Fw: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Yes too true.. Quite well put.. That's why. I haven't read the rest of the posts on this topic yet as there are heaps.. but when I started working on my project with my graphics man we discussed the issue of using JS menus very thoroughly as yes Netscape and IE both have very different implementations when it comes to using DIV's and layers.. check it out: http://spectrum.ausgamers.com/ Hopefully it should all go well, and for NS users the dynamic menu simply won't be there and they can use the sidemenu navigation system... For IE they can utilise both systems.. Please give feedback if you do run into problems though.. Would love to get some broader testing on it.. If you wanna know how it runs I coded it myself and it uses a nice little linked list-type PHP array system which can be dynamically modified through each page (since the whole site runs off this really intergrated mysql principle) which will reflect the changes in the navbar menu and popup JS menus.. Ok.. well thx for feedback anyway.. Hope I can help.. - Original Message - From: michael kimsal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System... Miguel Cruz wrote: Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Yes too true.. Quite well put.. That's why. I haven't read the rest of the posts on this topic yet as there are heaps.. but when I started working on my project with my graphics man we discussed the issue of using JS menus very thoroughly as yes Netscape and IE both have very different implementations when it comes to using DIV's and layers.. check it out: http://spectrum.ausgamers.com/ Hopefully it should all go well, and for NS users the dynamic menu simply won't be there and they can use the sidemenu navigation system... For IE they can utilise both systems.. Please give feedback if you do run into problems though.. Would love to get some broader testing on it.. If you wanna know how it runs I coded it myself and it uses a nice little linked list-type PHP array system which can be dynamically modified through each page (since the whole site runs off this really intergrated mysql principle) which will reflect the changes in the navbar menu and popup JS menus.. Ok.. well thx for feedback anyway.. Hope I can help.. - Original Message - From: michael kimsal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System... Miguel Cruz wrote: Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Problem with Javascript is you have to support an IE version, a Netscape version and a Netscape 6 version. Then if you need to support users with dinosaurs, you'll have to have an IE 4 and a Netscape 3 version. Yikes. It just requires to much programming time for me to do too much with Javascript. I guess if I had the time to really learn the details of the various Domain Object Models it wouldn't be too difficult. A lot of the interactive online stuff I've written is geared towards a very specific audience, ie students that need to have Flash installed on their computers in order to access their course material. So I write stuff in Flash. You don't need a separate version for different browsers. Take a look at your audience and see what your options are. Rita Mikusch -Original Message- From: David Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 9:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System... On 29 Apr 2002 at 14:05, Martin Towell wrote: javascript should be easy enough to convert to php - thier language constructs are basically the same. Sure, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate. A menu system done in php will have the advantage of being, from the browsers point of view, plain html mostly. The disadvantage is that every change to that menu will have to be done server-side, meaning a page reload even if that's the only content that changes on the page. A menu system done in javascript won't require a reload but will, as Miguel points out, potentially break on systems where javascript is unavailable for whatever reason. In the end you should always be coding pages to degrade 'gracefully'. Even if you use a javascript navigation system there should still be a working menu system if javascript is not available. CYA, Dave -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
I could do this myself but I don't want to waist time writing something that I could have just asked for.. what I need is a menuing system.. When link is clicked the sub-topics appear under the topic you just clicked on.. e.g. if you where to click on Contact. Contact --becomes: Contact Enquires Account / Billing Media Enquiries Much like this JavaScript one... except I need it in PHP... http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On 29 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Dan wrote: what I need is a menuing system.. Much like this JavaScript one... except I need it in PHP... http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm Umm, you want to have to reload a whole page just to expand a navigation menu? Not real good use of resources I'd suggest, to say nothing of irritating people browsing your site. PHP is server-side, every time you do something it has to go back to the server to generate more html. Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. CYA, Dave -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, David Freeman wrote: On 29 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Dan wrote: what I need is a menuing system.. Much like this JavaScript one... except I need it in PHP... http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm Umm, you want to have to reload a whole page just to expand a navigation menu? Not real good use of resources I'd suggest, to say nothing of irritating people browsing your site. PHP is server-side, every time you do something it has to go back to the server to generate more html. Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
javascript should be easy enough to convert to php - thier language constructs are basically the same. I even found out, by accident, that you can have dollar signs ($) in front of javascript variables (in ie5.5 at least, haven't tried it in other browsers) -Original Message- From: Miguel Cruz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:03 PM To: David Freeman Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System... On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, David Freeman wrote: On 29 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Dan wrote: what I need is a menuing system.. Much like this JavaScript one... except I need it in PHP... http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm Umm, you want to have to reload a whole page just to expand a navigation menu? Not real good use of resources I'd suggest, to say nothing of irritating people browsing your site. PHP is server-side, every time you do something it has to go back to the server to generate more html. Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
At 3:11 PM +1200 29/4/02, Dan wrote: what I need is a menuing system.. When link is clicked the sub-topics appear under the topic you just clicked on.. PHPLIB contains a class that can do this. It's not as robust as the rest of PHPLIB, but it should serve as a good starting point for your task. http://sourceforge.net/projects/phplib/ You want php/menu.inc. There's a demo of it set up in the PHPLIB's pages/menu directory, and php/local.inc. You don't need any of the other PHPLIB classes installed to use it. Oh, and you're right about not using Javascript... the last thing you want is for the entire navigation system on your site to collapse into an unusable mess if Javascript is disabled! ...R. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On 29 Apr 2002 at 14:05, Martin Towell wrote: javascript should be easy enough to convert to php - thier language constructs are basically the same. Sure, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate. A menu system done in php will have the advantage of being, from the browsers point of view, plain html mostly. The disadvantage is that every change to that menu will have to be done server-side, meaning a page reload even if that's the only content that changes on the page. A menu system done in javascript won't require a reload but will, as Miguel points out, potentially break on systems where javascript is unavailable for whatever reason. In the end you should always be coding pages to degrade 'gracefully'. Even if you use a javascript navigation system there should still be a working menu system if javascript is not available. CYA, Dave -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On 28 Apr 2002 at 23:03, Miguel Cruz wrote: Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. True. In the end you've got to take that sort of thing into account and code pages that will degrade gracefully when using features that may not be available in all browsers. CYA, Dave -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On Monday 29 April 2002 11:11, Dan wrote: I could do this myself but I don't want to waist time writing something that I could have just asked for.. what I need is a menuing system.. When link is clicked the sub-topics appear under the topic you just clicked on.. e.g. if you where to click on Contact. Contact --becomes: Contact Enquires Account / Billing Media Enquiries Much like this JavaScript one... except I need it in PHP... http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm There are some classes to do this on: www.phpclasses.org -- Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.com.hk Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development * /* No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -- Eleanor Roosevelt */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Miguel Cruz wrote: Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
We have 1 or 2 clients that have js disabled because of security Also, I very often use Lynx (the text browser, not the game :) ) to browse the web. -Original Message- From: michael kimsal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System... Miguel Cruz wrote: Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, michael kimsal wrote: Miguel Cruz wrote: But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Palm Pilot Cell phones WebTV Lots of public internet kiosks Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. I've done consulting in bank and government offices where application proxies filtered out JavaScript. Given its frequent role as an attack vector, this struck me as only the tiniest bit paranoid. Go to any of the truly major sites, the ones that depend on getting large numbers of people in and have mastered the art of doing it gracefully, and you'll see that they don't depend on JavaScript. Even Microsoft's own MSNBC.com works fine without it. Likewise Yahoo, CNN, eBay, Amazon, etc. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. With current versions of Netscape and Mac browsers, I frequently see areas of flat (HTML-specified) color not matching non-web-safe GIF and JPEG colors. This creates unsightly seams (like not wearing a panty-liner, I guess). miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Miguel Cruz wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, michael kimsal wrote: Miguel Cruz wrote: But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Palm Pilot Cell phones Those don't generally support HTML either, but some WML or something similar. Palm's proxy service for the palm vii would translate HTML on the fly to its own markup language. Call me crazy, but I have this funny feeling most people doing the kind of projects where javascript menus are even a consideration aren't also doing cell phone work. WebTV Lots of public internet kiosks I don't think I've seen a kiosk in the past 2 years that, if it allowed public browsing, didn't allow javascript. The only time it appears to be non-functioning is in 'locked down' kiosks, and at that point I can't tell if javascript is 'disabled' or if the designers simply didn't use it (moot point at that stage anyway). Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. I've done consulting in bank and government offices where application proxies filtered out JavaScript. Given its frequent role as an attack vector, this struck me as only the tiniest bit paranoid. More than a tiny bit, imo. Any 'attack' worth its salt has been through outlook - people should spend more time filtering email with VB attachments than javascript in html pages. Go to any of the truly major sites, the ones that depend on getting large numbers of people in and have mastered the art of doing it gracefully, and you'll see that they don't depend on JavaScript. Even Microsoft's own MSNBC.com works fine without it. Likewise Yahoo, CNN, eBay, Amazon, etc. I'm more than aware of the approach of large players. I was not advocating using JS exclusively to the point of not working without it, but it seemed the advice was 'don't use it at all'. That's what I was getting from it before. MSDN, on the other hand, pretty much demands latest IE only or else nothing works - their prerogative to do so, I guess. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. With current versions of Netscape and Mac browsers, I frequently see areas of flat (HTML-specified) color not matching non-web-safe GIF and JPEG colors. This creates unsightly seams (like not wearing a panty-liner, I guess). PNGs cause more problem, ime, than anything else because IE doesn't render them properly. BTW, did you mean 'current version' of NS as '4.7x' or '6.x'. Just curious what people mean by 'current' NS these days. :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
on 29/04/02 2:46 PM, michael kimsal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? what about a text-to-speech system?? I also know that older pentiums and macs REALLY chug to get through the 100's or 1000's of lines of javascript for these dynamic menu's. as you've pointed out below, the web reaches more than PCs now -- fridges, hand-helds, phones, webTV, etc etc i'm sure these are only a few of many examples of poor/no support. Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. Corporate policy can mean many things. Libraries, schools, net cafes and the like all may choose such a security system, and are well within their rights. I don't believe the issue is about how rich or robust their experience may be... it's about making sure that you don't turn away users in droves. Why would a e-commerce site (fighting for customers already) rely on something like javascript for shopping carts and navigation systems??? It's like putting a no one shorter than 5'6 in height can enter our store sign on a shop window -- the result will be pissed off shoppers, and less sales. I'm not saying we should forever be stuck in a world without javascript -- that's stupid -- the world DOES need to move forward. But there's no way I'd specifically make surfing difficult/impossible for non JS browsers. Contingencies can be made via the use of NOSCRIPT tags and careful site planning. If a commercial web developer is making the decision to purposely turn away or ignor non-JS users (or non-CSS, or netscape, or webTV, or whatever else) without informing their client, then I believe they're providing a pathetic web development service, and ultimately acting against the best interests of the client. I'm sure you could be sued for something liket hat too. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. Yes, I now design all images for at least 1000's of colours, but I'm not even going to bother to ask where you magically found that 80% statistic... However IMO your comparison is incorrect. Thousands or millions of colours will degrade to lesser capable systems without any work on your behalf... 1000's 256 will just result in a blocky, dithered image on most systems -- even 1000's greyscale or even 2 colour (bw) will usually degrade okay. With some quick testing/planning, you can avoid illegible images on almost any platform. However, with Javascript, that complex menu system won't be automatically replaced with a non-JS one ... the browser will just ignore the code and render the page without navigation. Great! It's simple. Using JS content on any commercial website should not result in users being turned away or unable to navigate the site. It can be done, and rather than being looked upon as a burden of development, it should be a requirement for any website. Justin French Creative Director http://Indent.com.au -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On Monday 29 April 2002 12:46, michael kimsal wrote: Miguel Cruz wrote: Do it in JavaScript, it works and it's client side so it will be faster. But take care - using JavaScript for site navigation is tricky business. Some people don't use it, some people can't use it (not supported by their browsers / hardware / corporate policy), and search engines certainly won't follow those links. Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? I don't think it's hardware that was problem with javascript. Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' argument held, and probably holds today some if you're targetting handhelds and other 'non standard' devices. But if someone specifically disables Javascript these days, a good portion of their web experience will not be as robust as it would otherwise be, and they probably won't notice that using your site is any worse than any other site. Rather it was Microsoft's numerous bugs and vulnerabilities within IE which lead people to disable scripting. And of course annoying pop-up windows are another major reason to disable javascript. Konqueror is the only browser (that I've used) which supports per-site javascript policy (deny, allow, disable pop-ups). IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. You're comparing apples with spades. I think with most browsers, people need to make a conscious decision to disable javascript (ie it's enabled by default). In other words these people /should/ know what they're doing by disabling it. On the other hand I don't think many people would actively choose to browse in 256 colours when any machine less than 3 years old would most definitely support true colour. -- Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.com.hk Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development * /* The strong give up and move away, while the weak give up and stay. */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Mark Charette wrote: -Original Message- From: michael kimsal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler specifically disallow running of JavaScript, Java, and ActiveX via browsers on any computers connected to the Internet. Seems kinda silly then that GM and Ford (didn't check dcx) would rely so heavily on javascript and fancy crap on their own public websites. Perhaps none of their tens of thousands of workers is allowed to view their website - or maybe you mean they reserve it separately on the inside. IBM recommends that all scripting services be turned off but does not disallow it. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
Konqueror is the only browser (that I've used) which supports per-site javascript policy (deny, allow, disable pop-ups). Actually, Opera support this too - one reason why I do a lot of my browsing in Opera or Lynx, no pop-ups :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Michael Kimsal wrote: Miguel Cruz wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, michael kimsal wrote: Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Palm Pilot Cell phones Those don't generally support HTML either, but some WML or something similar. Palm's proxy service for the palm vii would translate HTML on the fly to its own markup language. Whatever the mechanism, they're still out there - and in ever-growing numbers. Call me crazy, but I have this funny feeling most people doing the kind of projects where javascript menus are even a consideration aren't also doing cell phone work. I have no doubt that you can categorize a set of projects where the user experience would benefit from JavaScript and where visits from cell phones are highly unlikely. But that doesn't make it fair to generalize that there is no hardware in active use that can't handle JavaScript. WebTV Lots of public internet kiosks I don't think I've seen a kiosk in the past 2 years that, if it allowed public browsing, didn't allow javascript. The only time it appears to be non-functioning is in 'locked down' kiosks, and at that point I can't tell if javascript is 'disabled' or if the designers simply didn't use it (moot point at that stage anyway). In the past year, I've run into such kiosks at a Spanish train station, a Malaysian shopping mall, and at airports all over the world where JavaScript wasn't supported (this having stuck in my mind because the webmail gateway I was using at the time made life difficult in these cases). Once again, whatever the explanation, they still exist aplenty. I've done consulting in bank and government offices where application proxies filtered out JavaScript. Given its frequent role as an attack vector, this struck me as only the tiniest bit paranoid. More than a tiny bit, imo. Any 'attack' worth its salt has been through outlook - people should spend more time filtering email with VB attachments than javascript in html pages. Trust me, the organizations that filter JavaScript do not have Outlook on their desktop. If you're going to be serious about security, no point being half-assed about it. I was not advocating using JS exclusively to the point of not working without it, but it seemed the advice was 'don't use it at all'. That's what I was getting from it before. My advice was not to create a situation where JavaScript was the only way to navigate the site. I stand by that. MSDN, on the other hand, pretty much demands latest IE only or else nothing works - their prerogative to do so, I guess. Sure, that's pretty much neither here not there. MSDN in this context is a site for people who develop for IE, not for the web. I'm sure that if there's an International JavaScript Federation, they use JavaScript by the bucketfull too. That's no more an indication of best practices than sampling the corporate parking lot at Ford Motors to determine the best car to drive. miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On Monday 29 April 2002 13:05, Martin Towell wrote: Konqueror is the only browser (that I've used) which supports per-site javascript policy (deny, allow, disable pop-ups). Actually, Opera support this too - one reason why I do a lot of my browsing in Opera or Lynx, no pop-ups :) Is is in the 6.x series? With my 5.12, the only options for Javascript are [Enable Javascript] and [Report Javascript errors]. -- Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.com.hk Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development * /* We have DIFFERENT amounts of HAIR -- */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jason Wong) wrote: Konqueror is the only browser (that I've used) which supports per-site javascript policy (deny, allow, disable pop-ups). iCab too. It allows suppression of various intrusive JS features on a global and per-host basis. You can surf without the automatic popups, but still traverse all those silly a href=javascript: open(...) links by authors allergic to the onclick handler. -- CC -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
At 12:46 AM -0400 29/4/02, michael kimsal wrote: Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? My company does this. It's the only way to surf without being inundated with pop(up|over|under) windows. I've heard (unconfirmed) that a couple of local banks do too, as part of their security policy. And of course the companies Google, AltaVista and friends won't navigate through a site which requires Javascript. Javascript has been abused to the point where it's not of any benefit any more, IMHO. I'm yet to find a site with content worth accessing which *requires* Javascript (or Flash). ...R. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] lookin for a Menuing System...
On 29 Apr 2002 at 0:46, michael kimsal wrote: Can someone point me to hardware that is still in active use that can't handle javascript? Hardware? No. Similarly, can someone point me to a company that specifically disables javascript as 'corporate policy'? Back in 96-97, the 'no javascript' Hmmm, not specifically. Although, I can think of at least one large organisation with a WAN that would have thousands of computers that specifically _ADDS_ their own javascript-based navigation to the top of every single page in the browser. This particular behaviour will break any javascript mouse-over that doesn't specifically name, and use by name, mouse-overs. The point in a network the size of the Internet you just don't know. A good web programmer is going to take into account that some people will deliberately disable javascript. For those people you get a choice. Either ignore them or take them into account. It's your decision. Just because everyone else does it is not enough reason. Few web designers take the blind into account when designing but that doesn't mean it's right. In fact, here in Australia the Sydney Olympics web site was the subject of (winning if I recall) legal action over it's inaccessibility to the blind. There are ways to make sure your wonderful web design will still work if javascript isn't present. There are design rules that will leave your website mostly navigable to people using text-based browsers. There are ways to degrade capabilities gracefully, and ways to disable badly. An example of badly is to basically tell someone to bugger off because they don't have 'xxx' (where 'xxx' is whatever technology you want to use, be it javascript, java, flash, etc, etc). If they can figure out you don't have it and give you a message about it then they can insert something that leaves the site functional - even if not as nice an experience. IMO, it's now like targetting only websafe colors because some people might only browse in 256 colors. If they do that, about 80% of the web's content will look like crap anyway, and they won't specifically think my stuff looks all that much worse than anyone else's. Depends on your audience. I fair percentage of computer owners never adjust their screen resolution from whatever it was delivered at. If the store left it at 800x600x256 then they will never change it even if it's capable of more. I know of at least one organisation that was running 17 monitors at 640x480x256 because that's how they were set up when delivered! Weren't they surprised when we changed it for them... CYA, Dave -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
