Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Hello Eleonore wrote: "My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural appropriation (and rejection)". With this war, we have landed in the situation, where its not anymore that easy to play with "multiple perspectives and modalities" before the ground is not clear and stable enough, before we are not on the same page.. I wrote already, in this situation there are only clearly two sides - either supporting Ukraine or being pro-Putin, there doesn't exist democratic "multiple perspectives and modalities" in this case as we don't deal with democratic country... And your anecdote just shows that there are many misleading ideas around.. this is what I wrote in my reply to Heath: the problem is that most of the marxist-communist-thinking people in the West (who have read bit too much of French and Russian philosophy or literature) today have to revise their theories, notions and realise finally they have been following the wrong dreams (nightmares, trust me...). So it's now your turn, dear people living in UK, and other wealthy Western countries, to put some effort in changing your thinking, your perspectives, and before joining the funny May day parades, and reading 100 years old authors (who have no clue how the communism works in real life), or listen 92 years old capitalism critics (such as Chomsky) please re-think twice before you write something that naive as comparing America's Disney's land "propaganda" with Russia's aggressive invasion targeting civilians, killing children, raping women in Ukraine, which is happening there everyday. So why not, please do so - change your way of thinking, finally! Please be so empathetic that you at least pretend to do so - for a sake of Ukraine's disaster... We, people here in Eastern Europe are used to switch our perspectives constantly, we have done it so many times that we now even cannot answer a simple question: "and how is your tradition (e.g. in Latvia) with the education, for example?" I am sorry, there is no such thing as "our way or our tradition!" we have been listening for almost 30 years British experts, we have learned from the most amazing Finnish school experience, and we have adapted exams from German "abitur", we have been trying hard, and still are one of the most poor countries in EU, BUT - I wouldn't call it "colonising", and never ever would even think of going back to anything similar that was once called "the Soviet Union" - NB! btw- there never was such a thing as USSR, it was just an extended Russia'n Empire with unfairly and aggressively occupied neighbouring countries before and during WW2, who were forced to believe that Russians have "saved and freed us" and that "they brought the real culture" (making us feel lesser), but they didn't succeed, nobody inside of USSR believed in this bullshit... Just sadly I never realized that the communist propaganda was so effective beyond the USSR border, that some people in West and otehr parts of the world truly believed that USSR may be a better alternative to Western capitalism... But talking about the "Soviet times", there was even big difference between Ryszard's and mine childhood, because Ryszard lived in Poland, but I lived in Soviet Latvia, which was a part of USSR, and this was such a big difference that for some time I even didn't realize that Poland, Yugoslavia, Chechoslovakia etc. belonged to the so called "soviet" block, because for us at USSR (with completely cut any information or culture coming from the West) - even Poland seemed like beautiful and shiny country "abroad", where everything was much more better then in soviet uni. When I went to the school in 1970s, I had to participate in special military parade competitions every year couple of times; we were singing the hymn of Russia and the hymn of USSR, and when we won the competition in the school level - then we participated in the national level..., and singing all these songs (in Russian), marching, and shouting loud how much we love Lenin... while at the same time, we all - everybody of us: starting from the 1st grade children to the director of the school knew that all this are the lies, the total bullshit, but we were not allowed to question anything of that, we just did it, as we had to. And if you ever asked something or initiated anything (because all things around which I saw in my childhood were so wrong, so dirty, so terrible, and grey...), you were shut up quickly as you gradually realized that nothing ever can be done, neither achieved, nor succeded... the holes on the roads would never get repaired, the light in your corridor if once broken, would never get fixed either, your staircase in communal house of course was never cleaned, in the shops was only the seller herself, as nothing was available (e.g. from drinks - only birch juice, sweet with sugar, in 3l jars, from
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Hello Ryszard, Thanks for your email, and for sharing your view and experience. I'd clarify here: my childhood desire was towards the unknown, that which was not described, as no one was telling us what was really going on in Russia, all we had was the fake American dream (which included the commodification of female bodies) and literature from the past. I am also aware that I was very lucky and privileged growing up in a house full of any sorts of books, also having access to many libraries. My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural appropriation (and rejection). I am not disputing what was better or worse, or whose childhood was happier. The idea was to acknowledge that also in the West some had a curiosity or a wish that that which was not the status quo could be better than the real they had to experience. And I am not at all saying that being under Russian influence is in any way a good thing, I am simply saying that the game at stake is a power game, it is unfortunately not about anyone's freedom, or better interest, but profit. I am sorry if my email was unclear and you had the impression I was trying to decide where to move to, it couldn't be further away from what I was trying to express. Best wishes Eleonora X, PhD. On 2022-07-17 21:47, Ryszard Kluszczyński wrote: Dear Eleonora, let me quote you: "During my childhood, in Milan in the 80s, I had an opposite experience than yours: my country had been culturally colonised by the US (cinema TV clothing etc), and they did think they were better. Most people did not notice at all they were colonised, because they had been brainwashed. As I happened to dislike American cinema and Disney's total animation, but I did read a lot of Italian and French and Russian literature and philosophy, I must say it did happen to me during my childhood to wish I was in the Soviet Union instead, hoping that that would be a better alternative from the dumb hypnotic imperialism that had subsumed my contemporaries." During my childhood in Poland in the 60s, I was not so happy as you in the 80s. You could have decided what to read. The Soviet-Russian censorships deprived me of such possibilities. You were happy to avoid the experioence what it really means to live in the colonised country, colonised society. But it doesn't mean you should not try to imagine and understand what it is really. Anyway you can try to realise your desire from your childhood. You can move to Russia to become the resident. But resident not just visitor. I understand if you don't decide to do it. A French famous film actor who did it once (to avoid paying taxes in France) is already back as I heard. Good luck whatever you decide to do Ryszard .. Prof. Ryszard W. Kluszczynski, PhD. Chair of Department of New Media and Digital Culture University of Lodz 171/173 Pomorska Street 90-236 Lodz Poland tel +426655133 On 17 Jul 2022, at 18:00, xname wrote: During my childhood, in Milan in the 80s, I had an opposite experience than yours: my country had been culturally colonised by the US (cinema TV clothing etc), and they did think they were better. Most people did not notice at all they were colonised, because they had been brainwashed. As I happened to dislike American cinema and Disney's total animation, but I did read a lot of Italian and French and Russian literature and philosophy, I must say it did happen to me during my childhood to wish I was in the Soviet Union instead, hoping that that would be a better alternative from the dumb hypnotic imperialism that had subsumed my contemporaries. -- phantasmata and illusions @oracle666 http://xname.cc__ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Dear Rasa, Thanks for sharing, and I send you all blessings from London. The way I read Heats' questions is different, as imho it is always good to know who is funding a project and whether those involved as somewhat "objects" of the publication have the tools (ie can read the story) to participate in the discussion. It is also fair to remember that the Netherlands has a certain reputation of having journalists thrilled to get involved and enunciate sentences about "other people's wars" (possibly moved by the kick in adrenaline to temporarily forget their lingering depressive boredom, eventually stemming from a Ritalin infused society...). This isn't obviously about Geert but the general tendency of a small privileged society who gives itself credits to comment on other people's non privileged societies from shiny institutes with ergonomic chairs and fast bandwidth, eventually staring at the ducks swimming through large windows facing the canal. But this is also a partial story infected of stereotypes. Because the discussion is of course much more complex. Every time there is a war, there is someone, some "parts", that are making money because of the world. Big money. There is also another reality: the function of weapons is to kill and make war. If you add weapons to the table, you'll increase the "phase space" of a war. By no means increasing weapons diminishes war. Such weapons have also another function, that of making a few rich. It is numerical. These are simple facts, not judgment, not theory. During my childhood, in Milan in the 80s, I had an opposite experience than yours: my country had been culturally colonised by the US (cinema TV clothing etc), and they did think they were better. Most people did not notice at all they were colonised, because they had been brainwashed. As I happened to dislike American cinema and Disney's total animation, but I did read a lot of Italian and French and Russian literature and philosophy, I must say it did happen to me during my childhood to wish I was in the Soviet Union instead, hoping that that would be a better alternative from the dumb hypnotic imperialism that had subsumed my contemporaries. Saying that Biden and the United States are worried about "freedom" and the freedom of Ukraine, makes me grimly grin. First of all, the US has done the same several times, for example when it invaded Afganistan. Where they fighting for peace? Secondly, NATO's incessant expansion was clearly tilting any possible balance, or that which was left and gave stability during the cold war, the binomial function that divided the world but somehow also kept it together. And you know what happens when you have a dickhead on the one hand, and another dickhead on the other: things suddenly crack! Especially if these two dickheads who are toying with the future of the world basically don't care about the future at all because they are old and they shall retire rather than approach international politics without any logic or fear because there is nothing better than a great big final collective showdown, rather than a slow lonely end in the countryside. But there is more: as much as making more weapons is not obviously going to stop the war, there is also a linguistic issue at play, or better a semiotic one. This war has reintroduced the cult for words such as courage, nation, heroism, all masculine virtues connected to patriotism. But, personally, I don't believe in national identity, I don't want borders, I don't care about patriotism, I despise it. And maybe there are some women in Ukraine who think so too. But ultimately it is all very sad and I don't have any answers, I am just as confused by the many viewpoints, and of course it is great that the Dutch are using some of their funding to make a well designed English publication in homage to the people who are dying - and perhaps they are also trying to make some theory about what's happening, but I did wonder where the money was coming from too as sometimes oppressors (or weapons producers) hire and finance their own opposition, that happens all the time, so instead of having someone against them, the opponents become their employees, it's a brilliant strategy wildly used in the UK too to make things appear as if they had a broad critical spectrum, as if there was freedom of speech. So, if I was Geert, I'd have just shared the info immediately rather than reacting in a defensive tone. In the end, I don't speak Russian, altho I did try to study it when I was in primary school, and it took a long time to find a book as there was no manual, no books, no recordings, nothing. But I did learn the alphabet and the first word I looked up, which stayed with me forever, was мир -/mir/, PEACE. My 2 cents Eleonora PS Paolo Fabbri, my professor of semiotics, used to say that 'peace' is an active process, which requires more energy and force because it has to
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
El 2022-07-17 11:30, i...@madatac.es escribió: Bravo Rasa, Perfectly expressed the real face and objectives of Ruscism. Russia, the greatest terrorist country of this world, accuses Ukraine of an "act of terrorism" after their destruction of a Russian ammunition depot in Nova Kakhovka... but they do not stop bombing civilian and medical facilities in Ukraine. Actually, only the lack of mental clarity, due to their known alcoholism, and their extreme wickedness, cruelty and cynicism, makes Russia leaders react in this way, as they see how they are not only losing the war but losing thousands of soldiers and weapons each day, an inconceivable reality that make them shout like the typical neighborhood thug ,finally beaten up by the neighbors. The defeat of Russian fascism by democratic Ukraine will change the course of history and allow us to get rid of an inhuman form of country and state. Remember and don't forget, there is still a genocidal war against the civilian population of Ukraine that has wiped from the Russian society any hint of civilization, an ethnic and cultural cleansing carried out by the inhuman criminal Russian terrorist state. Slava Ukraini, Slava Heroiam! Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine: "The Russian people share the responsibility for the crimes that Putin is committing." Iury El 2022-07-17 10:57, Rasa Smite escribió: heath I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your point, may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia). there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are Russians. can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ? of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European meetings. so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as country, or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 140 million people there really think.. or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later). so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian militarists continue to kill and rape... so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now... any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed. Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before questioning, if they are trustful enough for you. and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer
Re: [spectre] answers || Dispatches from Ukraine
geert i am finding it very difficult to understand the urgency to counter russian state propaganda here in the uk, its impossible to show neutrality or any support for operation z - you will be emotionally or violently attacked this is the result of a NATO mass propaganda campaign targetted at the domestic population here the news is constantly that putin is insane, likes killing kids and ukraine is winning the war i am sure the situation is the same in .nl so why focuss on .ru propaganda ? it is having almost zero effect on the western populations how does your project differ from western state propaganda units spreading anti-russian dis-information to the general public ? regards heath On Sun, 17 Jul 2022, Geert Lovink wrote: From: 1 &23%#719 <123...@proton.me> Subject: answers || Dispatches from Ukraine Date: 16 July 2022 at 8:01:22 am GMT+2 To: "ge...@xs4all.nl" Reply-To: 1 &23%#719 <123...@proton.me> >> who are the funders of this project (any non-aligned countries) ? The project is conducted mainly with Waag, Universiteit van Amsterdam, Free Press Unlimited, HvA, and us, the Institute of Network Cultures. All the organisations are based in the Netherlands. The publication is printed on demand by Lulu. No other funding or support is involved. >> are ukrainian citizens (not 'shocked' but liberated) from the donbas region included in this project ? Lia Dostlieva is a Luhansk born author, who fled the country after the full-scale invasion in February. Almost all the other authors have been residing in what is now non-occupied parts of Ukraine. >> is this publication available to russian speaking ukrainian citizens or is the russian language banned in his publication as well as in ukraine ? The whole publication is in English with all the authors submitting the essays in this language. Thus, the publication is unfortunately exclusive for those who do not speak English. There is some Russian used in the screenshots explaining Russian state propaganda in the text by Ukrainian researcher Karyna Lazaruk and Marc Tuters. __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Is Ukraine the Ukrainian population?If Ukraine (or the Ukrainian population) wants to continue fighting, I am the last to comment on it. They will pay a blood roll of around 100-200 deaths a day. And that over the next 1-2 years. With or without weapons from the West. I don't think the war can be won for Ukraine, in the sense that the Russians are thrown out of the Krim and from the Donbass.You, Ryszard have to understand that Ukraine not only suffers from Putin's criminal regim, but is dependent on the same extent of America and its willingness to deliver weapons or willingness to talk.with Putin. Christoph Ryszard Kluszczyński schrieb: Christoph, you should rather not speak on behalf of Ukraine, it’s quite ridiculous. You even misspell the name of the Ukrainian region you talk about. We, citizens of the countries in this part of Europe, too often heard voices like yours saying what we should do for our own sake. In the situation when Finland is part of NATO treaty, the eventual membership of Ukraine is not significant anymore. The war is not about this. And has never been. And this is not we to end the war. Ukraine wants to do it but the conditions must be defined by them, not “us”. Our countries and we - and you too - just have to help Ukrainiens to get to the situation when they could negotiate the peace with Russia. They need just weapons to get to this point not good advices. Ukraine is an independent country. Do you remember? And Ukrainiens have the right to decide what is good for them. Take care Ryszard …... Prof. Ryszard W. Kluszczynski, PhD. Chair of Department of New Media and Digital Culture University of Lodz 171/173 Pomorska Street 90-236 Lodz Poland tel +426655133 On 17 Jul 2022, at 12:28, christoph theiler wrote: Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine. It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust them etc., but the American administration is not lying, it refuses to speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to humiliate the Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The last American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump. The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the Americans cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of the Solomon Islands to China. So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this conflict: the American, the Ukrainian and the Russian. The European side is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On which side are you?", Or to interture the subintellectual calculation: "Do you really want the Russians to kill even more children?" This is not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and under what conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what objectives or consequences should the war continue?" There are really two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The conditions that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be the constant loss of the Krim, a transition status of the Dombas, permanent neutrality of Ukraine. Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting until it is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years. Christoph wechselstrom Rasa Smite schrieb: heath I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your point, may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia). there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are Russians. can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ? of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
rasa i think its worth drawing a distinction between the soviet union and the russian federation both politically and historically i understand that living next to russia after years of occupation by the soviet union is very different to living in the uk i don't believe russia has any intention to invade latvia unless latvian ethnic russians are systematically killed by latvian nazis and nato constructs a network of offences bio-war labs along the lv/ru border its important to not allow our past traumas to be exploited by foreign agents lithuanian seems likely to be the first baltic country to be attacked given its very provocative blockade of kalingrad hope all is well heath On Sun, 17 Jul 2022, Rasa Smite wrote: heath I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your point, may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia). there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are Russians. can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ? of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European meetings. so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as country, or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 140 million people there really think.. or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later). so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian militarists continue to kill and rape... so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now... any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed. Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before questioning, if they are trustful enough for you. and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to live in your "rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have experienced both - communist and capitalist governments. And here I am largely suspicious about your pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's May 1st Day activist ambivalent intents (how I call them - marxists with Porsche): may be you simply don't want countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc. to share with your capitalist "goods" and people achieving just to live their normal lives? best Rasa On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote: jaanis thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making good
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine. It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust them etc., but the American administration is not lying, it refuses to speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to humiliate the Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The last American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump. The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the Americans cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of the Solomon Islands to China. So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this conflict: the American, the Ukrainian and the Russian. The European side is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On which side are you?", Or to interture the subintellectual calculation: "Do you really want the Russians to kill even more children?" This is not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and under what conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what objectives or consequences should the war continue?" There are really two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The conditions that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be the constant loss of the Krim, a transition status of the Dombas, permanent neutrality of Ukraine. Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting until it is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years. Christoph wechselstrom Rasa Smite schrieb: heath I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your point, may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia). there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are Russians. > can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ? of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European meetings. so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as country, or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 140 million people there really think.. or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later). so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian militarists continue to kill and rape... so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now... any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed. Jaanis
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
heath I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your point, may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia). there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are Russians. > can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ? of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European meetings. so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as country, or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 140 million people there really think.. or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later). so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian militarists continue to kill and rape... so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now... any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed. Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before questioning, if they are trustful enough for you. and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to live in your "rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have experienced both - communist and capitalist governments. And here I am largely suspicious about your pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's May 1st Day activist ambivalent intents (how I call them - marxists with Porsche): may be you simply don't want countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc. to share with your capitalist "goods" and people achieving just to live their normal lives? best Rasa On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote: jaanis thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making good decision on these though, as it takes years of careful scrutiny to determine whether sources are reliable and not mouthpieces for in-tell agencies why does russian state propaganda matter to grass roots activists ? i would have thought super-state propaganda vs sub-state propaganda is more relevant can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ? overwhelming evidence suggestions that unlawful trans-national entities such as empires (united state of america empire: USAE) are a greater threat to individuals/ humanity than lawfully constituted nation states what's more of a threat to peace ? 1000 foreign USAE military bases or 2 russian foreign military bases ? hope all is well heath On Sat, 16 Jul 2022,
[spectre] answers || Dispatches from Ukraine
> From: 1 &23%#719 <123...@proton.me> > Subject: answers || Dispatches from Ukraine > Date: 16 July 2022 at 8:01:22 am GMT+2 > To: "ge...@xs4all.nl" > Reply-To: 1 &23%#719 <123...@proton.me> > > >> who are the funders of this project (any non-aligned countries) ? > The project is conducted mainly with Waag, Universiteit van Amsterdam, Free > Press Unlimited, HvA, and us, the Institute of Network Cultures. All the > organisations are based in the Netherlands. The publication is printed on > demand by Lulu. No other funding or support is involved. > > >> are ukrainian citizens (not 'shocked' but liberated) from the donbas > >> region included in this project ? > Lia Dostlieva is a Luhansk born author, who fled the country after the > full-scale invasion in February. Almost all the other authors have been > residing in what is now non-occupied parts of Ukraine. > > >> is this publication available to russian speaking ukrainian citizens or is > >> the russian language banned in his publication as well as in ukraine ? > The whole publication is in English with all the authors submitting the > essays in this language. Thus, the publication is unfortunately exclusive for > those who do not speak English. There is some Russian used in the screenshots > explaining Russian state propaganda in the text by Ukrainian researcher > Karyna Lazaruk and Marc Tuters. __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
