Re: Purchasing a new system
DLT has not addressed that issue. Since linear pulls the tape across the heads at a faster rate (150 inches per second vs helical scan's .5"/second), it requires streaming -- otherwise you end up "shoe-shining". This reposition is very intense on the heads/tape of a linear drive. This applies to more than just DLT. Anything linear can suffer from this. 4mm, AIT and M2 are not plagued with this problem. Not really. AIT and DAT and I assume M2 spin the heads and slow down the tape but the relative speeds are in the same neighborhood. (I assume it's easier to spin the heads faster than move the tape faster which is why DLT appears to be falling behind in the race.) Anyway, you still need to keep the data flowing at the speed of the drive or it will stop streaming and get into tape stuttering or rewinds to reposition. This also causes a large loss in tape capacity as there's a lot of recording overhead in starting or stopping a stream. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
RE: Purchasing a new system
Definitely. Every technology needs streaming data for optimized performance. One cool thing about M2, it has a huge buffer (32MB). AIT-2 has 8MB. M2 uses this larger buffer to help adjust for varying host speeds. M2 can vary its tape speed to match the host. With so much memory, it can cache more files and flush the buffer accordingly. M2 is more expensive than the AIT series, but less expensive than a DLT 8000. I personally don't know why anyone would buy a DLT 8000 knowing M2 is 2x faster, 50% larger per tape and costs less. Only guys who need backward read compatibility have been buying DLT from us these days. Now that they know generation I of the SDLT (SuperDLT) will not be backward compatible with previous DLT formats, many of them have been moving to AIT and M2 (which promise larger capacities with future generations and complete backward compatibility). This explains why you can find so many DLT drives on eBay. Steve Cybernetics www.cybernetics.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Ross Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 11:22 AM To: retro-talk Subject: Re: Purchasing a new system DLT has not addressed that issue. Since linear pulls the tape across the heads at a faster rate (150 inches per second vs helical scan's .5"/second), it requires streaming -- otherwise you end up "shoe-shining". This reposition is very intense on the heads/tape of a linear drive. This applies to more than just DLT. Anything linear can suffer from this. 4mm, AIT and M2 are not plagued with this problem. Not really. AIT and DAT and I assume M2 spin the heads and slow down the tape but the relative speeds are in the same neighborhood. (I assume it's easier to spin the heads faster than move the tape faster which is why DLT appears to be falling behind in the race.) Anyway, you still need to keep the data flowing at the speed of the drive or it will stop streaming and get into tape stuttering or rewinds to reposition. This also causes a large loss in tape capacity as there's a lot of recording overhead in starting or stopping a stream. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system (tape drive performance)
Not really. AIT and DAT and I assume M2 spin the heads and slow down the tape but the relative speeds are in the same neighborhood. (I assume it's easier to spin the heads faster than move the tape faster which is why DLT appears to be falling behind in the race.) Anyway, you still need to keep the data flowing at the speed of the drive or it will stop streaming and get into tape stuttering or rewinds to reposition. This also causes a large loss in tape capacity as there's a lot of recording overhead in starting or stopping a stream. The loss in capacity comes from the drive's attempt to continue tape motion while waiting for new data to arrive in the write buffer. No data is recorded while the tape continues to move forward. This "long gap" strategy has been in use since the advent of 6250 bpi 1/2" reel-to-reel drives. The latest generation of cartridge drives, whether or helical scan all implement some form of intelligence, in the drive, to slow the tape transport or insert gaps in the data and thus adapt to the rate at which data is arriving to the drive. If network congestion or system loading eventually exceed some limit, the drive must fully stop the tape motion and rewind slightly in order to reposition before restarting recording when the data level in the buffer reaches a high water mark. Repositioning of DLT drives is a simpler process than for helical scan drives due the latter's capstain effect (binding friction due to head rotation and tape motion interference). Sailor's used to the effect of a "cat head" will find this concept to be intuitive. A linear drive (DLT, LTO, 3590E etc) does not need to reduce tape tension during the reverse motion. A helical scan drive (Exabyte (all), DDS-DAT, AIT and high end drives from Sony and Ampex) must be much more careful in its handling of the tape to avoid stretching of the media due to slapping or binding of the tape loops during the change of motion direction. The wear-and-tear effect of tape repositioning (aka "shoe shining") is the predominant factor in the differences in drive reliability and performance observed by different users. Those who have had bad exeriences with one drive type or another can most often trace an explanation back to system and network loading or limited bandwidth, memory or other resources...not to the drives. Doug.Wyman Houston TX -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
RE: Purchasing a new system
Pardon my ignorance but I visited your site and did not see any mention of this M2 format? Where can I get details on it? David -Original Message- From: Stephen Jones [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 11:50 AM To: 'retro-talk' Subject:RE: Purchasing a new system Definitely. Every technology needs streaming data for optimized performance. One cool thing about M2, it has a huge buffer (32MB). AIT-2 has 8MB. M2 uses this larger buffer to help adjust for varying host speeds. M2 can vary its tape speed to match the host. With so much memory, it can cache more files and flush the buffer accordingly. M2 is more expensive than the AIT series, but less expensive than a DLT 8000. I personally don't know why anyone would buy a DLT 8000 knowing M2 is 2x faster, 50% larger per tape and costs less. Only guys who need backward read compatibility have been buying DLT from us these days. Now that they know generation I of the SDLT (SuperDLT) will not be backward compatible with previous DLT formats, many of them have been moving to AIT and M2 (which promise larger capacities with future generations and complete backward compatibility). This explains why you can find so many DLT drives on eBay. Steve Cybernetics www.cybernetics.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Ross Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 11:22 AM To: retro-talk Subject: Re: Purchasing a new system DLT has not addressed that issue. Since linear pulls the tape across the heads at a faster rate (150 inches per second vs helical scan's .5"/second), it requires streaming -- otherwise you end up "shoe-shining". This reposition is very intense on the heads/tape of a linear drive. This applies to more than just DLT. Anything linear can suffer from this. 4mm, AIT and M2 are not plagued with this problem. Not really. AIT and DAT and I assume M2 spin the heads and slow down the tape but the relative speeds are in the same neighborhood. (I assume it's easier to spin the heads faster than move the tape faster which is why DLT appears to be falling behind in the race.) Anyway, you still need to keep the data flowing at the speed of the drive or it will stop streaming and get into tape stuttering or rewinds to reposition. This also causes a large loss in tape capacity as there's a lot of recording overhead in starting or stopping a stream. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system
Yet another thought about backups. Currently we have a dedicated NT server with 280 GB of cheap IDE drives inside. Multiple times, in a day, it duplicates the changes from critical servers (two remotely). The changes are usually no more than 300 MB per execution. The duplication serves several purposes... 1) If for any reason the original server fails the data (accurate to within 4-12 hours) can be immediately published from the backup server. 2) Tape backup speeds, of the local drives, average between 360-520 MB minute. 3) Saves wear and tear on the tape system for remote or slow backups. Currently we are using an Exabyte EZ-17 Autoloader with a Mammoth 2 drive. I did not consider a DLT as several years ago I learned that, when backing up data, DLT needed to be constantly streaming data. The process of stopping and starting caused excessive wear on the unit. Currently, I have not been able to find anyone to confirm this has been overcome. For workstations we use a HP DDS-3 tape drive with a Mac G3. It runs several backup server scripts, which backup workstations daily. The backups are to multiple files. Each backup file is reset after 2 months with a different one being reset each 2 weeks. These are then backed up to tape monthly. I know this has a problem of figuring out which archived tape the workstation's data may be on. Our expectation is that, any recovery from a workstation (not server) are files that are two months old or less, which are continually online. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
RE: Purchasing a new system
DLT has not addressed that issue. Since linear pulls the tape across the heads at a faster rate (150 inches per second vs helical scan's .5"/second), it requires streaming -- otherwise you end up "shoe-shining". This reposition is very intense on the heads/tape of a linear drive. This applies to more than just DLT. Anything linear can suffer from this. 4mm, AIT and M2 are not plagued with this problem. Steve www.cybernetics.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Lapham Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 3:59 PM To: retro-talk Subject: Re: Purchasing a new system Yet another thought about backups. Currently we have a dedicated NT server with 280 GB of cheap IDE drives inside. Multiple times, in a day, it duplicates the changes from critical servers (two remotely). The changes are usually no more than 300 MB per execution. The duplication serves several purposes... 1) If for any reason the original server fails the data (accurate to within 4-12 hours) can be immediately published from the backup server. 2) Tape backup speeds, of the local drives, average between 360-520 MB minute. 3) Saves wear and tear on the tape system for remote or slow backups. Currently we are using an Exabyte EZ-17 Autoloader with a Mammoth 2 drive. I did not consider a DLT as several years ago I learned that, when backing up data, DLT needed to be constantly streaming data. The process of stopping and starting caused excessive wear on the unit. Currently, I have not been able to find anyone to confirm this has been overcome. For workstations we use a HP DDS-3 tape drive with a Mac G3. It runs several backup server scripts, which backup workstations daily. The backups are to multiple files. Each backup file is reset after 2 months with a different one being reset each 2 weeks. These are then backed up to tape monthly. I know this has a problem of figuring out which archived tape the workstation's data may be on. Our expectation is that, any recovery from a workstation (not server) are files that are two months old or less, which are continually online. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system
I'm not planning on taking the discussion offlist, though I've had a few responses offlist, and those have recommended Ecrix or AIT, so those are the leading contenders. My boss is really leery of Ecrix, no matter how much I push it. She's worried that, should something happen to the company in two years or so (since they're the only one doing this kind of tape/drive now), we won't have the $$ in our budget to purchase a whole new system. I keep working on her. :) At 12:56 PM -0500 1/24/01, Tim David wrote: I can't speak for everyone but I hope you keep this discussion on the list. If it does happen to go off-line, I would greatly appreciate a copy of the final thoughts. There was a thread that went around a couple of months ago with price comparisons for all of these different media types (including hardware and media) but I'm sure it's already outdated. The VXA drive from Ecrix looked like it had potential for a smaller setup due to it's price of drives and media. The media also looks very reliable according to the material on their web site. I am currently using DLT and it gets a little expensive to stay as redundant as I would like to be. I've noticed that Ecrix is coming out with larger tape libraries, Does anyone think that will make it a more viable solution or is AIT still the way to go? thanks, Tim Stephen Jones wrote: I would have to say AIT. Sony pulled the plug on the proposed DDS-5 so I wouldn't suggest that line at all (end of product life). Also, DAT drives have 1/5th the head life expectancy (10,000 hours instead of AIT's 50,000 hours). DLT would definitely be better than DAT but is faced with the same situation as 4mm. The current best DLT is the 8000 series. It's 40GB uncompressed by 6MB/second. The Gen I version of the upcoming SuperDLT will *NOT* be backward compatible. Are you prepared to purchase something that will not work with the very next version of the hardware? AIT, also made by Sony, gives you two choices (AIT-1 and AIT-2). AIT-1 (35GB/3MB/second uncompressed) inside a library costs less than $4500 and holds 525GB uncompressed. AIT-2 is 50GB by 6MB/second (and is considerably less than a DLT library - it's also self-cleaning, DLT is not). AIT-2 is backward compatible (read and write) with AIT-1. You could start with AIT-1 and upgrade to AIT-2 in the future should you need more capacity and speed -- and use the very same library chassis. AIT-3 (100GB by 12MB/second) is due out later this year and is backward compatible with AIT-1 and 2. When AIT-4 hits the street two years form now (a proposed 200GB by 24MB/second), it too will be backward compatible with all previous AIT generations. DLT, up to a couple years ago, was definitely king of the hill. But in the game of technology, no one stands paramount indefinitely. AIT has definitely become more popular -- with a roadmap to larger/faster drives while remaining backward compatible. I was surprised to hear the news that DLT could not offer backward compatibility with their upcoming SuperDLT drive. We have many DLT customers who will not be able to upgrade. In fact, because of that, a lot of our DLT customers have moved to AIT. Please feel free to contact me with any tech questions, I have been a storage engineer for ten years and work with all formats daily. All the best! Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system
I can't speak for everyone but I hope you keep this discussion on the list. If it does happen to go off-line, I would greatly appreciate a copy of the final thoughts. I agree. IMHO the biggest problem with tape drives is not the purchase cost or the tape costs, but the sheer level of grief caused by hardware faults. That's why I would always prefer a solution with some hardware rdundancy - if one drive fails you can still backup - or, more to the point, still restore. Because the one occasion when you _must_ restore files will, of course, be the time that your only drive has just died. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system
I've noticed that Ecrix is coming out with larger tape libraries, Does anyone think that will make it a more viable solution or is AIT still the way to go? Hi Tim, Ecrix has tape libraries (they call them autopacks) already in service. And VXA-2 is right around the corner. AIT is a great solution, indeed, but I've found that Ecrix's solution is just as good and WAY big less expensive. $.02 Pam -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system
...in that case, go with Sony's AIT-2. The company is certainly in no danger and they also have a road map to higher capacity and performance. Both VXA and AIT use evaporated metal media rather than particulate media making head life and drive reliability a plus. Avoid cold/condensing environments for both of these 8mm helical scan drives. If at all possible, get a demo unit and understand the issues surrounding system/bus/LAN/drive bandwidth and loading. The variable speed feature of the VXA drive could change the recommendation if tape shoe-shining becomes a problem in your situation. The AIT drives are more expensive but, that's the cost of the "insurance policy" your boss favors. On the other hand, your boss should ALWAYS plan on periodic replacement of backup tape drives: - tape drives are mechanically complex devices and do wear out - waiting for a backup device to fail before replacement is sabotage by neglect - 2 drives are worth more than twice the price because they provide for offline copying of backup sets and an additional method of troubleshooting problems Disclaimer: I have no fiduciary interest in Ecrix or Sony and use both AIT and VXA drives on a variety of systems and operating systems. Doug.Wyman I'm not planning on taking the discussion offlist, though I've had a few responses offlist, and those have recommended Ecrix or AIT, so those are the leading contenders. My boss is really leery of Ecrix, no matter how much I push it. She's worried that, should something happen to the company in two years or so (since they're the only one doing this kind of tape/drive now), we won't have the $$ in our budget to purchase a whole new system. I keep working on her. :) At 12:56 PM -0500 1/24/01, Tim David wrote: I can't speak for everyone but I hope you keep this discussion on the list. If it does happen to go off-line, I would greatly appreciate a copy of the final thoughts. There was a thread that went around a couple of months ago with price comparisons for all of these different media types (including hardware and media) but I'm sure it's already outdated. The VXA drive from Ecrix looked like it had potential for a smaller setup due to it's price of drives and media. The media also looks very reliable according to the material on their web site. I am currently using DLT and it gets a little expensive to stay as redundant as I would like to be. I've noticed that Ecrix is coming out with larger tape libraries, Does anyone think that will make it a more viable solution or is AIT still the way to go? thanks, Tim Stephen Jones wrote: I would have to say AIT. Sony pulled the plug on the proposed DDS-5 so I wouldn't suggest that line at all (end of product life). Also, DAT drives have 1/5th the head life expectancy (10,000 hours instead of AIT's 50,000 hours). DLT would definitely be better than DAT but is faced with the same situation as 4mm. The current best DLT is the 8000 series. It's 40GB uncompressed by 6MB/second. The Gen I version of the upcoming SuperDLT will *NOT* be backward compatible. Are you prepared to purchase something that will not work with the very next version of the hardware? AIT, also made by Sony, gives you two choices (AIT-1 and AIT-2). AIT-1 (35GB/3MB/second uncompressed) inside a library costs less than $4500 and holds 525GB uncompressed. AIT-2 is 50GB by 6MB/second (and is considerably less than a DLT library - it's also self-cleaning, DLT is not). AIT-2 is backward compatible (read and write) with AIT-1. You could start with AIT-1 and upgrade to AIT-2 in the future should you need more capacity and speed -- and use the very same library chassis. AIT-3 (100GB by 12MB/second) is due out later this year and is backward compatible with AIT-1 and 2. When AIT-4 hits the street two years form now (a proposed 200GB by 24MB/second), it too will be backward compatible with all previous AIT generations. DLT, up to a couple years ago, was definitely king of the hill. But in the game of technology, no one stands paramount indefinitely. AIT has definitely become more popular -- with a roadmap to larger/faster drives while remaining backward compatible. I was surprised to hear the news that DLT could not offer backward compatibility with their upcoming SuperDLT drive. We have many DLT customers who will not be able to upgrade. In fact, because of that, a lot of our DLT customers have moved to AIT. Please feel free to contact me with any tech questions, I have been a storage engineer for ten years and work with all formats daily. All the best! Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Purchasing a new system
My boss is really leery of Ecrix, no matter how much I push it. She's worried that, should something happen to the company in two years or so (since they're the only one doing this kind of tape/drive now), we won't have the $$ in our budget to purchase a whole new system. I keep working on her. :) Julia, I don't buy that argument. What if Sony decides to stop making AIT's? Then what? Sony's AIT is just as proprietary as Ecrix's VXA. After all, isn't the MacOS proprietary -- now? And DLT was proprietary at the beginning too. I look at it like this...somebody has to be the first and they're going to work with their proprietary formula until some other company decides to pay the licensing or OEM (or whatever they're called in hardware) fees. Pam -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
RE: Purchasing a new system
I have to put my .02 in here. Although I had initially had issues with Ecrix I believe there technology if far superior to what is available on the market at the same price. Since I know have it working it hasn't failed me yet. I do nightly full backups of 18 gig at 247 meg/min. Adam -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Pam Lefkowitz Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 2:45 PM To: retro-talk Subject: Re: Purchasing a new system My boss is really leery of Ecrix, no matter how much I push it. She's worried that, should something happen to the company in two years or so (since they're the only one doing this kind of tape/drive now), we won't have the $$ in our budget to purchase a whole new system. I keep working on her. :) Julia, I don't buy that argument. What if Sony decides to stop making AIT's? Then what? Sony's AIT is just as proprietary as Ecrix's VXA. After all, isn't the MacOS proprietary -- now? And DLT was proprietary at the beginning too. I look at it like this...somebody has to be the first and they're going to work with their proprietary formula until some other company decides to pay the licensing or OEM (or whatever they're called in hardware) fees. Pam -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050. -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
RE: Purchasing a new system
Julia, I can't speak for the other tape formats but I have always used DLT as it seems to be the "Industry Standard". I would recommend taking a look at the HP series of Autoloaders. I use an HP SureStore 818 which holds up to (8) 40GB Tapes (80GB compressed) so I can store up to 640GB on a set. In reality I only use 6 tapes in the magazine to keep things more manageable so I can get up to 480GB on a magazine set. We also have lots of single DLT drives around but I only use those for special tasks. So far It's been working out very well . Here's a link to the HP series of products for you http://www.products.storage.hp.com/eprise/main/storage/DisplayPages/storagei ndex.htm David Kraut Alpharetta, GA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office 770-664-4047 Direct 678-228-3109 Fax 770-664-2850 Cell678-570-6831 -Original Message- From: Julia Frizzell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 10:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Purchasing a new system Hello folks! We recently got our funding for another 5 years from the federal government, and including in our first year budgeting is the money for a new backup system. I'm not planning on leaving Retrospect behind, so all I really need help with is a new tape drive system. Currently, we are using one DDS-3 tape drive for our entire local base of about 70 users. About 65 of those are Mac users, and about 5 are Windows NT boxen. We also have 7 Mac machines that are various servers, and 3 NT servers. For the users, we only back up their bookmarks.html file and their Documents folder (using ASR we can restore a desktop in little time, so there's no real need to backup the entire hard drive), and *currently* we only back up the My Documents folder for the NT user boxen, and specific directories for our servers. The desktops are backed up to tape nightly, with the laptops being backed up to tape during the day by a backup server. The servers are backed up weekly to hard drive (only exception being our Staff volume getting backed up nightly). The main reason for the latter is that we don't have anyone to do a tape switch after the Friday backup, I think (this system was in place before I got here). We change the nightly tapes daily, with incrementals M-Th, and a recycle backup on Friday. I alternate tapes weekly, with an A set and a B set. What I would like to do: The backup server system mentioned by Craig last week sounds like it would work great for me. I want to back up the servers nightly as well, which will increase the space each set takes up. I am also interested in doing a remote backup of our NYC office. They have static IPs, and could possibly be added to our backup sets. They have laptops and desktops, and I'm just not sure if I want to go that route, but it's a possibility. But on the other hand, if we do get a new tape drive, we could send them our old one and they could use that to backup. So, should I keep the same tape system (DDS-3) and get a new drive (auto-loader), get an additional drive (poor man's auto-loader), or go with something new? I have the archive of this list from last year, when someone went through and priced the different drives...ah, found it! [see below] DDS-3 was second to Ecrix (oh, it's pronounced ah-kree! Just noticed that on their web page. I'll have to stop calling it eh-cricks :). Oh, Retrospect is running on a Mac vanilla G3. It *could* possibly be run on a MP G4, with a SCSI card or maybe Firewire/USB if that was the way to go. Advice would be appreciated. At 1:36 AM -0700 8/3/00, Larry Acosta Wong wrote: [only part of message enclosed] Tran#Tapes Total True Model (GB) RatePrice Media Req'd Price $/GB --- VXA-1 333MB/s$539 $6712 $1,343 $3.39 DDS-3 121MB/s$777 $1627 $1,209 $3.73 DDS-24 .51MB/s$606 $775 $1,131 $3.77 SC30152MB/s$438 $4121 $1,299 $4.12 ADR50 252MB/s$697 $4612 $1,249 $4.16 VXA-1 333MB/s$939 $6712 $1,743 $4.40 Eliant 820 71MB/s $1,160 $845 $1,520 $4.83 DDS-4 203MB/s $1,072 $3315 $1,567 $5.22 Mammoth-LT 142MB/s $1,193 $3524 $2,033 $6.05 DLT 400020 1.5MB/s $1,352 $6415 $2,312 $7.71 Sony AIT-1 353MB/s $1,913 $88 9 $2,705 $8.59 Mammoth 203MB/s $2,126 $5615 $2,966 $9.89 Exabyte M2 60 12MB/s $3,777 $80 6 $4,257 $11.83 DLT 8000406MB/s $3,915 $64 9 $4,491 $12.48 Sony AIT-2 506MB/s $3,289 $94 6 $3,853 $12.84 For this comparison, I've included the VXA-1 at the promotional price since it's been extended through Aug and is available to everyone. The total cost of DDS-3 is actually $134 cheaper than the VXA-1 but the
RE: Purchasing a new system
I would have to say AIT. Sony pulled the plug on the proposed DDS-5 so I wouldn't suggest that line at all (end of product life). Also, DAT drives have 1/5th the head life expectancy (10,000 hours instead of AIT's 50,000 hours). DLT would definitely be better than DAT but is faced with the same situation as 4mm. The current best DLT is the 8000 series. It's 40GB uncompressed by 6MB/second. The Gen I version of the upcoming SuperDLT will *NOT* be backward compatible. Are you prepared to purchase something that will not work with the very next version of the hardware? AIT, also made by Sony, gives you two choices (AIT-1 and AIT-2). AIT-1 (35GB/3MB/second uncompressed) inside a library costs less than $4500 and holds 525GB uncompressed. AIT-2 is 50GB by 6MB/second (and is considerably less than a DLT library - it's also self-cleaning, DLT is not). AIT-2 is backward compatible (read and write) with AIT-1. You could start with AIT-1 and upgrade to AIT-2 in the future should you need more capacity and speed -- and use the very same library chassis. AIT-3 (100GB by 12MB/second) is due out later this year and is backward compatible with AIT-1 and 2. When AIT-4 hits the street two years form now (a proposed 200GB by 24MB/second), it too will be backward compatible with all previous AIT generations. DLT, up to a couple years ago, was definitely king of the hill. But in the game of technology, no one stands paramount indefinitely. AIT has definitely become more popular -- with a roadmap to larger/faster drives while remaining backward compatible. I was surprised to hear the news that DLT could not offer backward compatibility with their upcoming SuperDLT drive. We have many DLT customers who will not be able to upgrade. In fact, because of that, a lot of our DLT customers have moved to AIT. Please feel free to contact me with any tech questions, I have been a storage engineer for ten years and work with all formats daily. All the best! Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
Re: Purchasing a new system
Julia Currently, we are using one DDS-3 tape drive for our entire local base of about 70 users I am also interested in doing a remote backup of our NYC office. They have static IPs, and could possibly be added to our backup sets. So, should I keep the same tape system (DDS-3) and get a new drive (auto-loader), get an additional drive (poor man's auto-loader), or go with something new? Oh, Retrospect is running on a Mac vanilla G3. It *could* possibly be run on a MP G4, with a SCSI card or maybe Firewire/USB if that was the way to go. I'd replace the DDS3 drive immediately - they only last 2-3 years in my experience so you're probably on borrowed time already. I'd do the remote office over TCP/IP, either to your new tape drive or to a holding disc then to tape. Then I'd get an Exabyte M2 or a rackmount dual-drive Ecrix to back up to. That way, even with addituonal data to be backed up, you should be able to complete the backup overnight without changing tapes. Regards PS - I would strogly recommend not re-using the DDS drive anywhere. If you need another drive get another Exabyte or an Ecrix. Another Ecrix won't break the bank, and then you have drive redundancy... -- -- To subscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives:http://list.working-dogs.com/lists/retro-talk/ Search: http://www.mail-archive.com/retro-talk%40latchkey.com/ For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
