on a regular basis that I have transitioned to car ownership.  I'd 
go back to a bike in a heartbeat - and will when I retire.

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

DTE Energy, the utility company that provides my electricity, has pledged an 
80% reduction in CO2 and methane emissions by 2040. Most of that will be 
achieved by transitioning to wind and solar, but energy efficiency measures 
like those Bill describes are a big part of it as well. Much of the drilling in 
the US is aimed at providing LPG for export.

Paul

> On Jul 13, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Bill  wrote:
> 
>> On 7/12/2019 8:03 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> The US is much closer to minimizing fossil fuel dependence. A number of 
>> states are generating more than 20 percent of electricity with renewable 
>> energy. Of course we are better positioned for solar.
> 
> Unfortunately, minimizing fossil fuel dependence seems to translate into 
> drill as much as you can as fast as you can so you don't have to import it.
> 
> All the electricity I get comes from burning either coal or natural gas.We 
> can't do much for hydro electric here, and for some reason, they don't want 
> to do nuclear generation even though we have some of the best uranium 
> reserves in the world.
> We have some towns set up with private solar farms, and we are doing wind 
> generation. It turns out one of the locations they decided they wanted to use 
> for a wind farm was on the glide path of some rarish bird, possibly sand-hill 
> cranes.
> We seem to be taking a two pronged approach. The power utility was 
> underwriting most of the cost of LED light bulbs for consumers for a few 
> years, the gas utility was underwriting increasing R value of attic 
> insulation, and other incentives to cut down on energy consumption. Through 
> the magic of an ultra high efficiency furnace, I am paying the same per month 
> for natural gas now as I was 30 years ago, and I only paid about half the 
> retail on the furnace.
> 
> bill
> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Alan C]

They say the first person to live to 200 is already alive. It may well 
be you!


BTW, I thought you guys over there were heavy into cycling?

Alan C

On 13-Jul-19 12:15 PM, Ralf R Radermacher wrote:

Am 12.07.19 um 22:38 schrieb Paul Stenquist:

DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are on the 
near horizon.


All this is good and well for people living in the suburbs or the
countryside. But what about us city dwellers? Most people in Europe live
in urban appartments and we have no roof to put our PV systems and no
garages or driveways to charge our cars. We can't just dangle a cable
out of a window on the 3rd floor because that would require finding a
spot for parking below said window. Might work once every two or three
years...

I'm afraid our future will be one without owning cars. We already have a
number of car-sharing companies around and they look like the solution
for the mid-term future. I've had a look at their prices and they'd be
acceptable if I restricted my driving to the bare minimum, i.e. no more
shopping trips to neighbouring Belgium and no more leisurely drive
across the countryside. Then again, sooner than later we won't be able
to afford any of this. They're currently discussing a CO2 tax that would
double or triple our fuel prices and that would be the end of it anyway.

Being from a generation that has grown up with cars and individual
mobility, I'll be 65 in a few weeks and I must say the idea that I won't
be around in 10 or 20 years has lost a lot of its horror recently.

Ralf

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 12.07.19 um 22:38 schrieb Paul Stenquist:


DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are on the near 
horizon.


All this is good and well for people living in the suburbs or the
countryside. But what about us city dwellers? Most people in Europe live
in urban appartments and we have no roof to put our PV systems and no
garages or driveways to charge our cars. We can't just dangle a cable
out of a window on the 3rd floor because that would require finding a
spot for parking below said window. Might work once every two or three
years...

I'm afraid our future will be one without owning cars. We already have a
number of car-sharing companies around and they look like the solution
for the mid-term future. I've had a look at their prices and they'd be
acceptable if I restricted my driving to the bare minimum, i.e. no more
shopping trips to neighbouring Belgium and no more leisurely drive
across the countryside. Then again, sooner than later we won't be able
to afford any of this. They're currently discussing a CO2 tax that would
double or triple our fuel prices and that would be the end of it anyway.

Being from a generation that has grown up with cars and individual
mobility, I'll be 65 in a few weeks and I must say the idea that I won't
be around in 10 or 20 years has lost a lot of its horror recently.

Ralf

--
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Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 12.07.19 um 18:46 schrieb Postmaster:


I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
"propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one...


Not as easy as it sounds because in most EV the batteries are part of
the vehicle structure and you can't simply take them out.

Ralf

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bill]

On 7/12/2019 8:03 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

The US is much closer to minimizing fossil fuel dependence. A number of states 
are generating more than 20 percent of electricity with renewable energy. Of 
course we are better positioned for solar.



Unfortunately, minimizing fossil fuel dependence seems to translate into 
drill as much as you can as fast as you can so you don't have to import it.


All the electricity I get comes from burning either coal or natural 
gas.We can't do much for hydro electric here, and for some reason, they 
don't want to do nuclear generation even though we have some of the best 
uranium reserves in the world.
We have some towns set up with private solar farms, and we are doing 
wind generation. It turns out one of the locations they decided they 
wanted to use for a wind farm was on the glide path of some rarish bird, 
possibly sand-hill cranes.
We seem to be taking a two pronged approach. The power utility was 
underwriting most of the cost of LED light bulbs for consumers for a few 
years, the gas utility was underwriting increasing R value of attic 
insulation, and other incentives to cut down on energy consumption. 
Through the magic of an ultra high efficiency furnace, I am paying the 
same per month for natural gas now as I was 30 years ago, and I only 
paid about half the retail on the furnace.


bill

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Alan C]

Electric cars are still in their infancy in SA with less than 1000 
registered so far. About 200 public EV charging stations are available.


Alan C

On 13-Jul-19 04:03 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

The US is much closer to minimizing fossil fuel dependence. A number of states 
are generating more than 20 percent of electricity with renewable energy. Of 
course we are better positioned for solar.

Paul


On Jul 12, 2019, at 9:23 PM, mike wilson  wrote:



On 12 July 2019 at 23:20 Steve Cottrell  wrote:


On 12/7/19, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:


The other big issue with batteries is the the electrickery has to be
generated somehow and, at present, that means burning fossil fuels.

On a global scale, certainly. But nuclear fission power in the UK has almost 
completely obliterated fossil fuel burning. Coal-fired is gone, just need to 
knock off the gas burning.

That said, nuclear is ahem far from 'clean'

And the renewal programme (which should just cover our present needs) is in 
meltdown.  If you'll pardon the pun.  Not a snowball's chance of producing 
enough juice to deal with mass conversion to electrical transport.  Renewables? 
 Not even close to coping with the present fleet of Leafs and Zoes, never mind 
the millions more supposedly landing on our roads in the next few years.  Even 
with the present run of mildish winters we have come very close to rationing 
during the darkest days.  Only the pipelines to the dreaded Yurp have kept us 
topped up - that may become an issue in the next few years if we leave.

Another issue with elecric vehicles is that the batteries lose capacity much 
quicker than IC engines wear out.  There are plenty of stories of buyers 
finding that their 2-3-4 year old, low mileage car will now not do the (already 
generous) 200 miles suggested by the manufacturer on a full charge but 
substantially less than 50.


The problem with hydrogen is making the hydrogen in the first place

Indeed it is.  Although it's more of "a" problem, as there are plenty more.


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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[William Robb]

We have quite a few hybrids floating around here, mostly Priuses and I was
surprised the other day when I saw a Nissan Leaf.
I expect it will be parked for the winter, though if they have heated
parking at home and at work it would be a viable winter commuter here.

bill

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 7:00 PM Paul Stenquist 
wrote:

> I suspect Bill and his neighbors will be driving gasoline fueled cars for
> some years to come but electric vehicle cold weather performance is
> improving.
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115039_chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-range-and-performance-in-winter-one-owners-log
>
> Paul
>
> > On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:29 PM, William Robb 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> > That might work in Alabama in September, but when it's -40, a real
> heating
> > element is going to be needed.
> > This presumes that at those kinds of temperatures the batteries make
> enough
> > electricity to move the car in the first place.
> >>>
> >>
> > --
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Larry Colen]

Paul Stenquist wrote on 7/12/19 8:18 AM:

Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see cars 
with 400 mile range and much faster charging.
Paul



For most people, an EV would handle the vast majority of their needs.  I 
was just suggesting to a friend that if he wants an EV for daily use, 
but occasionally needs to take long trips, he would do well to own two 
cars, a nice EV and a not so nice IC car.


Chevy is in a good position for the following business model.  If you 
buy a bolt, you can rent an Internal Combustion car for some reduced 
rate (maybe even something like 24 days a year for free). Likewise, they 
could even arrange it that while your bolt is being on exchange, they 
could rent it out to someone else.


It might even make more sense for them to do it as a lease, they own the 
car, and you have a timeshare lease on whichever car you need for the 
moment.


Note the above is not a detailed business plan, but just some very broad 
strokes.



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

The US is much closer to minimizing fossil fuel dependence. A number of states 
are generating more than 20 percent of electricity with renewable energy. Of 
course we are better positioned for solar.

Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 9:23 PM, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 12 July 2019 at 23:20 Steve Cottrell  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/7/19, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:
>> 
>>> The other big issue with batteries is the the electrickery has to be
>>> generated somehow and, at present, that means burning fossil fuels.
>> 
>> On a global scale, certainly. But nuclear fission power in the UK has almost 
>> completely obliterated fossil fuel burning. Coal-fired is gone, just need to 
>> knock off the gas burning.
>> 
>> That said, nuclear is ahem far from 'clean'
> 
> And the renewal programme (which should just cover our present needs) is in 
> meltdown.  If you'll pardon the pun.  Not a snowball's chance of producing 
> enough juice to deal with mass conversion to electrical transport.  
> Renewables?  Not even close to coping with the present fleet of Leafs and 
> Zoes, never mind the millions more supposedly landing on our roads in the 
> next few years.  Even with the present run of mildish winters we have come 
> very close to rationing during the darkest days.  Only the pipelines to the 
> dreaded Yurp have kept us topped up - that may become an issue in the next 
> few years if we leave.
> 
> Another issue with elecric vehicles is that the batteries lose capacity much 
> quicker than IC engines wear out.  There are plenty of stories of buyers 
> finding that their 2-3-4 year old, low mileage car will now not do the 
> (already generous) 200 miles suggested by the manufacturer on a full charge 
> but substantially less than 50.
> 
>> 
>> The problem with hydrogen is making the hydrogen in the first place
> 
> Indeed it is.  Although it's more of "a" problem, as there are plenty more.
> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[mike wilson]

> On 12 July 2019 at 23:20 Steve Cottrell  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/7/19, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:
> 
> >The other big issue with batteries is the the electrickery has to be
> >generated somehow and, at present, that means burning fossil fuels.
> 
> On a global scale, certainly. But nuclear fission power in the UK has almost 
> completely obliterated fossil fuel burning. Coal-fired is gone, just need to 
> knock off the gas burning.
> 
> That said, nuclear is ahem far from 'clean'

And the renewal programme (which should just cover our present needs) is in 
meltdown.  If you'll pardon the pun.  Not a snowball's chance of producing 
enough juice to deal with mass conversion to electrical transport.  Renewables? 
 Not even close to coping with the present fleet of Leafs and Zoes, never mind 
the millions more supposedly landing on our roads in the next few years.  Even 
with the present run of mildish winters we have come very close to rationing 
during the darkest days.  Only the pipelines to the dreaded Yurp have kept us 
topped up - that may become an issue in the next few years if we leave.

Another issue with elecric vehicles is that the batteries lose capacity much 
quicker than IC engines wear out.  There are plenty of stories of buyers 
finding that their 2-3-4 year old, low mileage car will now not do the (already 
generous) 200 miles suggested by the manufacturer on a full charge but 
substantially less than 50.

> 
> The problem with hydrogen is making the hydrogen in the first place

Indeed it is.  Although it's more of "a" problem, as there are plenty more.

> 
> -- 
> 
>

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

I suspect Bill and his neighbors will be driving gasoline fueled cars for some 
years to come but electric vehicle cold weather performance is improving.   
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115039_chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-range-and-performance-in-winter-one-owners-log

Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:29 PM, William Robb  wrote:
> 
>> 
> That might work in Alabama in September, but when it's -40, a real heating
> element is going to be needed.
> This presumes that at those kinds of temperatures the batteries make enough
> electricity to move the car in the first place.
>>> 
>> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[William Robb]

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 4:23 PM John  wrote:

> Batteries generate a fair amount of heat when they're under load ...
> otherwise
> there wouldn't be all those stories about laptops & phones catching fire.
> You
> can tap the air-flow from battery cooling to heat the passenger
> compartment.
>
That might work in Alabama in September, but when it's -40, a real heating
element is going to be needed.
This presumes that at those kinds of temperatures the batteries make enough
electricity to move the car in the first place.

>
> I think the bigger problem is going to be providing AC to keep the
> passengers cool.
>
> On 7/12/2019 15:14:50, Bill wrote:
> > On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
> >> So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for
> a time
> >> machine!
> >>
> >
> > Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up
> to the
> > needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging stations
> that
> > can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic for longish road
> trips.
> >
> > Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat
> from the
> > engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat the cabin
> off the
> > battery. This will be a range killer with winter driving. I expect AC
> units will
> > have some negative effect on range as well.
> > Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they
> have been
> > tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must know stuff I
> don't.
> > Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show
> potential to
> > be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be long though.
> >
> > bill
> >
>
>
> --
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> Religion - Answers we must never question.
>
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

Maybe Ricoh could undertake a joint venture with Toyota?

On 7/12/2019 17:29:16, jtainter wrote:

Interesting discussion.

There's not much discussion of Pentax gear on this list, but bring up cars and 
the guys all jump in.

Joe






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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

Batteries generate a fair amount of heat when they're under load ... otherwise 
there wouldn't be all those stories about laptops & phones catching fire. You 
can tap the air-flow from battery cooling to heat the passenger compartment.


I think the bigger problem is going to be providing AC to keep the passengers 
cool.

On 7/12/2019 15:14:50, Bill wrote:

On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a time 
machine!




Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up to the 
needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging stations that 
can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic for longish road trips.


Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat from the 
engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat the cabin off the 
battery. This will be a range killer with winter driving. I expect AC units will 
have some negative effect on range as well.
Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they have been 
tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must know stuff I don't.
Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show potential to 
be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be long though.


bill




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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Steve Cottrell]

On 12/7/19, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:

>The other big issue with batteries is the the electrickery has to be
>generated somehow and, at present, that means burning fossil fuels.

On a global scale, certainly. But nuclear fission power in the UK has almost 
completely obliterated fossil fuel burning. Coal-fired is gone, just need to 
knock off the gas burning.

That said, nuclear is ahem far from 'clean'

The problem with hydrogen is making the hydrogen in the first place

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[John]

I thought I saw an announcement recently that the New York Times was closing 
down their "Wheels" segment. I thought about you when I read it.


Glad to see it's still up and running & that you're still writing for them.

On 7/12/2019 14:22:44, Paul Stenquist wrote:

No, one car will suffice for those who drive less than a few hundred miles a day, as 
the battery can be recharged overnight with a Level 2 home charging station.  For long 
distance travels, plug-in hybrids will continue to be offered for many years to come. I 
explained home charging reasonably well here: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/business/electric-vehicle-home-chargers.html?action=click=RelatedLinks=Article
Paul


On Jul 12, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Alan C  wrote:

So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a time 
machine!


Alan C





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Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 12.07.19 um 23:01 schrieb Paul Stenquist:

Fossil fuel electricity generation will be just a memory in 30 years for the 
most part, although some natural gas plants will continue as backup. But 
renewables will provide most of the US power needs with battery storage systems 
to balance load. DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are 
on the near horizon.


You can say that again... ;-)

Ralf


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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Daniel J. Matyola]

MARK!

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:29 PM jtainter  wrote:

> Interesting discussion.
>
> There's not much discussion of Pentax gear on this list, but bring up cars
> and the guys all jump in.
>
> Joe
>
>
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[jtainter]

Interesting discussion.

There's not much discussion of Pentax gear on this list, but bring up cars and 
the guys all jump in.

Joe



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

Fossil fuel electricity generation will be just a memory in 30 years for the 
most part, although some natural gas plants will continue as backup. But 
renewables will provide most of the US power needs with battery storage systems 
to balance load. DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are 
on the near horizon.

Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 3:59 PM, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 12 July 2019 at 20:14 Bill  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
>>> So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
>>> time machine!
>>> 
>> 
>> Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up 
>> to the needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging 
>> stations that can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic 
>> for longish road trips.
>> 
>> Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat 
>> from the engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat 
>> the cabin off the battery. This will be a range killer with winter 
>> driving. I expect AC units will have some negative effect on range as well.
>> Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they 
>> have been tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must 
>> know stuff I don't.
>> Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show 
>> potential to be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be 
>> long though.
> 
> I'm for hydrogen as well.  Chemical batteries will never be able to equal the 
> stamina of liquid fuels.  Hydrogen cars are available to lease in California 
> and even backward old UK has three or four hydrogen refuelling stations, so 
> don't write them off yet.  The other big issue with batteries is the the 
> electrickery has to be generated somehow and, at present, that means burning 
> fossil fuels.  The only advantage batteries have is that environmental impact 
> can be better regulated when generation is concentrated in fewer locations.  
> But building the charging infrastructure (and the impact from creating it) 
> would be a phenomenal undertaking if we went wholly to all eletric vehicles..
> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

Fossil fuel electricity generation will be just a memory in 30 years for the 
most part, although some natural gas plants will continue as backup. But 
renewables will provide most of the US power needs with battery storage systems 
to balance load. DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are 
on the near horizon.

Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 3:59 PM, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 12 July 2019 at 20:14 Bill  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
>>> So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
>>> time machine!
>>> 
>> 
>> Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up 
>> to the needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging 
>> stations that can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic 
>> for longish road trips.
>> 
>> Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat 
>> from the engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat 
>> the cabin off the battery. This will be a range killer with winter 
>> driving. I expect AC units will have some negative effect on range as well.
>> Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they 
>> have been tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must 
>> know stuff I don't.
>> Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show 
>> potential to be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be 
>> long though.
> 
> I'm for hydrogen as well.  Chemical batteries will never be able to equal the 
> stamina of liquid fuels.  Hydrogen cars are available to lease in California 
> and even backward old UK has three or four hydrogen refuelling stations, so 
> don't write them off yet.  The other big issue with batteries is the the 
> electrickery has to be generated somehow and, at present, that means burning 
> fossil fuels.  The only advantage batteries have is that environmental impact 
> can be better regulated when generation is concentrated in fewer locations.  
> But building the charging infrastructure (and the impact from creating it) 
> would be a phenomenal undertaking if we went wholly to all eletric vehicles..
> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

Fossil fuel electricity generation will be just a memory in 30 years for the 
most part, although some natural gas plants will continue as backup. But 
renewables will provide most of the US power needs with battery storage systems 
to balance load. DC electric vehicle chargers that operate on solar power are 
on the near horizon.

Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 3:59 PM, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 12 July 2019 at 20:14 Bill  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
>>> So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
>>> time machine!
>>> 
>> 
>> Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up 
>> to the needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging 
>> stations that can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic 
>> for longish road trips.
>> 
>> Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat 
>> from the engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat 
>> the cabin off the battery. This will be a range killer with winter 
>> driving. I expect AC units will have some negative effect on range as well.
>> Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they 
>> have been tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must 
>> know stuff I don't.
>> Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show 
>> potential to be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be 
>> long though.
> 
> I'm for hydrogen as well.  Chemical batteries will never be able to equal the 
> stamina of liquid fuels.  Hydrogen cars are available to lease in California 
> and even backward old UK has three or four hydrogen refuelling stations, so 
> don't write them off yet.  The other big issue with batteries is the the 
> electrickery has to be generated somehow and, at present, that means burning 
> fossil fuels.  The only advantage batteries have is that environmental impact 
> can be better regulated when generation is concentrated in fewer locations.  
> But building the charging infrastructure (and the impact from creating it) 
> would be a phenomenal undertaking if we went wholly to all eletric vehicles..
> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Michael Beacom]

How about towing a generator? 
May be a little kludgy, but I can imagine someone scavenging a motor/generator 
set from a wreaked  hybrid, and building a trailer for it.

Cheers
Beaker






Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 2:22 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
> No, one car will suffice for those who drive less than a few hundred miles a 
> day, as the battery can be recharged overnight with a Level 2 home charging 
> station.  For long distance travels, plug-in hybrids will continue to be 
> offered for many years to come. I explained home charging reasonably well 
> here: 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/business/electric-vehicle-home-chargers.html?action=click=RelatedLinks=Article
> Paul
> 
>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Alan C  wrote:
>> 
>> So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
>> time machine!
>> 
>> 
>> Alan C
>> 
>>> On 12-Jul-19 07:59 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>> Batteries are extremely heavy and have to be built into the car’s 
>>> architecture. Swapping them out would be very difficult. They will become 
>>> more compact, but that will be a slow process, and thy’ll probably never 
>>> weight less than a few hundred pounds. (That’s why, in the days of lesser 
>>> batteries, Formula E elected to swap out complete cars rather than 
>>> batteries.) There have been exponential improvements in charging rates, and 
>>> I expect that to continue. Plus, as DC fast charging stations proliferate 
>>> on major routs, topping off occasionally will make sense. Motorists won’t 
>>> be charging from point zero but rather adding 100 or 200 miles range at a 
>>> time. That being said, IC engine vehicles and plug-in hybrids will remain 
>>> the choice for long trip driving for many years to come. Electrics, though, 
>>> are great urban cars, as one can top off the battery daily at home, as my 
>>> article explained and as the industry experts point out.
>>> Paul
>>> 
 On Jul 12, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Postmaster  
 wrote:
 
 Paul Stenquist wrote:
 
> Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
> While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see 
> cars with 400 mile range and much faster charging.
 I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
 "propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
 refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
 to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
 almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one (batteries
 would have to log the number of charge/discharge cycles they've been
 through in order to vary the credit you get for the one you're
 exchanging). This would of course require standardization of car
 batteries and creation of a quick remove/replace architecture. A lot
 of standardization and infrastructure hurdles to clear, to be sure,
 but I don't see battery charging rates approaching the time it takes
 to fill a 10-gallon gasoline tank any time soon.
 
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 follow the directions.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[mike wilson]

> On 12 July 2019 at 20:14 Bill  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
> > So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
> > time machine!
> > 
> 
> Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up 
> to the needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging 
> stations that can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic 
> for longish road trips.
> 
> Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat 
> from the engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat 
> the cabin off the battery. This will be a range killer with winter 
> driving. I expect AC units will have some negative effect on range as well.
> Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they 
> have been tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must 
> know stuff I don't.
> Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show 
> potential to be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be 
> long though.

I'm for hydrogen as well.  Chemical batteries will never be able to equal the 
stamina of liquid fuels.  Hydrogen cars are available to lease in California 
and even backward old UK has three or four hydrogen refuelling stations, so 
don't write them off yet.  The other big issue with batteries is the the 
electrickery has to be generated somehow and, at present, that means burning 
fossil fuels.  The only advantage batteries have is that environmental impact 
can be better regulated when generation is concentrated in fewer locations.  
But building the charging infrastructure (and the impact from creating it) 
would be a phenomenal undertaking if we went wholly to all eletric vehicles..

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Bill]

On 7/12/2019 12:13 PM, Alan C wrote:
So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
time machine!




Nope, it's just going to take a while for battery technology to catch up 
to the needs of long distance driving. That and more depth of charging 
stations that can quick charge a vehicle will make electric realistic 
for longish road trips.


Cabin heating will be a challenge. Right now, cabin heaters take heat 
from the engine cooling system, but electric vehicles will have to heat 
the cabin off the battery. This will be a range killer with winter 
driving. I expect AC units will have some negative effect on range as well.
Personally, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go, but as they 
have been tried and discarded, the people who know more than me must 
know stuff I don't.
Right now, to me as a consumer, electrics are cute toys that show 
potential to be useful, but they aren't there yet. I suspect it won't be 
long though.


bill

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

No, one car will suffice for those who drive less than a few hundred miles a 
day, as the battery can be recharged overnight with a Level 2 home charging 
station.  For long distance travels, plug-in hybrids will continue to be 
offered for many years to come. I explained home charging reasonably well here: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/business/electric-vehicle-home-chargers.html?action=click=RelatedLinks=Article
Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Alan C  wrote:
> 
> So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a time 
> machine!
> 
> 
> Alan C
> 
> On 12-Jul-19 07:59 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> Batteries are extremely heavy and have to be built into the car’s 
>> architecture. Swapping them out would be very difficult. They will become 
>> more compact, but that will be a slow process, and thy’ll probably never 
>> weight less than a few hundred pounds. (That’s why, in the days of lesser 
>> batteries, Formula E elected to swap out complete cars rather than 
>> batteries.) There have been exponential improvements in charging rates, and 
>> I expect that to continue. Plus, as DC fast charging stations proliferate on 
>> major routs, topping off occasionally will make sense. Motorists won’t be 
>> charging from point zero but rather adding 100 or 200 miles range at a time. 
>> That being said, IC engine vehicles and plug-in hybrids will remain the 
>> choice for long trip driving for many years to come. Electrics, though, are 
>> great urban cars, as one can top off the battery daily at home, as my 
>> article explained and as the industry experts point out.
>> Paul
>> 
>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Postmaster  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>> 
 Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
 While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see 
 cars with 400 mile range and much faster charging.
>>> I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
>>> "propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
>>> refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
>>> to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
>>> almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one (batteries
>>> would have to log the number of charge/discharge cycles they've been
>>> through in order to vary the credit you get for the one you're
>>> exchanging). This would of course require standardization of car
>>> batteries and creation of a quick remove/replace architecture. A lot
>>> of standardization and infrastructure hurdles to clear, to be sure,
>>> but I don't see battery charging rates approaching the time it takes
>>> to fill a 10-gallon gasoline tank any time soon.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
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>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>>> follow the directions.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Alan C]

So owners will need two cars - one on charge & one on the road. Oh for a 
time machine!



Alan C

On 12-Jul-19 07:59 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

Batteries are extremely heavy and have to be built into the car’s architecture. 
Swapping them out would be very difficult. They will become more compact, but 
that will be a slow process, and thy’ll probably never weight less than a few 
hundred pounds. (That’s why, in the days of lesser batteries, Formula E elected 
to swap out complete cars rather than batteries.) There have been exponential 
improvements in charging rates, and I expect that to continue. Plus, as DC fast 
charging stations proliferate on major routs, topping off occasionally will 
make sense. Motorists won’t be charging from point zero but rather adding 100 
or 200 miles range at a time. That being said, IC engine vehicles and plug-in 
hybrids will remain the choice for long trip driving for many years to come. 
Electrics, though, are great urban cars, as one can top off the battery daily 
at home, as my article explained and as the industry experts point out.
Paul


On Jul 12, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Postmaster  wrote:

Paul Stenquist wrote:


Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see cars 
with 400 mile range and much faster charging.

I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
"propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one (batteries
would have to log the number of charge/discharge cycles they've been
through in order to vary the credit you get for the one you're
exchanging). This would of course require standardization of car
batteries and creation of a quick remove/replace architecture. A lot
of standardization and infrastructure hurdles to clear, to be sure,
but I don't see battery charging rates approaching the time it takes
to fill a 10-gallon gasoline tank any time soon.

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

Batteries are extremely heavy and have to be built into the car’s architecture. 
Swapping them out would be very difficult. They will become more compact, but 
that will be a slow process, and thy’ll probably never weight less than a few 
hundred pounds. (That’s why, in the days of lesser batteries, Formula E elected 
to swap out complete cars rather than batteries.) There have been exponential 
improvements in charging rates, and I expect that to continue. Plus, as DC fast 
charging stations proliferate on major routs, topping off occasionally will 
make sense. Motorists won’t be charging from point zero but rather adding 100 
or 200 miles range at a time. That being said, IC engine vehicles and plug-in 
hybrids will remain the choice for long trip driving for many years to come. 
Electrics, though, are great urban cars, as one can top off the battery daily 
at home, as my article explained and as the industry experts point out.
Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Postmaster  wrote:
> 
> Paul Stenquist wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
>> While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see cars 
>> with 400 mile range and much faster charging.
> 
> I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
> "propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
> refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
> to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
> almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one (batteries
> would have to log the number of charge/discharge cycles they've been
> through in order to vary the credit you get for the one you're
> exchanging). This would of course require standardization of car
> batteries and creation of a quick remove/replace architecture. A lot
> of standardization and infrastructure hurdles to clear, to be sure,
> but I don't see battery charging rates approaching the time it takes
> to fill a 10-gallon gasoline tank any time soon.
> 
> -- 
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Postmaster]

Paul Stenquist wrote:

>Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
>While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see cars 
>with 400 mile range and much faster charging.

I think what the electric car industry needs to do is adopt the
"propane" business model: You don't generally get your propane tank
refilled, you exchange it for a filled one. Someday you should be able
to pull into a service station in your electric car and have your
almost-depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one (batteries
would have to log the number of charge/discharge cycles they've been
through in order to vary the credit you get for the one you're
exchanging). This would of course require standardization of car
batteries and creation of a quick remove/replace architecture. A lot
of standardization and infrastructure hurdles to clear, to be sure,
but I don't see battery charging rates approaching the time it takes
to fill a 10-gallon gasoline tank any time soon.

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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Steve Cottrell]

On 12/7/19, Paul Stenquist, discombobulated, unleashed:

>I think we'll eventually see cars with 400 mile range and much faster
>charging.

This is the one I am watching with great interest:



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Re: Paul's NYTimes piece

[Paul Stenquist]

Thanks Rick. I enjoyed driving the Bolt for a week
While I was working on the charging piece. I think we’ll eventually see cars 
with 400 mile range and much faster charging.
Paul

> On Jul 12, 2019, at 9:48 AM, Rick Womer  wrote:
> 
> Paul, that is a really interesting and well-done pair of articles—and you 
> have a full page of today’s Business section!
> 
> Since we live in a row house, and take several 250-mile-plus trips every year 
> (a couple with one or two canoes on the roof), I don’t think an electric car 
> is in our future. We have friends who love their Tesla, but also talk about 
> spending an hour in a convenience store while it charges on long trips. That 
> would make us crazy.
> 
> Rick
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Paul's NYTimes piece

[Rick Womer]

Paul, that is a really interesting and well-done pair of articles—and you have 
a full page of today’s Business section!

Since we live in a row house, and take several 250-mile-plus trips every year 
(a couple with one or two canoes on the roof), I don’t think an electric car is 
in our future. We have friends who love their Tesla, but also talk about 
spending an hour in a convenience store while it charges on long trips. That 
would make us crazy.

Rick
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