Re: [RBW] Mudflap in or out?
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 12:40, Joe Bunik jbu...@gmail.com wrote: When mounting a (leather) mudflap to (Honjo) daruma bolts of a fender, is it better to go inboard or out? I think the flap should go outboard, because if it is inboard it could disrupt the flow of water out the bottom of the fender. That said, in a recent issue of BQ there were instructions about how to put a flap inboard and secured by the rolled-over edges of the fender. If I were to put a mudflap inboard, I would probably put some tape over the top on the inside in order to smooth the transition, to make it more like a ramp and less like a curb. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Non-leather saddle with saddlebag loops
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 10:08, Forrest ftme...@me.com wrote: Did you shim the Viva's with rubber? I haven't tried that, but just wondered if it would help with the slipping. -- Forrest (Iowa City) Yes, rubber was the first thing I tried. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Non-leather saddle with saddlebag loops
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 11:24, tarik saleh tariksa...@gmail.com wrote: I have not had good experience with the viva loops, they do not tighten down on the rails well after a while. Anecdotally I have heard this can happen immediately. I agree with all that. I used the Viva loops, they slipped immediately. I tried to shim them, still no good. I had much better luck with the Cyclo loops. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Non-leather saddle with saddlebag loops
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 09:31, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote: As there is no way my son would take care of a Brooks saddle, any recommendations for a non-leather saddle that I could attach a Carradice saddlebag to? Anne, There were models of leather-over-foam-over-plastic saddles made by Japanese manufacturers in the 1970s that had plastic saddle loops formed as part of the shell. These saddles were derivative of the Unica-Nitor style, and many of them have Brooks-style adjustable tension screws at the front of the plastic shell. Manufacturers include Kashima, Fujita, Elina and Ariake. You can probably find one on eBay. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- The 2012 month-at-a-time-view Planner-Calendar, Architecture Burger product AB0612 designed by James Black, is available now. For more information: http://architectureburger.com/?p=77 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Have you seen the Grand Bois stem/decaleur
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 08:16, benzzoy benz...@yahoo.com wrote: Actually, I'm not entirely sure why there is a need for decaleurs. An ideal design for me would be something like the Acorn Boxy Rando bag with its velcro straps, coupled to a rack that is sized for the more- wide-than-long dimensions of such a bag. Speaking from experience (Acorn bag on a custom made 8 wide rack), the velco is entirely inadequate to stabilize the bag. My friend and I designed a custom decaleur with the primary goal of laterally stabilizing the bag, and it works like a charm. http://www.appleblock.com/decaleur.php Although reading your post gave me the idea that I might put some bigger and stronger velcro on the bag bottom and improve performance even with the decaleur. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Herse Crank (and BQ Spoiler Alert!)
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 15:18, Michael_S mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote: I will probably buy one for my custom Rando anyway just cuz' they look so cool. Even if they only come in 171. Which was a vey common size made in the 70's, I've heard. As a matter of trivia, 171mm is the closest mm size to the old-timey 6 3/4 crank length, so it's just another of the many weird numbers we are left with as a result of imperial standards being translated into metric. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: [BOB] Why Freewheels? WAS: Experiments in Rolling Resistance and Low Speed Stability
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 03:35, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 20:43 -0700, james black wrote: Why must we dump our freewheels, a technology which in my experience has always performed flawlessly as intended, just because freehubs make for better engineering? One reason might be that freewheels NEVER performed flawlessly. I understand the advantages of cassettes, but let me emphasize the in my experience part of my statement above - I have used freewheels for years personally without any problems. Freehubs may work better, but freewheels have worked pretty well too, at least if you can avoid the factors that lead to problems (like crap IRD freewheels, axle-bending wide spacing, heavily loaded bikes, etc.). There is also a question of economy. Obviously choosing a Phil or White freewheel hub and new IRD freewheels is not a bargain choice; but for us bottomfeeders it is still very easy and inexpensive to acquire a decent freewheel hub and functional freewheel (either an older Suntour or a new production Shimano). I would generally spend more on a freehub setup than I would on a freewheel setup (which I would choose without reservation if I were equipping, for example, a bike with 120mm dropouts and a five-speed cogset). James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: [BOB] Why Freewheels? WAS: Experiments in Rolling Resistance and Low Speed Stability
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 12:34, John Vu j...@jhvu.com wrote: I love my freewheel stuff but I'm not sure you can really say it's cheaper to use them. I don't think I can claim it's cheaper to use freewheels, but it can be cheap. The last wheelset I built last year was on a NOS pair of Sunshine high-flange hubs that I got on eBay for about $15 and a NOS Suntour five-speed freewheel for about $10 on eBay. If today I set out to build something like a 130mm OLD 7-speed Shimano freehub wheelset, I would likely spend more than that for the hubs and cassette. I see the freewheel system as analogous to the quill stem - technological improvements have supplanted it in the mainstream market, but not rendered it worthless or any less useful than it was 20 years ago. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Why Freewheels? WAS: Experiments in Rolling Resistance and Low Speed Stability
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 13:52, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: If gearing choices don't matter to you, fine; and if you happen to be a real genuine fan of 14-28 Alpine, then God bless you - some long winter's evening maybe you can explain to me how the shifting pattern works, and who knows, long about the 4th or 5th hot toddy I might actually get it. Otherwise, you are so out of luck. You have outlined a pretty weird drinking game there. Actually I do like the 14-28 five-speed - you can make a nice halfstep with it and it has a good range, but I also have found from my recent experience with half-step that I don't need the fine steps between gears that halfstep provides. I would rather have more substantial jumps between gears, especially after riding fixed gear for a long time, the fine gear steps seem irrelevant as I am willing and able to pedal at different cadences. Also, bottom feeding - by that I mean that I have boxes of take-off bike parts from the several UJBs I have purchased over the years, including old wheelsets and various barely used 14-28 five-speed freewheels. They aren't garbage, they work fine. But on my last wheelbuild, I messed around with freewheels because it was a direct way to get a multi-gear drivetrain with some elegant high flange hubs on a bike with 126mm dropout spacing. And I would do it again! When I put that rSogn together, on the other hand, I will use NOS Shimano Deore DX freehubs with a 7-speed hyperglide cassette. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: [BOB] Why Freewheels? WAS: Experiments in Rolling Resistance and Low Speed Stability
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 05:17, Dave Mann pinnah.d...@gmail.com wrote: So... I'm probably about as retro-grouchy as the next iBOB, but I have to ask... Why use a freewheel? By asking this question you are advancing to a new plateau of grouchy. Why must we dump our freewheels, a technology which in my experience has always performed flawlessly as intended, just because freehubs make for better engineering? You might as well ask why we still use those dumbass friction shifters instead of brifters, or why would we choose a bicycle when we could take a car instead, or why do I eat Hot Pockets when Spago is so close by. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Offered: 650A Panaracer Col de la Vie Randonnee Tires
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 07:00, climbthemtns climbthem...@gmail.com wrote: This was Riv's last set of 650As. Thought they would fit my 26 wheels on an old Schwinn Three speed, but didn't. Sounds like you need 597's, as you may have already figured out: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/597.html James black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Good decaleur for use with an Acorn Boxy Rando
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:33, nathan spindel nath...@gmail.com wrote: +1 to the added benefit of a decaleur with the Acorn rando bag. I'd used the bag without a decaleur on a Mark's Rack before, but on a subsequent bike build I opted to go for Nitto M-13 + VO threaded decaleur. I was surprised at how much more stable and solid the bag felt with the addition of the decaleur. A lot less sway, especially when riding over bumpy stuff. I agree, a decaleur does a ton of good. I have a homemade quick-release decaleur for my Acorn bag: http://appleblock.blogspot.com/2010/09/qr-lever-added-to-prototype-decaleur.html James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Grant refers to this helmet guy for some reason
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 17:39, rperks perks@gmail.com wrote: Not sure what rubs you wrong about his delivery. Likewise his blog, http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/ , an dthe cycling chic seems to rub people wrong. This again confuses me as to why showing regular people dressed smartly using bikes to get around town is a bad thing. I don't have particularly strong feelings about helmet use, and have no inclination to discuss the subject of helmets in an online forum; but his blog offends me, and I'm happy to explain why. He objectifies women! He is, in essence, a professional pornographer, exploiting people for his own self-promotion. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Tan Sidewalls - Rain Problems
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 09:08, JimD rasterd...@comcast.net wrote: I like tires with tan sidewalls to my eye they look greatt but in persistent rainy conditions they turn mucky gray. I consider those grey sidewalls to be a badge of honor, a natural sign of actual usage. Your preferences might vary. When I was a child skateboarder, you could tell the real skaters by whether the paint was worn off the tail of their skateboard deck (we all used plastic rails on the middle part of the deck, but those rails are out of fashion). I remember stories of poseurs who would take a belt sander to the skateboard decks to rapidly achieve this broken-in look. Not unlike the dumbass $200 jeans sold today with the fake distress. I prefer to buy my workwear jeans in dark indigo for $20 a pair; they look nicely broken in after just a few years of regular wearing. I should bottle and sell a compound that instantly turns your sidewalls a studly mottled grey! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Tan Sidewalls - Rain Problems
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:20, David Faller dfal...@charter.net wrote: I don't see why under-maintaining one's bike, car, whatever, is a badge of honor. A skateboard is a pretty low-tech piece of equipment that's designed and built for abuse. My $3,000 bike and it's $100 tires are worthy of some upkeep. Does the muck on the sidewalls lead to reduced tire longevity? James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Shimmy, according to BQ
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 13:25, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: I loaded my 56cm Bombadil with the trunksack small on the Nitto Mini front. I moved the Nitto R-14 rear and the loaded Saddlesack Large over to the Bombadil. The Bombadil does shimmy with that load. But it is at a much higher frequency and a smaller amplitude. The amplitude was almost small enough to just ignore. It also happened at a somewhat higher speed. More notes for the notebook. The R-14 looks to my eye like it would be very flexible. I still think that it is the main culprit here. It would be an interesting experiment to keep everything the same but have the bag on a stiffer rack. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Shimmy, according to BQ
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 16:13, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: The fundamental conclusion I can make already is that front end shimmy at moderate speed no-handed is not a fundamental property of this bicycle. What kind of rear rack do you have? Based on your account, I'm guessing that an overly flexible rear rack is contributing to the shimmy problem on your bike. I really wouldn't expect a bike with the geometry and stout tubing of the Sam Hillborne to shimmy under less than extreme loading, and was surprised to read your account when you first brought it up. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Shimmy, according to BQ NRC
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 04:59, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: Knee to top tube is a highly effective and well known (in my experience) way to stop /speed wobble/ -- as distinguished from shimmy. And speed wobble happens with hands on the bars, in fact can be caused by those hands on the bar (death grip or shivering). In discussions about shimmy (of which there have been many over the years on this and other lists) I have often described a distinction between what I call speed wobble and what I call shimmy. Knee to top tube is effective on shimmy (meaning the oscillation one encounters riding no hands at normal cruising speeds of 15-20 mph), but it's hard to put a knee to top tube while pedaling, so this is of limited application (especially on a fixed gear bike). James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Dec. SoCal Rivendell Ride - Dirt Mulholland/Bay Cities Deli
On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 10:16, cyclotour...@gmail.com cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Looking for a last minute stocking stuffer idea: Hop on your bike and go for a ride with us Saturday morning! Best mixed terrain ride in SoCal! Meeting in Santa Monica @ Peets on Montana 14th. Ride is planned to be underway @ 10:00, so get their early enough to hang out and prepare yourself for the ride by (ogle bike drink espresso!). http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/groups/socal_rivendell_bicycle_appreciation_society/discuss/72157624625801607/ Good Evening RBWers and iBOBers, I am planning to join tomorrow's Santa Monica Mountains ride. I'm hoping for good weather. There were some unwholesome, warm gusty winds while I was coming home from work, but tomorrow's forecast sounds pretty good - highs in the mid-70s with north winds at 1 mph. I'll be taking the white Nishiki with the 37mm Paselas. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: 47 cm Atlantis finds new home
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 19:56, doug peterson dougpn...@cox.net wrote: James Black had a silver Tubus Fly on his Nishiki at our last So Cal Riv ride. I'm thinking that rack would look way cool on the mini- lantis. It's a great rack, but watch the tire clearance if you want to go with fatties and fenders - mine just barely fits over the 50mm-wide fenders. Clearance should be better with 26 wheels. Congrats on the new Atlantis! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Nov SoCal Riv Ride
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:40, rperks perks@gmail.com wrote: and for james, Link to my blog: http://oceanaircycles.com/ Thanks for the link and the write-up - a great account of the day. Sorry to hear of the sickness. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: clear powdercoat, was Re: [RBW] Re: Nov SoCal Riv Ride
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 12:52, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: James, clear powdercoat is quickly becoming one of my favorites. They are just great to look at. I love the raw finish where you can see the manufacture's markings, and builders file marks and even thumb prints! The verdict is still out on whether they are susceptible to rust though. I wonder about that, but I would guess that if you live in inland Southern California, where my bikes never seem to rust, they'll probably do okay. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Nov SoCal Riv Ride
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 07:50, rperks perks@gmail.com wrote: Pics are up, captions, adding to groups etc., and a full write up on my site later tonight. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperks1/sets/72157625263351847/ By the way, I forgot to mention: great photos! Thanks for posting. Can you give us the address of your blog? James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Nov SoCal Riv Ride
On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 19:54, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Lots of pics here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/sets/72157625260156685/with/5173157081/ Another great SoCal Riv Ride! Thanks, David, for the great photos, and to everybody for a fine time. We covered a lot of miles and altitude, with warm weather and no mechanical problems. Looking at Rob's clear powdercoated Roadeo made me want a Roadeo. Such a fine fork bend! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Bar-end Cable Routing?
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 13:47, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: The cross in front also has its trade offs. Another idea for the brave among you, which I recently used on my newly built Nishiki GBUB knockoff porteur: switch the left and right shifters, that is, put the front shifter on the right side and vice-versa. Then you can use the downtube cable stops in the customary arrangement and get the benefit of cleaner housing runs without rubbing against the head tube. James Black -- The 2011 month-at-a-time-view Planner-Calendar, Architecture Burger product AB0612 designed by James Black, is available now. For more information: http://architectureburger.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Bar-end Cable Routing?
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 13:56, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: Don't you find that awfully confusing to use? It does feel weird, but it's also my first time using half-step and my only bike with bar-end shifters, so it would feel weird anyway, and I have no reason to doubt that I'm capable of getting used to it. Since the shifters were seven speed accushift with a friction option and power ratchet for the front shifter, I had a good reason to switch shifters anyway, so that I could use the power ratchet on the rear derailleur and the pure friction setting for the front. I also use my right lever for the front brake on most of my bikes. I'm just a goofy fellow! James Black -- The 2011 month-at-a-time-view Planner-Calendar, Architecture Burger product AB0612 designed by James Black, is available now. For more information: http://architectureburger.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: perennial pants issue
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 10:21, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote: I just saw theses from Jitensha very pricey though. http://www.jitensha.com/eng/knickers.html But, if they fit and function well . that's priceless. I like those! My favorite riding trousers are a pair of woolen thrift store Polo-brand golf trousers. I cut the bottoms off and relocated the adjusty buckles at the waistband to the bottom of the leg. Here in Esteban's photo I was wearing them while adventuring in the Santa Monicas with the Riv Bunch last year: http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671...@n02/3894982599/sizes/o/in/photostream/ I find little need for anything shorter or lighter, as I don't get overheated wearing these knickers even on hot days. Wool jerseys and/or long sleeves, on the other hand, do get me feeling quite warm. I find that a thick fabric works best for me, saddle comfort-wise. I like to ride in boxer shorts and on leather saddles, and thin fabrics can bunch up under my sit bones and chafe, but a thick fabric like reasonably thick wool does not bunch up. I'm always on the lookout at thrift stores, and I have a few pairs of trousers waiting for me to get out the sewing machine. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- The 2011 month-at-a-time-view Planner-Calendar, Architecture Burger product AB0612 designed by James Black, is available now. For more information: http://architectureburger.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:29, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? I don't know about progress, but I view saddle height as a range rather than an absolute. At the top end of the range, you definitely can produce more power, but with the possible downsides of discomfort, injury or fatigue. At the lower end of the saddle-height range, you can generate less power, perhaps, but maybe it's better for longer-range comfort (until you get too low). I think it's probably better for recreational riders to keep their saddles a little relatively lower than competitive riders do. I set my saddle height as high as I can go with it before I start bouncing in the saddle when I'm spinning really fast (as when riding a fixed gear downhill). I could set the saddle a little higher than this and get more leg extension and power, but I don't think the tradeoff is worth it - I get saddle chafing issues with a saddle too high, and that's definitely not worth it. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: B17 vs Team Pro... any direct comparison wisdom?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 16:47, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Bowed across the back, from side to side. You can kinda' see it here. Front to back is pretty flat, with the tail up a touch. B17 are like that, too. I've been pretty happy on Pro-shaped saddles, although I have a Brooks Pro that isn't quite right; my Fujita knockoff of the Pro was my favorite. The critical issue for me seems to be finding a flat (front to back) spot to support my sit bones - if the saddle looks level overall, then the spot where my sit bones goes is pointed down, and I'm sliding forward, which means either I'm sliding forward onto more sensitive parts or I'm resisting sliding forward with my arms, neither of which is comfortable. So when the sitting spot is actually level, the nose is pointed upwards. This is okay, as long as it's not pointed so far upwards that it interferes with sensitive bits. My Pro has a sweet spot where the back is level enough and the front is not too high, and that looks like this: http://james.architectureburger.com/cycle/bin/nish01.jpg The problem I had with my first and only B17 was that it was too saddle-shaped - I couldn't find a tilt that worked, I was always either sliding forward or the nose was in the way of sensitive anatomy. I think that not all B17s are the same and maybe I would be better off on a different one, but I'm not sure. I had a B17 narrow, and maybe it was too narrow - it seemed like I couldn't keep away from the rivets. So the Pro is the only one that worked for me. I would be interested to try the Swift and the Berthoud, because judging by eyeball alone, they look to me like they would work. I guess if my email has a point to it, however, it's that you don't know if a saddle is going to work until you ride it and experiment with the tilt. Until I spent some time on rigid leather saddles, I had no idea how saddles were supposed to work - in my foam-over-plastic saddle days, I just sat down without thinking about it (and not always with great results). James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Check this Bombadil!
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 20:05, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote: This looks great. I wonder if it's more expensive. http://www.rivbike.com/assets/payloads/358/original_sept_9.pdf Whoa, that's great! Just what I would want in a production Rivendell. If my ship comes in, I will buy one. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Check this Bombadil!
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 21:52, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote: And FYI, I had a Christina Hendrick-less version of the Bombadil pdf ready to go if there was any... offense, or umbrage, or something else taken. You're a brave man. I will now elaborate on why I like this new Bombadil, and not just because Grant has told us that we don't need to tell him we like it; but because my first message didn't say much. First of all, the fork is perfect. Even a Long Haul Trucker would be a thing of beauty if it had that fork attached to it. Whoever is responsible for specifying or fabricating the bend of that fork deserves a beer. Second, of all the bikes in the world, this may be the only one that conceptually ought to have that decorative Hetchins-y curly downtube extension. Because of the Bombadil's Anglophile heritage, and because of its robust baroque uniqueness, and because it proudly has every braze-on and every feature, including an extra diagatube. I perceive this new Bombadil, purely based on its image in this grainy PDF alone, as the next great bike in the heritage of Rivendell production framesets, following in the path of the Atlantis, Rambouillet, and Quickbeam. I bet it won't shimmy. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: VO 50.4 BCD Crankset is here
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 11:00, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: I guess I'm one of the fixated, although I wouldn't call it a fixation. I prefer to buy things in my size, and I've determined through experience that 172.5 is my best size. I now use 170, after having tried also 165 and 175. There is no question in my mind that one can easily feel the 2.5mm difference, but I find it hard to believe that it's more inherently significant than a matter of what one is used to. I'm sure if I switched from 170 to either 167.5 or 172.5 I would get accustomed to it, and then be just fine after I got used to it. Do those of you so devoted to 172.5 think that you would not get used to 170 or 175 if you gave it enough time? I do recognize it would be inconvenient to switch over one's entire fleet. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv's Retreat from 650B in Larger Sizes, Optimum Tire Pressures/Sizes
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 05:06, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: So where's the champion? Did I say there was a champion? I ordered a pair of 700x37mm non-TG Paselas for the build I'm currently working on, and expect they will be pretty good, so the situation isn't totally dire for us poor saps who have to use 700c. Then why are the fans of wide 700C tires gnashing their teeth with envy? The situation isn't totally dire, but it is half-dire. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv's Retreat from 650B in Larger Sizes, Optimum Tire Pressures/Sizes
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 20:44, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: While I think that sounds like the perfect tire, how many non touring or hybrid bikers are out there that can accommodate that size? Even among Rivendell's lineup, the lighter weight bikes (Roadeo, Rambouillet) wouldn't be able to run that size. You would need to get a Sam or an Atlantis. Not sure about the AHH, but it would be close, and probably not with fenders. If somebody did come out with a really nice 700c x 38mm tire similar to a Pari-Moto or Hetre, there would be plenty of interest in it, and lots of people would want their (larger-sized) Rivendells to accommodate it, I suspect. There are many existing Rivendells that won't fit such a tire, but if the tire existed, I think that designers like Rivendell would be compelled to design around it. I ordered a pair of 700x37mm non-TG Paselas for the build I'm currently working on, and expect they will be pretty good, so the situation isn't totally dire for us poor saps who have to use 700c. Incidentally, this bike I'm putting together is the one I would use for an epic fire road venture up into the Santa Ana Mountains, and I hope I can do that ride this autumn. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv's Retreat from 650B in Larger Sizes, Optimum Tire Pressures/Sizes
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 21:18, Jim Cloud cloud...@aol.com wrote: I stand by my comment that the traditional 650B size tire, as it was used by the French was generally for loaded touring bikes - which they often referred to as the Camping model. If some today are using the size for a Randonneur, so be it, I really am not trying to state that the 650B cannot be used on a Randonneur (nor that it wasn't ever used on a French Randonneur model, but it wasn't the norm). In Jan Heine's book, there are a bunch of Randonneur-type bikes with 650b tires, although there may be more that had 700c - it seemed like Alex Singer preferred to build around 700c for this type of bike, but a lot of the other builders were using 650b. I could believe that 700c was the majority preference, but my impression (and I'm no authority) is that 650b was not out of the norm, that both sizes were common. As far as the wider type of 700C tire that I'm suggesting it certainly would be better suited to a bicycle of my size (65-66cm) than the 650B. I would agree. For bikes in the size I prefer (61cm), I think it can go both ways, although I've never had the privilege of trying out a bike with 650b wheels. I do generally subscribe to the principle that the biggest wheel diameter that you can fit will give best performance. How big you can fit depends on frame size as well as usage (tire width, fenders, chainstay length, etc.). I found the article in BQ arguing that there is an optimal gyroscopic force that limits optimal diameter to be pretty unconvincing. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Shimmy!
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:32, Bob Cooper robertcoo...@frontiernet.net wrote: Jobst is the only person who has shed enough light on this problem of mine that, when I actually apply his advise, it has an effect. All praise to Jobst for that post to the FAQ all those years ago. http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/shimmy.html We have discussed shimmy at much length over on the iBOB list. My opinion is that there is a distinction between what I term speed wobble, which is what you get coasting down a hill at very high speeds, and shimmy, which is what you get when you ride along at 16 mph no-hands. In terms of physics, they might be the same phenomenon, but it seems like bikes are often prone to one or the other, so I think there is good basis for the distinction. I think low-trail bikes are more prone to shimmy, and high-trail bikes relatively more prone to speed wobble. I would expect Rivendells to be more prone to speed wobble - the high trail geometries that started to supplant lower trail geometries a few decades ago seem to have been motivated in part by a desire to eliminate garden-variety shimmy. Pretty much all my bikes exhibit shimmy under some circumstances, and most of my road bikes can shimmy if I ride along no-hands, even when coasting. It's hard to imagine that it's something I am doing as a rider if I am not even pedaling. My low-trail bikes all shimmy riding no-hands, particularly when loaded. Flexible racks contribute to this phenomenon. My mid-trail Centurion hasn't shimmied, but I also don't have any racks on it. I did find recently a slight speed wobble while coasting down a steep hill, though. My 20-wheeled Swift Folder is the only bike I have that has never shimmied, but it's a fixed gear, so I have never tried going 40 mph down a hill on it. My 20-wheeled cargo bike shimmies ferociously, so I know it's not the wheel size, but the frame flex characteristics. I think Jobst's description is lacking, because it only addresses the speed wobble aspect, and not the shimmy aspect of this phenomenon. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Spring Fender Spacing Thingy
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 15:03, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: I have looked around and do not see where any of the usual suspects sell such a thing. Are the mechanics cobbling this together? If so, anyone come across a blog or youtube showing how? In case you want to see another spring thing, I have a picture of the spring on the Berthoud fenders on my Nishiki: http://james.architectureburger.com/cycle/nishiki.html James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Spring Fender Spacing Thingy
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 16:45, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Thanks James. So as Angus you use a thin bolt inside a robust spring. Like the concave washers on either side of the chain stay bridge. That's correct, but truth be told, the spring, not so robust, is largely cosmetic - the fender is squeezed between the chainstays, and therefore would push itself away from the chainstay bridge even without the coil spring. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Snob in Rivendell!
On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 08:51, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: I will wear my nerd badge with honor! I take issue only with the proposed design. I salute you, sir. I only wish you could have seen me ride to work this morning on my 49cc Honda Ruckus scooter wearing a white full-face helmet and a Blaklader model 8739 workwear jacket. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Snob in Rivendell!
On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 09:12, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: Was it an epic ride? It was 3 miles - my year of commuting an epic 32 miles round-trip abruptly ended three weeks ago. Now the only thing epic I see during the week is burritos. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Snob in Rivendell!
On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:47, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Curious: how and where is that 50 cc scooter an advantage over a nice bike? Seriously, because I have thought of a scooter for some time. I'll answer on list, just in case anybody read Patrick's inquiry and is burning with curiosity, but please direct any further comments about motor vehicles off-list, as they are off-topic. I prefer riding bicycles to riding the scooter, but I try to ride the scooter at least once every couple of weeks because it does not like to sit too long without the engine being started. The key advantage to the scooter is that I can go 10 or 20 miles on it without showing up someplace all unpresentably sweaty. I find it pretty uncomfortable if I have to spend an hour on it, though. The other advantage to owning a scooter, as opposed to owning no motor vehicle at all, is that employers and similar people perceive you as a freak if you own no motor vehicle, and doubt your ability to carry out your job if it requires you to travel; owning a motorbike mitigates that perception. But I can't say I would miss it much if it were gone. Working at a construction trailer 16 miles from home four days a week until mid-May of this year, I rode the scooter to work only once, and rode bicycles every other day. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Pacenti Pari-Moto 650B Tires?
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 09:20, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: I certainly do not debate this point. My understanding of the Pari- Moto, however, is that it may not by design necessarily be robust enough to handle off-road as well as other tires on the market. From what I read,Kirk does not appear to have designed the tire with off- road in mind. I would hate to see riders criticizing the tire for not being able to do what he meant it to do. We know the tire was designed to be lightweight, and will necessarily be less durable than some heavier tires, but we can't establish by analysis how much less durable. No amount of debate is going to determine whether the tire will be fragile or durable on rough roads - experience will prove that. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Pacenti Pari-Moto 650B Tires?
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 15:46, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: I realize that I had a small part in financing the pari-moto project by preordering, and I'm happy to support Kirk. That's why I pre- ordered my pair. It's just kind of a burn that I can buy a pair today from VO, and actually pay 50 cents less for shipping, and probably get them sooner. I'll certainly get over it. I'm super excited about the tires. On behalf of those of us who did not preorder the Pari-Moto but might want to buy a pair one day, I offer my thanks and appreciation to those of you who did preorder them. You may have lost 50 cents, but you have done a good deed. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Diagonapillar blueprints revealed
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 15:54, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: The Hunqapage on the Rivsite now has a photo of the design sheet for the Diagonal 2TT. http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/hunqapillar/50-713 Interesting. I kind of like it, even though I didn't expect to. Do I see a palimpsest of a third set of stays between the dropout and the back of the 2tt? James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Opinion on Potential Sale of 1985 Trek 720
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 14:38, Bob linthi...@gmail.com wrote: What do you think this bike is worth, ballpark? I know this is probably dreaming, but I think it would take at least $2500 for me to part with her. It seems somehow unfair for this bike to hang in my basement for much longer. I'm not sure I think this is really on topic, but I'd wager your bike would fetch about $800 on eBay. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: WAS: Touring Advice NOW: Mirror Poll
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 06:03, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: James: Where do you live? Chicago here. While I agree mirrors are very useful on the open road and even in suburban Chicago with long spacing between intersections. Chicago itself has relatively short city blocks (not all are uniform but 1/10th of a mile is the approximate measure) and (argg!) some sort of traffic control at nearly every intersection. At most my rearward area of concern is around 500 feet. Your mileage may vary. I live in Los Angeles (incidentally, I spent four years in Hyde Park way back when) where I'm usually riding on the larger avenues and boulevards. I find that using the mirror allows me to see what's behind me quicker and with more accuracy than I could without it. I typically do an actual head turn only when I want a driver behind me to see me doing the head turn as a kind of implicit signal that I'm going to do something. Knowing more about my surroundings makes me both safer and more courteous toward other road users, and increases my control over my situation. I know that a mirror on a bicycle takes some getting used to, a few hundred miles at least; but I find it essential. To those that doubt it, try driving your car without using the rear view mirrors at all, and see if you miss them. Last year when my helmet mirror broke and I rode 100 miles without one, I felt pitifully naked. Actually, it was kind of fun, because I felt like a shark that could only move forward and couldn't care less what's coming behind me, but the tradeoff isn't worth it, in my opinion. I also would absolutely choose the mirror before a helmet when it comes to keeping safe. In my initial comment in which I said I would recommend them to anyone who rides in traffic, cares about their safety and the quality of their riding, and wants every advantage they can get, what I really meant was to exclude people who don't place a priority on these things, for example, cyclists who ride in city traffic while listening to their iPods. I know an iPod cyclist isn't going to heed and consider a mirror. Sure, listening to an iPod doesn't guarantee you'll be squashed, but it tells me that awareness of your surroundings and being fully engaged in your cycling is not your thing. Philosophically, I would advocate being fully engaged in whatever activity you perform. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] WAS: Touring Advice NOW: Mirror Poll
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:31, Jon Grant jgr...@papagrant.com wrote: I’m for it. Helmet visor mount. I can see lots more than with a h-bar mounted one, just by turning my head a bit. Sometimes when I’m off the bike, I find myself swiveling my head about to get a better look behind me, wishing I had a rear-view mirror all the time. Same here. I'm tempted to switch to eyeglass-mounted mirrors for that reason. I use a helmet-mounted mirror, and absolutely recommend them to anyone who rides in traffic, cares about their safety and the quality of their riding, and wants every advantage they can get. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] WAS: Touring Advice NOW: Mirror Poll
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 20:20, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: But ... not all who care greatly about the safety and quality and anxiety-free quality of their very urban traffic riding choose to use mirrors; not quarreling, just pointing out the fact. (Beside, not wearing glasses or helmet, and finding bar mount mirrors useless ...) Okay, but I still recommend them to you. And you continue to defy me! You need a headband-mount mirror. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Diagonapillar
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:48, happyriding happyrid...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh, yeah. Here is james black's suggested tube orientation--the two triangles are better than one geometry: http://www.flickr.com/photos/49416...@n00/4494282750/ Thanks for mocking that up! It doesn't look as good as I had imagined when I described it - with a longer headtube, it would only improve. But I still think it looks better, more sensible and organic in a way, than any of the other schemes - except for the the campeur-style with the added stays, which I think would be a brilliant choice! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Ventura Ride Report
Thanks for the photos, SoCal Riv Riders - looks like that was a beautiful ride! I feel gratified every time you're showing that Southern California isn't so terrible a place for bike riding after all. I will join you again one of these days. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Diagonapillar
On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 21:30, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: Midpoint of headtube to midpoint of seat tube. Sorta mixte-like. (Jim Thrill/Hiawatha said...) Have you all considered running the 2tt from bottom of head tube to top of seat tube? This arrangement would give the best triangulation, and avoid putting a bending stress on the middle of any tubes, where the stresses of bending moments would be highest. I also think this would give a better appearance (primarily because it would have the most triangulated appearance - it's the most direct way to cut that front diamond-shape in the frame into two triangles, and optimum engineering solutions just have a way of looking right). James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] More Orange-a-Pillar Info
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 19:26, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: Grant forwarded me a pdf with some more official and closer images of the grey/orange Hunqapiller. It has some musings, as well as detail images of connectors and the fork (which I didn't photograph). Thanks, Jim. I think it looks Hunqa-awesome. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Reading Chairs
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 17:41, Joe Bunik jbu...@gmail.com wrote: James, how could you neglect to mention the photo of your EA 124 on your NCT 001 ?!? http://james.architectureburger.com/cycle/cyclebin/cargo508.jpg Ha! Does that mean this thread is no longer off-topic? I'm a great fan of the work of Charles and Ray Eames - they get my vote for the Designer of the Century contest. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] A virtual sales brochure, and special offer
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 16:46, John Bennett johnat...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/190 Hunqapillar looks great! I'm glad it's the color of elephant. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:34, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote: This has gotten ridiculous. Grant's post ended with an expression of concern that he shouldn't have said anything. I imagine it might be a bit before he does again and I for one find that unfortunate. TCO is an offense? Honestly. This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of us who do. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:42, james black chocot...@gmail.com wrote: This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of us who do. And by the way - I joined in this discussion not because it gives me pleasure to fight with Grant Petersen, but because I think it's important for him and others to be aware of the perspective of people like myself (prospective customers). James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:00, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote: I will admit that I simply do not understand the sentiment that TCO is an offense. I believe that word choice is inflammatory and honestly insulting to the designers and builders of these bicycles. I also admit that I cannot understand the heated reaction to Grant's post. As always, we have options when we purchase bicycles. If a particular builder is committing an offense by designing bicycles the way they believe best, perhaps we should look elsewhere. Sorry, I used the word offense and didn't mean it to be inflammatory - I mean it in the same sense that I would use the word offensive to describe a lingering bad odor in a room I just entered. I consider TCO an annoyance, and fairly mild, but it would annoy me on a continuing basis if I had to deal with it. And I agree, all customers should consider how important TCO is to them when selecting a bike. That's why I wanted this perspective given proper consideration by Grant and others in the business of designing bikes for customers! I've read many reports over the years of people falling from their bikes because of TCO. It hasn't happened to me, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone that the thing that made them fall over was purely user error and not an attribute of bicycle design. Further, I submit that the heated reaction you perceive was essentially begged for by Grant's comment, and he knew it was coming, and we gave it to him. And he probably did regret it in the morning, as he said he would. And I think I've now said all I have to say on this stimulating topic. Thanks, James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 22:32, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote: I think there are a number of us who want our cake and get to eat it too: sporty fast geometry with 45 mm tires, full fenders and no TCO. I'd say pick two. Some enchiladas can't be readily served whole. What we're talking about is a matter of how much value to place on various attributes. I understand that many of you will come to a reasoned point of view that the drawbacks of going to a smaller wheel size outweigh the benefits of eliminating TCO. Nearly every bike company makes some bikes with TCO. But there are also many cyclists who share my point of view that the benefits of the larger diameter wheel do not outweigh the disadvantage of TCO. Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated. I am mildly annoyed and feel vaguely insulted by the point of view I sometimes encounter that TCO is an imaginary problem, or that I'm some kind of dimwit because it bothers me. There are other cyclists (customers) like me - bike designers should be attentive to this fact. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: SoCal Rivendell Riders ( Friends) Ride - January 31st
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 20:46, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: If it's pictures you want, then it's pictures you'll get: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/sets/72157623199952479/ Awesome ride, guys! James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] SoCal Rivendell Riders ( Friends) Ride - Feb 21
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:14, Dustin Sharp dsh...@runbox.com wrote: Not sure if you all get to call these SoCal anymore since they all seem to be in the LA area. I don't have a car, so riding anywhere too far from home adds a substantial hurdle. I'd love to be out doing more riding in those other counties, though! I haven't had much of an off-pavement bike for a while, but I'm planning to set something up so that I can enjoy future dirt rides. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Pre-Rivendell Ride Pics
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 18:01, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote: I just got around to uploading a series of shots from one of my favorite rides in the Topanga/Santa Monica Mtns. area. The ride culminates in a great climb up Stunt Road. Looks like great ride! I'm planning to make a few changes to my Centurion road bike to make it more hill-and-dirt friendly, and then I'll finally have a bike with derailleurs that I can take up into the mountains for these kinds of rides. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: I was hit by car - brief request for help - slightly on-topic
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 07:25, Gary g...@worldcyclotour.com wrote: In my opinion from what I've learned - you may be at fault. Riding, passing on the right through an intersection and not merging into the lane with traffic where you probably should have been. There was no bike lane marked and even if there was, given the circumstance, you still should have merged into the proper lane with traffic and taken your turn through the intersection. Gary, Seems to me that as Tim commented, Jim was riding on the right side of the road, as the vehicle code requires, and thus using the road in a lawful manner; and the SUV turning left was under the obligation to turn left only when the way is clear of all oncoming traffic. The fact that they collided indicates that the SUV failed to make sure the way was clear. The fact that Jim might have been able to prevent this by riding differently does not mean he is at fault. In Courtesy Gap collisions, it can be very difficult to see for both parties, so it doesn't seem right to point to the SUV and say their driving was necessarily negligent. But I don't see how the law can find it another way. Kind of like in a rear-end collision - the law is supposed to find the rear-ender always at fault (even if the car in front stopped suddenly without warning). James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Hunqapiller news
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 09:17, Jim M. mather...@gmail.com wrote: Here's Grant's piece on naming/paint/graphics: http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicycle_making/graphics Good stuff! This was interesting: Brand or model names shouldn't sound like inside jokes thought up over beer pizza. Personally I think Atlantis, Quickbeam, Bombadil, and Rambouillet are the best model names RBW has used. Rambouillet especially - the combination of the name, decals, headbadge, color, and the bike concept/design, was a perfect storm of awesome. The Quickbeam and Atlantis are modern, genre-defining classics. The Bombadil is thoroughly charming with its doubled top tube and English-style curly lug extensions. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Hunqapiller news
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 17:00, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps you could explain how Rivendell has drifted away from the ideals stated below. There is nothing road-ish of off-road-ish about them. Rivendell has always been a personal expression of velosophy for Grant which is full of contradictions, idiosyncrasies, quirks and all of the qualities you stated below. That is what drew me to Rivendell and that is what makes me so happy to own one. Rivendell is wonderfully idiosyncratic, and that's one of the things we all love about them, right? (I wouldn't think anybody hostile to idiosyncrasy would even be on this list) Rivendell's emphases, styles, and identity have, however, shifted markedly over the last decade and a half. It makes sense that each of us like some of those changes and dislike others. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Hunqapiller news
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 17:02, Ron MH visio...@gmail.com wrote: What the heck kind of name is Hunqapiller? For once, I immediately liked this name Hunqapiller. That feels weird to type! I like this a lot better than the imaginary people names used for many other recent models. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Hunqapiller news
http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news_post/187 Hunqapiller news. Awesome artwork! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] California 2010 El Niño Event Ride Report s
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 18:32, Esteban proto...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe some folks are getting out in the winter squall coming off the Pacific? I did my 15.7 mile commute through Los Angeles this morning on my cargo bike, and it was one of the wettest rides I've ever done. The Carradice Rain Cape left me mostly soaked with a few dry spots, rather than 100% soaked. It's going to be a fun couple of weeks. I need a better chain lube. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Free: Cleated Paramount Road Shoes
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 16:31, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Patrick et al, there is a winner from the bicycle friendly city of Portland, the Amsterdam of the the Pacific Northwest (minus the legalized soft drugs and prostitution, canals, health care, employment, etc). If that falls through Mr. Moore would be Jan Ulrich to the winning Lance Armstrong in this edition of the TdF. I hope that if they don't work out for Mr. Portland, Mr. Moore will get them next. Patrick generously sent me a pair of Sidi Cyclocross shoes free for the cost of shipping back in May 2001, after getting them from iBOB Craig Sandvik and finding them too small. I've still got them, even, although they are falling apart (I mean, exhibiting beausage, which you should all know how to pronounce now after reviewing the latest Reader!). James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Riv Custom
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 14:37, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote: I just uploaded a few more shots of the bike pre-maiden voyage. I can't really do justice to the paint. To say it exceeded my expectations is an understatement. http://www.flickr.com/photos/17053...@n02/sets/72157623222577144/ Brad, That is a very nice bike, and very pretty. I hope I run into you around town some day so I can see it! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Now: IT Band Was: Goals for 2010
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:08, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-04 at 10:43 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote: Two more essential comments: one, no I don't want to use multiple gears and, two, I **love** fixed gear climbing, really! Certainly better than slogging angrily on the flats or spinning vainly and despairingly downhill. Those, I take it, are the three choices riding fixed offers you? No, there's slogging angrily uphill and spinning despairingly on the flats and standing on downhills. You're making an excellent case for the profound, slogging-based pleasures of the fixed gear. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Goals for 2010
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 14:29, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: So anybody got a list up and running??? Goal #1 - go to 50 different Los Angeles-area taquerias this year. I'll ride my bike to some of them. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Roadeo!
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 14:59, J. Douglas Way d...@mines.edu wrote: I'm used to this look anyway as the Ti bike I've been riding has an up sloping stem as well. My preference would be for a larger frame, to reduce the amount of exposed seatpost and decrease the amount that the stem needs to lift the bars above the frame. But that's about aesthetics, more than function. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Bar Bags and Roadeos
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 15:43, Dustin N. Sharp dsh...@runbox.com wrote: No, but if you can hit a second audience by simply offering another fork, why not? Randonneuring is growing, and Francophilia is in vogue. The tubing spec and other aspects of the frame would make a good fastish Brevet bike. I would also prefer a lower-trail geometry on a bike like this, but on the other hand, Rivendell's geometry works well too, and I have to appreciate that Rivendell has stuck to their guns and not jumped onto the trendy bandwagon of low-trail geometry. On the other other hand, I think low-trail geometry is more than a trendy bandwagon, and is in fact actually superior. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Bar Bags and Roadeos
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 20:49, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Why is this, exactly? I know it is better for front loads, but apart from front loads, are there advantages? I ask because all three Rivs I have owned have handled impeccably; I can't think of any improvement to them. It's a matter of personal preference - there is wide agreement that frontal loads work better with handlebar bags, but without such a load, bikes handle pretty well either way. My comment was not meant to evangelize against the Rivendell geometry, but rather to express that there is some intrinsic merit to the Francophile geometry beyond mere trendiness. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Bar Bags and Roadeos
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 20:53, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: So why would low trail be better for me with my rear loads up to 40 lb? Steve didn't say it would be. There seems to be widespread agreement that high trail is better for rear-biased loads, and low trail better for front-biased loads. If you aren't familiar with front-biased loads on a low-trail bike, I suggest you give it a try and compare for yourself. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] A poll: Long distance riding with uprights?
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:54, b hamon periwinkle...@yahoo.com wrote: Just curious how many Riv riders do their longer-distance (40+ miles) with upright handlebars? And among these, how many have only upright bars on their bikes? I have Nitto Promenade swept-back bars on my cargo bike, but find that I am signficantly less comfortable on longer rides than I am with drop bars. I suspect it's not the lack of hand positions per se, but the fact that I am sitting more upright most of the time. Drop bars let me have more of a difference between upright on the tops, down low in the drops, and in between (where I am most of the time). James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] a study in contrasts
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 22:51, rswat...@me.com rswat...@me.com wrote: Be glad you used FedEx rather than UPS. That's pretty minor. A few minutes with some pliers and it's ridable. UPS would have bent the frame beyond repair! ( provided they didn't lose the box completely. ) Plus they'd have charged you twice as much and taken twice as long. I once bought a bike that was shipped to me UPS. Three weeks after it was sent, I was delivered a small cardboard box with the pedals, saddle and seatpost, and few other odds and ends in it. They claimed that was all that the seller had sent to me. The seller denied this, pointing out that the receipt indicated he had indeed shipped a large box weighing more than 30 pounds. He initiated a claim process, and nothing much happened. About two months later, UPS suddenly delivered the rest of the bike to me in its original box, without explanation. No damage, at least. James Black -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis and Bleriot sightings
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 17:54, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: Nice collection of lugged goodness. But I seem to detect a theme for their bike builds: extra long stem extensions and bar height far in excess of saddle height. Looks like many of those folks would be positioned like they're driving a bus. I agree - I think most of these people appear to have frames that are too small, based on too much seat post extension as well as the tall stems. I wouldn't go there for a fitting. I do hope it's working out for the customers. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Our New Bike Catalog Is On The Site
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 19:27, doug peterson dougpn...@cox.net wrote: Hey, try to find beaussage in the dictionary - it's all part of the charm. I love the BW photos! I think it's pretty awesome that google finds 2,920 hits for the world beausage. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: panniers
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 14:08, Bill Connell bconn...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks! Once you've made a saddlebag or two, you really appreciate the amount of work that goes into the Rivendell (and Carradice and Acorn, etc., etc.) bags. It's not as simple as you think, and there are a lot of little details that make a big difference in usability. That's so true! I recently got my first sewing machine and tried to make a saddlebag based on a design I dreamt up; kept modifying it in an effort to make it work; and eventually abandoned the whole project. You've done great! James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Dromarti shoes
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 06:31, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote: Nice, but expensive. Anyone seen or tried these? http://www.dromarti.com/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=10_14products_id=16 I've also been wondering about this Qouc Pham shoe: http://www.quocpham.com/products/fs0904.html Cheaper at 90 GBP (VAT included, I don't know?), and not as good looking to my eye as the Dromarti, but they might do well for toe clip users. James Black Los Angeles, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 16:46, John Stoesser jstoes...@comcast.net wrote: This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford. It seems rash to jump to the conclusion that Rivendell's custom paint job is no match for the one that Waterford would give you, based on hearsay from one guy. I would suggest you withhold judgment until you see the photos yourself. Perhaps William House is pickier than you? Anyways, William House, I urge you to post some careful photos. I am sorry that you were disappointed, but as you see from John's post, criticizing Rivendell publicly on a forum like this has the potential to cost Rivendell thousands of dollars in sales. I don't think that was your intention, so let's see the photos so everyone can evaluate for themselves, and thereby absolve yourself of the responsibility for damaging Rivendell's reputation. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 20:22, William F. House williamfho...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, I was going to wait until the weekend to post pics, but I've snapped a few tonight with the bike under the lights in our kitchen. Thanks for the pics. My reaction is that I probably would not have thought to complain had I received a bike from Rivendell with paint like that (still so much better than the crude lug outlining on my old Nishikis!), but it seems not unreasonable that you would have had higher expectations and be thus disappointed. But I'm not sure what I would expect Rivendell to do in this case. Would I expect them to reject the bike when they receive it from the painter and inspect it? Probably not, it's still better than most paint jobs. This is an awkward customer service issue for Rivendell. James Black --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Yet another Rivendell-style product recommendation request: sunglasses
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 18:50, kent broken.cy...@gmail.com wrote: Any recommendations as to something simple, durable, classic: a more Rivvish solution? Yes! I highly recommend Shuron: http://shuron.com/ Made in the USA since 1865. They have styles similar to Wayfarer and Aviator, as well as the timeless Ronsir style that Shuron innovated decades ago, and that I affectionately think of as eyebrowboy. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: RBW sizing compared to Surly KM
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 07:26, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: So you're thinking 20 is better? That's why I asked the Bicycle Experts Inc. Does it make a difference that I'm planning on using Midge/Gary bars? I would suggest the 20 for you. I used to have a 20 SKM with dirt drop bars, for reference: http://james.architectureburger.com/cycle/skm.html I had to use a short stem and a bunch of spacers to get the drop bar where I needed it. The 18 might have worked better for me for standover clearance mountain biking, but the 20 was fine. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Roadeo art
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 18:45, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote: I just noticed this posted on the Riv website: http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/155 The art does help me to like a name that I initially did not like. I have to commend Rivendell for their decal and headbadge artwork - I don't know who designs it, but one bike after another it has been outstanding, and contributes to that unmistakeable Rivendell corporate identity. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: The myth of the all-rounder.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 20:27, JLsubfas...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone been able to achieve a one-bike-for-everything-I-need goal? I think part of the situation is that with enthusiasts of anything the line between need and want gets blurry. Every time I'm about to start my ride and I discover that a tire has gone flat or a spoke gone and broken, I am thankful that I have had the good sense to keep more than one functioning bicycle. One can spend a lot of time thinking about how, if one could have, for example, three bikes, what's the best way to distribute their functions to create that most efficient Venn Diagram that covers all necessities. I've had the commuter UJB road bike, the fixed-gear folding bike, and the custom cargo bike for the last few years - these are pretty different from one another. But now I don't have an off-road bike. None of them are quite enough beater-like for me to be really comfortable leaving them locked up in the city. None is presently set up for touring, and none of them have derailleurs, even. Back to the drawing board? I need more bikes. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: September SoCal Riv Ride in Santa Monica
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 22:29, David Estescyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Fantastic ride, from about 10:30 - 4:00??? Tire of choice (chosen by choosy cyclists!) was a 35mm Pasela. We rode across Santa Monica and up Sepulveda to Mulholland. This was an excellent ride, with a great bunch of guys. I felt like I was experiencing that ideal world of hills, fire roads and country bikes that I see in those splash photos on RBW's website. Thanks to the organizers, and thanks for the Flickr photos. I look forward to the next adventure. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Cutting a Pletscher Kickstand?
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 23:19, 40_Acresmgla...@gmail.com wrote: I'm about to install a Pletscher single kickstand on my 57 AHH (with the kickstand plate), and it looks a bit long to me. Has anyone had to cut one of these stands down to size? If so, how much did you cut? Thanks in advance! Advice for any kickstand user, especially if you have accidentally cut your kickstand too short - get a Greenfield rubber kickstand foot. It effectively makes your kickstand a little longer. Consider ordering a few extras, because they allegedly wear out, although mine haven't yet (on a two-legged Pletscher stand). James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Tour de San Diego Ride Report - So Cal Rive Ride
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 19:33, Estebanproto...@gmail.com wrote: Photos! http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671...@n02/sets/72157621935319991/ That looks like it was a most pleasant excursion. The Cycles Noel is a real beauty! Is there a date selected for next month's ride? I'm interested. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Quickbeams are here
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 15:33, cm chrispmur...@hotmail.com wrote: Sneak peak can be found here. We are building and shipping them AQAP. http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-150 I like the color scheme a lot! It reminds me of the classic Nishiki Professional scheme seen here: http://home.mchsi.com/~shufford/nishiki.html James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Alert: Baggins Bonanza. 3 Cartwrights and more spotted on eBay.
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 20:00, David Estes cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Seller Highly Trusted is trying to make a few extra $$$ outside of ebay's fee structure. Those bags (well, maybe not the Hoss) can be stuffed into a Priority Shipping flat rate box. Hi David: I wish to offer my perspective to the list on this issue, as an occasional seller of things. Here's why - compare shipping versus having somebody magically come to your door and take the bag, which should be free of charge. You have to procure a box, pack up the bag into the box, possibly apply packing materials and tape, fill out a shipping label, go to the post office, pay for postage, either pay for insurance or take the risk that it won't arrive (self-insuring), deal with confirming arrival Compared to a no-ship transaction, a reasonable mind might conclude that the cost of all this handling is way more than $10.00 above the cost of shipping. One might eat this cost if making profit on the item otherwise, but there's no way you could pay me $10 to take this on for you. James Black Los Angeles, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Alert: Baggins Bonanza. 3 Cartwrights and more spotted on eBay.
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 20:40, David Estes cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Point taken, but it still bugs me. Antithesis to my way of selling things, especially on ebaby. I don't include my labor in the cost of a sale. That's overhead and is included in the sale price, whether fixed on auction. Hi David: I'm not really sure why we disagree on this, and I won't go on and on about this, but here's one more. I prefer to offer things for sale on, e.g., the iBOB list (assuming an item that fits in a flat rate box), with a flat price that includes shipping, which I feel best reflects that shipping cost and my overhead and labor are flat, and does not try to confuse a buyer by making them do any math. Surely you will agree that this is a bona fide and fair approach. However I feel that it is inappropriate to take this approach on eBay, because then I am paying eBay's fees on shipping, which eBay does not deserve. Likewise, I think it is fair to add an additional handling charge, because if I don't, all those handling costs that one absorbs are also being taxed by eBay. Charging a handling charge, stated clearly up front, does not hurt the buyer, but represents a reasonable kind of tax deduction on eBay's fees, and also provides a way to offer a discount above and beyond the actual postage fee to local buyers who save me valuable time and energy. So I would encourage you (and others) not to judge harshly those buyers who quote a reasonable handling charge above and beyond the price of actual postage. James --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
upcoming rides was Re: [RBW] Re: things I like about Rivendell (ride report hijack)
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: The other resource which I've found to be considerably helpful is Flickr, as it provides an extremely intuitive way to group images into topics and allows for discussions. The SoCal Riv Gang has been all over that in planning rides, etc. (and I want to publicly encourage them to keep posting their upcoming ride announcements to this list... and I'm hoping someday to connect on one of their rides.) Please do keep posting here, as it's vastly preferable not to have to go to Flickr just to find out what's going on with these, and I was pondering a trip down to the OC for the next ride. Is the itinerary set? Is anybody planning to head down there from Los Angeles or environs? James Black Westside Los Angeles --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: Get Your Email Update Here
I have not received an email update from Rivendell for, I don't know, three years? But I used to receive them regularly. I wonder if Rivendell lost a bunch of addresses somehow? So it is good that these be posted to the lists, and I suggest that somebody at Rivendell send it to the iBOB list as well. I do appreciate the updates, particularly since we don't get Readers like we used to, and it has felt like we seldom hear from Grant's and Rivendell's unique perspective. And there was a lot of good and informative stuff in this update. Changing the subject, I want to say that I really like the Sackville bags. I would absolutely buy one if my financial situation were rosier. I think the metal tags are an especially nice touch. Furthermore, I really like the Bombadil, despite my reservations about it; and for that reason, my opinion is that Rivendell's stock frameset options are better than ever. Cheers, James Black Los Angeles, CA On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:27 PM, David Estes cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: Mine was lost in the tubes as well... On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:35 PM, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: Hey there John - Thanks for posting that to the list. I definitely did not get it, checked all of my filters, etc. You may be sending them from a server on a blocked list, which would prevent it from getting through the mail servers. I'd research that a bit more, but I'm running out the door. Good update. Formatting got slightly wonky on the resend in my mail program, but it was only like a word or two on a separate line. Easily dealt with. There was some content clipped - In the part on the Chinese shoes. good job! - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Current Classics Bicycle Photo Gallery - http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc Cross Bike Photo Gallery - http://www.cyclofiend.com/cx Single Speed Garage Photo Gallery - http://www.cyclofiend.com/ssg Working Bikes Practical Hardware - http://www.cyclofiend.com/working Work Shops of the iBob's - http://www.cyclofiend.com/shop Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcome; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace. William Gibson - All Tomorrow's Parties -- Cheers, David Redlands, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
