subject:"Re\: \[RBW\] Re\: Can we talk about long wheelbases\?"

I agree with all of this. Stays can be too short. I was just wondering at what 
point they become too long. 

I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various other 
touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, I prefer shorter stays. 
Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to feel boat-y to me, I 
don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no benefit beyond that 
length. In medium frames, for all around use, 440-450 feels perfect. To me. 
Maybe it’s simply what I am used to. In any case, riding frames with longer 
stays didn’t change my mind.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

me
I agree. I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various 
other touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, I prefer shorter 
stays. Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to feel boat-y to me, 
I don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no benefit beyond that 
length. In medium frames, for all around use, 440-450 feels perfect. To me. 
Maybe it’s simply what I am used to. In any case, riding frames with longer 
stays didn’t change my mind.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

I agree. I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various 
other touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, not touring, etc, I 
prefer shorter stays. Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to 
feel boat-y to me, I don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no 
benefit beyond that length. In medium frames, for all around use, 440-450 feels 
perfect. To me. Maybe it’s simply what I am used to. In any case, riding frames 
with longer stays didn’t change my mind. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Mark Roland

Again, why do you believe this? Why do you pick 46.5? I ask because I find 
it puzzling that these kinds of statements get made but with no explanation 
as to why, not even anecdotal experiences. I of course have no problem if 
you only want to ride bikes with ,46.5 chainstays (a couple of my vintage 
mt. bikes would not make the cut), but in a discussion about long 
chainstays on a site devoted to a designer who champions this design 
element, and has written extensively as to why, it would be good to get 
your input other than because you believe or think something.

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:40:12 PM UTC-5, Jason Fuller wrote:
>
> W i also believe that this happy middle ground does not mean 50cm+ 
> chainstays, unless you're tall. For someone my size (5'9"), I think 
> anything over about 465mm would be past the point of equilibrium for an 
> "all rounder" bike, though that number is dependent on a lot of factors and 
> I only understand a fraction of them. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Mark Roland

You're "not a fan" because why? Which extra long bikes do you have 
experience with? What was wrong with the handling (not being able to pop 
wheelies notwithstanding)? Just curious.


On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 3:06:26 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>
> Fair enough. That still leaves the handling of extra long bikes, of which 
> I am not a fan for general use — obviously cargo bikes need to be extra 
> long — but a lot of other people seem to like it, or at least aren’t 
> bothered by it, so there we are. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Jason Fuller

While the longer stays do create a longer moment arm, they also facilitate 
better load sharing between front and rear wheels so that's bound to help, 
as well as the flex characteristics of the frame could distribute the 
stresses better - nothing we can prove without a good FEA model, but fun to 
postulate. 

My position is this:  most people believe they want shorter chainstays than 
they actually want. there is a longstanding believe that the shorter the 
chainstays, the faster and more fun the bike will feel. But the feeling of 
being properly centered between the wheels, and a moderately longer 
wheelbase, is actually a better combination of fun, comfort, safety, and 
speed for most riders.  i also believe that this happy middle ground does 
not mean 50cm+ chainstays, unless you're tall. For someone my size (5'9"), 
I think anything over about 465mm would be past the point of equilibrium 
for an "all rounder" bike, though that number is dependent on a lot of 
factors and I only understand a fraction of them. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Fair enough. That still leaves the handling of extra long bikes, of which I am 
not a fan for general use — obviously cargo bikes need to be extra long — but a 
lot of other people seem to like it, or at least aren’t bothered by it, so 
there we are. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-30 Thread S

I don't need convincing -- I already have two Rivendells, albeit older 
models with shorter chain stays. I know, too, that of course you can 
calculate the stresses, but the raw numbers tell only part of the story. 
Certainly, we know that frames such as the Gus Boots are more than strong 
enough, because they have passed the toughest mountain bike frame tests. 
What I am curious about has more to do with things such as drive train 
efficiency, rider feel, and frame longevity, all of which can be hard to 
measure, at least initially. I recognize there isn't going to be a pat 
answer that someone here can give. I was just thinking out loud, wondering 
where the practical limits lie, at what point performance starts to be 
compromised, when the drawbacks begin to outweigh the benefits. 

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 5:43:25 PM UTC-8, James Valiensi wrote:
>
> For the Engineer - the bike frame is a simple truss - one can calculate 
> the defection. 
> But don’t waste you time over thinking a Rivendell - just ride one and 
> you’ll be sold.
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 5:21 PM, S > wrote:
>
> From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super 
> long chain stays. I don't believe super short stays deliver significantly 
> better acceleration, but I wonder if super long stays might rob energy from 
> the drive train, "flubbing out" your pedal strokes. Also, some of the 
> highest stresses in a frame are in the BB area, specifically in the area 
> where the right chainstay enters the BB. By lengthening the stay, you are 
> in effect creating a longer lever and potentially increasing the stress, 
> more so over rough ground where the rider is bouncing up and down on the 
> bike.   
>
> On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-8, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
>> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
>> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up 
>> in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. 
>> People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a 
>> dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
>>
>> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know 
>> this since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the 
>> color of paint that it has. ) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve 
>> known and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
>> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
>>
>> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on 
>> Reddit. It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most 
>> pressing questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and 
>> over again long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his 
>> opinion. Longer bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The 
>> opposite of twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us 
>> will accept it. 
>>
>> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is 
>> no longer an improvement? 
>>
>> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
>> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
>> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant 
>> - longer was better. 
>>
>> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its 
>> geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was 
>> surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long 
>> wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve 
>> been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have 
>> been lengthened as of late. 
>>
>> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes 
>> are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the 
>> theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they 
>> were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something 
>> to say... 
>>
>> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
>> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
>> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
>> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
>> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you 
>> to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
>> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
>> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
>> the next size down. 
>>
>> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, 
>> Friends. It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-30 Thread James Valiensi

For the Engineer - the bike frame is a simple truss - one can calculate the 
defection. 
But don’t waste you time over thinking a Rivendell - just ride one and you’ll 
be sold.

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 5:21 PM, S  wrote:
> 
> From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super long 
> chain stays. I don't believe super short stays deliver significantly better 
> acceleration, but I wonder if super long stays might rob energy from the 
> drive train, "flubbing out" your pedal strokes. Also, some of the highest 
> stresses in a frame are in the BB area, specifically in the area where the 
> right chainstay enters the BB. By lengthening the stay, you are in effect 
> creating a longer lever and potentially increasing the stress, more so over 
> rough ground where the rider is bouncing up and down on the bike.   
> 
> On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-8, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up in 
> several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. People are 
> wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a dealer, we need 
> to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
> 
> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this 
> since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color 
> of paint that it has. ) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known and 
> loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
> 
> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. It 
> was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing questions 
> and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again long 
> wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer bikes 
> are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of twitchy, 
> short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it. 
> 
> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no 
> longer an improvement? 
> 
> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant - 
> longer was better. 
> 
> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its geometry 
> changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was surprised when I 
> had to buy (several) different stems and a new long wheelbase bar for my 
> Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve been frustrated. If I 
> understand correctly, several Rivendell models have been lengthened as of 
> late. 
> 
> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes are 
> better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the theory, 
> what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they were 
> already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something to 
> say... 
> 
> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you to 
> park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
> the next size down. 
> 
> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. It 
> would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of 
> inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and informative 
> chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, maybe Rivendell 
> will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting expectations, 
> maybe there will be changes to future bikes. 
> 
> I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket on 
> the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship! 
> Leah 
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Leah Peterson

Yankeebird,

I reread your post and it’s uncanny. My exact situation. I wondered if I was 
being too extreme in wanting to be quite upright, but you want the same thing, 
and that’s good news to me. Even better news is that we can now accomplish it. 
If you don’t like the stem Mark found for you, there is yet another option on 
The Stem Chronicles thread. 

Garth found us this: 
https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.somafabshop.com%2Fshop%2Fproduct%2Fnitto-stem-technomic-quill-280mm-xl-25-4mm-4096%3Fcategory%3D817=D=1=AFQjCNH8cGAwC8gyfdiOxsbmQqbWoXy0ow

Rivendell can get it for you from Soma. I got one ordered yesterday. Will 
didn’t know the stem existed and was really surprised to see this link. 

Let us know what you do and how it turns out - I am planning for a new Cheviot 
this spring and then I will have the same pair of bikes as you do - and 
probably set up very similarly. Your desires for your bike setups mirror mine 
to the point it is, as I said, uncanny. 

Sent from my iPad

>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 2:40 AM, Yankeebird  wrote:
> Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying 
> around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end settled 
> on a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 
> 2cm too far forward, and it's maxed out. 
> 
> Please refer to my Jan15th post in this thread for the larger back story. 
> Apologies for brevity, I'm a bit tight on time this morning!
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Yankeebird

So that's the 8cm DD but 2cm taller... That should fix this perfect! Nice! 

All my quills on the Clem have been put to minimum insert, both for height and 
to reduce the effective reach. Again this is not a problem on my Cheviot, which 
is perfect with an 11cm "7" stem. The front end getting stretched forward has 
made an upright bike into a less than upright bike... For me, at least. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Mark Roland

https://www.modernbike.com/nitto-mt-10-long-quill-stem-25.4-35d-x-80-silver

I linked to this over on the Stem Chronicles thread. It's the same stem you 
have and find to be 2cm too short. Except this one is...2cm shorter. Also 
it should be remembered that because of the heat tube angle, as you raise 
it, the stem effectively becomes shorter. So the 8cm reach on this stem can 
have the same effective reach as a 50mm  "7" tallux that doesn't have as 
much overall height as the dirt drop (quill plus the upward angle of the dd 
itself).

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 5:40:37 AM UTC-5, Yankeebird wrote:... a 
10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 2cm 
too far forward, and it's maxed out. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Garth


Try reversing your Tallux or DD stems Yankeebird.  Let doubt doubt and do 
do. 


On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 5:40:37 AM UTC-5, Yankeebird wrote:
>
> Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying 
> around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end 
> settled on a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height 
> but about 2cm too far forward, and it's maxed out. 
>
> Please refer to my Jan15th post in this thread for the larger back story. 
> Apologies for brevity, I'm a bit tight on time this morning!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Yankeebird

Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying 
around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end settled on 
a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 2cm 
too far forward, and it's maxed out. 

Please refer to my Jan15th post in this thread for the larger back story. 
Apologies for brevity, I'm a bit tight on time this morning!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-24 Thread Leah Peterson

Sorry, Yankee, I misunderstood that. Let me try again: Did you try a 50 stem on 
a Clem L? What size frame? And how did it feel to you? A little too low? A 
lot???

I always thought I liked my bars higher and closer than most, but after some of 
the responses, I see I may be in good company...
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:52 AM, Yankeebird  wrote:
> 
> It would be too low with the 50 Tallux, I already tried that, I need the 
> height of the dirtdrops. Maybe that Soma stem being discussed in the other 
> thread is the way to go.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-24 Thread Leah Peterson

Yankeebird, how can you tell that the 50 Technomic/Tallux would be too low? I 
need to know these things!

Incidentally, I agree that it is (but only because I’ve ridden with it) and I 
did order the longer stem. Riv can get it, if anyone is interested.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:52 AM, Yankeebird  wrote:
> 
> It would be too low with the 50 Tallux, I already tried that, I need the 
> height of the dirtdrops. Maybe that Soma stem being discussed in the other 
> thread is the way to go.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-14 Thread lconley

I have kind of standardized on the Brooks B68. I have had little trouble 
buying NOS Brooks B68 saddles on eBay. I have 2 aged versions - brown with 
laces (already broken in out of the box - very comfortable), 1 B68S (black, 
shorter version with chromed rails and laces - going on the Wife's Betty) 
and 3 or 4 standard black models. The B68S came with multiple laces in 
several colors, so: red lace for the Betty, blue lace for the Frank Jones 
Sr., and green lace for the Bombadil. I have a leather punch, so others may 
get laces also.

I wanted a Honey B68 with chrome rails for my upcoming custom, but no go, 
so I got a black B68 frame from Italy on eBay, had it chromed locally, and 
sent it to Firth and Wilson - they installed a Honey B67 top (identical in 
shape to the B68) with large copper rivets. Took some time and additional 
money, but I love my Brooks B678Frankensaddle.

Laing

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 12:54:40 PM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:

> Leah, sadly it looks as though Brooks has discontinued the B68 & B72 
> saddles.
> B72 was my favorite, but somewhat awkward due to the double saddle rails 
> that required a conventional seat post for the special clamp or an adapter.
> The B68 had no springs, but like many conventional Brooks saddles did 
> require a fairly lengthy break in period.
> I think long term the B17 could work on the Clem L, but caution your 
> sister that Brooks saddles do require breaking in.
> I have a C19 on one bike and it initially feels OK, but everyone who's 
> ridden that bike any time at all says the more you ride it the more 
> uncomfortable it gets. A bit stiff! 
> In my experience with the C17  Allweathers the regular one was almost as 
> comfortable as my B17, but oddly the cut out version was less comfortable. 
> I am not sure if I want to gamble with the C19 Allweathers or not!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-14 Thread masmojo

Leah, sadly it looks as though Brooks has discontinued the B68 & B72 saddles.
B72 was my favorite, but somewhat awkward due to the double saddle rails that 
required a conventional seat post for the special clamp or an adapter.
The B68 had no springs, but like many conventional Brooks saddles did require a 
fairly lengthy break in period.
I think long term the B17 could work on the Clem L, but caution your sister 
that Brooks saddles do require breaking in.
I have a C19 on one bike and it initially feels OK, but everyone who's ridden 
that bike any time at all says the more you ride it the more uncomfortable it 
gets. A bit stiff! 
In my experience with the C17  Allweathers the regular one was almost as 
comfortable as my B17, but oddly the cut out version was less comfortable. I am 
not sure if I want to gamble with the C19 Allweathers or not!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-14 Thread Mark Roland



[image: CalvinStopThinking.jpg]


On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 11:23:13 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Loaded, indeed! Nice work. 
>
> My sis is visiting and we rode Clems last night and today. She took my 
> Clementine and then a few miles later, we switched. 
>
> “THIS BIKE IS WEIRD!!!” she shrieked. 
>
> “That’s your same exact bike,” I said flatly. “Yours is green. Mine is 
> blue. Same bike!” 
>
> Now, she had been riding [stealing] her husband’s Clem L 59 (previous 
> geometry) and did not receive her ‘19 Clem L until September, which meant 
> nearly no time to get acquainted before the snow came. So, she doesn’t know 
> it yet. I told her about this thread and asked her to contribute what she 
> noticed and all she could come up with is “The Clementine is just EASY.” 
>
> So there’s your profound assessment. She’s worse than me and now I have 
> documentation. She did say the blue Clem was good after she got used to it 
> but also helpfully pointed out my inferior B17 saddle. Like this: 
>
> “I hate your saddle! I don’t have this saddle, do I? This better not be my 
> saddle! Because it’s awful. Which one do I have again? Not this one I 
> hope.” 
>
> And so on and so forth. 
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 
>
> > On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:01 AM, masmojo > 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > Loaded  
> > 
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA 
> > 
> > -- 
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>  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-13 Thread Joe Bernard

She is SO your sister, Leah 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-13 Thread Leah Peterson

Loaded, indeed! Nice work.

My sis is visiting and we rode Clems last night and today. She took my 
Clementine and then a few miles later, we switched. 

“THIS BIKE IS WEIRD!!!” she shrieked. 

“That’s your same exact bike,” I said flatly. “Yours is green. Mine is blue. 
Same bike!”

Now, she had been riding [stealing] her husband’s Clem L 59 (previous geometry) 
and did not receive her ‘19 Clem L until September, which meant nearly no time 
to get acquainted before the snow came. So, she doesn’t know it yet. I told her 
about this thread and asked her to contribute what she noticed and all she 
could come up with is “The Clementine is just EASY.” 

So there’s your profound assessment. She’s worse than me and now I have 
documentation. She did say the blue Clem was good after she got used to it but 
also helpfully pointed out my inferior B17 saddle. Like this: 

“I hate your saddle! I don’t have this saddle, do I? This better not be my 
saddle! Because it’s awful. Which one do I have again? Not this one I hope.”

And so on and so forth.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:01 AM, masmojo  wrote:
> 
> Loaded 
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread Patrick Moore

John: FWIW, I have very often carried 30 lb and more -- record, weighed,
was 45 lb -- in rear panniers on light steel frames with stiff racks; racks
including either the wonderfully stiff but only 11 oz Tubus Fly, or my
various Chauncey Matthews customs. Not for long distances; =/< 10 miles;
but securely and without intolerable frame flex drama. In fact, the best
rear load carrier I've owned was a quite-light, *tout-531,* early '70s road
bike with standard gauge tubing; it was on this one that I grunted 45 lb up
a steep hill at cadences as low as 4 mph/20 rpm;(recall the "4" flickering
on my computer); other bikes, including the Roads and the Ram, with stiffer
tubing, haven't handled rear loads over 30 lb as well.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 3:33 PM John Phillips  wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
>  I'm sorry, I meant *how* do you like to carry your 30 lbs of
> groceries when you're riding your Quickbeam? Do you distribute the weight?
> Load it on a rack, in panniers, in a backpack, or? Just curious about how
> you end up handling that much weight on your Quickbeam?
>
> John
>
> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 2:22:13 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done
>> it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but
>> I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>>>
>>> Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike
 (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of
 having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the
 question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a
 delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph
 headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery,
 discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free up
 the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish
 straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only
 anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd taken
 the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing.
 Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier
 it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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> .
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---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-11 Thread Mark Roland

I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think "getting bars up higher" 
is/was the only reason Rivendell leans in the direction of a bigger frame. 
>From my experience, riding bicycles that are the short side of "French 
Fit", most other factors being close to equal, there is more a feeling of 
being "in" the bike, vs. more "perched" on a bicycle with smaller overall 
frame dimensions for one's size. A sloped top tube in the Riv design both 
allows for a higher head tube point (less saddle to bar drop) and also for 
more top tube clearance (allowing a rider to be fit on a larger overall 
frame size). Although frankly, from what I can tell of others' attempts, 
parsing the Riv geo charts for fit is an arcane science/art form;^)


On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Yes, but I'm not explaining why it would still make sense if they say it, 
> I'm explaining that it's an old theory which doesn't hold up well anymore. 
> Even if they still say it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

I had a bronzey green Clem. If Leah thinks the blue shimmers like the sun is 
pouring throught it, wait til she sees THAT! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Mark Roland

Yes. In fact the business I work for makes color matching booths used by 
manufacturers to check color under various light qualities. The 
greeny-bronze is amazing in person. It can go from a classic three-speed 
green to a more bronzey green to that almost yellow lime green in the sun.

I'm glad you seem to be getting in sync with the 2019 version of the 
Clementine. Sunday is supposed to be rainy here, so maybe I'll do a little 
wheel building and some wrenching with my little guy. I would like to get 
mine on the road in the next month or so.

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Can you believe that brown Clem is same color as your green Clem? It’s 
> really a cool effect.
>
> As of right now, I’m pretty happy with my Clem. I went out again last 
> night, and after one final saddle adjustment, I think I’ve got my Clem 
> pretty well dialed. I had a very happy commute with my sons this morning, 
> and I am now deciding the bike is perfect. I am excited to know what the 
> new Cheviot is going to be like. Hopefully a little shorter and lighter. 
> Whatever it is, I’m sure we’ll be discussing it...
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 9, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Mark Roland  > wrote:
>
> 
> caution, rambling reply ahead, thoughts I've had that were triggered by 
> this thread. Don't Thread On Me.
>
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020  Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> *Mark Roland - you might be our best hope here. When your 2019 52 Clem L 
> is built, you’ll have it to compare to the 2015 OC. Also, what is taking so 
> long? How can you treat us this way? We need answers. MY CLOTHES ARE GOING 
> OUT OF STYLE OVER HERE MARK HURRY UP. *
>
> First of all, we know your clothes won't go out of style because we can 
> see your photos of you and Betz from what, 7 years ago? Perfectly stylish 
> as of 3 minutes ago. And while I appreciate the confidence, I don't think 
> my experience will directly translate to help you figure this out. And 
> sorry, but you are now a more experienced cyclist than 98.7 percent of all 
> U.S. citizens. More Americans probably know where Iran is on a map (about 
> 28 percent) than know where a chainstay is on a bicycle. At this point your 
> observations are completely valid and certainly as useful as mine--much 
> more so of course to your particulars. You've trusted them and they've 
> gotten you here, a good place to be! 
>
> Also, I'm not all that good at this bike vs. that bike, for several 
> reasons.
>
> The main one is, I've only ridden a few bikes that I just could not like, 
> or judge better or worse than the next. Part of this is having a feel for 
> what will work beforehand, but part of it is that I am more of the idea 
> that, as the software part of the equation, it's kinda our job, assuming 
> proportions not way out of the means, to fit the hardware.
>
> Yes, there are slack bikes, and tight bikes, heavier bikes, lighter, 
> planing bikes, bikes that track and bikes that twitch, bikes with long 
> stays and bikes with short stays, bikes with high trail and bikes with low. 
> But all these parameters are actually within a fairly narrow range as well, 
> and all add up to Bicycle. Sure, I notice differences among my bicycles, 
> even ones that are kinda close on paper. And as some have mentioned, I like 
> the one I am on best. But I'm genuinely happy on any of them, and I suspect 
> I'll be happy on my Clem L. Especially because it will look so pretty (I'm 
> very superficial about my bicycles.)
>
> I don't say all this in some kind of deep zen way, just as a fact about me 
> and bikes. I get that others are more particular, that's cool. As I said in 
> an earlier post on this thread, I did not have a problem with the handling 
> on my Big Dummy, which had 80+cm chainstays. I did park it in the hall 
> downstairs, as at the time i owned it, I was living in a 3-story walk-up 
> with the last flight being very very narrow and steep.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> Big Dummy with Original Clementine
>
> Grant is a bicycle designer. His job is to design bicycles. The designs go 
> in a certain direction based on his riding, his ideas of what bikes are and 
> what they can be, etc. He sells them to people who know about them. I am 
> sure he is just fine knowing that people ride non-Rivendell bicycles with 
> "short"  chainstays. Also, to make money, you need to have differentiation. 
> And as consumers, in product areas where we have more than a passing 
> interest, we like to have opinions, and preferences, and sometimes whole 
> philosophies regarding various stuff. I like mostly old bikes, rim brakes, 
> leather saddles, wide tires, steel.  (All of these things, by the way, kept 
> alive and actively promoted by Rivendell, even when it wasn't "cool.")
>
> As far as 54.5cm vs. 52cm chainstays. If there were no bicycles in the 
> world, and then suddenly everyone in the world was issued a Clem L that fit 
> them, and half got chainstays an inch

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Someone's been reading this thread 

https://www.rivbike.com/products/long-chain

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Yes, but I'm not explaining why it would still make sense if they say it, I'm 
explaining that it's an old theory which doesn't hold up well anymore. Even if 
they still say it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Mark Roland

Yes, but on the other hand, both Will and Grant steered me toward a 59 Clem 
L. I am 5'10 (or at least I was a while back). They did not insist and 
immediately dropped it when I described my preference, but that was the 
predisposition. I believe my proportions are similar to Grant's and he 
rides a 59 in both Clem and Cheviot. And I was slightly tempted, but due to 
apartment living, and not loving 700c wheels much above 40mm, I went with, 
and stuck with the 52.

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 4:03:18 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Who likes wrenches? I do, so I shall throw one in the conversation! Y'all 
> are correct that "get the biggest frame you can fit" was/is a Riv mantra 
> about getting your bars up high where they belong, but it originated during 
> the early days when Rivs still had mostly-level toptubes and sourcing tall 
> quill stems was still in its infancy. This was also a time when drops and 
> Moustache Bars were being spec'd on a lot of their frames. 
>
> Today all-but-Roadeo have upsloping TTs, crazy-tall headtubes and usually 
> show up at your door with a tall bar on a tall stem. I can ride a 52cm Clem 
> well enough, but my 45cm version with HiRiser stem and Boscos has all the 
> bar height I can stand. So there ya go. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Who likes wrenches? I do, so I shall throw one in the conversation! Y'all are 
correct that "get the biggest frame you can fit" was/is a Riv mantra about 
getting your bars up high where they belong, but it originated during the early 
days when Rivs still had mostly-level toptubes and sourcing tall quill stems 
was still in its infancy. This was also a time when drops and Moustache Bars 
were being spec'd on a lot of their frames. 

Today all-but-Roadeo have upsloping TTs, crazy-tall headtubes and usually show 
up at your door with a tall bar on a tall stem. I can ride a 52cm Clem well 
enough, but my 45cm version with HiRiser stem and Boscos has all the bar height 
I can stand. So there ya go. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Toshi Takeuchi

All Rivs that I have ridden have feel extremely nimble to shifts in weight
for steering. If you like bikes that are really sensitive to steering
input, then there is a huge variation in this sensitivity across Rivs. The
Roadeo is steers beautifully--not twitchy in the least. The steering
carves turns, almost like skiing carves turns downhill. My wife's Betty
Foy, on the other hand, is very insensitive to steering input (but again,
very sensitive to weight shifts). If I had coaster brakes (and single
speed or downtube shifters) on the Betty, then I am confident that I could
spin my front wheel in circles and stay upright without a problem. On the
other spectrum, I had a Marinoni road bike, and as you turn the handlebar,
the bike literally falls over, so it is very sensitive to steering and the
vigilance required made it tiring for long rides.

What does this have to do with chainstay length? Well, whether you like
longer chainstays or not may depend in part, on your turning technique.
The more you rely on steering as opposed to weight shifts, the more likely
you are to dislike the longer chainstays, because the bike will more stably
track in the direction the bike is moving with longer stays and you need
that weight shift to alter direction.

With that said, however, the longer stays feel just as nimble (to weight
shifts and turning) as the shorter ones and much more stable, so I can't be
happier than I am about it (with my style of turning).

People thought that longer stays would inhibit the ability to navigate on
mountain dirt switchbacks, but the legend says that Keven, who originally
advocated for these longer stays, could bomb down switchbacks faster than
anyone else could, and he could do it much more easily with the longer
stays...

Toshi

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread masmojo

I think part of my comment earlier about Leah (or anybody really) liking a bike 
if they have no point of reference,  stemmed not only from Leah's experience,  
but my own as well. I got way too many bikes and many times what happens is 
there are a good many that won't be ridden for several months. So I'll break 
out the pump, air up the tires and go for a ride!

Then depending on how similar that bike is to whatever I've been riding most 
recently, I'll either think "Wow, this is so great" OR " Wow, this feels weird"

But, 5 miles down the road invariably I'm thinking "this bike is so cool, why 
don't I ride it more?" Of course the answer is the newest bike gets all the 
saddle time.

So, Leah I'd advise not getting rid of your Clementine right away. Let the new 
bike settle into the quiver for several months, intentionally swap rides out 
and let "the new" wear off the new Clem. The one you end up keeping should be 
the one that over time becomes THE go to bike.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

Eric D., Paul C, and Shoji, thanks for answering my question. That makes me 
happy to have the 52!

Shoji, yes, I am really enjoying my new bike. I have all the right bags and 
racks and have you *looked* at my fenders? 朗 I will get the long wheelbase bar 
for my rack and all will be well. 

I’m really glad we all had this chat because if nothing else, it will guide 
folks toward the size that aligns with how they like their bikes to feel. If 
you like a shorter bike, size down. Or you can trust Rivendell and order 
according to their website, which will likely direct you to size up. 
Conversations like these are invaluable, since most of us cannot test ride a 
Rivendell. And we were nice! There ought not to be any feelings that were 
casualties of this thread. You are all the best.

Thanks so much, Friends.
Leah 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Shoji Takahashi

Hi BBDD,
Happy New Year! And thanks to you and RBW contributors for this thread.

Riv recommends larger size to enable handlebars to-be set in a higher 
position relative to the saddle. (Larger frames have longer head tubes, 
which means the stem is necessarily higher. Extra-long stems might not look 
so great and are could be easier to break.)

Sounds like you're adjusting to the different Clems and they ride well for 
you (albeit slight ride differences)?

Tailwinds, 
Shoji



On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Thanks for this! I do think your confidence is a little misplaced in me as 
> that Velouria character is really someone at whom to  marvel (I wanted to 
> say ‘marvel at’ but I think it’s poor form to end a sentence in a 
> preposition). I know only enough to be dangerous, which is why I go out to 
> the garage with hex keys and leave things worse than before I came. At any 
> rate, I know a good deal more than nothing, and that I owe largely to the 
> good people of the List, as you have all shared inexhaustible wealths of 
> information with me and with great patience and goodwill. ❤️
>
> One question: Why does Rivendell like us to ride the biggest size of bike 
> we can fit? I have no opinion one way or the other and am likely to take 
> their recommendation; I just want to know why. 
>
> I have never seen the chameleon green Clem in the sunlight, and now that 
> I’ve seen yours, I love it. My sister has your bike, and I got my first 
> look at it over Christmas break.  The weather was snowy and overcast and 
> that pretty green paint looked brown in her garage. See below, which is a 
> photo I took to spoof Instagram that it was New Bike Day for me (Clem #5!). 
> Given my proclivity for Clems, I’m sure most people fell for it. Can you 
> believe that brown Clem is same color as your green Clem? It’s really a 
> cool effect.
>
> As of right now, I’m pretty happy with my Clem. I went out again last 
> night, and after one final saddle adjustment, I think I’ve got my Clem 
> pretty well dialed. I had a very happy commute with my sons this morning, 
> and I am now deciding the bike is perfect. I am excited to know what the 
> new Cheviot is going to be like. Hopefully a little shorter and lighter. 
> Whatever it is, I’m sure we’ll be discussing it...
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 9, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Mark Roland  > wrote:
>
> 
> caution, rambling reply ahead, thoughts I've had that were triggered by 
> this thread. Don't Thread On Me.
>
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020  Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> *Mark Roland - you might be our best hope here. When your 2019 52 Clem L 
> is built, you’ll have it to compare to the 2015 OC. Also, what is taking so 
> long? How can you treat us this way? We need answers. MY CLOTHES ARE GOING 
> OUT OF STYLE OVER HERE MARK HURRY UP. *
>
> First of all, we know your clothes won't go out of style because we can 
> see your photos of you and Betz from what, 7 years ago? Perfectly stylish 
> as of 3 minutes ago. And while I appreciate the confidence, I don't think 
> my experience will directly translate to help you figure this out. And 
> sorry, but you are now a more experienced cyclist than 98.7 percent of all 
> U.S. citizens. More Americans probably know where Iran is on a map (about 
> 28 percent) than know where a chainstay is on a bicycle. At this point your 
> observations are completely valid and certainly as useful as mine--much 
> more so of course to your particulars. You've trusted them and they've 
> gotten you here, a good place to be! 
>
> Also, I'm not all that good at this bike vs. that bike, for several 
> reasons.
>
> The main one is, I've only ridden a few bikes that I just could not like, 
> or judge better or worse than the next. Part of this is having a feel for 
> what will work beforehand, but part of it is that I am more of the idea 
> that, as the software part of the equation, it's kinda our job, assuming 
> proportions not way out of the means, to fit the hardware.
>
> Yes, there are slack bikes, and tight bikes, heavier bikes, lighter, 
> planing bikes, bikes that track and bikes that twitch, bikes with long 
> stays and bikes with short stays, bikes with high trail and bikes with low. 
> But all these parameters are actually within a fairly narrow range as well, 
> and all add up to Bicycle. Sure, I notice differences among my bicycles, 
> even ones that are kinda close on paper. And as some have mentioned, I like 
> the one I am on best. But I'm genuinely happy on any of them, and I suspect 
> I'll be happy on my Clem L. Especially because it will look so pretty (I'm 
> very superficial about my bicycles.)
>
> I don't say all this in some kind of deep zen way, just as a fact about me 
> and bikes. I get that others are more particular, that's cool. As I said in 
> an earlier post on this thread, I did not have a problem with the handling 
> on my Big Dummy, which had 80+cm

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Paul Clifton

I think Riv recommends the largest size you'll fit because it can make it 
easier to get the bars high, relative to the saddle. Basically, on a bigger 
bike, your saddle is lower relative to the head tube, so the bars start out 
relatively higher than on a smaller bike where your saddle would be higher 
up and the head tube would be shorter.

Paul

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 1:39:05 PM UTC-6, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Thanks for this! I do think your confidence is a little misplaced in me as 
> that Velouria character is really someone at whom to  marvel (I wanted to 
> say ‘marvel at’ but I think it’s poor form to end a sentence in a 
> preposition). I know only enough to be dangerous, which is why I go out to 
> the garage with hex keys and leave things worse than before I came. At any 
> rate, I know a good deal more than nothing, and that I owe largely to the 
> good people of the List, as you have all shared inexhaustible wealths of 
> information with me and with great patience and goodwill. ❤️
>
> One question: Why does Rivendell like us to ride the biggest size of bike 
> we can fit? I have no opinion one way or the other and am likely to take 
> their recommendation; I just want to know why. 
>
> I have never seen the chameleon green Clem in the sunlight, and now that 
> I’ve seen yours, I love it. My sister has your bike, and I got my first 
> look at it over Christmas break.  The weather was snowy and overcast and 
> that pretty green paint looked brown in her garage. See below, which is a 
> photo I took to spoof Instagram that it was New Bike Day for me (Clem #5!). 
> Given my proclivity for Clems, I’m sure most people fell for it. Can you 
> believe that brown Clem is same color as your green Clem? It’s really a 
> cool effect.
>
> As of right now, I’m pretty happy with my Clem. I went out again last 
> night, and after one final saddle adjustment, I think I’ve got my Clem 
> pretty well dialed. I had a very happy commute with my sons this morning, 
> and I am now deciding the bike is perfect. I am excited to know what the 
> new Cheviot is going to be like. Hopefully a little shorter and lighter. 
> Whatever it is, I’m sure we’ll be discussing it...
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 9, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Mark Roland  > wrote:
>
> 
> caution, rambling reply ahead, thoughts I've had that were triggered by 
> this thread. Don't Thread On Me.
>
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020  Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> *Mark Roland - you might be our best hope here. When your 2019 52 Clem L 
> is built, you’ll have it to compare to the 2015 OC. Also, what is taking so 
> long? How can you treat us this way? We need answers. MY CLOTHES ARE GOING 
> OUT OF STYLE OVER HERE MARK HURRY UP. *
>
> First of all, we know your clothes won't go out of style because we can 
> see your photos of you and Betz from what, 7 years ago? Perfectly stylish 
> as of 3 minutes ago. And while I appreciate the confidence, I don't think 
> my experience will directly translate to help you figure this out. And 
> sorry, but you are now a more experienced cyclist than 98.7 percent of all 
> U.S. citizens. More Americans probably know where Iran is on a map (about 
> 28 percent) than know where a chainstay is on a bicycle. At this point your 
> observations are completely valid and certainly as useful as mine--much 
> more so of course to your particulars. You've trusted them and they've 
> gotten you here, a good place to be! 
>
> Also, I'm not all that good at this bike vs. that bike, for several 
> reasons.
>
> The main one is, I've only ridden a few bikes that I just could not like, 
> or judge better or worse than the next. Part of this is having a feel for 
> what will work beforehand, but part of it is that I am more of the idea 
> that, as the software part of the equation, it's kinda our job, assuming 
> proportions not way out of the means, to fit the hardware.
>
> Yes, there are slack bikes, and tight bikes, heavier bikes, lighter, 
> planing bikes, bikes that track and bikes that twitch, bikes with long 
> stays and bikes with short stays, bikes with high trail and bikes with low. 
> But all these parameters are actually within a fairly narrow range as well, 
> and all add up to Bicycle. Sure, I notice differences among my bicycles, 
> even ones that are kinda close on paper. And as some have mentioned, I like 
> the one I am on best. But I'm genuinely happy on any of them, and I suspect 
> I'll be happy on my Clem L. Especially because it will look so pretty (I'm 
> very superficial about my bicycles.)
>
> I don't say all this in some kind of deep zen way, just as a fact about me 
> and bikes. I get that others are more particular, that's cool. As I said in 
> an earlier post on this thread, I did not have a problem with the handling 
> on my Big Dummy, which had 80+cm chainstays. I did park it in the hall 
> downstairs, as at the time i owned it, I was living in a 3-story walk-up 
> with the last

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Leah Peterson

Yes, Bill, I agree there is something to the feeling of whatever you rode last 
was “right.” You’re also right that it’s nice to let your bikes serve purposes 
instead of making them all alike. You would not believe how hard it was (is?) 
to get this through my skull.

I am paring down to be Two-Bike-Leah and just need to know which bikes to sell. 
I was planning on getting the new model Cheviot and selling the Clementine and 
the Betz, but I need to see how looonnnggg the new Chev will be. If it’s too 
Clem-like, I may not purchase one. But I do love a Rivendell mixte. Especially 
if I can get RED.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 9, 2020, at 3:43 PM, Bill Schairer  wrote:
> 
> Leah,
> I rotate riding between about 4 bikes on a fairly regular basis.  They all 
> feel a bit different.  The last one I’ve been riding on a regular basis is 
> usually the one I think I like best when I switch to another until the next 
> one becomes the most regular at which point it becomes my favorite.
> 
> Interesting, to me anyways, my 1982 Trek 720 has a longer wheelbase than my 
> 2014? Atlantis.  Longer wheelbases aren’t necessarily a new thing I guess.  I 
> think they both may feel “swoopy” compared to my others but it is not a 
> feeling I particularly like.  Without a doubt, of the 4 bikes, it is the one 
> with the shortest wheelbase that feels the most rock solid.  The bike just 
> seems to know where I want to go and there it goes without effort so, I think 
> there is a whole lot more going on than wheelbase when it comes to these 
> things.  It was this discussion that got me out measuring.  It has never 
> actually been something I paid a whole lot of attention to.
> 
> I have also come to realize that which tires I’m riding can have a rather 
> dramatic effect on the handling.  I have noticed this the most on the 
> Atlantis.
> 
> At any rate, I enjoy changing it up and having a “new” feel.  I’ve also tried 
> to make each bike have its own main purpose.  After having been really a one 
> bike guy for most of my life, this has been a lot of fun and admittedly 
> indulgent. Maybe something to give you a different perspective on the whole 
> thing?
> 
> Bill S
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Patrick Moore

Do let us know how the Black Mountain compares to the Roadini.

On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Matt Dreher <99m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Whoops, didn't see this before the reply went through.
>
> Yes, chainstays aren't the whole story. Front end geometry is a big deal
> for sure but in turns above 20mph where the wheel is deflected less I think
> the other elements of the geometry start to make themselves known. Not
> scientific, just a certain feeling I get,
>
> Well, here'll be an interesting experiment. I'm currently building up a
> 43cm Black Mtn. Monstercross. As you can see from bikeinsights here
> 
> it has 43cm stays, 17mm higher bottom bracket, but a pretty similar
> front-end geometry with slightly higher trail. I'll be migrating the
> wheelset from my Roadini so it'll be as neutral a comparison as one can
> really get without making a whole new frame.
>
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 3:36:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Matt: First, this is a question, not a contradiction
>>
>> I don't doubt that significantly lengthening chainstays affects ride, but
>> do a couple of cm in the stays affect steering as much as you say? I ask
>> because I've had several (6 -- I keep updating this number; at least 6 )
>> bikes with 44-45 cm stays, and many others with 42-43 cm stays, and at
>> least as far as my memories go, I don't recall that all the longer stayed
>> bikes were slower to turn than all of the shorter stayed bikes; or that all
>> the shorter stayed bikes were faster than all the etc etc. In fact, some of
>> the longer stayed bikes turned more quickly -- "felt more nimble" -- while
>> at least 1 of the short-stayed bikes (and, come to think of it, this one
>> may have had 40 or 39 cm stays -- old Schwinn Tempon; could cram a 25mm
>> tire in there only after taking a gentle hammer to the st bridge) handled
>> very sweetly; better, or at least more to my taste, than 2 of those with
>> 44/45 stays, and some with 42 cm stays handled more sedately than others
>> with the longer stays.
>>
>> Comparing all of these bikes in memory (well, not entirely in memory,
>> since I still have 2 of the 44/45s), their handling is all over the place,
>> so cs length is apparently not a sole determining factor in overall
>> handling experience. Other factors in my own experience are wheel diameter,
>> head angle, wheel weight, and tire width.
>>
>> Funny: I owned a first edition Sam Hill, and that did indeed exhibit the
>> "swoopy" feel that someone else described, but IMO, too much so, in that,
>> while it "carved a turn" so very nicely, once it was in the turn, it was
>> hard to adjust your line -- a quality that I did not like, as exhibited on
>> that bike. OTOH, one reason I didn't like the Herse was that it *didn't*
>> "carve a turn" as much as I like; it felt vague in turns. My 2 remaining
>> custom Roads give me, at least, exactly the balance between "natural" turn
>> in and "ease of adjustment." My first custom Road was *very slightly*
>> too twitchy. All these Roads use light, small 24" to 25" diameter wheels
>> (559 or 571, 24 3/4" with the 559 X 28 Elk Passes).
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 12:25 PM Matt Dreher <99m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I finally concluded that the chainstays on my 61 Roadini are just a hair
>>> too long at 46cm. I'm not opposed to longer chainstays, it's just that it
>>> would be nice if there were a Rivendell option other than the Roadeo that
>>> had slightly more traditional road geometry. If they had capped it at 44cm
>>> for the large sizes or specced horizontal dropouts to allow a bit of
>>> adjustability I probably wouldn't have a real issue with it.
>>>
>>> I don't buy the line that wheelbase doesn't affect handling
>>> significantly. I have an 90s road bike with 41cm stays that's exhausting to
>>> spend a long while on. The handling feels significantly more confident to
>>> me on that bike. I know that you can take the same lines but taking the
>>> same line on the long-stayed bike requires a good bit more lean than the
>>> other. It makes me a lot more hesitant to take corners as quickly on loose
>>> surfaces. Of course once you've lost traction it's easier to control and
>>> recover from skids with long chainstays but I'd rather not lose traction in
>>> the first place, you know?
>>>
>>> As someone who adjusts their bars below the saddle I'm also not really
>>> representative of the typical Rivendell rider, though. I suppose that at
>>> this point complaining about no shorter-chainstay'd Rivendells is like
>>> complaining that Cervelo doesn't have a steel option any more. Both
>>> companies once had the option for it but the type of riders they're
>>> intended for necessarily led them away from that.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Matt Dreher

Whoops, didn't see this before the reply went through.

Yes, chainstays aren't the whole story. Front end geometry is a big deal 
for sure but in turns above 20mph where the wheel is deflected less I think 
the other elements of the geometry start to make themselves known. Not 
scientific, just a certain feeling I get,

Well, here'll be an interesting experiment. I'm currently building up a 
43cm Black Mtn. Monstercross. As you can see from bikeinsights here 

 
it has 43cm stays, 17mm higher bottom bracket, but a pretty similar 
front-end geometry with slightly higher trail. I'll be migrating the 
wheelset from my Roadini so it'll be as neutral a comparison as one can 
really get without making a whole new frame.

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 3:36:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Matt: First, this is a question, not a contradiction
>
> I don't doubt that significantly lengthening chainstays affects ride, but 
> do a couple of cm in the stays affect steering as much as you say? I ask 
> because I've had several (6 -- I keep updating this number; at least 6 ) 
> bikes with 44-45 cm stays, and many others with 42-43 cm stays, and at 
> least as far as my memories go, I don't recall that all the longer stayed 
> bikes were slower to turn than all of the shorter stayed bikes; or that all 
> the shorter stayed bikes were faster than all the etc etc. In fact, some of 
> the longer stayed bikes turned more quickly -- "felt more nimble" -- while 
> at least 1 of the short-stayed bikes (and, come to think of it, this one 
> may have had 40 or 39 cm stays -- old Schwinn Tempon; could cram a 25mm 
> tire in there only after taking a gentle hammer to the st bridge) handled 
> very sweetly; better, or at least more to my taste, than 2 of those with 
> 44/45 stays, and some with 42 cm stays handled more sedately than others 
> with the longer stays.
>
> Comparing all of these bikes in memory (well, not entirely in memory, 
> since I still have 2 of the 44/45s), their handling is all over the place, 
> so cs length is apparently not a sole determining factor in overall 
> handling experience. Other factors in my own experience are wheel diameter, 
> head angle, wheel weight, and tire width.
>
> Funny: I owned a first edition Sam Hill, and that did indeed exhibit the 
> "swoopy" feel that someone else described, but IMO, too much so, in that, 
> while it "carved a turn" so very nicely, once it was in the turn, it was 
> hard to adjust your line -- a quality that I did not like, as exhibited on 
> that bike. OTOH, one reason I didn't like the Herse was that it *didn't* 
> "carve a turn" as much as I like; it felt vague in turns. My 2 remaining 
> custom Roads give me, at least, exactly the balance between "natural" turn 
> in and "ease of adjustment." My first custom Road was *very slightly* too 
> twitchy. All these Roads use light, small 24" to 25" diameter wheels (559 
> or 571, 24 3/4" with the 559 X 28 Elk Passes).
>
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 12:25 PM Matt Dreher <99m...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> I finally concluded that the chainstays on my 61 Roadini are just a hair 
>> too long at 46cm. I'm not opposed to longer chainstays, it's just that it 
>> would be nice if there were a Rivendell option other than the Roadeo that 
>> had slightly more traditional road geometry. If they had capped it at 44cm 
>> for the large sizes or specced horizontal dropouts to allow a bit of 
>> adjustability I probably wouldn't have a real issue with it. 
>>
>> I don't buy the line that wheelbase doesn't affect handling 
>> significantly. I have an 90s road bike with 41cm stays that's exhausting to 
>> spend a long while on. The handling feels significantly more confident to 
>> me on that bike. I know that you can take the same lines but taking the 
>> same line on the long-stayed bike requires a good bit more lean than the 
>> other. It makes me a lot more hesitant to take corners as quickly on loose 
>> surfaces. Of course once you've lost traction it's easier to control and 
>> recover from skids with long chainstays but I'd rather not lose traction in 
>> the first place, you know?
>>
>> As someone who adjusts their bars below the saddle I'm also not really 
>> representative of the typical Rivendell rider, though. I suppose that at 
>> this point complaining about no shorter-chainstay'd Rivendells is like 
>> complaining that Cervelo doesn't have a steel option any more. Both 
>> companies once had the option for it but the type of riders they're 
>> intended for necessarily led them away from that.
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Patrick Moore

Matt: First, this is a question, not a contradiction

I don't doubt that significantly lengthening chainstays affects ride, but
do a couple of cm in the stays affect steering as much as you say? I ask
because I've had several (6 -- I keep updating this number; at least 6 )
bikes with 44-45 cm stays, and many others with 42-43 cm stays, and at
least as far as my memories go, I don't recall that all the longer stayed
bikes were slower to turn than all of the shorter stayed bikes; or that all
the shorter stayed bikes were faster than all the etc etc. In fact, some of
the longer stayed bikes turned more quickly -- "felt more nimble" -- while
at least 1 of the short-stayed bikes (and, come to think of it, this one
may have had 40 or 39 cm stays -- old Schwinn Tempon; could cram a 25mm
tire in there only after taking a gentle hammer to the st bridge) handled
very sweetly; better, or at least more to my taste, than 2 of those with
44/45 stays, and some with 42 cm stays handled more sedately than others
with the longer stays.

Comparing all of these bikes in memory (well, not entirely in memory, since
I still have 2 of the 44/45s), their handling is all over the place, so cs
length is apparently not a sole determining factor in overall handling
experience. Other factors in my own experience are wheel diameter, head
angle, wheel weight, and tire width.

Funny: I owned a first edition Sam Hill, and that did indeed exhibit the
"swoopy" feel that someone else described, but IMO, too much so, in that,
while it "carved a turn" so very nicely, once it was in the turn, it was
hard to adjust your line -- a quality that I did not like, as exhibited on
that bike. OTOH, one reason I didn't like the Herse was that it *didn't*
"carve a turn" as much as I like; it felt vague in turns. My 2 remaining
custom Roads give me, at least, exactly the balance between "natural" turn
in and "ease of adjustment." My first custom Road was *very slightly* too
twitchy. All these Roads use light, small 24" to 25" diameter wheels (559
or 571, 24 3/4" with the 559 X 28 Elk Passes).

On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 12:25 PM Matt Dreher <99m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I finally concluded that the chainstays on my 61 Roadini are just a hair
> too long at 46cm. I'm not opposed to longer chainstays, it's just that it
> would be nice if there were a Rivendell option other than the Roadeo that
> had slightly more traditional road geometry. If they had capped it at 44cm
> for the large sizes or specced horizontal dropouts to allow a bit of
> adjustability I probably wouldn't have a real issue with it.
>
> I don't buy the line that wheelbase doesn't affect handling significantly.
> I have an 90s road bike with 41cm stays that's exhausting to spend a long
> while on. The handling feels significantly more confident to me on that
> bike. I know that you can take the same lines but taking the same line on
> the long-stayed bike requires a good bit more lean than the other. It makes
> me a lot more hesitant to take corners as quickly on loose surfaces. Of
> course once you've lost traction it's easier to control and recover from
> skids with long chainstays but I'd rather not lose traction in the first
> place, you know?
>
> As someone who adjusts their bars below the saddle I'm also not really
> representative of the typical Rivendell rider, though. I suppose that at
> this point complaining about no shorter-chainstay'd Rivendells is like
> complaining that Cervelo doesn't have a steel option any more. Both
> companies once had the option for it but the type of riders they're
> intended for necessarily led them away from that.
>
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> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Joe Bernard

"Worth mentioning that that sounds like my sport bike, a Boulder All Road 650b 
true low trail skinny tubes and all. It's pretty short. Diving is how I 
describe it going into turns. It also carves good. Not swoopy though. Hmm."

It also sounds like the Crust Lightning Bolt low-trail bike I had. Not my 
thing, it was twitchy and unstable and weird and I couldn't talk myself into 
putting up with it. I lost a lot of money on that learning curve...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Paul Clifton



On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 2:42:47 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I did ride Japanese bikes that were short and twitchy and dived instantly 
> into turns and you could change lines 5 times whether you wanted to or not.
>

Worth mentioning that that sounds like my sport bike, a Boulder All Road 
650b true low trail skinny tubes and all. It's pretty short. Diving is how 
I describe it going into turns. It also carves good. Not swoopy though. Hmm.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Paul Clifton

It's good to hear the Sam carves like that. I've only ridden a drop bar Riv 
(Sam in 2011 or 12) around the shop a couple times. It was the first time I 
rode a Riv and the handling was noticeably fantastic immediately.

I wonder what you'd get if you took a Sam, lengthened the top tube a lot, 
and put a long stem with swept back bars on it. That's got me thinking that 
carving might be swooping, but when you are bent forward, instead of 
sitting more upright?

Let's get some photos of countersteering on various Rivs. I'll try to snap 
one when I have some fooling around time.

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:35:30 AM UTC-6, Jason Fuller wrote:
>
> What Paul describes as swoopy is probably the same thing I've described to 
> myself and maybe others as Rivendells (or, at at least the two I have) as 
> carving when cornering. And I expect it's because the rider is so well 
> balanced between front and back wheels with a Riv frame. Length is probably 
> the secondary input

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Paul Clifton

Joe, I think you're right on about the stability and how it relates to 
motorcycles. My dad's motorcycle skill books went really  deep into 
countersteering and pushing on the bars. I also think that because bikes 
are smaller and the human is the motor, there is more to swoopiness than 
the bike's tendency to return to straight.

Like Jason is saying, it probably has to do with balancing weight between 
the front and back wheel, and I think also balance of steering input force 
with the bike's tendency for stability. Then there are speed, traction, and 
tire deflection things going on, so fatter softer tires may also increase 
swoopiness, which is another thing Riv has kinda always done before it was 
cool.

I do see long bikes as a logical progression of the Riv riding aesthetic. I 
also think that the Gus is probably prophetic, but I haven't ridden one. If 
we lived in a bikey world, the Baby Bike would be a game changer. I really 
need to find a 52 Clem to ride around. Maybe the Clem nails it for 90% of 
everything. The other 10% are special cases, like big rocks or small kids.

I put the long stem back on the Baby Bike last night. I'm gonna think about 
it more while I ride errands today.

Paul

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 3:01:09 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> And to double-down on my observation, this stability and predictability in 
> steering is why I always like Rivs more than other bikes (and I've owned a 
> bunch of others). It's not just wheelbase or chainstay length, I know 
> there's some other can of numbers Grant juggles then sprinkles the magic 
> equation onto the tubes. Even more than the looks, the lugs, the 
> parts..what I love above all about Rivbikes is they go where I point them 
> and don't second guess me. It's comforting. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Jason Fuller

What Paul describes as swoopy is probably the same thing I've described to 
myself and maybe others as Rivendells (or, at at least the two I have) as 
carving when cornering. And I expect it's because the rider is so well balanced 
between front and back wheels with a Riv frame. Length is probably the 
secondary input

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Garth




FWIW, bike stems are as short as zero mm for bmx riders. There are also 
30+mm mtb stems which would require a quill adapter and shims, which is no 
big deal, and there are 2 short quill stems that also require shims. The 
zero Wright stem appears non-available. 

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/chromag-ranger-v2-stem/rp-prod146454

https://www.analogcycles.com/product/analog-wright-stem/

https://crustbikes.com/products/nitto-26-0-bj-stem/

There's also reversing the above stems or any + rise stem. there is 
something in RivReader #42 about it too ... 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/pdf/RR42_web.pdf



All this said  everything is alright Leah and this could never 
stated too much  as It's Life Itself ! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Joe Bernard

And to double-down on my observation, this stability and predictability in 
steering is why I always like Rivs more than other bikes (and I've owned a 
bunch of others). It's not just wheelbase or chainstay length, I know there's 
some other can of numbers Grant juggles then sprinkles the magic equation onto 
the tubes. Even more than the looks, the lugs, the parts..what I love above all 
about Rivbikes is they go where I point them and don't second guess me. It's 
comforting. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-09 Thread Joe Bernard

I used to be heavy into the motorcycles, and Ducatis of the era (late-'70s to
mid-'80s) were visibly longer than Japanese sportbikes and had a reputation for
slow steering. What the magazine testers meant by "slow" was you had to really
push (countersteer) on the bar to get the bike leaned into a corner, then it
would track like on rails in one sweeping arc with always that sense of the bar
pushing back against your palm like it wanted to stand up straight again.

I never rode one, but I did ride Japanese bikes that were short and twitchy and
dived instantly into turns and you could change lines 5 times whether you
wanted to or not. It was fun, but could wear you out in short order because the
bike was always dancing..there was no sense of stability, of the bike staying
in one spot long enough for you to check a mirror.

I think Grant designs that Ducati-like stability into Rivs, and it's more
pronounced in the longer ones. You get that sense that you're "in" the bike and
carving through a turn, not "on" it with the thing moving all over the place. I
believe this is what you mean by swoopy and I like it, too.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Paul Clifton

Joe's comment got me thinking, and I realized I never really said what I
meant to say about the qualities of long bikes. I really didn't mean to
meander off back to Leah's bike fit, and stem shopping. My bad ...

*The opinions expressed in this opinion are entirely opinions. I'm not
trying to disagree with anyone. Just my interpretation of my experience of
long bikes.*

The thing I like about long bikes is swoopiness. I may try to describe
swoopiness, if anyone wants, but maybe everyone knows what I'm sayin', and
I'll leave it at that. It's the feeling of riding that I find enhanced by
the long Rivs.

I'm speculating about geometry, but maybe swoopiness comes from the
combination of how far in front of the back wheel you are and how far
behind to front wheel you are. Also, the bike has to maintain a somewhat
normal riding position to qualify as a bike, so seatstay angle and length
have a fairly narrow acceptable range.

I've been trying to figure out exactly how chainstay length relates to
that. Grant says 'stability' right? I think basically more bike out back
increases the bike's tendency to return to vertical. Maybe it has to do
with mellowing the impact changes in rider weight when dancing on the
pedals and steering with thighs and hips in a way that makes it easy to
ride standing up no hands, or to use your hips as leverage for
countersteering when digging into a curve. Like, you can just sit down into
the bike and get it turning, but you have to push the handlebar pretty hard
to keep it from stabilizing.

Long top tubes put the rider further behind the front wheel, which may also
reduce the impact of rider movements/minor imbalances on the steering.

Slacker head tube angles may play a role, but it's not everything. Riv
makes swoopy bikes that aren't particularly slack these days, and there are
very slack modern MTBs that aren't exactly swoopy. But head tube angle does
impact how straight the wheel tracks, so it's another factor in stability.

So the swept back handlebars are an answer to a long effective top tube,
but they also make it possible to run a long stem. And IMO stem length
enhances the swoopy effect. It may give more leverage for countersteering.
I really don't know. Maybe the more leverage for countersteering that's
built in to the setup, the less it feels like you actually have to push to
keep the bike leaning. So maybe upping leverage keeps the swoopiness and
minimizes the perceived effort of swooping.

So, long effective top tubes, long chainstays, long stems with very swept
back bars make swoopy bikes. Assuming the front end geometry is
complimentary. I like swoopy bikes, but I doubt everyone does. Swoopy bikes
are easy to ride standing up with no hands and they are easy to carve turns
while going fast down double track. Fun to jump up and down on the pedals
and howl at the moon or stand up and surf on the top tube. All the added
stability of length makes sure the the bike returns to vertical anytime a
swoop gets out of hand, but add a bit of effort during the swoop.

Drw,

The MTBubbe is less swoopy than the Baby Bike. The MTBubbe feels quicker in
terms of handling and acceleration, but it may not be. As a townie, I'd
take the Baby Bike for sure. Touring or mountain biking would really be
splitting hairs between the two and would depend on the specific ride.
That's assuming the tubing was up to the task. The 45 Clem L is way too
small for me, but I can tell that it'd swoop for someone. My wife loves it,
in a way she's never loved any bike, but I've never asked her if she thinks
it swoops. She rides it like it swoops though.

Paul

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

"I’m sorry, Paul, I sold all the stems. I heard stems will sit a while, but 
they were snapped right up. I’m sorry!"

Wrapped in Christmas ribbon. You couldn't even see what they looked like and 
she sold every one immediately. That was crazy! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Drw

Hey Paul,
Can you describe the differences between the roscoe mtnmixtie (I also have one) 
and the Clem L?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Leah Peterson

I’m sorry, Paul, I sold all the stems. I heard stems will sit a while, but they 
were snapped right up. I’m sorry!

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 8, 2020, at 5:58 PM, Paul Clifton  wrote:
> 
> 
> Leah, I forgot to ask ...
> 
> Are you interested in selling any of those stems you tested? I'm looking for 
> a 90mm (or 80mm maybe) and would be glad to buy one of yours.
> 
> Or maybe a trade for the 80mm dirt drop stem I have on the baby bike right 
> now, if you are inclined to try a riser stem.
> 
> Paul
> 
> P.S. Step-throughs are about 50% of my bikes. But they get ridden the most. 
> All the rest are uni-taskers for fast and rowdy rides, and I'd get rid of 
> them all before the baby bike and mtbubbe.
> 
>> On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 6:21:42 PM UTC-6, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>> Paul! You like step-throughs even more than me!!! 
>> 
>> My wheels are all 650B. My stem is a 50. I hope you are wrong wrong wrong 
>> because I really want this bike to work now that I’ve purchased it and 
>> decked it out. I don’t know if it feels twitchy in handling; not that I 
>> realize, but heaven help me if I ride Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you 
>> are right. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Paul Clifton

Leah, I forgot to ask ...

Are you interested in selling any of those stems you tested? I'm looking 
for a 90mm (or 80mm maybe) and would be glad to buy one of yours.

Or maybe a trade for the 80mm dirt drop stem I have on the baby bike right 
now, if you are inclined to try a riser stem.

Paul

P.S. Step-throughs are about 50% of my bikes. But they get ridden the most. 
All the rest are uni-taskers for fast and rowdy rides, and I'd get rid of 
them all before the baby bike and mtbubbe.

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 6:21:42 PM UTC-6, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Paul! You like step-throughs even more than me!!! 
>
> My wheels are all 650B. My stem is a 50. I hope you are wrong wrong wrong 
> because I really want this bike to work now that I’ve purchased it and 
> decked it out. I don’t know if it feels twitchy in handling; not that I 
> realize, but heaven help me if I ride Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you 
> are right. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Paul Clifton

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 6:49:42 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Yes and the stem length issue is being directed at a very specific 
> situation, the Baby Bike. I'm not sure we can use that to compare to other 
> frames. 

 I don't necessarily agree. I'm pretty sure stem length effects handling on 
every bike to some degree, and the Baby Bike's head tube angle is 70.5*, 
which is only a little bit slack. So I do think the concept applies. 
However, you're right that Leah's experience isn't quite the same as mine, 
and I'm definitely projecting some of my own personal nitpicking. On the 
other hand, many of us have bought a bike that didn't work for us (fit, 
handling, component mistmatches, etc.) and when you get down to a 50mm stem 
with Bosco bars and the bike still feels weird, it's possible that it's the 
wrong size.

Leah wrote:

> I hope you are wrong wrong wrong because I really want this bike to work 
> now that I’ve purchased it and decked it out. I don’t know if it feels 
> twitchy in handling; not that I realize, but heaven help me if I ride 
> Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you are right.
>

Leah, I know you'll ride the bike and enjoy it. I rode my Long Haul Trucker 
with a 50mm stem for thousands of miles and loved most of them. I also 
fretted over how it felt for many of those miles and built and rebuilt it 
for years. It was definitely somewhat too big, but it was the bike I had, 
and it was GREAT! For me, the hardest part of being a bike nerd is letting 
go of a bike I love in spite of it's shortcomings (longcomings .. nah ...). 
It's even harder to get rid of a bike than to want a bike and not get to 
own it. But the bikes that I don't work and I have to get rid of always 
teach me something about what works and what doesn't. Either way, bike life 
is good.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Ah, that's a good data point, Patrick. If there's one thing that's almost 
universally true in cycling it's this: not-serious cyclists run the saddle too 
low, serious cyclists learn this is bad and raise their saddle too high. 
Everyone reading this should drop their saddle just a bit lower than they think 
is reasonable right now. Now a little bit more. Now ride for a week, your 
saddle was too high. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Leah, sounds like you're doing great and have it well in hand. I took years 
to learn to make big changes then dial toward wee ones. If you want, 
however, feel free to try the vicarious version of us being there. Ride by 
feel. Arms tired? Core sore? Anywhere talking to you? Hands numb? When you 
pedal, do the top of your hip bones go up and down because you're reaching 
for the pedal? Anything else strike you? Side photo of you riding on the 
bike, feet at 12 and 6 (top and bottom), in your normal position. Of 
course, you'll get too may opinions and many contradictory, so we may not 
be much help. Grin.

Note: counter intuitively, lowering the saddle will also effectively raise 
the handlebars and shorten reach, just as raising the handlebars does. I 
ride with my saddle lower, as that's what I preferred with fixed gear.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 5:50:53 PM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Paul, I re-measured my PBH and get 81. Makes more sense. 
>
> D. Patrick - that is so encouraging. Truly. I like my bars at max height 
> as well. 
>
> I wish I lived closer to some of your bike folks and you could see the 
> bike and how it fits and tell me if I’ve gotten it right. It feels right, 
> but it’s amazing what you get used to...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Let's all take a road trip to Nevada! The Bicycle Belle Rivendell Jamboree!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

Paul, I re-measured my PBH and get 81. Makes more sense. 

D. Patrick - that is so encouraging. Truly. I like my bars at max height as 
well. 

I wish I lived closer to some of your bike folks and you could see the bike and 
how it fits and tell me if I’ve gotten it right. It feels right, but it’s 
amazing what you get used to...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Yes and the stem length issue is being directed at a very specific situation, 
the Baby Bike. I'm not sure we can use that to compare to other frames. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Leah, rest assured! I used a 5cm stem for several years and loved it on 
both my QB and Hunqapillar. They both sport Bullmoose, at max height and 
also ride beautifully. Others rave about the 3cm and even 0cm stems offered 
by someone here recently.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 5:21:42 PM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Paul! You like step-throughs even more than me!!! 
>
> My wheels are all 650B. My stem is a 50. I hope you are wrong wrong wrong 
> because I really want this bike to work now that I’ve purchased it and 
> decked it out. I don’t know if it feels twitchy in handling; not that I 
> realize, but heaven help me if I ride Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you 
> are right. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

Paul! You like step-throughs even more than me!!! 

My wheels are all 650B. My stem is a 50. I hope you are wrong wrong wrong 
because I really want this bike to work now that I’ve purchased it and decked 
it out. I don’t know if it feels twitchy in handling; not that I realize, but 
heaven help me if I ride Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you are right. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread j.schwartz

@Iambbo APPROVE 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Leah Peterson

Well, Lester, we’ve been over this. I have the shortest stem money can buy on 
that bike now. That’s an old photo. There’s only like 100 posts on this topic, 
try to keep up! 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 8, 2020, at 2:49 PM, Lester Lammers  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 12:15:45 PM UTC-5, Kurt Henry wrote:
>> BBDD, I think I've followed along in this thread and a few other related 
>> ones, but to make sure I'm with you:  the two bikes in your photo are both 
>> set up for you to ride vs. one of yours and one set up for someone else?  I 
>> know angles can on photos can distort distances, but it looks like the 
>> closest Clem is noticeably longer than the Clementine against the car.  
>> Maybe 6 inches difference?  I thought you were talking about a difference 
>> that you felt when you ride or have to move it around, but that pic makes it 
>> looks like a difference that you would clearly see just walking by.  Not 
>> going to say that I'm not curious to try out one of the long wheelbase 
>> bikes, but that's a lot of wheelbase to chew on...
>> Kurt Henry
>> Lancaster, PA - where I've sold three bikes in the past 6 months, have at 
>> least one more that needs to find a new home, and REALLY shouldn't be 
>> looking at bringing one back in.  But I'll be darned if I'm not getting 
>> mixte curious.  If that's a thing.
>> 
>>> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>>> wrote:
>>> These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I 
>>> cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe 
>>> me a story. 
>>> 
>>> Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I 
>>> don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still 
>>> just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m 
>>> hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue 
>>> paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk 
>>> me: 
>>> 1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 
>>> 
>>> 2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so LONG, 
>>> and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the time. I 
>>> don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I could be 
>>> wrong.
>>> 
>>> 3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a 
>>> curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have 
>>> seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember 
>>> the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for 
>>> a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging 
>>> this bike around. But I do.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I 
>>> think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. 
>>> Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, so why am I pushing my saddle 
>>> forward? Pehaps the stem is too long?
>>> 
>>> Today I hopped on my Betz and talk about shock. The bike felt short. I felt 
>>> short. I stood up to pedal and wondered if I might fall over the front 
>>> wheel. It was weird - and this was my one and only for 7 years! I would 
>>> never expect it to feel weird.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Then I got on the Clem and felt like I was 7 feet tall. It’s amazing how 
>>> different these bikes are and what you can get used to. I will keep at it, 
>>> never fear. I want the bike to do its thing and I really want to feel 
>>> comfortable. I think you’ll note your 2019 is way different than your OC. I 
>>> await your report - which you will undoubtedly treat us to here.
>>> PS Very clever - apples to clementines.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Mark Roland  wrote:
> 
 
 Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled 
 up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes 
 place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original 
 Clementine.)
 
 I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about 
 your new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger 
 diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I 
 understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for 
 sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your 
 other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua 
 Clementine?
 
 It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in 
 the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it 
 do its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out 
 of my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days 
 with no judgement,

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Lester Lammers



On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 12:15:45 PM UTC-5, Kurt Henry wrote:
>
> BBDD, I think I've followed along in this thread and a few other related 
> ones, but to make sure I'm with you:  the two bikes in your photo are both 
> set up for you to ride vs. one of yours and one set up for someone else?  I 
> know angles can on photos can distort distances, but it looks like the 
> closest Clem is noticeably longer than the Clementine against the car.  
> Maybe 6 inches difference?  I thought you were talking about a difference 
> that you felt when you ride or have to move it around, but that pic makes 
> it looks like a difference that you would clearly see just walking by.  Not 
> going to say that I'm not curious to try out one of the long wheelbase 
> bikes, but that's a lot of wheelbase to chew on...
> Kurt Henry
> Lancaster, PA - where I've sold three bikes in the past 6 months, have at 
> least one more that needs to find a new home, and REALLY shouldn't be 
> looking at bringing one back in.  But I'll be darned if I'm not getting 
> mixte curious.  If that's a thing.
>
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>> These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I 
>> cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe 
>> me a story. 
>>
>> Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I 
>> don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still 
>> just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m 
>> hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue 
>> paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk 
>> me: 
>> 1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 
>>
>> 2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so 
>> LONG, and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the 
>> time. I don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I 
>> could be wrong.
>>
>> 3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a 
>> curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have 
>> seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember 
>> the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for 
>> a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging 
>> this bike around. But I do.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I 
>> think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. 
>> Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, *so why am I pushing my saddle 
>> forward? Pehaps the stem is too long?*
>>
>> Today I hopped on my Betz and talk about shock. The bike felt short. I 
>> felt short. I stood up to pedal and wondered if I might fall over the front 
>> wheel. It was weird - and this was my one and only for 7 years! I would 
>> never expect it to feel weird.
>>
>> Then I got on the Clem and felt like I was 7 feet tall. It’s amazing how 
>> different these bikes are and what you can get used to. I will keep at it, 
>> never fear. I want the bike to do its thing and I really want to feel 
>> comfortable. I think you’ll note your 2019 is way different than your OC. I 
>> await your report - which you will undoubtedly treat us to here.
>> PS Very clever - apples to clementines.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Mark Roland  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled 
>> up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes 
>> place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original 
>> Clementine.)
>>
>> I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about 
>> your new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger 
>> diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I 
>> understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for 
>> sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your 
>> other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua 
>> Clementine?
>>
>> It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in 
>> the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it do 
>> its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out of 
>> my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days with 
>> no judgement, just ride 'em. This is not to suggest a compromise in any 
>> way, as is sometimes implied when the term "get used to it" is used. It 
>> just means that if your body is really feeling an actual response 
>> difference, assuming it's not something inherently unsafe, it may just be 
>> giving your nervous system and other parts of your being some time to 
>> adjust.
>>
>> I had a Big

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Important to note here too is the reality that with the mixte/low swooping 
top tube of a Clementine (I persist in calling it that, though technically 
the Clem L) and the Hillibikes Gus Boots Willsen et al, a person will "fit" 
2-3 frame sizes, so part of the frame buying process is to understand which 
one makes sense for the riding a person does. It creates the idea for the 
buyer that "I could go medium and more aggressive bars (noodles, moustache, 
etc), or large and bullmoose/wavy/Jones, or XL and and more upright, back 
bars. What kind of riding do I do? 

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread Leah Peterson

Kurt, 

You got it right - those are both my bikes and both are set up for me in that 
photo. The 2015 vs the 2019. You notice it by walking by for sure - even if you 
aren’t a bike person. I’m telling you it’s a difference you feel, a difference 
you see, and it causes real issues on bike racks and when backing out or 
maneuvering in tight spaces. I remember Roberta hauling her bike up the 3 
stairs into a bus and making the sharp turn down the aisle. I don’t know how 
that would go with a 2019 Clem.

Mixte curious - it’s a thing. And you’ll wonder why you waited and find 
yourself abandoning your diamond frames in favor of the mixte. They are the 
sexiest, loveliest and most practical and comfortable bikes. (She says as an 
angry mob comes for her. )
L

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 8, 2020, at 9:15 AM, 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch

BBDD, I think I've followed along in this thread and a few other related 
ones, but to make sure I'm with you:  the two bikes in your photo are both 
set up for you to ride vs. one of yours and one set up for someone else?  I 
know angles can on photos can distort distances, but it looks like the 
closest Clem is noticeably longer than the Clementine against the car.  
Maybe 6 inches difference?  I thought you were talking about a difference 
that you felt when you ride or have to move it around, but that pic makes 
it looks like a difference that you would clearly see just walking by.  Not 
going to say that I'm not curious to try out one of the long wheelbase 
bikes, but that's a lot of wheelbase to chew on...
Kurt Henry
Lancaster, PA - where I've sold three bikes in the past 6 months, have at 
least one more that needs to find a new home, and REALLY shouldn't be 
looking at bringing one back in.  But I'll be darned if I'm not getting 
mixte curious.  If that's a thing.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I 
> cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe 
> me a story. 
>
> Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I 
> don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still 
> just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m 
> hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue 
> paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk 
> me: 
> 1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 
>
> 2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so 
> LONG, and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the 
> time. I don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I 
> could be wrong.
>
> 3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a 
> curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have 
> seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember 
> the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for 
> a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging 
> this bike around. But I do.
>
>
>
> 4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I 
> think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. 
> Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, so why am I pushing my saddle 
> forward? 
>
> Today I hopped on my Betz and talk about shock. The bike felt short. I 
> felt short. I stood up to pedal and wondered if I might fall over the front 
> wheel. It was weird - and this was my one and only for 7 years! I would 
> never expect it to feel weird.
>
> Then I got on the Clem and felt like I was 7 feet tall. It’s amazing how 
> different these bikes are and what you can get used to. I will keep at it, 
> never fear. I want the bike to do its thing and I really want to feel 
> comfortable. I think you’ll note your 2019 is way different than your OC. I 
> await your report - which you will undoubtedly treat us to here.
> PS Very clever - apples to clementines.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Mark Roland  > wrote:
>
> 
> Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled 
> up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes 
> place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original 
> Clementine.)
>
> I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about 
> your new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger 
> diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I 
> understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for 
> sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your 
> other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua 
> Clementine?
>
> It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in 
> the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it do 
> its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out of 
> my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days with 
> no judgement, just ride 'em. This is not to suggest a compromise in any 
> way, as is sometimes implied when the term "get used to it" is used. It 
> just means that if your body is really feeling an actual response 
> difference, assuming it's not something inherently unsafe, it may just be 
> giving your nervous system and other parts of your being some time to 
> adjust.
>
> I had a Big Dummy for a few years, when my son was younger. Of course it 
> was heavy, and often, but not always, loaded. But it was a fun bike to 
> ride, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and missed it after I sold it. The 
>

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-08 Thread masmojo

Yes, Hugh that's my point entirely. I think I'd worry less about the 
satisfaction of getting a friction shift right & more about the satisfaction of 
changing ones own tire.
On the other hand bike shops are suffering now, they can use all the flats you 
have to be fixed!

People who don't know how to fix a flat buy bikes online. They don't have any 
tools, etc. Then they end up paying to have it assembled. Ultimately, these 
days it's not even about saving money, it's just that front end convenience of 
clicking & buying. Even if it means more work on the back end. 
It's like they see it, get excited, click on it & when it shows up, maybe 
they're surprised it's not assembled!?
It hurts my brain. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?