subject:"Re\: printing"


> On Sep 7, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Sep 6, 2019, at 11:50 PM, P. J. Alling  wrote:
>> 
>> I'll just jump in here and confuse things a bit.  You'll always get the same 
>> number of pixels from any given camera, but the quality of the pixels count 
>> too.  Higher ISO will have an effect.
>> 
>> Usually all things being equal higher noise which will degrade image quality 
>> in any give size print.  www.imaging-resource.com has a section of their 
>> reviews dedicated to how large a picture you can print based on the sensor's 
>> maximum pixels and ISO.
>> 
>> You might want to check out if they have a review of your model and see what 
>> they have to say.
> 
> Thanks. Appreciate the reference. I’ll check it out.

Do you have a specific reference, P.J.? This article is somewhat relevant but 
doesn’t strike me as what you were referring to.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"The invincible shield of caring Is a weapon 
sent from the sky against being dead." 

- Tao Te Ching 67


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Re: Printing


> On Sep 7, 2019, at 3:24 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, you might want to not worry overmuch about the theory of 
> things.  Knarf had an interesting quote in his signature about sharpness.
> 
> Nine years ago I went to burning man for my 50th birthday.  I shot about 
> eight rolls of film in my Argus and about ten times as many frames with my 
> DSLRs. The photos taken with the DSLRs were significantly sharper, and 
> cleaner in pretty much every measurable way than the photos with taken with 
> the Argus, but one thing I realized was that artistically they weren’t any 
> better.  
> 
> There are times when a lack of sharpness can negatively impact a photo, 
> however if that is because the print is too big, then just display the photo 
> someplace that people can’t leave nose prints on it from looking at it that 
> closely.

A couple of my favorite photos, e.g., a shot into Grand Canyon on a rainy day 
with lots of foggy haze in the canyons; a blurry shot from behind of a five 
year old granddaughter joining the adult line dance at her aunt’s wedding, are 
distinctly fuzzy.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“Man has been a murderer forever.”

- Peter Matthiessen.


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Re: Printing


> On Sep 6, 2019, at 11:50 PM, P. J. Alling  wrote:
> 
> I'll just jump in here and confuse things a bit.  You'll always get the same 
> number of pixels from any given camera, but the quality of the pixels count 
> too.  Higher ISO will have an effect.
> 
> Usually all things being equal higher noise which will degrade image quality 
> in any give size print.  www.imaging-resource.com has a section of their 
> reviews dedicated to how large a picture you can print based on the sensor's 
> maximum pixels and ISO.
> 
> You might want to check out if they have a review of your model and see what 
> they have to say.

Thanks. Appreciate the reference. I’ll check it out.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 

- Chief Seattle






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Re: Printing


> On Sep 6, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:39 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>>> 
 
 On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
 
 Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
 gotten my prints done at Costco.
>>> 
>>> Thanks to Larry and Ken for comments/suggestions regarding printing 
>>> services. If Flickr uses Bay I think I’ll give them a try.
>> 
>> Ordered my first print from Bay. It might be more convenient than via 
>> Flickr. I won’t always be printing photos posted to Flickr.
> 
> It is almost a certainty that your bits will flow through some cable that I 
> installed.

II had to think about that. 浪

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"You keep on learning and learning, and pretty soon
you learn something no one has learned before." 

- Richard Feynman


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Re: Printing

2019-09-07 Thread Larry Colen

> On Sep 6, 2019, at 8:50 PM, P. J. Alling  wrote:
> 
> I'll just jump in here and confuse things a bit.  You'll always get the same 
> number of pixels from any given camera, but the quality of the pixels count 
> too.  Higher ISO will have an effect.
> 
> Usually all things being equal higher noise which will degrade image quality 
> in any give size print.  www.imaging-resource.com has a section of their 
> reviews dedicated to how large a picture you can print based on the sensor's 
> maximum pixels and ISO.
> 
> You might want to check out if they have a review of your model and see what 
> they have to say.

On the other hand, you might want to not worry overmuch about the theory of 
things.  Knarf had an interesting quote in his signature about sharpness.

Nine years ago I went to burning man for my 50th birthday.  I shot about eight 
rolls of film in my Argus and about ten times as many frames with my DSLRs. The 
photos taken with the DSLRs were significantly sharper, and cleaner in pretty 
much every measurable way than the photos with taken with the Argus, but one 
thing I realized was that artistically they weren’t any better.  

There are times when a lack of sharpness can negatively impact a photo, however 
if that is because the print is too big, then just display the photo someplace 
that people can’t leave nose prints on it from looking at it that closely.

--
Larry Colen
l...@red4est.com

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Re: Printing

2019-09-06 Thread P. J. Alling

I'll just jump in here and confuse things a bit.  You'll always get the 
same number of pixels from any given camera, but the quality of the 
pixels count too.  Higher ISO will have an effect.


Usually all things being equal higher noise which will degrade image 
quality in any give size print.  www.imaging-resource.com has a section 
of their reviews dedicated to how large a picture you can print based on 
the sensor's maximum pixels and ISO.


You might want to check out if they have a review of your model and see 
what they have to say.


On 9/5/2019 11:57 AM, Eric Weir wrote:



On Sep 5, 2019, at 11:50 AM, John  wrote:

On 9/5/2019 11:08:33, Eric Weir wrote:

So now two questions: (1) My image is 72 dpi/ppi, far short of 240 dpi/ppi.
What can I do with that, i.e., what’s the largest print I could get? (2) The
camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 25.
Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints with
this camera?

No, your image is 4032 x 2268 pixels.

72 dpi is the display resolution. Has nothing to do with printing.

Printed at 240 ppi, 4032 x 2268 pixels will give a print 16.8" x 9.45".

A good "printer" (i.e. service bureau like Bay Photo) can probably work with 200 ppi to 
give you a print up to 20.16" x 11.34" which could be cropped to the 20x10 print you 
wanted.

... although the guy in the back actually doing the printing is probably going 
to call you bad names. They much prefer at least 300 ppi.

But, when I was running the mini-lab I could get an "acceptable" result with as 
little as 150 ppi (C-type on Kodak Endura glossy paper).

OK, now I understand. (I think.) One last question. (I hope.) What determines 
the size of the image I get with my camera, i.e., my phone? Is it always the 
same? Is iso a factor?

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"The invincible shield of caring Is a weapon
sent from the sky against being dead."

- Tao Te Ching 67



--
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America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please.
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Re: Printing

2019-09-06 Thread Larry Colen


> On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:39 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
>>> gotten my prints done at Costco.
>> 
>> Thanks to Larry and Ken for comments/suggestions regarding printing 
>> services. If Flickr uses Bay I think I’ll give them a try.
> 
> Ordered my first print from Bay. It might be more convenient than via Flickr. 
> I won’t always be printing photos posted to Flickr.

It is almost a certainty that your bits will flow through some cable that I 
installed.


--
Larry Colen
l...@red4est.com




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Re: Printing

2019-09-06 Thread Eric Weir


> On Sep 4, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
>> 
>> Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
>> gotten my prints done at Costco.
> 
> Thanks to Larry and Ken for comments/suggestions regarding printing services. 
> If Flickr uses Bay I think I’ll give them a try.

Ordered my first print from Bay. It might be more convenient than via Flickr. I 
won’t always be printing photos posted to Flickr.
  
--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 

- Chief Seattle






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Re: Printing

> On Sep 5, 2019, at 1:41 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> Thanks again, Godfrey.

My pleasure. 

G

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Re: Printing


> On Sep 5, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
>>> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:57 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What determines the size of the image I get with my camera, i.e., my phone? 
>>> Is it always the same? Is iso a factor?
>> 
>> The number of pixels in a full frame capture will always be the same.
> 
> ... ISO will affect how much noise is apparent in the image. With the teensy 
> little sensors in a phone camera, the lower the ISO the better the noise 
> behavior and the better the tonal scale. With camera apps that allow you to 
> control ISO on the iPhone. It's best for good photos to keep the ISO under 
> 100 whenever you can. 
> 
> But of course, too long an exposure can cause camera movement which also 
> kills image quality. So you have to work to the limits of the device's 
> capabilities. :-)

Thanks again, Godfrey.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“Man has been a murderer forever.”

- Peter Matthiessen.


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Re: Printing


> On Sep 5, 2019, at 12:01 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> The camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 
>> 25. Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints 
>> with this camera?
> 
> An iPhone 6s image at ISO 25, presuming a good exposure with the camera held 
> steadily enough, can net a beautiful print to the limits of the number of 
> pixels. 

Thanks.

> For instance, this is made with an iPhone 8 Plus (similar number of pixels) 
> and prints to a beautiful 13x13 inch print, or maybe larger: 
> 
> https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48625474017_8258d4fa1d_c.jpg

Very nice.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“This permanent doubt, the deep source of science.”

- Carlo Rovelli


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Re: Printing


> On Sep 5, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> So now two questions: (1) My image is 72 dpi/ppi, far short of 240 dpi/ppi. 
>> What can I do with that, i.e., what’s the largest print I could get? (2) The 
>> camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 25. 
>> Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints with 
>> this camera?
> 
> Where are you obtaining the 72 ppi number from? Probably the display you're 
> looking at. :-)
> 
> When it comes to printing and sizing an image, the number of pixels is 
> everything. If you want to find out how large an image area can be printed at 
> a reasonable quality, divide the horizontal and vertical dimensions by 240 to 
> give a dimension in inches. 
> 
> For instance, say you have a 2400 x 4800 pixel image. Divide by 240 nets a 10 
> x 20 inch print. :-)
> 
> Ja? 

Ja! And thanks.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred." 

- Amos Oz


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Re: Printing

>> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:57 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> What determines the size of the image I get with my camera, i.e., my phone? 
>> Is it always the same? Is iso a factor?
> 
> The number of pixels in a full frame capture will always be the same.

... ISO will affect how much noise is apparent in the image. With the teensy 
little sensors in a phone camera, the lower the ISO the better the noise 
behavior and the better the tonal scale. With camera apps that allow you to 
control ISO on the iPhone. It's best for good photos to keep the ISO under 100 
whenever you can. 

But of course, too long an exposure can cause camera movement which also kills 
image quality. So you have to work to the limits of the device's capabilities. 
:-)

G

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Re: Printing




Godfrey
-- 
Godfrey DiGiorgi - godfreydigio...@me.com - 408.431.4601 cell
> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:57 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> What determines the size of the image I get with my camera, i.e., my phone? 
> Is it always the same? Is iso a factor?

The number of pixels in a full frame capture will always be the same. 

G

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Re: Printing

> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> The camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 
> 25. Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints 
> with this camera?

An iPhone 6s image at ISO 25, presuming a good exposure with the camera held 
steadily enough, can net a beautiful print to the limits of the number of 
pixels. 

For instance, this is made with an iPhone 8 Plus (similar number of pixels) and 
prints to a beautiful 13x13 inch print, or maybe larger: 

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48625474017_8258d4fa1d_c.jpg

G

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Re: Printing

On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> So now two questions: (1) My image is 72 dpi/ppi, far short of 240 dpi/ppi. 
> What can I do with that, i.e., what’s the largest print I could get? (2) The 
> camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 25. 
> Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints with 
> this camera?

Where are you obtaining the 72 ppi number from? Probably the display you're 
looking at. :-)

When it comes to printing and sizing an image, the number of pixels is 
everything. If you want to find out how large an image area can be printed at a 
reasonable quality, divide the horizontal and vertical dimensions by 240 to 
give a dimension in inches. 

For instance, say you have a 2400 x 4800 pixel image. Divide by 240 nets a 10 x 
20 inch print. :-)

Ja? 

G

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Re: Printing



> On Sep 5, 2019, at 11:50 AM, John  wrote:
> 
> On 9/5/2019 11:08:33, Eric Weir wrote:
>> 
>> So now two questions: (1) My image is 72 dpi/ppi, far short of 240 dpi/ppi.
>> What can I do with that, i.e., what’s the largest print I could get? (2) The
>> camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 25.
>> Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints with
>> this camera?
> 
> No, your image is 4032 x 2268 pixels.
> 
> 72 dpi is the display resolution. Has nothing to do with printing.
> 
> Printed at 240 ppi, 4032 x 2268 pixels will give a print 16.8" x 9.45".
> 
> A good "printer" (i.e. service bureau like Bay Photo) can probably work with 
> 200 ppi to give you a print up to 20.16" x 11.34" which could be cropped to 
> the 20x10 print you wanted.
> 
> ... although the guy in the back actually doing the printing is probably 
> going to call you bad names. They much prefer at least 300 ppi.
> 
> But, when I was running the mini-lab I could get an "acceptable" result with 
> as little as 150 ppi (C-type on Kodak Endura glossy paper).

OK, now I understand. (I think.) One last question. (I hope.) What determines 
the size of the image I get with my camera, i.e., my phone? Is it always the 
same? Is iso a factor?

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"The invincible shield of caring Is a weapon 
sent from the sky against being dead." 

- Tao Te Ching 67


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Re: Printing

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 10:32 PM, John  wrote:
> 
> Generally, "72 dpi" is screen resolution. You don't want to print at "72 dpi" 
> because it will look like crap.
> 
> At the 240ppi Godfrey mentioned 4032 x 2268 pixels gives you 16.8 x 9.45 
> inches.
> 
> To get a 20" wide print, 4032 pixels is going to give you around "201 ppi", 
> suggesting a crop to 2016 pixels high (for a 10 x 20 print).
> 
> A good "printer" should be able to give you an adequate 10x20 C-Type print if 
> the JPEG quality is high enough (2.5MB file size suggests it might be just 
> barely), although you're going to have to crop it to get that aspect ratio.

Thanks, John. I’m confused. Not that you’re confusing, just that the limits of 
my knowledge are again being tested. So the 72 dpi figure has nothing to do 
with the size of print that can be obtained? The latter is a function of the 
available pixels and the dimensions of the print? 

In your third paragraph I don’t understand “suggesting a crop to 2016 pixels 
high (for a 10 x 20 print).” I can increase the ppi for a given dimension of 
print, e.g., 10 x 20, by cropping the image? My assumption would be that the 
only way to increase the ppi would be to reduce the size of the print.

Your last paragraph: You think I can get a decent 10 x 20 print from the image 
I described?

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred." 

- Amos Oz

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Re: Printing

2019-09-05 Thread John


On 9/5/2019 11:08:33, Eric Weir wrote:



On Sep 4, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi 
wrote:

Can’t give you much advice on print services since I always do my own
prints. But be aware that that pixel count on the long edge nets a max
print area length of about 17” @ 240ppi which is as low as I’d want to go
for best detail on a landscape shot like that.


I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With this
image, just as a test:

It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels


So now two questions: (1) My image is 72 dpi/ppi, far short of 240 dpi/ppi.
What can I do with that, i.e., what’s the largest print I could get? (2) The
camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 25.
Is what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints with
this camera?



No, your image is 4032 x 2268 pixels.

72 dpi is the display resolution. Has nothing to do with printing.

Printed at 240 ppi, 4032 x 2268 pixels will give a print 16.8" x 9.45".

A good "printer" (i.e. service bureau like Bay Photo) can probably work with 200 
ppi to give you a print up to 20.16" x 11.34" which could be cropped to the 
20x10 print you wanted.


... although the guy in the back actually doing the printing is probably going 
to call you bad names. They much prefer at least 300 ppi.


But, when I was running the mini-lab I could get an "acceptable" result with as 
little as 150 ppi (C-type on Kodak Endura glossy paper).


--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.


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Re: Printing


> On Sep 5, 2019, at 1:09 AM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
> 
> Check prices, there may not be any reason other than convenience to use 
> Flickr rather than Bay directly.  Download the bay roes software and process 
> your photos specifically for printing. 

Thanks again, Larry. I did a superficial check of Bay. It seemed a little more 
complicated than going through Flickr. But as I say, based on a superficial 
comparison.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“This permanent doubt, the deep source of science.”

- Carlo Rovelli


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Re: Printing

2019-09-05 Thread John

When I was running the mini-lab, about the lowest I could go & still give the 
customer an acceptable print was 150 ppi/dpi.


And the customer's just didn't want to hear it.

"But it looks great on my phone/camera/fakebook/AOL ... Why can't you print it 
so it looks like that?"


On 9/4/2019 22:39:07, Doug Franklin wrote:
I haven't posted to the group in several years, but I've been following.  On 
this topic, maybe I have some information to offer.  I recently had reason to 
try the "Fracture" service that most of you (in North America, at least) have 
probably already seen advertised (https://fractureme.com).  I had reason 
recently to try them out. Unfortunately, the original I had to work with was 
less than optimal. The best I could do after cropping was about 6" x 8" at 100 
dpi.  I must say that I was impressed with what they were able to do with that.  
I'm not sure I could've done better with a local high quality photo printer on 
paper.  I'm looking forward to trying them again with a better (higher 
resolution) original.  I will admit that ICC profiles weren't an issue for that 
print (I didn't have them), but (a) the result was as color correct as I 
could've asked, lacking the profile and (b) it will be something I'm looking 
hard at on the next one.  But there will definitely be more.  From my limited 
test, 9/10, would buy again.


On 2019-09-04 16:40, Ken Waller wrote:

Eric, as I’ve posted here before, I’ve had very good results with Bay Photo.
They’ve done everything from 4 X 6 inch up to 2 X 3 feet prints on paper, 
canvas and metal for me and I have nothing but good things to say about them.
They will offer discounts (usually 20% off) from time to time when you get on 
their mail list. You use their software to upload your file and pick the 
numerous options available.


-Original Message-

From: Eric Weir 
Subject: Printing


I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With this 
image, just as a test: 
 
It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels


I’ve checked out printing services via this review: 
 
AdoramaPix and Nations Photo Lab appealed. But I see printing is now 
available via Flickr. Thought I’d give it a try.


Wondering about a 10 x 20 or 12 x 24 paper print, lustre finish. With an 
image this size, what do you think?


Also interested in comparison of Flickr to other printing services, e.g., 
AdoramaPix, Nations Photo Lab, or other.


Thanks,
-- 


Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"(I)t is important that awake people be awake... the darkness around us is 
deep."


- William Stafford









--
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Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: Printing


> On Sep 4, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> Can’t give you much advice on print services since I always do my own prints. 
> But be aware that that pixel count on the long edge nets a max print area 
> length of about 17” @ 240ppi which is as low as I’d want to go for best 
> detail on a landscape shot like that.
> 
>> I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With this 
>> image, just as a test: 
>> 
>>  It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels

So now two questions: (1) My image is 72 dpi/ppi, far short of 240 dpi/ppi. 
What can I do with that, i.e., what’s the largest print I could get? (2) The 
camera was my phone, an iPhone 6s. The 72 dpi/ppi result was with iso at 25. Is 
what I should expect? Will I ever be able to get good large prints with this 
camera?

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“This permanent doubt, the deep source of science.”

- Carlo Rovelli


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Re: Printing


> On Sep 4, 2019, at 10:39 PM, Doug Franklin  wrote:
> 
> I haven't posted to the group in several years, but I've been following.  On 
> this topic, maybe I have some information to offer.  I recently had reason to 
> try the "Fracture" service that most of you (in North America, at least) have 
> probably already seen advertised (https://fractureme.com).  I had reason 
> recently to try them out. Unfortunately, the original I had to work with was 
> less than optimal. The best I could do after cropping was about 6" x 8" at 
> 100 dpi.  I must say that I was impressed with what they were able to do with 
> that.  I'm not sure I could've done better with a local high quality photo 
> printer on paper.  I'm looking forward to trying them again with a better 
> (higher resolution) original.  I will admit that ICC profiles weren't an 
> issue for that print (I didn't have them), but (a) the result was as color 
> correct as I could've asked, lacking the profile and (b) it will be something 
> I'm looking hard at on the next one.  But there will definitely be more.  
> From my limited test, 9/10, would buy again.

Thanks, Doug. I checked it out. Seems they print only on glass and 
significantly costlier than other options. Or am I mistaken.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA

"Giving is an essence of existence….”

- David Whyte


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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread lrc

Check prices, there may not be any reason other than convenience to use Flickr 
rather than Bay directly.  Download the bay roes software and process your 
photos specifically for printing. 


On September 4, 2019 4:11:06 PM PDT, Eric Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
>> 
>> Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have
>traditionally gotten my prints done at Costco.
>
>Thanks to Larry and Ken for comments/suggestions regarding printing
>services. If Flickr uses Bay I think I’ll give them a try.
>
>--
>Eric Weir
>Decatur, GA  USA
>eew...@bellsouth.net
>
>"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
>men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 
>
>- Chief Seattle
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Doug Franklin

I haven't posted to the group in several years, but I've been following. 
 On this topic, maybe I have some information to offer.  I recently had 
reason to try the "Fracture" service that most of you (in North America, 
at least) have probably already seen advertised 
(https://fractureme.com).  I had reason recently to try them out. 
Unfortunately, the original I had to work with was less than optimal. 
The best I could do after cropping was about 6" x 8" at 100 dpi.  I must 
say that I was impressed with what they were able to do with that.  I'm 
not sure I could've done better with a local high quality photo printer 
on paper.  I'm looking forward to trying them again with a better 
(higher resolution) original.  I will admit that ICC profiles weren't an 
issue for that print (I didn't have them), but (a) the result was as 
color correct as I could've asked, lacking the profile and (b) it will 
be something I'm looking hard at on the next one.  But there will 
definitely be more.  From my limited test, 9/10, would buy again.


On 2019-09-04 16:40, Ken Waller wrote:

Eric, as I’ve posted here before, I’ve had very good results with Bay Photo.
They’ve done everything from 4 X 6 inch up to 2 X 3 feet prints on paper, 
canvas and metal for me and I have nothing but good things to say about them.
They will offer discounts (usually 20% off) from time to time when you get on 
their mail list. You use their software to upload your file and pick the 
numerous options available.

-Original Message-

From: Eric Weir 
Subject: Printing


I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With this image, just 
as a test: 

 It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels

I’ve checked out printing services via this review: 
 
AdoramaPix and Nations Photo Lab appealed. But I see printing is now available via 
Flickr. Thought I’d give it a try.

Wondering about a 10 x 20 or 12 x 24 paper print, lustre finish. With an image 
this size, what do you think?

Also interested in comparison of Flickr to other printing services, e.g., 
AdoramaPix, Nations Photo Lab, or other.

Thanks,
--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"(I)t is important that awake people be awake... the darkness around us is 
deep."

- William Stafford






--
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing
http://NutDriver.org
Facebook: NutDriver Racing
Sponsored by Murphy


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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread John

Generally, "72 dpi" is screen resolution. You don't want to print at "72 dpi" 
because it will look like crap.


At the 240ppi Godfrey mentioned 4032 x 2268 pixels gives you 16.8 x 9.45 inches.

To get a 20" wide print, 4032 pixels is going to give you around "201 ppi", 
suggesting a crop to 2016 pixels high (for a 10 x 20 print).


A good "printer" should be able to give you an adequate 10x20 C-Type print if 
the JPEG quality is high enough (2.5MB file size suggests it might be just 
barely), although you're going to have to crop it to get that aspect ratio.



On 9/4/2019 19:35:21, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:




On Sep 4, 2019, at 4:20 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:

Thanks, Godfrey. Guess I’ll adjust the size of the test print downward.

WIAI, I take it “ppi" is "pixels per inch.” Data on this image as displayed
in Dropbox indicates 72 “dots per inch.” is that the same as "pixels per
inch”?


Yes.. in this context, ppi and dpi mean the same thing.  It’s a long running
confusion.



This image was shot with an iPhone 6s using the default camera app, which
saves JPG files. If I we shooting RAW with the same camera would I be able
to do larger prints?


Raw files would net more editability but no more pixels, so no.

G




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Religion - Answers we must never question.



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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Godfrey DiGiorgi



> On Sep 4, 2019, at 4:20 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Godfrey. Guess I’ll adjust the size of the test print downward.
> 
> WIAI, I take it “ppi" is "pixels per inch.” Data on this image as displayed 
> in Dropbox indicates 72 “dots per inch.” is that the same as "pixels per 
> inch”?

Yes.. in this context, ppi and dpi mean the same thing.  It’s a long running 
confusion. 

> 
> This image was shot with an iPhone 6s using the default camera app, which 
> saves JPG files. If I we shooting RAW with the same camera would I be able to 
> do larger prints?

Raw files would net more editability but no more pixels, so no. 

G

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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Eric Weir

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> Can’t give you much advice on print services since I always do my own prints. 
> But be aware that that pixel count on the long edge nets a max print area 
> length of about 17” @ 240ppi which is as low as I’d want to go for best 
> detail on a landscape shot like that. 

Thanks, Godfrey. Guess I’ll adjust the size of the test print downward.

WIAI, I take it “ppi" is "pixels per inch.” Data on this image as displayed in 
Dropbox indicates 72 “dots per inch.” is that the same as "pixels per inch”?

This image was shot with an iPhone 6s using the default camera app, which saves 
JPG files. If I we shooting RAW with the same camera would I be able to do 
larger prints?

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 

- Chief Seattle

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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Eric Weir

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
> 
> Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
> gotten my prints done at Costco.

Thanks to Larry and Ken for comments/suggestions regarding printing services. 
If Flickr uses Bay I think I’ll give them a try.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 

- Chief Seattle

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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Godfrey DiGiorgi

Can’t give you much advice on print services since I always do my own prints. 
But be aware that that pixel count on the long edge nets a max print area 
length of about 17” @ 240ppi which is as low as I’d want to go for best detail 
on a landscape shot like that. 

G

> 
> I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With this 
> image, just as a test: 
> 
>  It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels


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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Ken Waller

Eric, as I’ve posted here before, I’ve had very good results with Bay Photo.
They’ve done everything from 4 X 6 inch up to 2 X 3 feet prints on paper, 
canvas and metal for me and I have nothing but good things to say about them. 
They will offer discounts (usually 20% off) from time to time when you get on 
their mail list. You use their software to upload your file and pick the 
numerous options available.

-Original Message-
>From: Eric Weir 
>Subject: Printing
>
>
>I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With this 
>image, just as a test: 
>
> It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels
>
>I’ve checked out printing services via this review: 
> 
>AdoramaPix and Nations Photo Lab appealed. But I see printing is now available 
>via Flickr. Thought I’d give it a try. 
>
>Wondering about a 10 x 20 or 12 x 24 paper print, lustre finish. With an image 
>this size, what do you think?
>
>Also interested in comparison of Flickr to other printing services, e.g., 
>AdoramaPix, Nations Photo Lab, or other.  
>
>Thanks,
>--
>Eric Weir
>Decatur, GA  USA
>eew...@bellsouth.net 
>
>"(I)t is important that awake people be awake... the darkness around us is 
>deep."
>
>- William Stafford


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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Paul Stenquist

Costco. Damn autocorrect.

Paul

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:34 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
> Cost is good if you embed the icc profile for your store
> 
> Paul
> 
>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
>> 
>> Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
>> gotten my prints done at Costco.
>> 
>>> On September 4, 2019 10:48:48 AM PDT, Eric Weir  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With
>>> this image, just as a test:
>>> 
>>> It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels
>>> 
>>> I’ve checked out printing services via this review:
>>> 
>>> AdoramaPix and Nations Photo Lab appealed. But I see printing is now
>>> available via Flickr. Thought I’d give it a try. 
>>> 
>>> Wondering about a 10 x 20 or 12 x 24 paper print, lustre finish. With
>>> an image this size, what do you think?
>>> 
>>> Also interested in comparison of Flickr to other printing services,
>>> e.g., AdoramaPix, Nations Photo Lab, or other.  
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> --
>>> Eric Weir
>>> Decatur, GA  USA
>>> eew...@bellsouth.net 
>>> 
>>> "(I)t is important that awake people be awake... the darkness around us
>>> is deep."
>>> 
>>> - William Stafford
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
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>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>>> follow the directions.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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> 
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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread Paul Stenquist

Cost is good if you embed the icc profile for your store

Paul

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:54 PM, l...@red4est.com wrote:
> 
> Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
> gotten my prints done at Costco.
> 
>> On September 4, 2019 10:48:48 AM PDT, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With
>> this image, just as a test:
>> 
>> It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels
>> 
>> I’ve checked out printing services via this review:
>> 
>> AdoramaPix and Nations Photo Lab appealed. But I see printing is now
>> available via Flickr. Thought I’d give it a try. 
>> 
>> Wondering about a 10 x 20 or 12 x 24 paper print, lustre finish. With
>> an image this size, what do you think?
>> 
>> Also interested in comparison of Flickr to other printing services,
>> e.g., AdoramaPix, Nations Photo Lab, or other.  
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Eric Weir
>> Decatur, GA  USA
>> eew...@bellsouth.net 
>> 
>> "(I)t is important that awake people be awake... the darkness around us
>> is deep."
>> 
>> - William Stafford
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>> follow the directions.
> 
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Re: Printing

2019-09-04 Thread lrc

Flickr uses Bay as one of them and Bay is very good.  I have traditionally 
gotten my prints done at Costco.

On September 4, 2019 10:48:48 AM PDT, Eric Weir  wrote:
>
>I have never printed a single photo. I'd like to give it a try. With
>this image, just as a test:
>
>It’s 2.5 MB, 4032 x 2268 pixels
>
>I’ve checked out printing services via this review:
>
>AdoramaPix and Nations Photo Lab appealed. But I see printing is now
>available via Flickr. Thought I’d give it a try. 
>
>Wondering about a 10 x 20 or 12 x 24 paper print, lustre finish. With
>an image this size, what do you think?
>
>Also interested in comparison of Flickr to other printing services,
>e.g., AdoramaPix, Nations Photo Lab, or other.  
>
>Thanks,
>--
>Eric Weir
>Decatur, GA  USA
>eew...@bellsouth.net 
>
>"(I)t is important that awake people be awake... the darkness around us
>is deep."
>
>- William Stafford
>
>
>-- 
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Re: Printing question

2018-05-05 Thread Bob W-PDML

On 5 May 2018, at 20:47, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Mark C  wrote:
>> 
>> Relative colorimetirc maps out of gamut colors to the nearest in gamut color 
>> in the desintation color space. Perceptual maps out of gamut colors into the 
>> destination color space and also shifts other colors to preserve the 
>> relative differences between them. Relative Colorimetiric could result in 
>> blocked up colors or a loss of color separation,  but it preserves the 
>> accuracy of in gamut colors. With Perceptual Colorimetric colors retain 
>> their relation with each other and avoid getting blocked up, but there can a 
>> loss of color accuracy throughout the image.
>> 
>> A photo of vibrant flowers might look blocked up printed with relative 
>> colorimetric, but a photo of a person holding the flowers might have weird 
>> skin tones with perceptual.
>> 
>> In the tests I did I didn't see much difference between relative and 
>> perceptual with Epson K3 inks and glossy or luster paper. I saw slight 
>> differences with Epson enhanced matte paper and preferred perceptual. I 
>> assume the photo papers and PK inks have a broader gamut than the matte 
>> paper and MK ink.
>> 
> 
> If Mark selected his quotations based on usefulness rather than amusement 
> value, this post would be close to the top of the list.
> 

I thought it was hilarious.


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Re: Printing question

2018-05-05 Thread Larry Colen


> On May 5, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Mark C  wrote:
> 
> Relative colorimetirc maps out of gamut colors to the nearest in gamut color 
> in the desintation color space. Perceptual maps out of gamut colors into the 
> destination color space and also shifts other colors to preserve the relative 
> differences between them. Relative Colorimetiric could result in blocked up 
> colors or a loss of color separation,  but it preserves the accuracy of in 
> gamut colors. With Perceptual Colorimetric colors retain their relation with 
> each other and avoid getting blocked up, but there can a loss of color 
> accuracy throughout the image.
> 
> A photo of vibrant flowers might look blocked up printed with relative 
> colorimetric, but a photo of a person holding the flowers might have weird 
> skin tones with perceptual.
> 
> In the tests I did I didn't see much difference between relative and 
> perceptual with Epson K3 inks and glossy or luster paper. I saw slight 
> differences with Epson enhanced matte paper and preferred perceptual. I 
> assume the photo papers and PK inks have a broader gamut than the matte paper 
> and MK ink.
> 

If Mark selected his quotations based on usefulness rather than amusement 
value, this post would be close to the top of the list.

--
Larry Colen
l...@red4est.com




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Re: Printing question

2018-05-05 Thread Paul Stenquist

Thanks for the clear explanation, Mark! I tried printing the same file twice in 
Relative Colorimetric. Once with Black Point Compensation on and once with it 
off. Hard to see a difference, but with it turned on the print seemed to pick 
up a bit more contrast. I’m leaving it on for now.
Paul

> On May 5, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Mark C  wrote:
> 
> Relative colorimetirc maps out of gamut colors to the nearest in gamut color 
> in the desintation color space. Perceptual maps out of gamut colors into the 
> destination color space and also shifts other colors to preserve the relative 
> differences between them. Relative Colorimetiric could result in blocked up 
> colors or a loss of color separation,  but it preserves the accuracy of in 
> gamut colors. With Perceptual Colorimetric colors retain their relation with 
> each other and avoid getting blocked up, but there can a loss of color 
> accuracy throughout the image.
> 
> A photo of vibrant flowers might look blocked up printed with relative 
> colorimetric, but a photo of a person holding the flowers might have weird 
> skin tones with perceptual.
> 
> In the tests I did I didn't see much difference between relative and 
> perceptual with Epson K3 inks and glossy or luster paper. I saw slight 
> differences with Epson enhanced matte paper and preferred perceptual. I 
> assume the photo papers and PK inks have a broader gamut than the matte paper 
> and MK ink.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> I use Relative Colorimetric without black point compensation. Haven’t really 
>> thought about it for years. My prints are nice. I don’t know if they could 
>> be better. I print on Epson Premium Luster or Exhibition Fiber and use the 
>> ICC profiles. Perhaps I should experiment with other settings?
>> Paul
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2018, at 10:28 AM, Mark C  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Paul Sorenson wrote:
 Kind of looking for a consensus...when printing using ICC profiles what is 
 your preferred rendering intent?  Perceptual or relative colorimetric?  
 Does your choice vary by paper surface?
 
 -p
 
>>> I start with perceptual with black point compensation enabled. I don't 
>>> change the setting for different papers, but that's something a moot point 
>>> since I very rarely use anything but glossy or luster papers.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> ---
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>> 
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Re: Printing question

2018-05-05 Thread Mark C

Relative colorimetirc maps out of gamut colors to the nearest in gamut 
color in the desintation color space. Perceptual maps out of gamut 
colors into the destination color space and also shifts other colors to 
preserve the relative differences between them. Relative Colorimetiric 
could result in blocked up colors or a loss of color separation,  but it 
preserves the accuracy of in gamut colors. With Perceptual Colorimetric 
colors retain their relation with each other and avoid getting blocked 
up, but there can a loss of color accuracy throughout the image.


A photo of vibrant flowers might look blocked up printed with relative 
colorimetric, but a photo of a person holding the flowers might have 
weird skin tones with perceptual.


In the tests I did I didn't see much difference between relative and 
perceptual with Epson K3 inks and glossy or luster paper. I saw slight 
differences with Epson enhanced matte paper and preferred perceptual. I 
assume the photo papers and PK inks have a broader gamut than the matte 
paper and MK ink.


Mark



Paul Stenquist wrote:

I use Relative Colorimetric without black point compensation. Haven’t really 
thought about it for years. My prints are nice. I don’t know if they could be 
better. I print on Epson Premium Luster or Exhibition Fiber and use the ICC 
profiles. Perhaps I should experiment with other settings?
Paul


On May 5, 2018, at 10:28 AM, Mark C  wrote:

Paul Sorenson wrote:

Kind of looking for a consensus...when printing using ICC profiles what is your 
preferred rendering intent?  Perceptual or relative colorimetric?  Does your 
choice vary by paper surface?

-p


I start with perceptual with black point compensation enabled. I don't change 
the setting for different papers, but that's something a moot point since I 
very rarely use anything but glossy or luster papers.

Mark

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Re: Printing question

2018-05-05 Thread Paul Stenquist

I use Relative Colorimetric without black point compensation. Haven’t really 
thought about it for years. My prints are nice. I don’t know if they could be 
better. I print on Epson Premium Luster or Exhibition Fiber and use the ICC 
profiles. Perhaps I should experiment with other settings?
Paul

> On May 5, 2018, at 10:28 AM, Mark C  wrote:
> 
> Paul Sorenson wrote:
>> Kind of looking for a consensus...when printing using ICC profiles what is 
>> your preferred rendering intent?  Perceptual or relative colorimetric?  Does 
>> your choice vary by paper surface?
>> 
>> -p
>> 
> I start with perceptual with black point compensation enabled. I don't change 
> the setting for different papers, but that's something a moot point since I 
> very rarely use anything but glossy or luster papers.
> 
> Mark
> 
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Re: Printing question

2018-05-05 Thread Mark C


Paul Sorenson wrote:
Kind of looking for a consensus...when printing using ICC profiles 
what is your preferred rendering intent?  Perceptual or relative 
colorimetric?  Does your choice vary by paper surface?


-p

I start with perceptual with black point compensation enabled. I don't 
change the setting for different papers, but that's something a moot 
point since I very rarely use anything but glossy or luster papers.


Mark

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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-29 Thread John


You can still get Duratrans or Endura Transparancy prints. A 16x20 runs about 
$50 plus whatever back-light system you choose.

On 9/29/2017 10:34, P. J. Alling wrote:

I haven't read the claims in the posts you linked yet, but, this really puts me 
in mind of, is when we could print on clear Cibachrome materials.  You display 
these prints back lighted and a well done print, with the proper subject 
matter, was like looking at a giant color slide on a giant light table.  It's 
like looking at a 4x5 Kodachrome, except the image source was originally 35mm 
or medium format.  The quality could be amazing.

The reflection problem wasn't the reason for the material, and there are anti 
reflection glass options for framing which I think would be a better than 
actually printing on the back of the glass, for traditional display, and 
printing on the front of the glass won't protect the image.


On 9/28/2017 1:14 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote:



I am surprised, but it is only today that I've come across this printing 
option: printing directly on glass by FractureME.com
(I am sure at least some other PDMLers have known this option for ages.)
So, I became curious about it.

There are some hyped-up articles about it that only look at the surface, not at 
any detail of this option, such as quality, etc.
But I found this blog with a balanced-sounding review of various aspects of the 
service and the product:
http://www.konraddwojak.com/blog/2014/4/fracture-glass-prints-review
It is 3-year old now, and the situation could be different now (better or 
worse), but it sheds light on what could be a problem.

In addition to that, - when I watched the video ad - right on the
first page of  https://fractureme.com/  (It's almost the same video that I saw 
this morning on TV), I noticed quite a few annoying reflections from
the glass. I am guessing that those were probably exacerbated by the lights 
used for shooting, but it got me thinking about this question:
If we compare these prints directly on the glass surface to a print mounted 
behind a glass, does the fact that the image is right on the glass surface 
improve the reflection problem, make it worse, or does not affect it much?

Yet another question I have is about the width of the color gamut and
color accuracy provided by this company.

If someone on this list has tried this type of prints, - I'd be curious to hear 
your impression.

Also, - have you seen or tried any other services doing the same type of 
printing?
(I googled and found a few, e.g. 
http://www.grayglass.net/glass.cfm/Architectural/Digital-Printing/catid/1/conid/221
http://photography.com/product-glass.html )

Thank you,

Igor







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Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-29 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

in the case of my painting on glass, the painting was done on the back side
of the glass.


Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Igor PDML-StR  wrote:

>
> John,
>
> If I understood you correctly, you are assuming the photo is printed on
> the front surface of the glass. My understanding is that it is printed on
> the back surface of the glass. So, in principle, you have the same number
> of surfaces to reflect from, as in case of a photo behind the glass.
>
> (The glass is providing important protection from UV, which reduces fading
> of colors. I suspect, it is the same in case of the dyes on glass.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Igor
>
>
>  John Francis Thu, 28 Sep 2017 10:53:25 -0700 wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 01:14:34PM -0400, Igor PDML-StR wrote:
>
>>
>> If we compare these prints directly on the glass surface to a print
>> mounted
>> behind a glass, does the fact that the image is right on the glass surface
>> improve the reflection problem, make it worse, or does not affect it much?
>>
>
>
> It will almost certainly improve the reflection problem.
>
> The glass isn't put in front of prints to enhance the appearance of the
> print; it's put there to protect the surface of the print from scratches,
> etc., and to provide a surface that's easier to clean.
>
> Eliminating the extra reflections from the glass before the illumination
> has even got to the surface of the print has to be an improvement.
>
>
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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-29 Thread John Francis

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 02:12:41PM -0400, Igor PDML-StR wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> If I understood you correctly, you are assuming the photo is printed on the
> front surface of the glass. My understanding is that it is printed on the
> back surface of the glass. So, in principle, you have the same number of
> surfaces to reflect from, as in case of a photo behind the glass.

While you may have the same number of glass surfaces on a rear-printed image,
they are different.  The reflections from a glass-air boundary are likely
to be significantly stronger than reflections from a glass-ink boundary.

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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-29 Thread Igor PDML-StR



John,

If I understood you correctly, you are assuming the photo is printed on 
the front surface of the glass. My understanding is that it is printed on 
the back surface of the glass. So, in principle, you have the same number 
of surfaces to reflect from, as in case of a photo behind the glass.


(The glass is providing important protection from UV, which reduces fading 
of colors. I suspect, it is the same in case of the dyes on glass.)


Cheers,

Igor


 John Francis Thu, 28 Sep 2017 10:53:25 -0700 wrote:

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 01:14:34PM -0400, Igor PDML-StR wrote:


If we compare these prints directly on the glass surface to a print mounted
behind a glass, does the fact that the image is right on the glass surface
improve the reflection problem, make it worse, or does not affect it much?



It will almost certainly improve the reflection problem.

The glass isn't put in front of prints to enhance the appearance of the 
print; it's put there to protect the surface of the print from scratches, 
etc., and to provide a surface that's easier to clean.


Eliminating the extra reflections from the glass before the illumination 
has even got to the surface of the print has to be an improvement.



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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-29 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

I have never had a photo printed on glass, but someone did a painting of my
airplane on glass, and it was a very effective presentation.

Dan

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 10:34 AM, P. J. Alling 
wrote:

> I haven't read the claims in the posts you linked yet, but, this really
> puts me in mind of, is when we could print on clear Cibachrome materials.
> You display these prints back lighted and a well done print, with the
> proper subject matter, was like looking at a giant color slide on a giant
> light table.  It's like looking at a 4x5 Kodachrome, except the image
> source was originally 35mm or medium format.  The quality could be amazing.
>
> The reflection problem wasn't the reason for the material, and there are
> anti reflection glass options for framing which I think would be a better
> than actually printing on the back of the glass, for traditional display,
> and printing on the front of the glass won't protect the image.
>
>
> On 9/28/2017 1:14 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I am surprised, but it is only today that I've come across this printing
>> option: printing directly on glass by FractureME.com
>> (I am sure at least some other PDMLers have known this option for ages.)
>> So, I became curious about it.
>>
>> There are some hyped-up articles about it that only look at the surface,
>> not at any detail of this option, such as quality, etc.
>> But I found this blog with a balanced-sounding review of various aspects
>> of the service and the product:
>> http://www.konraddwojak.com/blog/2014/4/fracture-glass-prints-review
>> It is 3-year old now, and the situation could be different now (better or
>> worse), but it sheds light on what could be a problem.
>>
>> In addition to that, - when I watched the video ad - right on the
>> first page of  https://fractureme.com/  (It's almost the same video that
>> I saw this morning on TV), I noticed quite a few annoying reflections from
>> the glass. I am guessing that those were probably exacerbated by the
>> lights used for shooting, but it got me thinking about this question:
>> If we compare these prints directly on the glass surface to a print
>> mounted behind a glass, does the fact that the image is right on the glass
>> surface improve the reflection problem, make it worse, or does not affect
>> it much?
>>
>> Yet another question I have is about the width of the color gamut and
>> color accuracy provided by this company.
>>
>> If someone on this list has tried this type of prints, - I'd be curious
>> to hear your impression.
>>
>> Also, - have you seen or tried any other services doing the same type of
>> printing?
>> (I googled and found a few, e.g. http://www.grayglass.net/glass
>> .cfm/Architectural/Digital-Printing/catid/1/conid/221
>> http://photography.com/product-glass.html )
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Igor
>>
>>
>>
> --
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> America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please.
> - P.J. O'Rourke
>
>
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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-29 Thread P. J. Alling

I haven't read the claims in the posts you linked yet, but, this really 
puts me in mind of, is when we could print on clear Cibachrome 
materials.  You display these prints back lighted and a well done print, 
with the proper subject matter, was like looking at a giant color slide 
on a giant light table.  It's like looking at a 4x5 Kodachrome, except 
the image source was originally 35mm or medium format.  The quality 
could be amazing.


The reflection problem wasn't the reason for the material, and there are 
anti reflection glass options for framing which I think would be a 
better than actually printing on the back of the glass, for traditional 
display, and printing on the front of the glass won't protect the image.



On 9/28/2017 1:14 PM, Igor PDML-StR wrote:



I am surprised, but it is only today that I've come across this 
printing option: printing directly on glass by FractureME.com

(I am sure at least some other PDMLers have known this option for ages.)
So, I became curious about it.

There are some hyped-up articles about it that only look at the 
surface, not at any detail of this option, such as quality, etc.
But I found this blog with a balanced-sounding review of various 
aspects of the service and the product:

http://www.konraddwojak.com/blog/2014/4/fracture-glass-prints-review
It is 3-year old now, and the situation could be different now (better 
or worse), but it sheds light on what could be a problem.


In addition to that, - when I watched the video ad - right on the
first page of  https://fractureme.com/  (It's almost the same video 
that I saw this morning on TV), I noticed quite a few annoying 
reflections from
the glass. I am guessing that those were probably exacerbated by the 
lights used for shooting, but it got me thinking about this question:
If we compare these prints directly on the glass surface to a print 
mounted behind a glass, does the fact that the image is right on the 
glass surface improve the reflection problem, make it worse, or does 
not affect it much?


Yet another question I have is about the width of the color gamut and
color accuracy provided by this company.

If someone on this list has tried this type of prints, - I'd be 
curious to hear your impression.


Also, - have you seen or tried any other services doing the same type 
of printing?
(I googled and found a few, e.g. 
http://www.grayglass.net/glass.cfm/Architectural/Digital-Printing/catid/1/conid/221

http://photography.com/product-glass.html )

Thank you,

Igor




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America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please.
- P.J. O'Rourke


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Re: Printing on glass -- Fracture

2017-09-28 Thread John Francis

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 01:14:34PM -0400, Igor PDML-StR wrote:
> 
> If we compare these prints directly on the glass surface to a print mounted
> behind a glass, does the fact that the image is right on the glass surface
> improve the reflection problem, make it worse, or does not affect it much?

It will almost certainly improve the reflection problem.

The glass isn't put in front of prints to enhance the appearance of the print;
it's put there to protect the surface of the print from scratches, etc., and
to provide a surface that's easier to clean.

Eliminating the extra reflections from the glass before the illumination has
even got to the surface of the print has to be an improvement.

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Re: Printing problem _ I need you geniuses !

2015-12-22 Thread P.J. Alling

Does it allow a custom setting? Several of my past HP printers allowed 
custom setting with max dimension, of 44", one IIRC had a custom setting 
allowing an effectively unlimited length, though there was no provision 
for roll paper, but they hid that pretty thoroughly.  I haven't used an 
Epson printer in quite some time so I can't help more than that.


On 12/21/2015 11:49 PM, ann sanfedele wrote:
So I accidentally got my R220 to print an 8 1/2" x 19" last night- but 
have not been able to replicate it.  I'm printing from

a file that measures just that.. (this one) at 300 dpi

https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-hJV3mnS/A 



I'm printing from Elements 10.  The R220 only has a narrow carriage (8 
1/2")  - I don't know whether it is going wrong

because of the printer or the elements settings...

any ideas? I can't at this point remember all the variations of things 
i tried to get this pano to print to the full size.  it kept
either cropping it or keeping proportions and reducing the size so 
that it would print on a letter sized sheet...


here is that file:
https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-L36BNsN/A 



I got nothin' - can anyone help?

Thanks -

ann









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I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve 
immortality through not dying.
-- Woody Allen


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Re: Printing problem _ I need you geniuses !

2015-12-22 Thread ann sanfedele

Thanks for input P. J.   - Paul Sorensens helped - thought it was to do 
with Elements 10 but we eliminated that quickly..
the R220 does have a user defined section... but the way it is set up 
was confusing... once I discovered that I had to click
on it in an area I would not have thought about clicking I got to the 
definition place for the printer settings.  So now I'm
all set to peddle the one pagers on ebay... and make other odd shaped 
prints.  waste not, want not


ann

On 12/22/2015 1:31 PM, P.J. Alling wrote:
Does it allow a custom setting? Several of my past HP printers allowed 
custom setting with max dimension, of 44", one IIRC had a custom 
setting allowing an effectively unlimited length, though there was no 
provision for roll paper, but they hid that pretty thoroughly. I 
haven't used an Epson printer in quite some time so I can't help more 
than that.


On 12/21/2015 11:49 PM, ann sanfedele wrote:
So I accidentally got my R220 to print an 8 1/2" x 19" last night- 
but have not been able to replicate it.  I'm printing from

a file that measures just that.. (this one) at 300 dpi

https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-hJV3mnS/A 



I'm printing from Elements 10.  The R220 only has a narrow carriage 
(8 1/2")  - I don't know whether it is going wrong

because of the printer or the elements settings...

any ideas? I can't at this point remember all the variations of 
things i tried to get this pano to print to the full size.  it kept
either cropping it or keeping proportions and reducing the size so 
that it would print on a letter sized sheet...


here is that file:
https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-L36BNsN/A 



I got nothin' - can anyone help?

Thanks -

ann












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Re: Printing problem _ I need you geniuses !

2015-12-22 Thread ann sanfedele


thanks, Paul - I will

:-)

ann



On 12/22/2015 12:56 AM, Paul wrote:

Ann -

I still have a copy of PSE10 on my machine.  If you would e-mail me a 
copy of the full rez image file, I'll take a look at it in the morning.


-p

On 12/21/2015 10:49 PM, ann sanfedele wrote:

So I accidentally got my R220 to print an 8 1/2" x 19" last night- but
have not been able to replicate it.  I'm printing from
a file that measures just that.. (this one) at 300 dpi

https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-hJV3mnS/A 




I'm printing from Elements 10.  The R220 only has a narrow carriage (8
1/2")  - I don't know whether it is going wrong
because of the printer or the elements settings...

any ideas? I can't at this point remember all the variations of things i
tried to get this pano to print to the full size.  it kept
either cropping it or keeping proportions and reducing the size so that
it would print on a letter sized sheet...

here is that file:
https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-L36BNsN/A 




I got nothin' - can anyone help?

Thanks -

ann











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Re: Printing problem _ I need you geniuses !

2015-12-22 Thread P.J. Alling


I just checked the Canon pixma ix6520 it allows a 91"x2 1/2" custom print.

On 12/21/2015 11:49 PM, ann sanfedele wrote:
So I accidentally got my R220 to print an 8 1/2" x 19" last night- but 
have not been able to replicate it.  I'm printing from

a file that measures just that.. (this one) at 300 dpi

https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-hJV3mnS/A 



I'm printing from Elements 10.  The R220 only has a narrow carriage (8 
1/2")  - I don't know whether it is going wrong

because of the printer or the elements settings...

any ideas? I can't at this point remember all the variations of things 
i tried to get this pano to print to the full size.  it kept
either cropping it or keeping proportions and reducing the size so 
that it would print on a letter sized sheet...


here is that file:
https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-L36BNsN/A 



I got nothin' - can anyone help?

Thanks -

ann









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immortality through not dying.
-- Woody Allen


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Re: Printing problem _ I need you geniuses !

2015-12-21 Thread Paul


Ann -

I still have a copy of PSE10 on my machine.  If you would e-mail me a 
copy of the full rez image file, I'll take a look at it in the morning.


-p

On 12/21/2015 10:49 PM, ann sanfedele wrote:

So I accidentally got my R220 to print an 8 1/2" x 19" last night- but
have not been able to replicate it.  I'm printing from
a file that measures just that.. (this one) at 300 dpi

https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-hJV3mnS/A


I'm printing from Elements 10.  The R220 only has a narrow carriage (8
1/2")  - I don't know whether it is going wrong
because of the printer or the elements settings...

any ideas? I can't at this point remember all the variations of things i
tried to get this pano to print to the full size.  it kept
either cropping it or keeping proportions and reducing the size so that
it would print on a letter sized sheet...

here is that file:
https://annsan.smugmug.com/On-the-Road-or-On-Foot/Random-stuff/n-9xmXn/i-L36BNsN/A


I got nothin' - can anyone help?

Thanks -

ann








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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Collin Brendemuehl

I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment.

One could always resort to film.


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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Mark Roberts

Collin Brendemuehl wrote:

I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment.

One could always resort to film.

I've spent lots of time in darkrooms. Shooting film does nothing to
stop you wasting paper!
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography  Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Collin Brendemuehl

I've spent lots of time in darkrooms. Shooting film does nothing to
stop you wasting paper!

No, but it does deal with *some* of the pretense of digital being
better/faster.
Good printing in both digital and chemical work takes effort.
(And I'm still waiting for a digital print that can stand up beside an 8x10
contact.)
Digital did at least solve half of the problem in photography -- the normal
softening that comes through the enlarging process.
But when the data is not there, it's just not there.


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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Jack Davis

Inkjet printing of scans would still require photo paper. ;-)
 
Jack


- Original Message -
From: Collin Brendemuehl coll...@brendemuehl.net
To: pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment.

One could always resort to film.


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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Jack Davis

I'd rather not tote an 8x10 field camera in a wheel borrow, but I agree.

Jack

- Original Message -
From: Collin Brendemuehl coll...@brendemuehl.net
To: pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Printing BW 

I've spent lots of time in darkrooms. Shooting film does nothing to
stop you wasting paper!

No, but it does deal with *some* of the pretense of digital being
better/faster.
Good printing in both digital and chemical work takes effort.
(And I'm still waiting for a digital print that can stand up beside an 8x10
contact.)
Digital did at least solve half of the problem in photography -- the normal
softening that comes through the enlarging process.
But when the data is not there, it's just not there.

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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Steve Cottrell

On 2/4/13, Mark C, discombobulated, unleashed:

Paul and Bill and others are right to note that you have to disable 
printer management of the color and then let PS Elements manage it. 
Otherwise you could get double profiling - PS Elements outputs the print 
profiled to the paper and then the printer re-profiles that and things 
go wonky...

What about Colorsync on Mac systems? I thought it was better to let
Colorsync handle everything?

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__Broadcast, Corporate,
||  (O)  |Web Video Producion
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_



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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread John Sessoms


From: Mark Roberts

Collin Brendemuehl wrote:


I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment.


One could always resort to film.


I've spent lots of time in darkrooms. Shooting film does nothing to
stop you wasting paper!


Say what you will, I've never had any color management problems in a BW
darkroom.

BW prints came out BW, not cyan or magenta.

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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-03 Thread Matthew Hunt

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:27 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote:

 Say what you will, I've never had any color management problems in a BW
 darkroom.

 BW prints came out BW, not cyan or magenta.

I most often printed on Ilford Multigrade IV RC, and for me it tended
to have a greenish tone unless I toned in selenium (which shifted it
to a cold purple-blue that I liked better). When I wanted a warmer
tone, I used an Agfa paper. Not sure I ever had a combination that I'd
consider truly neutral.

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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-02 Thread Derby Chang

Hi Jack

Others have been giving you good advice. Don't guess, you need to
calibrate a printer profile, or at least use one of the canned profiles.

One other thing I've found, print and print often. My R1800 doesn't do
too badly at BW, but leave it for a week or two, a few nozzles get
clogged, and it throws my custom profiles way off, which is especially
noticeable on BW. I was recently offered a R2400, which would do BW
much more elegantly, but I had to turn it down, as much as I would like
two printers. Couldn't justify the throughput.

On 2/04/2013 8:39 AM, Jack Davis wrote:

I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having
sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours.
Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, toilet
and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me doubt
myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO R1800
(remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering images.
I've given control to the printer and then turned down the available colors (only
includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 25. Get a grape blue. If I select no
color control or photoshop elements manages color it's a shade of magenta.
I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color
hasn't been a problem.
I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, always to get a
BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I need a print larger than
13x 19.
I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but I'd
likely not be around long enough to use it up.
If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may
help, please pass them along.

Thanks!

Jack

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Re: Printing BW

Appreciated, Ann. I also save in Gray Scale.  
A calibration thing I suppose.(?) Am using Epson Ultra Premium Luster.
I may ask my wife if I'm allowed to buy a BW dedicated EPSON R3000. :-(

Jack

- Original Message -
From: Ann Sanfedele ann...@nyc.rr.com
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

When I do Black and white on the Epson v500 I have made a file that is 
in _saved in grayscale_... seems to me that problems with color cast 
I've had were a combination of the type of paper I was printing on and 
the profile.

get absolutely black and white prints if I print on epson matte paper.
I think I did pretty well with the high gloss Ilford that is akin to the
nice metallic paper

hi guys :-)

ann - just hopped in for a few mins

On 4/1/2013 21:28, Jack Davis wrote:
 Thanks again, Paul.

 Jack

 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 4:51 PM
 Subject: Re: Printing BW

 I used to be able to get decent BW prints with an Epson 1200, which doesn't 
 have multiple blacks. It's much easier with one of the newer multi-black 
 printers like the 3000 or the 2880, but you should be able to get acceptable 
 BW results with the 1800.

 You don't need or want access to the color controls in the printing 
 program.Turn off all color controls and adjust color in PhotoShop. Select 
 let photoshop control colors in your printing setup box. Use the Epson icc 
 profile for the premium luster paper. It's very accurate. Render your photo 
 as a grayscale image in PhotoShop, then convert it to whatever your PhotoShop 
 color space is set to. Prophoto RGB or Adobe 98 RGB for example.  If your 
 monitor calibration is accurate, the image in an RGB odor space should remain 
 BW with no color tint. Then print with photoshop controlling the color. You 
 may get a slight color case, but you should be pretty close to pure BW.
 On Apr 1, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Thanks, Paul. When I chose Photoshop controls color I no longer have 
 access to color controls in the printing program. I'm absolutely satisfied 
 that the image to be printed is BW.
 I have a pro editor acquaintance to question on such things and he says he 
 does two things when it comes to printing BW. 1) Clean printer heads. 2) 
 Turn off all color controls. This person is now retired and working out of 
 his home. I understand he makes house calls. I have his business card and am 
 about ready to give him a call.

 Thanks!

 Jack

 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:25 PM
 Subject: Re: Printing BW

 Good results are very difficult to achieve when the printer controls the 
 color. Change your setup to Photoshop controls color and turn off all 
 printer color control. You can find instructions for printing workflow 
 management on the web.

 Paul
 On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

             I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate 
having sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 
hours. Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with 
meals, toilet and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting 
places.
             I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
             The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
images.
             I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of 
minus 25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop 
elements manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. 
 Color hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when 
 I need a print larger than 13x 19.
             I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but 
I'd likely not be around long enough to use it up.
             If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that 
may help, please pass them along.

 Thanks!

 Jack

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Re: Printing BW

I don't seem to have received it, Paul. PLEASE re-send it. 
Thanks!

Jack

- Original Message -
From: Paul Sorenson pentax1...@gmail.com
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

Jack -

I sent you a long reply off list.  If you have any questions please let 
me know.

-p

On 4/1/2013 4:39 PM, Jack Davis wrote:
           I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, toilet 
and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
           I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
           The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
images.
           I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 
25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop elements 
manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
           I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but I'd 
likely not be around long enough to use it up.
           If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
help, please pass them along.

 Thanks!

 Jack

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Re: Printing BW

Thanks, Derby. Am using the profile offered by Epson for there Ultra Premium 
Luster.

Jack

- Original Message -
From: Derby Chang der...@iinet.net.au
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

Hi Jack

Others have been giving you good advice. Don't guess, you need to calibrate a 
printer profile, or at least use one of the canned profiles.

One other thing I've found, print and print often. My R1800 doesn't do too 
badly at BW, but leave it for a week or two, a few nozzles get clogged, and it 
throws my custom profiles way off, which is especially noticeable on BW. I was 
recently offered a R2400, which would do BW much more elegantly, but I had to 
turn it down, as much as I would like two printers. Couldn't justify the 
throughput.

On 2/04/2013 8:39 AM, Jack Davis wrote:
           I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, toilet 
and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
           I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
           The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
images.
           I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 
25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop elements 
manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
           I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but I'd 
likely not be around long enough to use it up.
           If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
help, please pass them along.

 Thanks!

 Jack

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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-02 Thread Mark C

Paul and Bill and others are right to note that you have to disable
printer management of the color and then let PS Elements manage it.
Otherwise you could get double profiling - PS Elements outputs the print
profiled to the paper and then the printer re-profiles that and things
go wonky...

Having said that - the path of less resistance might be to go with a
mono print - toned - as opposed to a BW un-toned. When I was using an
Epson 2200 I seldom got good results with plain BW prints but would use
the duo / tri / quad tone settings in PS to make a warm, cool, sepia,
split tone etc simulation and the printer seemed to handle it better. I
don't know if Elements supports duo tones or not, but if it does give it
a try. A slightly warm print is pretty similar to many darkroom BW
prints and color inkjets that can't handle a pure BW print often do
better with something toned. Like I said - a subtle toning, especially a
slightly warm tone, produces a result similar to many classic BW
developer / paper combos.

Nonetheless, you may simply have a problem with metamerism - colors
looking different in different color light. Even when I got the the
Epson 2200 to kick out what I wanted prints looked different under
different light. So if the tones look off try looking at it under
different light. I don't know what generation of inks the R1800 uses,but
it might be prone to metamerism. You maybe could solve your problems by
changing your light bulbs. :-)

Good luck

Mark

On 4/1/2013 5:39 PM, Jack Davis wrote:

Thanks!

Jack

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Re: Printing BW

Thanks for thoughts, Mark. The light is everything and has been of primary use 
in judging results.
I think I've run the gamut with this program, and throughout full spectrum 
lighting was utilized.
The tones I sought were always clear.
 
Jack
 


 From: Mark C pdml-m...@charter.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net 
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW
  
Paul and Bill and others are right to note that you have to disable printer 
management of the color and then let PS Elements manage it. Otherwise you could 
get double profiling - PS Elements outputs the print profiled to the paper and 
then the printer re-profiles that and things go wonky...

Having said that - the path of less resistance might be to go with a mono print 
- toned - as opposed to a BW un-toned. When I was using an Epson 2200 I seldom 
got good results with plain BW prints but would use the duo / tri / quad tone 
settings in PS to make a warm, cool, sepia, split tone etc simulation and the 
printer seemed to handle it better. I don't know if Elements supports duo tones 
or not, but if it does give it a try. A slightly warm print is pretty similar 
to many darkroom BW prints and color inkjets that can't handle a pure BW 
print often do better with something toned. Like I said - a subtle toning, 
especially a slightly warm tone, produces a result similar to many classic BW 
developer / paper combos.

Nonetheless, you may simply have a problem with metamerism - colors looking 
different in different color light.  Even when I got the the Epson 2200 to kick 
out what I wanted prints looked different under different light. So if the 
tones look off try looking at it under different light. I don't know what 
generation of inks the R1800 uses,but it might be prone to metamerism. You 
maybe could solve your problems by changing your light bulbs. :-)

Good luck

Mark

On 4/1/2013 5:39 PM, Jack Davis wrote:
           I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, toilet 
and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
           I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
           The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
images.
           I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 
25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop elements 
manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
           I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but I'd 
likely not be around long enough to use it up.
           If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
help, please pass them along.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Jack
 


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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-01 Thread Paul Stenquist

Good results are very difficult to achieve when the printer controls the color. 
Change your setup to Photoshop controls color and turn off all printer color 
control. You can find instructions for printing workflow management on the web. 

Paul
On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

  I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
 sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
 Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, 
 toilet and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
  I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
 doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
 R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
  The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
 regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
 images.
  I've given control to the printer and then turned down the available 
 colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 25. Get a 
 grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop elements manages 
 color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
  I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but I'd 
 likely not be around long enough to use it up.
  If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
 help, please pass them along.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Jack
 
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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-01 Thread Mark Roberts

If the R1800 doesn't have a dedicated BW mode (using only black
inks), then at the very minimum you need to buy the hardware and
software for making your own paper profiles to have any hope of good
black and white results. Even then it's a very finicky business. I
gave up and ended up buying an Epson R3000 with multiple black inks
for my BW work and I believe that's really the way to go. I'd never
go back to printing BW with a color inkset.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography  Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Printing BW

Thanks, Paul. When I chose Photoshop controls color I no longer have access 
to color controls in the printing program. I'm absolutely satisfied that the 
image to be printed is BW.
I have a pro editor acquaintance to question on such things and he says he does 
two things when it comes to printing BW. 1) Clean printer heads. 2) Turn off 
all color controls. This person is now retired and working out of his home. I 
understand he makes house calls. I have his business card and am about ready to 
give him a call.

Thanks!

Jack


- Original Message -
From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

Good results are very difficult to achieve when the printer controls the color. 
Change your setup to Photoshop controls color and turn off all printer color 
control. You can find instructions for printing workflow management on the web. 

Paul
On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

          I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, toilet 
and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
          I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
          The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
images.
          I've given control to the printer and then turned down the available 
colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 25. Get a 
grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop elements manages 
color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
          I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but I'd 
likely not be around long enough to use it up.
          If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
help, please pass them along.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Jack
 
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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-01 Thread Steve Cottrell

On 1/4/13, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:

. I
gave up and ended up buying an Epson R3000 with multiple black inks
for my BW work and I believe that's really the way to go. I'd never
go back to printing BW with a color inkset.

Great - thanks a lot mate! Now I have to save up for one of those as well!!!

aaargh

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__Broadcast, Corporate,
||  (O)  |Web Video Producion
--www.seeingeye.tv
_



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Re: Printing BW

The R1800 doesn't have a dedicated BW mode. I've been aware of that for a good 
while.
I'm frustrated by the fact that at one time, I had no problem with BW. That, 
however, has been some time ago.
Thanks, Mark.

Jack



- Original Message -
From: Mark Roberts postmas...@robertstech.com
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

If the R1800 doesn't have a dedicated BW mode (using only black
inks), then at the very minimum you need to buy the hardware and
software for making your own paper profiles to have any hope of good
black and white results. Even then it's a very finicky business. I
gave up and ended up buying an Epson R3000 with multiple black inks
for my BW work and I believe that's really the way to go. I'd never
go back to printing BW with a color inkset.

-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography  Multimedia
http://www.robertstech.com/





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Re: Printing BW

Yeah...problem solved. 

Jack ;-)

- Original Message -
From: Steve Cottrell co...@seeingeye.tv
To: pentax list PDML@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

On 1/4/13, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:

. I
gave up and ended up buying an Epson R3000 with multiple black inks
for my BW work and I believe that's really the way to go. I'd never
go back to printing BW with a color inkset.

Great - thanks a lot mate! Now I have to save up for one of those as well!!!

aaargh

-- 

Cheers,
  Cotty

___/\__    Broadcast, Corporate,
||  (O)  |    Web Video Producion
--    http://www.seeingeye.tv/
_

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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-01 Thread Paul Stenquist

 I used to be able to get decent BW prints with an Epson 1200, which doesn't 
have multiple blacks. It's much easier with one of the newer multi-black 
printers like the 3000 or the 2880, but you should be able to get acceptable BW 
results with the 1800. 

You don't need or want access to the color controls in the printing 
program.Turn off all color controls and adjust color in PhotoShop. Select let 
photoshop control colors in your printing setup box. Use the Epson icc profile 
for the premium luster paper. It's very accurate. Render your photo as a 
grayscale image in PhotoShop, then convert it to whatever your PhotoShop color 
space is set to. Prophoto RGB or Adobe 98 RGB for example.  If your monitor 
calibration is accurate, the image in an RGB odor space should remain BW with 
no color tint. Then print with photoshop controlling the color. You may get a 
slight color case, but you should be pretty close to pure BW.
On Apr 1, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Thanks, Paul. When I chose Photoshop controls color I no longer have access 
 to color controls in the printing program. I'm absolutely satisfied that the 
 image to be printed is BW.
 I have a pro editor acquaintance to question on such things and he says he 
 does two things when it comes to printing BW. 1) Clean printer heads. 2) 
 Turn off all color controls. This person is now retired and working out of 
 his home. I understand he makes house calls. I have his business card and am 
 about ready to give him a call.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Jack
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Cc: 
 Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:25 PM
 Subject: Re: Printing BW
 
 Good results are very difficult to achieve when the printer controls the 
 color. Change your setup to Photoshop controls color and turn off all printer 
 color control. You can find instructions for printing workflow management on 
 the web. 
 
 Paul
 On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
   I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
 sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
 Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, 
 toilet and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
   I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
 doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
 R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
   The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
 regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
 images.
   I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
 available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of 
 minus 25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop 
 elements manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
   I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but 
 I'd likely not be around long enough to use it up.
   If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
 help, please pass them along.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Jack
 
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 follow the directions.
 
 
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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-01 Thread Bill


On 01/04/2013 3:39 PM, Jack Davis wrote:
  I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate 
having sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 
36 hours. Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times 
with meals, toilet and accompanying my wife in her travels to 
uninteresting places.
  I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make 
me doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus 
PHOTO R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
  The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a 
fairly regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows 
bordering images.
  I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of 
minus 25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop 
elements manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I 
do. Color hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent 
years, always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do 
that when I need a print larger than 13x 19.
  I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, 
but I'd likely not be around long enough to use it up.
  If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts 
that may help, please pass them along.


 Thanks!

 Jack

As Paul said, give control to Photoshop for colour management. Also, 
make sure that you don't accidentally have both printer and Photoshop 
managing the colour.
You are having the same colour problem with colour prints, but it is 
being masked by the colour itself. Sometimes with BW, you just have to 
decide what colour cast is least objectionable.
However, what I would do is make a test patch in Photoshop that is mid 
gray, and then start removing magenta from it in increments so that you 
end up with a test target that goes from gray to fairly green, and then 
print it. Check which patch is closest to neutral, and them make an 
action that will remove that amount of magenta from the image. Do all of 
your post processing, and then hit that action just prior to printing.
Sometimes this is the only way around things. When I was still in the 
lab, it wasn't uncommon with BW to have to make minor colour 
corrections when printing to get a decent neutral tone.


bill

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Re: Printing BW

2013-04-01 Thread Mark Roberts

Bill wrote:

Sometimes with BW, you just have to 
decide what colour cast is least objectionable.

Wisdom.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography  Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Printing BW

Thanks again, Paul. 

Jack

- Original Message -
From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: Printing BW

I used to be able to get decent BW prints with an Epson 1200, which doesn't 
have multiple blacks. It's much easier with one of the newer multi-black 
printers like the 3000 or the 2880, but you should be able to get acceptable BW 
results with the 1800. 

You don't need or want access to the color controls in the printing 
program.Turn off all color controls and adjust color in PhotoShop. Select let 
photoshop control colors in your printing setup box. Use the Epson icc profile 
for the premium luster paper. It's very accurate. Render your photo as a 
grayscale image in PhotoShop, then convert it to whatever your PhotoShop color 
space is set to. Prophoto RGB or Adobe 98 RGB for example.  If your monitor 
calibration is accurate, the image in an RGB odor space should remain BW with 
no color tint. Then print with photoshop controlling the color. You may get a 
slight color case, but you should be pretty close to pure BW.
On Apr 1, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Thanks, Paul. When I chose Photoshop controls color I no longer have access 
 to color controls in the printing program. I'm absolutely satisfied that the 
 image to be printed is BW.
 I have a pro editor acquaintance to question on such things and he says he 
 does two things when it comes to printing BW. 1) Clean printer heads. 2) 
 Turn off all color controls. This person is now retired and working out of 
 his home. I understand he makes house calls. I have his business card and am 
 about ready to give him a call.

 Thanks!

 Jack

 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Cc: 
 Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 3:25 PM
 Subject: Re: Printing BW

 Good results are very difficult to achieve when the printer controls the 
 color. Change your setup to Photoshop controls color and turn off all printer 
 color control. You can find instructions for printing workflow management on 
 the web. 

 Paul
 On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Jack Davis jdavi...@yahoo.com wrote:

           I'm done wasting photo paper...for the moment. I estimate having 
sacrificed about 20 sheets of A3 Ultra Premium Luster in the last 36 hours. 
Would have been more, but I've been interrupted a few times with meals, 
toilet and accompanying my wife in her travels to uninteresting places.
           I have proof of past BW successes which only serves to make me 
doubt myself rather than the printer. The printer is an Epson Stylus PHOTO 
R1800 (remember those?) which I bought new about a dozen years ago.
           The only calibrating I've ever done to the system is a fairly 
regular session with Huey whenever I begin to see ghostly shadows bordering 
images.
           I've given control to the printer and then turned down the 
available colors (only includes magenta, yellow and cyan) to a limit of minus 
25. Get a grape blue. If I select no color control or photoshop elements 
manages color it's a shade of magenta.
 I don't do a lot of printing any more, but seems it's a BW when I do. Color 
 hasn't been a problem.
 I've made several trips to my favorite lab in Sacramento in recent years, 
 always to get a BW done that I'm pressed to supply. I, also, do that when I 
 need a print larger than 13x 19.
           I've figured out that a new printer would solve my problem, but 
I'd likely not be around long enough to use it up.
           If you're familiar with the printer and have any thoughts that may 
help, please pass them along.

 Thanks!

 Jack

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Re: Printing BW