Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

As the question of parallel statements of responsibility brought up by 
Ben a couple of days ago was still worrying me, I asked LChelp4rda for 
their opinion. With his kind permission, I'm forwarding Dave Reser's 
answer to the list.


Heidrun


 Original-Nachricht 
Betreff:RE: Parallel statements of responsibility
Datum:  Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:00:40 -0400
Von:LChelp4rda 
An: 'Heidrun Wiesenmüller' 



Dear Heidrun,
I'm afraid that we've been too busy with RDA "day 1" activities to monitor 
listervs that way we probably should, so at the risk of not going back and reading the 
earlier discussion, I'll throw in my opinion below.

-Original Message-
From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller [mailto:wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:19 AM
To: LChelp4rda
Subject: Parallel statements of responsibility

I need some help with a question concerning parallel statements of
responsibility in cases, where the introductory phrases appear in
different languages, but the names are only listed once. This is not a
rare case, so I assume that LC has already decided on how to treat this
under RDA.
[DR COMMENT] Actually, I've not had anyone ask about a case like this.  This 
may be due more to the fact that of the 'parallel' elements, only parallel 
title proper is a core element for LC.  Or, catalogers are using their 
professional judgment and recording it in a manner that best represents the 
resource with a minimum of distortion for the user needing to interpret the 
record.

It was already discussed in some depth on the RDA list in the thread
"2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility", started on 1 April by
Benjamin A Abrahamse:
http://www.mail-archive.com/rda-l@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca/msg09075.html

The source of information reads:
Mit Beiträgen von/With contributions by Fernando Aguiar [followed by 88
other names]
hg. von/ed. by Jörg Piringer und Günter Vallaster

Note the special problem in the second line, where there is only the
German "und" and not an English counterpart "and", which further
complicates the situation.

In the course of discussion, three possible ways of transcription were
discussed, which got different backing from list readers. Here's a
summary of the three options:


1. Treat these as parallel statements of responsibility. Apply RDA
1.7.7, i.e. repeat the names, as they are supposed to be read twice.
This would result in:

mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others] ; hg. von Jörg
Piringer und Günter Vallaster = with contributions by Fernando Aguiar
[and 88 others] ; ed. by Jörg Piringer [and] Günter Vallaster

Or, if put as RDA elements:
Statement of responsibility relating to title: mit Beiträgen von
Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
Statement of responsibility relating to title: hg. von Jörg Piringer und
Günter Vallaster
Parallel statement of responsibility relating to title: with
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
Parallel statement of responsibility relating to title: ed. by Jörg
Piringer [and] Günter Vallaster

[DR COMMENT] I guess 1.7.7 could be interpreted as applicable.  This 
instruction had its origination in AACR2 (1.1B5), although the concept was 
exclusive to title proper in that context.  This is a topic that received a lot 
of discussion during the RDA development, finally culminating in acceptance of 
the AACR2 practice, though applying it to any transcribed element (April 2007 
minutes of the JSC meeting).  An earlier incarnation of the instruciton 
(numbered as 1.6.6) talked more about the types of 'fanciful' arrangements on 
title pages, such as those with words read more than once, or in crossword 
puzzle fashion, etc.  The debate was about how to be truthful to the principle 
of exact transcription, when doing so did not necessarily make sense. The ended 
up on the side of 'making sense' rather than slavish transcription, though the  
JSC did flag this as an issue that may be taken up again after RDA publication 
(none of the constituencies has seen this as an important enough issue to do 
so, that I am aware of).  I am not as familiar with ISBD itself as many others 
might be, but I am not aware that it handles this situation.

2. Do not apply RDA 1.7.7 (i.e. the names should appear only once in the
transcription). This was backed by arguments from the ISBD, especially
an example in ISBD 1.4.5.10.2, which shows an "incomplete" statement of
responsibility:

8 capriccios : hegedüre, második hegedii kiséretével = für Violine, mit
Begleitung der zweiten Violine / Henryk Wieniawski ; átnézte és
ujjrenddel allátta = revidiert und mit Fingersatz versehen von Jenö Hubay

Also cited was ISBD rule A.3.2.9: "When a single statement (e.g. a
statement of responsibility) is given partly in one
language or script and partly in more than one language or script, the
several linguistic forms are transcribed together; equals signs or other
punctuation symbols are used as appropriate."

This would result in:
mit Beiträ

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[M. E.]

Heidrun Wiesenmüller  wrote:


> But be that as it may: There is indeed an example for a grammatically
> incomplete s-o-r in the ISBD (which was news to me), and this must give us
> cause to think again (although of course we know that RDA deviates from the
> ISBD sometimes).
>

There is also this instruction to consider under ISBD A.3.2.9: "When a
single statement (e.g. a statement of responsibility) is given partly in
one language or script and partly in more than one language or script, the
several linguistic forms are transcribed together; equals signs or other
punctuation symbols are used as appropriate."



>  Also, I believe there is no counterpart for RDA 1.7.7 in the ISBD (at
> least I couldn't find one in the general chapter).
>
>

I had no luck too.  ISBD 1.1.5.1 describes transcribing titles "exactly as
to wording," so there is likely no equivalent to RDA 1.7.7 to be found
there.

--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[M. E.]

Heidrun Wiesenmüller  wrote:

>Well, let’s wait and see what Chris Oliver has come up with. I
> gather the rest of the reworded chapters should appear soon in the Toolkit
> (by the way, wasn't it announced that chapters 2 and 3 should be published
> in February?).
>

They were indeed scheduled to come out in February.
http://www.rdatoolkit.org/blog/488

These and remaining chapters are delayed until May.
http://www.rdatoolkit.org/blog/526


-- 
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[J. McRee Elrod]

Ben posted:


>Mit Beitr=E4gen von/With contributions by ...
>hg. von/ed. by ...

Of course if there are titles in the two languages, we would record to
two statements after the titles in the same language.

In this case, I gather you have only one title.  We would record the
two phrases with an equal sign between, followed by the names once.  
That seems to be how the statement is intended to be read.

"mit Beitrgen von = with contributions by ..."

Another possibility would be to omit the whole thing, and have a 505
with part titles, followed by their authors.

In terms of repeating words intended to be read twice (which has been
cited), our clients prefer what is on the item, e.g.:

Canadian bibliographies canadiennes

as opposed to AACR2.s 1.1B5's

Canaidan bibliographies = Bibliographies canadienne

which bears little resemblance to the prime source.  The latter
version would be returned for correction, on the grounds that it does
not reflect what the item they have says.

Both AACR2 and RDA both sometimes over complicate what should be
simple transcription.  In the case Ben cites, we would transcribe what
is there, and the names are only there once, if not omitting and
giving the names in contents.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

Mark,

now that's an interesting point (I had to look up "monkeywrench", though).

The particular rule in the ISBD you mentioned seems to refer to a 
special situation: "When it is not possible to give an appropriate 
statement of responsibility after each title or other title information, 
the statements of responsibility, if given, are given together following 
the last parallel title or parallel other title information." Also, I 
find it difficult to reconcile a grammatically incomplete s-o-r like 
"mit Beiträgen von" with the options for the form of a s-o-r as given in 
1.4.3 ISBD. True, 1.4.3.2 ISBD allows for a s-o-r to "consist of a 
phrase without a name or designating an unnamed group when such a phrase 
describes an intellectual contribution or is otherwise significant", but 
the examples look rather different (e.g. "translated from the Swedish" 
or "text taken from the Chester mystery plays and mediaveal poems").


But be that as it may: There is indeed an example for a grammatically 
incomplete s-o-r in the ISBD (which was news to me), and this must give 
us cause to think again (although of course we know that RDA deviates 
from the ISBD sometimes).


But even in the light of the ISBD example, I'd find it hard to accept 
"mit Beiträgen von" as a valid s-o-r in RDA for two reasons:


1. As the parallel s-o-r is not core, it would in theory be possible to 
have only "mit Beiträgen von" in the s-o-r relating to title proper 
element. I'd say that this is impossible in this case.


2. ISBD presentation is possible, but not necessary under RDA. We are 
supposed to look at several s-o-r not as one text string to be viewed as 
a whole, but as several separate elements, which could also be presented 
quite differently, e.g. in the form of a table:


statement of responsibility: mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 88 
others]
different language version of statement of responsibility: with 
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]


Again, I'd find it impossible to have only "mit Beiträgen von" as the 
content of the first element in such a display.


Also, I believe there is no counterpart for RDA 1.7.7 in the ISBD (at 
least I couldn't find one in the general chapter).


Heidrun




Am 01.04.2013 23:16, schrieb M. E.:

Benjamin A Abrahamse mailto:babra...@mit.edu>> wrote:

When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its
chief source of information, but only the "connecting words" are
parallel, not the names themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?

Monkeywrench.
An example from ISBD 1.4.5.10.2:
8 capriccios : hegedüre, második hegedii kiséretével = für Violine, 
mit Begleitung der zweiten Violine / Henryk Wieniawski ; átnézte és 
ujjrenddel allátta = revidiert und mit Fingersatz versehen von Jenö Hubay
Note Wieniawski is mentioned only once, and Hubay only in the parallel 
SOR, the primary SOR left incomplete.  ISBD's transcription 
instruction (1.4.5.1) simply reads: A statement of responsibility is 
transcribed in the terms in which it appears on the resource.
Is doubling up on the names in the various SORs an application of RDA 
1.7.7's "intended to be read twice" instruction?


--
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex




--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[M. E.]

Benjamin A Abrahamse  wrote:

>  When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its chief
> source of information, but only the "connecting words" are parallel, not
> the names themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?
>
>
>

Monkeywrench.

An example from ISBD 1.4.5.10.2:

8 capriccios : hegedüre, második hegedii kiséretével = für Violine, mit
Begleitung der zweiten Violine / Henryk Wieniawski ; átnézte és ujjrenddel
allátta = revidiert und mit Fingersatz versehen von Jenö Hubay

Note Wieniawski is mentioned only once, and Hubay only in the parallel SOR,
the primary SOR left incomplete.  ISBD's transcription instruction
(1.4.5.1) simply reads: A statement of responsibility is transcribed in the
terms in which it appears on the resource.

Is doubling up on the names in the various SORs an application of RDA
1.7.7's "intended to be read twice" instruction?

-- 
Mark K. Ehlert
Minitex

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Arakawa, Steven]

Taking both rules into account, I think what it's saying is to identify the 
statement of responsibility for the title proper when there are statements of 
resp. in multiple languages by choosing the statement of responsibility in the 
same language as the title proper. The remaining statements of responsibility 
in the other languages then become the "parallel statements of responsibility." 
But remember that only the one statement of responsibility identified in 
2.4.2.4. is core; the parallel statements of responsibility are optional. Whew!

Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 4:12 PM
To: rd...@listserv.lac-BAC.G
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

As I just said: It's really not well presented. But now I see that it's even 
worse than I thought.

I still believe that 2.4.2.4 is all about deciding which statement(s) is/are 
the "normal" ones, when you're confronted with statements in different 
languages. Once you've managed that, you can go on to 2.4.3 to handle the 
others.

But 2.4.2.4 makes it sound as if _all_ the statements are "statements of 
responsibility relating to title proper", so one wonders why they can't be all 
recorded in the "statement of responsibiity relating to title proper" element. 
But according to 2.4.3.1 we find that only one of them can be recorded in this 
element, whereas the others have to be recorded as "parallel statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper."

I've just read 2.4.3.1 again, veeerrry slowly: "A parallel statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper is a statement of responsibility 
relating to title proper (see 2.4.2.1) in a language and/or script that differs 
from that recorded in the statement of responsibility relating to title proper 
element."

So now: Is such a thing a statement of responsibility relating to title 
proper??? Well, it seems that it is and it isn't. Curiouser and curiouser...

Heidrun


Ben wrote:
Hm, now I'm getting confused.

2.4.2.4 applies to "a statement of responsibility relating to title proper 
[that] appears on the source of information in more than one language".

But the scope statement to 2.4.3 defines "parallel statement of responsibility" 
as "a statement of responsibility relating to title proper (see 2.4.2.1) in a 
language and/or script that differs from that recorded in the statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper element".

Is it just me, or do they seem to be talking about the same thing?

Or is 2.4.3ff limited to cases where you already have parallel titles AND 
parallel s-o-r's? (On a closer look, it's not--2.4.3.2 says, "If there is no 
corresponding parallel title proper, take parallel statements of responsibility 
relating to title proper from the same source as the title proper" so clearly 
it also applies to situations where there is no parallel title proper, only 
parallel statements of responsibility.)

So, what's going on here??

--Ben



Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Arakawa, Steven
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:36 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

If you have a single title proper and statements of responsibility in multiple 
languages, I think 2.4.2.4. applies: "If a statement of responsibility relating 
to title proper appears on the source of information in more than one language 
or script, record the statement in the language or script of the title proper. 
If this criterion does not apply, record the statement that appears first." The 
examples are helpful.

Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

No parallel title, just the

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Joan Wang]

Heidrun, thanks for the reminding of an addition of a clarification of role
:)

Joan Wang

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller <
wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de> wrote:

>  As RDA stands now, the "[and 88 others]" bit _must_ be in the language
> preferred by the agency (RDA 2.4.1.5, Optional omission), so indeed an
> English-speaking cataloger would put the English phrase "[and 88 others]"
> twice (both in the German statement and in the English one).
>
> On the other hand, if there were only the names on the t.p., and you'd
> want to add a clarification of role (RDA 2.4.1.7), this would have to be in
> the language of the s-o-r (according to the basic rule in RDA 1.4: "When
> adding data within an element listed above, record the added data in the
> language and script of the other data in the element unless the
> instructions for a specific element indicate otherwise"). So, in this case,
> Ben would end up with: "[mit Beiträgen von] Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
> = [with contributions by] Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]"
>
> I'm not really sure that I am happy with this. The clarification of role
> is a cataloger's decision also, so I find it difficult to see a huge
> difference between the two cases. Personally, I would prefer to have at
> least an option to give the "[and 88 others]" bit in the language of the
> statement of responsibility instead of the language of the agency.
>
> Heidrun
>
>
>
> On 01.04.2013 22:12, Joan Wang wrote:
>
> I think that the abridgment is a cataloger's decision. So it should be in
> the cataloging language, the language of the bibliographic record being
> created. Is that right?
>
> Joan Wang
> Illinois Heartland Library System
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Geoffrey Hooker  wrote:
>
>> And a related question for those of us in Anglophone countries : would it
>> be
>> mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
>> or
>> mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [und 88 andere]
>>  ?
>>
>>  *Geoffrey Hooker *
>> http://geoffreyhookermls.blogspot.com/
>> *It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.* -Voltaire
>> (1694-1778)
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1 April 2013 14:06, Benjamin A Abrahamse  wrote:
>>
>>>  No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should
>>> not be capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a
>>> character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Benjamin Abrahamse
>>>
>>> Cataloging Coordinator
>>>
>>> Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
>>>
>>> MIT Libraries
>>>
>>> 617-253-7137
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Zhonghong (Joan) Wang, Ph.D.
> Cataloger -- CMC
> Illinois Heartland Library System (Edwardsville Office)
> 6725 Goshen Road
> Edwardsville, IL 62025
> 618.656.3216x409
> 618.656.9401Fax
>
>
>
> --
> -
> Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
> Stuttgart Media University
> Faculty of Information and Communication
> Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germanywww.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
>
>


-- 
Zhonghong (Joan) Wang, Ph.D.
Cataloger -- CMC
Illinois Heartland Library System (Edwardsville Office)
6725 Goshen Road
Edwardsville, IL 62025
618.656.3216x409
618.656.9401Fax

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

As RDA stands now, the "[and 88 others]" bit _must_ be in the language 
preferred by the agency (RDA 2.4.1.5, Optional omission), so indeed an 
English-speaking cataloger would put the English phrase "[and 88 
others]" twice (both in the German statement and in the English one).


On the other hand, if there were only the names on the t.p., and you'd 
want to add a clarification of role (RDA 2.4.1.7), this would have to be 
in the language of the s-o-r (according to the basic rule in RDA 1.4: 
"When adding data within an element listed above, record the added data 
in the language and script of the other data in the element unless the 
instructions for a specific element indicate otherwise"). So, in this 
case, Ben would end up with: "[mit Beiträgen von] Fernando Aguiar [and 
88 others] = [with contributions by] Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]"


I'm not really sure that I am happy with this. The clarification of role 
is a cataloger's decision also, so I find it difficult to see a huge 
difference between the two cases. Personally, I would prefer to have at 
least an option to give the "[and 88 others]" bit in the language of the 
statement of responsibility instead of the language of the agency.


Heidrun



On 01.04.2013 22:12, Joan Wang wrote:
I think that the abridgment is a cataloger's decision. So it should be 
in the cataloging language, the language of the bibliographic record 
being created. Is that right?


Joan Wang
Illinois Heartland Library System

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Geoffrey Hooker > wrote:


And a related question for those of us in Anglophone countries :
would it be
mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
or
mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [und 88 andere]
?

/Geoffrey Hooker /
http://geoffreyhookermls.blogspot.com/
/It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong./
-Voltaire (1694-1778)



On 1 April 2013 14:06, Benjamin A Abrahamse mailto:babra...@mit.edu>> wrote:

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit"
should not be capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my
mistake.

I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But
there is a character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use
the optional omission. :)

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137 





--
Zhonghong (Joan) Wang, Ph.D.
Cataloger -- CMC
Illinois Heartland Library System (Edwardsville Office)
6725 Goshen Road
Edwardsville, IL 62025
618.656.3216x409
618.656.9401Fax



--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Joan Wang]

I think that the abridgment is a cataloger's decision. So it should be in
the cataloging language, the language of the bibliographic record being
created. Is that right?

Joan Wang
Illinois Heartland Library System

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Geoffrey Hooker  wrote:

> And a related question for those of us in Anglophone countries : would it
> be
> mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
> or
> mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [und 88 andere]
> ?
>
> *Geoffrey Hooker *
> http://geoffreyhookermls.blogspot.com/
> *It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.* -Voltaire
> (1694-1778)
>
>
>
> On 1 April 2013 14:06, Benjamin A Abrahamse  wrote:
>
>>  No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should
>> not be capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a
>> character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)
>> 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Benjamin Abrahamse
>>
>> Cataloging Coordinator
>>
>> Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
>>
>> MIT Libraries
>>
>> 617-253-7137
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Zhonghong (Joan) Wang, Ph.D.
Cataloger -- CMC
Illinois Heartland Library System (Edwardsville Office)
6725 Goshen Road
Edwardsville, IL 62025
618.656.3216x409
618.656.9401Fax

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

As I just said: It's really not well presented. But now I see that it's 
even worse than I thought.


I still believe that 2.4.2.4 is all about deciding which statement(s) 
is/are the "normal" ones, when you're confronted with statements in 
different languages. Once you've managed that, you can go on to 2.4.3 to 
handle the others.


But 2.4.2.4 makes it sound as if _all_ the statements are "statements of 
responsibility relating to title proper", so one wonders why they can't 
be all recorded in the "statement of responsibiity relating to title 
proper" element. But according to 2.4.3.1 we find that only one of them 
can be recorded in this element, whereas the others have to be recorded 
as "parallel statement of responsibility relating to title proper."


I've just read 2.4.3.1 again, veeerrry slowly: "A parallel statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper is a statement of responsibility 
relating to title proper (see 2.4.2.1) in a language and/or script that 
differs from that recorded in the statement of responsibility relating 
to title proper element."


So now: Is such a thing a statement of responsibility relating to title 
proper??? Well, it seems that it is and it isn't. Curiouser and curiouser...


Heidrun


Ben wrote:


Hm, now I'm getting confused.

2.4.2.4 applies to "a statement of responsibility relating to title 
proper [that] appears on the source of information in more than one 
language".


But the scope statement to 2.4.3 defines "parallel statement of 
responsibility" as "a statement of responsibility relating to title 
proper (see 2.4.2.1) in a language and/or script that differs from 
that recorded in the statement of responsibility relating to title 
proper element".


Is it just me, or do they seem to be talking about the same thing?

Or is 2.4.3ff limited to cases where you already have parallel titles 
AND parallel s-o-r's? (On a closer look, it's not--2.4.3.2 says, "If 
there is no corresponding parallel title proper, take parallel 
statements of responsibility relating to title proper from the same 
source as the title proper" so clearly it also applies to situations 
where there is no parallel title proper, only parallel statements of 
responsibility.)


So, what's going on here??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and 
Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] *On Behalf Of *Arakawa, 
Steven

*Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 3:36 PM
*To:* RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

*If you have a single title proper and statements of responsibility in 
multiple languages, I think 2.4.2.4. applies: "*If a statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper appears on the source of 
information in more than one language or script, record the statement 
in the language or script of the title proper. If this criterion does 
not apply, record the statement that appears first." The examples are 
helpful.


**

Steven Arakawa

Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation

Catalog & Metada Services

Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University

P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240

(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu <mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>

**

**

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and 
Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Benjamin A 
Abrahamse

*Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
*To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA <mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should 
not be capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.


I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is 
a character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional 
omission. :)


Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and 
Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] *On Behalf Of *Heidrun 
Wiesenmüller

*Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 3:07 PM
*To:* RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca <mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of 
"Mit" ("mit" being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).


What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but 
twice), I wonder whether there mi

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

In this case, and despite the complexities it has raised, I do think statements 
in both languages should be recorded. Because, while the title is English, the 
book itself is bilingual (not German and English in parallel, but actually just 
some German and some English. It's mainly poetry and images. We can always rely 
on poets and artists to muck up our neat categorizations of the world, can't 
we.)

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:57 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

Quite, but that doesn't mean that you cannot record the other statements of 
responsibility as well - and Ben obviously wanted to.

2.4.2.4 only gives guidance as to which of the statements should be chosen as 
the primary one. Other statements of responsibility can then be recorded as 
parallel statements of responsibility according to 2.4.3.3.

I think the wording should be clearer in 2.4.2.4. When you read "_record_ the 
statement in the language or script of the title proper", you might indeed be 
lead to believe that you can _only_ record this statement and have to discard 
the other ones. It would be better to have a similar wording as in 2.3.2.4 
"Title in more than one language or script": "If the source of information for 
the title proper bears a title in more than one language or script, _choose_ as 
the title proper the one in the language or script of the main written, spoken, 
or sung content of the resource."

Heidrun



On 01.04.2013 21:36, Arakawa, Steven wrote:
If you have a single title proper and statements of responsibility in multiple 
languages, I think 2.4.2.4. applies: "If a statement of responsibility relating 
to title proper appears on the source of information in more than one language 
or script, record the statement in the language or script of the title proper. 
If this criterion does not apply, record the statement that appears first." The 
examples are helpful.

Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should not be 
capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.

I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a 
character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:07 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of "Mit" ("mit" 
being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).

What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but twice), I 
wonder whether there might be technical problems with the maximum field length 
for 245. Or is there no such limit in American library systems? I know that in 
Germany there are library systems which - at least at the moment - wouldn't be 
able to cope with statements this long.

Deborah is right about keeping together statements in the same language 
according to ISBD. Is there also a parallel title? Then it would look 
marginally nicer:

Title proper : other title information / mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 
88 others] ; hg. von X = Parallel title proper : parallel other title 
information / with contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others] ; ed. by X

Heidrun





On 01.04.2013 20:17, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to avoid as this 
also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of contributors (over 80 of 
them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the abbreviations are on the source.)

So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and ei

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Geoffrey Hooker]

And a related question for those of us in Anglophone countries : would it
be
mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others]
or
mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [und 88 andere]
?

*Geoffrey Hooker *
http://geoffreyhookermls.blogspot.com/
*It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.* -Voltaire
(1694-1778)



On 1 April 2013 14:06, Benjamin A Abrahamse  wrote:

>  No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should not
> be capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.
>
> ** **
>
> I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a
> character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)
> 
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> ** **
>
> Benjamin Abrahamse
>
> Cataloging Coordinator
>
> Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
>
> MIT Libraries
>
> 617-253-7137
>
> ** **
>
>
>

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

Quite, but that doesn't mean that you cannot record the other statements 
of responsibility as well - and Ben obviously wanted to.


2.4.2.4 only gives guidance as to which of the statements should be 
chosen as the primary one. Other statements of responsibility can then 
be recorded as parallel statements of responsibility according to 2.4.3.3.


I think the wording should be clearer in 2.4.2.4. When you read 
"_record_ the statement in the language or script of the title proper", 
you might indeed be lead to believe that you can _only_ record this 
statement and have to discard the other ones. It would be better to have 
a similar wording as in 2.3.2.4 "Title in more than one language or 
script": "If the source of information for the title proper bears a 
title in more than one language or script, _choose_ as the title proper 
the one in the language or script of the main written, spoken, or sung 
content of the resource."


Heidrun



On 01.04.2013 21:36, Arakawa, Steven wrote:


*If you have a single title proper and statements of responsibility in 
multiple languages, I think 2.4.2.4. applies: "*If a statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper appears on the source of 
information in more than one language or script, record the statement 
in the language or script of the title proper. If this criterion does 
not apply, record the statement that appears first." The examples are 
helpful.**


**

Steven Arakawa

Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation

Catalog & Metada Services

Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University

P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240

(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu <mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>

**

**

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and 
Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Benjamin A 
Abrahamse

*Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
*To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should 
not be capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.


I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is 
a character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional 
omission. :)


Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and 
Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] *On Behalf Of *Heidrun 
Wiesenmüller

*Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 3:07 PM
*To:* RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca <mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of 
"Mit" ("mit" being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).


What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but 
twice), I wonder whether there might be technical problems with the 
maximum field length for 245. Or is there no such limit in American 
library systems? I know that in Germany there are library systems 
which - at least at the moment - wouldn't be able to cope with 
statements this long.


Deborah is right about keeping together statements in the same 
language according to ISBD. Is there also a parallel title? Then it 
would look marginally nicer:


Title proper : other title information / mit Beiträgen von Fernando 
Aguiar [and 88 others] ; hg. von X = Parallel title proper : parallel 
other title information / with contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 
88 others] ; ed. by X


Heidrun





On 01.04.2013 20:17, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:

It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to
avoid as this also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of
contributors (over 80 of them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the
abbreviations are on the source.)

So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others] = with
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others]

??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and
Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] *On Behalf Of
*Heidrun Wiesenmüller
    *Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 2:12 PM
    *To:* RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to
1.7.3, as it obviously is a case of parallel statements of
   

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

Hm, now I'm getting confused.

2.4.2.4 applies to "a statement of responsibility relating to title proper 
[that] appears on the source of information in more than one language".

But the scope statement to 2.4.3 defines "parallel statement of responsibility" 
as "a statement of responsibility relating to title proper (see 2.4.2.1) in a 
language and/or script that differs from that recorded in the statement of 
responsibility relating to title proper element".

Is it just me, or do they seem to be talking about the same thing?

Or is 2.4.3ff limited to cases where you already have parallel titles AND 
parallel s-o-r's? (On a closer look, it's not--2.4.3.2 says, "If there is no 
corresponding parallel title proper, take parallel statements of responsibility 
relating to title proper from the same source as the title proper" so clearly 
it also applies to situations where there is no parallel title proper, only 
parallel statements of responsibility.)

So, what's going on here??

--Ben



Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Arakawa, Steven
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:36 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

If you have a single title proper and statements of responsibility in multiple 
languages, I think 2.4.2.4. applies: "If a statement of responsibility relating 
to title proper appears on the source of information in more than one language 
or script, record the statement in the language or script of the title proper. 
If this criterion does not apply, record the statement that appears first." The 
examples are helpful.

Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should not be 
capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.

I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a 
character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:07 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of "Mit" ("mit" 
being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).

What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but twice), I 
wonder whether there might be technical problems with the maximum field length 
for 245. Or is there no such limit in American library systems? I know that in 
Germany there are library systems which - at least at the moment - wouldn't be 
able to cope with statements this long.

Deborah is right about keeping together statements in the same language 
according to ISBD. Is there also a parallel title? Then it would look 
marginally nicer:

Title proper : other title information / mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 
88 others] ; hg. von X = Parallel title proper : parallel other title 
information / with contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others] ; ed. by X

Heidrun





On 01.04.2013 20:17, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to avoid as this 
also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of contributors (over 80 of 
them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the abbreviations are on the source.)

So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others] = with 
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others]

??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 2:1

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Arakawa, Steven]

If you have a single title proper and statements of responsibility in multiple 
languages, I think 2.4.2.4. applies: "If a statement of responsibility relating 
to title proper appears on the source of information in more than one language 
or script, record the statement in the language or script of the title proper. 
If this criterion does not apply, record the statement that appears first." The 
examples are helpful.

Steven Arakawa
Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation
Catalog & Metada Services
Sterling Memorial Library. Yale University
P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240
(203) 432-8286 steven.arak...@yale.edu<mailto:steven.arak...@yale.edu>



From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:06 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should not be 
capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.

I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a 
character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:07 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of "Mit" ("mit" 
being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).

What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but twice), I 
wonder whether there might be technical problems with the maximum field length 
for 245. Or is there no such limit in American library systems? I know that in 
Germany there are library systems which - at least at the moment - wouldn't be 
able to cope with statements this long.

Deborah is right about keeping together statements in the same language 
according to ISBD. Is there also a parallel title? Then it would look 
marginally nicer:

Title proper : other title information / mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 
88 others] ; hg. von X = Parallel title proper : parallel other title 
information / with contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others] ; ed. by X

Heidrun





On 01.04.2013 20:17, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to avoid as this 
also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of contributors (over 80 of 
them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the abbreviations are on the source.)

So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others] = with 
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others]

??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 2:12 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to 1.7.3, as it 
obviously is a case of parallel statements of responsibility (i.e. two 
different RDA elements). But I'd find it odd to have only "Mit Beiträgen von" 
as one of these statements of responsibility. As this is only an introductory 
phrase, it somehow seems to miss the point.

I wonder if we could solve this problem by making use of RDA 1.7.7 "Letters or 
Words Intended to Be Read More Than Once": "If a letter or word appears only 
once but the design of the source of information makes it clear that it is 
intended to be read more than once, repeat the letter or word."

Perhaps we could argue that on these title pages, the names are intended to be 
read twice, once with the German introductory phrase, and a second time with 
the English introductory phrase. Then you'd have:

mit Beiträgen von X, Y, Z = with contributions by X, Y, Z ; hg. von A = ed. by A

Does that make sense?

Heidrun




On 01.04.2013 19:36, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its chief source 
of information, but only the "connecting words" are parallel, not the names 
themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?

E.g., what I see on the t.p.:

Mit Beiträgen 

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

No parallel title, just the s-o-r's.  And certainly the "mit" should not be 
capitalized (and isn't on the piece) that was my mistake.

I don't know if there's a character limit in OCLC or not. But there is a 
character limit to my brain, so I'm going to use the optional omission. :)

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:07 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of "Mit" ("mit" 
being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).

What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but twice), I 
wonder whether there might be technical problems with the maximum field length 
for 245. Or is there no such limit in American library systems? I know that in 
Germany there are library systems which - at least at the moment - wouldn't be 
able to cope with statements this long.

Deborah is right about keeping together statements in the same language 
according to ISBD. Is there also a parallel title? Then it would look 
marginally nicer:

Title proper : other title information / mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and 
88 others] ; hg. von X = Parallel title proper : parallel other title 
information / with contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 others] ; ed. by X

Heidrun





On 01.04.2013 20:17, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to avoid as this 
also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of contributors (over 80 of 
them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the abbreviations are on the source.)

So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others] = with 
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others]

??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 2:12 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca<mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to 1.7.3, as it 
obviously is a case of parallel statements of responsibility (i.e. two 
different RDA elements). But I'd find it odd to have only "Mit Beiträgen von" 
as one of these statements of responsibility. As this is only an introductory 
phrase, it somehow seems to miss the point.

I wonder if we could solve this problem by making use of RDA 1.7.7 "Letters or 
Words Intended to Be Read More Than Once": "If a letter or word appears only 
once but the design of the source of information makes it clear that it is 
intended to be read more than once, repeat the letter or word."

Perhaps we could argue that on these title pages, the names are intended to be 
read twice, once with the German introductory phrase, and a second time with 
the English introductory phrase. Then you'd have:

mit Beiträgen von X, Y, Z = with contributions by X, Y, Z ; hg. von A = ed. by A

Does that make sense?

Heidrun




On 01.04.2013 19:36, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its chief source 
of information, but only the "connecting words" are parallel, not the names 
themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?

E.g., what I see on the t.p.:

Mit Beiträgen von/With contributions by ...
hg. von/ed. by ...

Is simply transcribing what I see enough, or should the "/" be replaced with " 
= "?

Mit Beiträgen von = With contributions by ... ; hg. von = ed. by 


Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137






--

-

Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.

Stuttgart Media University

Faculty of Information and Communication

Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany

www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi<http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi>




--

-

Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.

Stuttgart Media University

Faculty of Information and Communication

Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany

www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi<http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi>

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

I'm afraid so, only I think it should start with "mit" instead of "Mit" 
("mit" being a preposition which is not ordinarily capitalized).


What a lovely example - I'm thrilled ;-)

If you really were to transcribe all the 89 names (not once, but twice), 
I wonder whether there might be technical problems with the maximum 
field length for 245. Or is there no such limit in American library 
systems? I know that in Germany there are library systems which - at 
least at the moment - wouldn't be able to cope with statements this long.


Deborah is right about keeping together statements in the same language 
according to ISBD. Is there also a parallel title? Then it would look 
marginally nicer:


Title proper : other title information / mit Beiträgen von Fernando 
Aguiar [and 88 others] ; hg. von X = Parallel title proper : parallel 
other title information / with contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and 88 
others] ; ed. by X


Heidrun





On 01.04.2013 20:17, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:


It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to avoid as 
this also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of contributors 
(over 80 of them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the abbreviations are on the 
source.)


So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others] = with 
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others]


??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137

*From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and 
Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] *On Behalf Of *Heidrun 
Wiesenmüller

*Sent:* Monday, April 01, 2013 2:12 PM
*To:* RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
*Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to 1.7.3, 
as it obviously is a case of parallel statements of responsibility 
(i.e. two different RDA elements). But I'd find it odd to have only 
"Mit Beiträgen von" as one of these statements of responsibility. As 
this is only an introductory phrase, it somehow seems to miss the point.


I wonder if we could solve this problem by making use of RDA 1.7.7 
"Lettersor Words Intended to Be Read More Than Once": "If a letter or 
word appears only once but the design of the source of information 
makes it clear that it is intended to be read more than once, repeat 
the letter or word."


Perhaps we could argue that on these title pages, the names are 
intended to be read twice, once with the German introductory phrase, 
and a second time with the English introductory phrase. Then you'd have:


mit Beiträgen von X, Y, Z = with contributions by X, Y, Z ; hg. von A 
= ed. by A


Does that make sense?

Heidrun




On 01.04.2013 19:36, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:

When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its
chief source of information, but only the "connecting words" are
parallel, not the names themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?

E.g., what I see on the t.p.:

Mit Beiträgen von/With contributions by ...

hg. von/ed. by ...

Is simply transcribing what I see enough, or should the "/" be
replaced with " = "?

Mit Beiträgen von = With contributions by ... ; hg. von = ed. by 

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137




--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi  <http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi>



--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

It makes sense, but it's actually the outcome I was hoping to avoid as this 
also happens to be a t.p. with an extensive list of contributors (over 80 of 
them) on the t.p.  (And yes, the abbreviations are on the source.)

So it would end up looking like this:

Mit Beiträgen von Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others] = with 
contributions by Fernando Aguiar [and eighty-eight others]

??

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 2:12 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to 1.7.3, as it 
obviously is a case of parallel statements of responsibility (i.e. two 
different RDA elements). But I'd find it odd to have only "Mit Beiträgen von" 
as one of these statements of responsibility. As this is only an introductory 
phrase, it somehow seems to miss the point.

I wonder if we could solve this problem by making use of RDA 1.7.7 "Letters or 
Words Intended to Be Read More Than Once": "If a letter or word appears only 
once but the design of the source of information makes it clear that it is 
intended to be read more than once, repeat the letter or word."

Perhaps we could argue that on these title pages, the names are intended to be 
read twice, once with the German introductory phrase, and a second time with 
the English introductory phrase. Then you'd have:

mit Beiträgen von X, Y, Z = with contributions by X, Y, Z ; hg. von A = ed. by A

Does that make sense?

Heidrun




On 01.04.2013 19:36, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:
When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its chief source 
of information, but only the "connecting words" are parallel, not the names 
themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?

E.g., what I see on the t.p.:

Mit Beiträgen von/With contributions by ...
hg. von/ed. by ...

Is simply transcribing what I see enough, or should the "/" be replaced with " 
= "?

Mit Beiträgen von = With contributions by ... ; hg. von = ed. by 


Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137





--

-

Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.

Stuttgart Media University

Faculty of Information and Communication

Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany

www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi<http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi>

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Deborah Fritz]

I agree with Heidrun that you could apply 1.7.7 Letters or Words Intended to
Be Read More Than Once

“If a letter or word appears only once but the design of the source of
information makes it clear that it is intended to be read more than once,
repeat the letter or word.”

 

Notice that this instruction is in 1.7, which is the general guidelines on
transcription, so it applies to the Statement of Responsibility.

 

So:

/ mit Beiträgen von … ; hg. von … = with contributions by ... ; ed. by …
(assuming that the abbreviations are on the resource)

 

The order of the statements (keeping the terms in the same language
together) is from ISBD2007 p. 91

 

Deborah

 

 

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  

Deborah Fritz

TMQ, Inc.

 <mailto:debo...@marcofquality.com> debo...@marcofquality.com

 <http://www.marcofquality.com> www.marcofquality.com

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 2:12 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

 

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to 1.7.3, as it
obviously is a case of parallel statements of responsibility (i.e. two
different RDA elements). But I'd find it odd to have only "Mit Beiträgen
von" as one of these statements of responsibility. As this is only an
introductory phrase, it somehow seems to miss the point.

I wonder if we could solve this problem by making use of RDA 1.7.7 "Letters
or Words Intended to Be Read More Than Once": "If a letter or word appears
only once but the design of the source of information makes it clear that it
is intended to be read more than once, repeat the letter or word."

Perhaps we could argue that on these title pages, the names are intended to
be read twice, once with the German introductory phrase, and a second time
with the English introductory phrase. Then you'd have:

mit Beiträgen von X, Y, Z = with contributions by X, Y, Z ; hg. von A = ed.
by A

Does that make sense?

Heidrun




On 01.04.2013 19:36, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:

When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its chief
source of information, but only the "connecting words" are parallel, not the
names themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?

 

E.g., what I see on the t.p.:

 

Mit Beiträgen von/With contributions by ...

hg. von/ed. by ...

 

Is simply transcribing what I see enough, or should the "/" be replaced with
" = "?

 

Mit Beiträgen von = With contributions by ... ; hg. von = ed. by 

 

 

Thanks, 
Ben

 

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137

 






-- 
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] 2.4.3.3 Parallel statements of responsibility

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

Ben,

I think the "/" should indeed be replaced by a "=" according to 1.7.3, 
as it obviously is a case of parallel statements of responsibility (i.e. 
two different RDA elements). But I'd find it odd to have only "Mit 
Beiträgen von" as one of these statements of responsibility. As this is 
only an introductory phrase, it somehow seems to miss the point.


I wonder if we could solve this problem by making use of RDA 1.7.7 
"Lettersor Words Intended to Be Read More Than Once": "If a letter or 
word appears only once but the design of the source of information makes 
it clear that it is intended to be read more than once, repeat the 
letter or word."


Perhaps we could argue that on these title pages, the names are intended 
to be read twice, once with the German introductory phrase, and a second 
time with the English introductory phrase. Then you'd have:


mit Beiträgen von X, Y, Z = with contributions by X, Y, Z ; hg. von A = 
ed. by A


Does that make sense?

Heidrun




On 01.04.2013 19:36, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:


When a resource has parallel statements of responsibility on its chief 
source of information, but only the "connecting words" are parallel, 
not the names themselves, how does one treat this under RDA?


E.g., what I see on the t.p.:

Mit Beiträgen von/With contributions by ...

hg. von/ed. by ...

Is simply transcribing what I see enough, or should the "/" be 
replaced with " = "?


Mit Beiträgen von = With contributions by ... ; hg. von = ed. by 

Thanks,
Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse

Cataloging Coordinator

Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems

MIT Libraries

617-253-7137




--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi