subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Grant on Brian Lehrer"

If the best you can do is not resist the upstroke while spinning on a
descent, how can you possibly pull up while climbing a hill?

On Jul 24, 10:24 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote:
 When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
 hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
 straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.









 On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
  When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I knew
  my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an MKS
  eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like
  they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I
  never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading
  about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do an
  exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my legs
  burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes the
  big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not
  really for pulling.

  On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

  Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75 gear up
  a steep hill. You can't do it for long  -- half a mile, say -- but it
  certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept pulling
  my feet out of the straps when climbing

  Patrick Moore
  iPhone

  On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com
  wrote:

  My favorite comment of all was

   Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn

  Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.

  On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike
  out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know what
  kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade 
  hill
  and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals  Take
  that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless pedals up
  Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin our knees.
  What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just been able to
  eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly. And while it
  is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt make them out of
  reach, I mean these people should think about how much money they piss away
  on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty fast.

  On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:

  I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you
  choose, but stories from old guys who made it through their youths without
  them are easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya
  know, we made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old Stingrays 
  and
  10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away with
  it, and usually wear a helmet now.

  Joe Bernard
  Vallejo, CA.

  On Monday, July 23, 2012 8:31:38 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:

  Great job Grant..in such a limited format.don't let some of
  doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too bad
  many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I used 
  to
  think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals,
  cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually 
  thought
  about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did
  without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of the
  rest of the world did and still does with.no helmet, no special
  'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider tires
  and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer. Those
  were some of the best bicycling years of my life.and I didn't die
  (thankfully) from not wearing a helmet even though I crashed more than 
  once.

  On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:03:20 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

  Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
  asshole place NYC is to live

 http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=fe...

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[RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

I think Peter White's dictum for his group would be the best protocol
to follow, something along the lines of: Unless you are sure you're
contributing something to the helmet debate that has never been
thought of before, keep it off the list.

On Jul 24, 10:08 pm, Robert Barr rcba...@gmail.com wrote:
 No way am I going to enter the helmet wars. I do want to say that one of
 the reasons that I follow this group is that its most
 regular contributors are collegial. Civil discourse is rare these days and
 it is good to read your collective thoughtful opinions. Today's Yehuda Moon
 is remarkably appropriate. Rick must be out there...







 On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote:
  With broken collarbones it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of
  when...

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[RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-25 Thread Mike


 Maybe it might be more accurate to suggest that /all/ riders, regardless
 of whether they wear helmets or no, have DNRs in their medical files.
 The trouble and stress don't just exist re: the helmetless.

I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.

--mike

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[RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

It is quite strange how even with high-tech safety devices in a 1-2
ton protective steel cage there are still ~45,000 highway deaths a
year and nobody scolds anybody in the US of A about the much greater
risk of dying/getting maimed in a car crash. In a perfect world, more
people would ride and therefore have more respect for other riders
while driving (the Dutch effect) and this wouldn't be such a
horrendous/tragic issue. Smart  safe riding and driving are a better
solution than styrofoam.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=United+States+Traffic+Fatalities+2011

On Jul 25, 8:45 pm, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote:
  Maybe it might be more accurate to suggest that /all/ riders, regardless
  of whether they wear helmets or no, have DNRs in their medical files.
  The trouble and stress don't just exist re: the helmetless.

 I can't believe Cyclofiend hasn't shut this thread down yet.

 --mike

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-25 Thread PATRICK MOORE

Try it. Use clipless. Report.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Mike On A Bike shaljia...@guilford.edu wrote:
 If the best you can do is not resist the upstroke while spinning on a
 descent, how can you possibly pull up while climbing a hill?

 On Jul 24, 10:24 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote:
 When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
 hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
 straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.









 On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
  When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I knew
  my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an MKS
  eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like
  they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I
  never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading
  about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do an
  exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my legs
  burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes the
  big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not
  really for pulling.

  On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

  Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75 gear up
  a steep hill. You can't do it for long  -- half a mile, say -- but it
  certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept 
  pulling
  my feet out of the straps when climbing

  Patrick Moore
  iPhone

  On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com
  wrote:

  My favorite comment of all was

   Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn

  Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.

  On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike
  out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know what
  kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade 
  hill
  and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals  Take
  that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless pedals 
  up
  Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin our 
  knees.
  What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just been able 
  to
  eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly. And while 
  it
  is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt make them out 
  of
  reach, I mean these people should think about how much money they piss 
  away
  on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty fast.

  On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:

  I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you
  choose, but stories from old guys who made it through their youths 
  without
  them are easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya
  know, we made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old Stingrays 
  and
  10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away with
  it, and usually wear a helmet now.

  Joe Bernard
  Vallejo, CA.

  On Monday, July 23, 2012 8:31:38 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:

  Great job Grant..in such a limited format.don't let some of
  doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too 
  bad
  many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I used 
  to
  think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals,
  cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually 
  thought
  about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did
  without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of 
  the
  rest of the world did and still does with.no helmet, no special
  'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider 
  tires
  and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer. Those
  were some of the best bicycling years of my life.and I didn't die
  (thankfully) from not wearing a helmet even though I crashed more than 
  once.

  On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:03:20 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

  Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
  asshole place NYC is to live

 http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=fe...

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[RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

Rocked SPD's for a little bit on my fixie a few years ago and hated
them, especially on longer rides. The inability to change position of
the foot is a deal breaker in and of itself and I didn't experience
any discernible increase in power. It brings to mind a Sheldon Brown
line (re: touring on a singlespeed), which goes something like If
you're in a hurry to get somewhere, why are you on a bicycle?.

I would rather have my ride setup for maximum comfort and versatility
rather than gunning for a marginal increase in watts.

This feels a lot like unnecessary in-fighting though, when it's just
to each his own. The tone of that radio segment made me sad. Why can't
the great chain of being just happily revolve?

On Jul 25, 9:30 pm, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Try it. Use clipless. Report.

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Mike On A Bike shaljia...@guilford.edu 
 wrote:









  If the best you can do is not resist the upstroke while spinning on a
  descent, how can you possibly pull up while climbing a hill?

  On Jul 24, 10:24 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote:
  When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
  hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
  straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.

  On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com 
  wrote:
   When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I 
   knew
   my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an 
   MKS
   eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like
   they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I
   never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading
   about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do 
   an
   exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my 
   legs
   burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes 
   the
   big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not
   really for pulling.

   On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

   Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75 gear 
   up
   a steep hill. You can't do it for long  -- half a mile, say -- but it
   certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept 
   pulling
   my feet out of the straps when climbing

   Patrick Moore
   iPhone

   On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com
   wrote:

   My favorite comment of all was

    Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn

   Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.

   On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike
   out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know 
   what
   kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade 
   hill
   and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals  Take
   that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless 
   pedals up
   Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin our 
   knees.
   What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just been 
   able to
   eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly. And 
   while it
   is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt make them 
   out of
   reach, I mean these people should think about how much money they piss 
   away
   on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty fast.

   On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com 
   wrote:

   I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you
   choose, but stories from old guys who made it through their youths 
   without
   them are easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya
   know, we made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old 
   Stingrays and
   10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away 
   with
   it, and usually wear a helmet now.

   Joe Bernard
   Vallejo, CA.

   On Monday, July 23, 2012 8:31:38 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:

   Great job Grant..in such a limited format.don't let some 
   of
   doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too 
   bad
   many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I 
   used to
   think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals,
   cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually 
   thought
   about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did
   without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of 
   the
   rest of the world did and still does with.no helmet, no 
   special
   'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider 
   tires
   and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer. 
   Those

[RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-24 Thread Mike

It's nice that the book is getting some exposure and being discussed. 
Hopefully the people who are taking its message to heart are too busy 
having fun riding their bike to chime in via the web. 

As for NYC... I love visiting but have no desire to ride my bike there. 
I've spent a fair amount of time in the city and I went to grad school on 
Long Island, SUNY SB, and while it was very beautiful out there it was a 
terrifying place to ride a bike. On quiet back roads people tended to speed 
and would not hesitate to blare their horn at you. Yeah, it wasn't for me. 
I remember my first ride back in the Marin Headlands after returning to SF, 
I almost had tears in my eyes. It was so good to be home. 

All that said, my wife is from Nyack and we were visiting last year and I 
saw lots of groups of people in Nyack who had apparently pedaled out that 
way from NYC. Although this was the racer/pseudo-racer crowd, they by and 
large looked happy to be out on their bikes. People get used to what they 
have and deal with it. 

I feel very fortunate to live in Portland, OR. It's pretty friggin awesome 
for cycling here. Lots of folks just ride in this town, I bet a lot of 
them have never even heard of Rivendell or Grant and are out there 
living/riding what he's talking about.

--mike

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-24 Thread PATRICK MOORE

When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com wrote:
When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I knew
my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an MKS
eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like
they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I
never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading
about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do an
exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my legs
burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes the
big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not
really for pulling.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75 gear up
a steep hill. You can't do it for long -- half a mile, say -- but it
certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept pulling
my feet out of the straps when climbing

Patrick Moore
iPhone

On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com
wrote:

My favorite comment of all was

Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn

Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.

On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike
out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know what
kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade hill
and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals Take
that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless pedals up
Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin our knees.
What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just been able to
eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly. And while it
is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt make them out of
reach, I mean these people should think about how much money they piss away
on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty fast.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you
choose, but stories from old guys who made it through their youths without
them are easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya
know, we made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old Stingrays and
10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away with
it, and usually wear a helmet now.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 8:31:38 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:

Great job Grant..in such a limited format.don't let some of
doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too bad
many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I used to
think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals,
cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually thought
about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did
without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of the
rest of the world did and still does with.no helmet, no special
'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider tires
and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer. Those
were some of the best bicycling years of my life.and I didn't die
(thankfully) from not wearing a helmet even though I crashed more than
once.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:03:20 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
asshole place NYC is to live

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=%24%7Bfeed%7Dutm_campaign=Feed%3A+%24%7Bbl%7D+%28%24%7BBrian+Lehrer%7D%29

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

Maybe it's an individual thing, I always found myself stomping on them to
get more power. Now I just sit in super low gear and if it's that steep
take a nice walk, my knees go snap crackle and pop in the morning as it is,
haha.
On Jul 24, 2012 10:25 AM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

When I climb those steep hills, I am very aware of pulling up quite
hard to gain extra torque, something I can't do as well with clips and
straps. I can feel the bike accelerate when pulling hard.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com
wrote:
When I rode fixie for a long time I used the clipless system because I
knew
my foot wasnt going to come off down a descent and stick my leg into an
MKS
eggbeater. I always found that when climbing though clipless seemed like
they limited how much i could stand up and just hammer on the pedals. I
never thought upstroke was really more than hogwash, long before reading
about grant's stuff. I lifted weights when I was wrestling and woudl do
an
exercise that looked alot like a back stroke on a bike and it made my
legs
burn and I had little power, I just dont think it is one that utilizes
the
big muscles in your legs the right way. Legs are made for pushing, not
really for pulling.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

Actually, foot retention does help when grinding a fixed 70 -- 75 gear
up
a steep hill. You can't do it for long -- half a mile, say -- but it
certainly helps. One reason I went back to clipless was that I kept
pulling
my feet out of the straps when climbing

Patrick Moore
iPhone

On Jul 23, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com
wrote:

My favorite comment of all was

Mike In Bklyn from Brooklyn

Boy there was a lot of misleading info in this segment.

On clips and pulling up on the pedals-- anyone who tries to pedal a bike
out of the saddle comes quickly to appreciate clips. And I don't know
what
kind of riding this quy has done, but he should try climbing a 9% grade
hill
and then tell me whether could do so without pulling up on pedals Take
that grant, i bet he is always just wishing he had those clipless
pedals up
Mt Diablo, since as another guy said the ones without clips ruin our
knees.
What a bunch of mouth breathers, this is why bikesnob has just been
able to
eviscerate the culture around bikes, it can just get so silly. And
while it
is a shame not everyone can afford a Rivendell that doesnt make them
out of
reach, I mean these people should think about how much money they piss
away
on cars and gas, you will make your money back pretty fast.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com
wrote:

I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you
choose, but stories from old guys who made it through their youths
without
them are easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya
know, we made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old
Stingrays and
10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away
with
it, and usually wear a helmet now.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 8:31:38 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:

Great job Grant..in such a limited format.don't let some
of
doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too
bad
many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I
used to
think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals,
cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually
thought
about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did
without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of
the
rest of the world did and still does with.no helmet, no
special
'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider
tires
and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer.
Those
were some of the best bicycling years of my life.and I didn't die
(thankfully) from not wearing a helmet even though I crashed more
than once.

On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:03:20 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
asshole place NYC is to live

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=%24%7Bfeed%7Dutm_campaign=Feed%3A+%24%7Bbl%7D+%28%24%7BBrian+Lehrer%7D%29

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[RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-24 Thread Jim Cloud

The choice to wear a helmet is entirely up to the individual and I
don't wish to start a pro-helmet/anti-helmet discussion.  I do,
however, find that my current preference is in favor of wearing a
helmet.

I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
promotes a riskier still of riding.  I've ridden both without a helmet
and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
one iota.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

On Jul 23, 8:51 pm, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm in full support of not riding with a helmet if that's what you choose,
 but stories from old guys who made it through their youths without them are
 easy to come by from the ones who actually made it, 'cause, ya know, we
 made it! I crashed a goodly number of times on my old Stingrays and
 10-speeds, and banged my head hard a few times. I'm lucky I got away with
 it, and usually wear a helmet now.

 Joe Bernard
 Vallejo, CA.







 On Monday, July 23, 2012 8:31:38 PM UTC-7, charlie wrote:
  Great job Grant..in such a limited format.don't let some of
  doz guyz get ya down. Controversy always gets attention. Its just too bad
  many still believe the common misconceptions you often speak of. I used to
  think many of things you speak about were necessary (clipless pedals,
  cycling specific clothing, helmets all that stuff) until I actually thought
  about it critically and remembered my youth and all the riding we did
  without any of that stuff. I actually did ride a bicycle like most of the
  rest of the world did and still does with.no helmet, no special
  'kit', no special shoes, bars actually higher than my saddle, wider tires
  and no emphasis on riding all bent over like a professional racer. Those
  were some of the best bicycling years of my life.and I didn't die
  (thankfully) from not wearing a helmet even though I crashed more than once.

  On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:03:20 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

  Good discussion, comments on the bottom of the page prove what an
  asshole place NYC is to live

 http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2012/jul/23/bicycling-101/?utm_source=fe...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 12:47 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote:
 
 I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
 promotes a riskier still of riding.  I've ridden both without a helmet
 and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
 one iota.

Were the safety equipment begets riskier activity argument true, when
we look back on driving cars in the 1950s -- back in the days of
spear-you-through-the-chest steering columns and steel dashboards with
big knobs that would smash your skull and no seatbelts so you'd go
flying through the windshield or into the dashboard or get impaled on
the steering column -- you would expect to see safer driving habits than
you see now.  And those of us who were there can tell you with
authority, there was no such thing.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and other
safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives helmet technology
simply has not advanced that far and is being applied as a panacea to tell
people they are safer when in fact they are probably not.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/1999/jun/15/healthandwellbeing.health1

Like I have said, I wear one but I also ride cautiously, I have a family
that needs me at home so they can annoy me about how I ride too much

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 12:47 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote:
 
  I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
  promotes a riskier still of riding.  I've ridden both without a helmet
  and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
  one iota.

 Were the safety equipment begets riskier activity argument true, when
 we look back on driving cars in the 1950s -- back in the days of
 spear-you-through-the-chest steering columns and steel dashboards with
 big knobs that would smash your skull and no seatbelts so you'd go
 flying through the windshield or into the dashboard or get impaled on
 the steering column -- you would expect to see safer driving habits than
 you see now.  And those of us who were there can tell you with
 authority, there was no such thing.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and other
safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives (in cars,
sorry) helmet technology simply has not advanced that far and is being
applied as a panacea to tell people they are safer when in fact they are
probably not.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/1999/jun/15/healthandwellbeing.health1



Like I have said, I wear one but I also ride cautiously, I have a family
that needs me at home so they can annoy me about how I ride too much

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

 I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and other
 safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives helmet technology
 simply has not advanced that far and is being applied as a panacea to tell
 people they are safer when in fact they are probably not.
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/1999/jun/15/healthandwellbeing.health1

 Like I have said, I wear one but I also ride cautiously, I have a family
 that needs me at home so they can annoy me about how I ride too much

 On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 12:47 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote:
 
  I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
  promotes a riskier still of riding.  I've ridden both without a helmet
  and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
  one iota.

 Were the safety equipment begets riskier activity argument true, when
 we look back on driving cars in the 1950s -- back in the days of
 spear-you-through-the-chest steering columns and steel dashboards with
 big knobs that would smash your skull and no seatbelts so you'd go
 flying through the windshield or into the dashboard or get impaled on
 the steering column -- you would expect to see safer driving habits than
 you see now.  And those of us who were there can tell you with
 authority, there was no such thing.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-24 Thread Norman Bone

Hi Steve-

Have you read this?:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Buckle-Up-And-Behave.html

Norman in Portland, OR




 From: Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer
 
On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 12:47 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote:
 
 I also don't agree with Grant that wearing a helmet necessarily
 promotes a riskier still of riding.  I've ridden both without a helmet
 and with a helmet, and I don't believe that my riding style changes
 one iota.

Were the safety equipment begets riskier activity argument true, when
we look back on driving cars in the 1950s -- back in the days of
spear-you-through-the-chest steering columns and steel dashboards with
big knobs that would smash your skull and no seatbelts so you'd go
flying through the windshield or into the dashboard or get impaled on
the steering column -- you would expect to see safer driving habits than
you see now.  And those of us who were there can tell you with
authority, there was no such thing.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 13:26 -0700, Norman Bone wrote:
 Hi Steve-
 
 
 Have you read this?:
 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Buckle-Up-And-Behave.html
 


I'm with Anne McCartt.  As I said, I was there.  I know how people drove
then and I know how people drive now.   It's a facile theory, full of
something that begins with s and fury, signifying nothing.

;-)



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 16:09 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
 I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and
 other safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives (in cars,
 sorry) helmet technology simply has not advanced that far and is being
 applied as a panacea to tell people they are safer when in fact they
 are probably not.  

I think there are many here who have crashed while wearing a helmet and
have the evidence that in fact they /were/ safer because of it.  I'm one
of them.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

I have also crashed and thought the helmet stopped me from being hurt worse
than I could have been but studies have shown that is just how we feel,
which is not always accurate to what is actually going on.  The evidence is
pretty substantial that putting and inch of foam between your head and the
road isnt really going to save you, its not like an airbag or a crumple
zone or anything that substanial. I will continue to wear mine though and
hope for the day where instead of putting batteries in shifters the bike
bike companies can work on a helmet strong enough to actually save our
lives.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 16:09 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
  I think that what Grant is driving at is that while seatbelts and
  other safety improvements have gone a long way to save lives (in cars,
  sorry) helmet technology simply has not advanced that far and is being
  applied as a panacea to tell people they are safer when in fact they
  are probably not.

 I think there are many here who have crashed while wearing a helmet and
 have the evidence that in fact they /were/ safer because of it.  I'm one
 of them.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 17:49 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
 I have also crashed and thought the helmet stopped me from being hurt
 worse than I could have been but studies have shown that is just how
 we feel, which is not always accurate to what is actually going on.
 The evidence is pretty substantial that putting and inch of foam
 between your head and the road isnt really going to save you, its not
 like an airbag or a crumple zone or anything that substanial. I will
 continue to wear mine though and hope for the day where instead of
 putting batteries in shifters the bike bike companies can work on a
 helmet strong enough to actually save our lives.

Peter, when the evidence is half-inch deep gouges in the outer shell and
through the foam, the only question is, Would you rather have those
gouges in your helmet, or in the skin on your face and head?
Completely unambiguous.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

Oh, I agree, i am one of the better safe than sorry worry warts who makes
sure he has his keys twice before he locks the door behind him. I do think
that helmets can prevent injury but I just dont know if they can save your
life in a situation where you would otherwise be killed.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 17:49 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
  I have also crashed and thought the helmet stopped me from being hurt
  worse than I could have been but studies have shown that is just how
  we feel, which is not always accurate to what is actually going on.
  The evidence is pretty substantial that putting and inch of foam
  between your head and the road isnt really going to save you, its not
  like an airbag or a crumple zone or anything that substanial. I will
  continue to wear mine though and hope for the day where instead of
  putting batteries in shifters the bike bike companies can work on a
  helmet strong enough to actually save our lives.

 Peter, when the evidence is half-inch deep gouges in the outer shell and
 through the foam, the only question is, Would you rather have those
 gouges in your helmet, or in the skin on your face and head?
 Completely unambiguous.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 18:35 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
 Oh, I agree, i am one of the better safe than sorry worry warts who
 makes sure he has his keys twice before he locks the door behind him.
 I do think that helmets can prevent injury but I just dont know if
 they can save your life in a situation where you would otherwise be
 killed.

Probably sometimes, but certainly not always.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-24 Thread Joe Bernard

I don't consider it a matter of life and death; rather, going home sore, or 
going home with a concussion. A helmet isn't gonna do you much good in a 
collision with a car, but most riders have at one time or another had some 
sort of solo crash. A popped tire, a slide on oil, front wheel caught in a 
crack in the road. These are the events that take you from upright to 
body-slamming the pavement. I would prefer to have my helmet take that 
bounce when my head reaches rapid deceleration.
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:57:11 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 18:35 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote: 
  Oh, I agree, i am one of the better safe than sorry worry warts who 
  makes sure he has his keys twice before he locks the door behind him. 
  I do think that helmets can prevent injury but I just dont know if 
  they can save your life in a situation where you would otherwise be 
  killed. 

 Probably sometimes, but certainly not always.   





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 16:16 -0700, Joe Bernard wrote:
 I don't consider it a matter of life and death; rather, going home
 sore, or going home with a concussion. A helmet isn't gonna do you
 much good in a collision with a car, but most riders have at one time
 or another had some sort of solo crash. A popped tire, a slide on oil,
 front wheel caught in a crack in the road. These are the events that
 take you from upright to body-slamming the pavement. I would prefer to
 have my helmet take that bounce when my head reaches rapid
 deceleration.

Exactly so.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer

2012-07-24 Thread Matthew J

Thing is, more solo bike accidents conclude with busted knees, collar 
bones, arms, road rash than concussions or skull fractures.

The shoulder, knee and elbow pads football players wear would certainly 
have made a difference in these situations.  None the less, day in and day 
out I see cyclists wearing helmets and little else.  

If helmet wearing cyclists don't think their lids are a panacea, I'll be 
darned if I understand why they worry so little about the rest of their 
bodies when viable protective gear is readily available.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:16:02 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

 I don't consider it a matter of life and death; rather, going home sore, 
 or going home with a concussion. A helmet isn't gonna do you much good in a 
 collision with a car, but most riders have at one time or another had some 
 sort of solo crash. A popped tire, a slide on oil, front wheel caught in a 
 crack in the road. These are the events that take you from upright to 
 body-slamming the pavement. I would prefer to have my helmet take that 
 bounce when my head reaches rapid deceleration.
  
 Joe Bernard
 Vallejo, CA.

 On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:57:11 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 18:35 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote: 
  Oh, I agree, i am one of the better safe than sorry worry warts who 
  makes sure he has his keys twice before he locks the door behind him. 
  I do think that helmets can prevent injury but I just dont know if 
  they can save your life in a situation where you would otherwise be 
  killed. 

 Probably sometimes, but certainly not always.   





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on Brian Lehrer