[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
On 6/29/09, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS Hell, I'd be annoyed too if I had a perfectly good medical reason to buy a new bike, or at least new tires, and everyone told me, Don't bother, it's your technique! I say, run with it. I don't ride on gravel a great deal, but I do ride in sand, and insofar as sand is like gravel (it's just a lot smaller -- juust kidding) in that it's slippery, I am a gravel expert. And so, what I recommend is a 60 mm WTB knobby -- I know and love the Exiwolfs and the Weirwolfs -- one a Snowcat rim; this will give you a tire at least 2 1/2 inches wide that you can safely ride at 15/18, at least if you are not a lot more than 170 lb. Technique does play a role, though, if you wish to use a road tire in this size, like the Big Apples. And forget little 650b wheels; those are for the little people. Use 700c wheels. They float over small bumps and give much better traction and float. Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
On 6/30/09, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/29/09, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS Hell, I'd be annoyed too if I had a perfectly good medical reason to buy a new bike, or at least new tires, and everyone told me, Don't bother, it's your technique! I say, run with it. I don't ride on gravel a great deal, but I do ride in sand, and insofar as sand is like gravel (it's just a lot smaller -- juust kidding) in that it's slippery, I am a gravel expert. And so, what I recommend is a 60 mm WTB knobby -- I know and love the Exiwolfs and the Weirwolfs -- one a Snowcat rim; this will give you a tire at least 2 1/2 inches wide that you can safely ride at 15/18, at least if you are not a lot more than 170 lb. Technique does play a role, though, if you wish to use a road tire in this size, like the Big Apples. And forget little 650b wheels; those are for the little people. Use 700c wheels. They float over small bumps and give much better traction and float. Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
George, Jan Heine and Jim Edgar make some very good points. I spent five years doing cyclocross (on a Rivendell) and riding narrow tires on loose surfaces took practice. Lots of feeling the bike sliding around under you. http://www.flickr.com/photos/16951...@n08/1992613270/ I think it's 90+% rider, if you want an equipment upgrade, wider tires are usually a bit easier in loose surfaces than skinny ones...IMHO. Angus On Jun 29, 4:56 am, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Last week I posted a question about tires for gravel. Thanks for the response. I've gone with the consensus and ordered a pair of Pasela's w/o TG. Since then, I've had two kind of scary falls, both in exactly the same situation - fast descent on dirt/gravel road with sweeping right turn at the bottom. In both cases there was loose stuff in the turn and my rear wheel just slid out and I was down. Got some road burn but no real damage other than to my dignity. Is it possible this is the result of having the wrong tires, or (what seems more likely) I just don't know how to handle this situation. I don't like the idea of just riding the brake every time I start going down - takes some of the fun out of it. GeorgeS --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Quoting JimD rasterd...@comcast.net: Steve, What fenders are those on your Saluki with the Hetres? thanks, JimD 58mm Honjo fluted. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) How tall are you? At just under 6' 0 I have always ridden 700s. When I started reading about BAs, I had to try them. I set up one of my touring bikes with them. Everything I read about BAs - comfort, handling, smooth ride, surprisingly low rolling resistance - was right on the mark. On the other hand, whenever I ride the bike I feel like I am on one of those old gas lamp lighters. So I am now definitely in Steve's camp. The ideal 650b design mandate are bikes built to accomodate big honking 50mm and 60mm tires for people probably up to 6'2 or so. I hope Schwalbe starts thinking about making a 650b Big Apple. On Jun 30, 3:29 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/29/09, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS Hell, I'd be annoyed too if I had a perfectly good medical reason to buy a new bike, or at least new tires, and everyone told me, Don't bother, it's your technique! I say, run with it. I don't ride on gravel a great deal, but I do ride in sand, and insofar as sand is like gravel (it's just a lot smaller -- juust kidding) in that it's slippery, I am a gravel expert. And so, what I recommend is a 60 mm WTB knobby -- I know and love the Exiwolfs and the Weirwolfs -- one a Snowcat rim; this will give you a tire at least 2 1/2 inches wide that you can safely ride at 15/18, at least if you are not a lot more than 170 lb. Technique does play a role, though, if you wish to use a road tire in this size, like the Big Apples. And forget little 650b wheels; those are for the little people. Use 700c wheels. They float over small bumps and give much better traction and float. Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
I'm a startling 5'10 in bare feet on a level, hard surface. I've not ridden 584, and my comments about it were largely facetious. I went from 60 mm Big Apples in the 559 size (26 3/4 inches diam) to ditto on 722s (29 1/4) and the float over sand, the cush over, say, washboard, and the traction when cornering ,at least on pavement, were very noticeably better. (I say on pavement because, with such tires on dirt, you can't corner hard, I prefer them nonetheless for their easy rolling on pavement, this being an all rounder type of bike.) I extrapolate that 722 would also be better in this regard than 584, tho' presumeable not by as much. On 6/30/09, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) How tall are you? At just under 6' 0 I have always ridden 700s. When I started reading about BAs, I had to try them. I set up one of my touring bikes with them. Everything I read about BAs - comfort, handling, smooth ride, surprisingly low rolling resistance - was right on the mark. On the other hand, whenever I ride the bike I feel like I am on one of those old gas lamp lighters. So I am now definitely in Steve's camp. The ideal 650b design mandate are bikes built to accomodate big honking 50mm and 60mm tires for people probably up to 6'2 or so. I hope Schwalbe starts thinking about making a 650b Big Apple. On Jun 30, 3:29 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/29/09, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS Hell, I'd be annoyed too if I had a perfectly good medical reason to buy a new bike, or at least new tires, and everyone told me, Don't bother, it's your technique! I say, run with it. I don't ride on gravel a great deal, but I do ride in sand, and insofar as sand is like gravel (it's just a lot smaller -- juust kidding) in that it's slippery, I am a gravel expert. And so, what I recommend is a 60 mm WTB knobby -- I know and love the Exiwolfs and the Weirwolfs -- one a Snowcat rim; this will give you a tire at least 2 1/2 inches wide that you can safely ride at 15/18, at least if you are not a lot more than 170 lb. Technique does play a role, though, if you wish to use a road tire in this size, like the Big Apples. And forget little 650b wheels; those are for the little people. Use 700c wheels. They float over small bumps and give much better traction and float. Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Do you have the BAs on a road bike frame or a mountain bike frame? I could probably do alright on a 29er, as MTB geometry puts the rider somewhat lower in any event. When I first put the BAs on the road frame, I tried lowering the seat. On my first ride it occurred to me the higher tires do not change the distance between the seat and pedals. I guess I could have replaced the 170 crank with 172.5 or 175. That sort of alchemy more frequently leads to sore knees than not, though. On Jun 30, 9:13 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: I'm a startling 5'10 in bare feet on a level, hard surface. I've not ridden 584, and my comments about it were largely facetious. I went from 60 mm Big Apples in the 559 size (26 3/4 inches diam) to ditto on 722s (29 1/4) and the float over sand, the cush over, say, washboard, and the traction when cornering ,at least on pavement, were very noticeably better. (I say on pavement because, with such tires on dirt, you can't corner hard, I prefer them nonetheless for their easy rolling on pavement, this being an all rounder type of bike.) I extrapolate that 722 would also be better in this regard than 584, tho' presumeable not by as much. On 6/30/09, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) How tall are you? At just under 6' 0 I have always ridden 700s. When I started reading about BAs, I had to try them. I set up one of my touring bikes with them. Everything I read about BAs - comfort, handling, smooth ride, surprisingly low rolling resistance - was right on the mark. On the other hand, whenever I ride the bike I feel like I am on one of those old gas lamp lighters. So I am now definitely in Steve's camp. The ideal 650b design mandate are bikes built to accomodate big honking 50mm and 60mm tires for people probably up to 6'2 or so. I hope Schwalbe starts thinking about making a 650b Big Apple. On Jun 30, 3:29 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/29/09, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS Hell, I'd be annoyed too if I had a perfectly good medical reason to buy a new bike, or at least new tires, and everyone told me, Don't bother, it's your technique! I say, run with it. I don't ride on gravel a great deal, but I do ride in sand, and insofar as sand is like gravel (it's just a lot smaller -- juust kidding) in that it's slippery, I am a gravel expert. And so, what I recommend is a 60 mm WTB knobby -- I know and love the Exiwolfs and the Weirwolfs -- one a Snowcat rim; this will give you a tire at least 2 1/2 inches wide that you can safely ride at 15/18, at least if you are not a lot more than 170 lb. Technique does play a role, though, if you wish to use a road tire in this size, like the Big Apples. And forget little 650b wheels; those are for the little people. Use 700c wheels. They float over small bumps and give much better traction and float. Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
The bike, or what is left of it, is a 2008 (I think it's an '08) Redline Monocog 29er, the cheap tigg'd chromo very compact 29er mtb frame that, built up OEM, rolls out the door for a list of $500 plus tax. I've considerably upgraded mine, but the frame, despite it's girder-like stiffness and massive weight, works very well for my purpose. It takes the 2.3 Big Apples which, on the 45 mm Snowcat SL rims, measure an actual 65 mm wide and 29 1/4 inches tall; and there is still huge clearance for Planet Bike 60 mm fenders and daylight between top of tire and bottom of fender. The bb height with these wheels is an immense 12+ inches, but the bike does not feel tippy. Remaining from the stock package, beside the frame, are the hugely long seatpost, and the headset; all else is upgraded, thus: Truvative 170 road crankset with Truvative bb and single 39 t ring. 18 t BMX cog Turbo saddle Salsa Bell Lap bars, 46 cm Profile very short and steep stem Dura Ace aero levers Avid 160 mm road disc brakes (I hope soon to change the front to a 180 or 230) Better-than-Jagwire cables First generation Shimano M540 (?) pedals Old Nelson Velo Orange bag support Honka Hoota I can run the Big Apples at lower than 15 front, tho' much below 15 psi and you have sidewall flex and steering weirdness on pavement. I am still seeking the sweet spot for the rear tire pressure: 18 is a bit hard: but I expect that, for my typical rides, of which 2/3 are on sandy irrigation roads and 1/3 are on pavement, 13/15 might be the best compromise. I hope to get a local brazer to install fender and rack braze ons, move the front disc mount to accomodate a 230 mm rotor, install threaded eyelets for fenders under seatstay and chainstay bridges, and rig up some sort of fork crown extension (the rigid fork is suspension corrected) so that I can get a decent front fender line without having to jury-rig a mounting bracket. On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:54 AM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Do you have the BAs on a road bike frame or a mountain bike frame? I could probably do alright on a 29er, as MTB geometry puts the rider somewhat lower in any event. When I first put the BAs on the road frame, I tried lowering the seat. On my first ride it occurred to me the higher tires do not change the distance between the seat and pedals. I guess I could have replaced the 170 crank with 172.5 or 175. That sort of alchemy more frequently leads to sore knees than not, though. On Jun 30, 9:13 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: I'm a startling 5'10 in bare feet on a level, hard surface. I've not ridden 584, and my comments about it were largely facetious. I went from 60 mm Big Apples in the 559 size (26 3/4 inches diam) to ditto on 722s (29 1/4) and the float over sand, the cush over, say, washboard, and the traction when cornering ,at least on pavement, were very noticeably better. (I say on pavement because, with such tires on dirt, you can't corner hard, I prefer them nonetheless for their easy rolling on pavement, this being an all rounder type of bike.) I extrapolate that 722 would also be better in this regard than 584, tho' presumeable not by as much. On 6/30/09, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Only half my tongue is in my cheek. (The other half is in my pocket.) I really love my Monocog 29er set up as a on/off road allrounder with said BAs and Snowcats, drops, fenders, and a modest 63 gear. Not Rivendellian, but unfortunately the only Riv that comes close, the Bomdadil, only takes skinny tires. (It does have vertical dropouts, but you could use an eccentric bb.) How tall are you? At just under 6' 0 I have always ridden 700s. When I started reading about BAs, I had to try them. I set up one of my touring bikes with them. Everything I read about BAs - comfort, handling, smooth ride, surprisingly low rolling resistance - was right on the mark. On the other hand, whenever I ride the bike I feel like I am on one of those old gas lamp lighters. So I am now definitely in Steve's camp. The ideal 650b design mandate are bikes built to accomodate big honking 50mm and 60mm tires for people probably up to 6'2 or so. I hope Schwalbe starts thinking about making a 650b Big Apple. On Jun 30, 3:29 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/29/09, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS Hell, I'd be annoyed too if I had a perfectly good medical reason to buy a new bike, or at least new tires, and everyone told me, Don't bother, it's your
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Quoting GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com: Last week I posted a question about tires for gravel. Thanks for the response. I've gone with the consensus and ordered a pair of Pasela's w/o TG. Since then, I've had two kind of scary falls, both in exactly the same situation - fast descent on dirt/gravel road with sweeping right turn at the bottom. In both cases there was loose stuff in the turn and my rear wheel just slid out and I was down. Got some road burn but no real damage other than to my dignity. Is it possible this is the result of having the wrong tires, or (what seems more likely) I just don't know how to handle this situation. I don't like the idea of just riding the brake every time I start going down - takes some of the fun out of it. You mean, the part where you slide out on the loose gravel, crash, and then get to debride your wounds? Yes, slowing down will take that fun out of it, but most of us would prefer to skip that part. No tires are going to help you in the situation you describe. What will help is not going too fast to be able to make the turn, and learning how to turn without a lot of lean angle. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
You have the wrong tires. The protocol is to vociferously denounce those tires in every discussion of any relevance to bicycling, especially on the internet. Then try a series of progressively more expensive tires until you have honed your gravel-riding skill to the point where you no longer crash. At that point, you have found The Correct Tire. Just trying to add a diversity of opinion for you to consider. (all joking and good-natured ribbing aside, I agree that learning to turn with minimal leaning is a useful technique in these situations). On Jun 29, 4:56 am, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Last week I posted a question about tires for gravel. Thanks for the response. I've gone with the consensus and ordered a pair of Pasela's w/o TG. Since then, I've had two kind of scary falls, both in exactly the same situation - fast descent on dirt/gravel road with sweeping right turn at the bottom. In both cases there was loose stuff in the turn and my rear wheel just slid out and I was down. Got some road burn but no real damage other than to my dignity. Is it possible this is the result of having the wrong tires, or (what seems more likely) I just don't know how to handle this situation. I don't like the idea of just riding the brake every time I start going down - takes some of the fun out of it. GeorgeS --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Quoting Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com: You have the wrong tires. The protocol is to vociferously denounce those tires in every discussion of any relevance to bicycling, especially on the internet. Then try a series of progressively more expensive tires until you have honed your gravel-riding skill to the point where you no longer crash. At that point, you have found The Correct Tire. Just trying to add a diversity of opinion for you to consider. (all joking and good-natured ribbing aside, I agree that learning to turn with minimal leaning is a useful technique in these situations). There is a technological fix for the problem originally presented, but it's not tires. It's Tegaderm. It'll help with the road rash (but not the debridement). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:56 AM, GeorgeS wrote: Last week I posted a question about tires for gravel. Thanks for the response. I've gone with the consensus and ordered a pair of Pasela's w/o TG. Since then, I've had two kind of scary falls, both in exactly the same situation - fast descent on dirt/gravel road with sweeping right turn at the bottom. In both cases there was loose stuff in the turn and my rear wheel just slid out and I was down. Got some road burn but no real damage other than to my dignity. Is it possible this is the result of having the wrong tires, or (what seems more likely) I just don't know how to handle this situation. I don't like the idea of just riding the brake every time I start going down - takes some of the fun out of it. You're riding on loose gravel and some circumspection is necessary. There are no tires that will fix this situation, because your basically riding on ball bearings. In such situations I unclip the inside foot and have it ready to do a three point turn. Just like we did when we were kids practicing skidding around corners. If you want to bomb down descents with no brakes, save that for asphalt or really well-packed gravel (e.g., macadam). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Gravel is fun because you can improve your skills without risking a crash. On pavement, you only know you've gone too fast in a corner when you crash. You don't want to do that, so you stay well below the limit. On gravel, you can successively go faster, brake later, etc. If you go just a touch too fast, your front wheel will slide a bit, but it's easy to catch. (If you go way too fast, you crash, of course.) When you brake hard (front brake only, of course), the front wheel will begin to lock up, and you release the brake again, and traction is restored. With time, you'll hone your skills and get faster and faster, without falling. One secret is to be smooth on the bike. I've seen people crash who were following my line, going at my speed. They must have done something differently. Of course, it helps to have a bike that doesn't dive into corners, but reacts in a linear fashion to your inputs. Snow works even better - less traction, so it's even more forgiving, plus it's soft if you do fall. Ice has too little traction to be of much use with standard tires. On ice, I just stop pedaling, coast and don't move the bars, until I am across. If the ice patch is too long, a fall is almost inevitable. The skills you learn on gravel and snow do transfer onto the road. You learn what it feels like when the bike is about to lose traction, so you can approach the limit on the road as well. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly 140 Lakeside Ave #C Seattle WA 98122 http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
on 6/29/09 2:56 AM, GeorgeS at chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Last week I posted a question about tires for gravel. Thanks for the response. I've gone with the consensus and ordered a pair of Pasela's w/o TG. Since then, I've had two kind of scary falls, both in exactly the same situation - fast descent on dirt/gravel road with sweeping right turn at the bottom. In both cases there was loose stuff in the turn and my rear wheel just slid out and I was down. Got some road burn but no real damage other than to my dignity. Is it possible this is the result of having the wrong tires, or (what seems more likely) I just don't know how to handle this situation. I don't like the idea of just riding the brake every time I start going down - takes some of the fun out of it. Gravel can be pretty tricky. Here are a few thoughts which may (or may not) help. (Disclaimer - I've logged a few hours on mtb's and trails, spent more than a few hours cleaning up wounds and spent a goodly amount of time pondering what I did wrong while lying in a dusty, sweaty heap on the trailside.) My elbow/trail interface sessions usually happen when I've been riding a lot of good, grippy pavement and then get onto a dry, loose trail. I brake too hard, at the wrong time and expect more adhesion out of my tires. Relaxation will cure a lot of evils. Your bike basically wants to stay upright and your mass is moving forward, so if you can keep loose and get the bike back under you, chances are you'll come out of it OK. There are countless times when I've seen riders just barely start to break the rear wheel loose when they either go rigid or just figure it's all over. End result is a cloud of dust and dermal abrasion. If you find some of the classic Repack footage, you can see good examples of bikes getting way sideways under riders. Granted, there may have been relaxation assistance but the riding skills are significant. http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm http://www.klunkerz.com/ You'll need some technique. It's important to know when you'll lose adhesion. I'll stab the rear brake a bit when I'm under control to see what I can get away with on a given trail. Remember, as soon as you start skidding, you're accellerating. You are better off scrubbing speed before you need to. I'd probably play a little with both front and rear skidding conditions so that you get used to it and don't think that the game's over just because your tire isn't locked onto the road surface. Look where you want to go. As soon as you look at the ground, you'll go down. If you opt for the tripod approach, get your foot ahead of you, punch the ground hard and get it back on the pedal quickly. If you went down without touching the brakes, then you went in with too much speed for your conditions and abilities. If you tapped the brakes and found yourself looking at the sky, you braked too hard and didn't keep the bike under you. There should be little, if any weight on your saddle whilst engaging in loose condition descending. hope that helps! - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcome; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace. William Gibson - All Tomorrow's Parties --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Thanks though for the input. GeorgeS On Jun 29, 12:19 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: on 6/29/09 2:56 AM, GeorgeS at chobur...@gmail.com wrote: Last week I posted a question about tires for gravel. Thanks for the response. I've gone with the consensus and ordered a pair of Pasela's w/o TG. Since then, I've had two kind of scary falls, both in exactly the same situation - fast descent on dirt/gravel road with sweeping right turn at the bottom. In both cases there was loose stuff in the turn and my rear wheel just slid out and I was down. Got some road burn but no real damage other than to my dignity. Is it possible this is the result of having the wrong tires, or (what seems more likely) I just don't know how to handle this situation. I don't like the idea of just riding the brake every time I start going down - takes some of the fun out of it. Gravel can be pretty tricky. Here are a few thoughts which may (or may not) help. (Disclaimer - I've logged a few hours on mtb's and trails, spent more than a few hours cleaning up wounds and spent a goodly amount of time pondering what I did wrong while lying in a dusty, sweaty heap on the trailside.) My elbow/trail interface sessions usually happen when I've been riding a lot of good, grippy pavement and then get onto a dry, loose trail. I brake too hard, at the wrong time and expect more adhesion out of my tires. Relaxation will cure a lot of evils. Your bike basically wants to stay upright and your mass is moving forward, so if you can keep loose and get the bike back under you, chances are you'll come out of it OK. There are countless times when I've seen riders just barely start to break the rear wheel loose when they either go rigid or just figure it's all over. End result is a cloud of dust and dermal abrasion. If you find some of the classic Repack footage, you can see good examples of bikes getting way sideways under riders. Granted, there may have been relaxation assistance but the riding skills are significant. http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htmhttp://www.klunkerz.com/ You'll need some technique. It's important to know when you'll lose adhesion. I'll stab the rear brake a bit when I'm under control to see what I can get away with on a given trail. Remember, as soon as you start skidding, you're accellerating. You are better off scrubbing speed before you need to. I'd probably play a little with both front and rear skidding conditions so that you get used to it and don't think that the game's over just because your tire isn't locked onto the road surface. Look where you want to go. As soon as you look at the ground, you'll go down. If you opt for the tripod approach, get your foot ahead of you, punch the ground hard and get it back on the pedal quickly. If you went down without touching the brakes, then you went in with too much speed for your conditions and abilities. If you tapped the brakes and found yourself looking at the sky, you braked too hard and didn't keep the bike under you. There should be little, if any weight on your saddle whilst engaging in loose condition descending. hope that helps! - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how:http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcome; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace. William Gibson - All Tomorrow's Parties --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 16:00 -0700, GeorgeS wrote: Well. The consensus seems to be that it's my fault. This is not exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't anyone want to suggest special gravel wheels or, even better, a new frame of the country variety? I mean I fell twice. Should be some equipment here that I could explain to my wife is critical to my safety. Yes. Tegaderm bandages. Best damn thing that's ever happened to road rash. Seriously. Beyond that, obviously you need a new 650B bike capable of using Hetre tires. You could cheap out and get one of those Rawlands Sogn blems for $350, or maybe a Kogswell P/R, and they'd be perfectly satisfactory, but instead I'm going to suggest you go for a Tournesol Pave. Maybe in Titanium. Or, pity they're not made any more, to stay in the Riv family look for either a Bleriot or a Saluki. And no I do NOT mean a Hilsen, because they take the wrong size tires. I mean one of the 650B bikes. (Are you listening, Grant? You were right then, and you are wrong now!) And then, learn how to ride on gravel so that you don't crash so often. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
And Salukis come in canti version which lets you put really fatso tires in From: Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com Or, pity they're not made any more, to stay in the Riv family look for either a Bleriot or a Saluki. And no I do NOT mean a Hilsen, because they take the wrong size tires. I mean one of the 650B bikes. (Are you listening, Grant? You were right then, and you are wrong now!) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 17:14 -0700, Bruce wrote: And Salukis come in canti version which lets you put really fatso tires in Like mine, with Hetres: http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916...@n00/sets/72157617915097787/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
In a message dated 6/29/2009 7:27:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, palin...@his.com writes: Beyond that, obviously you need a new 650B bike That's obvious. Definitely a new bike! Whichever one you decide on, don't make the mistake of telling your wife that this new expensive bike will solve the problem and you'll never need another bike. Wives remember that. Mine is still reminding me of this foolish statement - ten years and 5 bikes later. Just between the two of us, use some common sense and use your brakes. Bill Louisville, Ky **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823281x1201398699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072hmpgID=62bcd= JunestepsfooterNO62) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Steve, I don't understand. My understanding is that the Saluki functionally still exists in that the AHH in sizes 58 and below is just a Saluki by a new name. The only thing I see not being made now that was made before are the following two things: 1) Sidepull Salukis (whether they are called Salukis or AHH's) with 650B wheels in the 60 and 62 cm frame sizes, and 2) Salukis with cantilever brake option Is the loss of either or both of these things what you are objecting to? Because it looks to me that if your frame size is from 47 to 58, the AHH offered is identical to what used to be the sidepull Saluki, and that bike is very similar to the Bleriot (excluding sizes 59 and 61). -James On Jun 29, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: Or, pity they're not made any more, to stay in the Riv family look for either a Bleriot or a Saluki. And no I do NOT mean a Hilsen, because they take the wrong size tires. I mean one of the 650B bikes. (Are you listening, Grant? You were right then, and you are wrong now!) And then, learn how to ride on gravel so that you don't crash so often. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 19:23 -0700, James Warren wrote: Steve, I don't understand. My understanding is that the Saluki functionally still exists in that the AHH in sizes 58 and below is just a Saluki by a new name. The Hilsen is a 700C bike except in small sizes, where it is 650B. In other words, the new Riv position is that 650B is just a way of working around the difficulty in fitting wide tires into little frames. It goes a bit further than that as well. The target tire for the Hilsen is the slightly-larger-than-32mm Jack Brown. IMHO where 650B really comes into its own is with the 38-42mm tires. I ride 32mm tires on my Velo Orange. I'm no stranger to 32mm tires. I'll take a 32mm onto a dirt road if I'm forced to, but I'm not going to go seeking out dirt roads for the sheer joy of it with a tire that narrow and (for me) that skittish and insecure. I'll go out of my way to ride my Saluki and my Kogswell on dirt roads. The only thing I see not being made now that was made before are the following two things: 1) Sidepull Salukis (whether they are called Salukis or AHH's) with 650B wheels in the 60 and 62 cm frame sizes, and And since 60cm is my size, you can see why I might feel the way I do. 2) Salukis with cantilever brake option I'm good with both canti's and centerpulls. Is the loss of either or both of these things what you are objecting to? Because it looks to me that if your frame size is from 47 to 58, the AHH offered is identical to what used to be the sidepull Saluki, and that bike is very similar to the Bleriot (excluding sizes 59 and 61). Where you stand depends on where you sit. And for me, that happens to be in the 59-60cm range. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Steve, What fenders are those on your Saluki with the Hetres? thanks, JimD On Jun 29, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 17:14 -0700, Bruce wrote: And Salukis come in canti version which lets you put really fatso tires in Like mine, with Hetres: http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916...@n00/sets/72157617915097787/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: More Problems with Gravel
Is the loss of either or both of these things what you are objecting to? Because it looks to me that if your frame size is from 47 to 58, the AHH offered is identical to what used to be the sidepull Saluki, and that bike is very similar to the Bleriot (excluding sizes 59 and 61). Where you stand depends on where you sit. And for me, that happens to be in the 59-60cm range. That's interesting. I am a 64 or 65 cm frame rider so the 650B phenomenon and my interests never crossed paths. I've just been enjoying the broadening of the usage spectrum for bikes that take 700C wheels. -James (still sweaty from the evening ride on the 55 cm MB-4, still with really low, really long stem and flat bars. I'm long and horizontal on that bike.) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
