Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/28/2008 12:27:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You really, really need to check your facts. Clyburn was on the fence for months. Clyburn was not a Clinton supporter. Neither was Pelosi or Brazile. All of this fence sitting was a farce. Like many blacks in this country (me included) he was leaning toward Hillary Clinton. But Obama's success, with whites coupled with the Clinton's increasingly hostile and dirty tactics, I don't understand why it is so wrong to attafck your opponet. She was his rival. What were they supposed to do, have a duel? Jeez Louise. She was a white woman attacking a black man. I guess that was the problem. made him lean toward Obama. I watched Clyburn in a live interview say that he called Bill Clinton personally to tell him he was going with Obama, and Clinton cussed at him. I heard Richardson say Clinton went off on him. Hell, Teddy Kennedy said the Clintons went off on him too. John Lewis here in Atlanta called to tell them, and he too said it didn't go well. I liked and like Bill and Hillary, but they did this to themselves. You call Clyburn a dog, but it was the Clintons who acted like brutes, cursing and threatening and attacking people for having the temerity to back someone else. Tonight at the DNC, Clyburn said he liked the Clintons, still likes the Clintons. I have no problem with them, he said.He then said he still felt some of their comments could have been interpreted as racist, but that he still had no enduring problem with them. Clybrun warned the Clintons that they should fall in line unless she and her supporters were going to lose their seat. How is that the posture of an angry dog? And I'm really, really confused. What did Obama do to Hillary? How can you in the same night attack Obama and men for a sexist plot against Hillary, then say she came out swinging and he was meek. I never said that she was meek. She is a woman. Vilified for be a hard core bithc. Something that men don't like. She lost this fight, and you are saying you'll never vote for him. No I will not. You are Black right? Yes Then tell me how a respectful Black man like Obama who speaks with nothing but respect for women is worse than McCain, who called his wife the c-word in public? He said that he did not. Tell me how you have contempt for Obama who has an intelligent, educated wife who I believe will bring more respect to the First Lady, while going with don't-say-too-much Cindy McCain? I do not vote for first lady. You're entitled to your opinion, that's the American way. But if I could understand it as something other than an odd hatred of Obama, or men, or Black men-- LOL not this ish again. I am not a bitter lesbian. or all three--that'd be nice. If you think a white multi-millionaire like john McCain who supported a senseless invasion that will cost us trillions is better for you than a Black man who understands the struggles of being both Black and not wealthy, that's your right. That black man has not proven he undestands the sturggle of people. He cars about the corporations that put him there. I'm tired, mad at myself for staying up this late and doing this instead of writing or job searching. Me too. It is the same fight when this topic comes up. But I say again--and finally--you seem to have a lot of hostility. Oh oh. Angry bitchlesbian Hillary support. Keith we both agreed las time that I was not hostile. I've read all your posts, and they seem to have a common theme of hatred for men, Lesbian aler. Lesbian alert!!! hatred for Black men, 40 plus cant find a man and over weight. All the brothers date outside their race! LOL! and contempt for Black people who dare say the world's not fair to them. The world is not fair. Especially to blacks who are moderates or republicans. i just don't get it Liberals never do. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/28/2008 12:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You tend to get personal with people, Gymfig. Why is that? I disagree with you, but I don't get personal and LOsay stuff like nothing is ever humble with you. Keith are a very in depth writher and at times wordy. I know that everytine that see your posts you have something to say. It was not a personal attack. You have often joked about it yourself. That's insulting. You don't know me on the level to say I'm never humble. I think Tracey and Martin and many people in this group--with whom I've had civil discussions--would tell you i'm not arrogant, self-righteous, or intractable in my opinions. I never said that. Keith my family came from humber beginnings too. My fahter had to work and suppor the family. My mother and aunt had law and education degress. But I'm not a dunce, have opinions, and just beause I disagree with you, please don't say stuff like that. I never calle dyou stupid or other names. How dare you make such stuff up. I don't want to say this, but you honestly strike me as someone who dislikes Black people, and Black men in particular. How long are you going to use this agument. I wont vote for a black man or black wman. I criticize popular black political thought. I do not see racism everywhere. Where do you get your viewpoints. I notice that you speak with contempt-not disagreement, but contempt--whenever racism is mentioned. At times there is no racism. Rather than agree that racism still exists, and then say something like but it isn't our only problem (which all of us would agree on) you put down all Black people as seeking to be victims. It is true. I have issue with the afrocentric way of thinking. But you always take the truth of racism--even when it's only one part of a much more complex discussion--and rake us over the coals for that. Like what. Why I enjoy the white Green Latern over the Black one? Keith I have not yelled at you, denoucned men at all. Also, what is your deal with men? I've noticed over and over and over that you seize on stuff and start this women can't make it work because of men talk. Where have I said that. You are taking small conversatons and framing them into I hate men. Frankly, you cry sexism way more than anyone in this group has ever cried racism. It's like this thing with Obama. You keep saying he's just a man, and that Hillary as a woman never had a chance. There are people who will not vote for a woman as president of the US. No matter how hard you try, it will nto happen. Hillary had negative. Bill had alot of negative. At the end of the day, Biden was a working class, Catholic conservative codewords for safe white male. The same working class Dems that would never vote for Obam because he is black and vote for Hillary because she was white and was conservative. The boys club has only gotten darker. You find all these examples of how sexism keeps women down. You diminish the accomplishment of a man of color as nothing, as if only a woman president would have any meaning. I nevver said what Obama did was nothing.You are greasping for insult. The primaries are over. A woman president would have great meaning in this world. I know what her problems were. Yet despite all this, despite the obvious and rampant racism, Obama and his wife never made a huge deal of it. Did they discuss it? Of course they did not make a fuss. It would have looke bad and would not have worked in this change theme. Whatever happened to you in life to make you self-hating, man-bashing, and self-pitying, I'm sorry for it. Keith I was trying to be nice. You talk to damn much to get your point across. I am not bitter nor mean nor man hating nor vile. Hillary lost. I will support McCain. These are my people too. I will question some of our beliefs in order to move foward. I iwll not tow the line just because non one wants to saks themselves these qustions. These are not hard questions. They are just to make us think. Hillary got a clue--it's time you did too. Good Night **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
(standing ovation, and awaiting your literary debut) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQUxw9aUVik --- On Thu, 8/28/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 1:26 AM You really, really need to check your facts. Clyburn was on the fence for months. Like many blacks in this country (me included) he was leaning toward Hillary Clinton. But Obama's success, coupled with the Clinton's increasingly hostile and dirty tactics, made him lean toward Obama. I watched Clyburn in a live interview say that he called Bill Clinton personally to tell him he was going with Obama, and Clinton cussed at him. I heard Richardson say Clinton went off on him. Hell, Teddy Kennedy said the Clintons went off on him too. John Lewis here in Atlanta called to tell them, and he too said it didn't go well. I liked and like Bill and Hillary, but they did this to themselves. You call Clyburn a dog, but it was the Clintons who acted like brutes, cursing and threatening and attacking people for having the temerity to back someone else. Tonight at the DNC, Clyburn said he liked the Clintons, still likes the Clintons. I have no problem with them, he said.He then said he still felt some of their comments could have been interpreted as racist, but that he still had no enduring problem with them. How is that the posture of an angry dog? And I'm really, really confused. What did Obama do to Hillary? How can you in the same night attack Obama and men for a sexist plot against Hillary, then say she came out swinging and he was meek. She lost this fight, and you are saying you'll never vote for him. You are Black right? Then tell me how a respectful Black man like Obama who speaks with nothing but respect for women is worse than McCain, who called his wife the c-word in public? Tell me how you have contempt for Obama who has an intelligent, educated wife who I believe will bring more respect to the First Lady, while going with don't-say-too- much Cindy McCain? You're entitled to your opinion, that's the American way. But if I could understand it as something other than an odd hatred of Obama, or men, or Black men--or all three--that' d be nice. If you think a white multi-millionaire like john McCain who supported a senseless invasion that will cost us trillions is better for you than a Black man who understands the struggles of being both Black and not wealthy, that's your right. I'm tired, mad at myself for staying up this late and doing this instead of writing or job searching. But I say again--and finally--you seem to have a lot of hostility. I've read all your posts, and they seem to have a common theme of hatred for men, hatred for Black men, and contempt for Black people who dare say the world's not fair to them. i just don't get it. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:56:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, KeithBJohnson@ comcast.net writes: Maybe, but he never resorted to the nasty, name-calling, baiting, disparaging, disrespectful tactics the Clintons did. No he had his rotweiler Clyburn and other blacks do it. He had those who hated Hilary do it. When Hillary was belittling him as nothing but a one-speech guy, who was respectfully disagreeing with her. when she shot nasty and really angry comments at him during their debates, Please I watched those debates. She did not let him get away with anything. She cam out swinging. He never fought back. He played the meek nice guy care. If the moderater talked about his problems, people felt sorry for him. *gag* he acted with calm and class and made his point, firmly. And I believe that had he lost, he'd have been out there doing his level best to help the Clintons win, despite how they treated him. What did Hillary and Bill do at first? Acted like poor losers, dropped out of sight, Bill going so far as to leave the country rather than be asked to campaign for Obama. They're getting their stuff together now, but it took a while. I say this as someone who liked Hillary long past the point when many men and women hated her, who defended many of her deeds as just tough politics, who sat in indecision for long moments in the booth here in Atlanta before finally casting my vote for Obama. I don't have a problem with her as a woman or anything like that. I just have a problem with the way they let their campaign against Obama degenerate. They messed up big, and everyone seems to realize that, them included. That is why I am voting McCain. There is nothing Hilary can not and say to make me vote for that man. She had it in her grasp and she lost it. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
Gymfig, I must be crazy for continuing this, but I do want to clear up one thing. Sayinig you have a problem with men is *not* saying you're lesbian, crazy, or a bit***. It's responses like that that confuse me. I love women, I respect women, and I am saddened at the gender battles I see in this country, especially with Black people. What I've seen from you is a hair trigger whenever men in power comes up, an immediate, loud repudiation of men--or at least Black men--out of proportion to what's said. When we discuss Obama, you say He's another man, big deal.So what' if he's black? which is disrespectul to the *kind* of man he is, and to Black people. You seem to paint all men in power with this huge brush of keeping women down, and I have to say I don't get it. While I know sexism exists and is rampant--and so is racism--the level of anger you display is offputting. Especially,again, toward generalizing people like Obama, who--say what you will about his readiness or blackness--shows so much respect for women, as do I. I think that responding to my concerns with your man bashing with an immediate, so you're calling me a crazy lesbian bi*** exemplifies an issue you have. Having problems with men does not equate to lesbianism, and unlike you, I *never* use the b-word, which I find to be derogatory and demeaning. I really feel you are bringing some prejudices to these discussions. I've looked back over many of my posts, and nothing in them can be interpreted as calling you what you said. Maybe you know a lot of men who seem to think in this twisted way, but I'm not one of them. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/28/2008 12:27:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You really, really need to check your facts. Clyburn was on the fence for months. Clyburn was not a Clinton supporter. Neither was Pelosi or Brazile. All of this fence sitting was a farce. Like many blacks in this country (me included) he was leaning toward Hillary Clinton. But Obama's success, with whites coupled with the Clinton's increasingly hostile and dirty tactics, I don't understand why it is so wrong to attafck your opponet. She was his rival. What were they supposed to do, have a duel? Jeez Louise. She was a white woman attacking a black man. I guess that was the problem. made him lean toward Obama. I watched Clyburn in a live interview say that he called Bill Clinton personally to tell him he was going with Obama, and Clinton cussed at him. I heard Richardson say Clinton went off on him. Hell, Teddy Kennedy said the Clintons went off on him too. John Lewis here in Atlanta called to tell them, and he too said it didn't go well. I liked and like Bill and Hillary, but they did this to themselves. You call Clyburn a dog, but it was the Clintons who acted like brutes, cursing and threatening and attacking people for having the temerity to back someone else. Tonight at the DNC, Clyburn said he liked the Clintons, still likes the Clintons. I have no problem with them, he said.He then said he still felt some of their comments could have been interpreted as racist, but that he still had no enduring problem with them. Clybrun warned the Clintons that they should fall in line unless she and her supporters were going to lose their seat. How is that the posture of an angry dog? And I'm really, really confused. What did Obama do to Hillary? How can you in the same night attack Obama and men for a sexist plot against Hillary, then say she came out swinging and he was meek. I never said that she was meek. She is a woman. Vilified for be a hard core bithc. Something that men don't like. She lost this fight, and you are saying you'll never vote for him. No I will not. You are Black right? Yes Then tell me how a respectful Black man like Obama who speaks with nothing but respect for women is worse than McCain, who called his wife the c-word in public? He said that he did not. Tell me how you have contempt for Obama who has an intelligent, educated wife who I believe will bring more respect to the First Lady, while going with don't-say-too-much Cindy McCain? I do not vote for first lady. You're entitled to your opinion, that's the American way. But if I could understand it as something other than an odd hatred of Obama, or men, or Black men-- LOL not this ish again. I am not a bitter lesbian. or all three--that'd be nice. If you think a white multi-millionaire like john McCain who supported a senseless invasion that will cost us trillions is better for you than a Black man who understands the struggles of being both Black and not wealthy, that's your right. That black man has not proven he undestands the sturggle of people. He cars about the corporations that put him there. I'm tired, mad at myself for staying up this late and doing this instead of writing or job searching. Me too.
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
Tired or not but everything is racist. You cant tell whites to get their act together if they own the act, the actors and the stage. Its and unfair battle of perception and we are always on the losing end. John McCain can give 2 flying cucumbers about the black community. They are not his contingent...so any comments of the like simply looks like a cheap swipe...which it would be. I respect McCain and realize many points he makes and policy ideas are more solid thank my man B. But as they say on the streets... DONT GET IT TWISTED! McCain is thirsty for the seat. I am more concerned more about what he will let happen and not what he will do. You can complain about Liberals all you want, but a step in the right direction is something we should applaud. In the words of the rap group M.O.P In order to survive the game, know the game... c w m On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 7:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 8/27/2008 7:39:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's my thoughts exactly. What I saw Clintion was in a no-win situation. It has now dawn on her that thanks to her primary actions she either has to help Obama win the election-even if it means she'll never have a decent shot of running for president. Or killing her political career, and her chance of holding her senate seat by either doing nothing, or harming Obama's chance of winning it. So she had to hit one out of the park. *But now she has to make sure that Obama wins the nod or many will blame his loss on her and endure the backlash. Which will probally end her senate career.* This is what I am tired of . I am tired of the Everything is racist. Poor Obama. I saw him in the debates with Hillary. He was horrible. However black peole were crying racism. I saw him at Saddleback. McCain was great. You can't blame that on racism. Minoriites have been force feed that nothing is there fault. It is all the racist system. Now you have all of these so called white liberals who feel proud they are not racist like their parents. We can all be stupid toghet. Give me a break. Take teen pregnacy. It used to be a black problem:. Now it is a white problem and is acceptable. You have all of these dolllars going in to stop it in the black community. However it is ballooning in the white community. When will Obama tell whites to get their act together. He won't . He will say that peopel must work together to stop problems. It will be accpetable becuse he is a Bill Cosby type of person. John McCain says the same thing and he is labeled a racist. This has NOT helped. People need to sop looking at race and look at the problem. -- It's only a deal if it's where *you* want to go. Find your travel deal * here* http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547. -- cwm blog http://centralheatingblog.blogspot.com STRING THEORY http://www.stringtheory.mypodcast.com
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/28/2008 9:57:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gymfig, I must be crazy for continuing this, but I do want to clear up one thing. Sayinig you have a problem with men is *not* saying you're lesbian, crazy, or a bit***. It's responses like that that confuse me. I love women, I respect women, and I am saddened at the gender battles I see in this country, especially with Black people. What I've seen from you is a hair trigger whenever men in power comes up, an immediate, loud repudiation of men--or at least Black men--out of proportion to what's said. When we discuss Obama, you say He's another man, big deal.So what' if he's black? which is disrespectul to the *kind* of man he is, and to Black people. It is not disrespectful at all. People may be happy that he is runnig for president. However at the end of the day he is still human. He is still a politician. He needs the same corporate money he says he despsies. He went to Wrights chuch becaue it introduced him to the right people. It iwas not a sould seac hig decision He did what others have done in the past. He is no different than anybody else. I don't see him as great figure in terms of accomplishments. I think Colin Powell is a great man. He is not a celebrity. There is a huge difference between Powell and Obama. I know that they respect one another. I would take Powell any day over Obama. Two goverenors of California were actos. They have a built in fan base. People complained about Bush and his expereince that was brought by his Daddy. Well Obam has not even finished his first term. Why should he be seen as different than Bush? Some people say that Clinton should be a supreme corut judge. Shouldn't you be a judge before you sit on the bench? Obvisouly that is not the case any more. He is just a man that gives great speeches. This election saddens to. It shows that the POTUS is just a figurehead. The real power is by lobbyists and coporations. They run this country. I am not a fan of Clitnon or McCain in terms of experiene. I take McCain any day. Race has nothing to do with my dislike of hom. You seem to paint all men in power with this huge brush of keeping women down, You are mistaken II really feel you are bringing some prejudices to these discussions. I've looked back over many of my posts, and nothing in them can be interpreted as calling you what you said. Maybe you know a lot of men who seem to think in this twisted way, but I'm not one of them. As a black woman I see sexism and racism all the time. My race means that I will be lazy. My gender meas that I can not do the work. You are a black man. Sure you face problems. You don't have people who say that you have a smaller brain and can't handle high pressured situations. Not as a man. You don't have the problem of being emotional and seen as a negative. You don't have the problem with memebers of your group that don't think that women should NEVER be near the top. Any black person that say that blacks should not be leaders is is as racist. You don't have the burden of being told to sacrifice for the sake of the race. You don't have to worry if your outward apprearence is more important than your accomplishments. You don't have to worry that if you focus on your group then that will tear the family structure apart and will destroy men. No I don't hate men I dont hate black men. The fact that you continue with this kind of conclusion speaks volumes. This is the kind of sexims I hate. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
At last, there is the crux i sought. You ended this polemic with a whole lot of you don't understand my pain. Get a clue. I was raised by a Black woman who dealt with this. I have two sisters and a whole lot of female friends. I've been with my wife for 22 years, and i sure as heck know what she goes through as a Black woman. That I don't experience all the issues black *women* have doesn't mean I can't relate to struggles as a Black *man*. Again, you seem to create an argument where none exists. Not once, in one single of my posts did I deny that women have it hard. I acknowledged that. What I said was taht Black people have it hard, women have it hard, both have it hard, so why are some women using the gender issue to say they have it harder, to say Barak Obama won an unfair contest? That's what Hillary and her people did, that's what you keep doing. If the system is sexist, rail against it, but quit punishing that man for it, a man who respects women from everything I can se e. And then, going to McCain? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. How does putting down a Black man in favor of a white man help your cause as a woman? i guess a candidate who calls his wife the c-word (and it was heard and confirmed by his own retainers off the record) is better for women's advancement than a young Brother who reveres his mother, grandmother, wife, sister, and daughters? I said, and I repeat this: why did this turn into a men vs. women battle when it should have turned into how can we fix all the -ism's discussion. You are guilty of the same pity-me attitude you accuse me of. I criticize Hillary--a lady I supported at first--because she took real problems and reduced them to hammers to use in a win-at-any-cost campaign. She used people to cry sexism, she used racism to try to forge ahead. I never denied sexism exists, but I decry her saying it's worse than racism, and the way she and her sycophants then attacked Obama for it. You're doing the same thing, and I tell you, in me youve really alienated a Black man who gets it far more than you might think. As a woman you definitely deal with some burdens I don't deal with. As a man, I deal with some you don't deal with, such as being seen as a physical threat just by hauling my 6' frame onto an elevator with a white woman. We both suffer ,Gymfig. I've watched my wife deal with racist, sexist white guys on her job; she's watched me deal with racist people on mine. Never once in two decades have we had an argument where she says you don't get my pain, you have it easier. She comes to me for advice and support, and vice versa. We help each other work through those problems. But rest assured, if either of us started directing anger at the other, blaming the other for some perceived advantage, it wouldn't be tolerated. I have told her yeah, I can see you have battles I don't have as a man. But you know what, it's still *my* battle because she's my woman, and my battles are hers because I'm her man. My wife doesn't have it harder than me: we as a Black couple have it harder than white s, and we as Black people have it harder. As long as people like you attack folk like me and Barak and other Black men who are actually trying to make things better, you splinter us. I realize that you don't get me, and I'm really saddened and disgusted that it's so easy for a Sister to attack a Brother who's trying to understand things. You are the living example of why Black men and women can't get along, you're the woman who hits back at a man who's holding his hand out to help, the one who says You have it better 'cause you're a man, you don't get my pain. You push me away because you want to stay wrapped in a cocoon of self-pity. You are a danger to the future of Black men and women finally healing all the hurts we've done to each other, but I won't be a party to that foolishness. Okay, I'm done. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/28/2008 9:57:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gymfig, I must be crazy for continuing this, but I do want to clear up one thing. Sayinig you have a problem with men is *not* saying you're lesbian, crazy, or a bit***. It's responses like that that confuse me. I love women, I respect women, and I am saddened at the gender battles I see in this country, especially with Black people. What I've seen from you is a hair trigger whenever men in power comes up, an immediate, loud repudiation of men--or at least Black men--out of proportion to what's said. When we discuss Obama, you say He's another man, big deal.So what' if he's black? which is disrespectul to the *kind* of man he is, and to Black people. It is not disrespectful at all. People may be happy that he is runnig for president. However at the end of the day he is still human. He is still a politician. He needs the same corporate money
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/28/2008 12:49:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not once, in one single of my posts did I deny that women have it hard. I acknowledged that. What I said was that Black people have it hard, women have it hard, both have it hard, so why are some women using the gender issue to say they have it harder, to say Barack Obama won an unfair contest? That's what Hillary and her people did, that's what you keep doing. If the system is sexist, rail against it, but quit punishing that man for it, a man who respects women from everything I can see. Why does every Hillary supporter have to be anti man? This is something I don't get. I don't like Obama. That is why I went to Hillary. Now I have to choose between McCain and Obama. I still don't like Obama. That leaves McCain. I can criticize Obama just like I can criticize McCain. This is the same kind of reasoning that was used against Hillary during the primaries. If you don't like Obama then you must have issues of race or gender. You that said I have issues. Not me. McCain won Saddleback. All the Obama supporters I know could not spin that. They admitted Obama had faults. Obama has a tendency to make a statement. He then has to call another news conference to clarify his statement. Just say what you feel and get over it. McCain is not perfect. I find that annoying. Obama's inner circle always seems to keep him protected. They won't let him go out on his on. And then, going to McCain? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. How does putting down a Black man in favor of a white man help your cause as a woman? Putting him down? It is called criticism. Everyone has to go through it. I guess a candidate who calls his wife the c-word (and it was heard and confirmed by his own retainers off the record) is better for women's advancement than a young Brother who reveres his mother, grandmother, wife, sister, and daughters? I am worried about his policies not how he treats his family. I said, and I repeat this: why did this turn into a men vs. women battle when it should have turned into how can we fix all the -ism's discussion. Everytime Clinton comes up you have a what' s wrong with Gymfig and black people response. You are guilty of the same pity-me attitude you accuse me of. I criticize Hillary--a lady I supported at first--because she took real problems and reduced them to hammers to use in a win-at-any-cost campaign. She used people to cry sexism, she used racism to try to forge ahead. I never denied sexism exists, but I decry her saying it's worse than racism, and the way she and her sycophants then attacked Obama for it. You're doing the same thing, and I tell you, in me you've really alienated a Black man who gets it far more than you might think. Okay As a woman you definitely deal with some burdens I don't deal with. As a man, I deal with some you don't deal with, such as being seen as a physical threat just by hauling my 6' frame onto an elevator with a white woman. We both suffer,Gymfig. I've watched my wife deal with racist, sexist white guys on her job; she's watched me deal with racist people on mine. Never once in two decades have we had an argument where she says you don't get my pain, you have it easier. She comes to me for advice and support, and vice versa. We help each other work through those problems. But rest assured, if either of us started directing anger at the other, blaming the other for some perceived advantage, it wouldn't be tolerated. I have told her yeah, I can see you have battles I don't have as a man. But you know what, it's still *my* battle because she's my woman, and my battles are hers because I'm her man. My wife doesn't have it harder than me: we as a Black couple have it ha rder than whites, and we as Black people have it harder. As long as people like you attack folk like me and Barak and other Black men who are actually trying to make things better, you splinter us. I realize that you don't get me, and I'm really saddened and disgusted that it's so easy for a Sister to attack a Brother who's trying to understand things. So I am supposed to support the brothers no matter what? I don't care about color, I care about content. You are the living example of why Black men and women can't get along, you're the woman who hits back at a man who's holding his hand out to help, the one who says You have it better 'cause you're a man, you don't get my pain. You push me away because you want to stay wrapped in a cocoon of self-pity. You are a danger to the future of Black men and women finally healing all the hurts we've done to each other, but I won't be a party to that foolishness. I could care less about black male and female relationships when it comes to politics. That Bros. before Hoe does not work. This election is not about black people. I am
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/28/2008 10:04:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tired or not but everything is racist. You cant tell whites to get their act together if they own the act, the actors and the stage. So what are you going to do? Whites are not going anywhere. Hispanics are the majority minority. Republicans 'care about Hispanic issues because Hispanics don't always vote Democratic. They know how to make people more for their vote. Blacks will always be Democrat according to this line of reason. Both parties will stop paying attention to you. Republicans won't waste time. Democrats will take you for granted. Its and unfair battle of perception and we are always on the losing end. John McCain can give 2 flying cucumbers about the black community. They are not his contingent...so any comments of the like simply looks like a cheap swipe...which it would be. I respect McCain and realize many points he makes and policy ideas are more solid thank my man B. But as they say on the streets... DONT GET IT TWISTED! McCain is thirsty for the seat. I am more concerned more about what he will let happen and not what he will do. I a concerned about Obama. He wants it too. So did Hillary. You have to what something to get it. If not, why run? You can complain about Liberals all you want, but a step in the right direction is something we should applaud. In the words of the rap group M.O.P In order to survive the game, know the game... You can't play the game when you don't play both side. The game gets older after a while. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
I admit that I, too, am flabbergasted by this, Keith. Maybe she's picked up something along the road in the past few weeks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQUxw9aUVik --- On Wed, 8/27/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 6:52 PM Okay, she's gone a long way toward redeeming herself. Hillary Clintion--after several states yielded to New York--spoke for her state and the convention, asking that Barak Obama be declared the candidate by acclamation, which just took place. Good move, good move. Although...I must admit I was enjoying the long, drawn out nomination speeches from each state's delegates. Always fun to hear The Great State of so-and-so brag about their luminaries, their weather, their role in the Revolutionary War, whatever. Now, let's see if Bill can swallow that anger and bring it like his wife did. Seeing as Hillary has her eye to the future, you best believe she's told Bill not to screw this up for her by giving the slightest reason for people to blame them if Obama were to lose. I think Billy Boy will schmooze and dissemble with the best of 'em tonight!
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I, too, am flabbergasted by this, Keith. Maybe she's picked up something along the road in the past few weeks. It is all for show. She want those keep h Senate seat and move on up. It is all politics. The Party does not want to lose all of those angry black voters. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
yeah, man. I think she--and Bill--picked up that whether Obama wins or loses, what they do this year and this week determines their own futures. It's no joke that a lot of Blacks (me included) are incensed at the not-so-subtle racism the Clintons--who were givent the title of honorary Blacks--used against Obama. It's less about even supporting Obama and more about the tricks they used. And I've heard a lot of Blacks saying that if she didn't do everythig in her power to make up for that, if Obama lost, they'd hold her and Bill responsible. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. And as time's gone on, they've realized it's not just Blacks, but many younger whites who don't have a sense of history and loyalty with the Clintons. If Hillary runs in four years or tries to run in even eight years, for newer generations she and Bill will be a part of history. And how would they like part of that historic legacy to be that's the lady who helped shoot down the first serious Black presidenti al candidate. and she's old too. -- Original message -- From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] I admit that I, too, am flabbergasted by this, Keith. Maybe she's picked up something along the road in the past few weeks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQUxw9aUVik --- On Wed, 8/27/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 6:52 PM Okay, she's gone a long way toward redeeming herself. Hillary Clintion--after several states yielded to New York--spoke for her state and the convention, asking that Barak Obama be declared the candidate by acclamation, which just took place. Good move, good move. Although...I must admit I was enjoying the long, drawn out nomination speeches from each state's delegates. Always fun to hear The Great State of so-and-so brag about their luminaries, their weather, their role in the Revolutionary War, whatever. Now, let's see if Bill can swallow that anger and bring it like his wife did. Seeing as Hillary has her eye to the future, you best believe she's told Bill not to screw this up for her by giving the slightest reason for people to blame them if Obama were to lose. I think Billy Boy will schmooze and dissemble with the best of 'em tonight!
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
Right on, but such is the nature of politics. If Barak can hold his tongue at some of the nastiness and racism she leveled his way--while he never used the admittedly existent sexism that exists against her--then it's the least she and Bill can do. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I, too, am flabbergasted by this, Keith. Maybe she's picked up something along the road in the past few weeks. It is all for show. She want those keep h Senate seat and move on up. It is all politics. The Party does not want to lose all of those angry black voters. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
That's my thoughts exactly. What I saw Clintion was in a no-win situation. It has now dawn on her that thanks to her primary actions she either has to help Obama win the election-even if it means she'll never have a decent shot of running for president. Or killing her political career, and her chance of holding her senate seat by either doing nothing, or harming Obama's chance of winning it. So she had to hit one out of the park. But now she has to make sure that Obama wins the nod or many will blame his loss on her and endure the backlash. Which will probally end her senate career. -GTW In a message dated 8/27/08 7:41:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I, too, am flabbergasted by this, Keith. Maybe she's picked up something along the road in the past few weeks. It is all for show. She want those keep h Senate seat and move on up. It is all politics. The Party does not want to lose all of those angry black voters. ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 7:22:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . If Barak can hold his tongue at some of the nastiness and racism she leveled his way-- That is how he got the nomination. while he never used the admittedly existent sexism that exists against her--then it's the least she and Bill can do. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 7:21:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: used against Obama. It's less about even supporting Obama and more about the tricks they used. And I've heard a lot of Blacks saying that if she didn't do everythig in her power to make up for that, if Obama lost, they'd hold her and Bill responsible. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. And as time's gone on, they've realized it's not just Blacks, but many younger whites who don't have a sense of history and loyalty with the Clintons. If Hillary runs in four years or tries to run in even eight years, for newer generations she and Bill will be a part of history. And how would they like part of that historic legacy to be that's the lady who helped shoot down the first serious Black presi dential candidate. and she's old too. All those whites who toke african american studies course and have half black kids always get offended and act as if they understand. At the end of the day, being the first black means nothing to me. It is all liberal potlics that seems to end up hurtig blacks in the end. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 7:39:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's my thoughts exactly. What I saw Clintion was in a no-win situation. It has now dawn on her that thanks to her primary actions she either has to help Obama win the election-even if it means she'll never have a decent shot of running for president. Or killing her political career, and her chance of holding her senate seat by either doing nothing, or harming Obama's chance of winning it. So she had to hit one out of the park. But now she has to make sure that Obama wins the nod or many will blame his loss on her and endure the backlash. Which will probally end her senate career. This is what I am tired of . I am tired of the Everything is racist. Poor Obama. I saw him in the debates with Hillary. He was horrible. However black peole were crying racism. I saw him at Saddleback. McCain was great. You can't blame that on racism. Minoriites have been force feed that nothing is there fault. It is all the racist system. Now you have all of these so called white liberals who feel proud they are not racist like their parents. We can all be stupid toghet. Give me a break. Take teen pregnacy. It used to be a black problem:. Now it is a white problem and is acceptable. You have all of these dolllars going in to stop it in the black community. However it is ballooning in the white community. When will Obama tell whites to get their act together. He won't . He will say that peopel must work together to stop problems. It will be accpetable becuse he is a Bill Cosby type of person. John McCain says the same thing and he is labeled a racist. This has NOT helped. People need to sop looking at race and look at the problem. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
Yep. And listening to her speech last night, and Bill's speech tonight, and watching the amazing fervor and charisma all of the primaries bring--Michell, Hillary, Bill--makes me a bit sad. It makes me wish it *could* have been possible for the Clintons and Obamas to run together on the same ticket. What a power, what a force they could have been. But, despite what they're doing now, Bill and Hillary have shown that they're too prideful and self-absorbed to ever be second fiddle. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's my thoughts exactly. What I saw Clintion was in a no-win situation. It has now dawn on her that thanks to her primary actions she either has to help Obama win the election-even if it means she'll never have a decent shot of running for president. Or killing her political career, and her chance of holding her senate seat by either doing nothing, or harming Obama's chance of winning it. So she had to hit one out of the park. But now she has to make sure that Obama wins the nod or many will blame his loss on her and endure the backlash. Which will probally end her senate career. -GTW In a message dated 8/27/08 7:41:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit that I, too, am flabbergasted by this, Keith. Maybe she's picked up something along the road in the past few weeks. It is all for show. She want those keep h Senate seat and move on up. It is all politics. The Party does not want to lose all of those angry black voters. ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:29:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But, despite what they're doing now, Bill and Hillary have shown that they're too prideful and self-absorbed to ever be second fiddle. Obama said the same thing **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
Well, you're entitled to that opinion for sure. Speaking as a liberal, I'm heartened by a return to more liberal thinking. If it means we can look at people as people, instead of using sexual orientation and ethnicity as scare tactics, I'm all for it. If we can respect anyone whether they're Christian, Muslim, Jew, or atheist, then color me liberal. If we can return to a world where we talk with other nations and make decisions with them rather than try to push them around, then sign me up. If we can use thoughtful consideration rather than charging in with guns blazing, then sing hallelujah. If we can bring back to reality the moral Judeo-Christian points conservatives noise about, but then ignore--the rights to privacy, respect of all races and religions, loving and helping the less fortunate--then by all means, liberalism come back! And I get that just throwing a Black face in office isn't in and of itself enough. After all, two of the worst, most destructive people in recent history--Clarence Thomas and Condie Rice-are Black. But symbols are powerful.Taking a step is powerful. Opening a door is powerful. And putting a man --or woman, someday--of color in the highest office in the land is a powerful symbol. It will change us in ways we don't even comprehend right now. It won't be the Second Coming, but it will move us forward as a nation, a people, if only a little bit. Just as you and I benefited from our parents and grandparents being the first on a job, the first in a neighborhood, the first in a church, the first to vote, then we'll all benefit from the right man being the first to take the leadership of this country. In my humble opinion. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/27/2008 7:21:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: used against Obama. It's less about even supporting Obama and more about the tricks they used. And I've heard a lot of Blacks saying that if she didn't do everythig in her power to make up for that, if Obama lost, they'd hold her and Bill responsible. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. And as time's gone on, they've realized it's not just Blacks, but many younger whites who don't have a sense of history and loyalty with the Clintons. If Hillary runs in four years or tries to run in even eight years, for newer generations she and Bill will be a part of history. And how would they like part of that historic legacy to be that's the lady who helped shoot down the first serious Black presi dential candidate. and she's old too. All those whites who toke african american studies course and have half black kids always get offended and act as if they understand. At the end of the day, being the first black means nothing to me. It is all liberal potlics that seems to end up hurtig blacks in the end. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
Maybe, but he never resorted to the nasty, name-calling, baiting, disparaging, disrespectful tactics the Clintons did. When Hillary was belittling him as nothing but a one-speech guy, who was respectfully disagreeing with her. when she shot nasty and really angry comments at him during their debates, he acted with calm and class and made his point, firmly. And I believe that had he lost, he'd have been out there doing his level best to help the Clintons win, despite how they treated him. What did Hillary and Bill do at first? Acted like poor losers, dropped out of sight, Bill going so far as to leave the country rather than be asked to campaign for Obama. They're getting their stuff together now, but it took a while. I say this as someone who liked Hillary long past the point when many men and women hated her, who defended many of her deeds as just tough politics, who sat in indecision for long moments in the booth here in Atlanta before finally casting my vote for Obama. I don't have a problem with her as a woman or anything like that. I just have a problem with the way they let their campaign against Obama degenerate. They messed up big, and everyone seems to realize that, them included. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:29:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But, despite what they're doing now, Bill and Hillary have shown that they're too prideful and self-absorbed to ever be second fiddle. Obama said the same thing It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
You're missing a huge thing here. It was Hillary who said on the record that she was the candidate of the hardworking, blue collar, Midwestern folks, who everyone--everyone--knew to be white voters. It was Bill who reached back and said Well you know, Jesse Jackson won South Carolina too, and opened that door of not-so-subtle racism. And I have to say, I don't see anyone teaching Blacks that all our problems are due to racism, that we don't have to have responsibility for ourselves. I'm successful by most standards, I've worked hard to get where I am, my parents taught me to fight and scrap and improve myself. But they also taught me that racism is real, and to fight it when I see it. And it *does* still exist in this country. Just as Blacks can't spend all time blaming racism, we'd be incautious to pretend it doesn't exist. As for Obama going after whites and telling them to get their act together, i can't really speak to that yet. I know he's angered many by his lecturing Black men to get it together, by not addressing racism overtly (something which has apparently alienated Tavis Smiley). I'm not yet sure where I stand on this. I know that he can't obtain the White House speaking the way you and I do. It sucks, but if this stupid nation is still questioning Michelle because she made the completely understandable statement that she was really proud of America, if they deem not wearing a flag pin a sign of treason, then I think they'd never put a Black man in office who tells it fully like it is. It makes me somewhat ill to even say this, but he does have to walk a fine line here. Has he gone too far? I don't know, not sure, but I'm willing to give him a chance. I'd rather have a careful Black man like Obama who at least *acknowledges* that America is racist, than a sellout like Clarence Thomas who pr etends it isn't, or a clueless codger like McCain who has about as much in common with me and my life as I do with a ant. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/27/2008 7:39:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's my thoughts exactly. What I saw Clintion was in a no-win situation. It has now dawn on her that thanks to her primary actions she either has to help Obama win the election-even if it means she'll never have a decent shot of running for president. Or killing her political career, and her chance of holding her senate seat by either doing nothing, or harming Obama's chance of winning it. So she had to hit one out of the park. But now she has to make sure that Obama wins the nod or many will blame his loss on her and endure the backlash. Which will probally end her senate career. This is what I am tired of . I am tired of the Everything is racist. Poor Obama. I saw him in the debates with Hillary. He was horrible. However black peole were crying racism. I saw him at Saddleback. McCain was great. You can't blame that on racism. Minoriites have been force feed that nothing is there fault. It is all the racist system. Now you have all of these so called white liberals who feel proud they are not racist like their parents. We can all be stupid toghet. Give me a break. Take teen pregnacy. It used to be a black problem:. Now it is a white problem and is acceptable. You have all of these dolllars going in to stop it in the black community. However it is ballooning in the white community. When will Obama tell whites to get their act together. He won't . He will say that peopel must work together to stop problems. It will be accpetable becuse he is a Bill Cosby type of person. John McCain says the same thing and he is labeled a racist. This has NOT helped. People need to sop looking at race and look at the problem. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:40:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, you're entitled to that opinion for sure. Speaking as a liberal, I'm heartened by a return to more liberal thinking. If it means we can look at people as people, instead of using sexual orientation and ethnicity as scare tactics, I'm all for it. If we can respect anyone whether they're Christian, Muslim, Jew, or atheist, then color me liberal. If we can return to a world where we talk with other nations and make decisions with them rather than try to push them around, then sign me up. And I get that just throwing a Black face in office isn't in and of itself enough. After all, two of the worst, most destructive people in recent history--Clarence Thomas and Condie Rice-are Black. But symbols are powerful.Taking a step is powerful. Opening a door is powerful. And putting a man --or woman, someday--of color in the highest office in the land is a powerful symbol. It will change us in ways we don't even comprehend right now. It won't be the Second Coming, but it will move us forward as a nation, a people, if only a little bit. Just as you and I benefited from our parents and grandparents being the first on a job, the first in a neighborhood, the first in a church, the first to vote, then we'll all benefit from the right man being the first to take the leadership of this country. In my humble opinion. Keith, Notihing is ever humble with you. I live in a traditional blue state. However they baneed gay marriege. Tehre are alot of blue states out there that don't like gay marriage. You live in a Hollywood world. A word were it is black or white. Either or. If you are against this, then you are racist. If you are for this, then you are okay. I am against illegal immigration. I am against having more Asians come over here. I think that a lack of rules is the problem in our society. Howeve I am not an Evangelical Christian. I despise them by the way. I am not to found of Christianity but I don't believe it should be vilified while other religons are celebrated. I don't think that IR are well help race relations. Actually I am not worried about race relations. I am worried about myself. I think that blaks spend way to much time worried about race and not about themselves as individuals. I think tthat they are too scared to be individuals. This country is not ready for a woman president. As long as this country focuses on race, a woman president will not happen. Therefore it will not happen. Unless the woman is non white or married to a non whte man. Bros before Hoes Mammy Nutcracker Bitch White Bitch These are terms that are acceptable acros racial and gender lines. It will not change with Obama. This country is moving forwad. However groups have to face responsibility. They chose not too because the media says it is not their fault. Slavery is the problem. Immigration. Racist white men are al the problem. Government programs are the solution. How can you be a progressive when you are told that nothing is ever your fault. You don't have to take the blame. The meida vilifies any person of color who does not fall into the victim hood category especially african americans. Obama is an excpetion. He is not a typical black person. He works hard. He is an immigrant. He does not have the stain of slavery. How can you be proud of that? Blacks have allowed liberals to feed them self doubt for too long. Yes Obama is exceptional. However why has it take us so long to believe it. That was not Bush, it was ourselves. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
Re: [scifinoir2] OT: Wow--Hillary Moves for Barak by Acclamation
In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:50:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You're missing a huge thing here. It was Hillary who said on the record that she was the candidate of the hardworking, blue collar, Midwestern folks, who everyone--everyone--knew to be white voters. So if Obama tsaid that he was getting the liberal white and black votes would you have been happy. It was Bill who reached back and said Well you know, Jesse Jackson won South Carolina too, It was true. Obama won in a place with alot of blacks. and opened that door of not-so-subtle racism. And I have to say, I don't see anyone teaching Blacks that all our problems are due to racism, that we don't have to have responsibility for ourselves. Everything seems to be due to racism on this list. Watch tv and movies. Read book after book after book about the effects of slaver. I'm successful by most standards, I've worked hard to get where I am, my parents taught me to fight and scrap and improve myself. But they also taught me that racism is real, and to fight it when I see it. And it *does* still exist in this country. Just as Blacks can't spend all time blaming racism, we'd be incautious to pretend it doesn't exist. True As for Obama going after whites and telling them to get their act together, i can't really speak to that yet. I know he's angered many by his lecturing Black men to get it together, He should have gone after black women. Because it takes two make a baby and birth control is an option. He would have upset whtie women. The black man jab was to make sure that white men would vote for him. by not addressing racism overtly (something which has apparently alienated Tavis Smiley). I'm not yet sure where I stand on this. I know that he can't obtain the White House speaking the way you and I do. It sucks, but if this stupid nation is still questioning Michelle because she made the completely understandable statement that she was really proud of America, if they deem not wearing a flag pin a sign of treason, then I think they'd never put a Black man in office who tells it fully like it is. It makes me somewhat ill to even say this, but he does have to walk a fine line here. Has he gone too far? He needs to convince whites. That is why he picked a WHITE MALE in Biden. He needs to reassure white America where he stand.s He has the black vote lockeed up. Look at the way AA treated that woman on CNN last night. Again with the mammy images. I don't know, not sure, but I'm willing to give him a chance. I'd rather have a careful Black man like Obama who at least *acknowledges* that America is racist, than a sellout like Clarence Thomas w ho pretends it isn't, or a clueless codger like McCain who has about as much in common with me and my life as I do with a ant. **It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547)
