Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

OK, misunderstood; I thought Islabikes were walking bikes for toddlers. No,
I can see a 7 or 8 year old appreciating something better than a 12" wheel
department store bike.

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:50 AM 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Removing the drive train? You mean to make it a stride a bike? The bikes
> being discussed are for kids presumably well-past that stage. And sure, my
> guy might not "care" but only because he has no baseline. In between the
> Islabike and the WOOM, I did assemble a nifty vintage GT Mt. Bike, complete
> with custom 150 cranks that I had a friend machine for me. He seemed
> perfectly content. But after a downhill spill, I decided to spring for the
> WOOM, remembering how happy I (and Mack) was with the Islabike. I'm not
> fussy or overprotective or the spoiling, get him what he wants only the
> best kind of parent, but a nice bike for my kid, absolutely. Cost is about
> 3 sets of Compass/Rene Herse tires, or a mid-price wheel set from Rivendell.
>
> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 10:30:45 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I'm certainly long past the Islabike stage of parenthood, but I'm curious
>> what Islabikes have to offer that a decent, properly sized child's bike
>> with drivetrain removed does not?
>>
>> Besides avoiding the hassle of removing the drivetrain, of course.
>>
>> Patrick Moore, whose daughter stole his car, in ABQ, NM
>>
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**





*Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
--- J.R.R. Tolkien
---
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Leah Peterson]

Oh, it matters. Would I have sprung for the $$$ Islabike after buying the Giant 
only months before if it did not? A bike mechanic at REI was servicing both 
boys’ bikes and he knew the hill on our school commute. Baby Bear had been 
frustrated on the Giant - he was proud of his bright yellow new bike, but he 
could never make it up the hill without walking the bike and feeling defeated. 
The mechanic picked up the Giant and said, “If you have a child who will ride 
THIS bike up THAT hill, you have a very good kid. This bike is HEAVY.” And it 
was. It weighed as much or more than my older son’s bike. It weighed as much as 
my child, or nearly. I was heartsick. 

I sold that thing and bought that Islabike quicker than a jackrabbit on a date. 
Baby Bear took off on that little red rocket and beat us up the hill every darn 
day. He hung onto that bike for years before I finally insisted he needed the 
next size up. 

It matters.



Sent from my iPad

> On May 4, 2019, at 7:33 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> 
> 50% of rider's body weight, and with a 220 mm Q factor for a 3'4" child 
> (didn't measure, it's metaphorical, but wouldn't surprise me if it were 
> literal for the 12" tricycle with 3" wide pneumatic tires that I bought for 2 
> year old daughter).. Frankly, though, IME, small children don't care (sample 
> size of 1) even though more expensive bikes do please the parent.
> 
>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 3:19 PM 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>>  wrote:
>> And to clarify, I don't worry about bike weight, but with kids I think  it 
>> can be a negative when a bike ends up to be 35-50% of their body weight.
>> 
>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:16:55 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>> Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice bike. 
>>> Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They also 
>>> tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and brake 
>>> levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the WOOM are 
>>> worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually remain 
>>> in good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And yeah, 
>>> Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK. 
>>> 
 On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:06:24 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
 Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell 
 there and in the EU. 
 
 
 Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking. 
 
 https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories
 
 Here's a review of a 20" version for example : 
 https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/
 
 
 
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still 'round the corner there may wait
> A new road or a secret gate,
> And though we pass them by today,
> Tomorrow we may come this way
> And take the hidden paths that run
> Towards the Moon or to the Sun.
> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
> ---
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
> Other professional writing services
> Expensive! But good.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Removing the drive train? You mean to make it a stride a bike? The bikes 
being discussed are for kids presumably well-past that stage. And sure, my 
guy might not "care" but only because he has no baseline. In between the 
Islabike and the WOOM, I did assemble a nifty vintage GT Mt. Bike, complete 
with custom 150 cranks that I had a friend machine for me. He seemed 
perfectly content. But after a downhill spill, I decided to spring for the 
WOOM, remembering how happy I (and Mack) was with the Islabike. I'm not 
fussy or overprotective or the spoiling, get him what he wants only the 
best kind of parent, but a nice bike for my kid, absolutely. Cost is about 
3 sets of Compass/Rene Herse tires, or a mid-price wheel set from Rivendell.

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 10:30:45 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'm certainly long past the Islabike stage of parenthood, but I'm curious 
> what Islabikes have to offer that a decent, properly sized child's bike 
> with drivetrain removed does not?
>
> Besides avoiding the hassle of removing the drivetrain, of course.
>
> Patrick Moore, whose daughter stole his car, in ABQ, NM
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'd urge you to consider a bike with handbrakes. We found the conversion to a 
bike with gears MUCH easier if they were already used to handbrakes. Even their 
push bike has handbrakes, and our second two daughters pick it up right away 
whereas our first two were confused by them at a much later age because they 
had gears and brakes thrown at them together.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deborah Coffin]

David—
PM me, if you would. I believe there are 2 sizes of the Beinn 20–one “S” and on 
“L.” You can let me know how much you want for it.

Thanks to you all for the suggestions. I’m looking into some of the other 
options (Woom 4, Prevelo, Cleary Hedgehog) generously mentioned. The grandsons 
are not just ready for gears and handbrakes.

One grandson, the one turning 5, lives out in Bolinas and has been riding his 
bike for more than a year (instantly rode inside the bike shop, first try) 
after a couple of years on a no-pedal balance bike. He rides everywhere and 
lives on the little Mesa, so has a big hill to descend/ascend wherever he goes. 
He’s actually taller than the one who will turn 6 in Sept., who lives in 
Emeryville. He and I ride around town together. They are competitive with one 
another, and right now they have the same first bike, but I suspect the 5 year 
old might appreciate a bit more aggressive ride. 

I’m sure any of these bikes will be amazing and a far cry from the clunky stuff 
that cause many kids to decide riding a bike is only sort of ok.

Islabikes stopped doing business in the US for two reasons. One involved the 
need for US kid bikes to come equipped with coaster brakes (they have 
handbrakes); the other issue was Brexit. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[David Bivins]

Deborah, I have the Beinn 20, which I think is the 6+ bike. My son outgrew
it. If you want the specs, I can copy the original order for you.

My child cared. He wanted "a bike that looks like daddy's" and the Linus we
got him first was OK, but I really took hook, line, and sinker the
Islabike, with its shrunken-down and lighter, not just smaller, bike (after
he outgrew the Linus).
We were going to be commuting by bike to school every day, but we
unexpectedly were eligible for a school bus on our corner the next school
year, so we ran with that. I was really bummed to have gotten him this
amazing bike and really only get to take a few awesome rides together.
That said, Islabikes are beautiful and I honestly don't regret making the
purchase.

David B in Brooklyn

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:33 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> 50% of rider's body weight, and with a 220 mm Q factor for a 3'4" child
> (didn't measure, it's metaphorical, but wouldn't surprise me if it were
> literal for the 12" tricycle with 3" wide pneumatic tires that I bought for
> 2 year old daughter).. Frankly, though, IME, small children don't care
> (sample size of 1) even though more expensive bikes do please the parent.
>
> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 3:19 PM 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> And to clarify, I don't worry about bike weight, but with kids I think
>> it can be a negative when a bike ends up to be 35-50% of their body weight.
>>
>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:16:55 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice
>>> bike. Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They
>>> also tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and
>>> brake levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the
>>> WOOM are worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually
>>> remain in good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And
>>> yeah, Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:06:24 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:

 Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell
 there and in the EU.


 Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking.

 https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories

 Here's a review of a 20" version for example :
 https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/



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>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> **
>
>
>
>
>
> *Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
> though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
> hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
> ---
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
> Other professional writing services
> Expensive! But good.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

50% of rider's body weight, and with a 220 mm Q factor for a 3'4" child
(didn't measure, it's metaphorical, but wouldn't surprise me if it were
literal for the 12" tricycle with 3" wide pneumatic tires that I bought for
2 year old daughter).. Frankly, though, IME, small children don't care
(sample size of 1) even though more expensive bikes do please the parent.

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 3:19 PM 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> And to clarify, I don't worry about bike weight, but with kids I think  it
> can be a negative when a bike ends up to be 35-50% of their body weight.
>
> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:16:55 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice
>> bike. Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They
>> also tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and
>> brake levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the
>> WOOM are worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually
>> remain in good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And
>> yeah, Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK.
>>
>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:06:24 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>>>
>>> Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell
>>> there and in the EU.
>>>
>>>
>>> Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking.
>>>
>>> https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories
>>>
>>> Here's a review of a 20" version for example :
>>> https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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-- 



**





*Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
--- J.R.R. Tolkien
---
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
Other professional writing services
Expensive! But good.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

I'm certainly long past the Islabike stage of parenthood, but I'm curious
what Islabikes have to offer that a decent, properly sized child's bike
with drivetrain removed does not?

Besides avoiding the hassle of removing the drivetrain, of course.

Patrick Moore, whose daughter stole his car, in ABQ, NM

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Leah Peterson]

Mark is right about kids’ bike weight - I learned this the hard way with the 
lemon bomb that was the Giant 20incher I bought Baby Bear. What a punishment it 
was to tackle a hill on that thing. (Heavier than my older son’s Specialized 
Hotrock in 24 inches.) The Giant was so bad I sold it months later and bought 
the Islabike. That bike is long gone as he’s outgrown it, but do check out 
Woom. Woom can take a rack! Huge help if your grandson wants to carry his 
backpack or his picnic lunch. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 4, 2019, at 2:19 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> And to clarify, I don't worry about bike weight, but with kids I think  it 
> can be a negative when a bike ends up to be 35-50% of their body weight.
> 
>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:16:55 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>> Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice bike. 
>> Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They also 
>> tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and brake 
>> levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the WOOM are 
>> worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually remain in 
>> good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And yeah, 
>> Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK. 
>> 
>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:06:24 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>>> Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell 
>>> there and in the EU. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking. 
>>> 
>>> https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories
>>> 
>>> Here's a review of a 20" version for example : 
>>> https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

And to clarify, I don't worry about bike weight, but with kids I think  it 
can be a negative when a bike ends up to be 35-50% of their body weight.

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:16:55 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice bike. 
> Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They also 
> tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and brake 
> levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the WOOM are 
> worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually remain 
> in good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And yeah, 
> Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK. 
>
> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:06:24 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>>
>> Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell 
>> there and in the EU. 
>>
>>
>> Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking. 
>>
>> https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories
>>
>> Here's a review of a 20" version for example : 
>> https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice bike. 
Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They also 
tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and brake 
levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the WOOM are 
worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually remain 
in good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And yeah, 
Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK. 

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:06:24 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
> Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell 
> there and in the EU. 
>
>
> Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking. 
>
> https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories
>
> Here's a review of a 20" version for example : 
> https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[rpeters . vetpath]

Agreed Patrick! We just purchased a very serviceable 24in blue road-ish bike 
Raleigh for my 8 yr son at the local bike shop to keep up with the lot of us. 
It was a 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 4, 2019, at 3:14 PM, 'DeaPatrick' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> Worth noting that while Islabikes are wondrously Rivendelian in their 
> approach to kid's bikes, there are other options that a quite a step above 
> the rest listed in this thread, so if you don't find a used one, they may be 
> worth a go? Enjoy the quest!
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Garth]

Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell 
there and in the EU. 


Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking. 

https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories

Here's a review of a 20" version for example : 
https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/



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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Worth noting that while Islabikes are wondrously Rivendelian in their approach 
to kid's bikes, there are other options that a quite a step above the rest 
listed in this thread, so if you don't find a used one, they may be worth a go? 
Enjoy the quest!

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Daniel M]

I think reading this entire thread may have been worth it for Vlad the Implier. 
I'm gonna think of that every time I ever hear about the better-known Vlad 
every time for the rest of my life. 

Vlad the Impaler: "My enemies will meet their demise when my sword runs through 
their torsos!"
Vlad the Implier: "We have ways of settling our differences which may not be 
entirely beneficial to those who oppose us."

Also: didn't Islabikes go bankrupt at some point relatively recently? If they 
were reorganized or reincarnated by a buyout, it might explain a subsequent 
push to broaden their market in a manner that seems to run counter to their 
originally-stated intentions. They might actually believe that expanding their 
offerings to include more marketable and profitable options will allow them to 
keep selling their original product line alongside.

I am merely speculating on all counts.

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[REC (Roberta)]

Re: Islabikes
 
I expect you might get something here, but if you don't, you might try a post 
at the iBob google groups board.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deborah Coffin]

This post died long ago, but I’m hoping to address all of you who got one of 
these long enough ago that your kids might have outgrown.

If anyone has a red Islabikes Beinn 20S that I could buy, I sure would love to 
find one for my grandson’s 5th birthday this month. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

As a recent purchaser of an Islabikes Beinn 24, I got a promo email in my 
box this morning. The secret is out! Looks like they are ready to take the 
children's pro bike racing circuit by storm! Looks super bad-hiney!

* The Pro Series from Islabikes* 

  Over the last year we’ve secretly been working on a brand new 
range of
  children’s bicycles that takes Islabikes’ reputation for 
proportional and
  holistic design into an even higher realm. Having seen how 
Islabikes 
  owners customize and modify their bikes for competition, we 
decided to
  create the ultimate race bikes for our young riders.

  The result is the Pro Series: a range of bikes that utilize 
all of our cutting
  edge research, design and development from the last ten years 
to create
  the most advanced children’s bikes we've ever put into 
production. With
  proportional custom features such as full carbon-fiber forks, 
our very own
  Islabikes tires and high end components, the Pro Series are 
the ultimate
  children’s race bikes for competitive young riders.

Just figured I'd give all of you looking to mold the next Tejay van 
Garderen or Peter Sagan the heads-up. Get to an "even higher realm." 
(Certainly a higher price realm.) This will save parents from all those 
time-consuming modifications and customizations that Islabikes has been 
watching them make, like whittling down that full size carbon fork to fit 
on their kids' competition bike. 

*This is a public service announcement and is for entertainment purposes 
only. No intolerance of any kind should be implied, only normal opinions, 
along with possibly a smidge of facetiousness and satire of the type 
allowed under the first amendment. If intolerance is implied, it shall be 
solely the responsibility of the implier (even if not named Vlad). Opinions 
differing from the above opinions are permissible and may be expressed 
where allowed by law or in my kitchen if you are visiting. P*
*urchase of a pro series children's bicycle from Islabikes will not impact 
your RBW membership in any way, except to possibly limit your ability to 
purchase a Rivendell any time soon thereafter. Other restrictions may 
apply. Dealer surcharges, titles and taxes not included. Don't be too 
serious, it creates extra wind drag. Enjoy the ride!*

> this thread makes me a little less of a riv fan :p :p
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

Oh c'mon, join in!

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 2:07 AM, Daniel D.  wrote:

> this thread makes me a little less of a riv fan :p :p
>
>
> On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 12:10:50 AM UTC-7, Corwin wrote:
>>
>> Hi Scott -
>>
>> At the outset, I will state - this is only my opinion. You are of course
>> free to buy and/or ride whatever you want.
>>
>> I don't think offering carbon bikes to or for kids is wise or
>> appropriate. In much the same way I do not think offering guns to kids is
>> wise or appropriate. Do I think this is an inappropriate analogy? No.
>>
>> You can make a choice about what risks are appropriate. Kids (and their
>> potentially uninformed parents) cannot make such an informed choice.
>>
>> Am I being intolerant? I don't think so. We made seat-belts in cars
>> mandatory when I was a kid in the 60's. Helmets were recently made
>> mandatory for anyone under 18 in California. Some materials are appropriate
>> for kids and some are not.
>>
>> Carbon fibre used elsewhere (military airframes come to mind) get much
>> more testing than kid's bikes.
>>
>> I have made my opinion known to Islabikes. I will not be purchasing any
>> bikes for my kids, grandkids or great-grandkids from them.
>>
>> At their price-point for carbon-fibre, I think sales will be limited to
>> those that have more money than sense.
>>
>> Namaste,
>>
>>
>>
>> Corwin
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:35:08 PM UTC-7, Skenry wrote:
>>>
>>> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the
>>> type of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering
>>> consumers a choice.
>>>
>>> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities
>>> that some of you preach on about.
>>>
>>> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you
>>> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type
>>> of bike that someone else may want?
>>>
>>> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
>>> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about
 snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who
 should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's
 qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote
 and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay
 at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time:

 There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some
 Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a
 bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now
 offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach
 toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to
 be. Not in the slightest.

 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>
> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like
> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like
> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever,
>
>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .
> Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and
>> "giving customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW 
>> is
>> such a niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles
>> are at the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing
>> certain types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled
>> why you are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people
>> should only ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot
>> have fun on pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me
>>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it.
>>>
>>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they
>>> are making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young 
>>> racer
>>> and offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't
>>> believe that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many
>>> races. Just this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day 
>>> and
>>> there was a kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the 
>>> same
>>> time riding a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on.
>>> Very 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Daniel D.]

this thread makes me a little less of a riv fan :p :p

On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 12:10:50 AM UTC-7, Corwin wrote:
>
> Hi Scott -
>
> At the outset, I will state - this is only my opinion. You are of course 
> free to buy and/or ride whatever you want.
>
> I don't think offering carbon bikes to or for kids is wise or appropriate. 
> In much the same way I do not think offering guns to kids is wise or 
> appropriate. Do I think this is an inappropriate analogy? No.
>
> You can make a choice about what risks are appropriate. Kids (and their 
> potentially uninformed parents) cannot make such an informed choice.
>
> Am I being intolerant? I don't think so. We made seat-belts in cars 
> mandatory when I was a kid in the 60's. Helmets were recently made 
> mandatory for anyone under 18 in California. Some materials are appropriate 
> for kids and some are not.
>
> Carbon fibre used elsewhere (military airframes come to mind) get much 
> more testing than kid's bikes.
>
> I have made my opinion known to Islabikes. I will not be purchasing any 
> bikes for my kids, grandkids or great-grandkids from them.
>
> At their price-point for carbon-fibre, I think sales will be limited to 
> those that have more money than sense.
>
> Namaste,
>
>
>
> Corwin
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:35:08 PM UTC-7, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type 
>> of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
>> consumers a choice.
>>
>> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
>> that some of you preach on about.
>>
>> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you 
>> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type 
>> of bike that someone else may want?
>>
>> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
>> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
>>> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
>>> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
>>> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
>>> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
>>> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 
>>>
>>> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some 
>>> Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a 
>>> bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
>>> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach 
>>> toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
>>> be. Not in the slightest. 
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:

 Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
 swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
 nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 

  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  
 Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   

 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should 
> only 
> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>>
>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer 
>> and 
>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't 
>> believe 
>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. 
>> Just 
>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was 
>> a 
>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time 
>> riding 
>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very 
>> capable 
>> kids. 
>>
>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Corwin]

Hi Scott -

At the outset, I will state - this is only my opinion. You are of course 
free to buy and/or ride whatever you want.

I don't think offering carbon bikes to or for kids is wise or appropriate. 
In much the same way I do not think offering guns to kids is wise or 
appropriate. Do I think this is an inappropriate analogy? No.

You can make a choice about what risks are appropriate. Kids (and their 
potentially uninformed parents) cannot make such an informed choice.

Am I being intolerant? I don't think so. We made seat-belts in cars 
mandatory when I was a kid in the 60's. Helmets were recently made 
mandatory for anyone under 18 in California. Some materials are appropriate 
for kids and some are not.

Carbon fibre used elsewhere (military airframes come to mind) get much more 
testing than kid's bikes.

I have made my opinion known to Islabikes. I will not be purchasing any 
bikes for my kids, grandkids or great-grandkids from them.

At their price-point for carbon-fibre, I think sales will be limited to 
those that have more money than sense.

Namaste,



Corwin

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:35:08 PM UTC-7, Skenry wrote:
>
> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type 
> of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
> consumers a choice.
>
> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
> that some of you preach on about.
>
> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you want?  
> But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type of bike 
> that someone else may want?
>
> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
>> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
>> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
>> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
>> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
>> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 
>>
>> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some Riv-like 
>> qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a bike 
>> from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
>> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach 
>> toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
>> be. Not in the slightest. 
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>>>
>>> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
>>> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
>>> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 
>>>
>>>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  
>>> Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:

 And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
 customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
 niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
 the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
 types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
 are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only 
 ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
 pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)


 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>
> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>
> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer 
> and 
> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. 
> Just 
> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time 
> riding 
> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
> kids. 
>
> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

The underlying philosophy of the Sam remains what it was, incarnated
permanently in carefully lugged steel. Beats me - I live in a less fluid
universe, apparently.

Well, we'll go back to Garth and say that "one person's perspective is as
good as another['s]", using this phrase as a provisional settlement to the
matter.

Patrick Moore, who has owned 5 Rivendells and still owns 2 of them, and who
likes the Doors and Beethoven, even though Jim and Ludovicus were assholes.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 6:38 PM, kielsun  wrote:

> My Sam would change for me because part of what I love about it are the
> underlying philosophy and ideas. The unparalleled ride is number one, but
> the other stuff matters, too.
>
> To give a non-bike-related metaphor: a few years back I got the chance to
> play a couple of shows with one of my favorite musicians/songwriters. He
> was a jerk with women and was generally not a nice guy. Did his songs about
> love and humanity and tenderness and mean as much to me afterwards?
> Hardly--I never listen to his music anymore.
>
> So the fact that the OP's views of Islabikes changed when she found out
> about this other side of their corporate identity makes total sense to me.
> And again, it makes even better sense to me that the idea of CF kids' bikes
> falls flatter than flat to most listers.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[kielsun]

My Sam would change for me because part of what I love about it are the 
underlying philosophy and ideas. The unparalleled ride is number one, but the 
other stuff matters, too.

To give a non-bike-related metaphor: a few years back I got the chance to play 
a couple of shows with one of my favorite musicians/songwriters. He was a jerk 
with women and was generally not a nice guy. Did his songs about love and 
humanity and tenderness and mean as much to me afterwards? Hardly--I never 
listen to his music anymore.

So the fact that the OP's views of Islabikes changed when she found out about 
this other side of their corporate identity makes total sense to me. And again, 
it makes even better sense to me that the idea of CF kids' bikes falls flatter 
than flat to most listers.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

If Grant designed a CF bicycle, I for one would be very interested in it
(assuming I could afford it, which is unlikely). Why? Because a
Rivendell-desiged CF bike would be a very nice riding and sturdy, and very
likely good looking bike. As the RR itself (via Bontrager) said in a long
ago article, material is the least important factor in frame design. Don't
let's confuse CF with silly design. Your Sam would remain exactly the same
as it was before.

Not that there is a snowball's chance in hell of Rivendell ever using CF.

Patrick Moore, who has no ideological animus against CF or any other frame
material.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 5:35 PM, kielsun  wrote:

> I'm zero percent surprised that CF kids' bikes don't get a warm welcome on
> this list. We gather here because of our love for or interest in Rivendell
> Bicycles--lugged steel frames for everyday use that are intended to grow in
> beauty through usage. CF bikes in general are the opposite of that. Whether
> or not that statement stems from drinking Riv-Koolaid doesn't matter to me
> in the least.
>
> How would we all feel if Grant's next Blug post was all about the
> brand-new, CF-forked, super lightweight pro line of Rivendells? I'd
> probably be pretty bummed and my Sam would lose a bit of its luster. Seems
> like the OP's reaction is pretty similar. The company marketed itself one
> way and is now doing something quite different.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[kielsun]

I'm zero percent surprised that CF kids' bikes don't get a warm welcome on this 
list. We gather here because of our love for or interest in Rivendell 
Bicycles--lugged steel frames for everyday use that are intended to grow in 
beauty through usage. CF bikes in general are the opposite of that. Whether or 
not that statement stems from drinking Riv-Koolaid doesn't matter to me in the 
least. 

How would we all feel if Grant's next Blug post was all about the brand-new, 
CF-forked, super lightweight pro line of Rivendells? I'd probably be pretty 
bummed and my Sam would lose a bit of its luster. Seems like the OP's reaction 
is pretty similar. The company marketed itself one way and is now doing 
something quite different.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

This is a funny thing to say on a Rivendell list. I do believe in list
criticism instead of total Koolaid, but, I'm almost *(almost)* inclined to
agree with Garth for once. *(Almost.)*

Sure, I think some Rivendell things are overpriced for the value given and
the quality of cheaper alternatives, but OTOH, there is little doubt that
Rivendell does offer things that are quite worth the money, and consistent
ride quality of a certain sort is one of them. I sold 1 Rivendell because I
really didn't like it (Sam Hill, pavement, loaded), but even that bike had
certain very good handling qualities and, did it take wider tires, I'd
probably not now own a custom off road bike.

Although I have no appetite for some of Rivendell's product line (and a
great one for certain others), I have to say that Grant seems to have been
pretty consistent with his *dictum* of almost 20 years ago: "We are product
driven, not market driven

I decided to go back to the original post (learn the context at least after
you make your assertions) and saw Leah's consternation about CF and
aluminum. I have to say that I agree that these products very definitely
fall under the snob element, or at least excessively doting parent elements
("It's plain gauge, seamed, low carbon steel for you, ya wee bastert") --
after all, if children will certainly care about fit and ease of riding,
their standards are pretty basic.

Still and all, if a company used cf or aluminum to make a light, sturdy,
reasonably priced kids' bike, why not? It's just that $2500 for an 8 year
old is -- well, not a good sign, IMO.

But Isla still makes their little steel models, so all is not lost.

Patrick "adding my $0.02 to this rather strange conversation" Moore


On 05/28/2016 06:36 PM, Trenker wrote:
>
 I think when someone talks about “the ride” of a Rivendell they are
> showing some consumerism and elitism because the ride of a bike depends
> mainly on the tires and the fit of the bike.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Garth]

DP, one persons perspective here is as valuable as another, regardless .

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[masmojo]

You know honestly I am just as dumbfounded as Skenry! 
I think the original feelings expressed were ones of betrayal; they bought a 
bike that suited their needs, but the company introduces a bike that suits the 
needs of someone else, a bike that they take some objection too because of what 
it's made out of!? As I understand it they still make the other bikes that they 
liked, they've just expanded their offerings,  not sure why that's a problem!? 
Don't like carbon fiber? Fine don't buy it! Don't think the company should sell 
CF bikes? Fine, buy the company and discontinue them. But, otherwise it's 
presumptuous to enforce your values on them.
There's the old saying that money talks & BS walks. Obviously, customers 
expressed a desire to buy expensive kids "racing" bike, they are merely 
fulfilling that need! Good for them! If they hadn't someone else would have!
Incidentally, if you read the Blug regularly Grant has expressed a desire to 
build bikes for kids, I believe he back burnered the idea due to cost concerns. 
 I believe he was working on that about the time he was working on the 
development of the Clems.
After the tandems and Roscoe Bubbes are done maybe he will try again!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[stonehog]

Scott - please don't lump a whole list of us into those you don't agree 
with on one thread.  Of the bicycle groups I've been observing, this is one 
of the most open minded and educated.  :)  

And thanks for pointing out there are good things to be found in other 
bikes, too.

Brian Hanson
Seattle, WA
www.stonehog.com

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 10:45:51 AM UTC-7, Skenry wrote:
>
> Deacon, 
> You might want to read some of  and others posts.  
>
> It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and 
> no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED 
> their offerings.
>
> How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly 
> with me.
>
> Choice is a good thing.   
> Options are good things.
>
> I expected more from this list.
> On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  
> wrote:
>
>> Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of 
>> the words is intolerant or single-minded.
>>
>> In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both 
>> companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was 
>> very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my 
>> decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything 
>> resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and 
>> foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying 
>> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>>
>>> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the 
>>> type of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
>>> consumers a choice.
>>>
>>> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
>>> that some of you preach on about.
>>>
>>> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you 
>>> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type 
>>> of bike that someone else may want?
>>>
>>> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
>>> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
 snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
 should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
 qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
 and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
 at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 

 There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some 
 Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased 
 a 
 bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
 offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this 
 approach 
 toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
 be. Not in the slightest. 

 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>
> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 
>
>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  
> Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and 
>> "giving customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW 
>> is 
>> such a niche company is that the majority of people shopping for 
>> bicycles 
>> are at the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing 
>> certain types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled 
>> why you are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people 
>> should only ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot 
>> have fun on pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
>>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>>>
>>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they 
>>> are making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young 
>>> racer 
>>> and offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't 
>>> believe that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many 
>>> races. Just this past weekend I 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deacon Patrick]

Trenker, could you please apply your thinking to yourself and get back with 
us? Read your second sentence aloud. Then read your last two paragraphs 
aloud.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:36:55 PM UTC-6, Trenker wrote:
>
>
> I think that Skenry makes some valid points. If the idea is to “just 
> ride,” then who cares what kind of bike someone else chooses? 
>
>
> Rivendells are really nice bikes. They are sturdy and good-looking and 
> made to last. They are also expensive. I think when you buy something 
> expensive there is a tendency to give it great reviews because it cost so 
> much; for example, I got a pair of expensive shoes for weddings/funerals, 
> and I felt great when I wore them. They even seemed to fit extremely well. 
> But the cost of a shoe doesn’t have anything to do with how well it fits. I 
> think when someone talks about “the ride” of a Rivendell they are showing 
> some consumerism and elitism because the ride of a bike depends mainly on 
> the tires and the fit of the bike. 
>
>
> Re. a kid’s bike by Rivendell: There was an aborted attempt at one once, 
> and it was going to be called Rosco Bubbe. Or maybe it was Bosco Rubbe at 
> the time.  It would have been a nice bike, but I don’t think kids need an 
> expensive bike, and I don’t think most kids are going to ride a bike with a 
> semi-ironic name like Roscoe Bubbe. Kids are very attuned to what their 
> peers are using and they like bikes that are sporty and give an impression 
> of speed. A great bike for kids is the bmx bike, they are still popular and 
> are generally fun to ride, simple and durable. 
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2016 06:36 PM, Trenker wrote:


I think that Skenry makes some valid points. If the idea is to “just 
ride,” then who cares what kind of bike someone else chooses?



Rivendells are really nice bikes. They are sturdy and good-looking and 
made to last. They are also expensive. I think when you buy something 
expensive there is a tendency to give it great reviews because it cost 
so much; for example, I got a pair of expensive shoes for 
weddings/funerals, and I felt great when I wore them. They even seemed 
to fit extremely well. But the cost of a shoe doesn’t have anything to 
do with how well it fits. I think when someone talks about “the ride” 
of a Rivendell they are showing some consumerism and elitism because 
the ride of a bike depends mainly on the tires and the fit of the bike.




Geometry doesn't matter?  I don't think so.  I'm not sure what you mean 
by "ride" is what everybody else means by the term.   Neither the tires 
nor the fit of the bike will influence how the bike turns or how stable 
or maneuverable it feels.   And I think you're wrong about "consumerism" 
and "elitism" in this context:  Bleriots ride like Rivendells.  This is 
beyond dispute.  And yet, the Bleriot was relatively inexpensive, and 
hardly an "elitist" product as we understand "elitist".  The same can be 
said for the Romulus, the low end no-frills Rambouillet.   Yes these 
were not five hundred dollar department store bikes, but they surely 
weren't high-end bikes for the elite either.  And the ride was instantly 
identifiable as "Rivendell" and stayed that way no matter whether you 
were using low end or high end tires, or whether the bike was a great 
fit or not.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Trenker]

I think that Skenry makes some valid points. If the idea is to “just ride,” 
then who cares what kind of bike someone else chooses? 


Rivendells are really nice bikes. They are sturdy and good-looking and made 
to last. They are also expensive. I think when you buy something expensive 
there is a tendency to give it great reviews because it cost so much; for 
example, I got a pair of expensive shoes for weddings/funerals, and I felt 
great when I wore them. They even seemed to fit extremely well. But the 
cost of a shoe doesn’t have anything to do with how well it fits. I think 
when someone talks about “the ride” of a Rivendell they are showing some 
consumerism and elitism because the ride of a bike depends mainly on the 
tires and the fit of the bike. 


Re. a kid’s bike by Rivendell: There was an aborted attempt at one once, 
and it was going to be called Rosco Bubbe. Or maybe it was Bosco Rubbe at 
the time.  It would have been a nice bike, but I don’t think kids need an 
expensive bike, and I don’t think most kids are going to ride a bike with a 
semi-ironic name like Roscoe Bubbe. Kids are very attuned to what their 
peers are using and they like bikes that are sporty and give an impression 
of speed. A great bike for kids is the bmx bike, they are still popular and 
are generally fun to ride, simple and durable. 





 
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deacon Patrick]

A black Clementine may be just the ticket, Leah. Our two eldest are growing 
wonderfully into their mediums (we're hoping that size will fit them as 
their "forever" bike), but a small clementine in black or orange. I'll be 
doing a Continental Divide criss-cross bikepacking  trip with my two eldest 
this summer. Or is the whole "girls bike" think a barrier?

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 1:29:40 PM UTC-6, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> As a side note, maybe Grant is listening and will have mercy on those of 
> us looking for Riv-esque bikes for our kids. He's been extending his 
> offerings with his Clem and his Rosco and his Hubbah Hubbah. Why not a bike 
> for bigger kids? Is it feasible to make a 24 and 26 inch bike with one of 
> the Rosco forks? I'd be very happy to continue with my extreme prejudice 
> for all things Rivendell, if given the chance. I've got a boy needing a 
> bike next year!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Leah Peterson]

As a side note, maybe Grant is listening and will have mercy on those of us 
looking for Riv-esque bikes for our kids. He's been extending his offerings 
with his Clem and his Rosco and his Hubbah Hubbah. Why not a bike for bigger 
kids? Is it feasible to make a 24 and 26 inch bike with one of the Rosco forks? 
I'd be very happy to continue with my extreme prejudice for all things 
Rivendell, if given the chance. I've got a boy needing a bike next year!

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 28, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Scott Henry  wrote:
> 
> Let us all just try to be a little more open minded.
> 
> There is a huge difference in saying I don't like a certain bicycle company 
> because... and saying I like all bicycles because...
> 
> Try to be positive cyclists and embrace the activity in its entirety.
> 
> I guess I thought that you all being cyclists that you liked rivendell and 
> bicycling overall.
> So, my initial response to your use of the word "intolerant," Scott, should 
> have been:
> 
> Yes. People are expressing an intolerance in this thread. That is a good 
> thing. I am intolerant of mass produced beer, whisky from anywhere but Islay, 
> bikes made of materials that fail without warning, companies that objectify 
> their customers and see them more as dollars than as people, spoiled milk, 
> rotten eggs, and a whole lot of other things. You keep expressing intolerance 
> for intolerances expressed in this thread as disappointment in the group and 
> in the people. To me, that says a lot about you and very little about the 
> group or the people in this thread.
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>> Skenry, personal choice and discernment about a product or company doesn't 
>> even enter the realm of requiring tolerance and actually rightly exercises 
>> intolerance all the time. Though I suspect we have differing definitions. 
>> For reference my understanding of tolerance/intolerance is beautifully 
>> expressed by Bishop Fulton Sheen:
>> 
>> “Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance 
>> that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance 
>> applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, 
>> intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as 
>> foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the 
>> laboratory.
>> 
>> Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must 
>> be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us 
>> from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the 
>> foundation of all stability.”
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Having an intolerance for various qualities in a product is a part of 
>> customer choice. So, is this "intolerance" as in the PC use of the word that 
>> means "bigoted, wrongly judgmental"? No. Is it intolerance of qualities in a 
>> product and choices of a company? Absolutely. That part of the virtue of the 
>> free market. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> With abandon,
>> 
>> Patrick
>> 
>> 
>>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>> Deacon, 
>>> You might want to read some of  and others posts. 
>>> 
>>> It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and 
>>> no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED 
>>> their offerings.
>>> 
>>> How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly 
>>> with me.
>>> 
>>> Choice is a good thing.   
>>> Options are good things.
>>> 
>>> I expected more from this list.
>>> 
 On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  wrote:
 Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of 
 the words is intolerant or single-minded.
 
 In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both 
 companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was 
 very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my 
 decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything 
 resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and 
 foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying 
 principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
 
 With abandon,
 Patrick
 
 
 
 
 
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type 
> of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
> consumers a choice.
> 
> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
> that some of you preach on about.
> 
> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you want? 
>  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type of 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

Let us all just try to be a little more open minded.

There is a huge difference in saying I don't like a certain bicycle company
because... and saying I like all bicycles because...

Try to be positive cyclists and embrace the activity in its entirety.

I guess I thought that you all being cyclists that you liked rivendell and
bicycling overall.
So, my initial response to your use of the word "intolerant," Scott, should
have been:

Yes. People are expressing an intolerance in this thread. That is a good
thing. I am intolerant of mass produced beer, whisky from anywhere but
Islay, bikes made of materials that fail without warning, companies that
objectify their customers and see them more as dollars than as people,
spoiled milk, rotten eggs, and a whole lot of other things. You keep
expressing intolerance for intolerances expressed in this thread as
disappointment in the group and in the people. To me, that says a lot about
you and very little about the group or the people in this thread.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Skenry, personal choice and discernment about a product or company doesn't
> even enter the realm of requiring tolerance and actually rightly exercises
> intolerance all the time. Though I suspect we have differing definitions.
> For reference my understanding of tolerance/intolerance is beautifully
> expressed by Bishop Fulton Sheen:
>
> “Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance
> that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance
> applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring,
> intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as
> foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the
> laboratory.
>
> Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we
> must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to
> rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is
> the foundation of all stability.”
>
>
> Having an intolerance for various qualities in a product is a part of
> customer choice. So, is this "intolerance" as in the PC use of the word
> that means "bigoted, wrongly judgmental"? No. Is it intolerance of
> qualities in a product and choices of a company? Absolutely. That part of
> the virtue of the free market.
>
>
> With abandon,
>
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> Deacon,
>> You might want to read some of  and others posts.
>>
>> It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and
>> no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED
>> their offerings.
>>
>> How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly
>> with me.
>>
>> Choice is a good thing.
>> Options are good things.
>>
>> I expected more from this list.
>> On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  wrote:
>>
>>> Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of
>>> the words is intolerant or single-minded.
>>>
>>> In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both
>>> companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was
>>> very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my
>>> decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything
>>> resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and
>>> foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying
>>> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:

 And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the
 type of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering
 consumers a choice.

 Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities
 that some of you preach on about.

 So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you
 want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type
 of bike that someone else may want?

 Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
 On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about
> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who
> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's
> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote
> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay
> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time:
>
> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some
> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

The dictionary say intolerance is unwillingness to accept views, beliefs,
or behavior that differ from one's own.

Yep.
On May 28, 2016 2:27 PM, "Deacon Patrick"  wrote:

> So, my initial response to your use of the word "intolerant," Scott,
> should have been:
>
> Yes. People are expressing an intolerance in this thread. That is a good
> thing. I am intolerant of mass produced beer, whisky from anywhere but
> Islay, bikes made of materials that fail without warning, companies that
> objectify their customers and see them more as dollars than as people,
> spoiled milk, rotten eggs, and a whole lot of other things. You keep
> expressing intolerance for intolerances expressed in this thread as
> disappointment in the group and in the people. To me, that says a lot about
> you and very little about the group or the people in this thread.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Skenry, personal choice and discernment about a product or company
>> doesn't even enter the realm of requiring tolerance and actually rightly
>> exercises intolerance all the time. Though I suspect we have differing
>> definitions. For reference my understanding of tolerance/intolerance is
>> beautifully expressed by Bishop Fulton Sheen:
>>
>> “Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a
>> forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment.
>> Tolerance applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to
>> the erring, intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about
>> sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs
>> in the laboratory.
>>
>> Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we
>> must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to
>> rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is
>> the foundation of all stability.”
>>
>>
>> Having an intolerance for various qualities in a product is a part of
>> customer choice. So, is this "intolerance" as in the PC use of the word
>> that means "bigoted, wrongly judgmental"? No. Is it intolerance of
>> qualities in a product and choices of a company? Absolutely. That part of
>> the virtue of the free market.
>>
>>
>> With abandon,
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>>
>>> Deacon,
>>> You might want to read some of  and others posts.
>>>
>>> It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before,
>>> and no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they
>>> EXPANDED their offerings.
>>>
>>> How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't
>>> fly with me.
>>>
>>> Choice is a good thing.
>>> Options are good things.
>>>
>>> I expected more from this list.
>>> On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  wrote:
>>>
 Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use
 of the words is intolerant or single-minded.

 In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both
 companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was
 very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my
 decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything
 resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and
 foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying
 principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."

 With abandon,
 Patrick





 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>
> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the
> type of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering
> consumers a choice.
>
> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv
> qualities that some of you preach on about.
>
> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you
> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type
> of bike that someone else may want?
>
> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about
>> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who
>> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's
>> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote
>> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay
>> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time:
>>
>> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some
>> Riv-like qualities and a similar 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deacon Patrick]

So, my initial response to your use of the word "intolerant," Scott, should 
have been:

Yes. People are expressing an intolerance in this thread. That is a good 
thing. I am intolerant of mass produced beer, whisky from anywhere but 
Islay, bikes made of materials that fail without warning, companies that 
objectify their customers and see them more as dollars than as people, 
spoiled milk, rotten eggs, and a whole lot of other things. You keep 
expressing intolerance for intolerances expressed in this thread as 
disappointment in the group and in the people. To me, that says a lot about 
you and very little about the group or the people in this thread.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Skenry, personal choice and discernment about a product or company doesn't 
> even enter the realm of requiring tolerance and actually rightly exercises 
> intolerance all the time. Though I suspect we have differing definitions. 
> For reference my understanding of tolerance/intolerance is beautifully 
> expressed by Bishop Fulton Sheen:
>
> “Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance 
> that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance 
> applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, 
> intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as 
> foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the 
> laboratory.
>
> Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we 
> must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to 
> rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is 
> the foundation of all stability.”
>
>
> Having an intolerance for various qualities in a product is a part of 
> customer choice. So, is this "intolerance" as in the PC use of the word 
> that means "bigoted, wrongly judgmental"? No. Is it intolerance of 
> qualities in a product and choices of a company? Absolutely. That part of 
> the virtue of the free market. 
>
>
> With abandon,
>
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> Deacon, 
>> You might want to read some of  and others posts.  
>>
>> It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and 
>> no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED 
>> their offerings.
>>
>> How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly 
>> with me.
>>
>> Choice is a good thing.   
>> Options are good things.
>>
>> I expected more from this list.
>> On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  wrote:
>>
>>> Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of 
>>> the words is intolerant or single-minded.
>>>
>>> In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both 
>>> companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was 
>>> very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my 
>>> decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything 
>>> resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and 
>>> foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying 
>>> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:

 And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the 
 type of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
 consumers a choice.

 Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
 that some of you preach on about.

 So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you 
 want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type 
 of bike that someone else may want?

 Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
 On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 
>
> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some 
> Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased 
> a 
> bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this 
> approach 
> toward making and selling bicycles. I 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deacon Patrick]

Skenry, personal choice and discernment about a product or company doesn't 
even enter the realm of requiring tolerance and actually rightly exercises 
intolerance all the time. Though I suspect we have differing definitions. 
For reference my understanding of tolerance/intolerance is beautifully 
expressed by Bishop Fulton Sheen:

“Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance 
that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance 
applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, 
intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as 
foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the 
laboratory.

Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must 
be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us 
from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the 
foundation of all stability.”


Having an intolerance for various qualities in a product is a part of 
customer choice. So, is this "intolerance" as in the PC use of the word 
that means "bigoted, wrongly judgmental"? No. Is it intolerance of 
qualities in a product and choices of a company? Absolutely. That part of 
the virtue of the free market. 


With abandon,

Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:45:51 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>
> Deacon, 
> You might want to read some of  and others posts.  
>
> It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and 
> no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED 
> their offerings.
>
> How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly 
> with me.
>
> Choice is a good thing.   
> Options are good things.
>
> I expected more from this list.
> On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  
> wrote:
>
>> Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of 
>> the words is intolerant or single-minded.
>>
>> In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both 
>> companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was 
>> very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my 
>> decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything 
>> resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and 
>> foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying 
>> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>>
>>> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the 
>>> type of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
>>> consumers a choice.
>>>
>>> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
>>> that some of you preach on about.
>>>
>>> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you 
>>> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type 
>>> of bike that someone else may want?
>>>
>>> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
>>> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
 snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
 should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
 qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
 and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
 at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 

 There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some 
 Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased 
 a 
 bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
 offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this 
 approach 
 toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
 be. Not in the slightest. 

 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>
> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 
>
>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  
> Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and 
>> "giving customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW 
>> is 
>> such a niche company is that the majority of people shopping for 
>> bicycles 
>> are at the mercy 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

Deacon,
You might want to read some of  and others posts.

It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and
no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED
their offerings.

How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly
with me.

Choice is a good thing.
Options are good things.

I expected more from this list.
On May 28, 2016 10:09 AM, "Deacon Patrick"  wrote:

> Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of
> the words is intolerant or single-minded.
>
> In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both
> companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was
> very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my
> decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything
> resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and
> foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying
> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type
>> of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering
>> consumers a choice.
>>
>> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities
>> that some of you preach on about.
>>
>> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you
>> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type
>> of bike that someone else may want?
>>
>> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
>> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about
>>> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who
>>> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's
>>> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote
>>> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay
>>> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time:
>>>
>>> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some
>>> Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a
>>> bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now
>>> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach
>>> toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to
>>> be. Not in the slightest.
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:

 Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like
 swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like
 nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever,

  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .
 Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".

 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving
> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a
> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at
> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain
> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you
> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only
> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on
> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me
>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it.
>>
>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are
>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer 
>> and
>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe
>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. 
>> Just
>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a
>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time 
>> riding
>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable
>> kids.
>>
>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deacon Patrick]

Excellent point, Lynne. For us, longer rides needing water, racks, etc, are 
done via the cargo bike until they are big enough for the Meerkat. At that 
point, we'll have to use a clamp on rack system and water bottle. But on 
the smaller bikes, we decided the room, weight, and need just weren't 
there. Our third daughter is about a year away from being able to bikepack 
on short S24Os, so that will be a good "problem" to have come next winter 
to occupy me. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:27:58 AM UTC-6, Lynne Fitz wrote:
>
> Doing a quick compare of the offerings of the two companies - Pro series 
> aside, Islabike has provision to add fenders and racks, as well as water 
> bottle cages.  Cleary appears to have none of that.  (two grandsons getting 
> bigger; I look into these things as well)
>

-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Lynne Fitz]

Doing a quick compare of the offerings of the two companies - Pro series 
aside, Islabike has provision to add fenders and racks, as well as water 
bottle cages.  Cleary appears to have none of that.  (two grandsons getting 
bigger; I look into these things as well)

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 7:09:14 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of 
> the words is intolerant or single-minded.
>
> In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both 
> companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was 
> very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my 
> decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything 
> resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and 
> foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying 
> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type 
>> of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
>> consumers a choice.
>>
>> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
>> that some of you preach on about.
>>
>> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you 
>> want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type 
>> of bike that someone else may want?
>>
>> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
>> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
>>> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
>>> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
>>> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
>>> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
>>> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 
>>>
>>> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some 
>>> Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a 
>>> bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
>>> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach 
>>> toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
>>> be. Not in the slightest. 
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:

 Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
 swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
 nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 

  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  
 Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   

 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should 
> only 
> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>>
>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer 
>> and 
>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't 
>> believe 
>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. 
>> Just 
>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was 
>> a 
>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time 
>> riding 
>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very 
>> capable 
>> kids. 
>>
>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at 

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Deacon Patrick]

Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of 
the words is intolerant or single-minded.

In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both 
companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was 
very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my 
decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything 
resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and 
foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying 
principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."

With abandon,
Patrick





On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:35:08 PM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>
> And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type 
> of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering 
> consumers a choice.
>
> Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities 
> that some of you preach on about.
>
> So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you want?  
> But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type of bike 
> that someone else may want?
>
> Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
> On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about 
>> snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who 
>> should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's 
>> qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote 
>> and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay 
>> at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 
>>
>> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some Riv-like 
>> qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a bike 
>> from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
>> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach 
>> toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
>> be. Not in the slightest. 
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>>>
>>> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
>>> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
>>> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 
>>>
>>>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  
>>> Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:

 And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
 customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
 niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
 the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
 types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
 are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only 
 ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
 pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)


 On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>
> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>
> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer 
> and 
> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. 
> Just 
> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time 
> riding 
> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
> kids. 
>
> -- 
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type
of bike that you are referring to. All they are doing is offering
consumers a choice.

Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities
that some of you preach on about.

So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you want?
But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type of bike
that someone else may want?

Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.
On May 27, 2016 5:26 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about snobbery
> or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who should or
> should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's qualifications for
> being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote and the reason for
> my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay at Islabikes is not
> clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time:
>
> There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some Riv-like
> qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a bike
> from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now
> offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach
> toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to
> be. Not in the slightest.
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>>
>> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like
>> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like
>> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever,
>>
>>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .
>> Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>>
>>> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving
>>> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a
>>> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at
>>> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain
>>> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you
>>> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only
>>> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on
>>> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:

 There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me
 check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it.

 I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are
 making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and
 offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe
 that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just
 this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a
 kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding
 a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable
 kids.

 --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about snobbery 
or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who should or 
should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's qualifications for 
being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote and the reason for 
my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay at Islabikes is not 
clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time: 

There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some Riv-like 
qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a bike 
from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now 
offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach 
toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to 
be. Not in the slightest. 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:30:26 PM UTC-4, Daniel D. wrote:
>
> Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like 
> swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like 
> nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 
>
>  But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all . 
>  Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
>> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
>> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
>> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
>> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
>> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only 
>> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
>> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
>>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>>>
>>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
>>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and 
>>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
>>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just 
>>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
>>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding 
>>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
>>> kids. 
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Daniel D.]

Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like swedish 
axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like nice bags, 
I like the best bike shop experience ever, 

 But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all . 
 Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:56:27 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only 
> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>>
>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and 
>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just 
>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding 
>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
>> kids. 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[RJM]

Maybe Grant needs to make some kids bikes then.

 But, it seems that Islaybikes are also making the bikes you seek along 
with a line of bikes more performance oriented for those seeking such. 
Choices are good and in today's bike marketplace, there are a ton of them. 
I just fail to see how offering both is that big of a deal. 



As to questioning why I'm on this list... I've owned 4 rivs and still have 
two; even bought and sold stuff to list members. I've even purchased 
a Gransfors Bruks hatchet and two copies of "Just Ride" and even gave one 
away so it isn't like I don't know what Rivendell is about. 

But...

I also started racing and appreciate nice race bikes and understand why 
people do it and actually enjoy doing it. Liking these two aspects of 
riding don't have to be mutually exclusive and I certainly see room for 
both. I also don't agree with Riv on carbon forks or carbon bikes, nor on 
lycra or disc brakes...but I don't have to agree with everything Rivendell 
stands for to enjoy the bikes nor the list. I don't have to choose just one 
"philosophy" when I can enjoy all of it. 




On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 1:56:27 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:

> From my first post in this thread:
>
>
>> *I understand there are arguments for the existence of these things--hey, 
>> if you have the money and you want the "best" why not? Hey, life is 
>> competition, give the kid an edge. Hey, why not emulate your "heroes. ...*
>
>  
>
>> *It goes without saying that this is strictly my point of view. *
>>
>
> But since you never heard of the company until today I am going to assume 
> you are also not familiar with its original approach to kid's bikes, that 
> may be why you don't understand why at least a couple of us who bought 
> bicycles from them recently might feel betrayed or disappointed by this 
> latest direction of "pro" bicycles for 4-year-olds. From Why Islabikes:
>
> *It’s easy to be tempted by the latest technology on adult bikes and the 
>> ideas that often unnecessarily trickle down to kids’ bikes. Isla focuses on 
>> the sort of advantages that make riding easier and more pleasurable*
>>
>> *The reputation of an Islabike helps maintain high resale value. A bike 
>> designed with an emphasis on making the whole ride experience easier and 
>> safer will never have the cheapest price tag, however, the ideal fit, 
>> durability, ease of maintenance, and desirability of an Islabike ensure 
>> retention of value. *
>>
>
> Sound at all like the ethos embodied by another bicycle company you've 
> heard of? (Note that the "retention of value" to this point does not yet 
> include the new pro line, which is still in the pre-order phase.) Sound at 
> all like they will need to change this little blurb with the advent of the 
> "Pro Series"?
>
>  As I also said earlier, if I had known this was Islabikes take on things, 
> I had several other choices in terms of companies that sell decent kids 
> bikes to choose from and might well have gone another way. So you see, it's 
> partly the context here, which should be clear enough. And by that I mean 
> both the scenario outlined above and the fact that this is a forum that, at 
> least loosely, is based on the idea of celebrating a philosophy of "just 
> ride," of practical bicycles not limited by the parameters of modern day 
> pro level machines. No doubt there are many places on the Internet to 
> celebrate carbon fiber racing bicycles designed for kids 4-12 years old.
>
> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only 
> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me 
>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>>
>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and 
>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just 
>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding 
>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
>> kids. 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

I'm on this list because I like bicycles.All of them, not just bikes
that Grant markets.   He does contract out some pretty ones, but I like all
bikes.   My stable starts with a 1958 Schwinn and goes straight thru to a
2015 Haanjo cross.   There are bikes of steel, aluminum and carbon, I've
sold a ti.They all ride different, but they are all fine bikes designed
for different tasks.   I have a quickbeam, its pretty and it does what it
is designed to do.

Sometimes I wonder how many on this list in particular have ever ridden a
carbon bike.  They really aren't that bad and they certainly aren't that
dangerous.I can't see how it will hurt their 'retention of value' in
the least.
Ideal fit, durability and ease of maintenance is really just marketing
verbiage.   Its a bicycle: fit comes from offering sizes, bikes are durable
by design and ease of maintenance - there are 12 year olds building these
things in asia, they aren't that complicated.



On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 2:56 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> From my first post in this thread:
>
>
>> *I understand there are arguments for the existence of these things--hey,
>> if you have the money and you want the "best" why not? Hey, life is
>> competition, give the kid an edge. Hey, why not emulate your "heroes. ...*
>
>
>
>> *It goes without saying that this is strictly my point of view. *
>>
>
> But since you never heard of the company until today I am going to assume
> you are also not familiar with its original approach to kid's bikes, that
> may be why you don't understand why at least a couple of us who bought
> bicycles from them recently might feel betrayed or disappointed by this
> latest direction of "pro" bicycles for 4-year-olds. From Why Islabikes:
>
> *It’s easy to be tempted by the latest technology on adult bikes and the
>> ideas that often unnecessarily trickle down to kids’ bikes. Isla focuses on
>> the sort of advantages that make riding easier and more pleasurable*
>>
>> *The reputation of an Islabike helps maintain high resale value. A bike
>> designed with an emphasis on making the whole ride experience easier and
>> safer will never have the cheapest price tag, however, the ideal fit,
>> durability, ease of maintenance, and desirability of an Islabike ensure
>> retention of value. *
>>
>
> Sound at all like the ethos embodied by another bicycle company you've
> heard of? (Note that the "retention of value" to this point does not yet
> include the new pro line, which is still in the pre-order phase.) Sound at
> all like they will need to change this little blurb with the advent of the
> "Pro Series"?
>
>  As I also said earlier, if I had known this was Islabikes take on things,
> I had several other choices in terms of companies that sell decent kids
> bikes to choose from and might well have gone another way. So you see, it's
> partly the context here, which should be clear enough. And by that I mean
> both the scenario outlined above and the fact that this is a forum that, at
> least loosely, is based on the idea of celebrating a philosophy of "just
> ride," of practical bicycles not limited by the parameters of modern day
> pro level machines. No doubt there are many places on the Internet to
> celebrate carbon fiber racing bicycles designed for kids 4-12 years old.
>
> And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving
> customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a
> niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at
> the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain
> types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you
> are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only
> ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on
> pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me
>> check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it.
>>
>> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are
>> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and
>> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe
>> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just
>> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a
>> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding
>> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable
>> kids.
>>
>> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

>From my first post in this thread:


> *I understand there are arguments for the existence of these things--hey, 
> if you have the money and you want the "best" why not? Hey, life is 
> competition, give the kid an edge. Hey, why not emulate your "heroes. ...*

 

> *It goes without saying that this is strictly my point of view. *
>

But since you never heard of the company until today I am going to assume 
you are also not familiar with its original approach to kid's bikes, that 
may be why you don't understand why at least a couple of us who bought 
bicycles from them recently might feel betrayed or disappointed by this 
latest direction of "pro" bicycles for 4-year-olds. From Why Islabikes:

*It’s easy to be tempted by the latest technology on adult bikes and the 
> ideas that often unnecessarily trickle down to kids’ bikes. Isla focuses on 
> the sort of advantages that make riding easier and more pleasurable*
>
> *The reputation of an Islabike helps maintain high resale value. A bike 
> designed with an emphasis on making the whole ride experience easier and 
> safer will never have the cheapest price tag, however, the ideal fit, 
> durability, ease of maintenance, and desirability of an Islabike ensure 
> retention of value. *
>

Sound at all like the ethos embodied by another bicycle company you've 
heard of? (Note that the "retention of value" to this point does not yet 
include the new pro line, which is still in the pre-order phase.) Sound at 
all like they will need to change this little blurb with the advent of the 
"Pro Series"?

 As I also said earlier, if I had known this was Islabikes take on things, 
I had several other choices in terms of companies that sell decent kids 
bikes to choose from and might well have gone another way. So you see, it's 
partly the context here, which should be clear enough. And by that I mean 
both the scenario outlined above and the fact that this is a forum that, at 
least loosely, is based on the idea of celebrating a philosophy of "just 
ride," of practical bicycles not limited by the parameters of modern day 
pro level machines. No doubt there are many places on the Internet to 
celebrate carbon fiber racing bicycles designed for kids 4-12 years old.

And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving 
customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a 
niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at 
the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain 
types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you 
are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only 
ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on 
pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)


On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:55 AM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>
> There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me check 
> the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 
>
> I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
> making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and 
> offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
> that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just 
> this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
> kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding 
> a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
> kids. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[RJM]

There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me check 
the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it. 

I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are 
making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and 
offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe 
that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just 
this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a 
kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding 
a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable 
kids. 

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 9:04:20 AM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:

> Wow. Can't quite wrap your mind around it? Let me try to help.
>
> You are on a list called Rivendelll Bicycle Works Owners Bunch. 
>
> Conveniently, serendipitously even, the owner and founder of RBW  wrote a 
> post a couple of days ago that expounds on some of the motivations behind 
> his business. Some of those reasons include not selling stuff he doesn't 
> think his customers need, or that he believes could be capable of harming 
> them.
>
> The OP, having gotten recommendations about another company, Islabikes, 
> that sounded like they might share some of this approach toward doing 
> business, was dismayed to see evidence recently appear that seems to 
> contradict this, yes, assumption. 
>
> In the world I live in, thankfully, there are still a few businesses that 
> exist for reasons in addition to making a profit, and will not, in fact, 
> sell the consumer whatever they want. Sadly, it does appear that Islabike, 
> until recently a contender, does not fall into this category. Hence the 
> thread discussion. Hope this helps dissipate some of the confusion.
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:12:38 AM UTC-4, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> Wow is right.   I have no idea what world some of you all live in.  
>> Islabike only has one philosophy, to make money.   They will sell the 
>> consumer whatever they want to buy.That's how this works. 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Wow. Can't quite wrap your mind around it? Let me try to help.

You are on a list called Rivendelll Bicycle Works Owners Bunch. 

Conveniently, serendipitously even, the owner and founder of RBW  wrote a 
post a couple of days ago that expounds on some of the motivations behind 
his business. Some of those reasons include not selling stuff he doesn't 
think his customers need, or that he believes could be capable of harming 
them.

The OP, having gotten recommendations about another company, Islabikes, 
that sounded like they might share some of this approach toward doing 
business, was dismayed to see evidence recently appear that seems to 
contradict this, yes, assumption. 

In the world I live in, thankfully, there are still a few businesses that 
exist for reasons in addition to making a profit, and will not, in fact, 
sell the consumer whatever they want. Sadly, it does appear that Islabike, 
until recently a contender, does not fall into this category. Hence the 
thread discussion. Hope this helps dissipate some of the confusion.

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:12:38 AM UTC-4, Skenry wrote:
>
> Wow is right.   I have no idea what world some of you all live in.  
> Islabike only has one philosophy, to make money.   They will sell the 
> consumer whatever they want to buy.That's how this works. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

Wow is right.   I have no idea what world some of you all live in.
Islabike only has one philosophy, to make money.   They will sell the
consumer whatever they want to buy.That's how this works.

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 8:34 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
> 
> I agree 100% with Leah. Disappointing.
>
> I bought an Islabike for  my 6 year old in March. He loves the bike. I
> will say that if they were offering the "pro" series at that time, I would
> have seriously considered going in another direction.
>
> For me the issue is not necessarily the safety of carbon--I will assume
> that is really no more of an issue these days than any other material. (but
> carbon steerer? Really?)
>
> For me the issue is the blatant attempt to make kids want the "pro stuff."
> Now, companies have long used pro names to sell merch, from baseball gloves
> to sneakers to bicycles (Sears had a "Ted Williams" bicycle.) But the
> ever-increasing specialization and technization of professional racing
> bicycles makes it kind of absurd to create a kid's bike in this image. Here
> is the bike for the Age 4 set (the only one without disc brakes, by the
> way):
> Cnoc 16 Pro Series
>
> Age 4+ / $1199.99
>
>  *The first bike we all dreamed of and the most important bike you’ll
> ever buy.*
>
> *The Cnoc 16 Pro Series is a superb introduction to riding for the young
> cyclist in your life. Stunning specifications and features will give them
> an unforgettable experience at one of the most important stages of their
> cycling development.*
>
>
> Riggght. The main takeaway a young cyclist will get during this "most
> important stage of their cycling development" is that, to really succeed,
> you need to buy the bling, baby. But hey, we need to create good little
> consumers, and what better time in life to sink your brand in?
>
>
> In the How We've Used Carbon Fiber section, there's this:
>>
>> This decision to adopt the use of carbon fiber has lead to us designing
>> and developing our own range of perfectly proportioned, ultra-light forks,
>> specifically tailored to work perfectly with our Pro Series frames.
>>
>> The Pro Series forks are constructed of Toray T700s standard modulus
>> unidirectional carbon fiber. ..blah blah technomumbojumbo blah blah...
>>
>>
>> *Through manipulation of the fork shape we have been able to achieve the
>> ride qualities we were looking for.* (My emphasis) Our exclusive
>> monocoque design features gently curved fork legs which reduce in size
>> towards the center allowing the fork to flex evenly along its entire length
>> for ride comfort, while flattened profiles retain steering sharpness
>>
>>
>> By using multiple unidirectional carbon fiber layers in varying degrees
>> throughout the fork we can also adjust the fork characteristicsblah
>> blah multidirectional blah blah layup...blah blah
>>
>> For the ultimate in lightweight, the forks feature full carbon
>> construction of the legs, crown and steerer. Because they are designed for
>> lighter riders we have been able to build them significantly lighter than
>> equivalent adults models whilst still being strong enough to withstand
>> rigorous loads — over and above testing...
>>
>>
>> We’ve incorporated a neat internal routing for the brake hose on our disc
>> brake models, keeping the cable out of harms way and removing the need for
>> a screw-on clamp.
>>
>
> Seriously? How would you know that you've achieved "the ride qualities
> 'you' were looking for?" By tooling around the test track on a 16" wheeled
> bicycle? Come on. Keeping the cable out of harm's way? What about the
> revolving discs that the pros recently decided to ban? Sheesh.
>
> I had to think long and hard before laying out in the neighborhood of $600
> for a bike my 6-year-old will outgrown in 2 years max. I did it because he
> has shown a real interest and enjoyment in bicycling, and it is something
> we do together, and the bike's features had a true cost for benefit logic.
> Plus I figured a chunk of that would be recouped at resale, or his younger
> cousin would ride it. $1200 for a 4-year-old's bicycle is, honestly, nuts.
> And not just because it is out of my price range. My son's mother wanted to
> buy him the same bicycle to have when he is with her! I said please, no,
> let's just get the bike back and forth. What kind of values would we be
> teaching by getting him two of the same bicycle? Or a "pro" bike that looks
> just as menacing and depressing as today's "real race bicycle" and goes
> well above and beyond what any kid needs (or really, should have) at that
> age? The "regular" Islabikes come in bright, fun kid colors. The "pro"
> bikes come in stealth matte black with blood red highlighting.
>
> I understand there are arguments for the existence of these things--hey,

Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Garth]

 By golly yes !  It IS going to be alright .  It's just another 
material to choose from. Obviously everyone who owns a carbon isn't 
crashing and burning nor will they be .  

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 10:56:50 AM UTC-4, Skenry wrote:
>
> Carbon is much much sturdier than you think.Carbon is also much more 
> trusted everywhere else in life than it is on this list.By the mode of 
> thinking around here, carbon would also have no place on a seatpost, 
> mountainbike, or a folder, or a car, airframe, in the military 
> It'll be fine. 
>
> You'd be surprised at how overbuilt cheap carbon like that really is.
> Top end racing carbon parts wouldn't be good for children, but then again, 
> neither would top end aluminum or lightweight steel.   Carbon forks on 
> those cheap bikes, and by that I'm referring to anything retailing below 
> about $1500, are really study.   Many of those forks aren't even that much 
> lighter.   They are built sturdy, maybe tapered and aero, but they are 
> built like a tank.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Leah Peterson]

We used to get going at speed on the bikes, jump off and watch to see how far 
the bikes would "ghost ride" before they crash-landed.  We jumped curbs, 
off-roaded into the coolies and ditched the bikes wherever we felt like it. We 
carried friends on the bars. Yeah, carbon would have been a mistake in my youth!

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 26, 2016, at 9:43 AM, John Phillips  wrote:
> 
> I know carbon would not have held up to what we did as kids. 
> 
> We were monsters!
> 
> Our parents would have been foolish to spend extra cash on a bike with carbon 
> parts.
> 
> John
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Scott Henry]

Carbon is much much sturdier than you think.Carbon is also much more
trusted everywhere else in life than it is on this list.By the mode of
thinking around here, carbon would also have no place on a seatpost,
mountainbike, or a folder, or a car, airframe, in the military
It'll be fine.

You'd be surprised at how overbuilt cheap carbon like that really is.
Top end racing carbon parts wouldn't be good for children, but then again,
neither would top end aluminum or lightweight steel.   Carbon forks on
those cheap bikes, and by that I'm referring to anything retailing below
about $1500, are really study.   Many of those forks aren't even that much
lighter.   They are built sturdy, maybe tapered and aero, but they are
built like a tank.

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> In a world of "racing light" is king, customers will buy carbon and be
> uninformed that the bikes are throwaway after the first hard knock (who can
> imagine that with a kid's bike?" or at the very least the frame integrity
> needs be checked by a competent specialist after every spill ("did you drop
> your bike today, Davey?". I think of the "fork wars" video: how many times
> as a kid did I leap off my bike, take a tumble, or simply slam my bike down
> hard, with a lot of lateral pressure on the fork/frame? Far more than I
> ever realized.
>
> What I find concerning is precisely that carbon has no place in a kid's
> bike. Ever. Yet they are offering it. It shows me their underlying
> principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 3:51:39 PM UTC-6, Brewster Fong wrote:
>>
>>
>> I don't get this post. So what if they are expanding into carbon?   I
>> don't think a carbon bike by itself is going to cause all the death and
>> destruction that many people fear.
>>
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