[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[rob markwardt]

Fat tires might be faster but they are also better at smashing apples
in the road...I love to run over apples.  Today, however, I hit the
mother lode and the fatties did the the trick.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77502424@N00/7737776696/

Carry on.



On Aug 7, 6:57 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 19:39 -0500, Eric Platt wrote:
> > Regarding "wider is faster" - first reference Bicycle Quartery Volume
> > 4, Number 1 page 43 "I have found that lightweight, wide, supple tires
> > at lower pressure are at least as fast as less supple tires at higher
> > pressures."
> > Bicycle Quarterly Volume 5, Number 1, page 23 "2. Wider tires are
> > faster"
> > Bicycle Quarterly Volume 9, Number 1, page 63 "For example, in our
> > real-road testing of tire performance, we found that wider tires, run
> > at lower pressures, can be as fast as (if not faster than) narrow
> > tires at ultral-high pressure." (Citing the test in Volume 5, Number
> > one above.)
>
> > So, yes, I guess no one ever said wider tires are faster.
>
> Look down, Eric.  The 'claim' was "wider is ALWAYS faster."  Your
> quotations demonstrate that claim was not made.
>
>
>
> > I really need something better to do with my time.
>
> Accuracy counts when you are quoting someone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Eric Platt
> > St. Paul, MN
>
> > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Steve Palincsar 
> > wrote:
> >         On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:37 -0500, Eric Platt wrote:
> >         > Now, I don't ride fast.  And because of that, rarely ride
> >         with others.
> >         > And the skinniest tire I have is a 700x37.  But if wider is
> >         always
> >         > faster, then the Surly Moonlander with the 4.5 inch wide,
> >         incredibly
> >         > supple tires must the the fastest bike out there.
>
> >         Nobody has ever made either claim.
>
> >         --
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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[ted]

Call me lazy or incompetent but I can't find an explanation of why
whoever coined the terms use as related to bicycles thought it was
apt. Can anybody here explain why planing is an apt term for
beneficial flexing of a bicycles main triangle?

On Aug 7, 11:31 am, Robert Zeidler  wrote:
> And if memory serves I might have seen the term in Bicycle Guide back in the 
> 80's
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Ryan Watson  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but...
> > Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was 
> > Grant Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention.
> > The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they 
> > preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was going 
> > OS. It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared it to 
> > jumping higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard concrete floor.
> > One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as it 
> > recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go."
> > I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS 
> > tubing on Rivendell bikes.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Ryan in Albuquerque
>
> > On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted  wrote:
>
> >> "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when
> >> he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC.  He borrowed the term
> >> from boating."
>
> >> Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that
> >> I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion.
> >> When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it.
> >> It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and
> >> there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where
> >> resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and
> >> planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable
> >> oscillating bottom bracket motion.
>
> >> On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> >>> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he 
> >>> was first thinking about the issue, IIRC.  He borrowed the term from 
> >>> boating.
>
> >>> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, 
> >>> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are.  My 
> >>> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there 
> >>> are too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the 
> >>> stiffest BB due to the ovalized seat tube.
>
> >>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted  wrote:
>
>  Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over
>  whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff
>  enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I
>  think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right
>  flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good
>  "performance" bike.
>
>  Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about
>  beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get
>  why thats called planing. Does somebody here know?
>
>  On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> > On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> >> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote:
>
> >>> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he
> >>> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these
> >>> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of
> >>> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant
> >>> group except perhaps BQ subscribers).
>
> >> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for 
> >> sure.
> >> A downright heretic in that respect.  As for the rest, don't be so 
> >> sure:
> >> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the
> >> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed.
>
> > True enough.  Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially 
> > overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, 
> > chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc.  The power 
> > loss from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no 
> > difference, even with "noodly" frames.  I like mine to be stiff enough 
> > to make derailleur rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never 
> > actually been able to feel any power loss from frame flex.  Someone 
> > already mentioned Sean Kelly who won monuments and Classics, the 
> > maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., on one of the most notoriously 
> > noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979.  If the frame flex handicapped 
> > him, well that's actually just kind of frightening...
>
> > Allan ref

[RBW] Stone age beeswax

[Glenn Ammons]

Here's an article about beeswax users from the Later Stone Age (almost
45,000 years ago!):

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/342701/title/Sticks%2C_stones_and_bones_reveal_emergence_of_a_hunter-gatherer_culture

--glenn
West Chester, PA, USA

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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[ted]

I can't recommend a bicycling publication, but there is an entire tire
industry and I strongly suspect there has been a fair amount of both
theoretical and experimental work on the rolling resistance of tires
published in scientific and engineering journals.

Decades back I interviewed a tire engineer (school project) who told
me that increasing the pressure in a tire only decreases the rolling
resistance up to a point, after that it increases. The short
explanation for that was compression losses in the very high pressure
contact patch. He also told me road surface had a very large roll in
rolling resistance, and he offered a rule of thumb along the lines of:
the tire with the lowest rolling resistance is usually the one
operating at the lowest fraction of its rated load capacity.

On Aug 7, 1:30 pm, Brian Hanson  wrote:
> I would be interested in recommendations of another cycling periodical that
> has a more rigorous approach.  Most bike mags I've read give a cursory
> glorifying review of all bikes/components, and are certainly no more than
> quick opinion pieces.  I've found BQ to be better for me in that Jan is an
> enthusiast that comes to the sport from a different angle (long distance
> riding) and appreciates a more sporty ride, but has an appreciation for
> aesthetics as well.  I like that he has an opinion.  Most journalists
> either don't, or won't.
>
> Brian
> Seattle, WA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:10 AM,  wrote:
> > You would have to show me some pretty rigorous tests to prove that across
> > the board, stuff = slow. I LOVE BQ and all that it does for cycling, both
> > technically and culturally, but I have yet to see tests that strike me as
> > being rigorous enough to assert anything from them as an axiom or anything
> > more than a anecdotally observed theory.
>
> > Justin, in Philly
>
> > --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Peter Morgano]

Oy, this conversation is frustrating to read.  I like Jan's blog but to say
that those are "experiments" or "scientific" is not really all that
accurate, take for example this page with speed testing for car tires
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/upgradetire/econ/TireUpgradeII.html a
study like that probably cost millions to conduct but it is just for
industry gurus and race car drivers. it is the same for wind resistance and
modeling for cars to test for speed, millions of dollars each year. The
thing is Most car drivers like most bike riders just want something round
that doesnt wear out too fast, I bet if you asked 10 riders out there what
size they were running only half would have any idea and they are happy
riding them!  I appreciate Jan's observations and his tests for what they
are, an expert opinion on a product. If I get I set of tires and I dont
like them I am out the cost of shipping to sell them to someone else or at
most the cost of the tires, not a big loss in the grand scheme of bike-dom
and maybe you get a set you love and use for thousands of miles you never
would have used if not for a review on BQ.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:06 PM, ted  wrote:

> Steve,
>
> I am sorry but I won't spend time culling for quotes with citations.
> Clearly "stiffer" and "faster" are objective terms regardless of who
> uses them.
> From reading the section of Jan's blog referenced at the start of this
> thread (the post and associated comments) my impression is that he is
> convinced a bike built with the right amount of flexibility is faster
> than a stiffer one because of it's greater flexibility (or
> equivalently the others greater stiffness), that bikes built with
> oversized tubes are usually or almost always too stiff in this
> respect, and that a bike that is too stiff is a poor (subjective term
> there) performance bike because its excess stiffness makes it slower
> than a properly designed (subjective term there) bike with the right
> flex.
> From posts in this thread I conclude he has demonstrated this effect
> experimentally and does not consider it a matter of opinion.
>
> If I have misconstrued his meaning I certainly regret it.
> Please consider anything I have written about what he thinks or writes
> retracted.
>
> On Aug 7, 11:14 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 21:42 -0700, ted wrote:
> > > Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over
> > > whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff
> > > enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I
> > > think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right
> > > flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good
> > > "performance" bike.
> >
> > Citation, please.
>
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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Brian Campbell]

OMG!  Someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from this thread! It makes 
me want to sell all of my bikes and buy an SUV!

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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[ted]

Steve,

I am sorry but I won't spend time culling for quotes with citations.
Clearly "stiffer" and "faster" are objective terms regardless of who
uses them.
>From reading the section of Jan's blog referenced at the start of this
thread (the post and associated comments) my impression is that he is
convinced a bike built with the right amount of flexibility is faster
than a stiffer one because of it's greater flexibility (or
equivalently the others greater stiffness), that bikes built with
oversized tubes are usually or almost always too stiff in this
respect, and that a bike that is too stiff is a poor (subjective term
there) performance bike because its excess stiffness makes it slower
than a properly designed (subjective term there) bike with the right
flex.
>From posts in this thread I conclude he has demonstrated this effect
experimentally and does not consider it a matter of opinion.

If I have misconstrued his meaning I certainly regret it.
Please consider anything I have written about what he thinks or writes
retracted.

On Aug 7, 11:14 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 21:42 -0700, ted wrote:
> > Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over
> > whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff
> > enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I
> > think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right
> > flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good
> > "performance" bike.
>
> Citation, please.

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[RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Marty]

Fantastic bike. Can't wait to see it with graphics. What ever happened to 
GP's idea for a grab-on strap or some such device above the bottom bracket? 
I thought it might show up on this one, not that it seems naked or 
anything. 

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[RBW] Re: Sackville Large Saddle Bag (Black) & Nitto Saddle Bag Quick Release For Sale

[Brian Campbell]

Forgot to add O.B.O for the bag. Not looking for trades though. Need cash>

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 19:39 -0500, Eric Platt wrote:
> Regarding "wider is faster" - first reference Bicycle Quartery Volume
> 4, Number 1 page 43 "I have found that lightweight, wide, supple tires
> at lower pressure are at least as fast as less supple tires at higher
> pressures."
> Bicycle Quarterly Volume 5, Number 1, page 23 "2. Wider tires are
> faster" 
> Bicycle Quarterly Volume 9, Number 1, page 63 "For example, in our
> real-road testing of tire performance, we found that wider tires, run
> at lower pressures, can be as fast as (if not faster than) narrow
> tires at ultral-high pressure." (Citing the test in Volume 5, Number
> one above.)
>  
> So, yes, I guess no one ever said wider tires are faster. 


Look down, Eric.  The 'claim' was "wider is ALWAYS faster."  Your
quotations demonstrate that claim was not made.


>  
>  
> I really need something better to do with my time.

Accuracy counts when you are quoting someone.



>  
> Eric Platt
> St. Paul, MN
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Steve Palincsar 
> wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:37 -0500, Eric Platt wrote:
> > Now, I don't ride fast.  And because of that, rarely ride
> with others.
> > And the skinniest tire I have is a 700x37.  But if wider is
> always
> > faster, then the Surly Moonlander with the 4.5 inch wide,
> incredibly
> > supple tires must the the fastest bike out there.
> 
> 
> Nobody has ever made either claim.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[RayO]

I just rode my 28 year old Pinnarello 70 miles...my Ford is 7 years
old.


On Aug 6, 4:53 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 01:56 -0700, Matt Beebe wrote:
> > Bicycles are open, while modern automobiles are black, disposable
> > boxes.
>
> How long do most riders keep the same bicycle?  Looking at folks I know
> in the bike clubs I belong to, I get the feeling people keep their cars
> longer than their bicycles.

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RE: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Marc Schwartz]

OT, BABY

Eric,
practice your guitar picking! that time is always well spent.

Regards, 
Marc "searching the desert for the blues" *

Riv content; riding the bike and playing guitar at the same time.whats 
the best front end geometry for this?

*Willie McTell

OTAY!  -Stymie

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on 
behalf of Eric Platt [epericmpl...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:39 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan 
Heine's blog

Regarding "wider is faster" - first reference Bicycle Quartery Volume 4, Number 
1 page 43 "I have found that lightweight, wide, supple tires at lower pressure 
are at least as fast as less supple tires at higher pressures."
Bicycle Quarterly Volume 5, Number 1, page 23 "2. Wider tires are faster"
Bicycle Quarterly Volume 9, Number 1, page 63 "For example, in our real-road 
testing of tire performance, we found that wider tires, run at lower pressures, 
can be as fast as (if not faster than) narrow tires at ultral-high pressure." 
(Citing the test in Volume 5, Number one above.)

So, yes, I guess no one ever said wider tires are faster.

I really need something better to do with my time.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Steve Palincsar 
mailto:palin...@his.com>> wrote:
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:37 -0500, Eric Platt wrote:
> Now, I don't ride fast.  And because of that, rarely ride with others.
> And the skinniest tire I have is a 700x37.  But if wider is always
> faster, then the Surly Moonlander with the 4.5 inch wide, incredibly
> supple tires must the the fastest bike out there.

Nobody has ever made either claim.



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RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

But thinking about putting on a set of brown Delta Cruisers (at around 37mm) to 
make the fender fit a little less iffy. 

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Allingham II, Thomas J
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 8:36 PM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

700C.  47mm Marathons mounted. 

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Marc Schwartz
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 8:08 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

What is the wheel size on "easy rider"?

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on 
behalf of Allingham II, Thomas J [thomas.alling...@skadden.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 4:45 PM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Actually, Grant told me that all the colors were going to be different.  But I 
haven't heard what colors others are.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bernard
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:45 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Yep, they scored on the color, but I wish it had a creme headtube. I also wish 
I had jumped on this opportunity at the time. I love this bike! The laid-back, 
stretched-out frame; the no-front-derailer; the horizintal drops allowing for 
an IGH; the diagatubes..it's a Rivendell chopper, and it's very cool.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:09:39 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Nope on the color -- we had no input.  But I was right to have faith in Walnut 
Creek -- it's beautiful.


From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Matt Beebe
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:08 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this one.Did 
you pick that color?Looks good.



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Eric Platt]

Regarding "wider is faster" - first reference Bicycle Quartery Volume 4,
Number 1 page 43 "I have found that lightweight, wide, supple tires at
lower pressure are at least as fast as less supple tires at higher
pressures."
Bicycle Quarterly Volume 5, Number 1, page 23 "2. Wider tires are faster"
Bicycle Quarterly Volume 9, Number 1, page 63 "For example, in our
real-road testing of tire performance, we found that wider tires, run at
lower pressures, can be as fast as (if not faster than) narrow tires at
ultral-high pressure." (Citing the test in Volume 5, Number one above.)

So, yes, I guess no one ever said wider tires are faster.

I really need something better to do with my time.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:37 -0500, Eric Platt wrote:
> > Now, I don't ride fast.  And because of that, rarely ride with others.
> > And the skinniest tire I have is a 700x37.  But if wider is always
> > faster, then the Surly Moonlander with the 4.5 inch wide, incredibly
> > supple tires must the the fastest bike out there.
>
> Nobody has ever made either claim.
>
>
>
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RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

700C.  47mm Marathons mounted. 

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Marc Schwartz
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 8:08 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

What is the wheel size on "easy rider"?

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on 
behalf of Allingham II, Thomas J [thomas.alling...@skadden.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 4:45 PM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Actually, Grant told me that all the colors were going to be different.  But I 
haven't heard what colors others are.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bernard
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:45 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Yep, they scored on the color, but I wish it had a creme headtube. I also wish 
I had jumped on this opportunity at the time. I love this bike! The laid-back, 
stretched-out frame; the no-front-derailer; the horizintal drops allowing for 
an IGH; the diagatubes..it's a Rivendell chopper, and it's very cool.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:09:39 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Nope on the color -- we had no input.  But I was right to have faith in Walnut 
Creek -- it's beautiful.


From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Matt Beebe
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:08 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this one.Did 
you pick that color?Looks good.



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


--


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[RBW] Re: Sackville Large Saddle Bag (Black) & Nitto Saddle Bag Quick Release For Sale

[Brian Campbell]

Nitto Quick release SOLD! Thanks!

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 8:02:35 PM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:
>
> Selling my Sackville Large saddle bag as I never really used it. It is 
> from the first run, black & stamped #005. It is in great shape a bit dusty 
> from sitting. All of the leather has been treated w/ Obenauf's and the 
> original paper work is included. 
>
> $195 Shipped to lower 48
>
> http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194506.jpg
> http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194535.jpg
> http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194630.jpg
> http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194735.jpg
>
> Nitto Saddle bag quick release, mounted but not used $70.
>
> Paypal preferred. Thanks Brian
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: I've got a project bike. Do you want to do the conversion, or should I?

[William]

Thanks Garth very much for the info and the link.  

I already have a 56cm Bombadil.  :)  Doing the conversion will just be for 
fun.  The more I put into the less likely I'd sell it.  I floated it 
because our PTA could use the dollars, and the event where we'll sell this 
won't be until next spring.  

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 4:46:46 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
> You have a 1985 Sport model William. 
>  http://mombat.org/Specialized_Specs.htm 
> http://mombat.org/MOMBAT/BikeHistoryPages/Specialized.html
>
>  It's a little better riding than the pre-85 models that used a dreadful 
> 67 degree head angle.  Your is 70.   
> I owned a '83 Sport that I bought in back then and kept up until last 
> year.  The ride was poor due to the head angle.  But , yours should be much 
> improved, so it could be alright for a touring bike.  A Bombadil ... it 
> ain't  lol.   I have one  and the comparisons are not even close.  
> Everything is better . Not to say your Sport won't be fine for you , it's 
> all subjective. 
>
> If you want to sell it ... leave it as is !  A used '85 isn't going to get 
> you a ton of cash... so spending money on it makes no sense if selling it.  
> I noticed however, that these has those Specialized Cranks  these were 
> prone to cracking inside the spider like Campy cranks.  
>
> If you want to keep it to play with, do it because you LOVE the bike ... 
> not because you want to sell it as you're gonna lose $$ on it then. 
>
> Either way .. have fun :)
>

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RE: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Marc Schwartz]

Howabout a banana Brooks and Nitto monkey bars?! I'm 9 years old again!!

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on 
behalf of Leslie [leslie.bri...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:01 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 7:17:15 PM UTC-4, Peter Pesce wrote:
Ooh! Will Riv get someone to make a new version of a suicide shifter? I'd 
absolutely LOVE a Silver Suicide Shifter for my QB!

Pete (shiftless in CT)

Oh, I like that idea...


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[RBW] Re: Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[NickBull]

Enjoyed your blog entry.  Last time I was in the market for a new mirror I 
looked for the Hubub but they were out of stock.  It looks like a good 
mirror.  But the TakeALook does a fine job.

Sometimes I'll be walking down the street at night and hear footsteps 
coming up behind me and wish I were wearing my mirror.

Hope you're both recovered by now.

Nick
On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:16:03 PM UTC-4, SteveD wrote:
>
> Agreed, Nick. MIrrors are great. 
> http://pathlesspedaled.com/2012/03/gear-reflecting-about-cycling-mirrors/
>
> I typically ride with a mirror attached to my shades to point that having 
> used it for so many years that on the very rare occasions, like the other 
> day, when I don't use it I still ride like I'm wearing, if you know what I 
> mean. And actually, I had loaned my wife my shades that day. She wasn't 
> using the mirror, but I did see her do a quick look over her shoulder. I 
> think the person on the other bike was coming up so fast that it didn't 
> register with my wife. It certainly didn't with me, and I'm pretty tuned 
> into traffic noise.
>
> Yep, MUPs can be like the wild west; it's safer to ride on city streets, 
> that's if you're obeying the traffic laws, riding with the flow of traffic, 
> being predictable. Riding on a MUP that are congested are highly 
> unpredictable where riding slow and being mindful of all the various 
> situations that might occur really is sensible. As for the other rider not 
> seeing and estimating what was ahead of her, all I can say is that she was 
> totally oblivious of her environment or completely blind. 
>
> Sometimes my wife calls me the bike Nazi because I get a little uptight 
> about people who ride their bikes without an iota of common sense, like 
> riding in the opposite direction against traffic or bombing down a crowded 
> trail in their racing costumes. And I know I'm no saint, but I at least try 
> to use some common sense when riding in mixed traffic situations, i.e., 
> cars and pedestrians. 
>
> Anyway, mirrors make life on a bike more comfortable in my opinion. They 
> may look funny when worn on a helmet or shades. But their worth it.
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:25:09 AM UTC-7, NickBull wrote:
>>
>> Too bad about the crash.  All the bike trails I've ever been on seem to 
>> be like the wild west -- no law enforcement whatsoever.  It's everyone for 
>> themselves, so the only way to survive is to have maximum situational 
>> awareness, know where everyone is around you both ahead and behind, and 
>> ride as though everyone around you will do something stupid.  Clearly the 
>> pedestrians were wrong to be three abreast because it causes a hazard.  
>> Clearly the bike that passed without warning was wrong to do so, though 
>> they may not have been aware of the pedestrians ahead of you.  
>>
>> But if you were wearing a mirror and took a glance in it the instant you 
>> saw the pedestrians (to check on whether anyone is coming up behind), then 
>> another glance just before you're going to move over (to check that the 
>> coast is still clear), and a final look over your shoulder to double-check 
>> the instant before you move over, then it is almost impossible to have had 
>> this develop into an accident.  You might have had to brake hard when you 
>> glanced in the mirror and saw someone coming up fast.  But at that stage 
>> you still would have had time to brake safely.
>>
>> I had almost the opposite incident happen to me the other day.  A woman 
>> passed me (safely) but then slowed down somewhat so we were going the same 
>> speed.  I was about fifteen or twenty feet behind her because I don't like 
>> to ride close to people who I don't know.  This continued for about half a 
>> mile.  As we were coming up on a pedestrian, I moved to the left well 
>> before she did, still fifteen or twenty feet back.  At the last moment, she 
>> glanced over her shoulder, saw me, and slammed on her brakes and cursed me, 
>> presumably thinking I was trying to pass her.  All of this drama would have 
>> been totally unnecessary if she had been wearing a mirror.  Had she been 
>> wearing a mirror, then after she passed me, she would have seen that she 
>> wasn't dropping me, but that I was behind her at a safe distance and she 
>> had plenty of clearance to move left.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Monday, August 6, 2012 1:58:16 PM UTC-4, SteveD wrote:
>>>
>>> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, 
>>> riding defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use 
>>> paths), which brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the 
>>> Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in 
>>> Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the 
>>> trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with 
>>> dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's 
>>> no denying that because one way or another, a

RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Marc Schwartz]

What is the wheel size on "easy rider"?

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on 
behalf of Allingham II, Thomas J [thomas.alling...@skadden.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 4:45 PM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Actually, Grant told me that all the colors were going to be different.  But I 
haven't heard what colors others are.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bernard
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:45 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Yep, they scored on the color, but I wish it had a creme headtube. I also wish 
I had jumped on this opportunity at the time. I love this bike! The laid-back, 
stretched-out frame; the no-front-derailer; the horizintal drops allowing for 
an IGH; the diagatubes..it's a Rivendell chopper, and it's very cool.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:09:39 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Nope on the color -- we had no input.  But I was right to have faith in Walnut 
Creek -- it's beautiful.


From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Matt Beebe
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:08 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this one.Did 
you pick that color?Looks good.



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


--


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message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the 
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[RBW] Sackville Large Saddle Bag (Black) & Nitto Saddle Bag Quick Release For Sale

[Brian Campbell]

Selling my Sackville Large saddle bag as I never really used it. It is from 
the first run, black & stamped #005. It is in great shape a bit dusty from 
sitting. All of the leather has been treated w/ Obenauf's and the original 
paper work is included. 

$195 Shipped to lower 48

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194506.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194535.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194630.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/IMG_20120807_194735.jpg

Nitto Saddle bag quick release, mounted but not used $70.

Paypal preferred. Thanks Brian


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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Leslie]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 7:17:15 PM UTC-4, Peter Pesce wrote:
>
> Ooh! Will Riv get someone to make a new version of a suicide shifter? I'd 
> absolutely LOVE a Silver Suicide Shifter for my QB!
>
> Pete (shiftless in CT)
>
Oh, I like that idea...   

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Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Leslie]

Ah, true   thought I'd gleaned a lead there...  tut tut...  




On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 7:55:51 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
>
>  Might be Protovelo, no?
>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Might be Protovelo, no?


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leslie
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:52 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

So the new bike's name begins with a P?



On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:12 PM, grant > wrote:
Meant to put a decal on it. Will send  one out, Tom! It's a top-mount decal, 
tough enough for no clear coat.
Clean the top of the diagatuve (we I generally put 'em, but you have a choice 
now). Put the P about 17cm behind the edge of the diagalug. THere's a youtube 
RIVID on how to apply decals.
Rub it hard with the side of a Sharpie or a screwdriver handle (assuming it's 
smooth plastic, not a double-duty screwdriver with a sandpaper handle). Let it 
sit a while. Warm it with your hands. Rub some more, and gently peel it off. 
Most of is should self-lift off. If when you peel it, some letter comes up too, 
lay 'er back down and rub more over that one spot. It may be the corner of the 
six corners on an L.
The key is thorough rubbing and patience. Rub, leave it for five minutes. Rub 
more where the clear part's still sticking, and leave for another five. Go 
watch TV. Rub more, leave, rub more, and  it'll be ready then.

A pro can do it all in three minutes, but I find the rub-n-leave-n-repeat 
method works for me.

G


On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:11:53 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


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Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Leslie]

So the new bike's name begins with a P?



On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:12 PM, grant >wrote:
>
>> Meant to put a decal on it. Will send  one out, Tom! It's a top-mount 
>> decal, tough enough for no clear coat.
>> Clean the top of the diagatuve (we I generally put 'em, but you have a 
>> choice now). Put the P about 17cm behind the edge of the diagalug. THere's 
>> a youtube RIVID on how to apply decals. 
>> Rub it hard with the side of a Sharpie or a screwdriver handle (assuming 
>> it's smooth plastic, not a double-duty screwdriver with a sandpaper 
>> handle). Let it sit a while. Warm it with your hands. Rub some more, and 
>> gently peel it off. Most of is should self-lift off. If when you peel it, 
>> some letter comes up too, lay 'er back down and rub more over that one 
>> spot. It may be the corner of the six corners on an L. 
>> The key is thorough rubbing and patience. Rub, leave it for five minutes. 
>> Rub more where the clear part's still sticking, and leave for another five. 
>> Go watch TV. Rub more, leave, rub more, and  it'll be ready then.
>>
>> A pro can do it all in three minutes, but I find the rub-n-leave-n-repeat 
>> method works for me.
>>
>> G
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:11:53 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>>
>>> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic... 
>>>
>>> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want! 
>>>
>>>
>>> --**--**--
>>>  
>>>
>>> ** 
>>>
>>> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
>>> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice 
>>> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and 
>>> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under 
>>> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions 
>>> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any 
>>> tax-related matters addressed herein. 
>>> ** 
>>> ** 
>>>
>>> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
>>> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
>>> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
>>> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
>>> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. 
>>> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 
>>> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any 
>>> email) and any printout thereof. 
>>>
>>> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
>>> professional qualifications will be provided upon request. 
>>> ** 
>>> ==**==**==
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>  -- 
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> **
> “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America 
> that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I 
> love.”
>
>

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[RBW] Re: I've got a project bike. Do you want to do the conversion, or should I?

[Garth]

You have a 1985 Sport model William. 
 http://mombat.org/Specialized_Specs.htm 
http://mombat.org/MOMBAT/BikeHistoryPages/Specialized.html

 It's a little better riding than the pre-85 models that used a dreadful 67 
degree head angle.  Your is 70.   
I owned a '83 Sport that I bought in back then and kept up until last 
year.  The ride was poor due to the head angle.  But , yours should be much 
improved, so it could be alright for a touring bike.  A Bombadil ... it 
ain't  lol.   I have one  and the comparisons are not even close.  
Everything is better . Not to say your Sport won't be fine for you , it's 
all subjective. 

If you want to sell it ... leave it as is !  A used '85 isn't going to get 
you a ton of cash... so spending money on it makes no sense if selling it.  
I noticed however, that these has those Specialized Cranks  these were 
prone to cracking inside the spider like Campy cranks.  

If you want to keep it to play with, do it because you LOVE the bike ... 
not because you want to sell it as you're gonna lose $$ on it then. 

Either way .. have fun :)

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[RBW] Re: fs: Platrack + Slickersack (olive)

[Eric]

Slickersack is SOLD.

Platrack remains.

Thanks!


On Aug 6, 8:33 pm, Eric  wrote:
> For sale... (1) Nitto Platrack for sale. Struts are uncut & mounting
> hardwear is included.
>
> (2) Slickersack in Olive. New, never used.
>
> I purchased both when they were clearing them out. I never used the bag but
> the rack I mounted.
>
> Each are $115 shipped from Chicago,IL
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/9kn5tha
> **http://tinyurl.com/8dnhfzj*

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RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Thanks, Grant -- a new skill!  Looking forward to it.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of grant
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:13 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Meant to put a decal on it. Will send  one out, Tom! It's a top-mount decal, 
tough enough for no clear coat.
Clean the top of the diagatuve (we I generally put 'em, but you have a choice 
now). Put the P about 17cm behind the edge of the diagalug. THere's a youtube 
RIVID on how to apply decals.
Rub it hard with the side of a Sharpie or a screwdriver handle (assuming it's 
smooth plastic, not a double-duty screwdriver with a sandpaper handle). Let it 
sit a while. Warm it with your hands. Rub some more, and gently peel it off. 
Most of is should self-lift off. If when you peel it, some letter comes up too, 
lay 'er back down and rub more over that one spot. It may be the corner of the 
six corners on an L.
The key is thorough rubbing and patience. Rub, leave it for five minutes. Rub 
more where the clear part's still sticking, and leave for another five. Go 
watch TV. Rub more, leave, rub more, and  it'll be ready then.

A pro can do it all in three minutes, but I find the rub-n-leave-n-repeat 
method works for me.

G

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:11:53 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


--


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unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this 
message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the 
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or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or 
recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.



This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
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===

RE: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Peter Pesce]

Ooh! Will Riv get someone to make a new version of a suicide shifter? I'd 
absolutely LOVE a Silver Suicide Shifter for my QB!

Pete (shiftless in CT)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[cyclotourist]

O, Rivendell custom headbadge... nice!

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:12 PM, grant  wrote:

> Meant to put a decal on it. Will send  one out, Tom! It's a top-mount
> decal, tough enough for no clear coat.
> Clean the top of the diagatuve (we I generally put 'em, but you have a
> choice now). Put the P about 17cm behind the edge of the diagalug. THere's
> a youtube RIVID on how to apply decals.
> Rub it hard with the side of a Sharpie or a screwdriver handle (assuming
> it's smooth plastic, not a double-duty screwdriver with a sandpaper
> handle). Let it sit a while. Warm it with your hands. Rub some more, and
> gently peel it off. Most of is should self-lift off. If when you peel it,
> some letter comes up too, lay 'er back down and rub more over that one
> spot. It may be the corner of the six corners on an L.
> The key is thorough rubbing and patience. Rub, leave it for five minutes.
> Rub more where the clear part's still sticking, and leave for another five.
> Go watch TV. Rub more, leave, rub more, and  it'll be ready then.
>
> A pro can do it all in three minutes, but I find the rub-n-leave-n-repeat
> method works for me.
>
> G
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:11:53 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...
>>
>> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!
>>
>>
>> --**--**--
>>
>> **
>>
>> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you
>> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice
>> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and
>> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under
>> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions
>> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any
>> tax-related matters addressed herein.
>> **
>> **
>>
>> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the
>> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or
>> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this
>> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
>> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited.
>> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212)
>> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any
>> email) and any printout thereof.
>>
>> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their
>> professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
>> **
>> ==**==**==
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>  --
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Redlands, CA

**
“I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America
that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I
love.”

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[RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[grant]

Meant to put a decal on it. Will send  one out, Tom! It's a top-mount 
decal, tough enough for no clear coat.
Clean the top of the diagatuve (we I generally put 'em, but you have a 
choice now). Put the P about 17cm behind the edge of the diagalug. THere's 
a youtube RIVID on how to apply decals. 
Rub it hard with the side of a Sharpie or a screwdriver handle (assuming 
it's smooth plastic, not a double-duty screwdriver with a sandpaper 
handle). Let it sit a while. Warm it with your hands. Rub some more, and 
gently peel it off. Most of is should self-lift off. If when you peel it, 
some letter comes up too, lay 'er back down and rub more over that one 
spot. It may be the corner of the six corners on an L. 
The key is thorough rubbing and patience. Rub, leave it for five minutes. 
Rub more where the clear part's still sticking, and leave for another five. 
Go watch TV. Rub more, leave, rub more, and  it'll be ready then.

A pro can do it all in three minutes, but I find the rub-n-leave-n-repeat 
method works for me.

G

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:11:53 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic... 
>
> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want! 
>
>
> --
>  
>
>  
>
> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice 
> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and 
> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under 
> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions 
> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any 
> tax-related matters addressed herein. 
>  
>  
>
> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. 
> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 
> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any 
> email) and any printout thereof. 
>
> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
> professional qualifications will be provided upon request. 
>  
> ==
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

One of my pet peeves is the oft-stated/implied claim that Surly somehow 
ripped off (or "replicated") Riv designs. A quick look at the Surly website 
or catalog shows that they have numerous models that are far outside the 
realm of what is offered by Riv, and in fact Surly has led the way in 
producing entirely new genres of bicycles (cargo bikes, fat bikes, etc). 
Moreover, all of Surly's more "traditional" Riv-comparable models 
(Cross-check, LHT, Pacer) are not identical to the corresponding Riv 
models. There's no doubt in my mind that ALL bike designers, even Grant, 
borrow ideas from others, but to directly or backhandedly state that Surly 
is basically a Riv-clone with corners cut for cost savings is untrue and 
unfair to the good and creative people who design Surly products.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:28:52 AM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> On Aug 6, 7:37 pm, ted  wrote: 
> > Jan writes: "It would be easy for Rivendell to sell TIG-welded frames" 
> > 
> >  I think Grant has said that Riv would not be 
> > successful selling such bikes because other larger well established 
> > firms with cost advantages are already covering that. 
>
> When you look at Surly's success with taking many Rivendell designs 
> and ideas and replicating them in TIG, it seems that there is a very 
> ready market for those bikes. Knowing the economics of the bike 
> business, I suspect that the Surly brand is more profitable than 
> Grant's bike lines. But I also suspect that Grant doesn't care - he 
> makes the bikes he makes not because they are the most profitable, but 
> because they are the bikes he loves. 
>
> Jan Heine 
> Editor 
> Bicycle Quarterly 
> http://www.bikequarterly.com/ 
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Actually, Grant told me that all the colors were going to be different.  But I 
haven't heard what colors others are.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bernard
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:45 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Yep, they scored on the color, but I wish it had a creme headtube. I also wish 
I had jumped on this opportunity at the time. I love this bike! The laid-back, 
stretched-out frame; the no-front-derailer; the horizintal drops allowing for 
an IGH; the diagatubes..it's a Rivendell chopper, and it's very cool.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:09:39 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Nope on the color -- we had no input.  But I was right to have faith in Walnut 
Creek -- it's beautiful.


From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Beebe
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:08 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this one.Did 
you pick that color?Looks good.



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


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Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Joe Bernard]

Yep, they scored on the color, but I wish it had a creme headtube. I also 
wish I had jumped on this opportunity at the time. I love this bike! The 
laid-back, stretched-out frame; the no-front-derailer; the horizintal drops 
allowing for an IGH; the diagatubes..it's a Rivendell chopper, and it's 
very cool. 
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:09:39 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:

>  Nope on the color -- we had no input.  But I was right to have faith in 
> Walnut Creek -- it's beautiful.
>
>  --
> *From:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com  [mailto:
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *Matt Beebe
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:08 PM
> *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
> *Subject:* [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!
>
>  Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this 
> one.Did you pick that color?Looks good.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote: 
>>
>> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic... 
>>
>> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want! 
>>
>>
>> --
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
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RE: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Nope on the color -- we had no input.  But I was right to have faith in Walnut 
Creek -- it's beautiful.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Beebe
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:08 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this one.Did 
you pick that color?Looks good.



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...

No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!


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[RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Matt Beebe]

Looks great man.They should revive the long low name for this one.
Did you pick that color?Looks good.



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:11:53 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:
>
> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic... 
>
> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want! 
>
>
> --
>  
>
>  
>
> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice 
> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and 
> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under 
> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions 
> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any 
> tax-related matters addressed herein. 
>  
>  
>
> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
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>  
> ==
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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[RBW] Re: Riding mixed surf in NW Portland if anyone's interested

[Allan in Portland]

I won't be able to meet-up, but I tell all my customers to ride up to the 
tram and take in the city and skyline from the observation deck. Bikes are 
welcomed, it's free to ride down and it lands at a great bike path for 
getting back to the city.

I'd think the Velo-cult guys should know how to get there, though they are 
somewhat new to town; so if not, drop me a line if you need help figuring 
it out. It's a bit of a climb, but short. Unless, maybe you're from east 
Texas or Florida.

Regards,
-Allan

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:27:19 PM UTC-7, James Warren wrote:
>
> Portland listmbers, 
>
> Visiting Portland, Oregon. Enjoying a drink at Velo Cult as i type this. 
> Staying in NW city. Gonna head out to Forest Park this evening and/or 
> tomorrow morn for a nice little ride. Contact me off list if interested in 
> joining. 
>
> - Jim W. 
>
> Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Allan in Portland]

There's no polite way to put this, so I'm replying to myself. Many of these 
arrow slingers come across as absolute trolls.  They don't sub to the mag, 
have missed major points written in the blog and/or emails and then come up 
with ridiculous strawman arguments as they take pot shots at what Jan's 
written.

Consider tires for one.

1) He's already said casing is the number one factor in tire performance
2) He's already compared 20-23-25 widths of the same make of tire
3) He's lamented that there aren't very many tires available to make 
comparisons only varying the widths.
4) He's already written there is logically going to be a fall-off in 
performance of ever increasing widths, but it clearly ain't in the 20's or 
lower 30's mm
5) He's already written that wider tires need balanced with smaller rims, 
hence the preference for 650B
6) There's probably a half dozen more not worth my effort to think of at 
the moment.

It would not be so bad if the skeptics came across with honest & earnest 
questions, but they don't. They come up with accusations and what seem to 
me are bad faith arguments putting words into Jan's writing that simply 
aren't there. And that's why I'm calling them trolls.

That's my peace,
-Allan

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Matthew J]

> A genius, no doubt, but let's see him launch a spacecraft from earth, put 
a man on the moon, and return him safely to earth. 
 
No doubt the engineers responsible for Curiosity's perfect Mars landing did 
any number of controlled instrument experiments.  Nevertheless, they all 
say the time spent doing real life testing in the Atacama desert and other 
Mars like was critical to getting the equipment and landing sequence 
correct.
 
Tire makers with the money to do elaborate testing nonetheless stick 
to rolling tires in a barrel.  Fine, I guess, for those of us who ride 
bikes in a barrel.  Jan at least had the sense to do some real road 
testing.   
Interestingly, tire width is being discussed over at the Velocipedesalon.  
Someone there quotes an engineer from Zip wheels who in turn cites a late 
19th Century British study on train wheels as being one of the only 
authoratative tests on wheel width and rolling resistance.  The engineer 
said that while wider has less resistance, the improvement diminishes the 
wider the tire.  Going from 20 to 25 is significant.  25 to 30 not as 
much.  This is not all that different from what Jan's results show.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:03:58 PM UTC-5, z-man wrote:

> Believe what you want to believe. If Galileo were the last word on 
> science, it would have gone no further. A genius, no doubt, but let's see 
> him launch a spacecraft from earth, put a man on the moon, and return him 
> safely to earth. 
>
> Ever see the old Roman distance markers on some European roads?  Pretty 
> accurate. But those same distances have been made more precise with modern 
> measuring devices. 
>
> To take that a step further, every piece of property ( in the Northeast) 
> was surveyed in the 1700's and given it's dimensions. If modern methods 
> were used to confirm this now, it is estimated that +/- 12% of landowners 
> would end up with zip. 
>
> If modern measuring devices were no better they wouldn't have been 
> invented. 
>
> RGZ 
>
> Sent from my iPad 
>
> On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote: 
>
> > On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 11:43 -0700, Anne Paulson wrote: 
> >> So then if you timed me and Bradley Wiggins on the same course, with a 
> >> stopwatch, you couldn't tell that he was faster, because maybe you 
> >> weren't quite accurate with the stopwatch?  No, you could easily tell, 
> >> because the tiny difference in the stopwatch pressing would be 
> >> overwhelmed by the fact that he is twice as fast as I am. 
> >> 
> >> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires, 
> >> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by 
> >> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences 
> >> between slower tires and faster ones. 
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zeidler <
> zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>> Unless you can guarantee no variance in wind speed or direction, 
> however 
> >>> slight, or that the finger depressing the stop watch button at the 
> exact 
> >>> same second, every single time, just to cite two of many variables, 
> what you 
> >>> have is a Boy Scout Merit Badge project, not anything remotely 
> resembling 
> >>> real research. 
> > 
> > And Galileo's experiments were Boy Scout Merit Badge projects too, and 
> > not real science, for the same reason? 
> > 
> > Anne's right.   
> > 
> > 
> > 
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[RBW] Riding mixed surf in NW Portland if anyone's interested

[James Warren]

Portland listmbers,

Visiting Portland, Oregon. Enjoying a drink at Velo Cult as i type this. 
Staying in NW city. Gonna head out to Forest Park this evening and/or tomorrow 
morn for a nice little ride. Contact me off list if interested in joining.

- Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Matthew J]

> Would a hand-made clincher with cotton casing in a 34 mm width be 
> faster yet? We are working on that... 
 
Sounds wonderful.  But for the fact I like my Grand Bois clinchers so much 
I sold my only tubular wheel set for lack of use.


On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:53:49 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:

> On Aug 7, 12:13 pm, Patrick in VT  wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:43:57 PM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote: 
> > 
> > > Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires, 
> > > surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by 
> > > stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences 
> > > between slower tires and faster ones. 
> > 
> > what was the fastest tire (size and width) in Jan's tire testing? 
>
> Using the data published so far, the fastest tire was a hand-made 
> clincher with cotton casing in a 700C x 24 mm (actual) width. However, 
> since that was the only hand-made clincher in the test, it's hard to 
> conclude much from that beyond that hand-made cotton casings are super- 
> fast. (Pro racers have known that for a long time, almost all of them 
> race on hand-made tires with cotton or silk casings.) 
>
> Would a hand-made clincher with cotton casing in a 34 mm width be 
> faster yet? We are working on that... 
>
> Jan Heine 
> Editor 
> Bicycle Quarterly 
> http://janheine.wordpress.com/ 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Brian Hanson]

I would be interested in recommendations of another cycling periodical that
has a more rigorous approach.  Most bike mags I've read give a cursory
glorifying review of all bikes/components, and are certainly no more than
quick opinion pieces.  I've found BQ to be better for me in that Jan is an
enthusiast that comes to the sport from a different angle (long distance
riding) and appreciates a more sporty ride, but has an appreciation for
aesthetics as well.  I like that he has an opinion.  Most journalists
either don't, or won't.

Brian
Seattle, WA

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:10 AM,  wrote:

> You would have to show me some pretty rigorous tests to prove that across
> the board, stuff = slow. I LOVE BQ and all that it does for cycling, both
> technically and culturally, but I have yet to see tests that strike me as
> being rigorous enough to assert anything from them as an axiom or anything
> more than a anecdotally observed theory.
>
> Justin, in Philly
>
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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Brian Hanson]

Let us know how it rides Thomas!  I didn't get a chance to ride the Bosco
when I was in Walnut Creek :(  What is the basic size of the frame, BTW?
It's definitely a unique townie - I would have no problem adding it to the
fleet.  Lovely!

Brian
Seattle, WA

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J <
thomas.alling...@skadden.com> wrote:

> **
> Re B), Grant's idea is to shift the front with a stick. There's a
> description in the Riv Blug on their site.   For the riding I'm planning
> for it, I doubt if I need the second ring in front.  But I'll probably
> leave it, just in case.
>
>  --
> *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Leslie
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:42 PM
>
> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!
>
>  A) I'm jealous; my Bomba's box didn't have any artwork!   ;)
>
> B) Wait, wait waitThat's a double crank, isn't it?? At least a
> double if not a triple;  I thought this bike couldn't take a front
> derailleur?
>
> No Hammershcmitty tab on this critter?
>
> C) It is beautiful.   Enjoy that bike!!!
>
> D) When it transitions to production bike, wonder what the later
> headbadges and decals will be??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:29:09 PM UTC-4, William wrote:
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>  If you mail the box art to me at your expense, I promise to mount it in
>> some fashion at my expense and will display it.  I think you still have my
>> address.
>>
>>  :)  Bill
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:24:26 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>>>
>>>  Can't I just stick it in the spokes?
>>>
>>>  --
>>> *From:* 
>>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**com[mailto:
>>> rbw-owners-bunch@**googlegroups.com ]
>>> *On Behalf Of *William
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:23 PM
>>> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!
>>>
>>>  Can we have a long debate on the manner you should employ to
>>> mount/frame your complementary box art?
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:13:13 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:

 Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto
 big rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install.
  As soon as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you,
 UPS!

 -Original Message-
 From: 
 rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**com[mailto:
 rbw-owners-bunch@**googlegroups.com ]
 On Behalf Of Anne Paulson
 Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**com
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

 OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long
 chainstays, and is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the
 stem? Upright handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle
 chainstays. Yay for the kickstand.

 It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike,
 but would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and
 racks and bags on the rear?

 Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of
 you are going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food
 for the party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too.

 Wonder if it could be made without the top tube.

 On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J <
 thomas.alling...@skadden.com> wrote:
 > Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a
 little quick mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the
 idea, anyway.
 >
 > http://www.flickr.com/photos/**37542512@N04/sets/**72157630957672582/

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 My hovercraft is full of eels

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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 To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise
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 contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and
 cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under
 the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions
 

[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Patrick in VT]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:53:49 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> ...it's hard to conclude much from that beyond that hand-made cotton 
> casings are super- 
> fast. (Pro racers have known that for a long time, almost all of them 
> race on hand-made tires with cotton or silk casings.) 
>
> Would a hand-made clincher with cotton casing in a 34 mm width be 
> faster yet? We are working on that... 
>

ah, that's right.  i knew it was a skinny - the Challenge Tri, right?  
isn't it very possible that fast tires are more about tire casings than it 
is tire width?  GB and Challenge tires have superior casings as far as 
performance goes - it's not surprising that even the wider models of these 
brands perform well in comparison to skinny tires with crap casings.  other 
wide tires certainly do not far as well.

why not do a test with a tire that comes in a range from 25-37mm (Pasela, 
maybe?) and see what comes out ahead - that would taking the casing 
variable out of it.  

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[robert zeidler]

I rest my case. Justin is taking over for me. A high-five and the ring you
go!
On Tuesday, August 7, 2012, wrote:

> Still so many variables there! In order to get a truly scientific test of
> what makes an optimal tire you'd need to produce a variety of tire widths
> using identify casing/tread/etc then several using a single casing and
> several treads in a given width. Then several casings and a single tread at
> a given width. THEN THE BSD. Oh lord, when will it end? Our search for
> scientific bicycling nirvana has brought us to naught!
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:13:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick in VT wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:43:57 PM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
>>> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
>>> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
>>> between slower tires and faster ones.
>>>
>>
>> what was the fastest tire (size and width) in Jan's tire testing?
>>
>  --
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RE: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Re B), Grant's idea is to shift the front with a stick. There's a description 
in the Riv Blug on their site.   For the riding I'm planning for it, I doubt if 
I need the second ring in front.  But I'll probably leave it, just in case.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leslie
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:42 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

A) I'm jealous; my Bomba's box didn't have any artwork!   ;)

B) Wait, wait waitThat's a double crank, isn't it?? At least a double 
if not a triple;  I thought this bike couldn't take a front derailleur?

No Hammershcmitty tab on this critter?

C) It is beautiful.   Enjoy that bike!!!

D) When it transitions to production bike, wonder what the later headbadges and 
decals will be??







On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:29:09 PM UTC-4, William wrote:
Tom

If you mail the box art to me at your expense, I promise to mount it in some 
fashion at my expense and will display it.  I think you still have my address.

:)  Bill

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:24:26 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Can't I just stick it in the spokes?


From: 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com]
 On Behalf Of William
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:23 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

Can we have a long debate on the manner you should employ to mount/frame your 
complementary box art?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:13:13 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto big 
rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install.  As soon 
as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you, UPS!

-Original Message-
From: 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com]
 On Behalf Of Anne Paulson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long chainstays, and 
is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the stem? Upright 
handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle chainstays. Yay for the 
kickstand.

It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike, but 
would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and racks and 
bags on the rear?

Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of you are 
going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food for the 
party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too.

Wonder if it could be made without the top tube.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J 
mailto:thomas.alling...@skadden.com>> wrote:
> Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little quick 
> mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, anyway.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

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To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you that, 
unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this 
message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the 
purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code 
or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or 
recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.



This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
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confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, 
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email in err

[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Jan Heine]

On Aug 7, 12:13 pm, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:43:57 PM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
> > Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
> > surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
> > stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
> > between slower tires and faster ones.
>
> what was the fastest tire (size and width) in Jan's tire testing?

Using the data published so far, the fastest tire was a hand-made
clincher with cotton casing in a 700C x 24 mm (actual) width. However,
since that was the only hand-made clincher in the test, it's hard to
conclude much from that beyond that hand-made cotton casings are super-
fast. (Pro racers have known that for a long time, almost all of them
race on hand-made tires with cotton or silk casings.)

Would a hand-made clincher with cotton casing in a 34 mm width be
faster yet? We are working on that...

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Seth Vidal]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Anne Paulson  wrote:
> OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long
> chainstays, and is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on
> the stem? Upright handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy
> middle chainstays. Yay for the kickstand.
>
> It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this
> bike, but would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the
> front and racks and bags on the rear?
>
>

And it has horizontal dropouts...

What's going on there?

-sv

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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Leslie]

A) I'm jealous; my Bomba's box didn't have any artwork!   ;)

B) Wait, wait waitThat's a double crank, isn't it?? At least a 
double if not a triple;  I thought this bike couldn't take a front 
derailleur?   

No Hammershcmitty tab on this critter?

C) It is beautiful.   Enjoy that bike!!!

D) When it transitions to production bike, wonder what the later headbadges 
and decals will be??







On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:29:09 PM UTC-4, William wrote:
>
> Tom
>
> If you mail the box art to me at your expense, I promise to mount it in 
> some fashion at my expense and will display it.  I think you still have my 
> address.  
>
> :)  Bill
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:24:26 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>>
>>  Can't I just stick it in the spokes?
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *William
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:23 PM
>> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!
>>
>>  Can we have a long debate on the manner you should employ to 
>> mount/frame your complementary box art?
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:13:13 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote: 
>>>
>>> Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto 
>>> big rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install. 
>>>  As soon as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you, 
>>> UPS! 
>>>
>>> -Original Message- 
>>> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Paulson 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM 
>>> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike! 
>>>
>>> OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long 
>>> chainstays, and is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the 
>>> stem? Upright handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle 
>>> chainstays. Yay for the kickstand. 
>>>
>>> It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike, 
>>> but would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and 
>>> racks and bags on the rear? 
>>>
>>> Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of 
>>> you are going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food 
>>> for the party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too. 
>>>
>>> Wonder if it could be made without the top tube. 
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J <
>>> thomas.alling...@skadden.com> wrote: 
>>> > Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a 
>>> little quick mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the 
>>> idea, anyway. 
>>> > 
>>> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/ 
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -- Anne Paulson 
>>>
>>> My hovercraft is full of eels 
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. 
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
>>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 
>>> For more options, visit this group at 
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. 
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
>>> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice 
>>> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and 
>>> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under 
>>> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions 
>>> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any 
>>> tax-related matters addressed herein. 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
>>> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
>>> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
>>> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
>>> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. 
>>> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 
>>> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any 
>>> email) and any printout thereof. 
>>>
>>> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
>>> professional qualifications will be provided upon request. 
>>>  
>>> ==
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>  -- 
>> You

Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[justinaugust]

Still so many variables there! In order to get a truly scientific test of 
what makes an optimal tire you'd need to produce a variety of tire widths 
using identify casing/tread/etc then several using a single casing and 
several treads in a given width. Then several casings and a single tread at 
a given width. THEN THE BSD. Oh lord, when will it end? Our search for 
scientific bicycling nirvana has brought us to naught!

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:13:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick in VT wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:43:57 PM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
>>
>> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires, 
>> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by 
>> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences 
>> between slower tires and faster ones. 
>>
>
> what was the fastest tire (size and width) in Jan's tire testing?  
>

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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[William]

Tom

If you mail the box art to me at your expense, I promise to mount it in 
some fashion at my expense and will display it.  I think you still have my 
address.  

:)  Bill

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:24:26 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>  Can't I just stick it in the spokes?
>
>  --
> *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *William
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:23 PM
> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!
>
>  Can we have a long debate on the manner you should employ to mount/frame 
> your complementary box art?
>
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:13:13 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote: 
>>
>> Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto 
>> big rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install. 
>>  As soon as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you, 
>> UPS! 
>>
>> -Original Message- 
>> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Paulson 
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM 
>> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike! 
>>
>> OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long 
>> chainstays, and is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the 
>> stem? Upright handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle 
>> chainstays. Yay for the kickstand. 
>>
>> It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike, 
>> but would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and 
>> racks and bags on the rear? 
>>
>> Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of 
>> you are going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food 
>> for the party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too. 
>>
>> Wonder if it could be made without the top tube. 
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J <
>> thomas.alling...@skadden.com> wrote: 
>> > Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little 
>> quick mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, 
>> anyway. 
>> > 
>> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/ 
>>
>> -- 
>> -- Anne Paulson 
>>
>> My hovercraft is full of eels 
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. 
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 
>> For more options, visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. 
>>
>>
>> --
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
>> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice 
>> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and 
>> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under 
>> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions 
>> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any 
>> tax-related matters addressed herein. 
>>  
>>  
>>
>> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
>> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
>> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
>> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
>> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. 
>> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 
>> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any 
>> email) and any printout thereof. 
>>
>> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
>> professional qualifications will be provided upon request. 
>>  
>> ==
>>  
>>
>>
>  -- 
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> --
>  
> **

RE: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Can't I just stick it in the spokes?


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:23 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

Can we have a long debate on the manner you should employ to mount/frame your 
complementary box art?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:13:13 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto big 
rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install.  As soon 
as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you, UPS!

-Original Message-
From: 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com]
 On Behalf Of Anne Paulson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long chainstays, and 
is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the stem? Upright 
handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle chainstays. Yay for the 
kickstand.

It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike, but 
would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and racks and 
bags on the rear?

Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of you are 
going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food for the 
party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too.

Wonder if it could be made without the top tube.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J 
mailto:thomas.alling...@skadden.com>> wrote:
> Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little quick 
> mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, anyway.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[William]

Can we have a long debate on the manner you should employ to mount/frame 
your complementary box art?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:13:13 PM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
> Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto 
> big rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install. 
>  As soon as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you, 
> UPS! 
>
> -Original Message- 
> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Paulson 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM 
> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike! 
>
> OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long chainstays, 
> and is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the stem? Upright 
> handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle chainstays. Yay for 
> the kickstand. 
>
> It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike, 
> but would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and 
> racks and bags on the rear? 
>
> Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of 
> you are going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food 
> for the party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too. 
>
> Wonder if it could be made without the top tube. 
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J <
> thomas.alling...@skadden.com> wrote: 
> > Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little 
> quick mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, 
> anyway. 
> > 
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/ 
>
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson 
>
> My hovercraft is full of eels 
>
> -- 
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>  
>
>  
>
> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Scot Brooks]

Absolute stunner!

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Patrick in VT]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:43:57 PM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:

>
> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires, 
> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by 
> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences 
> between slower tires and faster ones. 
>

what was the fastest tire (size and width) in Jan's tire testing?  

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RE: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Agreed.  I've got Honjo fenders and a Schmidt dynohub wheel and a Nitto big 
rear rack and a Mark's + Platrack for the front, all ready to install.  As soon 
as I get the derailleur hanger and rear drops aligned.  Curse you, UPS!

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Paulson
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:08 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long chainstays, and 
is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on the stem? Upright 
handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy middle chainstays. Yay for the 
kickstand.

It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this bike, but 
would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the front and racks and 
bags on the rear?

Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two of you are 
going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick up food for the 
party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders, too.

Wonder if it could be made without the top tube.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J 
 wrote:
> Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little quick 
> mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, anyway.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Anne Paulson]

OK, now we can see it, what's it for? I see really really long
chainstays, and is there no front derailleur? Is that rear shifter on
the stem? Upright handlebars, diagonal tube with those fun curvy
middle chainstays. Yay for the kickstand.

It looks like lots of carriers are supposed to be mounted on this
bike, but would they be any special carriers, or just a basket on the
front and racks and bags on the rear?

Nice bike. This is the one you lend out to your friends when the two
of you are going down to the brewpub, or to the grocery store to pick
up food for the party. Or on a sub24. Needs builtin lights. Fenders,
too.

Wonder if it could be made without the top tube.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J
 wrote:
> Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little quick 
> mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, anyway.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Robert Zeidler]

Believe what you want to believe. If Galileo were the last word on science, it 
would have gone no further. A genius, no doubt, but let's see him launch a 
spacecraft from earth, put a man on the moon, and return him safely to earth. 

Ever see the old Roman distance markers on some European roads?  Pretty 
accurate. But those same distances have been made more precise with modern 
measuring devices. 

To take that a step further, every piece of property ( in the Northeast) was 
surveyed in the 1700's and given it's dimensions. If modern methods were used 
to confirm this now, it is estimated that +/- 12% of landowners would end up 
with zip. 

If modern measuring devices were no better they wouldn't have been invented. 

RGZ

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 11:43 -0700, Anne Paulson wrote:
>> So then if you timed me and Bradley Wiggins on the same course, with a
>> stopwatch, you couldn't tell that he was faster, because maybe you
>> weren't quite accurate with the stopwatch?  No, you could easily tell,
>> because the tiny difference in the stopwatch pressing would be
>> overwhelmed by the fact that he is twice as fast as I am.
>> 
>> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
>> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
>> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
>> between slower tires and faster ones.
>> 
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zeidler  
>> wrote:
>>> Unless you can guarantee no variance in wind speed or direction, however
>>> slight, or that the finger depressing the stop watch button at the exact
>>> same second, every single time, just to cite two of many variables, what you
>>> have is a Boy Scout Merit Badge project, not anything remotely resembling
>>> real research.
> 
> And Galileo's experiments were Boy Scout Merit Badge projects too, and
> not real science, for the same reason?
> 
> Anne's right.  
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Complaints about bad roads

[Philip Williamson]

Higher tire pressure and less weight on the bike would mean that smaller 
bumps would deflect your course more, right? 
I weight the handlebars more on chattery surfaces to keep the front end 
calm. 

Philip
biketinker.com (today at problemsolversbike.com/blog/)



On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:31:15 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
> Let me clarify: the guys were not complaining about bumpy dirt roads. 
> They did not ride on any dirt roads. They were complaining about paved 
> roads with slight imperfections. 
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Matt Beebe  
> wrote: 
> > I doubt it was because they were using Schwalbes, even if they were 
> marathon 
> > tourguards or whatever.When you are riding on a fully loaded tour 
> with 
> > over 30-40lbs of gear, I don't think a heavier tire with stouter 
> sidewalls 
> > is going to affect handling or shock absorption capability that much. 
> > I think the initial theory a few posts up nailed it:they refused to 
> > lower their tire pressures despite the terrain. In my experience, 
> for 
> > tires over 35mm wide, lowering tire pressures from typical pavement 
> > pressures helps smooth out the bumps significantly, and can be the 
> > difference between barely making forward progress and being able to 
> continue 
> > comfortably at 10mph or more.This is especially true on 'washboard' 
> > roads, where (I have found) a lower PSI can really work like magic.   
>  Of 
> > course, there are other aspects of the bike that can contribute to 
> > offroad/bumpy comfort as well, such as riding position and what not. 
>
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson 
>
> My hovercraft is full of eels 
>

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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Peter Morgano]

Just dont steal his underpants! Apparently when you get so drunk you forgot
where you leave your underwear it is someone elses fault, haha.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Robert Zeidler wrote:

> I would measure the difference between you and Mr  Wiggins and then offer
> to buy him a beer after you smoked him!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Anne Paulson  wrote:
>
> > So then if you timed me and Bradley Wiggins on the same course, with a
> > stopwatch, you couldn't tell that he was faster, because maybe you
> > weren't quite accurate with the stopwatch?  No, you could easily tell,
> > because the tiny difference in the stopwatch pressing would be
> > overwhelmed by the fact that he is twice as fast as I am.
> >
> > Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
> > surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
> > stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
> > between slower tires and faster ones.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zeidler 
> wrote:
> >> Unless you can guarantee no variance in wind speed or direction, however
> >> slight, or that the finger depressing the stop watch button at the exact
> >> same second, every single time, just to cite two of many variables,
> what you
> >> have is a Boy Scout Merit Badge project, not anything remotely
> resembling
> >> real research.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >> On Aug 7, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Philip Williamson <
> philip.william...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Monday, August 6, 2012 5:16:03 PM UTC-7, z-man wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Not talking about a few centimeters. That's never even been suggested.
> I'm
> >>> talking about 12 or 20 mm bigger.
> >>
> >>
> >> I missed the antecedent for this.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You're not going to determine what rolls faster by rolling down a hill
> and
> >>> measuring with a stop watch.
> >>
> >>
> >> I can't think of another method to rank two rolly things except by
> rolling
> >> them, timing the speeds, and comparing the results.
> >>
> >> Genuinely puzzled,
> >> Philip
> >> biketinker.com
> >>
> >> --
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> Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -- Anne Paulson
> >
> > My hovercraft is full of eels
> >
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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Robert Zeidler]

I would measure the difference between you and Mr  Wiggins and then offer to 
buy him a beer after you smoked him!

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Anne Paulson  wrote:

> So then if you timed me and Bradley Wiggins on the same course, with a
> stopwatch, you couldn't tell that he was faster, because maybe you
> weren't quite accurate with the stopwatch?  No, you could easily tell,
> because the tiny difference in the stopwatch pressing would be
> overwhelmed by the fact that he is twice as fast as I am.
> 
> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
> between slower tires and faster ones.
> 
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zeidler  
> wrote:
>> Unless you can guarantee no variance in wind speed or direction, however
>> slight, or that the finger depressing the stop watch button at the exact
>> same second, every single time, just to cite two of many variables, what you
>> have is a Boy Scout Merit Badge project, not anything remotely resembling
>> real research.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Aug 7, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Philip Williamson 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Monday, August 6, 2012 5:16:03 PM UTC-7, z-man wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not talking about a few centimeters. That's never even been suggested. I'm
>>> talking about 12 or 20 mm bigger.
>> 
>> 
>> I missed the antecedent for this.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> You're not going to determine what rolls faster by rolling down a hill and
>>> measuring with a stop watch.
>> 
>> 
>> I can't think of another method to rank two rolly things except by rolling
>> them, timing the speeds, and comparing the results.
>> 
>> Genuinely puzzled,
>> Philip
>> biketinker.com
>> 
>> --
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson
> 
> My hovercraft is full of eels
> 
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Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 11:43 -0700, Anne Paulson wrote:
> So then if you timed me and Bradley Wiggins on the same course, with a
> stopwatch, you couldn't tell that he was faster, because maybe you
> weren't quite accurate with the stopwatch?  No, you could easily tell,
> because the tiny difference in the stopwatch pressing would be
> overwhelmed by the fact that he is twice as fast as I am.
> 
> Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
> surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
> stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
> between slower tires and faster ones.
> 
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zeidler  
> wrote:
> > Unless you can guarantee no variance in wind speed or direction, however
> > slight, or that the finger depressing the stop watch button at the exact
> > same second, every single time, just to cite two of many variables, what you
> > have is a Boy Scout Merit Badge project, not anything remotely resembling
> > real research.

And Galileo's experiments were Boy Scout Merit Badge projects too, and
not real science, for the same reason?

Anne's right.  



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RE: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Okay, I had no time to assemble, but couldn't stop myself from a little quick 
mockup.  Apologies for poor quality pics, but you get the idea, anyway.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/sets/72157630957672582/

Looks like the derailleur hanger got bumped in transit -- may have to bend it 
back into alignment. 

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Zeidler
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 2:42 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Cc: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

The production one has a name but I'm sworn to secrecy. 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J 
>  wrote:
>> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...
>> 
>> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!
>> 
>> 
> 
> ooo - thanks for posting pictures. Looks like that back tire needs 
> some love, though :)
> 
> -sv
> 
> --
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Re: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[Robert Zeidler]

Larry, 

Where in CT?

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Larry Powers  wrote:

> I hate MUP's and avoid them at all costs.  At lest around here (central 
> Connecticut) I can always find a route on the roads that I feel comfortable 
> on.  I am much more comfortable riding in traffic that is all moving in the 
> same direction then I am on a trail with oblivious walkers pushing strollers 
> and  walking dogs on long long leashes.  Then add in the kids on bikes, 
> skates or anything else and bicyclists who don't give a darn about the 
> conditions and ride flat out no matter what and you have an accident waiting 
> to happen.  Maybe there are no other good options in other parts of the 
> country but it does not sound like enjoyable riding to me.  
> 
> I am glad you and your Atlantis came through in relatively good shape.
> 
> Larry Powers 
>  
> Get a bicycle.  You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain
> 
> 
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 10:58:16 -0700
> From: stephendem...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...
> 
> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, riding 
> defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use paths), which 
> brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the Burke-Gilman 
> Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in Seattle. The last days 
> here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the trail tends to get very 
> busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with dogs, pedestrians with 
> perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's no denying that because 
> one way or another, as individuals, we all use the trail system in a variety 
> of those roles. But not everyone understands that this is a MUP, and that 
> common sense dictates that everyone needs to look out for one another, 
> especially when the trail gets congested along the way.
> 
> Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend 
> morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and 
> pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" and 
> passing around people two, three abreast, cooperating with the riders. You're 
> going along at a casual 9 to 10 mph. No biggy; safe enough.
> 
> Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little 
> breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of each 
> other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other cyclists 
> "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little congested, and 
> your preparing to slow down as you approach the pedestrians to pass. "On your 
> left," the pedestrian don't heed your warning and at the same time some rider 
> goes zipping by you without any warning as you're making your move, oblivious 
> of the situation, causing you to slam on your brakes in order to not run into 
> the people in front of you, and causes you to jar your shoulder, and hit you 
> pubic bone against the bike stem and cut your leg on the chain ring as you 
> try to stabilize your bike without taking a full-on fall. And, your spouse 
> who is riding behind you, swerves to the left across the trail and into the 
> ditch that runs alongside it so that he/she doesn't rear-end you. Not a 
> pretty scene.
> 
> So here's the rant. These MUPs aren't high-speed highways for cyclists. I'm 
> pretty sure there's a 15 mph speed limit on the BGT. Although, I really 
> believe that most of the cyclist that use these trails are pretty sensitive 
> to how they're used, they're a number of people who ride that have no clue, 
> and do not know how to anticipate a situation before it happens, especially 
> when the trail gets congested as traffic moves along. Riding a bicycle really 
> isn't much different than driving a car when it comes to riding defensively. 
> Yes, pedestrians, on and off the trail, have the right-of-way! And if we 
> could all predict the future before it happens, wouldn't life be box of 
> chocolates. It's not that way, especially in a traffic situation. We're not 
> perfect, that's a given. But what happened to common sense, courtesy, and 
> respect.
> 
> Anyway, I landed safely in the ditch, nothing serious happened to me or my 
> Atlantis, except for a little gouge I took in the calf from a pedal spike. 
> The rider would've kept on riding if it weren't for my wife yelling at the 
> rider to come back. Thankfully the rider did come back to listen to my wife's 
> lecture, and then mine, as a few other riders sped by without a "on your 
> left." It's too bad that the rider who caused this mess is most like not 
> going to find this post. It would be good for her to see the grapefruit-sized 
> hematoma on her upper inner thigh, and the cuts and bruises on her leg. 
> 
> Steve DeMont
> Seattle
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" 

Re: [RBW] Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Anne Paulson]

So then if you timed me and Bradley Wiggins on the same course, with a
stopwatch, you couldn't tell that he was faster, because maybe you
weren't quite accurate with the stopwatch?  No, you could easily tell,
because the tiny difference in the stopwatch pressing would be
overwhelmed by the fact that he is twice as fast as I am.

Similarly with the tire tests. The differences between tires,
surprisingly, were very large. Whatever small noise got introduced by
stopwatch pressing was overwhelmed by the large measured differences
between slower tires and faster ones.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zeidler  wrote:
> Unless you can guarantee no variance in wind speed or direction, however
> slight, or that the finger depressing the stop watch button at the exact
> same second, every single time, just to cite two of many variables, what you
> have is a Boy Scout Merit Badge project, not anything remotely resembling
> real research.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 7, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Philip Williamson 
> wrote:
>
> On Monday, August 6, 2012 5:16:03 PM UTC-7, z-man wrote:
>>
>> Not talking about a few centimeters. That's never even been suggested. I'm
>> talking about 12 or 20 mm bigger.
>
>
> I missed the antecedent for this.
>
>>
>>
>> You're not going to determine what rolls faster by rolling down a hill and
>> measuring with a stop watch.
>
>
> I can't think of another method to rank two rolly things except by rolling
> them, timing the speeds, and comparing the results.
>
> Genuinely puzzled,
> Philip
> biketinker.com
>
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-- 
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My hovercraft is full of eels

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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Robert Zeidler]

The production one has a name but I'm sworn to secrecy. 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 1:15 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J
>  wrote:
>> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...
>> 
>> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!
>> 
>> 
> 
> ooo - thanks for posting pictures. Looks like that back tire needs
> some love, though :)
> 
> -sv
> 
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Robert Zeidler]

Interesting fork set-up. Congrats!

RGZ

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 1:11 PM, "Allingham II, Thomas J" 
 wrote:

> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...
> 
> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained 
> in this message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, 
> for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal 
> Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) 
> promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters 
> addressed herein.
> 
> 
> 
> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. 
> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 
> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any 
> email) and any printout thereof.
> 
> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
> professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
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> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Robert Zeidler]

And if memory serves I might have seen the term in Bicycle Guide back in the 
80's

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Ryan Watson  wrote:

> Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but...
> Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was 
> Grant Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention.
> The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they 
> preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was going 
> OS. It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared it to 
> jumping higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard concrete floor. 
> One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as it 
> recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go."
> I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS tubing 
> on Rivendell bikes.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ryan in Albuquerque
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted  wrote:
> 
>> "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when
>> he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC.  He borrowed the term
>> from boating."
>> 
>> Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that
>> I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion.
>> When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it.
>> It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and
>> there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where
>> resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and
>> planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable
>> oscillating bottom bracket motion.
>> 
>> On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
>>> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he was 
>>> first thinking about the issue, IIRC.  He borrowed the term from boating.
>>> 
>>> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, 
>>> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are.  My 
>>> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there are 
>>> too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the stiffest 
>>> BB due to the ovalized seat tube.
>>> 
>>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over
 whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff
 enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I
 think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right
 flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good
 "performance" bike.
>>> 
 Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about
 beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get
 why thats called planing. Does somebody here know?
>>> 
 On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>> 
>> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote:
>>> 
>>> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he
>>> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these
>>> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of
>>> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant
>>> group except perhaps BQ subscribers).
>>> 
>> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure.
>> A downright heretic in that respect.  As for the rest, don't be so sure:
>> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the
>> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed.
>>> 
> True enough.  Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially 
> overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, 
> chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc.  The power loss 
> from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even 
> with "noodly" frames.  I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur 
> rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel 
> any power loss from frame flex.  Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who 
> won monuments and Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., 
> on one of the most notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979.  
> If the frame flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of 
> frightening...
>>> 
> Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually 
> correct.  It is a spring.  There are several springs on a bike- the 
> frame, the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also 
> radially), the saddle, etc.  In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel 
> flex the distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch.  Lateral 
> wheel flex, especiall

RE: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[Larry Powers]

I hate MUP's and avoid them at all costs.  At lest around here (central 
Connecticut) I can always find a route on the roads that I feel comfortable on. 
 I am much more comfortable riding in traffic that is all moving in the same 
direction then I am on a trail with oblivious walkers pushing strollers and  
walking dogs on long long leashes.  Then add in the kids on bikes, skates or 
anything else and bicyclists who don't give a darn about the conditions and 
ride flat out no matter what and you have an accident waiting to happen.  Maybe 
there are no other good options in other parts of the country but it does not 
sound like enjoyable riding to me.  

I am glad you and your Atlantis came through in relatively good shape.

Larry Powers 

 

Get a bicycle.  You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain


Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 10:58:16 -0700
From: stephendem...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about 
being safe, riding defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs 
(multi-use paths), which brings me to an incident my wife and I had 
yesterday on the Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it 
NE 70th?) in Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although
 very hot, the trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, 
pedestrians with dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All
 good stuff; there's no denying that because one way or another, as 
individuals, we all use the trail system in a variety of those roles. 
But not everyone understands that this is a MUP, and that common sense 
dictates that everyone needs to look out for one another, especially 
when the trail gets congested along the way.



Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend
 morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and 
pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" 
and passing around people two, three abreast, cooperating with the 
riders. You're going along at a casual 9 to 10 mph. No biggy; safe 
enough.



Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little
 breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of 
each other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other 
cyclists "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little 
congested, and your preparing to slow down as you approach the 
pedestrians to pass. "On your left," the pedestrian don't heed your 
warning and at the same time some rider goes zipping by you without any 
warning as you're making your move, oblivious of the situation, causing 
you to slam on your brakes in order to not run into the people in front 
of you, and causes you to jar your shoulder, and hit you pubic bone 
against the bike stem and cut your leg on the chain ring as you try to 
stabilize your bike without taking a full-on fall. And, your spouse who 
is riding behind you, swerves to the left across the trail and into the 
ditch that runs alongside it so that he/she doesn't rear-end you. Not a 
pretty scene.



So here's the rant. These MUPs aren't high-speed highways for cyclists. 
I'm pretty sure there's a 15 mph speed limit on the BGT. Although, I 
really believe that most of the cyclist that use these trails are pretty
 sensitive to how they're used, they're a number of people who ride that
 have no clue, and do not know how to anticipate a situation before it 
happens, especially when the trail gets congested as traffic moves 
along. Riding a bicycle really isn't much different than driving a car 
when it comes to riding defensively. Yes, pedestrians, on and off the 
trail, have the right-of-way! And if we could all predict the future 
before it happens, wouldn't life be box of chocolates. It's not that 
way, especially in a traffic situation. We're not perfect, that's a 
given. But what happened to common sense, courtesy, and respect.



Anyway, I landed safely in the ditch, nothing serious happened to me or 
my Atlantis, except for a little gouge I took in the calf from a pedal 
spike. The rider would've kept on riding if it weren't for my wife 
yelling at the rider to come back. Thankfully the rider did come back to
 listen to my wife's lecture, and then mine, as a few other riders sped 
by without a "on your left." It's too bad that the rider who caused this
 mess is most like not going to find this post. It would be good for her
 to see the grapefruit-sized hematoma on her upper inner thigh, and the 
cuts and bruises on her leg. 

Steve DeMont
Seattle




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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Robert Zeidler]

Personally I hope does do quite well on each bike. That's his right. 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 22:28 -0700, Jan Heine wrote:
>> But I also suspect that Grant doesn't care - he
>> makes the bikes he makes not because they are the most profitable, but
>> because they are the bikes he loves.
> 
> Further evidence is the way he keeps redesigning lugs.  That's a huge
> amount of money for each new design, while repeat castings of an already
> paid for design would be much less expensive.  Obviously it's not
> motivated by a desire to maximize profits!
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Matt Beebe]

Well said Erik.   Sometimes we get caught up in specialization within 
bicycling, which should be trivial.Of course, we are reading the RBWOB 
list, which is yet another specialization. Sorry to hear about the 
Chevron refinery fire and its fallout.   I rode my bike to your neck of the 
woods once.   I crossed the bridge at Martinez from the north while heading 
to Oakland, and could not believe how huge the Shell refinery is.
Unfortunately the Chevron/Shell refineries have caused higher rates of 
respiratory disease, neurological disorders, and cancer for the people in 
the Richmond/Oakland area, to say nothing of their effect on the local 
wildlife.


On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:50:28 PM UTC-4, bicyc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> the only dichotomy worth talking about in bicycling are those who ride 
> their bikes instead of driving a car, and those who don't. 
>
> beyond that, do what you will nobody cares.
>
> before that, your decisions harm other people and force those without the 
> choice to inhale your pollution.
>
> erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught 
> fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me convenience or 
> give me death crowd.
>

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[RBW] Re: PlatRack and Tubus?

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

Alkel Clad Betty Foy  
coming 
home from the recent Kidical Mass PDX family bike camping 
trip
. 

The astute observer will spot me wearing a Bosco Rubee Junior College 
t-shirt while riding my Bosco Rubee bar-ed Big Dummy... look for the bike 
with the American flag. 

--Andy


On Monday, July 9, 2012 11:59:07 AM UTC-7, Leslie wrote:
>
> I know the PlatRack was designed specifically to go with Mark's Rack;   
>
> but I'd be curious to know if anyone has seen if it would happen to mate 
> up to a rack like the Cosmo...
>
> Anyone tried such?
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Peter Morgano]

To steal a line from a show that was good and then went bad that bike
should called the "Vista Cruiser" because you could literally cruise the
vistas when you are on it. Beautiful!

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:48 PM,  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:47:00 PM UTC-4, Scot Brooks wrote:
> > Weirdly, I can't see anything on the iPhone. Any chance of a link?
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/attach/53591c12f1620318/Photo1.jpg?part=2&authuser=0&view=1
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 21:42 -0700, ted wrote:
> Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over
> whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff
> enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I
> think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right
> flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good
> "performance" bike.


Citation, please.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 22:28 -0700, Jan Heine wrote:
> But I also suspect that Grant doesn't care - he
> makes the bikes he makes not because they are the most profitable, but
> because they are the bikes he loves.

Further evidence is the way he keeps redesigning lugs.  That's a huge
amount of money for each new design, while repeat castings of an already
paid for design would be much less expensive.  Obviously it's not
motivated by a desire to maximize profits!



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[RBW] Re: PlatRack and Tubus?

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

I've run both a high and low load on the front of my Hilsen at different 
times. The high load (basket or slicker sack) makes the steering a little 
wobbly. It's not a deal breaker and it's not bad. It does require a little 
extra attention though. Panniers on a lowrider makes the steering really 
stable. I can no-hand it. That was with smaller front specific panniers. 
Interested to hear how a bigger load not quite as low handles. 

Regarding panniers... we've had Ortliebs for a couple years and they've 
served us (my wife and I) well but we needed a couple more panniers for 
family bike camping so I bought a set of Arkels this spring. Have only used 
them a few times but I really like the zipper closures and external 
pockets. 

Beautiful Bombadil BTW. 

--Andy



On Monday, July 9, 2012 11:59:07 AM UTC-7, Leslie wrote:
>
> I know the PlatRack was designed specifically to go with Mark's Rack;   
>
> but I'd be curious to know if anyone has seen if it would happen to mate 
> up to a rack like the Cosmo...
>
> Anyone tried such?
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Matthew J]

> erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught 
fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me 
> convenience or give me death crowd.
 
Agree with your car sentiments whole-heartedly (car free myself for eight 
years this month).  I think that Chevron refinery makes the heavy oil used 
in third world power plants (which of course is much worse than gasoline 
from the pollution perspective).

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:50:28 AM UTC-5, bicyc...@gmail.com wrote: 
>
> the only dichotomy worth talking about in bicycling are those who ride 
> their bikes instead of driving a car, and those who don't. 
>
> beyond that, do what you will nobody cares.
>
> before that, your decisions harm other people and force those without the 
> choice to inhale your pollution.
>
> erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught 
> fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me convenience or 
> give me death crowd.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Complaints about bad roads

[Kelly]

Anne, 

Well sounds like their problem.  I don't get it and have become even less 
sympathetic to those on event rides complaining because a road isn't 
perfect yet the scenery and lack of traffic is spectacular while riding 
700x23's with 120 psi.  Then to go to bigger tires and inflate them to max 
pressures negates the advantage of the larger tire.   

Be happy and befuddled with a smile.. they know not what they are doing and 
paying a price for it.. missing out on the  joy of the tour and the moment.

Kelly

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 4:31:15 AM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
> Let me clarify: the guys were not complaining about bumpy dirt roads. 
> They did not ride on any dirt roads. They were complaining about paved 
> roads with slight imperfections. 
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Matt Beebe  
> wrote: 
> > I doubt it was because they were using Schwalbes, even if they were 
> marathon 
> > tourguards or whatever.When you are riding on a fully loaded tour 
> with 
> > over 30-40lbs of gear, I don't think a heavier tire with stouter 
> sidewalls 
> > is going to affect handling or shock absorption capability that much. 
> > I think the initial theory a few posts up nailed it:they refused to 
> > lower their tire pressures despite the terrain. In my experience, 
> for 
> > tires over 35mm wide, lowering tire pressures from typical pavement 
> > pressures helps smooth out the bumps significantly, and can be the 
> > difference between barely making forward progress and being able to 
> continue 
> > comfortably at 10mph or more.This is especially true on 'washboard' 
> > roads, where (I have found) a lower PSI can really work like magic.   
>  Of 
> > course, there are other aspects of the bike that can contribute to 
> > offroad/bumpy comfort as well, such as riding position and what not. 
>
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson 
>
> My hovercraft is full of eels 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 05:33 -0700, ted wrote:
> I think Jan asserts that stiffer is slower, which is objectively
> measurable.

I would like to see a citation for that statement.

I believe I have read almost everything Jan has published in the last 10
years (except for the Competition Bicycles book) and I do not recall any
such blanket statement.  So please, go hunt for it and when you find it,
quote it in its entirety and provide a citation.  

Either that, or retract the statement.

Steve Palincsar
Alexandria VA



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[RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[justinaugust]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:47:00 PM UTC-4, Scot Brooks wrote:
> Weirdly, I can't see anything on the iPhone. Any chance of a link?

https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/attach/53591c12f1620318/Photo1.jpg?part=2&authuser=0&view=1

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[RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[Scot Brooks]

Weirdly, I can't see anything on the iPhone. Any chance of a link?

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Re: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[John Blish]

Steve,

Sorry to hear of one of these incident that turned into more than just a
close call (of which there are also too many) and I hope you and your wife
recover fully and soon.  In my observation it is often the innocent,
careful party who ends up with the injury.  It seems too that distraction
and a lack of concern for the safety of others are commonplace everywhere
these days.

I have completely stopped using MUPs on weekends and also avoid them
whenever else I can, for just this reason.  Too many folks with too many
different speeds, capabilities, levels of inattention, etc.  Even before
MUPs, basic safety dictated that combining users with widely differing
speeds on highways, sidewalks, etc. was a dangerous mix.

And, if that is not bad enough, Minnesota has recently enacted legislation
that adds "electric assist vehicles" (supposedly capable of no more than 20
mph, which is plenty) to the permitted users on these MUPs which have
historically been characterized by signs indicating "Motor Vehicles
Prohibited."  In other words, motorized electric scooters, which some users
like to run full throttle.

I consider MUPs many times more dangerous than using the road.  My hope is
that bikes are not going to be "required" to use them instead of roads.

Also I never ride anywhere day or night without my mirror that attaches to
my glasses.  I have become so used to it that I really marvel at other
users who just have no idea at all about what is going on behind them and
possibly coming up fast without warning.

-jb


On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 12:58 PM, SteveD  wrote:

> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, riding
> defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use paths),
> which brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the
> Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in
> Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the
> trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with
> dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's
> no denying that because one way or another, as individuals, we all use the
> trail system in a variety of those roles. But not everyone understands that
> this is a MUP, and that common sense dictates that everyone needs to look
> out for one another, especially when the trail gets congested along the way.
>
> Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend
> morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and
> pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" and
> passing around people two, three abreast, cooperating with the riders.
> You're going along at a casual 9 to 10 mph. No biggy; safe enough.
>
> Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little
> breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of each
> other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other cyclists
> "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little congested,
> and your preparing to slow down as you approach the pedestrians to pass.
> "On your left," the pedestrian don't heed your warning and at the same time
> some rider goes zipping by you without any warning as you're making your
> move, oblivious of the situation, causing you to slam on your brakes in
> order to not run into the people in front of you, and causes you to jar
> your shoulder, and hit you pubic bone against the bike stem and cut your
> leg on the chain ring as you try to stabilize your bike without taking a
> full-on fall. And, your spouse who is riding behind you, swerves to the
> left across the trail and into the ditch that runs alongside it so that
> he/she doesn't rear-end you. Not a pretty scene.
>
> So here's the rant. These MUPs aren't high-speed highways for cyclists.
> I'm pretty sure there's a 15 mph speed limit on the BGT. Although, I really
> believe that most of the cyclist that use these trails are pretty sensitive
> to how they're used, they're a number of people who ride that have no clue,
> and do not know how to anticipate a situation before it happens, especially
> when the trail gets congested as traffic moves along. Riding a bicycle
> really isn't much different than driving a car when it comes to riding
> defensively. Yes, pedestrians, on and off the trail, have the right-of-way!
> And if we could all predict the future before it happens, wouldn't life be
> box of chocolates. It's not that way, especially in a traffic situation.
> We're not perfect, that's a given. But what happened to common sense,
> courtesy, and respect.
>
> Anyway, I landed safely in the ditch, nothing serious happened to me or my
> Atlantis, except for a little gouge I took in the calf from a pedal spike.
> The rider would've kept on riding if it weren't for my wife yelling at the
> rider to come back. Thankfully the rider did come back to listen to my
> wife's lecture,

[RBW] Re: Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[SteveD]

Yeah, me, too. I actually surprised myself when I lectured the other rider. 
Normally I use a lot of expletives. But she looked remorseful enough, and 
figured I'd just be really stern and drive home a few points about 
congested areas and speed on the trail. My wife wasn't so kind, which was 
surprising to me. She's an RN and is usually pretty calm in stressful 
situations; but I think this incident pushed her limits a bit, 
understandably so from my point of view. 

What really gets me about pedestrians, are the ones who where their f'ing 
headphones and tell you that you're an f'ing when you pass them after you 
politely give them the "on your left" or ring your bell. That really takes 
the cake for me. Deaf people have an excuse, the others are just plain 
unaware and moronic.

On Monday, August 6, 2012 11:50:48 PM UTC-7, Ryan Ray wrote:
>
> Sorry to hear about your BGT incident!
>
> I like how nice you are about it but I yell at three abreast every time. 
> If your crowd of peds take over half the trail you are going to hear it 
> from me.
>
> Unrelated sort of:
> The one time I was hit was when I stopped to investigate a fender rub and 
> a MTBer with those evil ergo things slammed right into the back of me, 
> scraped up my new Brooks, then poked me in then kidney. I have never looked 
> at those dang things the same since. 
>
> Bike traffic does get serious in Seattle though  Just today there was over 
> 30 bikes in front of me on the Fremont bridge. It felt like a critical mass 
> rally minus the beer. Don't worry there will be plenty of room in a month 
> or so!
>
> -Ryan
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Mystery Bike!

[RJM]

That is quite a long chain stay.  The bike looks like it would be stable.  
I wonder if they are going to make smaller sizes of this frameset so us 
little people can buy one. 

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Re: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[SteveD]

I like bells, too. Just changed out my old red one for a new single-hammer 
brass bell. 

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 6:56:26 AM UTC-7, Mayfly wrote:
>
> I found that a bell gets more attention than "on your left!" every time ( 
> perhaps because of the novelty?). They are mo politel 
>  
> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] 
> on behalf of Ryan Ray [ryanr...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:50 AM 
> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT... 
>
> Sorry to hear about your BGT incident! 
>
> I like how nice you are about it but I yell at three abreast every time. 
> If your crowd of peds take over half the trail you are going to hear it 
> from me. 
>
> Unrelated sort of: 
> The one time I was hit was when I stopped to investigate a fender rub and 
> a MTBer with those evil ergo things slammed right into the back of me, 
> scraped up my new Brooks, then poked me in then kidney. I have never looked 
> at those dang things the same since. 
>
> Bike traffic does get serious in Seattle though  Just today there was over 
> 30 bikes in front of me on the Fremont bridge. It felt like a critical mass 
> rally minus the beer. Don't worry there will be plenty of room in a month 
> or so! 
>
> -Ryan 
>
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>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[SteveD]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 7:14:59 AM UTC-7, kennet...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 12:58 PM, SteveD wrote: 
> > 
> > Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little 
> > breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of 
> each 
> > other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other 
> cyclists 
> > "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little congested, 
> and 
> > your preparing to slow down as you approach the pedestrians to pass. "On 
> > your left," the pedestrian don't heed your warning and at the same time 
> some 
> > rider goes zipping by you without any warning as you're making your 
> move, 
> > oblivious of the situation, causing you to slam on your brakes in order 
> to 
> > not run into the people in front of you, and causes you to jar your 
> > shoulder, and hit you pubic bone against the bike stem and cut your leg 
> on 
> > the chain ring as you try to stabilize your bike without taking a 
> full-on 
> > fall. And, your spouse who is riding behind you, swerves to the left 
> across 
> > the trail and into the ditch that runs alongside it so that he/she 
> doesn't 
> > rear-end you. Not a pretty scene. 
> > 
> Yep, 15 mph on a busy trail is way too fast. And it always gets me as too 
> how utterly stupid some people are when they don't look both ways before 
> crossing the road. Maybe they're thinking that because they're on a bike or 
> on foot that the imaginary crosswalk-guard-godmother is watching over them. 
>
-Steve 

 

> Uh, yeah.  The times I've ridden the BGT it was a zoo, pretty much 
> from Seattle to the top of the lake.  Yes there's a 15mph speed limit 
> but a) that's too fast for when it's crowded and b) there are too many 
> utter morons who completely ignore it, stop signs, signals and all of 
> the other conventions that are place to make the use of MUPS safe (not 
> to mention roads!) 
>
> Last week I road SAGBRAW here in Wisconsin.  On the first day there 
> was an option to take a MUP for the last stretch along the Lake 
> Michigan into Manitowoc.  I took the road instead because it was a hot 
> day, I knew the path would be crowded and I wanted to get in to the 
> finish so I could take a shower.  Not a good time to be slowing to 
> 15mph and doing the slalom with oblivious pedestrians. 
>
> Riv content - I wondered around a couple of the overnight stops 
> checking out the bikes but the closest I saw to a Rivendell was my 
> Mariposa (modified 1st generation Rivendell lugs.)  It was a bit 
> shocking after seeing so many Rams, Atlantises and Riv's back in the 
> Seattle area.  Out of 400+ riders you could probably count the number 
> of lugged bikes on two hands.  OTOH, they were out there riding 
> because they enjoy it so I won't gripe about their rides of choice :) 
>
> -Ken 
>

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[RBW] Re: Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[SteveD]

I know what you mean. When the trails are crowded, I feel safer on the road 
but ride accordingly. Commute mornings and afternoons are great; not a lot 
of pedestrian traffic, and the peds that use the trail at those times are 
pretty cognizant of what's going on around them; they typically stay close 
to the shoulder.

Bike to Work days are the worst in my opinion. Suddenly, everyone's a 
commuter, even though they stop dead-center in the trail to chat with the 
their fellow "commuters." Having said that, I think it's great that more 
people in Seattle (and elsewhere, too) are seeing how convenient it is to 
get to work by bike--you're well ahead of car traffic and don't have to 
deal with parking issues. It would be great if more people were better 
educated about using bicycles as a mode of transportation as well as 
recreational. 

-Steve

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:23:08 AM UTC-7, RoadieRyan wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> Sorry to hear about this incident, living in West Seattle I see the same 
> thing, oblivious users of all types, on the Alki trail when the weather 
> heats up.  Its gotten to the point that I just automatically ride on the 
> road on nice days and avoid the trail all together.  Hope you and your 
> spouse heal quickly and can enjoy this Seattle Summer.
>
> On Monday, August 6, 2012 10:58:16 AM UTC-7, SteveD wrote:
>>
>> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, riding 
>> defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use paths), 
>> which brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the 
>> Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in 
>> Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the 
>> trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with 
>> dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's 
>> no denying that because one way or another, as individuals, we all use the 
>> trail system in a variety of those roles. But not everyone understands that 
>> this is a MUP, and that common sense dictates that everyone needs to look 
>> out for one another, especially when the trail gets congested along the way.
>>
>> Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend 
>> morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and 
>> pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" and 
>> passing around people two, three abreast, cooperating with the riders. 
>> You're going along at a casual 9 to 10 mph. No biggy; safe enough.
>>
>> Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little 
>> breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of each 
>> other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other cyclists 
>> "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little congested, 
>> and your preparing to slow down as you approach the pedestrians to pass. 
>> "On your left," the pedestrian don't heed your warning and at the same time 
>> some rider goes zipping by you without any warning as you're making your 
>> move, oblivious of the situation, causing you to slam on your brakes in 
>> order to not run into the people in front of you, and causes you to jar 
>> your shoulder, and hit you pubic bone against the bike stem and cut your 
>> leg on the chain ring as you try to stabilize your bike without taking a 
>> full-on fall. And, your spouse who is riding behind you, swerves to the 
>> left across the trail and into the ditch that runs alongside it so that 
>> he/she doesn't rear-end you. Not a pretty scene.
>>
>> So here's the rant. These MUPs aren't high-speed highways for cyclists. 
>> I'm pretty sure there's a 15 mph speed limit on the BGT. Although, I really 
>> believe that most of the cyclist that use these trails are pretty sensitive 
>> to how they're used, they're a number of people who ride that have no clue, 
>> and do not know how to anticipate a situation before it happens, especially 
>> when the trail gets congested as traffic moves along. Riding a bicycle 
>> really isn't much different than driving a car when it comes to riding 
>> defensively. Yes, pedestrians, on and off the trail, have the right-of-way! 
>> And if we could all predict the future before it happens, wouldn't life be 
>> box of chocolates. It's not that way, especially in a traffic situation. 
>> We're not perfect, that's a given. But what happened to common sense, 
>> courtesy, and respect.
>>
>> Anyway, I landed safely in the ditch, nothing serious happened to me or 
>> my Atlantis, except for a little gouge I took in the calf from a pedal 
>> spike. The rider would've kept on riding if it weren't for my wife yelling 
>> at the rider to come back. Thankfully the rider did come back to listen to 
>> my wife's lecture, and then mine, as a few other riders sped by without a 
>> "on your left." It's too bad that the rider who caused this mess is most 
>> li

Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Lee Chae]

Nice, Thomas! I used to ride a Schwinn Spitfire 5 all over the streets of
San Francisco. This thing takes me back to those good days, albeit in much,
much upgraded form! Thanks for sharing.

Lee
SF, CA

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J <
thomas.alling...@skadden.com> wrote:

> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...
>
> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!
>
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[SteveD]

Agreed, Nick. MIrrors are great. 
http://pathlesspedaled.com/2012/03/gear-reflecting-about-cycling-mirrors/

I typically ride with a mirror attached to my shades to point that having 
used it for so many years that on the very rare occasions, like the other 
day, when I don't use it I still ride like I'm wearing, if you know what I 
mean. And actually, I had loaned my wife my shades that day. She wasn't 
using the mirror, but I did see her do a quick look over her shoulder. I 
think the person on the other bike was coming up so fast that it didn't 
register with my wife. It certainly didn't with me, and I'm pretty tuned 
into traffic noise.

Yep, MUPs can be like the wild west; it's safer to ride on city streets, 
that's if you're obeying the traffic laws, riding with the flow of traffic, 
being predictable. Riding on a MUP that are congested are highly 
unpredictable where riding slow and being mindful of all the various 
situations that might occur really is sensible. As for the other rider not 
seeing and estimating what was ahead of her, all I can say is that she was 
totally oblivious of her environment or completely blind. 

Sometimes my wife calls me the bike Nazi because I get a little uptight 
about people who ride their bikes without an iota of common sense, like 
riding in the opposite direction against traffic or bombing down a crowded 
trail in their racing costumes. And I know I'm no saint, but I at least try 
to use some common sense when riding in mixed traffic situations, i.e., 
cars and pedestrians. 

Anyway, mirrors make life on a bike more comfortable in my opinion. They 
may look funny when worn on a helmet or shades. But their worth it.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:25:09 AM UTC-7, NickBull wrote:
>
> Too bad about the crash.  All the bike trails I've ever been on seem to be 
> like the wild west -- no law enforcement whatsoever.  It's everyone for 
> themselves, so the only way to survive is to have maximum situational 
> awareness, know where everyone is around you both ahead and behind, and 
> ride as though everyone around you will do something stupid.  Clearly the 
> pedestrians were wrong to be three abreast because it causes a hazard.  
> Clearly the bike that passed without warning was wrong to do so, though 
> they may not have been aware of the pedestrians ahead of you.  
>
> But if you were wearing a mirror and took a glance in it the instant you 
> saw the pedestrians (to check on whether anyone is coming up behind), then 
> another glance just before you're going to move over (to check that the 
> coast is still clear), and a final look over your shoulder to double-check 
> the instant before you move over, then it is almost impossible to have had 
> this develop into an accident.  You might have had to brake hard when you 
> glanced in the mirror and saw someone coming up fast.  But at that stage 
> you still would have had time to brake safely.
>
> I had almost the opposite incident happen to me the other day.  A woman 
> passed me (safely) but then slowed down somewhat so we were going the same 
> speed.  I was about fifteen or twenty feet behind her because I don't like 
> to ride close to people who I don't know.  This continued for about half a 
> mile.  As we were coming up on a pedestrian, I moved to the left well 
> before she did, still fifteen or twenty feet back.  At the last moment, she 
> glanced over her shoulder, saw me, and slammed on her brakes and cursed me, 
> presumably thinking I was trying to pass her.  All of this drama would have 
> been totally unnecessary if she had been wearing a mirror.  Had she been 
> wearing a mirror, then after she passed me, she would have seen that she 
> wasn't dropping me, but that I was behind her at a safe distance and she 
> had plenty of clearance to move left.
>
> Nick
>
> On Monday, August 6, 2012 1:58:16 PM UTC-4, SteveD wrote:
>>
>> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, riding 
>> defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use paths), 
>> which brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the 
>> Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in 
>> Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the 
>> trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with 
>> dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's 
>> no denying that because one way or another, as individuals, we all use the 
>> trail system in a variety of those roles. But not everyone understands that 
>> this is a MUP, and that common sense dictates that everyone needs to look 
>> out for one another, especially when the trail gets congested along the way.
>>
>> Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend 
>> morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and 
>> pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" and 
>> passing around peo

Re: [RBW] Mystery Bike!

[Seth Vidal]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J
 wrote:
> Is here, but no time to assemble.  But here's a pic...
>
> No name, no decals. We can call it whatever we want!
>
>

ooo - thanks for posting pictures. Looks like that back tire needs
some love, though :)

-sv

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[erik jensen]

the only dichotomy worth talking about in bicycling are those who ride
their bikes instead of driving a car, and those who don't.

beyond that, do what you will nobody cares.

before that, your decisions harm other people and force those without the
choice to inhale your pollution.

erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught fire
last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me convenience or give
me death crowd.

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[RBW] Re: rear 120 mm 5speed freewheel hub for my quickbeam?

[Stephen S]

Could look at going vintage and classy at the same time.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Tipo-High-Flange-Rear-Hub-and-Skewer-/150869361685?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232083c415

or

something like this 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-RECORD-REAR-Hub-36-HOLE-122mm-OLN-5-speed-PROPER-CAMPAG-B4-DISPOSABLE-/280931733404?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item4168d60f9c


On Monday, August 6, 2012 10:19:49 AM UTC-7, rex wrote:
>
> hi everyone
> im looking for a rear hub to be made into a wheel for my quickbeam. i am 
> currently running it as a 5sp freewheel with clamp on derailer via a cheap 
> 126mm wheel sourced from my lbs. we "respaced" it to about 122mm with 
> slimmer nuts and it works quite well. im convinced i want to keep it this 
> way. so now i want to have a nicer wheel built up to be permanent. the 
> trouble is the paul or phil hubs that fit my needs are about $190. i was 
> hoping to get the whole wheel for around that.
> any thoughts as to an alternative hub or do any of you out there have a 
> 120mm 5 speed freewheel hub youd sell? 
> i have seen a freewheel hub branded quando in 126mm. they have sealed 
> bearings and sell for around $30. the guy at the lbs said i could change 
> out the freewheel spacer to a 5sp one from a 6sp one and grind of 3mm on 
> each side of the axle and id be right there. it would work out ok too since 
> id have that done before the wheel was built to get the dish right easier. 
> a wheel with that hub and a sun cr18 rim @36 spokes works out to be about 
> $150. that dosent sound too bad to me for a hand built wheel. any thoughts 
> as to the positive/negative ramifications of doing this?  
> thanks for your time
> joe kelly
> columbus ohio 
>

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[RBW] Re: Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[NickBull]

Too bad about the crash.  All the bike trails I've ever been on seem to be 
like the wild west -- no law enforcement whatsoever.  It's everyone for 
themselves, so the only way to survive is to have maximum situational 
awareness, know where everyone is around you both ahead and behind, and 
ride as though everyone around you will do something stupid.  Clearly the 
pedestrians were wrong to be three abreast because it causes a hazard.  
Clearly the bike that passed without warning was wrong to do so, though 
they may not have been aware of the pedestrians ahead of you.  

But if you were wearing a mirror and took a glance in it the instant you 
saw the pedestrians (to check on whether anyone is coming up behind), then 
another glance just before you're going to move over (to check that the 
coast is still clear), and a final look over your shoulder to double-check 
the instant before you move over, then it is almost impossible to have had 
this develop into an accident.  You might have had to brake hard when you 
glanced in the mirror and saw someone coming up fast.  But at that stage 
you still would have had time to brake safely.

I had almost the opposite incident happen to me the other day.  A woman 
passed me (safely) but then slowed down somewhat so we were going the same 
speed.  I was about fifteen or twenty feet behind her because I don't like 
to ride close to people who I don't know.  This continued for about half a 
mile.  As we were coming up on a pedestrian, I moved to the left well 
before she did, still fifteen or twenty feet back.  At the last moment, she 
glanced over her shoulder, saw me, and slammed on her brakes and cursed me, 
presumably thinking I was trying to pass her.  All of this drama would have 
been totally unnecessary if she had been wearing a mirror.  Had she been 
wearing a mirror, then after she passed me, she would have seen that she 
wasn't dropping me, but that I was behind her at a safe distance and she 
had plenty of clearance to move left.

Nick

On Monday, August 6, 2012 1:58:16 PM UTC-4, SteveD wrote:
>
> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, riding 
> defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use paths), 
> which brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the 
> Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in 
> Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the 
> trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with 
> dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's 
> no denying that because one way or another, as individuals, we all use the 
> trail system in a variety of those roles. But not everyone understands that 
> this is a MUP, and that common sense dictates that everyone needs to look 
> out for one another, especially when the trail gets congested along the way.
>
> Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend 
> morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and 
> pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" and 
> passing around people two, three abreast, cooperating with the riders. 
> You're going along at a casual 9 to 10 mph. No biggy; safe enough.
>
> Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little 
> breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of each 
> other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other cyclists 
> "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little congested, 
> and your preparing to slow down as you approach the pedestrians to pass. 
> "On your left," the pedestrian don't heed your warning and at the same time 
> some rider goes zipping by you without any warning as you're making your 
> move, oblivious of the situation, causing you to slam on your brakes in 
> order to not run into the people in front of you, and causes you to jar 
> your shoulder, and hit you pubic bone against the bike stem and cut your 
> leg on the chain ring as you try to stabilize your bike without taking a 
> full-on fall. And, your spouse who is riding behind you, swerves to the 
> left across the trail and into the ditch that runs alongside it so that 
> he/she doesn't rear-end you. Not a pretty scene.
>
> So here's the rant. These MUPs aren't high-speed highways for cyclists. 
> I'm pretty sure there's a 15 mph speed limit on the BGT. Although, I really 
> believe that most of the cyclist that use these trails are pretty sensitive 
> to how they're used, they're a number of people who ride that have no clue, 
> and do not know how to anticipate a situation before it happens, especially 
> when the trail gets congested as traffic moves along. Riding a bicycle 
> really isn't much different than driving a car when it comes to riding 
> defensively. Yes, pedestrians, on and off the trail, have the right-of-way! 
> And if we could all predict the future bef

[RBW] Re: Biking incident on Seattle BGT...

[RoadieRyan]

Steve,

Sorry to hear about this incident, living in West Seattle I see the same 
thing, oblivious users of all types, on the Alki trail when the weather 
heats up.  Its gotten to the point that I just automatically ride on the 
road on nice days and avoid the trail all together.  Hope you and your 
spouse heal quickly and can enjoy this Seattle Summer.

On Monday, August 6, 2012 10:58:16 AM UTC-7, SteveD wrote:
>
> As a commuter, I'd like to think I'm pretty good about being safe, riding 
> defensively, especially when it comes to using MUPs (multi-use paths), 
> which brings me to an incident my wife and I had yesterday on the 
> Burke-Gilman Trail just north of 70th Ave NE (or is it NE 70th?) in 
> Seattle. The last days here have been pretty nice, although very hot, the 
> trail tends to get very busy with cyclists, pedestrians, pedestrians with 
> dogs, pedestrians with perambulators, and so forth. All good stuff; there's 
> no denying that because one way or another, as individuals, we all use the 
> trail system in a variety of those roles. But not everyone understands that 
> this is a MUP, and that common sense dictates that everyone needs to look 
> out for one another, especially when the trail gets congested along the way.
>
> Imagine taking a leisurely ride on your local MUP on a very nice weekend 
> morning. The trail has its busy sections here and there. Cyclists and 
> pedestrians are moving along pleasantly enough; lots of "on your left" and 
> passing around people two, three abreast, cooperating with the riders. 
> You're going along at a casual 9 to 10 mph. No biggy; safe enough.
>
> Everyone's enjoying their day on the tree-lined trail with a nice little 
> breeze. You notice that there's a threesome of pedestrians abreast of each 
> other, chatting, about 50 feet or so ahead of you. There are other cyclists 
> "on your lefting" as they pass. The trail is getting a little congested, 
> and your preparing to slow down as you approach the pedestrians to pass. 
> "On your left," the pedestrian don't heed your warning and at the same time 
> some rider goes zipping by you without any warning as you're making your 
> move, oblivious of the situation, causing you to slam on your brakes in 
> order to not run into the people in front of you, and causes you to jar 
> your shoulder, and hit you pubic bone against the bike stem and cut your 
> leg on the chain ring as you try to stabilize your bike without taking a 
> full-on fall. And, your spouse who is riding behind you, swerves to the 
> left across the trail and into the ditch that runs alongside it so that 
> he/she doesn't rear-end you. Not a pretty scene.
>
> So here's the rant. These MUPs aren't high-speed highways for cyclists. 
> I'm pretty sure there's a 15 mph speed limit on the BGT. Although, I really 
> believe that most of the cyclist that use these trails are pretty sensitive 
> to how they're used, they're a number of people who ride that have no clue, 
> and do not know how to anticipate a situation before it happens, especially 
> when the trail gets congested as traffic moves along. Riding a bicycle 
> really isn't much different than driving a car when it comes to riding 
> defensively. Yes, pedestrians, on and off the trail, have the right-of-way! 
> And if we could all predict the future before it happens, wouldn't life be 
> box of chocolates. It's not that way, especially in a traffic situation. 
> We're not perfect, that's a given. But what happened to common sense, 
> courtesy, and respect.
>
> Anyway, I landed safely in the ditch, nothing serious happened to me or my 
> Atlantis, except for a little gouge I took in the calf from a pedal spike. 
> The rider would've kept on riding if it weren't for my wife yelling at the 
> rider to come back. Thankfully the rider did come back to listen to my 
> wife's lecture, and then mine, as a few other riders sped by without a "on 
> your left." It's too bad that the rider who caused this mess is most like 
> not going to find this post. It would be good for her to see the 
> grapefruit-sized hematoma on her upper inner thigh, and the cuts and 
> bruises on her leg. 
>
> Steve DeMont
> Seattle
>

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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[justinaugust]

You would have to show me some pretty rigorous tests to prove that across the 
board, stuff = slow. I LOVE BQ and all that it does for cycling, both 
technically and culturally, but I have yet to see tests that strike me as being 
rigorous enough to assert anything from them as an axiom or anything more than 
a anecdotally observed theory. 

Justin, in Philly

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Matthew J]

> Ancien/anciennes can correct me here, but i'm pretty sure bag drops are 
commonly used at PBP and there is no penalty for this, nor is 
> it considered cheating.  In my experience, "unsupported" isn't a very 
precise word in randonneuring.  
 
Well, would not be the first time I misunderstood something I read 
somewhere.
 
Of course whether the bike is Steel, Ti or Plastic, a rider should be able 
to go faster without a load than with.  
 
If the rider intends to ride 1200 km without any outside supply, 
the traditional Rando set up is as good a way to do this as any.  By that I 
mean a relatively light frame and fork with a modest sized bag up front for 
easy access.  You could carry battery lights, but dynamo mean less chance 
of losing light, so why not?  And, if the ride is in a place where rain is 
likely- such as the Pacific Northwest or the Northwest Coast of France, 
fenders make a lot of sense.  


On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:23:16 AM UTC-5, Patrick in VT wrote:

> On Monday, August 6, 2012 4:42:16 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote: 
>>
>>  
>> My reference was intended to be PBP exclusively - I see the way I wrote 
>> that is not clear.  As I understand the PBP rules, bag drops are not 
>> allowed.
>>
>
> Ancien/anciennes can correct me here, but i'm pretty sure bag drops are 
> commonly used at PBP and there is no penalty for this, nor is it considered 
> cheating.  In my experience, "unsupported" isn't a very precise word in 
> randonneuring.  
>
> Regarding whether it's "racing" or not, that's entirely up to any given 
> rider.  everybody has a goal - whether it's to finish fast, set a personal 
> best or just finish.  real amateur "races" work the same way - often, the 
> winner gets absolutely nothing but a bit of local glory.  participation in 
> a 5/10k foot race, or a marathon (also a "race"), or Cat4 masters 
> cyclocross race, or local sprint triathlon, etc. is not contingent on 
> people who think they are actually going to "win" - folks do it because 
> they like it.  or want to try something new.   the results might read 
> differently, but rando and "racing" aren't that different.  its just people 
> out for the experience/personal challenge, reaching for their goals and 
> enjoying an active life.  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Julian]

Ted, 

Have you read the comments Jan made in the discussion on his blog? Jan 
describes the bike, says he's sure many are happy with it, he's glad Riv 
makes bikes like it, but it wouldn't be his recommendation for a go-fast 
club rider type -- as Matthew J said earlier, it is hard to imagine Grant 
would disagree -- if he would, how do you explain the Roadeo? Not sure 
where you get the impression Jan does not know what a Hilsen is. 

Regards, 

Julian Westerhout
Bloomington, Il


On Monday, August 6, 2012 6:59:06 PM UTC-5, ted wrote:
>
> > Finally, on the linked comments section, Jan says he likes the Hilsen 
> for what it is, ... 
>
> But I don't think Jan knows what a Hilsen is. I am also skeptical 
> about his notions regarding oversized main triangle tubes. 
>
> snip

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Re: [RBW] Re: Growing Closer With Family + Understanding Exposure

[Peter Morgano]

My sympathy goes out to the Sikh community. My I am an athiest but grew up
with Sikhs and can attest that they are some of the nicest, gentlest,
non-judgemental people I know, I was always in awe of thier oneness with
the world around them, they always seemed at peace.  Its really sad that we
live in a society where when someone looks different we have to treat them
like they are the "enemy" instead of reaching out and maybe trying to learn
something new or get outside your comfort zone.   Riv content-friends of
mine from Punjab said if I had to ride a bike on those streets I would
believe in God pretty fast!
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Amit Singh  wrote:

> Thanks all for the outpouring of love and positive words.
>
> Just want to make sure there's good information out there to avoid
> massacres like this from happening in the future.
>
> What is 'Sikh' ?:
>
> * 'Sikh' means to learn, a 'Sikh' is therefore a student.
>
> * Sikhism comes from Punjab, and has become one of the world's largest
> religions.
>
> * Sikhism preaches a message of devotion, remembrance of God at all times,
> truthful living, equality between all human beings and social justice.
>
> * Sikhs believe in the importance of leading a virtuous and moral life.
>
> * Sikhs do not want to hurt anyone. A Sikh's job is to serve others. A
> Sikh believes in community service and giving back.
>
> * A turban is a distinct article of clothing that is almost entirely
> exclusive to Sikhs.
>
> * Turbaned Sikhs are often racially profiled. Turbaned Sikhs are not
> terrorists, they are not the enemy, they are a Sikhs.
>
> I think turbans are cool.  There are lots of styles, prints, colors. Each
> person ties their turban differently from another person. If you see a
> turban that looks particularly cool, tasteful or interesting feel free to
> give a compliment :)
>
> Riv related content : Lots of bicycles from Punjab feature steel, lugs,
> double top-tubes and bars similar to the Bosco :)
>
> Here's a good example : http://www.kwcycles.com/bb-axle-manufacturer.html
>
> Apologies if this offended anyone.  I'm ready to get back to riding
> bicycles, sharing photos, discussing low vs. high trail and swapping parts.
>
> Amit
>
> photo credit for the Sikh on the bicycle, Arnaud
> http://www.blogger.com/profile/13404548154784036469
>
> On Tuesday, 7 August 2012 02:14:10 UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>>
>> Amen on all three counts.
>>
>> Philip
>>
>> On Monday, August 6, 2012 6:22:08 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
 Also -- I'm an American Sikh.

 Amit

>>>
>>> Amit,  I am so sorry about the catastrophe  that has hit your community.
>>>  I pray we can all find a way to transformation this evil and pain  into a
>>> deeper sense of care for one another.
>>>
>>> Perhaps somehow the joy of cycling that you share can create more
>>> connected communities.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog

[Ryan Watson]

Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but...
Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was Grant 
Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention.
The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they 
preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was going OS. 
It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared it to jumping 
higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard concrete floor. 
One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as it 
recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go."
I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS tubing 
on Rivendell bikes.

Cheers,
Ryan in Albuquerque



On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted  wrote:

> "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when
> he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC.  He borrowed the term
> from boating."
> 
> Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that
> I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion.
> When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it.
> It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and
> there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where
> resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and
> planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable
> oscillating bottom bracket motion.
> 
> On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
>> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he was 
>> first thinking about the issue, IIRC.  He borrowed the term from boating.
>> 
>> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, 
>> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are.  My 
>> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there are 
>> too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the stiffest 
>> BB due to the ovalized seat tube.
>> 
>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over
>>> whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff
>>> enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I
>>> think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right
>>> flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good
>>> "performance" bike.
>> 
>>> Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about
>>> beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get
>>> why thats called planing. Does somebody here know?
>> 
>>> On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
 On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>> 
> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote:
>> 
>> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he
>> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these
>> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of
>> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant
>> group except perhaps BQ subscribers).
>> 
> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure.
> A downright heretic in that respect.  As for the rest, don't be so sure:
> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the
> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed.
>> 
 True enough.  Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially 
 overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, 
 chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc.  The power loss 
 from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even 
 with "noodly" frames.  I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur 
 rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel 
 any power loss from frame flex.  Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who 
 won monuments and Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., 
 on one of the most notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979.  If 
 the frame flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of 
 frightening...
>> 
 Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually 
 correct.  It is a spring.  There are several springs on a bike- the frame, 
 the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also radially), the 
 saddle, etc.  In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel flex the 
 distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch.  Lateral wheel flex, 
 especially the rear wheel, can be relatively large (e.g., 1/8 to 1/4 inch) 
 under normal use.  A lot of these can be quantified with strain gauges, 
 which might be an interesting study.  Can "planing" be objectively 
 measured and compared to the subjective expe

Re: [RBW] Shimano CX70s

[Ginz]

Thanks, everyone.  If the CX70's take standard "dura type" inserts, then 
that is very nice.  I'm still in a bit of sticker shock.

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