Re: [RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Leverage is the wrong word, but the tri coach who fitted me said it allowed more power. It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. I know I feel like my stroke is stronger when my leg can extend a little more, but I realize that is not a physical argument. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:28 PM, RonaTD teddur...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
i find that when i take my pubic bone height minus ten cm the saddle is still a bit too low. i am six ft tall , with an 89 pbh and find i am most comfortable with the saddle at about 80 - 80.5. i think foot size must also be factored in. i have a size 13 shoe, i think that is why my saddle is a bit higher. i bet if my toes got chopped off i would prefer a bit lower saddle. thats why i moved to new york city, so i can stay far away from lawnmowers. jamison brosseau On Sep 28, 6:35 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Leverage is the wrong word, but the tri coach who fitted me said it allowed more power. It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. I know I feel like my stroke is stronger when my leg can extend a little more, but I realize that is not a physical argument. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:28 PM, RonaTD teddur...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. Or possibly even placebo effect in response to the person's salesmanship. On Sep 28, 5:35 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Leverage is the wrong word, but the tri coach who fitted me said it allowed more power. It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. I know I feel like my stroke is stronger when my leg can extend a little more, but I realize that is not a physical argument. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:28 PM, RonaTD teddur...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscrib...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
I don't think it's really a leverage issue at all. It has to do with the way the human body is built and the fact that the leg exerts much more power when only slightly flexed than it does when it's fully flexed. That's why its easier to jump up when the knee is only slightly bent than it is to leap up from a full squat; it's also why designers built eccentric hubs - to take maximum advantage of the greater power afforded by the 5:30-6:30 part of the pedal cycle and to let it coast more in the 11:00-1:00 position where the leg can't perform so much work. In general, the less your knees are bent, the more power you're delivering to the pedals; if you have too much flex at 6:00, then you're not taking advantage of whatyour leg muscles have to offer. Going back to the triathlete's original comment, it's possible he believed our guy could raise his saddle just a bit, take a little more flex out of his stroke, and thereby get a bit more power to the rear wheel. On Sep 28, 6:39 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. Or possibly even placebo effect in response to the person's salesmanship. On Sep 28, 5:35 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Leverage is the wrong word, but the tri coach who fitted me said it allowed more power. It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. I know I feel like my stroke is stronger when my leg can extend a little more, but I realize that is not a physical argument. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:28 PM, RonaTD teddur...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscrib...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Going back to the triathlete's original comment, it's possible he believed our guy could raise his saddle just a bit, take a little more flex out of his stroke, and thereby get a bit more power to the rear wheel. Albeit more likely he was being a busy body trying to sound knowledgeable. The guy is riding in a race, would have to in a less than ideal viewing position to assess the OP's riding dynamics, no mention on lightin or what the OP was wearing (could the tri-guy even see the OP's knees?), etc. To make any sort of meaningful comment, he would have to be looking at the OP while standing to his side. Even better veiwin a high def video in slow motion taken from the side. I would never pay attention to a knucklehead riding by me shouting out fit advice. On Sep 28, 10:20 am, kevin lindsey lindsey.ke...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it's really a leverage issue at all. It has to do with the way the human body is built and the fact that the leg exerts much more power when only slightly flexed than it does when it's fully flexed. That's why its easier to jump up when the knee is only slightly bent than it is to leap up from a full squat; it's also why designers built eccentric hubs - to take maximum advantage of the greater power afforded by the 5:30-6:30 part of the pedal cycle and to let it coast more in the 11:00-1:00 position where the leg can't perform so much work. In general, the less your knees are bent, the more power you're delivering to the pedals; if you have too much flex at 6:00, then you're not taking advantage of whatyour leg muscles have to offer. Going back to the triathlete's original comment, it's possible he believed our guy could raise his saddle just a bit, take a little more flex out of his stroke, and thereby get a bit more power to the rear wheel. On Sep 28, 6:39 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. Or possibly even placebo effect in response to the person's salesmanship. On Sep 28, 5:35 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Leverage is the wrong word, but the tri coach who fitted me said it allowed more power. It might be a muscular/skeletal thing, or it might simply enable a more aero posture. I know I feel like my stroke is stronger when my leg can extend a little more, but I realize that is not a physical argument. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:28 PM, RonaTD teddur...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscrib...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
2 centimeters, 4/5 of an inch? That's quite a bit. Did anyone ever offer observation to you that your hips were rocking when you pedaled? The other rule of foot-length is that heels just touching the pedals when the leg is fully extended implies the right bend at the knee when the distance from heel to place-of-foot over pedal is added. That said, common advice is that for many riders, moving cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot instead of under them is a better, if not most powerful position. That would imply a lower saddle, but just several mm. lower. On Sep 27, 10:28 am, Jeremy Till jeremy.t...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles about 2 cm. So far, my hamstrings are thanking me. It also has the added advantage of raising my bars by 2cm relative to my seat, making everything just slightly more comfy cockpit-wise. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
I start with my PBH measurement, then multiply by 1.09. I set the saddle to this height measuring along the seat tube from the axis of the pedal to the top of the saddle with the lower crank arm in line with the seat tube. I do this with the saddle level and centered on the saddle clamp. Then I ride-test it. Usually the bars are already in the correct position for me, which is about 2 cm below the saddle. If not, I change them. After this I have some rules for troubleshooting. I don't know if I should go into detail. The best shop fitting I had was when the coach used a goniometer to measure and set my knee angle at pedal bottom - between 25 and 30 degrees is the usual convention. This fitter used KOPS to set the saddle fore/aft position. The most critical thing is to get as much leg extension as you can without causing your hips to rock painfully. Will the simple knee extension rule do it for you? Only you can find out, but if another good rider says, you look a little low, it's reasonable to see if going up, maybe 1/8 inch at a time, does you any good without adding negatives - there are a lot of ways to look at it these days. Sometimes it takes a few hours or days to tell if a change brings negative effects with it. Try to mark or record your old position to be able to go back to the old position if it doesn't work. There is such a thing as going too far too fast with a change, having some pain, and needing to go back to where you were. Sometimes you need to do this while out on a ride. Think of that classic professional rider (forgot who) who carried wrenches to set his saddle in the middle of TdF stages! On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:16 AM, travis.ha...@gmail.com travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: 2 centimeters, 4/5 of an inch? That's quite a bit. Did anyone ever offer observation to you that your hips were rocking when you pedaled? The other rule of foot-length is that heels just touching the pedals when the leg is fully extended implies the right bend at the knee when the distance from heel to place-of-foot over pedal is added. That said, common advice is that for many riders, moving cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot instead of under them is a better, if not most powerful position. That would imply a lower saddle, but just several mm. lower. On Sep 27, 10:28 am, Jeremy Till jeremy.t...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles about 2 cm. So far, my hamstrings are thanking me. It also has the added advantage of raising my bars by 2cm relative to my seat, making everything just slightly more comfy cockpit-wise. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Another thing is that triathletes usually have their saddles placed farther forward and higher up than do road riders - different strokes for different sports! His advice might not be right for you. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.comwrote: I start with my PBH measurement, then multiply by 1.09. I set the saddle to this height measuring along the seat tube from the axis of the pedal to the top of the saddle with the lower crank arm in line with the seat tube. I do this with the saddle level and centered on the saddle clamp. Then I ride-test it. Usually the bars are already in the correct position for me, which is about 2 cm below the saddle. If not, I change them. After this I have some rules for troubleshooting. I don't know if I should go into detail. The best shop fitting I had was when the coach used a goniometer to measure and set my knee angle at pedal bottom - between 25 and 30 degrees is the usual convention. This fitter used KOPS to set the saddle fore/aft position. The most critical thing is to get as much leg extension as you can without causing your hips to rock painfully. Will the simple knee extension rule do it for you? Only you can find out, but if another good rider says, you look a little low, it's reasonable to see if going up, maybe 1/8 inch at a time, does you any good without adding negatives - there are a lot of ways to look at it these days. Sometimes it takes a few hours or days to tell if a change brings negative effects with it. Try to mark or record your old position to be able to go back to the old position if it doesn't work. There is such a thing as going too far too fast with a change, having some pain, and needing to go back to where you were. Sometimes you need to do this while out on a ride. Think of that classic professional rider (forgot who) who carried wrenches to set his saddle in the middle of TdF stages! On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:16 AM, travis.ha...@gmail.com travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: 2 centimeters, 4/5 of an inch? That's quite a bit. Did anyone ever offer observation to you that your hips were rocking when you pedaled? The other rule of foot-length is that heels just touching the pedals when the leg is fully extended implies the right bend at the knee when the distance from heel to place-of-foot over pedal is added. That said, common advice is that for many riders, moving cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot instead of under them is a better, if not most powerful position. That would imply a lower saddle, but just several mm. lower. On Sep 27, 10:28 am, Jeremy Till jeremy.t...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles about 2 cm. So far, my hamstrings are thanking me. It also has the added advantage of raising my bars by 2cm relative to my seat, making everything just slightly more comfy cockpit-wise. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Saddle height is very person specific. I went with Riv method of PBH minus 10 for a saddle height of 72cm. Earlier this year I developed knee pain that prevented me from riding for 2 months. I went to a fitter who raised my saddle by 1.5cm and it has made a world of difference. This was in addition to adjusting the cleats on my shoes. It can't hurt to play around. The fitter had my bike hooked up to some fancy trainer that measured watt output and noticed an increase with the changed made. It was a pretty interesting experience. On Sep 27, 5:55 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Another thing is that triathletes usually have their saddles placed farther forward and higher up than do road riders - different strokes for different sports! His advice might not be right for you. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.comwrote: I start with my PBH measurement, then multiply by 1.09. I set the saddle to this height measuring along the seat tube from the axis of the pedal to the top of the saddle with the lower crank arm in line with the seat tube. I do this with the saddle level and centered on the saddle clamp. Then I ride-test it. Usually the bars are already in the correct position for me, which is about 2 cm below the saddle. If not, I change them. After this I have some rules for troubleshooting. I don't know if I should go into detail. The best shop fitting I had was when the coach used a goniometer to measure and set my knee angle at pedal bottom - between 25 and 30 degrees is the usual convention. This fitter used KOPS to set the saddle fore/aft position. The most critical thing is to get as much leg extension as you can without causing your hips to rock painfully. Will the simple knee extension rule do it for you? Only you can find out, but if another good rider says, you look a little low, it's reasonable to see if going up, maybe 1/8 inch at a time, does you any good without adding negatives - there are a lot of ways to look at it these days. Sometimes it takes a few hours or days to tell if a change brings negative effects with it. Try to mark or record your old position to be able to go back to the old position if it doesn't work. There is such a thing as going too far too fast with a change, having some pain, and needing to go back to where you were. Sometimes you need to do this while out on a ride. Think of that classic professional rider (forgot who) who carried wrenches to set his saddle in the middle of TdF stages! On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:16 AM, travis.ha...@gmail.com travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: 2 centimeters, 4/5 of an inch? That's quite a bit. Did anyone ever offer observation to you that your hips were rocking when you pedaled? The other rule of foot-length is that heels just touching the pedals when the leg is fully extended implies the right bend at the knee when the distance from heel to place-of-foot over pedal is added. That said, common advice is that for many riders, moving cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot instead of under them is a better, if not most powerful position. That would imply a lower saddle, but just several mm. lower. On Sep 27, 10:28 am, Jeremy Till jeremy.t...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles about 2 cm. So far, my hamstrings are thanking me. It also has the added advantage of raising my bars by 2cm relative to my seat, making everything just slightly more comfy cockpit-wise. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Very impressed with the effort some of you put into finding optimal seat height. I eyeball it when setting up the bike then make sure I have the appropriate seat post adjusting tool with me the first few rides (usually have this in any event - cepting the bike with the Pitlock binder.) On Sep 27, 9:12 am, sjauch sja...@gmail.com wrote: Saddle height is very person specific. I went with Riv method of PBH minus 10 for a saddle height of 72cm. Earlier this year I developed knee pain that prevented me from riding for 2 months. I went to a fitter who raised my saddle by 1.5cm and it has made a world of difference. This was in addition to adjusting the cleats on my shoes. It can't hurt to play around. The fitter had my bike hooked up to some fancy trainer that measured watt output and noticed an increase with the changed made. It was a pretty interesting experience. On Sep 27, 5:55 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Another thing is that triathletes usually have their saddles placed farther forward and higher up than do road riders - different strokes for different sports! His advice might not be right for you. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.comwrote: I start with my PBH measurement, then multiply by 1.09. I set the saddle to this height measuring along the seat tube from the axis of the pedal to the top of the saddle with the lower crank arm in line with the seat tube. I do this with the saddle level and centered on the saddle clamp. Then I ride-test it. Usually the bars are already in the correct position for me, which is about 2 cm below the saddle. If not, I change them. After this I have some rules for troubleshooting. I don't know if I should go into detail. The best shop fitting I had was when the coach used a goniometer to measure and set my knee angle at pedal bottom - between 25 and 30 degrees is the usual convention. This fitter used KOPS to set the saddle fore/aft position. The most critical thing is to get as much leg extension as you can without causing your hips to rock painfully. Will the simple knee extension rule do it for you? Only you can find out, but if another good rider says, you look a little low, it's reasonable to see if going up, maybe 1/8 inch at a time, does you any good without adding negatives - there are a lot of ways to look at it these days. Sometimes it takes a few hours or days to tell if a change brings negative effects with it. Try to mark or record your old position to be able to go back to the old position if it doesn't work. There is such a thing as going too far too fast with a change, having some pain, and needing to go back to where you were. Sometimes you need to do this while out on a ride. Think of that classic professional rider (forgot who) who carried wrenches to set his saddle in the middle of TdF stages! On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:16 AM, travis.ha...@gmail.com travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: 2 centimeters, 4/5 of an inch? That's quite a bit. Did anyone ever offer observation to you that your hips were rocking when you pedaled? The other rule of foot-length is that heels just touching the pedals when the leg is fully extended implies the right bend at the knee when the distance from heel to place-of-foot over pedal is added. That said, common advice is that for many riders, moving cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot instead of under them is a better, if not most powerful position. That would imply a lower saddle, but just several mm. lower. On Sep 27, 10:28 am, Jeremy Till jeremy.t...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles about 2 cm. So far, my hamstrings are thanking me. It also has the added advantage of raising my bars by 2cm relative to my seat, making everything just slightly more comfy cockpit-wise. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
David Wilson, in Bicycle Science (the bible of bicycle engineering), advocated no knee flex at 6:00, meaning that a rider seeking maximum efficiency should raise his or her saddle just a bit if his or her knee is slightly bent at that position. Any flex there and you lose a significant amount of power from your stroke. That's the theory. In practice, as even Wilson admitted, you need just a wee bit of flex in order to avoid undue stress to the knees, if I recall correctly. In essence, it's possible that the triathlete thought that your knee was bend a bit more than necessary and that your saddle could indeed come up. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Speaking as someone with somewhat troublesome knees, I cannot stand having my saddle height any lower than even 1-2 cm below my highest tolerable position. If I'm not getting a full extension with my quad I have a sensation of holding my breath in my knees. Also, your legs are strongest at the top of your extension. The real difference between TT, racing, and touring saddle positions is fore-to-aft. Having your saddle further forward is more efficient but less comfortable. When sliding your saddle back for comfort you must also lose some height to reproduce the same distance from saddle top to pedal. That triathlete type may not know the difference and was just assuming all saddle positions should be equal. Also, increases in flexibility allow an increase in saddle height. On Sep 27, 10:43 am, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Very impressed with the effort some of you put into finding optimal seat height. I eyeball it when setting up the bike then make sure I have the appropriate seat post adjusting tool with me the first few rides (usually have this in any event - cepting the bike with the Pitlock binder.) On Sep 27, 9:12 am, sjauch sja...@gmail.com wrote: Saddle height is very person specific. I went with Riv method of PBH minus 10 for a saddle height of 72cm. Earlier this year I developed knee pain that prevented me from riding for 2 months. I went to a fitter who raised my saddle by 1.5cm and it has made a world of difference. This was in addition to adjusting the cleats on my shoes. It can't hurt to play around. The fitter had my bike hooked up to some fancy trainer that measured watt output and noticed an increase with the changed made. It was a pretty interesting experience. On Sep 27, 5:55 am, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.com wrote: Another thing is that triathletes usually have their saddles placed farther forward and higher up than do road riders - different strokes for different sports! His advice might not be right for you. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Ken Freeman kenfreeman...@gmail.comwrote: I start with my PBH measurement, then multiply by 1.09. I set the saddle to this height measuring along the seat tube from the axis of the pedal to the top of the saddle with the lower crank arm in line with the seat tube. I do this with the saddle level and centered on the saddle clamp. Then I ride-test it. Usually the bars are already in the correct position for me, which is about 2 cm below the saddle. If not, I change them. After this I have some rules for troubleshooting. I don't know if I should go into detail. The best shop fitting I had was when the coach used a goniometer to measure and set my knee angle at pedal bottom - between 25 and 30 degrees is the usual convention. This fitter used KOPS to set the saddle fore/aft position. The most critical thing is to get as much leg extension as you can without causing your hips to rock painfully. Will the simple knee extension rule do it for you? Only you can find out, but if another good rider says, you look a little low, it's reasonable to see if going up, maybe 1/8 inch at a time, does you any good without adding negatives - there are a lot of ways to look at it these days. Sometimes it takes a few hours or days to tell if a change brings negative effects with it. Try to mark or record your old position to be able to go back to the old position if it doesn't work. There is such a thing as going too far too fast with a change, having some pain, and needing to go back to where you were. Sometimes you need to do this while out on a ride. Think of that classic professional rider (forgot who) who carried wrenches to set his saddle in the middle of TdF stages! On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:16 AM, travis.ha...@gmail.com travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: 2 centimeters, 4/5 of an inch? That's quite a bit. Did anyone ever offer observation to you that your hips were rocking when you pedaled? The other rule of foot-length is that heels just touching the pedals when the leg is fully extended implies the right bend at the knee when the distance from heel to place-of-foot over pedal is added. That said, common advice is that for many riders, moving cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot instead of under them is a better, if not most powerful position. That would imply a lower saddle, but just several mm. lower. On Sep 27, 10:28 am, Jeremy Till jeremy.t...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles
Re: [RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Waht was the relationship of the foot to the pedal in this recommendation. It will make a big difference if the ball of the foot is on the pedal versus the rear of the foot or heel. Most modern discussions allow that there is definitely such a thing as having too small of a knee angle at max extension, with 25 degrees being a common minimum recommendation. Whether or thot that is just a wee bit of flex is beyond me. I'd prefer to work to the number or to use my elaborate method. And, it didn't feel wee to me when I was set up by this method. The stress on knees from too little knee angle is in the back of the knee. For too much knee angle, it's the back of the kneecap, felt in the front of the knee. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:31 AM, kevin lindsey lindsey.ke...@gmail.comwrote: David Wilson, in Bicycle Science (the bible of bicycle engineering), advocated no knee flex at 6:00, meaning that a rider seeking maximum efficiency should raise his or her saddle just a bit if his or her knee is slightly bent at that position. Any flex there and you lose a significant amount of power from your stroke. That's the theory. In practice, as even Wilson admitted, you need just a wee bit of flex in order to avoid undue stress to the knees, if I recall correctly. In essence, it's possible that the triathlete thought that your knee was bend a bit more than necessary and that your saddle could indeed come up. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Travis travisbreitenb...@gmail.com wrote: Having your saddle further forward is more efficient but less comfortable. Where did you get this information? That is not at all my experience, which is wholly the contrary: pushing the saddle backward (I have mine very far behind the bb) encourages a much more powerful stroke than a far forward saddle -- I know, on Grant's advice I changed my saddle from all the way forward (mistakenly chasing the elusive KOPS while keeping a high saddle) to, now, all the way back (this over a period of some 15 years) and find that the butt back position makes my stroke far, far more powerful. I had complained to Grant that, with a very forward saddle position, I felt as if I were losing the stroke at the top. Now that I am behind the bb, I have much more power over the top. I'll agree with you about the more comfortable assertion. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Come to think of it, the guy did look like he spent a lot more time on the bike than in the books. I'm a lawyer, so the only leverage I recognize doesn't involve mechanics. GeorgeS On Sep 27, 6:28 pm, RonaTD teddur...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. More leverage from a higher saddle? I'd like to see the physics that validates that assertion. td -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
I ride with my knees very slightly bent at 6 o'clock too...i think you're fine. I bet the kid is probably not used to seeing handlebars even or slightly higher than the saddle and so he thinks your saddle is too low. On Sep 26, 8:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
If you want to double check, you could measure your pubic bone height (PBH) using the method on the rivendell site and then apply their formula for seat height, which is PBH minus 10-10.5cm. I did this recently and ended up lowering my saddles about 2 cm. So far, my hamstrings are thanking me. It also has the added advantage of raising my bars by 2cm relative to my seat, making everything just slightly more comfy cockpit-wise. On Sep 26, 6:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Not all riders of Rivendells ride with our handlebars even with the saddle. I took advantage of that option for a couple of years, but then I came to realize that lower bars were better for me, and the even bars are not actually an advantage. I am tall with long arms, so that factors in. -Jim W. On Sep 26, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Rocky B wrote: I ride with my knees very slightly bent at 6 o'clock too...i think you're fine. I bet the kid is probably not used to seeing handlebars even or slightly higher than the saddle and so he thinks your saddle is too low. On Sep 26, 8:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: New Thoughts on Saddle Height?
Had he slowed down a bit, it may have been a great opportunity to educate him about handlebar height and riding comfort. And saddle height, too. I have these conversations occasionally when go fast types criticize my Rambouillet as hopelessly old school. It's a great moment for teaching accumulated wisdom. Steve On Sep 26, 8:29 pm, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote: I rode my club's century today and as I was toiling up a hill, a young triathlete sort on a plastic thing (the tubes were not even round!) came by me and he said Sir, you might want to raise your seat a bit so you'll get more leverage. Unsolicited advice is so cool. My immediate thought was to tell him that I had been riding bikes since before he was born, but I've been trying to keep my mouth out of gear so I didn't say anything. But then I started thinking that back in the day, the rule of thumb, at least as it was passed down to me, was that when the pedal is in the 6 o'clock position, the knee should be very slightly bent. I've been doing that with every bike I've set up for lo these many years. Was that wrong? Has there been any progress in thinking on this subject? GeorgeS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
