Re: [Simh] Releasing terspy.mar - vax/vms terminal spy program

[Robert Armstrong]

>$ SET HOST/LOG will log your own session. This program logs someone else's 
>session.

 

  That’s true – I’m assuming the person being spied upon wants to be spied on.

 

Bob

 

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Re: [Simh] Releasing terspy.mar - vax/vms terminal spy program

[Robert Armstrong]

  I've never heard of this particular program, but on VMS there's SET
HOST/LOG which kinda sorta gives a similar result.  In 1980 that might not
have existed, but it's there in most "modern" VMS versions.

 

Bob

 

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Supratim
Sanyal
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 12:36 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Releasing terspy.mar - vax/vms terminal spy program

 

wouldn't taking pictures with a smart phone and running a OCR app work?

 

supratim

 

On 3/25/20 1:56 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote:

I have a paper printout of a program called terspy.mar - which is a terminal
spy program for vax/vms

 

it was written by Bob Vera, DEC, April 28, 1980
Don't know if anyone here knows him, or knew him, I never met him or knew
him.
I've had this printout in my collection since shortly after the day it was
written (or so).

 

I'd forgotten what a pain it is to scan in fan-fold DEC teletype printouts,
the pages are too long to fit.

 

I've done a scan of it, but the bottom line or so of each page is always
cut-off.
I'm thinking of editing the PDF (Acrobat) and putting in the lines that were
missed manually.

 

from the comments in the program:

 

This tool is designed to kidnap characters out of a designated terminal's
output buffer and record them in a disk file which is subsequently printed
out on the printer when the session is finished.

by default, it creates a log file with the users' name with a .LOG
extension.

also by default, when the session is done, it auto-prints the log file, then
erases it when the print is completed.

 

It's a little over 7 pages long (original printout)

 

If this is a well-known util, I won't waste my time, but I've never seen it
in any archives.

obviously you need appropriate privileges to use it on another user's
terminal.

I don't see anything that specifies which privileges it needs,

but the comments say it's scanning the IRP's, which is what it says it uses
to do its work.


Aside from doing scans a half-page at a time, if anyone has any suggestions
on scanning it, I'd welcome some advice.


Dan.





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-- 
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Paul Koning  wrote:
>2901 bitslices do appear in other DEC products, the UDA comes to mind

  The KS was built with 2901s, right?  Or at least some 29xx family parts?

  Actually the KS and the 730 implementations have a lot in common.  I always 
wondered if the same engineers worked on both, but that's probably unlikely.

Bob


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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Timothe Litt  wrote:
> KS10 ... The 8085 code is crammed into UV EPROMs.

  Was all of the KS CFE code in EPROM?  On the 730 only a small kernel of 8085 
code (about 2K as I remember) was in ROM/EPROM and the rest of the 8085 memory 
was RAM.  The first thing the 8085 did at power on was to load the rest of the 
8085 code from the TU58.  That made it possible to issue updates to the CFE 
code as well as the microcode.

Bob


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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Johnny Billquist  wrote:
>The memory bus on the VAX-11/750 is the same as for the MK11 box for the 
>PDP-11/70, and they shared some memory cards. 

  Same memory was used on the 730 too.  The 730 memory cards were always 1MB 
though - never saw any other size.

  I don't know the actual number of physical address bits implemented on the 
730, but as a practical matter 5x 1Mb cards was the most you could fit in the 
chassis.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Hunter Goatley  wrote:
>... kick back and read a few chapters from one of the SF novels while 
> waiting for their build to complete. 8-) 

  I had a job in the early 80s for a company that wrote EDA software, and we 
used a 750 as the development platform.  Linking a new EXE (_linking_!!) took 
about 15 minutes, and and there were many paperback books scattered around.  
Management was not happy, but we had a good excuse until they eventually bought 
us a used 785.  Compiling all the source code on the 750 took more than a day 
and was normally done once a week, over the weekend.

> The day we got our first VAXstation 2000, everybody was fighting
> over it, because it blew the 730 away.

  I think the 730/725 was the second slowest VAX ever made.  It beat the 
performance of a MicroVAX-I (I, not II) by just a hair.

Bob




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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

>FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address register);
> perhaps it was used in the 730 as well.

  The 730 certainly had a UBA; don’t know if had a specific "FUBAR" register 
though.  But as far as a physical bar inside the chassis I've never seen nor 
heard of anything like that.  I have a 730 in the garage and it doesn't have 
any such thing.  The 730 fit into a single 10-1/2" chassis anyway, so there 
wasn't even a specific cabinet or rack dedicated to the 730.  And the 730 
chassis was basically the same box as was used for the 11/44, but with a 
somewhat different backplane.

  I suspect the "FUBAR" at Dan's high school may have been a local joke :)

Bob

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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Paul Koning  wrote:
>... extended microcode to run PDP-8 code faster.  But it was an 11/60
running RSTS/E.

  So it is true (well, sort of, but with a PDP-11/60 rather than a
VAX-11/730)??  Do you know any details of how it was implemented?  If it ran
RSTS then it was obviously still a PDP-11 at the same time it was emulating
a PDP-8.  Was there a -8 "compatibility" mode, something like the -11 mode
on the VAX?  

Bob

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Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>Using a PDP-8 as an FEP on any VAX definitely sounds odd.

  The console front end for the 730 was an 8085 (just like the KS10, FWIW).

  The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in RAM and was 
loaded by the CFE at boot time.  It was possible to locally modify the 730 
microcode, and DEC even had a set of microcode development tools for the 730.  
I've never seen them except in references.

  This is relevant because for years I've heard a persistent rumor that the 
PDP-8/WPS-8 group at DEC had a 730 with microcode that had been hacked to 
include a PDP-8 compatibility mode, which they used for development.  It was 
faster than real -8 and supported timesharing to boot.

  I wonder if this is the source of the original poster's memory?  Can anybody 
confirm or deny this rumor?

Bob


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Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license

[Robert Armstrong]

  I liked Tom Hank’s statement better.  He tweeted yesterday “Remember, there’s 
no crying in baseball!”.   But maybe I’m old…that movie was about 30 years ago..

 

Bob

 

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Supratim Sanyal
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 7:36 AM
To: Johnny Billquist; Dan Gahlinger
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license

 

Given the current geopolitical, econmic and biological state of the world, 
inspiring words of deep wisdom are in order for all of us to unwind and 
destress. There is no wisdom greater than this meme from Paris Jackson.

"smoke some weed n think about the bigger picture. chillax my dudes."

:)



 

On 3/17/20 6:31 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Sure. I'll be happy to ignore you. But just for anyone else, here is the 
exchange I had with Dan on the topic. 

So noone else have to repeat the same thing. 

  Johnny 

On 2020-03-17 23:27, Dan Gahlinger wrote: 



please stop bothering me with your nonsense. 

 
*From:* Johnny Billquist    
*Sent:* March 17, 2020 6:26 PM 
*To:* Dan Gahlinger    
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license 
Your question was: 

"What would HPE do if the pak they released were posted anonymously with 
   the termination date removed?" 

That seemed to imply that you were thinking that it was possible to 
"modify" the PAK. 

My response was: 
"You need to generate a different PAK. You cannot change any field in an 
existing PAK and still have a valid PAK. The checksum will (obviously) 
change." 

In which way was that overly arrogant, talking down to you like you were 
stupid or something. In which way was that "massive attitude"? 

Or, to put it another way: 

I simply responded wanting to confirm if you understood that it was not 
possible to "modify" the PAK, but that you in fact have to create a new 
PAK, which have nothing to do with the HPE PAK. 

So the question is really, what would HPE do if someone starts sending 
out their own PAKs for HPW products. 

It has nothing to do with their (ie. HPE) PAKs. 

But you certainly is showing a lot of attitude to my response. 

But that is your problem. Not mine. Just as any response from HPE would 
be your problem, not mine. 

Some countries might not care what HPE thinks or does. Sure. Does that 
change what HPE thinks or does? No idea. Seems unlikely that it would 
stop HPE to try and protect their property where they can. But that 
would be pure speculation on my part. 

If you want to move to Russia, go ahead. Also not my problem. 

Johnny 

On 2020-03-17 18:00, Dan Gahlinger wrote: 



your message seemed overly arrogant intentionally, talking down to me like I 
was stupid or something. massive attitude. 

my question was very clear and concise, and you have yet to provide a valid 
response, not that your opinion has any weight any longer. 

what is HPE going to do, sue some guy in Russia or Iran? pffft fat chance 

next time just politely answer 

Dan 

Try: https://www.grammarly.com 

 
*From:* Johnny Billquist    
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2020 12:07:58 PM 
*To:* Dan Gahlinger    
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license 
I did feel it was a bit deceptive to phrase the question as if it would 
be a modification of a HPE PAK. 

You obviously felt then that this was a fine way to pose the question. 

 Johnny 

On 2020-03-17 15:28, Dan Gahlinger wrote: 



well DUH. 
thanks Captain Obvious... 

 
*From:* Johnny Billquist    
*Sent:* March 17, 2020 10:26 AM 
*To:* Dan Gahlinger    
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license 
Sure. But then the question should properly be "What would HPE do of 
people post arbitrary PAKs"? Because it is not any PAK HPE have released. 

 Johnny 

On 2020-03-17 15:08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: 



Obviously, but aside from the termination and checksum, 
Everything else can be the same. 

 
*From:* Johnny Billquist    
*Sent:* March 17, 2020 10:02 AM 
*To:* Dan Gahlinger   ; 
simh@trailing-edge.com   
 
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license 
You need to generate a different PAK. You cannot change any field in an 
existing PAK and still have a valid PAK. The checksum will (obviously) 
change. 

 Johnny 

On 2020-03-17 14:40, Dan Gahlinger wrote: 





I ask because countries like Russia just don't care, or like Iran... 

*I can neither confirm nor deny that such a posting exists... 

Dan 
 

[Simh] TOPS-10 7.04 RP07 problems

[Robert Armstrong]

  I've managed to get TOPS-10 7.04 running on simh/KS10; I even have DECnet
working with the KDP/DUP.  However TOPS-10 crashes any time I try to
initialize an RP07.  An RP06 is just fine, but not an RP07.  In the
following example, DSKC/RPA1 is an RP07 -

 

Startup option: refresh

 

Needs refreshing: DSKC

Structure to refresh: dskc

% RPA1 first HOM block consistency error

[Updated HOM blocks on unit RPA1]

 

?Stopcode EWB, type=DEBUG, on CPU0 at 11-Mar-120 14:07:26

Unit = RPA1

 

CPU Status Block

 

APRID = 470130,,011607

CONI APR, = 001060,,30

CONI PI, = 00,,000271

CONI PAG, = 00,,060002

DATAI PAG, = 500100,,04

[Dumping on DSKB:CRASH.EXE[1,4]]

[Continuing system]

 

It actually repeats the same stop code several times over.  I thought 7.04
supported RP07s?  Is this a TOPS-10 bug or a simh problem?  FWIW, I have the
latest PDP-10 build from github just today.

 

Thanks,

Bob

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Robert Armstrong]

  VMS 4.x is an option for older VAXes, as it predates LMF.  Of course the 
legality of doing that may still be an issue, but there's no technical 
challenge to running it.

  VMS 4.7 supported the MicroVAX-III, but I don't remember for sure if it'll 
work on the 3900 simulated by simh.  Somebody would have to dig up an SPD, but 
in any event it probably wouldn't be a big problem to simulate a slightly 
different model.

  Alphas, OTOH, are a problem.  I don't believe there was ever any non-LMF 
operating system that ran on them   Well, maybe Windows-NT on the Multia 
UDB?  Nah ... :)

Bob

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Re: [Simh] macro11

[Robert Armstrong]

Thanks, Olaf, for the updates.  macro11 is working pretty well now.

 

Is there a a path from macro11 .obj files to absolute memory images, preferably 
in -11 absolute loader paper tape image format, that I can transfer to a real 
-11? 

 

Did someone say that there’s link11 as well?  Or a task builder?

 

Thanks,

Bob Armstrong

 

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Re: [Simh] macro11

[Robert Armstrong]

> .ENABL AMA ...

  Ah, you are right - it's generating mode 67 rather than 37.

  .ENABL AMA does fix that issue.  Thanks!

Bob


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Re: [Simh] macro11

[Robert Armstrong]

  Another macro11 question - do the apostrophes in the listing indicate
relocatable references, as they do in the DEC version?

  If so, then I don't think it's assembling this code correctly -


   1.TITLE  TEST RELOCATABLE
REFERENCES
   2 00 .ASECT
   3001000  .=1000
   4
   5001234  X == 1234
   6
   7 001000 005067  001234' CLR X
   8

  X should be an absolute address, not relocatable.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] macro11

[Robert Armstrong]

  I’ve been reading this conversation about macro11 and decided to try running 
a few old source files thru it.  One problem I’ve noticed right away is that 
“.REPT 0” doesn’t seem to work as it did it the official DEC assemblers.  A lot 
of code will do something like

 

   .REPT 0

THIS IS A BIG BLOCK OF COMMENTS

WE DON’T EXPECT THAT IT WILL EVER BE ASSEMBLED

MORE STUFF TO SAY HERE

   .ENDR

 

  macro11 will assemble this once (or try to, without much success) anyway, 
despite the “0”.  Is there a reason for this, or is this just a bug?

 

Thanks,

Bob Armstrong

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Re: [Simh] MIcroVAX-3900 Autoboot problems revisited ...

[Robert Armstrong]

  Answering my own question, it looks like you can give multiple commands as
the argument to "expect", so

 

set BDR 80

expect ">>>" send "BOOT DUA0\r"; continue

boot cpu

 

will work as expected.  Should have read the manual J

 

Bob

 

 

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Armstrong
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 10:25 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: [Simh] MIcroVAX-3900 Autoboot problems revisited ...

 

  There's a problem with the MicroVAX-3900 in that sometimes the ROM built
in self test fails with ?53.  That's not terrible, but it prevents the VAX
from autobooting, which can be a problem if you're running a script that
expects to start VMS.

 

  Mark suggested doing something like this in the script -

 

   set BDR 80  (disable auto boot)

   expect ">>>" send "BOOT DUA0\r"

boot cpu

 

That's OK, but I'm having a problem now.  The issue is that "boot cpu" waits
until the simulation ends (i.e. until VMS is shut down), but somehow the
"expect" is cancelling that wait.  If I use the "expect" then the commands
in the simh script after "boot cpu" get executed immediately, rather than
waiting until after VMS shuts down.  That's bad (at least for me!).

 

  Is there a way around this?

Thanks,

Bob Armstrong

 

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[Simh] MIcroVAX-3900 Autoboot problems revisited ...

[Robert Armstrong]

  There's a problem with the MicroVAX-3900 in that sometimes the ROM built
in self test fails with ?53.  That's not terrible, but it prevents the VAX
from autobooting, which can be a problem if you're running a script that
expects to start VMS.

 

  Mark suggested doing something like this in the script -

 

   set BDR 80  (disable auto boot)

   expect ">>>" send "BOOT DUA0\r"

boot cpu

 

That's OK, but I'm having a problem now.  The issue is that "boot cpu" waits
until the simulation ends (i.e. until VMS is shut down), but somehow the
"expect" is cancelling that wait.  If I use the "expect" then the commands
in the simh script after "boot cpu" get executed immediately, rather than
waiting until after VMS shuts down.  That's bad (at least for me!).

 

  Is there a way around this?

Thanks,

Bob Armstrong

 

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[Simh] Simulators for NCR Century series computers

[Robert Armstrong]

  Is anyone aware of a simulator for the NCR Century series computers?  I
know simh doesn't support them, but I thought somebody here might know of
one.

 

Thanks,

Bob Armstrong

 

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Re: [Simh] The Interconnect Task Force

[Robert Armstrong]

> Johnny Billquist  wrote:
>Wasn't both the TK50 and TU81 using LESI?

  TU81+ was definitely LESI.  Same KLESI controller; just change the CSR to the 
TMSCP address rather than the disk MSCP.

  I never saw a TU81.  Don't know if such a thing actually existed or 
not.

  The TK50/TK70 was certainly NOT LESI. 

Bob

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Re: [Simh] The Interconnect Task Force

[Robert Armstrong]

> RC25 ...

  Thanks, but I was more interested in the details of LESI if they are
available.  LESI was another mass storage "bus" that supported both disk and
tape (albeit with exactly one example of each).

  RC25s never worked which, if you had an 11/725, was sad :(

Bob

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Re: [Simh] The Interconnect Task Force (was: Origins of MSCP)

[Robert Armstrong]

> Bob Supnik [b...@supnik.org] wrote:
>Ah, yes, the Interconnect Task Force. 1980, perhaps? 
> 

  Can you say anything about LESI, "Low End Storage Interconnect"?  It was used 
by the RC25 and the TU81+ and, AFAIK, that's it.  It never really went anywhere 
and there's basically no documentation on it that I've ever seen.  I always 
wondered about the story behind that.

Thanks,
Bob



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Re: [Simh] Limits on MSCP controllers

[Robert Armstrong]

>  The KFQSA, M7769.
> Bob

P.S.  If anybody has a rack mount DSSI enclosure they'd like to part with, let 
me know.  All I have is the R400x, which wastes valuable floor space and 
doesn't go with the rack mounted uVAX...


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Re: [Simh] Limits on MSCP controllers

[Robert Armstrong]

> Johnny Billquist wrote:

>What about the DSSI controller which talks MSCP on the Qbus?
> I can't remember the name of it. But I'm not 
> sure if that one was limited to just four disks.

  The KFQSA, M7769.  Supports up to seven DSSI drives.  I have one in a 
MicroVAX-III system.  It's a pain to configure, but it otherwise works fine 
with VMS.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] VAX emulation issues on Raspberry Pi

[Robert Armstrong]

>My Raspberry Pi 2 clocks in at about 1.6 VUPS, my ESXI host is a 
>i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz (which is starved for RAM), SIMH/VAX on a VM 
>running on it clocks in at about 34.6 VUPS.  I have a i5-3470 @ 3.2Ghz 
>and SIMH runs at about 31.6 VUPS

  FWIW, this may also say something about the quality of the code generation in 
gcc for ARM vs x86 processors, or it may even say something about the relative 
efficiency of those two architectures.

  I run a MicroVAX-3900 simh on an Intel Atom D525 based server continuously.  
There are lots of little, fanless, 12V powered (for UPS) Atom based servers out 
there, and they're pretty cheap and low power.  I think mine averages about 
10W, and that includes the SSD and the fan I had to stick in it because it got 
too hot in the network closet :-)

  Empirically, just sitting there using the simulation, it feels about as fast 
as a real MicroVAX-II or III.  Logging in via ssh, assuming you're using public 
key/private key authentication, does take forever to do the initial key 
exchange but once you're authenticated it's not bad.

Bob


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Re: [Simh] VAX emulation issues on Raspberry Pi

[Robert Armstrong]

>The VAXstation has a 100MHz CPU and the RPi has a 1.2GHz CPU - about 120
>times faster.

  FWIW, that's only 12x faster (for whatever that means in this situation!), 
not 120x 

Bob


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Re: [Simh] MicroVAX 3900 simulator fails BIST sometimes?

[Robert Armstrong]

> Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
>Heisenberg effects mean that the problem is never seen

  Yep, the uncertainty principle applies to software as well...

  I'm just curious - do we (well, I don't, but somebody) have source
listings for the KA655 EPROM?  Supposedly one of the other hex numbers in
the "?53 2 0A FF 00 " message identifies the exact subtest that's
failing.  It might be interesting to know that.

Thanks,
Bob

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[Simh] MicroVAX 3900 simulator fails BIST sometimes?

[Robert Armstrong]

  I've found that on occasion the MicroVAX 3900 simh will fail the built in
self test.   Just to be clear, this is the self test that's in the
MicroVAX-III EPROM image that's failing; it's not VMS.

 

legato-hecnet.sim-73> boot cpu

 

KA655X-B V5.3, VMB 2.7

Performing normal system tests.

40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..

 

?53 2 0A FF 00 

 

P1=0002  P2=0028  P3=2712  P4=00D40077  P5=0001

P6=  P7=  P8=  P9= P10=20051CE0

r0=0007  r1=20140110  r2=6954A9F0  r3=0002FF6A  r4=6954A9FA

r5=2004E8F9  r6=00018678  r7=000186C8  r8=0001ADB2 ERF=8000

30..29..28..27..26..25..

24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..

08..07..06..05..04..03..

Normal operation not possible.

 

 

  Does anybody else have this problem?  It seems to be random and not easily
reproducible.  It happens once every dozen restarts or so, but when it does
happen I can just restart simh and it'll work fine the next time.

 

  It's a bit annoying because it makes the auto-restart of my emulated VMS
system fail..

 

Bob

 

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Re: [Simh] RQ disk formats broken in the latest build?

[Robert Armstrong]

>I suspect that might be ok.

  Well, empirically it doesn't work.  The file foo.rd54 is never created and 
the disk appears offline to any guest OK.  Not OK.  Sorry.

Bob

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[Simh] RQ disk formats broken in the latest build?

[Robert Armstrong]

  In the PDP11 simh from a couple of weeks ago, the disk image files seem to
default to simh format ..  That's what I'd expect -

 

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Currentgit commit id: 054e8e56

sim> set rq0 rd54

sim> set rq0 enable

sim> attach rq0 foo.rd54

RQ0: creating new file

sim> show rq0

RQ0 159MB, attached to foo.rd54, write enabled

RD54, autosize, SIMH format

sim>

 

  Looks good.  But in the latest version, it appears to be stuck in RAW
format!

 

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Currentgit commit id: cc7721b9

sim> set rq0 rd54

sim> set rq0 enabled

sim> attach rq0 foo.rd54

sim> show rq0

RQ0 159MB, attached to foo.rd54, write enabled

RD54, autosize, RAW format

sim>

 

  It didn't create an image file, and it's in RAW format now.  BTW, I
thought RAW format accessed a physical device.  There's no device named
"foo.rd54" - why don't I get an error for that?

 

  Worse, I can't even make it use simh format anymore -

 

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Currentgit commit id: cc7721b9

sim> set rq0 rd54

sim> set rq0 format=simh

sim> set rq0 enabled

sim> attach rq0 foo.rd54

sim> show rq0

RQ0 159MB, attached to foo.rd54, write enabled

RD54, autosize, RAW format

sim>

 

It's still in RAW format??!?  Is it supposed to be like this?

 

Bob

  

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Re: [Simh] DZ11 vs DZV/DZQ11

[Robert Armstrong]

>That should be done now.  Please confirm you're happy with the result.

  Thanks, I'll pull that down tomorrow and try it.

>distinguish between [CXA16] controller and a CXY08,  ...

  Short answer is that I don't know, but the RSX SYSGEN (for example) allows 
you to specify the number of lines per controller independently of the 
controller type.  So for the CXA16 you'd just tell it that you had a DHU or DHV 
(depending on how you set the switch on the CXA16 card) with 16 lines per 
controller.  For the CXY08 you'd do the same thing, but 8 lines per control.  
It doesn't need to know the actual hardware configuration.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] DZ11 vs DZV/DZQ11

[Robert Armstrong]

>it seems like a lot of work to address the theoretical flexibility you're 
>asking for.  :-)

  It's worth pointing out that there's a use case for simh where somebody uses 
the simulator to install software on, and build a disk image for, a real 
machine.  Once all the software is installed and configured on the simulation, 
you can transfer the disk image file to a real disk drive and plug it into a 
real machine.  Boot it up and away you go...

  There are lots of advantages to doing this - simh is way faster than a real 
machine when it comes to configuring, compiling and linking operating systems.  
It's way easier to copy of a simh disk image file to create a backup or check 
point.  If your software distros are already in the form of tap files or 
diskette images online, then it's way easier to connect them to simh then to 
write them to real media.  And so on...

  In this use case it's advantageous to be able to reproduce the exact target 
hardware configuration in simh.  This is especially true for most PDP-11 OSes, 
which require that CSRs and vectors be defined when the system is generated and 
don't autoconfigure for hardware changes (or at least they don't autoconfigure 
very well).

  There are obviously a lot of hardware combinations and the amount of effort 
that should be put into simulating all of them is debatable, but if there are 
simple fixes that can be made which would expand the range of configurations 
that can be simulated correctly then that's probably worthwhile.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] DZ11 vs DZV/DZQ11

[Robert Armstrong]

>Do you see a down side to the rounding up so the number of lines fits?

   For the DZ/DZV/DZQ case I think that will solve the problem.

   However, I think the VH case is a little more complicated -

  * The UNIBUS DH11 and DHU11 had 16 lines per interface
  * The QBUS DHV11 had 8 lines per interface
  * The QBUS CXY08 was DHU/DHV compatible and had 8 lines
  * The QBUS CXA16  ""   ""   ""   "  16 lines

  Maybe it would be easier to implement a simh command "SET [DZ|VH] 
LINES_PER_INTERFACE=..." and push the problem off on the user.  This would 
allow you to reproduce all legal hardware configurations, and create a few that 
never existed in real life.  I suppose the latter is undesirable, but there are 
several other cases in which simh can create hardware configurations that never 
actually existed.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] DZ11 vs DZV/DZQ11

[Robert Armstrong]

> accept "SET LINES=." in multiples of 4 rather than multiples of 8

 

  Actually I guess you're still going to need to know whether it's a QBUS or
UNIBUS machine so you can figure out how many DZ/DZV/DZQ cards to emulate.
It seems like there's no way out of that.

 

  BTW, I haven't looked at it, but doesn't the VH device (DH/DHQ/DHV) have
the same problem?

 

Bob

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Re: [Simh] DZ11 vs DZV/DZQ11

[Robert Armstrong]

>.. single PDP11 simulator can simulate different PDP11 models .

 

  Yes, and the UNIBUS and QBUS peripherals don't always map exactly in
functionality.  Actually I'm surprised this situation hasn't come up before
with other devices.

 

>Feel free not to use the extra ports that are provided free of charge.  J

 

  You're right - for the most part it doesn't matter.   But, . if you're
using the DZV/DZQ simulation with a TELNET port (which I imagine is what
most people do) then I don't think you can stop simh from accepting a
connection for lines 4..7 if the first four lines are already busy.  And if
you want to simulate a QBUS machine with 8 lines and two DVZ/DZQ cards, then
what the OS actually sees is all eight connections coming in on the first
card and none on the second card.  I haven't tried it yet, but I don't know
what the various -11 OSes will do when they get activity on lines that can't
physically exist.  Probably they use the same driver for both the DZ and DZV
so they won't care, but I don't know that.

 

>  What should happen when an odd number of DZV11's are configured and the
CPU type is changed .

 

Well, ideally there should be an error or warning message, but I imagine
that's difficult to implement.

 

  For me, I'd be happy if simh was changed to accept "SET LINES=." in
multiples of 4 rather than multiples of 8.  It's true that this would
possibly allow you to create invalid DZ configurations, but in my mind the
possibility of deliberately defining an invalid configuration is less
annoying than the impossibility of defining a valid configuration.

 

Bob

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[Simh] DZ11 vs DZV/DZQ11

[Robert Armstrong]

  It appears that if you want to simulate a DZV or DZQ11 on a QBUS PDP11,
then you have to use the UNIBUS DZ11 instead.  That's OK, except that a DZ11
has 8 lines per card where as the DZV and DZQ are only 4 lines per card.
Simh won't let you say "SET DZ LINES=4".  This is something of an issue
because I want to set up my simh environment to exactly mimic my real
hardware, and it appears that's not possible as far as the DZ goes.

 

  Or am I missing something??

 

  BTW, it's funny that "HELP DZ" in simh talks exclusively about the DZV11
and even says things like 

 

. The DZV11 is a 8 line terminal multiplexor. .

 

That's totally wrong.

 

Bob Armstrong

 

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Re: [Simh] IMP interfaces

[Robert Armstrong]

>Can the IMP software and the H316 simulator talk TCP/IP to an ehernet card?

  Well, the IMP software talks to one or more IMPs via a modem and an AT
leased line.  That's what IMPs do.  Simh emulates the modem using a TCP
connection.

  As others have pointed out, the original ARPANet didn't use TCP/IP at all.
That was added to later versions of the IMP software.  If you can find one
of those versions, then it should work on simh.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] IMP interfaces

[Robert Armstrong]

>Presumably the Honeywell 516?

 

  In the case of simh it’s actually the H316 simulator.  This already contains 
a fully functional IMP simulator that was written a few years ago.  I hope 
people know that.

 

   Hopefully you will make your KA host interface card talk to the 1822 card 
emulation that’s already in simh.  That way you should be able to use the 
original IMP software which already runs on the H316 emulation.

 

Bob

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Re: [Simh] DIY microfiche scanner?

[Robert Armstrong]

>Yes, DECserver 200 TM would be nice :)

  The DS200 is a 68000 based box, right?  Does the source code for the load 
image exist somewhere?

Bob

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Re: [Simh] simh & pdp-8 os-8 forums / help

[Robert Armstrong]

  Have you read the OS/8 handbook?  It tells you pretty much everything there 
is to know about OS/8.  You can find a copy on bitsavers,

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/

I've never used the OS/8 image that comes with simh so I’m only guessing, but 
it sounds like it doesn't have a device driver for the printer (it's called a 
device "handler" in OS/8 lingo) installed.   You'll need to install one.  It 
tells you how to do that in the handbook.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] VAX 8200

[Robert Armstrong]

  I fired up the 8350 today and (amazingly!) it still works.  Sadly some of my 
disk drives are not so well off, but I was still able to boot it.  I've imaged 
the console RX50, which is an RT11 file system, and the two diagnostic floppies 
("DIAG SUPER" and "UTIL").  Those last two are in Files-11 format.  FWIW, the 
DIAG UTIL floppy contains an image of the EEPROM as copied by the DEC 
diagnostic program.

  I've converted all three diskettes to simh RX50 image files, which I presume 
is the most useful format.  Where would be a good place to archive them for the 
82xx/83xx simulator project?

  BTW, if anybody has any RA7x drives that they'd be willing to part with, 
please let me know.  I'll be eternally in your debt!  Two of the three drives I 
have on that machine appear to have died since I last used it.  Sadly, keeping 
the electronics running is not nearly as hard as keeping the mechanical parts 
going...

Bob

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Re: [Simh] VAX 8200

[Robert Armstrong]

>Timothe Litt (l...@ieee.org) wrote:

>Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write 
>it to disk.

  Actually it looks like the EEPROM utility (VAX 8200 Owner’s Manual, chapter 
3) can save the entire EEPROM image to a file.  I’ll see what I can do.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] VAX 8200

[Robert Armstrong]

>Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write 
>it to disk.

  Um, fair enough.  I don’t suppose someone has a program already written to do 
this?  

  I could have easily done that about ten or fifteen years ago, and in theory I 
still can, but it’ll probably take an afternoon with the VMS manuals to 
remember how J

Bob

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Re: [Simh] VAX 8200

[Robert Armstrong]

>Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? 

  Do you know a way to extract a copy of the EEPROM image from the machine?   
If not, is the chip socketed?  Do you know the part number off hand?  If it's 
socketed AND it's a standard part I can probably read it in my EPROM programmer.

Bob



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Re: [Simh] VAX 730 Console Tapes [was: VAX 8200]

[Robert Armstrong]

> Johnny Billquist (b...@softjar.se) wrote:
>My only comment is that I normally never booted from the TU58.
>Why would you do that, except at initial install, or to run diagnostics.

  You're confusing the 730 with the 750.  On a 730 you didn't have any choice, 
assuming you're starting from power off.  The CPU microcode, CFE software, VMB, 
and pretty much everything else was stored on the TU58. 

  The 750 was a different matter.  The microcode was in ROM, VMB was in the 
boot block on the disk, and you could live without the TU58.

Bob

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Re: [Simh] VAX 8200

[Robert Armstrong]

> I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system 
> volume

  FWIW, on the 7xx machines there was a DCL script provided by DEC called 
CONSCOPY.  It used EXCHANGE to copy the console media to a disk container and 
vice versa.  Can't remember if the 8200/8300 machines had the same thing, but I 
wouldn't be surprised.  I'm pretty sure the 8200/8300 console floppies were in 
RT11 format, so EXCHANGE would do the job.

Bob


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Re: [Simh] VAX 8200

[Robert Armstrong]

> Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote:
>I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright).  

  I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or 
something.

  It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore 
interesting for those reason.  It's the only such machine that I could fit in 
my garage :-)

  It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally 
interesting for that reason too.  FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation 
to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that 
there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards.

Bob Armstrong

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Re: [Simh] TSS-8 and ETOS free-redistribution licenses (PDP-8 operating systems)

[Robert Armstrong]

> Johnny Billquist wrote:

>I am pretty sure that DEC did release OS/8 at some point. 

  DEC released OS/278, including sources, to DECUS back when the latter still 
carried PDP-8 software.  It even had an official "8-nnn" DECUS number; I don't 
remember it off hand, but I could find out.  As far as I'm concerned, that 
effectively makes OS/278 in the public domain.

  Unfortunately OS/278 was the somewhat hacked up version of OS/8 for the 
DECmate family.  It lacked many of the handlers and CUSPS related to 
traditional OMNIBUS hardware.  I also don't think the sources for any of the 
languages (e.g. BASIC, FORTRAN-IV, etc) were released with it.  Of course all 
these sources exist and aren't that hard to find, but AFAIK their legal status 
is up in the air.

Bob


  

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Re: [Simh] Emacs-clone for RSX?

[Robert Armstrong]

>So you have lots of #ifdef msdos, and whatnot, ...

  You could always just remove all the conditionals and create an RSX only 
fork.  Some people might say that's the Wrong Thing To Do, but I prefer to be 
less judgmental and simply observe that it might be "less than optimal".  Still 
useful, however.

  Personally I'd really like to see an Emacs for RSX.  I'm perfectly happy with 
EDT when a VTxxx terminal is available, but often it is not, especially when 
using simh.  VTxxx emulation on a PC doesn't solve the problem since the keypad 
layout is just not quite the same, and my right hand was hardwired with the EDT 
key bindings many, many years ago.  It can't be changed anymore :-)

Bob


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Re: [Simh] Emacs-clone for RSX?

[Robert Armstrong]

>"Small" in this case is more than 10 times the size of NEMA... 

  Sorry, I'm joining this conversation late, but has anybody brought up JOVE?  
It's a pretty good Emacs clone and it runs on 2.11bsd.  If it can run under BSD 
on a PDP11, it ought to be able to run under RSX!! :-)


http://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.4BSD/usr/contrib/man/cat1/jove.0

Bob



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Re: [Simh] Question about card readers.

[Robert Armstrong]

> IBM 96-column cards ... the IBM System/3 and perhaps other

  And UNIVAC had a 90 column card for a long time.  It looked something like a 
traditional Hollerith card but had round punches and two rows of six bit 
characters.

Bob
 


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Re: [Simh] RTS/8 and DECnet

[Robert Armstrong]

>As I said, I did not have DECnet/8 in hand 30 years ago

  Sorry - I missed that part...

  I just skimmed the manual, but it looks like DECnet-8 was really limited.  
It's basically a toolkit for writing your own applications that talk via 
DECnet; the only standard applications supplied are TLK and LSN (sort of the 
PDP-8 equivalent to PHONE).  There's no FAL, NFT or RMT task.  It doesn't seem 
like there's much you can do with it unless you want to write a bunch of 
software first.

  Or is there something I'm missing?

Bob



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Re: [Simh] RTS/8 and DECnet

[Robert Armstrong]

>but I brought RTS/8 up on real hardware 30 years ago.

  What communications hardware does it require??  A DP8/E?  Or can it do async 
DDCMP with a KL8/E?

Bob

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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Robert Armstrong]

>Yes, it was him. See also simh/H316/h316_hi.c:

  Yep, as I mentioned Charles Anthony recently (well, last Christmas) 
implemented the host interface for the DPS8.  I'm not sure what changes he made 
to the h316_hi module or whether they've found their way back into the simh 
source tree, but at least now there is an existence proof.

Bob Armstrong

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Re: [Simh] Non-numeric character in IBM 1620 P & Q addresses

[Robert Armstrong]

>So either no core is selected or multiple cores are selected.
> Now what happens? 

  The unanswered question here is "What are the conditions for setting MAR 
CHECK"?

  If an invalid digit in the MAR sets MAR CHECK, then the decoding is 
irrelevant.

Bob

P.S.  Merry Christmas, guys!

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Re: [Simh] Non-numeric character in IBM 1620 P & Q addresses

[Robert Armstrong]

> an invalid digit in MAR generates MAR ERROR, lights the MAR 
>CHK LAMP, and stops the system.

  I thought that might be the case.  Thanks for researching it.

  BTW, I was wrong about the check stop switch bypassing the MAR CHECK - I 
found several references in the manual that make it clear that the PROGRAM/STOP 
switch in the MAR CHECK, MBR-E CHECK and MBR-O check column does NOT have any 
effect on the MAR CHECK.  It only affects MBR-E/O parity error stops.  MAR 
CHECK always stops the machine.

  There is a switch on the CE panel inside the machine which bypasses the MAR 
CHECK, but that was for field service.  It wouldn't have been used in any 
normal conditions.

  So it looks like an invalid digit in the MAR was considered a hard error and 
would always halt the machine instantly.  Since the original problem was a bad 
digit in one of the address fields (I forget which) of a TD instruction, it 
seems like that never would have worked on a real 1620.  That means either the 
original program image is wrong, or there's a bug elsewhere in the simulator.

Bob A



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Re: [Simh] Non-numeric character in IBM 1620 P & Q addresses

[Robert Armstrong]

 

>Is the RM and possibly Group Mark valid in a P or Q address and if so, what 
>would be the 

>value in the address? Could the RM be a 0 and the GM () be a 5 using 
>modulo 10.

 

  My guess would be that an RM (or any other invalid digit) does nothing 
special when entered into the MARS, but that it would cause a MAR CHECK stop if 
or when it ended up in the MAR.   That means fetching instruction with an 
invalid P or Q digit wouldn’t cause any error, but attempting to reference that 
address would.  There are some instructions that don’t use the P or Q fields or 
don’t use them as memory addresses and for those instructions I’d expect that 
an invalid P or Q digit would be ignored.

 

  But you said it was a TD instruction and AFAIK that uses both operands as 
memory addresses.  I’d expect that to halt the machine with a MAR CHECK 
assuming the corresponding check stop switch was turned on.  That last part may 
be the key – a real machine wouldn’t halt on this error if the switch was off.

 

  That’s my best guess…

 

Bob

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Re: [Simh] Hardware fidelity in the VAX family simulators

[Robert Armstrong]

I haven't found microcode sources or listings for the 750, 730,
 MicroVAX I, or 8600, for example. 

  FWIW, the 725/730 was somewhat unique in that the micro store was entirely 
RAM.  All of the microcode was loaded by the CFE at power on and none was in 
ROM.  Also, the 730 micro engine was based on industry standard 29xx family bit 
slice parts.  It was a little like the 11/60 in that it was easy, in theory at 
least, to write custom microcode.  I've heard that certain customized versions 
of the 730 microcode were produced for special needs, and that DEC even 
supported this with some development tools, but I've never seen any such thing 
in the wild.

  So, if anyway if anybody does find the sources or development tools for the 
730/725 microcode, I'd love to see a copy.

  Back to Bob's topic, I do have a running 730 system that could be powered on 
more or less any time.  I'm willing to run tests if anybody needs to experiment 
with the behavior of real hardware.  It's even on HECnet, so I could make 
remote access available.

Bob Armstrong



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Re: [Simh] Hardware fidelity in the VAX family simulators

[Robert Armstrong]

Even thinking of being absolutely dependent on a TU58 to even start the
 machine is bad. Not to mention slow...

  Just don't turn it off :-)

Bob


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[Simh] Repository for software kits?

[Robert Armstrong]

  Is there a repository for the software kits that go with the various
simulators?  There are many available for download on the trailing-edge
page, but I don't know if that's the master source.

 

  I have 1620 software kits for SPS (assembler) and FORTRAN that I'd like to
submit.  These will work on the 4.0 and later simh versions, but not any
earlier version.

 

Bob

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