Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: dario.bona...@virgilio.it wrote: Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the Japanese Leica. That was commonly reported from Japan around 1976, soon after the introduction of the MX. Some Japanese folks perceived the MX as the new Leica: small, basic, smooth and pleasant to use. In other words, the Leica philosophy in a (then) current camera. I heard the same thing in reference to the Olympus OM-1 about that time. Rumor had it that Olympus was going to name the camera the M-1 but didn't after Leica protested ... My reply: Early-production OM-1 cameras were actually badged M-1. Some of them show up from time to time. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Stan Halpin wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:24:47 -0700 Jim, I read this piece last night (after W. Robb kindly pointed out how I needed to access the site. Duh.) My recollection/interpretation of the key points the author was making is as follows: a. Close enough is good enough. Set the camera for the conditions and take photos already. b. Intuition is better than logic. Well, he doesn't actually say that, but the whole lens-design bit about how good experienced lens designers can do better than a computer program is in that same vein. I agree with (a). I think we all (except Bob W. and Frank) sometimes let ourselves be driven by a fascination with the electromechanical gee-whiziness of our cameras, and we strive for vanishingly small degrees of precision in aspects like exposure, color balance, focus etc., thereby losing some ability to see, to visualize, and to create an image that we and others will care about. Trust me; the research on cognition clearly shows that we have limited capacity, and attending to technical details must diminish the extent to which we are attending to the image as image. I disagree with (b). Intuitive decisions are no better than logical decisions; see Chapter 7 in my 2009 book on developing leaders for links to relevant research. I would agree that an experienced designer is far more likely to generate an innovative solution than an inexperienced designer, but the tools they use will have no bearing on the outcome. A designer who has grown up on CAD/CAM and who is good at his job is just as likely to be good as is a designer who grew up grinding lenses by hand using polishing cloths made from passenger pigeon skins. Actually, the modern designer is likely to have an edge since he can try more iterations and hence has more trial-and-error learning opportunities. My general assessment is that the author is a romantic, yearning for the good old days when life was simple. It is unfortunate that he picks on a particular consumer product as the focus of his discussion, because it leads people to talk about the goodness and badness of Leicas more than the merits of his apparent assumption that things used to be simple and are no longer so. BTW, i recently had my father-in-law's M-2 refurbished, torn shutter curtain repaired, etc. It sits here on the shelf by my desk. Every time I pick it up I am surprised by what a large heavy unwieldy camera it is. It may be simple, but it is pretty primitive. For usability I'll take a Minox EL, Olympus OM-1, Pentax ME-Super, LX, or MZ-S any day. And of course the current generation DSLRs provide so much more functionality than the Leicas ever had. And they allow us to take pretty good images as long as we remember that close enough is good enough. Thanks for your thoughtful comments Stan. Most of us here aren't familiar with Puts' position as THE technical guru of Leicaland. It's more than a little ironic to read his words decrying technology in favor of intuition when technology and measurement are the core of his approach to reviewing Leica lenses and camera bodies. Maybe he's getting a little grumpy with the passing years... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: Bruce Walker bruce.wal...@gmail.com Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism] On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote: Sigh. Make that made without computer help. It's hard to find reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens. Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's what I concluded and it works well. Reading glasses are focused closer than monitor glasses. Same recommendation here - works well if done correctly - your eye doctor can take an existing prescription and give you one for computer glasses. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 11-04-12 10:58 PM, Jim King wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Regards, Jim Whoa! That article amply demonstrates why paragraphs are a Good Idea. I'd like to read it, but I'm put off by that swollen river of run-on text. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
To be fair, his arguments are not without merit. I'm always suspicious, however, when anyone quotes Pirsig. Ultimately, Pirsig's view of quality is an I know it when I see it argument. It's not wrong, just difficult to apply and even harder to adjudicate when there is a difference of opinion. On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 8:06 AM, drd1...@gmail.com wrote: I had the same thought. Composition grade would drop. Ironic given the topic. On Apr 13, 2011 7:46am, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. I'll do that Dave -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long does he really expect to be using his camera? You have to move on at some point. It's nostalgia speaking here. It's hip to say that you shoot film, and that you shot film before it was cool. Guess what, the rest of the world has moved on. If he wants to shoot film, he can do that. On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Jim King jamesk8...@mac.com wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700 This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the posts here. I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of his style; his arguments for the old ways are worth considering, and some of his criticism of our digital era are on target IMO. Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
I appreciate that the old film cameras had a longer lifespan than the digital ones. The problem is that for many of us color was a thing left to the labs, whereas BW was a medium were we could do some PP. Now color is there as well. On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jim King jamesk8...@mac.com wrote: Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700 This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the posts here. I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of his style; his arguments for the old ways are worth considering, and some of his criticism of our digital era are on target IMO. Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
I'm not a professional, and really not even a craftsman, but I recognize a superiority complex when I see one.Defense of the old ways in the name of professionalism is a fine way of looking down one's nose at all who differ from one's own way of doing things. Dan On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jim King jamesk8...@mac.com wrote: Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700 This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the posts here. I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of his style; his arguments for the old ways are worth considering, and some of his criticism of our digital era are on target IMO. Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Daniel J. Matyola wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 08:33:00 -0700 I'm not a professional, and really not even a craftsman, but I recognize a superiority complex when I see one.Defense of the old ways in the name of professionalism is a fine way of looking down one's nose at all who differ from one's own way of doing things. Many (but by no means all) Leica enthusiast are like that... After all, they are champions of a camera design which is virtually unchanged form the 1950s! Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
OMG! All one paragraph. It's unreadable. The part I managed to get through before my eyes and brain hurt seemed silly and obvious. Paul On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Steven Desjardins wrote: To be fair, his arguments are not without merit. I'm always suspicious, however, when anyone quotes Pirsig. Ultimately, Pirsig's view of quality is an I know it when I see it argument. It's not wrong, just difficult to apply and even harder to adjudicate when there is a difference of opinion. On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 8:06 AM, drd1...@gmail.com wrote: I had the same thought. Composition grade would drop. Ironic given the topic. On Apr 13, 2011 7:46am, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Paul Stenquist wrote: OMG! All one paragraph. It's unreadable. The part I managed to get through before my eyes and brain hurt seemed silly and obvious. There's a story Galen Rowell related in one of his books about the post-workshop slide presentations he always used to have. Each participant got to pick a number of their own shots from the workshop to be shown. Now a slide can go into a projector 8 different ways and 7 of them are wrong. And it's not always apparent to others which orientation is correct. So Galen instructed everyone to mark their slides with a dot in the upper right corner of the mount, viewed from the side from which the slide looked correct. This tremendously speeds up getting a couple of hundred slides into a carousel. In every workshop, however, some people just couldn't get it right. They either forgot the dot or put it in the wrong location. Rowell observed that these people also invariably produced the weakest photographs. He concluded that their lack of awareness/care/attention in marking the slide was not just confined to slide marking but affected their creative output as well. Doug Brewer and I see a similar effect at the GFM photo contest we judge: the people who mess up the (very simple) file-naming convention never produce winning photos. Anyway, I think the article in question shows that a similar phenomenon exists with regards to the written word. -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
From: Mark Roberts http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. I also disagreed with his definition of professionalism. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
From: Mark Roberts Paul Stenquist wrote: OMG! All one paragraph. It's unreadable. The part I managed to get through before my eyes and brain hurt seemed silly and obvious. There's a story Galen Rowell related in one of his books about the post-workshop slide presentations he always used to have. Each participant got to pick a number of their own shots from the workshop to be shown. Now a slide can go into a projector 8 different ways and 7 of them are wrong. And it's not always apparent to others which orientation is correct. So Galen instructed everyone to mark their slides with a dot in the upper right corner of the mount, viewed from the side from which the slide looked correct. This tremendously speeds up getting a couple of hundred slides into a carousel. In every workshop, however, some people just couldn't get it right. They either forgot the dot or put it in the wrong location. Rowell observed that these people also invariably produced the weakest photographs. He concluded that their lack of awareness/care/attention in marking the slide was not just confined to slide marking but affected their creative output as well. Doug Brewer and I see a similar effect at the GFM photo contest we judge: the people who mess up the (very simple) file-naming convention never produce winning photos. That doesn't, however, make the opposite true. My file names were *PERFECT*! Anyway, I think the article in question shows that a similar phenomenon exists with regards to the written word. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Mark wrote: Doug Brewer and I see a similar effect at the GFM photo contest we judge: the people who mess up the (very simple) file-naming convention never produce winning photos. Anyway, I think the article in question shows that a similar phenomenon exists with regards to the written word. I see that frequently at work. I get to review resumes and perform technical phone interviews with candidates. I recently had a 16-page double-spaced resume submitted from a guy with 10 years experience (my 30 years is condensed to 4 pages). The resume was so loaded with grammatical errors I stopped marking it up. One 4-line bulleted paragraph was repeated almost verbatim for four different employers. The resume frequently explained how something worked vs. what the individual did. The phone interview went the same. Long rambling answers that did not answer the questions. When I drilled down to elicit specific responses they were vague or incorrect. I instantly think that if this document is the single most important document essential to your career success and so little attention is paid to detail, content, and quality, what kind of software and written documents will you produce for the client? Tom -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:49 AM, John Sessoms wrote: That doesn't, however, make the opposite true. My file names were *PERFECT*! I saw a photographer drinking a Pina Colada at Grandfather mountain, his filenames were perfect. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
The first couple sentences... The last few weeks I took pictures with a fifty-year-old Leica M3 that recently has been serviced with minor adjustments. This was the first overhaul in half a century and given the small amount of repairs it should now be fit for another half century. ...already describe the person. All lab technicians I spoke to about tuning old Leicas told me they mostly get horribly mis-adjusted cameras to restore as possible. That's not a Leica fault, it's the unavoidable problem for any decently-built mechanical camera of that age. A mechanical camera cannon be tuned as precisely as a typical Leica owner dreams of when new, go figure a fifty-year-old one. However, any polite technician will always assure the Leica owner his camera only needed minor adjustments. That said, it is true that a mechanical camera from the fifties will operate much longer than an electronic one. Take it for granted. That also applies to say a SV, a Spotmatic or a K1000. I own a couple Asahiflexes (mid-fifties) which look like having been manufactured in late 2010 and work flawlessly, adjusted more or less like you can expect from a Leica of the same vintage. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Regards, Jim Whoa! That article amply demonstrates why paragraphs are a Good Idea. I'd like to read it, but I'm put off by that swollen river of run-on text. Erwin Puts hardly ever writes anything worth reading, paragraphs or not. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long does he really expect to be using his camera? You have to move on at some point. Why? That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the manufacturers, not the consumers. It's nostalgia speaking here. It's hip to say that you shoot film, and that you shot film before it was cool. Guess what, the rest of the world has moved on. If he wants to shoot film, he can do that. He has an M9. He's moaning that the sensor will be f_cked in a relatively short time, and will reduce the lifespan of the camera compared to his M3. It seems perfectly reasonable to want a camera that costs £5,000.00 to last a long time. If the sensor fails after, say, 20 years, and the rest of the body is designed to last 50, someone in the accounting department will ask why they are wasting so much cost in the body, and lower the quality so that it too has a life expectancy of only 20 years, and before you know it Leicas will be made of cardboard. People are still using Leicas from the 13th century, or thereabouts. Long may they continue to do so! B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Why? That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the manufacturers, not the consumers. While it would be nice for a camera to last forever, I don't see much to complain about in relation to the days of film. My K10D is 4 years old. It still works fine. I want a K-5, but only because the K-5 is better, not because the K10D is any worse than when I got it. In the 4 years I've had my K10D, I estimate that I would have spent about $3,000 in film and processing to take the same number of exposures on film. So if my K10D dies today, why should I complain about the cost of a new body? If periodic replacement/upgrade of digital bodies isn't cheaper than shooting film, then either you're spending too much on the bodies (*cough* Leica *cough*) or you're not taking enough pictures (*cough* collectors *cough*). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 2011-04-13 11:32, Steven Desjardins wrote: I appreciate that the old film cameras had a longer lifespan than the digital ones. The problem is that for many of us color was a thing left to the labs, whereas BW was a medium were we could do some PP. Now color is there as well. I started reading it and putting together a point by point rebuttal. It got way too long, way too fast. So, I'm going to sum up my response: Bull pucky! Starting with flawed definitions for professionalism and craftsmanship and going on down the line. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 12, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Jim King wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html I find that his writing displays neither professionalism, nor craftsmanship. Like others, I disagree with his definition of professionalism, and would describe it as doing a job that is good enough, without wasting too much time or resources on doing it better than it needs to be. Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though it's usually spelled a little differently. Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
MARK! On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote: The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though it's usually spelled a little differently. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 4/13/2011 9:39 AM, David J Brooks wrote: On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Mark Robertsm...@robertstech.com wrote: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. I'll do that Dave Given the perversity of the universe, all you'll manage to do is teach him how to spell... -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
I just loaded film into my ~30 year old LX, damn that camera is a joy to hold. On 4/13/2011 10:12 AM, David Parsons wrote: While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long does he really expect to be using his camera? You have to move on at some point. It's nostalgia speaking here. It's hip to say that you shoot film, and that you shot film before it was cool. Guess what, the rest of the world has moved on. If he wants to shoot film, he can do that. On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Jim Kingjamesk8...@mac.com wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: MARK! On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote: The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though it's usually spelled a little differently. It's actually fairly common that owners of high quality gear tend to fall into two groups. Those that spend the money because they need the quality, and those that buy the gear for bragging rights. There are also a few people that may not actually make full use of the performance, but buy the equipment from an aesthetic appreciation of the quality. The same is true of cameras, cars, tools, and probably sewing machines, dishwashers and vacuum cleaners. Of course, very few people actually think that they spend the extra money just for the snob appeal, they usually think that they're making use of the performance, or at least out of appreciation of, dare I say, the craftsmanship. I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than other brands, but cost so much less. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Writing such as this is more likely the result of a compensated inferiority complex. On 4/13/2011 11:32 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: I'm not a professional, and really not even a craftsman, but I recognize a superiority complex when I see one.Defense of the old ways in the name of professionalism is a fine way of looking down one's nose at all who differ from one's own way of doing things. Dan On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jim Kingjamesk8...@mac.com wrote: Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700 This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the posts here. I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of his style; his arguments for the old ways are worth considering, and some of his criticism of our digital era are on target IMO. Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:05 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: On 4/13/2011 9:39 AM, David J Brooks wrote: On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Mark Robertsm...@robertstech.com wrote: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the paragraph. I'll do that Dave Given the perversity of the universe, all you'll manage to do is teach him how to spell... Mark! I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 2011-04-13 14:25, Bob W wrote: Erwin Puts hardly ever writes anything worth reading, paragraphs or not. Har! I didn't even notice that! I'd change my name! -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52 years old. I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Bob W wrote: Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52 years old. I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. I certainly expect that you are entirely correct. I still suspect that either of us could take better pictures with a brick than Puts can with an M3. My C3 does have one significant advantage of over an M3. I have a C3 and not an M3. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Larry Colen wrote: My C3 does have one significant advantage of over an M3. I have a C3 and not an M3. Mark! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Bob W wrote: Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52 years old. I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question? -- Mark Roberts - Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
-Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question? behind the bike shed. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long does he really expect to be using his camera? You have to move on at some point. Why? That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the manufacturers, not the consumers. No, a justification for built-in obsolescence would be that the camera stopped working on a schedule decided by the manufacturer. Planning for a 20 year usable life-cycle is nowhere near planned obsolescence. It's not like Leica is not going to introduce more models in the next 19 years just in time to make the current model obsolete. It's nostalgia speaking here. It's hip to say that you shoot film, and that you shot film before it was cool. Guess what, the rest of the world has moved on. If he wants to shoot film, he can do that. He has an M9. He's moaning that the sensor will be f_cked in a relatively short time, and will reduce the lifespan of the camera compared to his M3. It seems perfectly reasonable to want a camera that costs £5,000.00 to last a long time. If the sensor fails after, say, 20 years, and the rest of the body is designed to last 50, someone in the accounting department will ask why they are wasting so much cost in the body, and lower the quality so that it too has a life expectancy of only 20 years, and before you know it Leicas will be made of cardboard. People are still using Leicas from the 13th century, or thereabouts. Long may they continue to do so! Yes, Leica's are well built, they are also status items, so stating that they should last longer because they cost more is silly. Part of the price is the name and reputation. I think its also disingenuous to think that the accountants are running the company, and to predict their future based on a stereotype of corporate behavior. Besides the fact the the sensor is designed to be replaced. Does a company that is obsoleting their products design an upgrade path? B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
-Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of David Parsons While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long does he really expect to be using his camera? You have to move on at some point. Why? That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the manufacturers, not the consumers. No, a justification for built-in obsolescence would be that the camera stopped working on a schedule decided by the manufacturer. Planning for a 20 year usable life-cycle is nowhere near planned obsolescence. It's not like Leica is not going to introduce more models in the next 19 years just in time to make the current model obsolete. you've misunderstood my reply, which was not specifically about the Leica, but about the claim 'you have to move on at some point'. Why do you have to move on? Making a claim like that is nonsense and plays into the hands of manufacturers. Companies, such as Leica, made and supported products for decades. Nobody claimed that you had to move one then. Why do you have to move on now? It's nostalgia speaking here. It's hip to say that you shoot film, and that you shot film before it was cool. Guess what, the rest of the world has moved on. If he wants to shoot film, he can do that. He has an M9. He's moaning that the sensor will be f_cked in a relatively short time, and will reduce the lifespan of the camera compared to his M3. It seems perfectly reasonable to want a camera that costs £5,000.00 to last a long time. If the sensor fails after, say, 20 years, and the rest of the body is designed to last 50, someone in the accounting department will ask why they are wasting so much cost in the body, and lower the quality so that it too has a life expectancy of only 20 years, and before you know it Leicas will be made of cardboard. People are still using Leicas from the 13th century, or thereabouts. Long may they continue to do so! Yes, Leica's are well built, they are also status items, so stating that they should last longer because they cost more is silly. Part of the price is the name and reputation. it's not silly, it's my opinion. If I pay a shit load of money for a camera I want it to last a fecking long time. I think its also disingenuous to think that the accountants are running the company, and to predict their future based on a stereotype of corporate behavior. I've been working in the corporate world for over 30 years - that's far too long to be disingenuous. Besides the fact the the sensor is designed to be replaced. Does a company that is obsoleting their products design an upgrade path? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Jim King jamesk8...@mac.com wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the Japanese Leica. Leica is most reknowned for its lenses and rangefinder cameras and Pentax—the name itself was derived from the pentaprism used in SLRs. Erwin Puts ... Well, his article would be a heck of a lot more readable and sensible if he learned how to use paragraphs to structure his thoughts. He rambles. I'm in the middle of re-reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now. I read it first in '76 or so, again about '81, and with all the water under the bridge since, reading it now points out some very interesting fallacies in the logic presented as Phaedrus' hunt for the 'ghost of rationality'. Some fundamental premises seem just plain wrong to me now. But, achingly clawing my way through this mass of text, I do agree with Puts' fundamental premise, although the words he uses are strangely construed. In the modern world of equipment über alles, too much weight is lent to numbers without a shred of intelligible discourse given to the why of their primacy. Everything is opinion, belief and a faith-healer's trust that numbers don't lie. Well, the numbers are just numbers: they're evidence, not truth. Interpreting the numbers is where art and understanding lies. Just like we can confuse ourselves and think we are increasing our understanding when we banter on about how photosites work, photon counting, etc, the truth is that very little of this has much to do with photography and a lot to do with technology and engineering. Being able to stand back from the technology, see how the equipment behaves and then bending it to our purpose of producing photographs, not theorizing about the engineering of better equipment, is often lost. Equipment cannot make photographs. Only people can. People with eyes, sensitivity, and skill to know how to work the equipment. Truly ...equipment often gets in the way of Photography. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the Japanese Leica. That was commonly reported from Japan around 1976, soon after the introduction of the MX. Some Japanese folks perceived the MX as the new Leica: small, basic, smooth and pleasant to use. In other words, the Leica philosophy in a (then) current camera. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Dario Bonazza dario.bona...@virgilio.it wrote: Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the Japanese Leica. That was commonly reported from Japan around 1976, soon after the introduction of the MX. Some Japanese folks perceived the MX as the new Leica: small, basic, smooth and pleasant to use. In other words, the Leica philosophy in a (then) current camera. I heard the same thing in reference to the Olympus OM-1 about that time. Rumor had it that Olympus was going to name the camera the M-1 but didn't after Leica protested ... -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Bob W wrote: Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52 years old. I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question? The first time I drove a Dodge van on the track, I was turning faster laptimes in my van than I had been in my Corolla. I was also turning faster laptimes than one of the students in his second generation MR2. I did realize that if I rolled the toyota up into a little ball I could tow it home in the van, the function was not commutable. The one time I drove my current van on the track, I had to drive so slow so that my current student could keep up, I have no idea as to it's performance abilities. I don't have any direct experience with a Dodge Van and a Porsche, but I did have a student once, who by the end of the day was keeping up with my Honda stationwagon in his carrera 4. Some years back, Grassroots Motorsports did a laptime comparison between a Honda Odyssey and a Jaguar E-type on an autocross course. The Odyssey was substantially faster. In any case, depending on the van, the porsche and the racetrack, there's a good chance that I could turn a faster laptime than him, if I were in a Dodge Van and he were in a Porsche. Given drivers of equal skill, and a 1/2 ton van with a 360 and swaybars versus a 914/1.8 and upgraded swaybars, I wouldn't be surprised if the van took on the porsche. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 14/04/2011 01:01, Larry Colen wrote: On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question? The first time I drove a Dodge van on the track, I was turning faster laptimes in my van than I had been in my Corolla. I was also turning faster laptimes than one of the students in his second generation MR2. I did realize that if I rolled the toyota up into a little ball I could tow it home in the van, the function was not commutable. The one time I drove my current van on the track, I had to drive so slow so that my current student could keep up, I have no idea as to it's performance abilities. I don't have any direct experience with a Dodge Van and a Porsche, but I did have a student once, who by the end of the day was keeping up with my Honda stationwagon in his carrera 4. Some years back, Grassroots Motorsports did a laptime comparison between a Honda Odyssey and a Jaguar E-type on an autocross course. The Odyssey was substantially faster. In any case, depending on the van, the porsche and the racetrack, there's a good chance that I could turn a faster laptime than him, if I were in a Dodge Van and he were in a Porsche. Given drivers of equal skill, and a 1/2 ton van with a 360 and swaybars versus a 914/1.8 and upgraded swaybars, I wouldn't be surprised if the van took on the porsche. How about a Jaguar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaQmOkBvWh0feature=related Forward to about 5.00minutes if you don't want the history lesson. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 7:01 PM, Larry Colen wrote: On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Bob W wrote: Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52 years old. I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question? The first time I drove a Dodge van on the track, I was turning faster laptimes in my van than I had been in my Corolla. I was also turning faster laptimes than one of the students in his second generation MR2. I did realize that if I rolled the toyota up into a little ball I could tow it home in the van, the function was not commutable. The one time I drove my current van on the track, I had to drive so slow so that my current student could keep up, I have no idea as to it's performance abilities. I don't have any direct experience with a Dodge Van and a Porsche, but I did have a student once, who by the end of the day was keeping up with my Honda stationwagon in his carrera 4. Some years back, Grassroots Motorsports did a laptime comparison between a Honda Odyssey and a Jaguar E-type on an autocross course. The Odyssey was substantially faster. In any case, depending on the van, the porsche and the racetrack, there's a good chance that I could turn a faster laptime than him, if I were in a Dodge Van and he were in a Porsche. Given drivers of equal skill, and a 1/2 ton van with a 360 and swaybars versus a 914/1.8 and upgraded swaybars, I wouldn't be surprised if the van took on the porsche. And of course, you could haul a lot more groceries in your Dodge van. Function counts. Paul -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700 (snip) I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than other brands, but cost so much less. Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the same thing. Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this post has centered on form rather than substance... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:25:25 -0700 LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the Japanese Leica. I read it somewhere, probably Modern Photography way back in the day when Herbert Keppler was still active. Leica is most reknowned for its lenses and rangefinder cameras and Pentax—the name itself was derived from the pentaprism used in SLRs. Erwin Puts ... Well, his article would be a heck of a lot more readable and sensible if he learned how to use paragraphs to structure his thoughts. He rambles. Does he ever. Trying to follow his thoughts is a real challenge. His camera and lens reviews are equally turgid... But there is often some gold buries in the dross. I'm in the middle of re-reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now. I read it first in '76 or so, again about '81, and with all the water under the bridge since, reading it now points out some very interesting fallacies in the logic presented as Phaedrus' hunt for the 'ghost of rationality'. Some fundamental premises seem just plain wrong to me now. But, achingly clawing my way through this mass of text, I do agree with Puts' fundamental premise, although the words he uses are strangely construed. In the modern world of equipment über alles, too much weight is lent to numbers without a shred of intelligible discourse given to the why of their primacy. Everything is opinion, belief and a faith-healer's trust that numbers don't lie. Well, the numbers are just numbers: they're evidence, not truth. Interpreting the numbers is where art and understanding lies. Just like we can confuse ourselves and think we are increasing our understanding when we banter on about how photosites work, photon counting, etc, the truth is that very little of this has much to do with photography and a lot to do with technology and engineering. Being able to stand back from the technology, see how the equipment behaves and then bending it to our purpose of producing photographs, not theorizing about the engineering of better equipment, is often lost. Equipment cannot make photographs. Only people can. People with eyes, sensitivity, and skill to know how to work the equipment. Truly ...equipment often gets in the way of Photography. Well said, Godders. I'd like to hear more comments in this vein from other regulars here. Regards, Jim -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Well, one problem with his arguments is figuring out what the hell his arguments are. Numbers aren't everything? Absolutely. Any numbers in particular or are we just generally embracing innumeracy? And what precisely does this have to do with his old Leica? There were good lenses in the old days made with computer help. Lots of crappy ones too. In the price range I can afford, the newer ones are better. The older film technology is simpler and, as is often the case, this makes it more robust. Modern electronic cameras are more complicated and have many, many more pieces which can fail. Again, how does this relate to craftsmanship? There will never be hand crafted electronics in the way mechanical objects were made. Two different kinds of devices such as these are difficult to compare. I vividly remember the early days of digital when numbers were constantly used to prove that digital could never replace film. We would need at least 25 MP to replace film. Of course, film was essentially taken out by the 6 mp APS-C DSLRs because, numbers aside, the DSLRs produced images that were more than good enough for what people were using them for. Film photography with his M3 (M3, right?) was a slower, more careful, and maybe more satisfying process. Digital is also satisfying because post-processing can improve my images, assuming I didn't screw them up in the first place. Different processes with different charms. On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Jim King jamesk8...@mac.com wrote: Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700 rpcoess (snip) I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than other brands, but cost so much less. Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the same thing. Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this post has centered on form rather than substance... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Sigh. Make that made without computer help. It's hard to find reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens. On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote: Well, one problem with his arguments is figuring out what the hell his arguments are. Numbers aren't everything? Absolutely. Any numbers in particular or are we just generally embracing innumeracy? And what precisely does this have to do with his old Leica? There were good lenses in the old days made with computer help. Lots of crappy ones too. In the price range I can afford, the newer ones are better. The older film technology is simpler and, as is often the case, this makes it more robust. Modern electronic cameras are more complicated and have many, many more pieces which can fail. Again, how does this relate to craftsmanship? There will never be hand crafted electronics in the way mechanical objects were made. Two different kinds of devices such as these are difficult to compare. I vividly remember the early days of digital when numbers were constantly used to prove that digital could never replace film. We would need at least 25 MP to replace film. Of course, film was essentially taken out by the 6 mp APS-C DSLRs because, numbers aside, the DSLRs produced images that were more than good enough for what people were using them for. Film photography with his M3 (M3, right?) was a slower, more careful, and maybe more satisfying process. Digital is also satisfying because post-processing can improve my images, assuming I didn't screw them up in the first place. Different processes with different charms. On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Jim King jamesk8...@mac.com wrote: Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700 rpcoess (snip) I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than other brands, but cost so much less. Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the same thing. Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this post has centered on form rather than substance... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 2011-04-12 20:58 , Jim King wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ okay -- i'll bite; i find Erwin Puts' essay to wishy-washy; it's internally contradictory; he seems to romanticize film process as if it were purely intuitive, yet he then warns against common sense Puts seems to define professionalism as technical mastery (to me it is as much about ethics, efficiency and emotional detachment), but accepting his definition, i would disagree with him overall that technical mastery must conflict with craft this is hardly unique to photography -- i think of how a grounding in CPU instruction sets and binary logic, of which i'm rarely conscious these days, gave me confidence and trained my mind for much more abstract programming; and i think of how my rudimentary technical knowledge of sailing has held me back despite a strong intuitive sense of the helm from an entire teen-hood of intense practice i think there are many valid paths; one wonders if Puts' self-expressed attunement to film and exposure came about without any rigorous technical work ... that can happen, but when it does it usually comes from intense, if intuitive, practice and/or that unconscious genius which silently computes and internalizes technical knowledge for a few lucky people (as it struck me when Bob Sullivan recently commented that Gallia's gonna be mighty good by the time she's a teenager, and she won't really know why.) so genius can take care of it, practice can breed intuition without technical understanding, and study of details can allow one to rise above details; or any combination thereof -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote: Sigh. Make that made without computer help. It's hard to find reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens. Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's what I concluded and it works well. Reading glasses are focused closer than monitor glasses. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
I forgot Bob's comment about Gallia. Thanks for pointing that out. -Original Message- From: steve harley p...@paper-ape.com Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:22:20 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism On 2011-04-12 20:58 , Jim King wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ okay -- i'll bite; i find Erwin Puts' essay to wishy-washy; it's internally contradictory; he seems to romanticize film process as if it were purely intuitive, yet he then warns against common sense Puts seems to define professionalism as technical mastery (to me it is as much about ethics, efficiency and emotional detachment), but accepting his definition, i would disagree with him overall that technical mastery must conflict with craft this is hardly unique to photography -- i think of how a grounding in CPU instruction sets and binary logic, of which i'm rarely conscious these days, gave me confidence and trained my mind for much more abstract programming; and i think of how my rudimentary technical knowledge of sailing has held me back despite a strong intuitive sense of the helm from an entire teen-hood of intense practice i think there are many valid paths; one wonders if Puts' self-expressed attunement to film and exposure came about without any rigorous technical work ... that can happen, but when it does it usually comes from intense, if intuitive, practice and/or that unconscious genius which silently computes and internalizes technical knowledge for a few lucky people (as it struck me when Bob Sullivan recently commented that Gallia's gonna be mighty good by the time she's a teenager, and she won't really know why.) so genius can take care of it, practice can breed intuition without technical understanding, and study of details can allow one to rise above details; or any combination thereof -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
Are there monitor glasses? -Original Message- From: Bruce Walker bruce.wal...@gmail.com Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:25:06 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism] On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote: Sigh. Make that made without computer help. It's hard to find reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens. Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's what I concluded and it works well. Reading glasses are focused closer than monitor glasses. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
Yes, in the following sense. My optometrist asks me what my intended use for the glasses is, I say computer monitor, he gets me to sit in front of an LCD monitor as I would normally, measures distances and adjusts the prescription accordingly. Voila! monitor glasses. I did have to change optometrists when the crusty old guy couldn't understand my request. The new guy said, of course! Knew exactly what I was complaining about. -bmw On 11-04-13 9:31 PM, drd1...@gmail.com wrote: Are there monitor glasses? -Original Message- From: Bruce Walkerbruce.wal...@gmail.com Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:25:06 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism] On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote: Sigh. Make that made without computer help. It's hard to find reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens. Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's what I concluded and it works well. Reading glasses are focused closer than monitor glasses. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
I've been trying to do this myself with cheap readers with mixed success. I guess I may need a pro. -Original Message- From: Bruce Walker bruce.wal...@gmail.com Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:37:16 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism] Yes, in the following sense. My optometrist asks me what my intended use for the glasses is, I say computer monitor, he gets me to sit in front of an LCD monitor as I would normally, measures distances and adjusts the prescription accordingly. Voila! monitor glasses. I did have to change optometrists when the crusty old guy couldn't understand my request. The new guy said, of course! Knew exactly what I was complaining about. -bmw On 11-04-13 9:31 PM, drd1...@gmail.com wrote: Are there monitor glasses? -Original Message- From: Bruce Walkerbruce.wal...@gmail.com Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:25:06 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism] On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote: Sigh. Make that made without computer help. It's hard to find reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens. Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's what I concluded and it works well. Reading glasses are focused closer than monitor glasses. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 13/04/2011 12:36 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote: On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Bob Wp...@web-options.com wrote: While it would be nice for a camera to last forever, I don't see much to complain about in relation to the days of film. My K10D is 4 years old. It still works fine. I want a K-5, but only because the K-5 is better, not because the K10D is any worse than when I got it. In the 4 years I've had my K10D, I estimate that I would have spent about $3,000 in film and processing to take the same number of exposures on film. So if my K10D dies today, why should I complain about the cost of a new body? If periodic replacement/upgrade of digital bodies isn't cheaper than shooting film, then either you're spending too much on the bodies (*cough* Leica *cough*) or you're not taking enough pictures (*cough* collectors *cough*). Everyone who feels the need to justify digital trots out that canardy old nag at least one in the discussion. It really has no bearing on how long a camera should last if you buy a good one. Out of curiosity, what have you spent on computers, storage media and software (be honest, what would you have spent if you hadn't stolen your software, for example) How much of your life have you wasted squinting at a computer screen when you could have just picked up a box of slides? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 13/04/2011 1:48 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: MARK! On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Larry Colenl...@red4est.com wrote: The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though it's usually spelled a little differently. Please no. I just read the online version of the 2011 PDML annual, and the quotations list has gone from a page of pithy comments to several pages of absolute shit with the occasional gobbet of something noteworthy. Larry's comment is merely derogatory, not noteworthy. Trust me, I know the difference. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 13/04/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote: I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than other brands, but cost so much less. Just the lenses. The bodies are, for the most part, pretty crappy compared to what else is out there. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:08 PM, William Robb anotherdrunken...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity, what have you spent on computers, storage media and software (be honest, what would you have spent if you hadn't stolen your software, for example) I'm a computer geek. Photo editing is not the driver of my hardware purchases; my old Athlon 64 ran Bibble just fine. My marginal cost has been Bibble Lite at $99 and IMatch at whatever it cost ($100), four years ago when I bought my K10D. I'm likely to buy Lightroom in the next year, at $250, or less if a good sale comes up. None of my software is pirated. How much of your life have you wasted squinting at a computer screen when you could have just picked up a box of slides? I spent metric fuckloads of time cutting and sleeving film and putting it in binders and spotting prints and writing down the way that I printed everything, trying to sketch my dodging and burning and recording my times and temperatures. I don't miss it. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 13/04/2011 8:18 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote: I'm a computer geek. Photo editing is not the driver of my hardware purchases; my old Athlon 64 ran Bibble just fine. My marginal cost has been Bibble Lite at $99 and IMatch at whatever it cost ($100), four years ago when I bought my K10D. I'm likely to buy Lightroom in the next year, at $250, or less if a good sale comes up. None of my software is pirated. I spent metric fuckloads of time cutting and sleeving film and putting it in binders and spotting prints and writing down the way that I printed everything, trying to sketch my dodging and burning and recording my times and temperatures. I don't miss it. I would say you are the exception, not the rule. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:33 PM, William Robb anotherdrunken...@gmail.com wrote: I would say you are the exception, not the rule. I would say that you are older than I am. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:33 PM, William Robb wrote: On 13/04/2011 8:18 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote: I'm a computer geek. Photo editing is not the driver of my hardware purchases; my old Athlon 64 ran Bibble just fine. My marginal cost has been Bibble Lite at $99 and IMatch at whatever it cost ($100), four years ago when I bought my K10D. I'm likely to buy Lightroom in the next year, at $250, or less if a good sale comes up. None of my software is pirated. I spent metric fuckloads of time cutting and sleeving film and putting it in binders and spotting prints and writing down the way that I printed everything, trying to sketch my dodging and burning and recording my times and temperatures. I don't miss it. I would say you are the exception, not the rule. Much of my photo work was in the digital world long before I quit shooting film, The sensor of the digital camera merely replaced the scanning operation. That had become true for anyone whose photographic ambitions extended beyond personal enjoyment. Paul -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
On 2011-04-13 19:44 , drd1...@gmail.com wrote: I've been trying to do this myself with cheap readers with mixed success. I guess I may need a pro. i use 1.25 regular readers (which i even need for distance viewing), but i prefer 1.50 for my computer displays (which are more than an arm's length away) and especially for reading my iPhone if your prescription seems compatible with reading glasses, but you have difficulty with off-the-shelf readers you may need to better match your pupil distance; i haven't needed to, but i got the idea from here: http://ask.metafilter.com/112020/Eye-glasses-online personally my favorite readers have come from icu, both retail and online (icueyewear.com) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 4/13/2011 5:14 PM, Bob W wrote: Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3. However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van. I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52 years old. I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all respects expect brickiness. But it truly excels at brickiness... B -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Jim King wrote: Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:25:25 -0700 [Much commentary clipped from the original] Equipment cannot make photographs. Only people can. People with eyes, sensitivity, and skill to know how to work the equipment. Truly ...equipment often gets in the way of Photography. Well said, Godders. I'd like to hear more comments in this vein from other regulars here. Regards, Jim -- Jim, I read this piece last night (after W. Robb kindly pointed out how I needed to access the site. Duh.) My recollection/interpretation of the key points the author was making is as follows: a. Close enough is good enough. Set the camera for the conditions and take photos already. b. Intuition is better than logic. Well, he doesn't actually say that, but the whole lens-design bit about how good experienced lens designers can do better than a computer program is in that same vein. I agree with (a). I think we all (except Bob W. and Frank) sometimes let ourselves be driven by a fascination with the electromechanical gee-whiziness of our cameras, and we strive for vanishingly small degrees of precision in aspects like exposure, color balance, focus etc., thereby losing some ability to see, to visualize, and to create an image that we and others will care about. Trust me; the research on cognition clearly shows that we have limited capacity, and attending to technical details must diminish the extent to which we are attending to the image as image. I disagree with (b). Intuitive decisions are no better than logical decisions; see Chapter 7 in my 2009 book on developing leaders for links to relevant research. I would agree that an experienced designer is far more likely to generate an innovative solution than an inexperienced designer, but the tools they use will have no bearing on the outcome. A designer who has grown up on CAD/CAM and who is good at his job is just as likely to be good as is a designer who grew up grinding lenses by hand using polishing cloths made from passenger pigeon skins. Actually, the modern designer is likely to have an edge since he can try more iterations and hence has more trial-and-error learning opportunities. My general assessment is that the author is a romantic, yearning for the good old days when life was simple. It is unfortunate that he picks on a particular consumer product as the focus of his discussion, because it leads people to talk about the goodness and badness of Leicas more than the merits of his apparent assumption that things used to be simple and are no longer so. BTW, i recently had my father-in-law's M-2 refurbished, torn shutter curtain repaired, etc. It sits here on the shelf by my desk. Every time I pick it up I am surprised by what a large heavy unwieldy camera it is. It may be simple, but it is pretty primitive. For usability I'll take a Minox EL, Olympus OM-1, Pentax ME-Super, LX, or MZ-S any day. And of course the current generation DSLRs provide so much more functionality than the Leicas ever had. And they allow us to take pretty good images as long as we remember that close enough is good enough. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
On Apr 13, 2011, at 11:01 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-04-13 19:44 , drd1...@gmail.com wrote: I've been trying to do this myself with cheap readers with mixed success. I guess I may need a pro. i use 1.25 regular readers (which i even need for distance viewing), but i prefer 1.50 for my computer displays (which are more than an arm's length away) and especially for reading my iPhone Are you sure you don't have that reversed? I use 1.75 or 2.0 for reading, but a 1.50 for the more distant computer screen. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On Apr 13, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Jim King wrote: Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700 (snip) I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than other brands, but cost so much less. Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the same thing. My dad used to bemoan slob appeal as much as he decried snob appeal. Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this post has centered on form rather than substance... I think that in large part this is because the post itself was more about form than substance. He was lauding the craftsmanship and deriding professionalism, without regard to the quality of the final product. A craftsman is someone who makes the best possible use of his tools, whether it's a handplane, table saw, slide rule, or an optics modeling program running on hardware that would have given Seymour Cray a priapism. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
On 2011-04-13 21:29 , Stan Halpin wrote: On Apr 13, 2011, at 11:01 PM, steve harley wrote: i use 1.25 regular readers (which i even need for distance viewing), but i prefer 1.50 for my computer displays (which are more than an arm's length away) and especially for reading my iPhone Are you sure you don't have that reversed? I use 1.75 or 2.0 for reading, but a 1.50 for the more distant computer screen. yes, i'm sure, but my wording was a little opaque; i put quotes around readers because i use 1.25 for middle distances to infinity -- not for reading -- and 1.50 seem good for for computer displays, phone screens or books; i just checked and i'm 29 inches from my displays, and i tend to hold my phone at about 19 inches -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 2011-04-13 23:39, Larry Colen wrote: Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this post has centered on form rather than substance... I think that in large part this is because the post itself was more about form than substance. He was lauding the craftsmanship and deriding professionalism, without regard to the quality of the final product. Actually, he was lauding some conception of craftsmanship and deriding some conception of professionalism, neither concept matching any better than tangentially what my dictionaries say the terms mean. Further, his muddled presentation was a far bigger hindrance to understanding than his inability to insert a paragraph break. In the end, assuming I managed to find what he wanted me to find in the muddle, I still think he's full of bovine excrement. He's all fussed up in his little box and ignoring, or just not getting, the larger picture. Or maybe he's just tilting at windmills. Anyway, the end result, from my point of view, is pointless drivel. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
404 error either with the backslash shown or with a forward slash . . . BTW, now do they say that the Leica is the German Pentax? stan On Apr 12, 2011, at 10:58 PM, Jim King wrote: This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for some of you as well: http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\ Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica... Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
On 12/04/2011 9:05 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: 404 error either with the backslash shown or with a forward slash . . . Remove the slash entirely... -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism
Thanks Bill. I thought I had tried that variation. Too much tequila tonight, I was working on tax returns . . . stan On Apr 12, 2011, at 11:12 PM, William Robb wrote: On 12/04/2011 9:05 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: 404 error either with the backslash shown or with a forward slash . . . Remove the slash entirely... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
