Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[NickBull]

My advice if you're just starting out in randonneuring is ride what you 
own.  That will give you a chance to figure out whether you really like it, 
and what "style" of randonneuring you want to do.  People succeed at 
randonneuring on all sorts of different bikes.

My first five years randonneuring I rode high-trail bikes with most of the 
load in a saddlebag and a moderate amount in a handlebar bag.  The last six 
years I've ridden low-trail bikes with most of the load in a handlebar bag 
and only a small portion in a saddlebag.  I like low-trail better, but it's 
not a deal-breaker either way.  Way more important is to have a bike that 
fits well and that is lively.

Nick Bull
RBA MD:Capital Region / DC Randonneurs

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 7:01:30 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> Thanks very much for the thoughts, Bill! You described exactly the sort of 
> experience I was hoping to hear about. 
>
> I'm currently considering training for a couple brevets. I've never done 
> one, and it both seems like an interesting challenge and a good training 
> goal. At the moment the two most appropriate (or perhaps I should say least 
> inappropriate) bikes I own for such a thing are a drop bar'd Hunqapillar 
> and an old 2004 Madone race bike that was given to me and then ignored. I'm 
> concerned that the Hunq is overbuilt for randonneuring and that the Madone 
> would simply be unpleasant. But then, I'm also concerned I'm just looking 
> for an excuse to buy another bike!
>
> Do you feel randonneuring benefits hugely from a purpose-built bike, or 
> should I just go for it with what I have?
>
>
> Best,
> Reed
>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> Reed asked:
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid 
>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of 
>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>
>> Yes I do.  I think both are fine.  Some people feel like it's a night and 
>> day kind of difference, and I don't feel that way.  My two low-trail bikes 
>> are both Rawlands.  I have their road model, the Nordavinden, and their 
>> 650b rando model, the Stag.  My Stag is still my primary brevet bike and 
>> it's terrific.  I did a lot of brevets on a 650B A Homer Hilsen before that 
>> and it was great, too, but I felt it was somewhat overbuilt for that 
>> brevet-only use.  Let me know if you want to check out my Nordavinden (it's 
>> a 58-59 Large).  I used that as a platform to just explore the concepts, 
>> and I feel like I've learned what I needed to learn.  Most recently I had 
>> braze-on centerpulls attached to see what the fuss was about.  I'm now 
>> moving my road bike exploration towards contemporary gravel bike concepts.  
>>
>> I'm a big fan of front loading in general.  I put stuff in saddle bags 
>> only as a last resort.  I think front loading works great for me on high 
>> trail and low trail.  In my experience a low trail bike unloaded is still 
>> fine.  
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
>>> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
>>> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
>>> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
>>> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
>>> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
>>> loads up front.
>>>
>>> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>>>
>>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid 
>>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of 
>>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>>
>>>
>>> Reed
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[stonehog]

Here are my thoughts on low trail vs. mid (riv) trail from a few months 
back: 

https://stonehog.com/2016/01/06/trail-riding/

Brian Hanson
Seattle, WA

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
> loads up front.
>
> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>
> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame, 
> carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What 
> did you think of each?
>
>
> Reed
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Tim Gavin]

Damnit, you're right.  1 1/8 only, which wouldn't fit in my Riv frame.

Evan Baird frequents this list and the iBOB list, and he floated a question
to gauge interest on other versions, like with 1" steerers and/or
cantilever posts for 650b cantilever wheels.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Jeremy Tavan  wrote:

> If only the Champs Elysees forks came in 1" threaded steerer versions...
>
> /Jeremy
>
> On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 1:48:55 PM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
>>
>> Yes, a replacement fork seems like an easy way to try low trail.  There
>> are several framebuilders who will make you a low trail custom fork; Jeff
>> Lyon seems to be a popular choice.
>>
>> Soma also sells a couple low trail forks, named "Champs Elysees"
>>
>> Sidepull version, for 650b with long reach brakes:
>> http://store.somafab.com/chellowtrrof.html
>>
>> Cantilever version, for 700c (unsure of clearance, but it looks generous)
>> http://store.somafab.com/sochelfoca.html
>>
>> I'm considering buying the sidepull Champs Elysees to try on my Riv
>> Road/650b.  I really like the rando bag I have on it but would prefer less
>> wheel flop.  Some eyelets on the front of the dropouts and mid-fork eyelets
>> would be nice as well, since I'm using my Riv as a tourer.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Reed Kennedy  wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, thanks David! I'd missed that detail. What an interesting way to try
>>> lower trail. I'm going to consider giving that a go...
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Reed
>>>
>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Jeremy Tavan]

If only the Champs Elysees forks came in 1" threaded steerer versions...

/Jeremy

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 1:48:55 PM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> Yes, a replacement fork seems like an easy way to try low trail.  There 
> are several framebuilders who will make you a low trail custom fork; Jeff 
> Lyon seems to be a popular choice.
>
> Soma also sells a couple low trail forks, named "Champs Elysees"
>
> Sidepull version, for 650b with long reach brakes:
> http://store.somafab.com/chellowtrrof.html
>
> Cantilever version, for 700c (unsure of clearance, but it looks generous)
> http://store.somafab.com/sochelfoca.html
>
> I'm considering buying the sidepull Champs Elysees to try on my Riv 
> Road/650b.  I really like the rando bag I have on it but would prefer less 
> wheel flop.  Some eyelets on the front of the dropouts and mid-fork eyelets 
> would be nice as well, since I'm using my Riv as a tourer.
>
> Cheers,
> Tim
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Reed Kennedy  > wrote:
>
>> Ah, thanks David! I'd missed that detail. What an interesting way to try 
>> lower trail. I'm going to consider giving that a go...
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Reed
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Tim Gavin]

Yes, a replacement fork seems like an easy way to try low trail.  There are
several framebuilders who will make you a low trail custom fork; Jeff Lyon
seems to be a popular choice.

Soma also sells a couple low trail forks, named "Champs Elysees"

Sidepull version, for 650b with long reach brakes:
http://store.somafab.com/chellowtrrof.html

Cantilever version, for 700c (unsure of clearance, but it looks generous)
http://store.somafab.com/sochelfoca.html

I'm considering buying the sidepull Champs Elysees to try on my Riv
Road/650b.  I really like the rando bag I have on it but would prefer less
wheel flop.  Some eyelets on the front of the dropouts and mid-fork eyelets
would be nice as well, since I'm using my Riv as a tourer.

Cheers,
Tim


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Reed Kennedy  wrote:

> Ah, thanks David! I'd missed that detail. What an interesting way to try
> lower trail. I'm going to consider giving that a go...
>
>
> Best,
> Reed
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

Ah, thanks David! I'd missed that detail. What an interesting way to try
lower trail. I'm going to consider giving that a go...


Best,
Reed

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:37 PM, David Banzer  wrote:

> I believe Rene had custom forks built with higher rake than the Riv stock
> fork, yielding lower trail.
> David
> Chicago
>
> On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 1:17:13 PM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> Hey René, are you sure about the 40mm trail on the Hunqapillar? This
>> image on Riv's site:
>> http://www.rivbike.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/WFHunq62.jpg
>> (From the Hunq page: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hunqapillar.htm )
>> Seems to indicate a massive-sounding 67.3mm trail. Or is that talking
>> about some other sort of trail, or measuring it differently?
>>
>> I'd assumed that my Hunqapillar borders on being quite-high-trail. But if
>> it really is 40mm and the others we've been talking about are but 1cm less,
>> well, that doesn't seem like so much...
>>
>> Would you mind letting me know where you found the 40mm number for the
>> Hunq?
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Reed
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:07 PM, René Sterental 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Garth,
>>>
>>> After my extensive research and e-mail exchanges with Jan, plus my
>>> experience with my Atlantis & Hunqapillar, for upright riding, the low
>>> trail target should be 40mm. The Rando bikes depicted usually have around
>>> 29mm of trail, meant for more forward positioning/fast riding with lower
>>> handlebars.
>>>
>>> The Atlantis/Hunqapillar have 40mm of trail and ride very well loaded
>>> and unloaded; riding them loaded is amazingly nice.
>>>
>>> For my custom, I requested 35mm of trail to have a bit more of the "pure
>>> low trail" characteristics and also because i'm now riding with my bars
>>> almost level with my saddle.
>>>
>>> Still, if in doubt, 40mm seems to be the magical most versatile low
>>> trail number to go for. And all caveats about getting used to what you ride
>>> apply.
>>>
>>> Also, the difference in handling between 30 and 40mm of trail is much
>>> less than the difference between 40 and 55, according to Jan's articles.
>>>
>>> René
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:29 AM, Garth  wrote:
>>>

   While I see lots about low trail bikes with drop bars , I have not
 heard/seen much about riding on low trail bikes with long sloping top
 tubes(6+ degrees) and high bars(at least above the saddle height).
 Basically a much higher center of gravity than a drop bar bike.  A recent
 blug post GP mentioned something about this not being so desirable but did
 not elaborate.

So basically I'm wondering how a Bombadil or Hunq would be with Alba
 type bars at least couple inches above the saddle would be ?

 I've considered another Bombadil or even a Hunq type frame but I need
 more front foot-tire/fender clearance than either stock bike offers in
 60+cm. frames.  I could do this by either going to a low trail design
 and/or 650b wheels but I have no idea how it would ride.

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
 an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[dougP]

Reed:

I have a lower trail fork on my Atlantis.  The stock one is 65 mm.  The 
custom is 40 mm.  While the difference is noticeable, it is subtle and not 
huge.  It was exactly what I was looking for, in fact.  Like others, I 
prefer front loading.  

Chris makes a valid point.  The low trail is part of the Rambler design, 
whereas my approach is a modification.  "Designed in" is usually preferable 
to "tacked on".  Since a bike's designer must take into account all the 
parameters of tubing dia., wall thickness, angles, etc., a complete 
approach is optimal.  OTH, simply changing the fork on my Atlantis has 
improved it for my purposes.  

dougP

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 11:21:15 AM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for the extremely educational thoughts, comments, and 
> experiences that have been shared here! I'm somewhat abashed to neglected 
> the search feature and to have started another round of what sounds like a 
> well discussed thread, but I've just loved reading what everyone was kind 
> enough to write. What great information!
>
> It does sound like there is something to the whole low trail thing. I'm 
> going to try to find one to take for a ride see how they feel to me in 
> person. N+1 bikes, as always!
>
>
> Best,
> Reed
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Pondero  > wrote:
>
>> Reed, I currently have two Rivs (Hilsen and QB) and an Ocean Air Cycles 
>> Rambler.  I love them all.  To me the differences are subtle in the sense 
>> that they all ride like bicycles, but the differences are significant when 
>> it comes to how they handle/feel under different riding conditions.  For 
>> example, I love the sensations of my Rivs on a descent, and I appreciate 
>> how front loads have almost no impact on the handling of my Rambler.  I 
>> tried front loads on my Rivs but it felt to me like the wheel flop was 
>> amplified and took away from the delightful feel of the steering when rear 
>> loaded.  So I decided I wanted to try a low trail design frameset.  The 
>> Rambler handles front loads wonderfully, and I have come to enjoy the 
>> convenience of having things "right there".  As a small, light rider, I 
>> also enjoy the livelier/more flexible standard diameter tubing.  Lately, 
>> and for how I like to use a bicycle, my Rambler has been my ace.  But I 
>> could easily be happy with any one of my bikes if forced to own only one.
>>
>> Chris Johnson
>> Sanger, Texas
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[David Banzer]

I believe Rene had custom forks built with higher rake than the Riv stock 
fork, yielding lower trail.
David
Chicago

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 1:17:13 PM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> Hey René, are you sure about the 40mm trail on the Hunqapillar? This image 
> on Riv's site:
> http://www.rivbike.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/WFHunq62.jpg
> (From the Hunq page: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hunqapillar.htm )
> Seems to indicate a massive-sounding 67.3mm trail. Or is that talking 
> about some other sort of trail, or measuring it differently?
>
> I'd assumed that my Hunqapillar borders on being quite-high-trail. But if 
> it really is 40mm and the others we've been talking about are but 1cm less, 
> well, that doesn't seem like so much...
>
> Would you mind letting me know where you found the 40mm number for the 
> Hunq?
>
>
> Best,
> Reed
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:07 PM, René Sterental  > wrote:
>
>> Hi Garth,
>>
>> After my extensive research and e-mail exchanges with Jan, plus my 
>> experience with my Atlantis & Hunqapillar, for upright riding, the low 
>> trail target should be 40mm. The Rando bikes depicted usually have around 
>> 29mm of trail, meant for more forward positioning/fast riding with lower 
>> handlebars.
>>
>> The Atlantis/Hunqapillar have 40mm of trail and ride very well loaded and 
>> unloaded; riding them loaded is amazingly nice.
>>
>> For my custom, I requested 35mm of trail to have a bit more of the "pure 
>> low trail" characteristics and also because i'm now riding with my bars 
>> almost level with my saddle.
>>
>> Still, if in doubt, 40mm seems to be the magical most versatile low trail 
>> number to go for. And all caveats about getting used to what you ride apply.
>>
>> Also, the difference in handling between 30 and 40mm of trail is much 
>> less than the difference between 40 and 55, according to Jan's articles.
>>
>> René 
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:29 AM, Garth  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>   While I see lots about low trail bikes with drop bars , I have not 
>>> heard/seen much about riding on low trail bikes with long sloping top 
>>> tubes(6+ degrees) and high bars(at least above the saddle height).  
>>> Basically a much higher center of gravity than a drop bar bike.  A recent 
>>> blug post GP mentioned something about this not being so desirable but did 
>>> not elaborate.  
>>>
>>>So basically I'm wondering how a Bombadil or Hunq would be with Alba 
>>> type bars at least couple inches above the saddle would be ?  
>>>
>>> I've considered another Bombadil or even a Hunq type frame but I need 
>>> more front foot-tire/fender clearance than either stock bike offers in 
>>> 60+cm. frames.  I could do this by either going to a low trail design 
>>> and/or 650b wheels but I have no idea how it would ride. 
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

Thanks everyone for the extremely educational thoughts, comments, and
experiences that have been shared here! I'm somewhat abashed to neglected
the search feature and to have started another round of what sounds like a
well discussed thread, but I've just loved reading what everyone was kind
enough to write. What great information!

It does sound like there is something to the whole low trail thing. I'm
going to try to find one to take for a ride see how they feel to me in
person. N+1 bikes, as always!


Best,
Reed

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Pondero  wrote:

> Reed, I currently have two Rivs (Hilsen and QB) and an Ocean Air Cycles
> Rambler.  I love them all.  To me the differences are subtle in the sense
> that they all ride like bicycles, but the differences are significant when
> it comes to how they handle/feel under different riding conditions.  For
> example, I love the sensations of my Rivs on a descent, and I appreciate
> how front loads have almost no impact on the handling of my Rambler.  I
> tried front loads on my Rivs but it felt to me like the wheel flop was
> amplified and took away from the delightful feel of the steering when rear
> loaded.  So I decided I wanted to try a low trail design frameset.  The
> Rambler handles front loads wonderfully, and I have come to enjoy the
> convenience of having things "right there".  As a small, light rider, I
> also enjoy the livelier/more flexible standard diameter tubing.  Lately,
> and for how I like to use a bicycle, my Rambler has been my ace.  But I
> could easily be happy with any one of my bikes if forced to own only one.
>
> Chris Johnson
> Sanger, Texas
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

Hey René, are you sure about the 40mm trail on the Hunqapillar? This image
on Riv's site:
http://www.rivbike.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/WFHunq62.jpg
(From the Hunq page: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hunqapillar.htm )
Seems to indicate a massive-sounding 67.3mm trail. Or is that talking about
some other sort of trail, or measuring it differently?

I'd assumed that my Hunqapillar borders on being quite-high-trail. But if
it really is 40mm and the others we've been talking about are but 1cm less,
well, that doesn't seem like so much...

Would you mind letting me know where you found the 40mm number for the Hunq?


Best,
Reed

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:07 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> Hi Garth,
>
> After my extensive research and e-mail exchanges with Jan, plus my
> experience with my Atlantis & Hunqapillar, for upright riding, the low
> trail target should be 40mm. The Rando bikes depicted usually have around
> 29mm of trail, meant for more forward positioning/fast riding with lower
> handlebars.
>
> The Atlantis/Hunqapillar have 40mm of trail and ride very well loaded and
> unloaded; riding them loaded is amazingly nice.
>
> For my custom, I requested 35mm of trail to have a bit more of the "pure
> low trail" characteristics and also because i'm now riding with my bars
> almost level with my saddle.
>
> Still, if in doubt, 40mm seems to be the magical most versatile low trail
> number to go for. And all caveats about getting used to what you ride apply.
>
> Also, the difference in handling between 30 and 40mm of trail is much less
> than the difference between 40 and 55, according to Jan's articles.
>
> René
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:29 AM, Garth  wrote:
>
>>
>>   While I see lots about low trail bikes with drop bars , I have not
>> heard/seen much about riding on low trail bikes with long sloping top
>> tubes(6+ degrees) and high bars(at least above the saddle height).
>> Basically a much higher center of gravity than a drop bar bike.  A recent
>> blug post GP mentioned something about this not being so desirable but did
>> not elaborate.
>>
>>So basically I'm wondering how a Bombadil or Hunq would be with Alba
>> type bars at least couple inches above the saddle would be ?
>>
>> I've considered another Bombadil or even a Hunq type frame but I need
>> more front foot-tire/fender clearance than either stock bike offers in
>> 60+cm. frames.  I could do this by either going to a low trail design
>> and/or 650b wheels but I have no idea how it would ride.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Pondero]

Reed, I currently have two Rivs (Hilsen and QB) and an Ocean Air Cycles 
Rambler.  I love them all.  To me the differences are subtle in the sense 
that they all ride like bicycles, but the differences are significant when 
it comes to how they handle/feel under different riding conditions.  For 
example, I love the sensations of my Rivs on a descent, and I appreciate 
how front loads have almost no impact on the handling of my Rambler.  I 
tried front loads on my Rivs but it felt to me like the wheel flop was 
amplified and took away from the delightful feel of the steering when rear 
loaded.  So I decided I wanted to try a low trail design frameset.  The 
Rambler handles front loads wonderfully, and I have come to enjoy the 
convenience of having things "right there".  As a small, light rider, I 
also enjoy the livelier/more flexible standard diameter tubing.  Lately, 
and for how I like to use a bicycle, my Rambler has been my ace.  But I 
could easily be happy with any one of my bikes if forced to own only one.

Chris Johnson
Sanger, Texas

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[masmojo]

I have a couple low trail bikes & a couple that I presume are not and honestly 
my overall impression is I like the steering on my low trail bikes better,  but 
they have other issues that are mildly annoying,  (toe overlap, etc.) I got 
into trying to digest it at one point,  but honestly what I discovered is that 
there is so much that effects the steering that it is way too complicated to 
say low trail or not! 
Head tube angle,  head tube height, fork rake, fork height, top tube length & 
even the seat angle or the thickness/strength of the seat stays can effect the 
steering,  especially when riding no hands!
So, ultimately it's a mix of all these elements and how the interact with the 
rider, who is also different then the next rider and the next, etc.
That said I also prefer front loading over rear, I wish rear worked better for 
me, but it doesn't. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Garth]

  I just ran across this article today and it answered many of my questions 
and more I had not considered like the low trail fork had on rough 
pavement. Sounds pretty great to me, I'm sold :)   

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-rakes-progress.html

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[GAJett]

Been riding my AHH about 4 years now.  Other than gearing, it's just a 
"stock" set up by Riv., including the Nitto F-15 / Barsack, Noodles, Rich 
wheels, and Schwalbe Marathons. I rarely carry more than 5 pounds up front, 
usually less.  I dare not take my hands off the handlebars of the Hilson as 
the shimmy starts immediately. And it doesn't matter if I have added weight 
on the rear.  

I previously rode an early-model Raleigh Competition in a size really too 
large for me.  Would commonly carry up to 10 pounds in a handlebar bag.  I 
sometimes add another 25 in front panniers.  Never a problem with shimmy or 
riding hands free. No real idea why as I don't know how the geometries 
compare. 
gajett

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
> loads up front.
>
> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>
> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame, 
> carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What 
> did you think of each?
>
>
> Reed
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Lungimsam]

My Bleriot seems to take front loads just fine.

But I am interested in a lighter tubing frame for my next bike.

So that means Roadeo or Low trail skinny tubed Boulder. Anyone want to trade 
their Roadeo for my Blue Hillborne?... didn't think so...ok.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[dstein]

I have a hunqapillar and recently built up an ocean air rambler. I'm still 
playing with the bar height/stem length/seat height/seat setback combo for 
the rambler and I haven't been on a long ride yet so hard to draw any 
definitive conclusions. For context, I don't do rando rides, but I do ride 
with a wald basket and sackville shopsack up front with anything from 2-15 
lbs in it. I never felt like the handling was off or needed to feel any 
different on the hunqapillar. I bought the rambler for other reasons. But 
that being said, I'm also undecided on how I like the handling of the 
rambler vs. the hunqapillar. It feels twitchier to me, with or without a 
load, the hunqapillar feels more stable, but maybe some of that is 
attributed to dialing in some other things I mentioned. But as others have 
said, once you're out riding for a bit you kinda don't really notice any 
more. I really question the low trail thing for front loads because I 
haven't met a Rivendell that can't handle the front load (and I've owned 
and ridden a SH, QB, and Cheviot).

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

So, Tom, you like GP's "ways", the only thing you hate is... riding the 
bicycles he designs and sells. I guess you could say you're on topic. At 
least this once! Makes me wonder.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 11:54:15 AM UTC-4, tdusky wrote:
>
>
> I hate riding my other bikes and I need to sell them. I am a steel, 
> leather wool guy all the way and find most of GP's way to be good. But why 
> does he build these mid trail bikes? Makes me wonder.
> BTW my 63cm Long Low dark red custom Rivendell Joe Stark build and my 64cm 
> Atlantis are for sale. So get a low trail and you can go N-2 :)
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Garth]

  Thank you Rene as this is very valuable !   I'm still trying to wrap my 
head around what these bikes handle like compared to the Bombadil I have. I 
also have another sport/touring type frame with less trail which handles 
like every racing bike frame I used to ride, which means the front end 
responds to every little upper body movement.  The Bombadil in comparison 
is resistant in that way, better responding to hip movement.  The sport 
touring bike while standing feels completely different than the Bombadil 
too, almost as if on the Bombadil I'm pushing a wheelbarrow . 

  So with even lower trail than the kind of racing bike likely with mid 
50's trail, would it be even moreso responsive to every upper body movement 
or something altogether different ? 



On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:07:59 PM UTC-4, René wrote:
>
> Hi Garth,
>
> After my extensive research and e-mail exchanges with Jan, plus my 
> experience with my Atlantis & Hunqapillar, for upright riding, the low 
> trail target should be 40mm. The Rando bikes depicted usually have around 
> 29mm of trail, meant for more forward positioning/fast riding with lower 
> handlebars.
>
> The Atlantis/Hunqapillar have 40mm of trail and ride very well loaded and 
> unloaded; riding them loaded is amazingly nice.
>
> For my custom, I requested 35mm of trail to have a bit more of the "pure 
> low trail" characteristics and also because i'm now riding with my bars 
> almost level with my saddle.
>
> Still, if in doubt, 40mm seems to be the magical most versatile low trail 
> number to go for. And all caveats about getting used to what you ride apply.
>
> Also, the difference in handling between 30 and 40mm of trail is much less 
> than the difference between 40 and 55, according to Jan's articles.
>
> René 
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[René Sterental]

Hi Garth,

After my extensive research and e-mail exchanges with Jan, plus my
experience with my Atlantis & Hunqapillar, for upright riding, the low
trail target should be 40mm. The Rando bikes depicted usually have around
29mm of trail, meant for more forward positioning/fast riding with lower
handlebars.

The Atlantis/Hunqapillar have 40mm of trail and ride very well loaded and
unloaded; riding them loaded is amazingly nice.

For my custom, I requested 35mm of trail to have a bit more of the "pure
low trail" characteristics and also because i'm now riding with my bars
almost level with my saddle.

Still, if in doubt, 40mm seems to be the magical most versatile low trail
number to go for. And all caveats about getting used to what you ride apply.

Also, the difference in handling between 30 and 40mm of trail is much less
than the difference between 40 and 55, according to Jan's articles.

René

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:29 AM, Garth  wrote:

>
>   While I see lots about low trail bikes with drop bars , I have not
> heard/seen much about riding on low trail bikes with long sloping top
> tubes(6+ degrees) and high bars(at least above the saddle height).
> Basically a much higher center of gravity than a drop bar bike.  A recent
> blug post GP mentioned something about this not being so desirable but did
> not elaborate.
>
>So basically I'm wondering how a Bombadil or Hunq would be with Alba
> type bars at least couple inches above the saddle would be ?
>
> I've considered another Bombadil or even a Hunq type frame but I need more
> front foot-tire/fender clearance than either stock bike offers in 60+cm.
> frames.  I could do this by either going to a low trail design and/or 650b
> wheels but I have no idea how it would ride.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[tdusky]

I started doing randonneuring a few yew years ago. And had a bike built by 
John Fitzgerald for that purpose.
Low trail, lights and fenders wide tires etc… My current bikes are a 2001 
Rivendell custom Long Low, an Atlantis, and a "72 Paramount P13.
The low trail geometry is amazing with or without a front load, it rides so 
stable and feels totally correct. See my frame and 
bike http://www.fitzcyclez.com/frames.html (that's me with my"Juice")
I hate riding my other bikes and I need to sell them. I am a steel, leather 
wool guy all the way and find most of GP's way to be good. But why does he 
build these mid trail bikes? Makes me wonder.
BTW my 63cm Long Low dark red custom Rivendell Joe Stark build and my 64cm 
Atlantis are for sale. So get a low trail and you can go N-2 :)
Tom Dusky
Detroit Randonneurs

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 6:24:31 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
> loads up front.
>
> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>
> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame, 
> carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What 
> did you think of each?
>
>
> Reed
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Ron Mc]

Borrowed a quote from Jim Merz - Just like an arrow, the weight goes up 
front.  

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Garth]

  While I see lots about low trail bikes with drop bars , I have not 
heard/seen much about riding on low trail bikes with long sloping top 
tubes(6+ degrees) and high bars(at least above the saddle height).  
Basically a much higher center of gravity than a drop bar bike.  A recent 
blug post GP mentioned something about this not being so desirable but did 
not elaborate.  

   So basically I'm wondering how a Bombadil or Hunq would be with Alba 
type bars at least couple inches above the saddle would be ?  

I've considered another Bombadil or even a Hunq type frame but I need more 
front foot-tire/fender clearance than either stock bike offers in 60+cm. 
frames.  I could do this by either going to a low trail design and/or 650b 
wheels but I have no idea how it would ride. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[jeffrey kane]

Reed -- there has been a near endless run of low vs not-low discussions 
here and on the iBob and the 650b list. I feel like I've read them all and 
agonized over the damn concept myself for years. But I've never seen a more 
sensible and succinct assessment of the whole thing than these quickly 
punched out 9 posts above. Bill L nailed it one way, Evan B pretty much 
said what GP himself has been saying forever, which, is you can probably 
get used to anything given some time and Steve P knows his stuff and has 
real experience with some pretty darn nice bikes.

Me, I've got only this to add: having bounced through 5 similar yet 
different 650b rides in the last six years (2 typical trail Rivs, a V/O low 
trail and now 2 Jeff Lyon even lower trail bikes) I'd say that there can be 
some unpredictable bike-to-bike variations in performance that don't just 
fall in line with the "spread sheet" of expectations. Why? I have no idea 
but I have a Saluki that does not play well front loaded and Bleriot that 
does (yet, supposedly they are super close in geo). The V/O worked nicely 
but didn't incite much passion, The 2 Lyon's: one with drops and the other 
with uprights exhibit somewhat different tendencies, which, I suppose, 
speaks to the bar choice and riding position. 

I ended up on flexy front loading low-trail rides though ... and I don't 
see myself going back. Maybe I'll go in another direction altogether but 
for now, I couldn't be happier.



On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 6:24:31 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
> loads up front.
>
> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>
> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame, 
> carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What 
> did you think of each?
>
>
> Reed
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

Isn't that the truth Bill! Thanks for the advice. I think I'll finally sell
that Madone and aim to train for and do my first brevet on the Hunqapillar.
Then, if I like it, I'll start scheming around a low trail bike for brevets.

Plus, that'll give me some good time to dream about what my
ideal randonneuring bike would be like!


Best,
Reed

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Everything is best served with another bike.  N+1.  Always N+1.  The
> correct question to ask yourself is NOT : "Do I need another bike?"  The
> correct question is : "What should my next bike be?"  :-)
>
> If I had the choice of doing a brevet on a drop-bar Hunqapillar that I
> bought for myself and set up to my liking, or a hand-me-down Madone, I
> would almost certainly choose to do the brevet on the Hunqapillar.
>
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 4:01:30 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> Thanks very much for the thoughts, Bill! You described exactly the sort
>> of experience I was hoping to hear about.
>>
>> I'm currently considering training for a couple brevets. I've never done
>> one, and it both seems like an interesting challenge and a good training
>> goal. At the moment the two most appropriate (or perhaps I should say least
>> inappropriate) bikes I own for such a thing are a drop bar'd Hunqapillar
>> and an old 2004 Madone race bike that was given to me and then ignored. I'm
>> concerned that the Hunq is overbuilt for randonneuring and that the Madone
>> would simply be unpleasant. But then, I'm also concerned I'm just looking
>> for an excuse to buy another bike!
>>
>> Do you feel randonneuring benefits hugely from a purpose-built bike, or
>> should I just go for it with what I have?
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Reed
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> Reed asked:
>>>
>>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid
>>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of
>>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>>
>>> Yes I do.  I think both are fine.  Some people feel like it's a night
>>> and day kind of difference, and I don't feel that way.  My two low-trail
>>> bikes are both Rawlands.  I have their road model, the Nordavinden, and
>>> their 650b rando model, the Stag.  My Stag is still my primary brevet bike
>>> and it's terrific.  I did a lot of brevets on a 650B A Homer Hilsen before
>>> that and it was great, too, but I felt it was somewhat overbuilt for that
>>> brevet-only use.  Let me know if you want to check out my Nordavinden (it's
>>> a 58-59 Large).  I used that as a platform to just explore the concepts,
>>> and I feel like I've learned what I needed to learn.  Most recently I had
>>> braze-on centerpulls attached to see what the fuss was about.  I'm now
>>> moving my road bike exploration towards contemporary gravel bike concepts.
>>>
>>> I'm a big fan of front loading in general.  I put stuff in saddle bags
>>> only as a last resort.  I think front loading works great for me on high
>>> trail and low trail.  In my experience a low trail bike unloaded is still
>>> fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:

 I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of
 their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently
 I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts
 on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole
 alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be
 characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying
 loads up front.

 I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.

 Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid
 frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of
 bike? What did you think of each?


 Reed

>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Evan Baird]

I've been riding back to back rake comparisons for the last 2 years, and 
the conclusion I've come to is you'll probably get used to whatever you 
ride the most. IF you always carry stuff on your bike, and IF you prefer to 
keep it within reach, and IF you need to take your hands off the bars often 
then go for it. That said, I ride my Stag without a handlebar bag and it's 
fine. I ride the high trail bike with a handlebar bag and pannier and it's 
fine. I can ride them both no hands. It is a bit easier with the low trail, 
but there are so many variables that you'd need a ven diagram to quantify 
it all. The one thing that I feel pretty confident about is that I prefer 
the slacker head tube for dirt, regardless of the trail. I can't justify 
that with any data though.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Bill Lindsay]

Everything is best served with another bike.  N+1.  Always N+1.  The 
correct question to ask yourself is NOT : "Do I need another bike?"  The 
correct question is : "What should my next bike be?"  :-)

If I had the choice of doing a brevet on a drop-bar Hunqapillar that I 
bought for myself and set up to my liking, or a hand-me-down Madone, I 
would almost certainly choose to do the brevet on the Hunqapillar.  

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 4:01:30 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> Thanks very much for the thoughts, Bill! You described exactly the sort of 
> experience I was hoping to hear about. 
>
> I'm currently considering training for a couple brevets. I've never done 
> one, and it both seems like an interesting challenge and a good training 
> goal. At the moment the two most appropriate (or perhaps I should say least 
> inappropriate) bikes I own for such a thing are a drop bar'd Hunqapillar 
> and an old 2004 Madone race bike that was given to me and then ignored. I'm 
> concerned that the Hunq is overbuilt for randonneuring and that the Madone 
> would simply be unpleasant. But then, I'm also concerned I'm just looking 
> for an excuse to buy another bike!
>
> Do you feel randonneuring benefits hugely from a purpose-built bike, or 
> should I just go for it with what I have?
>
>
> Best,
> Reed
>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> Reed asked:
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid 
>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of 
>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>
>> Yes I do.  I think both are fine.  Some people feel like it's a night and 
>> day kind of difference, and I don't feel that way.  My two low-trail bikes 
>> are both Rawlands.  I have their road model, the Nordavinden, and their 
>> 650b rando model, the Stag.  My Stag is still my primary brevet bike and 
>> it's terrific.  I did a lot of brevets on a 650B A Homer Hilsen before that 
>> and it was great, too, but I felt it was somewhat overbuilt for that 
>> brevet-only use.  Let me know if you want to check out my Nordavinden (it's 
>> a 58-59 Large).  I used that as a platform to just explore the concepts, 
>> and I feel like I've learned what I needed to learn.  Most recently I had 
>> braze-on centerpulls attached to see what the fuss was about.  I'm now 
>> moving my road bike exploration towards contemporary gravel bike concepts.  
>>
>> I'm a big fan of front loading in general.  I put stuff in saddle bags 
>> only as a last resort.  I think front loading works great for me on high 
>> trail and low trail.  In my experience a low trail bike unloaded is still 
>> fine.  
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
>>> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
>>> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
>>> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
>>> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
>>> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
>>> loads up front.
>>>
>>> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>>>
>>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid 
>>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of 
>>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>>
>>>
>>> Reed
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

Thanks very much for the thoughts, Bill! You described exactly the sort of
experience I was hoping to hear about.

I'm currently considering training for a couple brevets. I've never done
one, and it both seems like an interesting challenge and a good training
goal. At the moment the two most appropriate (or perhaps I should say least
inappropriate) bikes I own for such a thing are a drop bar'd Hunqapillar
and an old 2004 Madone race bike that was given to me and then ignored. I'm
concerned that the Hunq is overbuilt for randonneuring and that the Madone
would simply be unpleasant. But then, I'm also concerned I'm just looking
for an excuse to buy another bike!

Do you feel randonneuring benefits hugely from a purpose-built bike, or
should I just go for it with what I have?


Best,
Reed

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Reed asked:
>
> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame,
> carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What
> did you think of each?
>
> Yes I do.  I think both are fine.  Some people feel like it's a night and
> day kind of difference, and I don't feel that way.  My two low-trail bikes
> are both Rawlands.  I have their road model, the Nordavinden, and their
> 650b rando model, the Stag.  My Stag is still my primary brevet bike and
> it's terrific.  I did a lot of brevets on a 650B A Homer Hilsen before that
> and it was great, too, but I felt it was somewhat overbuilt for that
> brevet-only use.  Let me know if you want to check out my Nordavinden (it's
> a 58-59 Large).  I used that as a platform to just explore the concepts,
> and I feel like I've learned what I needed to learn.  Most recently I had
> braze-on centerpulls attached to see what the fuss was about.  I'm now
> moving my road bike exploration towards contemporary gravel bike concepts.
>
> I'm a big fan of front loading in general.  I put stuff in saddle bags
> only as a last resort.  I think front loading works great for me on high
> trail and low trail.  In my experience a low trail bike unloaded is still
> fine.
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of
>> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently
>> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts
>> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole
>> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be
>> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying
>> loads up front.
>>
>> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid
>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of
>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>
>>
>> Reed
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Bill Lindsay]

Reed asked:

Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame, 
carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What 
did you think of each?

Yes I do.  I think both are fine.  Some people feel like it's a night and 
day kind of difference, and I don't feel that way.  My two low-trail bikes 
are both Rawlands.  I have their road model, the Nordavinden, and their 
650b rando model, the Stag.  My Stag is still my primary brevet bike and 
it's terrific.  I did a lot of brevets on a 650B A Homer Hilsen before that 
and it was great, too, but I felt it was somewhat overbuilt for that 
brevet-only use.  Let me know if you want to check out my Nordavinden (it's 
a 58-59 Large).  I used that as a platform to just explore the concepts, 
and I feel like I've learned what I needed to learn.  Most recently I had 
braze-on centerpulls attached to see what the fuss was about.  I'm now 
moving my road bike exploration towards contemporary gravel bike concepts.  

I'm a big fan of front loading in general.  I put stuff in saddle bags only 
as a last resort.  I think front loading works great for me on high trail 
and low trail.  In my experience a low trail bike unloaded is still fine.  


On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying 
> loads up front.
>
> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 
>
> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame, 
> carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What 
> did you think of each?
>
>
> Reed
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.