RE: different k-factors in same area

[Larry Keeping]

As per 8.15.23.3 and 8.15.23.3.1, the sprinklers are to be extended above the 
office ceiling a for distance equal to 0.6 times the square root of the design 
area, but a minimum of 24 ft.

To my way of thinking, this means that the density out in the warehouse is to 
be extended over the office that far, which means that the k-factor should be 
the same as that of the warehouse sprinklers.

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: March-02-17 2:28 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: different k-factors in same area

Ok, so I go back to my previous post.

If it's just a suspended ceiling and there no combustibles above, no platforms, 
etc., you should be good with extending the whse roof sprinklers 15 ft beyond 
the half wall into the ceiling space above the office as noted in the NFPA 
excerpt I quoted earlier.

FYI, this is predicated upon the space above the office not being able to be 
used in any way for storage or any fuel fired equipment platforms.




Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Tim Easter
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 9:51 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: different k-factors in same area [EXTERNAL]

What is the height of the warehouse roof/ceiling? 40'
What is the height of the half wall? 28'
What is the height of the office ceiling? 14'
Is the space above the office ceiling walled off from the warehouse? no




Tim Easter, PE
W.W. Gay Fire & Integrated  Systems, Inc.
522 Stockton Street
Jacksonville, FL 32204
Phone: (904) 387-7973  Cell: (904) 476-4325  Fax: (904) 394-7261




 This electronic message contains information from W. W. Gay Fire 
Protection, Inc., which may be confidential or privileged. The information is 
for use of the individual or the entity named above. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution 
or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this 
electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately at 
1-904-387-7973.

From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com 
[mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: different k-factors in same area

Another case of where more info helps drive the answers.

What is the height of the warehouse roof/ceiling?
What is the height of the half wall?
What is the height of the office ceiling?
Is the space above the office ceiling walled off from the warehouse?


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Tim Easter
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 8:58 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: different k-factors in same area [EXTERNAL]

I have a half-wall that separates an office area from a warehouse area. The 
design is for K factors of 8.0 inside warehouse area, and 5.6 inside office 
area. But since the halfwall doesn't reach the deck the area above the office 
area protected from the ceiling  must have same k-factor as warehouse correct? 
Can anyone point that out in NFPA 13 as a code reference?



Tim Easter, PE
[Description: Description: Description: 
http://www.wwgfp.com/MailLogo.gif]
522 Stockton Street
Jacksonville, FL 32204
Office: (904) 387-7973  Cell: (904) 476-4325  Fax: (904) 394-7261





 This electronic message contains information from W. W. Gay Fire 
Protection, Inc., which may be confidential or privileged. The information is 
for use of the individual or the entity named above. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution 
or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this 
electronic transmission in error, please notify us immediately at 
1-904-387-7973.

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: RE: Single hydrant flow tests.

[Larry Keeping]

Way-back-when, here in Canada the Insurance Advisory Organization published a 
booklet about flow testing. It is the only place I’ve ever seen that discussed 
single hydrant flow testing and it advised that one hydrant testing could be 
used as a check on the other tests or as a test method when less than 750 gpm 
is required or anticipated, but warned that it is not accurate.

Because of this, I’ve always avoided single hydrant tests and only did them 
when the demand would be less than 750 and where there were no other options, 
due to there being only one hydrant available and no other outlets that I could 
use to record static and residual pressures.

Please note, the industry standard is 2 hydrant testing, as per the methodology 
laid out in NFPA 291.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com
Sent: March-03-17 10:36 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: Re: RE: Single hydrant flow tests.

Matt,

I always like to witness the flow test whenever I can. I want to make sure they 
are doing it right. We have one company that charges $600 for a test and I end 
up doing it because they have no clue.

My point is that I get hydrant information from contractors a lot of times as 
part of the bid package. I wonder if anyone uses info from the water company 
verifies what they do.



On Mar 3, 2017 at 8:28 AM, mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>> wrote:
Many of the water companies around here will set a time and allow you to come 
out and watch – is it close enough that you can supervise?

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08 AM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Single hydrant flow tests.

I recently found a local water company does their flow tests using only single 
hydrants (flow and pressure on the same hydrant). Fortunately I have not done 
very much work there. Who verifies the methodology with a water purveyor when 
they get test results? Obviously not many people in my area as they had to look 
up how to do a 2 hydrant test before we did the new one.
___ Sprinklerforum mailin
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Dry system return bend - aux drain needed?

[Matthew J Willis]

Does the ½” outlet provided by removing the sprinkler not satisfy this?

Unless you have some more trapping?

R/
Matt

Matthew J. Willis
Project Manager
Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605.348.2342
Direct Line-605.593.5063
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108

[cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 11:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Dry system return bend - aux drain needed?

NFPA 13 (07ed)

Section 8.16.2.5.3.3 states that aux drains are not required for pipe drops 
supplying dry-pendant sprinklers installed per 7.2.2
7.2.2 address both listed dry type sprinklers and pendant sprinklers installed 
on a return bend in a heated space

I have someone questioning if aux drains are required for pendant sprinklers on 
return bends because they not specifically “dry-pendant”.  I have always 
figured that if they were in section 7.2.2 then no aux drain would be needed.  
What say’s the forum on this?
Thanks,

Dewayne

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Dry system return bend - aux drain needed?

[Dewayne Martinez]

NFPA 13 (07ed)



Section 8.16.2.5.3.3 states that aux drains are not required for pipe drops
supplying dry-pendant sprinklers installed per 7.2.2

7.2.2 address both listed dry type sprinklers and pendant sprinklers
installed on a return bend in a heated space



I have someone questioning if aux drains are required for pendant
sprinklers on return bends because they not specifically “dry-pendant”.  I
have always figured that if they were in section 7.2.2 then no aux drain
would be needed.  What say’s the forum on this?

Thanks,



Dewayne
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Canopy

[Ryan Labrie]

8.15.7.2 Specifically excludes sprinklers from noncombustible canopies, 
porte-coheres, and other similar projects from a building. A 8.15.7.2 even 
states “Vehicles that are temporarily parked are not considered storage...”

I would point out 8.15.7.2 to the engineer and ask where his requirement is 
coming from as Matt previously stated.

Ryan Labrie
Fire Protection Designer

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.394.3978
Email:  
rlab...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

[cid:image001.gif@01D29416.6962A6F0]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Allen- Allen Engineering
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 11:55 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Canopy


Is it a canopy or porte-cochere where vehicles enter or leave? IBC CANOPY 
definition: A structure, enclosure or shelter constructed of fabric or pliable 
materials supported by any manner, except by air or the contents it protects, 
and is open without sidewalls or drops on 75 percent or more of the perimeter.



AHJ’s often require porte-cochere's to be sprinklered (even if detached) due to 
the higher hazard of fueled vehicles. Many jurisdictions amend their codes to 
limit the size of canopies that don't require sprinkler protection, as well.



Travis E. Allen, PE

Principal



Allen Engineering, PLLC

From: David Autry [mailto:da...@mfp-inc.com]
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 7:37 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Canopy

I’ve got a 4 story Hotel with a detached Canopy.
V-A Construction type protected NFPA 13 (2013), R-1 occupancy.
The Canopy is of non-combustible construction and detached from the building. I 
have an Engineer telling me I need to protect this structure. Am I missing 
something?
2006 IBC, Building code.

Thanks,

David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection
2521 West L Street, Suite 5
Lincoln, NE 68522
402.466.2616
402.466.2617 fax
da...@mfp-inc.com
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Canopy

[David Autry]

Technically it’s is a porte-cochere. The AHJ is not requiring protection,
the engineer is.



David Autry



Meininger Fire Protection

2521 West L Street, Suite 5

Lincoln, NE 68522

402.466.2616

402.466.2617 fax

da...@mfp-inc.com



*From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Travis
Allen- Allen Engineering
*Sent:* Friday, March 03, 2017 10:55 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* RE: Canopy



Is it a canopy or porte-cochere where vehicles enter or leave? IBC CANOPY
definition: A structure, enclosure or shelter constructed of fabric or
pliable materials supported by any manner, except by air or the contents it
protects, and is open without sidewalls or drops on 75 percent or more of
the perimeter.



AHJ’s often require porte-cochere's to be sprinklered (even if detached)
due to the higher hazard of fueled vehicles. Many jurisdictions amend their
codes to limit the size of canopies that don't require sprinkler
protection, as well.



Travis E. Allen, PE

Principal



Allen Engineering, PLLC



*From:* David Autry [mailto:da...@mfp-inc.com ]
*Sent:* Friday, March 3, 2017 7:37 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* Canopy



I’ve got a 4 story Hotel with a detached Canopy.

V-A Construction type protected NFPA 13 (2013), R-1 occupancy.

The Canopy is of non-combustible construction and detached from the
building. I have an Engineer telling me I need to protect this structure.
Am I missing something?

2006 IBC, Building code.



Thanks,



David Autry



Meininger Fire Protection

2521 West L Street, Suite 5

Lincoln, NE 68522

402.466.2616

402.466.2617 fax

da...@mfp-inc.com
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Canopy

[Travis Allen- Allen Engineering]

Is it a canopy or porte-cochere where vehicles enter or leave? IBC CANOPY 
definition: A structure, enclosure or shelter constructed of fabric or pliable 
materials supported by any manner, except by air or the contents it protects, 
and is open without sidewalls or drops on 75 percent or more of the perimeter.

 

AHJ’s often require porte-cochere's to be sprinklered (even if detached) due to 
the higher hazard of fueled vehicles. Many jurisdictions amend their codes to 
limit the size of canopies that don't require sprinkler protection, as well.

 

Travis E. Allen, PE

Principal

 

Allen Engineering, PLLC

 

From: David Autry [mailto:da...@mfp-inc.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 7:37 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Canopy

 

I’ve got a 4 story Hotel with a detached Canopy.

V-A Construction type protected NFPA 13 (2013), R-1 occupancy.

The Canopy is of non-combustible construction and detached from the building. I 
have an Engineer telling me I need to protect this structure. Am I missing 
something?

2006 IBC, Building code.

 

Thanks,

 

David Autry

 

Meininger Fire Protection

2521 West L Street, Suite 5

Lincoln, NE 68522

402.466.2616

402.466.2617 fax

da...@mfp-inc.com

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: RE: Canopy

[fpdcdesign]

  
  
Sounds like what you are describing is a detached porte cochere. I believe 
there is something in NFPA or building codes that specifically references this 
by that name. Not in my office so I can't look it up right now.   
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Mar 3, 2017 at 10:47 AM,  mailto:m...@afpsprink.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> 
>   
>
>  “Maybe”?
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  I have come across instances where the code choices made by the architect 
> caused a need for sprinklers in a situation similar to this. Your best bet 
> will be to have the Engineer walk you through the code path that led them to 
> sprinklers. I have been surprised by roundabout exceptions/counter-exceptions 
> more than once. Or maybe they have made an error. If you want them to believe 
> you – you will likely have to do the same exercise.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>
>  Matt 
>
>   
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  David 
> Autry
>   Sent:  Friday, March 03, 2017 9:37 AM
>   To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>   Subject:  Canopy
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  I’ve got a 4 story Hotel with a detached Canopy.
>
>   
>
>  V-A Construction type protected NFPA 13 (2013), R-1 occupancy.
>
>   
>
>  The Canopy is of non-combustible construction and detached from the 
> building. I have an Engineer telling me I need to protect this structure. Am 
> I missing something?
>
>   
>
>  2006 IBC, Building code.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  Thanks,
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>
>  David Autry
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  Meininger Fire Protection
>
>   
>
>  2521 West L Street, Suite 5
>
>   
>
>  Lincoln, NE 68522
>
>   
>
>  402.466.2616
>
>   
>
>  402.466.2617 fax
>
>   
>
>   da...@mfp-inc.com (mailto:da...@mfp-inc.com)
>
>   
>   
>  ___ Sprinkler
>   
  
  
 ___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Canopy

[Matt Grise]

“Maybe”?

I have come across instances where the code choices made by the architect 
caused a need for sprinklers in a situation similar to this. Your best bet will 
be to have the Engineer walk you through the code path that led them to 
sprinklers. I have been surprised by roundabout exceptions/counter-exceptions 
more than once. Or maybe they have made an error. If you want them to believe 
you – you will likely have to do the same exercise.

Matt

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of David Autry
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 9:37 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Canopy

I’ve got a 4 story Hotel with a detached Canopy.
V-A Construction type protected NFPA 13 (2013), R-1 occupancy.
The Canopy is of non-combustible construction and detached from the building. I 
have an Engineer telling me I need to protect this structure. Am I missing 
something?
2006 IBC, Building code.

Thanks,

David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection
2521 West L Street, Suite 5
Lincoln, NE 68522
402.466.2616
402.466.2617 fax
da...@mfp-inc.com
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Canopy

[David Autry]

I’ve got a 4 story Hotel with a detached Canopy.

V-A Construction type protected NFPA 13 (2013), R-1 occupancy.

The Canopy is of non-combustible construction and detached from the
building. I have an Engineer telling me I need to protect this structure.
Am I missing something?

2006 IBC, Building code.



Thanks,



David Autry



Meininger Fire Protection

2521 West L Street, Suite 5

Lincoln, NE 68522

402.466.2616

402.466.2617 fax

da...@mfp-inc.com
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: RE: Single hydrant flow tests.

[fpdcdesign]

  
  
Matt,
  
  
  

  
I always like to witness the flow test whenever I can. I want to make sure they 
are doing it right. We have one company that charges $600 for a test and I end 
up doing it because they have no clue.   
  

  
My point is that I get hydrant information from contractors a lot of times as 
part of the bid package. I wonder if anyone uses info from the water company 
verifies what they do.   
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Mar 3, 2017 at 8:28 AM,  mailto:m...@afpsprink.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> 
>   
>
>  Many of the water companies around here will set a time and allow you to 
> come out and watch – is it close enough that you can supervise?
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>
>  Matt 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  
> fpdcdes...@gmail.com
>   Sent:  Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08 AM
>   To:  Sprinklerforum
>   Subject:  Single hydrant flow tests.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> I recently found a local water company does their flow tests using only 
> single hydrants (flow and pressure on the same hydrant). Fortunately I have 
> not done very much work there. Who verifies the methodology with a water 
> purveyor when they get test results? Obviously not many people in my area as 
> they had to look up how to do a 2 hydrant test before we did the new one.   
>
>   
>   
>   
>  ___ Sprinklerforum mailin
>   
  
  
 ___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Single hydrant flow tests.

[å . . . . . . .]

Single hydrant flow tests is how most of the continent of Australia
conducts their tests.  It works fine with the appropriate, rather simple,
 equipment.

Scot Deal
Excelsior Fire & Risk Engineering
gsm:  +420 608 318 498
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Single hydrant flow tests.

[Matt Grise]

Many of the water companies around here will set a time and allow you to come 
out and watch – is it close enough that you can supervise?

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08 AM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Single hydrant flow tests.

I recently found a local water company does their flow tests using only single 
hydrants (flow and pressure on the same hydrant). Fortunately I have not done 
very much work there. Who verifies the methodology with a water purveyor when 
they get test results? Obviously not many people in my area as they had to look 
up how to do a 2 hydrant test before we did the new one.
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: Single hydrant flow tests.

[Bobby Gillett]

Most of them do it to keep record as they flush and it also acts as a
checks and balance for them. They are not doing it for the same reason we
do. The local water utility here does that, and will share their info.
However, we still coordinate with them when we need a flow test andn they
meet us to assist and witness in the two hydrant test.

Bobby Gillett
*Living Water Fire Protection, LLC*
1160 McKenzie Rd.
Cantonment, FL 32533
(850) 937-1850


On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:08 AM,  wrote:

> I recently found a local water company does their flow tests using only
> single hydrants (flow and pressure on the same hydrant). Fortunately I have
> not done very much work there. Who verifies the methodology with a water
> purveyor when they get test results? Obviously not many people in my area
> as they had to look up how to do a 2 hydrant test before we did the new
> one.
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Single hydrant flow tests.

[fpdcdesign]

 
 
I recently found a local water company does their flow tests using only single 
hydrants (flow and pressure on the same hydrant). Fortunately I have not done 
very much work there. Who verifies the methodology with a water purveyor when 
they get test results? Obviously not many people in my area as they had to look 
up how to do a 2 hydrant test before we did the new one.  
 
 
 
 
 

 
 ___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org