Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
"Running from one vendor to the next isn't going to change anything - You just keep running." Yes, to a point. Is the fight to get this sorted out is worth your time and energy then go forth and fight the good fight. I greatly respect your values and commitment to truth, honesty, transparency and consistency. Throughout my career as a Network Engineer with some multinational telecom companies, I fought epic and ugly battles with sales & marketing teams as I often found myself advocating for the customer. In the end I burned a lot of bridges and the people that loved me when I went in and saved the sale when the customer was threatening to rip & replace our equipment, hated me when I called them out on their BS that caused the problem they had to send me in to fix. Anyway, every app, tool, technology has its strengths & weaknesses and might not work in every situation and there are other secure email providers. I personally think Riseup.net is a more secure service. They provide an internet canary too. Not too many service providers do that anymore to the best of my knowledge. "Riseup positively confirms that the integrity of our system is sound: all our infrastructure is in our control, we have not been compromised or suffered a data breach, we have not disclosed any private encryption keys, and we have not been forced to modify our system to allow access or information leakage to a third party. This canary will be re-signed on the following dates: * February 1 * May 1 * August 1 * November 1" I jumped on Protonmail mostly b'cuz of the Android app but Riseup.net is a regional provider, Seattle based, and very much worth supporting. Your reporting of your problem has got me considering dropping Protonmail and recommitting to my riseup.net account that I never use as it's not as user-friendly.
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:12 AM Keith Lofstrom wrote: > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 02:58:15PM -0800, Ben Koenig wrote: > > Well, it appears that Proton has made their decision and are blaming PLUG > > for this issue. > > > > Yes, that's correct. Proton Mail does not allow third-party services to > > send messages on our behalf. > > It's their party, they can cry if they want to. Protonmail > is useful as a privacy-protecting email service, but is not > useful as a general purpose tool. > > Perhaps we should explore alternatives to Protonmail that are > (1) zealously protective of privacy, and (2) compatible with > mailing lists like plug, and (3) incompatible with masquerade > by spammers ... which I suspect motivates Protonmail's policy. > > From the 10,000 foot level, email seems to be broken, diluted > by spam and abused by criminals, so perhaps we should find > (or invent and sell) better baskets to put our precious > communication eggs in. No clue how; I run my own email > server, and spend way too much time training spam filters. > > Keith > > -- > Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com So I take issue with that approach. Not saying anyone has to change but there's a problem that everyone says they want to fix, but never actually does when the opportunity presents itself.. Protonmail is zealously protective at privacy, that's where it excels. The problem is that their implementation creates ambiguity and fails to take into consideration how email is actually used. My core problem is that if they communicated this effectively then it would be a decision on their end. Sales/Marketing tells me one thing, Support tells me something else. If anything they are literally over-zealous, to the point of embarking on an Inquisition to execute bad emails. Now most people in this situation would say "meh, moving on to someone else's product." But for me there's more to it. Forgive me for bringing politics in, but political systems are nothing more than a management system that reflects the cultures and societies that they manage. And right now much of the "developed" world is having a bit of a problem with things like facts, trust, and basic honesty. I mean, nobody here thinks Bill Gates is a good person, but we've all heard the conspiracy theories, right? It is easy to go and have an opinion here, but it's very different to actually root cause where the confusion and anger comes from. When companies (which are just big groups of people) get into a habit of misleading and in some cases, intentionally lying it creates problems for trust and throws off communication. We had an example of that here on PLUG not long ago. The discussion regarding censorship via Cloudflare was rooted in fear and concern. This invited someone attempting to correct the record, and honestly neither of them were wrong. But we all know there are issues with censorship, whether it be the result of malicious activity, technical failure, or even the fact that someone can, if they felt the urge to cut someone off. I mean right now, Protonmail is silently dropping their own users' emails. And what makes this so strange to me is that they have the technical infrastructure to A) determine that an email might be spoofed and B) notify the user. This is good, make identity verification something that I (the User) am in full control of. Instead they are deciding that in the case of other Proton users, drop the message, tell the recipient nothing, and move on. A potentially legit message disappearing without a trace. No warning, no FAQ, and no marketing material that tells me such a thing may happen? That's sketchy, super fucking sketchy. Email isn't broken, people are. Even those of us who claim to have knowledge in this area have been known to do things incorrectly. Running from one vendor to the next isn't going to change anything - You just keep running. -Ben
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 02:58:15PM -0800, Ben Koenig wrote: > Well, it appears that Proton has made their decision and are blaming PLUG > for this issue. > > Yes, that's correct. Proton Mail does not allow third-party services to > send messages on our behalf. It's their party, they can cry if they want to. Protonmail is useful as a privacy-protecting email service, but is not useful as a general purpose tool. Perhaps we should explore alternatives to Protonmail that are (1) zealously protective of privacy, and (2) compatible with mailing lists like plug, and (3) incompatible with masquerade by spammers ... which I suspect motivates Protonmail's policy. >From the 10,000 foot level, email seems to be broken, diluted by spam and abused by criminals, so perhaps we should find (or invent and sell) better baskets to put our precious communication eggs in. No clue how; I run my own email server, and spend way too much time training spam filters. Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
Well, it appears that Proton has made their decision and are blaming PLUG for this issue. >From there support team: *> Filip F.* (ProtonMail) > Jan 20, 2023, 16:26 GMT+1 > Hello Ben, > Thanks for the feedback. We apologize for the delayed response. > Yes, that's correct. Proton Mail does not allow third-party services to send messages on our behalf. > Third-party servers should not use any Proton Mail address as the "From Address" of an email. Emails sent this way would be dropped because they would use an incorrect From Address. > Thank you for your understanding. > Kind regards, > Filip F. > Customer Support > Proton Mail """ I still don't buy this, simply because if Proton wants to say that any message where there is a discrepancy between the sender domain and the "from" domain must be dropped, they should do so consistently. They let through everyone else so I still call BS on them. BUT, is PLUG in any way different from how other mailing lists operate? i.e. LKML or any of the lists used by various distros. If the PLUG lists are configured the way everyone does it then Proton is basically saying everyone except them is doing it wrong. -Ben On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 7:22 AM Kevin Williams wrote: > Ben, > > I started migrating from Gmail to ProtonMail a few years ago, bought a > paid plan, and parked my domain with them. > > I switched to Fastmail about four months ago, because proton mail does not > support Mutt, or any email client without their local decryption bridge > installed (no support for the BSDs). > > I still have a proton account, but without my domain there, and on the > free plan. It’s a recovery address in case anything happens with my domain. > > Kevin > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, at 6:57 PM, Ben Koenig wrote: > > Testing a working around. Father unit noticed some discrepencies with > protonmail interop on other mailman lists. > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > --- Original Message --- > > On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 8:55 AM, Ben Koenig < > techkoe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > (responding from my gmail account now) > > > > > > So sure, there are technical nuances that are the underlying cause of > this > > > behavior. However, the whole point of a computer is consistent > execution of > > > a given policy. Regardless of protonmail's stance on this there are a > > > number of problems with the way they have communicated it, expectations > > > they have set, and even the technical side itself is in question. > > > > > > Mailing lists are a fact of how email is used. By configuring your > server > > > in a way that causes this situation you are effectively disabling > support > > > for things like Linux Kernel development (they work through the LKML). > > > Saying that your Secure Email Service can't be used to assist in the > > > development of one of the world's biggest Secure Operating Systems > hardly > > > seems like a reasonable business strategy. I'm not a dev or engineer, > but I > > > am an expert in Support and this is something that companies need to > stop > > > doing. I'm going through their support docs and have yet to find > anything > > > stating what I was just told. No FAQ's referencing this or any other > > > warnings that this is not supported. > > > > > > There is also the double standard that the UI literally knows how to > > > differentiate normal emails from list emails by displaying a message > that > > > says "This message is from a mailing list". Ths implies that protonmail > > > does in fact support interop with mailman, despite their support team's > > > claim that they do not. Their website (https://proton.me/mail) also > > > suggests that mailing lists can be used with their service. So why am > I now > > > being told that they don't support it? > > > > > > I pay protonmail SPECIFICALLY for the honesty and support that comes > with > > > being a paying customer. I don't complain too harshly about the dumb > shit > > > gmail does because it costs me $0 to have gmail. If you don't like what > > > google does - LEAVE. Not only am I considering cancelling my > subscription, > > > but I have half a mind to reach out to a lawyer and see if this can be > > > considered false advertising. I really don't care who is to blame for > this > > > shit, because upper managers at tech companies need to learn how to > keep > > > their entire organization synchronized. > > > > > > Selling access to a web service isn't just about how it works. It's > about > > > setting expectations and building trust. And in this case, a bunch of > > > scientists from CERN just abused my trust and I can either challenge > them > > > on a field of facts... or I can "lie back and take it". Since PLUG has > > > several other protonmail users, I suggest they contact support and ask > > > what's up. > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jason Barbier ja...@corrupted.io > wrote: > > > > > > > I can tell you they are right and wrong, I get p
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
Ben, I started migrating from Gmail to ProtonMail a few years ago, bought a paid plan, and parked my domain with them. I switched to Fastmail about four months ago, because proton mail does not support Mutt, or any email client without their local decryption bridge installed (no support for the BSDs). I still have a proton account, but without my domain there, and on the free plan. It’s a recovery address in case anything happens with my domain. Kevin On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, at 6:57 PM, Ben Koenig wrote: > Testing a working around. Father unit noticed some discrepencies with > protonmail interop on other mailman lists. > > > -Ben > > > --- Original Message --- > On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 8:55 AM, Ben Koenig > wrote: > > > > (responding from my gmail account now) > > > > So sure, there are technical nuances that are the underlying cause of this > > behavior. However, the whole point of a computer is consistent execution of > > a given policy. Regardless of protonmail's stance on this there are a > > number of problems with the way they have communicated it, expectations > > they have set, and even the technical side itself is in question. > > > > Mailing lists are a fact of how email is used. By configuring your server > > in a way that causes this situation you are effectively disabling support > > for things like Linux Kernel development (they work through the LKML). > > Saying that your Secure Email Service can't be used to assist in the > > development of one of the world's biggest Secure Operating Systems hardly > > seems like a reasonable business strategy. I'm not a dev or engineer, but I > > am an expert in Support and this is something that companies need to stop > > doing. I'm going through their support docs and have yet to find anything > > stating what I was just told. No FAQ's referencing this or any other > > warnings that this is not supported. > > > > There is also the double standard that the UI literally knows how to > > differentiate normal emails from list emails by displaying a message that > > says "This message is from a mailing list". Ths implies that protonmail > > does in fact support interop with mailman, despite their support team's > > claim that they do not. Their website (https://proton.me/mail) also > > suggests that mailing lists can be used with their service. So why am I now > > being told that they don't support it? > > > > I pay protonmail SPECIFICALLY for the honesty and support that comes with > > being a paying customer. I don't complain too harshly about the dumb shit > > gmail does because it costs me $0 to have gmail. If you don't like what > > google does - LEAVE. Not only am I considering cancelling my subscription, > > but I have half a mind to reach out to a lawyer and see if this can be > > considered false advertising. I really don't care who is to blame for this > > shit, because upper managers at tech companies need to learn how to keep > > their entire organization synchronized. > > > > Selling access to a web service isn't just about how it works. It's about > > setting expectations and building trust. And in this case, a bunch of > > scientists from CERN just abused my trust and I can either challenge them > > on a field of facts... or I can "lie back and take it". Since PLUG has > > several other protonmail users, I suggest they contact support and ask > > what's up. > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jason Barbier ja...@corrupted.io wrote: > > > > > I can tell you they are right and wrong, I get protonmail replies from the > > > list but I had to go monkey around with my spam settings to ensure they > > > land in my inbox. What they do is have all their spam controls like dmarc > > > and spf set to hard fail, when your service evaluates the message PLUGs > > > mail servers are not on the allow list, your servers spam filters do what > > > they do which for a lot of people its stuff it in the big dev null in the > > > sky. Now the part where protonmail is wrong is they can't force my servers > > > to do anything what they do with the info protonmail gives me is still in > > > my control. > > > There is little that can be done to fix this, the only real way to fix it > > > is changing the mailman behavior to send from an address on the plug > > > domain > > > which has its own problems. The only reason that is the only real way is > > > regardless of protonmail or any other service changing parts of thier spam > > > controls mailman is still spoofing addresses and will still fail dkim and > > > other more advanced controls, and it would honestly not be a workable > > > solution to try and allow list serves to send as your domain. This breaks > > > a > > > lot of the behavior of things like listservs but spammers and advertisers > > > once again ruin something for everyone > > > > > > On 18 at 08:01 someone claiming to be Ben Koenig said: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > As I
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
Testing a working around. Father unit noticed some discrepencies with protonmail interop on other mailman lists. -Ben --- Original Message --- On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 8:55 AM, Ben Koenig wrote: > (responding from my gmail account now) > > So sure, there are technical nuances that are the underlying cause of this > behavior. However, the whole point of a computer is consistent execution of > a given policy. Regardless of protonmail's stance on this there are a > number of problems with the way they have communicated it, expectations > they have set, and even the technical side itself is in question. > > Mailing lists are a fact of how email is used. By configuring your server > in a way that causes this situation you are effectively disabling support > for things like Linux Kernel development (they work through the LKML). > Saying that your Secure Email Service can't be used to assist in the > development of one of the world's biggest Secure Operating Systems hardly > seems like a reasonable business strategy. I'm not a dev or engineer, but I > am an expert in Support and this is something that companies need to stop > doing. I'm going through their support docs and have yet to find anything > stating what I was just told. No FAQ's referencing this or any other > warnings that this is not supported. > > There is also the double standard that the UI literally knows how to > differentiate normal emails from list emails by displaying a message that > says "This message is from a mailing list". Ths implies that protonmail > does in fact support interop with mailman, despite their support team's > claim that they do not. Their website (https://proton.me/mail) also > suggests that mailing lists can be used with their service. So why am I now > being told that they don't support it? > > I pay protonmail SPECIFICALLY for the honesty and support that comes with > being a paying customer. I don't complain too harshly about the dumb shit > gmail does because it costs me $0 to have gmail. If you don't like what > google does - LEAVE. Not only am I considering cancelling my subscription, > but I have half a mind to reach out to a lawyer and see if this can be > considered false advertising. I really don't care who is to blame for this > shit, because upper managers at tech companies need to learn how to keep > their entire organization synchronized. > > Selling access to a web service isn't just about how it works. It's about > setting expectations and building trust. And in this case, a bunch of > scientists from CERN just abused my trust and I can either challenge them > on a field of facts... or I can "lie back and take it". Since PLUG has > several other protonmail users, I suggest they contact support and ask > what's up. > > -Ben > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jason Barbier ja...@corrupted.io wrote: > > > I can tell you they are right and wrong, I get protonmail replies from the > > list but I had to go monkey around with my spam settings to ensure they > > land in my inbox. What they do is have all their spam controls like dmarc > > and spf set to hard fail, when your service evaluates the message PLUGs > > mail servers are not on the allow list, your servers spam filters do what > > they do which for a lot of people its stuff it in the big dev null in the > > sky. Now the part where protonmail is wrong is they can't force my servers > > to do anything what they do with the info protonmail gives me is still in > > my control. > > There is little that can be done to fix this, the only real way to fix it > > is changing the mailman behavior to send from an address on the plug domain > > which has its own problems. The only reason that is the only real way is > > regardless of protonmail or any other service changing parts of thier spam > > controls mailman is still spoofing addresses and will still fail dkim and > > other more advanced controls, and it would honestly not be a workable > > solution to try and allow list serves to send as your domain. This breaks a > > lot of the behavior of things like listservs but spammers and advertisers > > once again ruin something for everyone > > > > On 18 at 08:01 someone claiming to be Ben Koenig said: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > As I've mentioned recently, I've been having trouble receiving emails > > > from this list when the sender is using a protonmail.com account. Since > > > this appears to be protonmail specific, I contacted their support team, > > > provided an example message (with timestamp) and confirmed that this > > > was through a mailing list (running Mailman). Here is the response I > > > got: > > > > > > """ > > > Hello, > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback. > > > > > > Please note that sending a message on a behalf of Proton Mail by using > > > a third-party service is not allowed, and that's the reason why you > > > didn't receive the message. > > > > > > We set our system that way in order to protec
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
(responding from my gmail account now) So sure, there are technical nuances that are the underlying cause of this behavior. However, the whole point of a computer is consistent execution of a given policy. Regardless of protonmail's stance on this there are a number of problems with the way they have communicated it, expectations they have set, and even the technical side itself is in question. Mailing lists are a fact of how email is used. By configuring your server in a way that causes this situation you are effectively disabling support for things like Linux Kernel development (they work through the LKML). Saying that your Secure Email Service can't be used to assist in the development of one of the world's biggest Secure Operating Systems hardly seems like a reasonable business strategy. I'm not a dev or engineer, but I am an expert in Support and this is something that companies need to stop doing. I'm going through their support docs and have yet to find anything stating what I was just told. No FAQ's referencing this or any other warnings that this is not supported. There is also the double standard that the UI literally knows how to differentiate normal emails from list emails by displaying a message that says "This message is from a mailing list". Ths implies that protonmail does in fact support interop with mailman, despite their support team's claim that they do not. Their website (https://proton.me/mail) also suggests that mailing lists can be used with their service. So why am I now being told that they don't support it? I pay protonmail SPECIFICALLY for the honesty and support that comes with being a paying customer. I don't complain too harshly about the dumb shit gmail does because it costs me $0 to have gmail. If you don't like what google does - LEAVE. Not only am I considering cancelling my subscription, but I have half a mind to reach out to a lawyer and see if this can be considered false advertising. I really don't care who is to blame for this shit, because upper managers at tech companies need to learn how to keep their entire organization synchronized. Selling access to a web service isn't just about how it works. It's about setting expectations and building trust. And in this case, a bunch of scientists from CERN just abused my trust and I can either challenge them on a field of facts... or I can "lie back and take it". Since PLUG has several other protonmail users, I suggest they contact support and ask what's up. -Ben On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jason Barbier wrote: > I can tell you they are right and wrong, I get protonmail replies from the > list but I had to go monkey around with my spam settings to ensure they > land in my inbox. What they do is have all their spam controls like dmarc > and spf set to hard fail, when your service evaluates the message PLUGs > mail servers are not on the allow list, your servers spam filters do what > they do which for a lot of people its stuff it in the big dev null in the > sky. Now the part where protonmail is wrong is they can't force my servers > to do anything what they do with the info protonmail gives me is still in > my control. > There is little that can be done to fix this, the only real way to fix it > is changing the mailman behavior to send from an address on the plug domain > which has its own problems. The only reason that is the only real way is > regardless of protonmail or any other service changing parts of thier spam > controls mailman is still spoofing addresses and will still fail dkim and > other more advanced controls, and it would honestly not be a workable > solution to try and allow list serves to send as your domain. This breaks a > lot of the behavior of things like listservs but spammers and advertisers > once again ruin something for everyone > > On 18 at 08:01 someone claiming to be Ben Koenig said: > > Hi all, > > > > As I've mentioned recently, I've been having trouble receiving emails > > from this list when the sender is using a protonmail.com account. Since > > this appears to be protonmail specific, I contacted their support team, > > provided an example message (with timestamp) and confirmed that this > > was through a mailing list (running Mailman). Here is the response I > > got: > > > > """ > > Hello, > > > > Thanks for the feedback. > > > > Please note that sending a message on a behalf of Proton Mail by using > > a third-party service is not allowed, and that's the reason why you > > didn't receive the message. > > > > We set our system that way in order to protect Proton Mail’s IP > > reputation and ensure all messages sent from Proton Mail are delivered > > to your recipient’s inbox — not their spam folder > > > > We apologize for not being able to assist you on this matter. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Filip F. > > Customer Support > > Proton Mail > > > > """ > > > > Obviously I'm not pleased with that response. BUT I faintly recall > > someone else on this list using this particula
Re: [PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
I can tell you they are right and wrong, I get protonmail replies from the list but I had to go monkey around with my spam settings to ensure they land in my inbox. What they do is have all their spam controls like dmarc and spf set to hard fail, when your service evaluates the message PLUGs mail servers are not on the allow list, your servers spam filters do what they do which for a lot of people its stuff it in the big dev null in the sky. Now the part where protonmail is wrong is they can't force my servers to do anything what they do with the info protonmail gives me is still in my control. There is little that can be done to fix this, the only real way to fix it is changing the mailman behavior to send from an address on the plug domain which has its own problems. The only reason that is the only real way is regardless of protonmail or any other service changing parts of thier spam controls mailman is still spoofing addresses and will still fail dkim and other more advanced controls, and it would honestly not be a workable solution to try and allow list serves to send as your domain. This breaks a lot of the behavior of things like listservs but spammers and advertisers once again ruin something for everyone On 18 at 08:01 someone claiming to be Ben Koenig said: > Hi all, > > As I've mentioned recently, I've been having trouble receiving emails > from this list when the sender is using a protonmail.com account. Since > this appears to be protonmail specific, I contacted their support team, > provided an example message (with timestamp) and confirmed that this > was through a mailing list (running Mailman). Here is the response I > got: > > """ > Hello, > > Thanks for the feedback. > > Please note that sending a message on a behalf of Proton Mail by using > a third-party service is not allowed, and that's the reason why you > didn't receive the message. > > We set our system that way in order to protect Proton Mail’s IP > reputation and ensure all messages sent from Proton Mail are delivered > to your recipient’s inbox — not their spam folder > > We apologize for not being able to assist you on this matter. > > Kind regards, > > Filip F. > Customer Support > Proton Mail > > """ > > Obviously I'm not pleased with that response. BUT I faintly recall > someone else on this list using this particular service once replied to > one of my emails, but of course I never saw it, just another user's > reply. > > For any protonmail users on PLUG that do receive this message, can you > please reply to verify that you did? According to their support team > under no circumstances should you be seeing this message. > > Given that I likely won't see your response, also send a different > email (+different subject) to me directly so that I can compare. > -Ben -- --- GPG: https://corrupted.io/kusuriya.pub
[PLUG] Protonmail vs PLUG - The battle rages on
Hi all, As I've mentioned recently, I've been having trouble receiving emails from this list when the sender is using a protonmail.com account. Since this appears to be protonmail specific, I contacted their support team, provided an example message (with timestamp) and confirmed that this was through a mailing list (running Mailman). Here is the response I got: """ Hello, Thanks for the feedback. Please note that sending a message on a behalf of Proton Mail by using a third-party service is not allowed, and that's the reason why you didn't receive the message. We set our system that way in order to protect Proton Mail’s IP reputation and ensure all messages sent from Proton Mail are delivered to your recipient’s inbox — not their spam folder We apologize for not being able to assist you on this matter. Kind regards, Filip F. Customer Support Proton Mail """ Obviously I'm not pleased with that response. BUT I faintly recall someone else on this list using this particular service once replied to one of my emails, but of course I never saw it, just another user's reply. For any protonmail users on PLUG that do receive this message, can you please reply to verify that you did? According to their support team under no circumstances should you be seeing this message. Given that I likely won't see your response, also send a different email (+different subject) to me directly so that I can compare. -Ben
