RE: [Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?

[Eva Sager]

I was 29 when I started at Georgia Tech...  married, two kids(1 when I
started and had the other in my first year).  But I also had little
experience in the field and was looking to "start over"...  I had to start
somewhere, so that is how I choose to start.  It was a tremendous amount of
work, and there were many times that I didn't feel like I could possibly
finish, but I did, and I am a better person for it.  I also have a
wonderfully understanding husband who shouldered a lot of the load.  I met
many people  who profoundly effected my career while at school(hey,
networking is networking) and have been told by many potential employers
(paraphrased) "Hey, if you can manage a full time job, school full time, and
a family...  I think you can handle our project."  I was really surprised at
how impressed people were in that fact.  I can't stress enough though... it
was a tremendous amount of work.  At the time it seemed like the best
option, and if I had to do it all over again, I would do it in a heart beat.




-Original Message-
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:25 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: [Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?


What was your age when you went back to school? I am 29 (30 in August). I am
married and have 2 young children (3,6). School seems to be a considerable
financial/time investment. I just want to make sure I am not starting too
late and doing too much for too little a result.

Brandon Goodin


-Original Message-
From: Eva Sager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:55 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


This brings up a good point...  if all you get out of a degree is learning
specific technology...  in a fast changing world you might get left behind.
If you learn how to learn technology...  if you learn another way of
thinking...  then you just might have something.

My degree is in Computer Engineering and the courses that really taught me
something were the courses that taught me how to solve problems, how to
learn new technologies, and how people and technology relate.  The courses
that taught me about technology X didn't mean a thing, because technology X
isn't even around anymore... or has changed so much that what I learned
isn't relevant anymore.

I guess what I am saying is that it might not be a question of "Does a
degree matter?", but "What should I be learning?" and "How can I challenge
myself?".  I don't think that my degree by itself has helped me all that
much...  but the things I learned while getting it were invaluable.

I have worked with many people who become absolutely paralyzed by complex
problems, while getting my degree I learned to deal with these things.  As I
look back, I am not sure how much of it was learned from lecture and books
and how much of it was learned by being thrown into problems and being told
to sink or swim.  In a academic environment, if you sink...  there is
someone there to pull you out and explain to you what you did wrong and how
to deal with it next time.  In a corporate environment you may or may not
have that opportunity...  you may just get fired.

I went to a school with a very challenging curriculum, and I went late in
life, as a full time student with a full time job and a family.  Some of the
most valuable lessons I learned had to do with time management, crisis
management and how to work in an environment where the best you can hope for
is not to fail too miserably due to the resources at hand (or lack there
of).  As I look back...  that has come in quite handy...  probably more so
than I care to admit ;-)




-Original Message-
From: Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side.

-Original Message-
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [

RE: [Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?

[Robert Taylor]

Brandon, I was 29, married, and with a new born when I went back to school
in
1993. I finally graduated in 1999 with a B.A. in CS (Magna Cum Laude).
I worked a full time job, did web development on the side, and took classes
part time. I had to make some sacrifices, but it was worth it in the end.
It opened many windows of opportunity that had be closed.

It appears you have the experience, you just lack the all-important degree
(paper).

Good luck!

robert

-Original Message-
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:25 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: [Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?


What was your age when you went back to school? I am 29 (30 in August). I am
married and have 2 young children (3,6). School seems to be a considerable
financial/time investment. I just want to make sure I am not starting too
late and doing too much for too little a result.

Brandon Goodin


-Original Message-
From: Eva Sager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:55 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


This brings up a good point...  if all you get out of a degree is learning
specific technology...  in a fast changing world you might get left behind.
If you learn how to learn technology...  if you learn another way of
thinking...  then you just might have something.

My degree is in Computer Engineering and the courses that really taught me
something were the courses that taught me how to solve problems, how to
learn new technologies, and how people and technology relate.  The courses
that taught me about technology X didn't mean a thing, because technology X
isn't even around anymore... or has changed so much that what I learned
isn't relevant anymore.

I guess what I am saying is that it might not be a question of "Does a
degree matter?", but "What should I be learning?" and "How can I challenge
myself?".  I don't think that my degree by itself has helped me all that
much...  but the things I learned while getting it were invaluable.

I have worked with many people who become absolutely paralyzed by complex
problems, while getting my degree I learned to deal with these things.  As I
look back, I am not sure how much of it was learned from lecture and books
and how much of it was learned by being thrown into problems and being told
to sink or swim.  In a academic environment, if you sink...  there is
someone there to pull you out and explain to you what you did wrong and how
to deal with it next time.  In a corporate environment you may or may not
have that opportunity...  you may just get fired.

I went to a school with a very challenging curriculum, and I went late in
life, as a full time student with a full time job and a family.  Some of the
most valuable lessons I learned had to do with time management, crisis
management and how to work in an environment where the best you can hope for
is not to fail too miserably due to the resources at hand (or lack there
of).  As I look back...  that has come in quite handy...  probably more so
than I care to admit ;-)




-Original Message-
From: Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side.

-Original Message-
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of
> your time. By
----
>
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is
> that a Comp Sci
> d

[Eva Sager] RE: Does a degree matter?

[Brandon Goodin]

What was your age when you went back to school? I am 29 (30 in August). I am
married and have 2 young children (3,6). School seems to be a considerable
financial/time investment. I just want to make sure I am not starting too
late and doing too much for too little a result.

Brandon Goodin


-Original Message-
From: Eva Sager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:55 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


This brings up a good point...  if all you get out of a degree is learning
specific technology...  in a fast changing world you might get left behind.
If you learn how to learn technology...  if you learn another way of
thinking...  then you just might have something.

My degree is in Computer Engineering and the courses that really taught me
something were the courses that taught me how to solve problems, how to
learn new technologies, and how people and technology relate.  The courses
that taught me about technology X didn't mean a thing, because technology X
isn't even around anymore... or has changed so much that what I learned
isn't relevant anymore.

I guess what I am saying is that it might not be a question of "Does a
degree matter?", but "What should I be learning?" and "How can I challenge
myself?".  I don't think that my degree by itself has helped me all that
much...  but the things I learned while getting it were invaluable.

I have worked with many people who become absolutely paralyzed by complex
problems, while getting my degree I learned to deal with these things.  As I
look back, I am not sure how much of it was learned from lecture and books
and how much of it was learned by being thrown into problems and being told
to sink or swim.  In a academic environment, if you sink...  there is
someone there to pull you out and explain to you what you did wrong and how
to deal with it next time.  In a corporate environment you may or may not
have that opportunity...  you may just get fired.

I went to a school with a very challenging curriculum, and I went late in
life, as a full time student with a full time job and a family.  Some of the
most valuable lessons I learned had to do with time management, crisis
management and how to work in an environment where the best you can hope for
is not to fail too miserably due to the resources at hand (or lack there
of).  As I look back...  that has come in quite handy...  probably more so
than I care to admit ;-)




-Original Message-
From: Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side.

-Original Message-
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of
> your time. By
----
>
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is
> that a Comp Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in
> some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
>
> Why?  A couple of reasons:
>
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
>   particular technologies being taught in their classes, at
> the expense
>   of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
>   technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
>   obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
>   bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my
> viewp

RE: Does a degree matter?

[Eva Sager]

This brings up a good point...  if all you get out of a degree is learning
specific technology...  in a fast changing world you might get left behind.
If you learn how to learn technology...  if you learn another way of
thinking...  then you just might have something.  

My degree is in Computer Engineering and the courses that really taught me
something were the courses that taught me how to solve problems, how to
learn new technologies, and how people and technology relate.  The courses
that taught me about technology X didn't mean a thing, because technology X
isn't even around anymore... or has changed so much that what I learned
isn't relevant anymore.  

I guess what I am saying is that it might not be a question of "Does a
degree matter?", but "What should I be learning?" and "How can I challenge
myself?".  I don't think that my degree by itself has helped me all that
much...  but the things I learned while getting it were invaluable.  

I have worked with many people who become absolutely paralyzed by complex
problems, while getting my degree I learned to deal with these things.  As I
look back, I am not sure how much of it was learned from lecture and books
and how much of it was learned by being thrown into problems and being told
to sink or swim.  In a academic environment, if you sink...  there is
someone there to pull you out and explain to you what you did wrong and how
to deal with it next time.  In a corporate environment you may or may not
have that opportunity...  you may just get fired.  

I went to a school with a very challenging curriculum, and I went late in
life, as a full time student with a full time job and a family.  Some of the
most valuable lessons I learned had to do with time management, crisis
management and how to work in an environment where the best you can hope for
is not to fail too miserably due to the resources at hand (or lack there
of).  As I look back...  that has come in quite handy...  probably more so
than I care to admit ;-)




-Original Message-
From: Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:11 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side. 

-Original Message-
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I 
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of 
> your time. By
----
> 
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have 
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is 
> that a Comp Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in 
> some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
> 
> Why?  A couple of reasons:
> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
>   particular technologies being taught in their classes, at 
> the expense
>   of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
>   technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
>   obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
>   bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my 
> viewpoint)
>   is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
>   new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
>   of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
>   slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
>   for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
>   and so on.

I got my degree over 10 years ago, and technology justs moves t

RE: Does a degree matter?

[Thornton Scott Contractor CADRE/WGTD]

I got my degree in Electrical Engineering. One of my good friends got his
masters degree in Cryptography. There are countless other engineers that got
their degree's in technical fields. I loved EE because it just brought my
brain to a new level of thinking. I am a much better problem solver than I
would have ever been had I not studied EE. It also gave me the confidence
that I could brake apart any problem into sub-problems and then solve each
of those sub-problems. BTW, my boss, who was also a developer before he
became a manager, has a PhD in Mathematics. Therefore, my advice is to study
something technically challenging (and hopefully enjoyable) and learn
software development in your language of choice on the side. 

-Original Message-
From: PILGRIM, Peter, FM [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:23 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I 
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of 
> your time. By
----
> 
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have 
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is 
> that a Comp Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in 
> some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
> 
> Why?  A couple of reasons:
> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
>   particular technologies being taught in their classes, at 
> the expense
>   of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
>   technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
>   obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
>   bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my 
> viewpoint)
>   is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
>   new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
>   of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
>   slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
>   for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
>   and so on.

I got my degree over 10 years ago, and technology justs moves to fast
to keep. THe first year I learned Pascal. Then second year, I learnt
Concurrent Pascal with a classic book, by Isreali fella, maybe you 
might know of it, Ali, Adi. I also learnt Assembly language. In the
forth year I finally learnt Fortran and C, pre-ANSI.

> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on 
> the technical
>   things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
>   would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
>   Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building 
> e-commerce
>   systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
>   principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
>   systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
>   have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
>   building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
>   slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
> 
Definitely. If there a modular course in Investment Banking back in
the 1980's  and being where I am now. Knowing what I know now. 
I would have go for it like a rancid dog!

> It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
> degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
> Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting 
> me apart from
> everyone else who was learning programming and systems 
> analysis in those
> days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users 
> responsible for
> the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without 
> having to be
> trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
> programmer :-).
> 
> If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
> time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
> suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci 
> (with a Comp
> Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  
> The name of
> the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to 
> everyone else out
> there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting thi

RE: Does a degree matter?

[PILGRIM, Peter, FM]

> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I 
> would hazard offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of 
> your time. By
----
> 
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have 
> hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is 
> that a Comp Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in 
> some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
> 
> Why?  A couple of reasons:
> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
>   particular technologies being taught in their classes, at 
> the expense
>   of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
>   technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
>   obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
>   bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my 
> viewpoint)
>   is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
>   new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
>   of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
>   slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
>   for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
>   and so on.

I got my degree over 10 years ago, and technology justs moves to fast
to keep. THe first year I learned Pascal. Then second year, I learnt
Concurrent Pascal with a classic book, by Isreali fella, maybe you 
might know of it, Ali, Adi. I also learnt Assembly language. In the
forth year I finally learnt Fortran and C, pre-ANSI.

> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on 
> the technical
>   things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
>   would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
>   Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building 
> e-commerce
>   systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
>   principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
>   systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
>   have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
>   building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
>   slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
> 
Definitely. If there a modular course in Investment Banking back in
the 1980's  and being where I am now. Knowing what I know now. 
I would have go for it like a rancid dog!

> It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
> degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
> Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting 
> me apart from
> everyone else who was learning programming and systems 
> analysis in those
> days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users 
> responsible for
> the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without 
> having to be
> trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
> programmer :-).
> 
> If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
> time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
> suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci 
> (with a Comp
> Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  
> The name of
> the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to 
> everyone else out
> there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
> world than just computers and web apps :-).
> 
> Craig
> 

If you are die hard techie, then you should get "first honours" or
"second class honours" from a Computer Science degree, at
British University at least. But I would recommend, strongly,
that you also look at a ``Combined Degree'' such as computing and
international economic, computing and biotechnology (hot!),
computing and engineering, or physical sciences.

Also I would seriously look at humanities, arts related degrees
for good combination. If you are interested in digital arts, 
photography, graphic, design and web, you might something 
computing related.

Dont do what a lot of people did/do. Bog standard boring. 
Mathematics and Computer Science unless, of course, you instead to be
Professor at Oxbridge.

Mix it up
--
Peter Pilgrim,
Struts/J2EE Consultant, RBoS FM, Risk IT
Tel: +44 (0)207-375-4923



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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Alexandre Jaquet]

a read actuall a nice book called Underworld Survival Guide he got's

some nice tip :



FREE EDUCATION



  Usually when you ask somebody in college why they are there, they'll
tell you it's to get an education. The truth of it is, they are there to get
the degree so that they can get ahead in the rat race. Too many college
radicals are two-timing punks. The only reason you should be in college is
to destroy it. If there is stuff that you want to learn though, there is a
way to get a college education absolutely free. Simply send away for the
schedule of courses at the college of your choice. Make up the schedule you
want and audit the classes. In smaller classes this might be a problem, but
even then, if, the teacher is worth anything at all, he'll let you stay. In
large classes, no one will ever object.If you need books for a course, write
to the publisher claiming you are a lecturer at some school and considering
using their book in your course. They will always send you free books.There
are Free Universities springing up all over our new Nation. Anybody can
teach any course. People sign up for the courses and sometimes pay a token
registration fee. This money is used to publish a catalogue and pay the
rent. If you're on welfare you don't have to pay. You can take as many or as
few courses as you want. Classes are held everywhere: in the instructor's
house, in the park, on the beach, at one of the student's houses or in
liberated buildings. Free Universities offer courses ranging from Astrology
to the Use of Firearms. The teaching is usually of excellent quality and
you'll learn in a community-type atmosphere.



LIST OF FREE UNIVERSITIES

  ¥ Alternative University-69 W. 14th St., New York, NY 10011 (catalogue
on request)

  ¥ Baltimore Free U-c/o Harry, 233 E. 25th St., Baltimore, Maryland
21218

  ¥ Berkeley Free U-1703 Grove St., Berkeley, California 94709

  ¥ Bowling Green Free U-c/o Student Council, University of Bowling
Green, Bowling Green  Ohio 43402

  ¥ Colorado State Free U-Box 12-Fraisen, Colorado State College,
Greeley, Colorado 80631   ¥ Detroit Area Free U-Student Union, 4001 W.
McNichols Rd., Detroit, Michigan 48221

  ¥ Detroit Area Free U-343 University Center, Wayne State University,
Detroit, Mich.

  ¥ Georgetown Free U-Loyola Bldg., 28, Georgetown University Washington
D.C. 20007

  ¥ Golden Gate Free U-2120 Market St., Rm. 206, San Francisco,
California 94114

  ¥ Heliotrope-2201 Filbert, San Francisco, California 94118

  ¥ Illinois Free U-298A Illini Union, University of Illinois,
Champaign, Illinois 61820

  ¥ Kansas Free U-107 W. 7th St., Lawrence, Kansas 66044

  ¥ Knox College Free U-Galesbury, Illinois 60401

  ¥ Madison Free U-c/o P. Carroll, 1205 Shorewood Blvd., Madison,
Wisconsin 53705

  ¥ Metropolitan State Free U-Associated Students, 1345 Banrock St.,
Denver, Colorado 80204   ¥ Michigan State Free U-Associated Students,
Student Service Bldg., Michigan State College, East Lansing,
Michigan 48823

  ¥ Mid-Peninsula Free U-1060 El Camino Real, Menlo Park, California
94015

  ¥ Minnesota Free U-1817 S. 3rd St., Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404

  ¥ Monterey Peninsula Free U-2120 Etna Place, Monterey, California

New Free U-Box ALL 303, Santa Barbara, California 93107

  ¥ Northwest Free U-Box 1255, Bellingham, Washington 98225

  ¥ Ohio-Wesleyan Free U-Box 47-Welsh Hall, Ohio Wesleyan University,
Delevan, Ohio 43015   ¥ Pittsburgh Free U-4401 Fifth Ave., Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania 15213Rutgers Free U-Rutgers   College, Student Center, 1
Lincoln Ave., Newark, NJ 07102

  ¥ St. Louis Free U-c/o Student Congress, 3rd floor BMC, St. Louis
University, St. Louis,Missouri 63103

  ¥ San Luis Obispo Free U-Box 1305, San Luis Obispo, California 94301

  ¥ Santa Cruz Free U-604 River St., Santa Cruz, California 95060

  ¥ Seattle Free U-4144¸ University Way NE, Seattle, Washington 98105 ¥
Southern Illinois Free U-Carbondale, Illinois 62901

  ¥ Valley Free U-2045 N. Wishon Ave., Fresno, California 93704

  ¥ Washington Area Free U-5519 Prospect Place, Chevy Chase, Maryland
20015 and 1854 Park Rd. NW, Washington, D.C. 20010

  ¥ Wayne-Locke Free U-Student Congress, University of Texas, Arlington,
Texas 76010

  And a complete list of experimental schools, free universities, free
schools, can be obtained by sending one dollar to ALTERNATIVES! 1526
Gravenstein Highway N., Sebastopol, California 97452, and requesting the
Directory of Free Schools.


- Original Message -
From: "Tim Shadel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?


> Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> >   Any specific
> >   technology you lear

Re: Does a degree matter?

[Simon Kelly]

Oo oo ... I have a good one we had to do last year.

Write the vhdl code (hardware designed in software) to impliment the whole
of the original IBM RS232 comunications protocol (The name of which slips my
feeble mind at the oment).  That was a hum-dinger of a project, and noone
got the whole thing done, although what I got going in the end did work.

Oh, my eyes are misting up at the thought.


- Original Message -
From: "Alexandre Jaquet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?


> that's exactly the same behaviour in switzerland if you do university
> (only theory and only a few pratic)
>
> the degree I do is a special one with less theory and more pratic (
> the second year we have to do 5 projects :
>
> -1 to integrate oriented object programming
>   I had choose accessing accross network computer ressource.
>   (I used Eiffel)
>
> -1 to integrate database programming
>   I had choose to implement a framework for security management,
>   for any database driven application.
>   (I used Kylix and Postresql)
>
> -1 for mathematical use (vectorial,matricial math for 2d programming)
>  (java and my own math lib)
>
> -1 for learning working in group
> (I only have done data modeling)
>
> -1 for diploma
>  (I choose an information system to manage a
> school,student,prof,activity etc..)
>  (java /struts/swing)
>
> I hate theory I like pratic ;)
>
> --
> Alexandre Jaquet
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Daniel H. F. e Silva" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >   Just my two cents.
> >
> >   Craig's viewpoint is good for american-like degrees. But there are
many
> different
> > education systems all over the world.
> >   For example, in my country (Brazil), Comp Sci bachelor's degree from
> public universities don't
> > teach nothing more than old theory. We study Automata theory, Graph
> theory, Calculus, Algebra,
> > Physics, Statistics and Algorithms as course basis and we have
specialized
> disciplines where we
> > study more specific theory like: DataBases theory, Operating Systems
> theory, Programming Language
> > theory, Compilers theory, Data transmission, Computer Networks, Computer
> Networks Management,
> > Artificial Intelligence, Functional programming, Logic programming,
> Object-Oriented programming,
> > Object-Oriented analysis, Project management, etc.
> >   And at my university (University of Brasilia) we have to take some
> optional (not so much)
> > courses to get our degree. They are: Management, Accounting, Economics,
> Sports, Political science,
> > Philosophy, English, Operational research, Law science etc.
> >   Our professors don't teach programming languages like Java, C, Pascal,
> Lisp, Prolog, FORTRAN.
> > They delegate this task to students.
> >   I think it is a hard course but it's worth it.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >   Daniel.
> >
> > --- apachep2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Sorry, I am not intended to offend any one subscribed to this list. I
> > > just can't be more agreed with Craig's view. BTW, I was actually
> > > forwarding this email to my boss but accidentally click the Reply.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > > Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > > This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than
others.
> > > No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > > > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > >
> &

Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Simon Kelly]

Exception handling!?!
Object Orientation!!!???
Talking to another bloody language!!!

They killed FORTRAN! . You b*ds!!!  ((c) South Park)

LOL




- Original Message -
From: "Alexandre Jaquet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> looks good :
>
> "Fortran 2000 is an upwardly-compatible extension of the current Fortran
> standard, Fortran 95, adding, among other things, support for exception
> handling, object-oriented programming, and improved interoperability with
> the C language. "
>
> Why not implement a framework like struts for fortran 2000 ?
> Ok I shut up...
>
> lool
> --
> Alexandre Jaquet
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Simon Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> > Please!!  No bad language on this site!!  ;-)
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Alexandre Jaquet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> >
> >
> > > lol what's about fortran 2000 ;)))
> > > http://www.j3-fortran.org/
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alexandre Jaquet
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Jeff Kyser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:38 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Never laugh! I just finished a project integrating a legacy app
> > > > written in FORTRAN into the back end of a Struts-fronted webapp.
> > > > Maybe those FORTRAN guys are smarter than we think - we've
> > > > all beaten our heads against the wall learning 6 different languages
> > > > and porting all our stuff, and they are still using libraries they
> wrote
> > > > 20 years ago.
> > > >
> > > > LOL,
> > > >
> > > > -jeff
> > > >
> > > > On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 08:31  AM, Simon Kelly wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Write your own cheques if you know FORTRAN!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Original Message -
> > > > > From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:22 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far
as
> > > > >> most
> > > > >> employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better
have
> > > > >> moved
> > > > > to
> > > > >> some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to
be
> > > > >> your
> > > > > last
> > > > >> gig...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> (Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -Original Message-
> > > > >> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >> Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
> > > > >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
> > > > >> who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40
> and
> > > > >> another one
> > > > >> 28) but they still didn't catch any job.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I finish my degree this year and I already have receive
proposition
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> three compagnies.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies

Re: Does a degree matter?

[Tim Shadel]

Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?
I dunno.  I took a senior level course in Sept of 2000 that taught 
Struts version 0.5.  It's helped me get this job, and radically change 
the tecnology of my last job! :-)

Tim



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Does a degree matter?

[Rabih Yazbeck]

Well, Craig is almost right for American companies and American education... I have 
worked in four continents and studied also in four continents.. each place require 
different skills and have different view about education... 

The only thing I found in common is the 'scientific logic' and the 'passion' for 
computer science.. Computer Science degree is very important outside the US.. you do 
just like me.. I have studied civil engineering, so they assure for them that I have 
the 'scientific logic', but no computer science background.. so I went and I had 
master degree in computer science.. in England.. and that's it.. they can't complain 
anymore.. it will work anywhere on this planet.. but be sure that degree matters to 
start your career.. 

- Rabih

> -Original Message-
> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 31 March 2003 17:04
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> 
> that's exactly the same behaviour in switzerland if you do university
> (only theory and only a few pratic)
> 
> the degree I do is a special one with less theory and more pratic (
> the second year we have to do 5 projects :
> 
> -1 to integrate oriented object programming
>   I had choose accessing accross network computer ressource.
>   (I used Eiffel)
> 
> -1 to integrate database programming
>   I had choose to implement a framework for security management,
>   for any database driven application.
>   (I used Kylix and Postresql)
> 
> -1 for mathematical use (vectorial,matricial math for 2d programming)
>  (java and my own math lib)
> 
> -1 for learning working in group
> (I only have done data modeling)
> 
> -1 for diploma
>  (I choose an information system to manage a
> school,student,prof,activity etc..)
>  (java /struts/swing)
> 
> I hate theory I like pratic ;)
> 
> --
> Alexandre Jaquet
> 
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel H. F. e Silva" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >   Just my two cents.
> >
> >   Craig's viewpoint is good for american-like degrees. But there are
> many
> different
> > education systems all over the world.
> >   For example, in my country (Brazil), Comp Sci bachelor's degree from
> public universities don't
> > teach nothing more than old theory. We study Automata theory, Graph
> theory, Calculus, Algebra,
> > Physics, Statistics and Algorithms as course basis and we have
> specialized
> disciplines where we
> > study more specific theory like: DataBases theory, Operating Systems
> theory, Programming Language
> > theory, Compilers theory, Data transmission, Computer Networks, Computer
> Networks Management,
> > Artificial Intelligence, Functional programming, Logic programming,
> Object-Oriented programming,
> > Object-Oriented analysis, Project management, etc.
> >   And at my university (University of Brasilia) we have to take some
> optional (not so much)
> > courses to get our degree. They are: Management, Accounting, Economics,
> Sports, Political science,
> > Philosophy, English, Operational research, Law science etc.
> >   Our professors don't teach programming languages like Java, C, Pascal,
> Lisp, Prolog, FORTRAN.
> > They delegate this task to students.
> >   I think it is a hard course but it's worth it.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >   Daniel.
> >
> > --- apachep2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Sorry, I am not intended to offend any one subscribed to this list. I
> > > just can't be more agreed with Craig's view. BTW, I was actually
> > > forwarding this email to my boss but accidentally click the Reply.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > > Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > > This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than
> others.
> > > No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2

Re: Does a degree matter?

[Alexandre Jaquet]

that's exactly the same behaviour in switzerland if you do university
(only theory and only a few pratic)

the degree I do is a special one with less theory and more pratic (
the second year we have to do 5 projects :

-1 to integrate oriented object programming
  I had choose accessing accross network computer ressource.
  (I used Eiffel)

-1 to integrate database programming
  I had choose to implement a framework for security management,
  for any database driven application.
  (I used Kylix and Postresql)

-1 for mathematical use (vectorial,matricial math for 2d programming)
 (java and my own math lib)

-1 for learning working in group
(I only have done data modeling)

-1 for diploma
 (I choose an information system to manage a
school,student,prof,activity etc..)
 (java /struts/swing)

I hate theory I like pratic ;)

--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: "Daniel H. F. e Silva" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?


> Hi all,
>   Just my two cents.
>
>   Craig's viewpoint is good for american-like degrees. But there are many
different
> education systems all over the world.
>   For example, in my country (Brazil), Comp Sci bachelor's degree from
public universities don't
> teach nothing more than old theory. We study Automata theory, Graph
theory, Calculus, Algebra,
> Physics, Statistics and Algorithms as course basis and we have specialized
disciplines where we
> study more specific theory like: DataBases theory, Operating Systems
theory, Programming Language
> theory, Compilers theory, Data transmission, Computer Networks, Computer
Networks Management,
> Artificial Intelligence, Functional programming, Logic programming,
Object-Oriented programming,
> Object-Oriented analysis, Project management, etc.
>   And at my university (University of Brasilia) we have to take some
optional (not so much)
> courses to get our degree. They are: Management, Accounting, Economics,
Sports, Political science,
> Philosophy, English, Operational research, Law science etc.
>   Our professors don't teach programming languages like Java, C, Pascal,
Lisp, Prolog, FORTRAN.
> They delegate this task to students.
>   I think it is a hard course but it's worth it.
>
> Best regards,
>   Daniel.
>
> --- apachep2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sorry, I am not intended to offend any one subscribed to this list. I
> > just can't be more agreed with Craig's view. BTW, I was actually
> > forwarding this email to my boss but accidentally click the Reply.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> >
> > This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than others.
> > No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
> > projects.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > > Brandon,
> > >
> > > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
> > offering
> > > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time.
> > By
> > > education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job
> > was web
> > > design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
> > take me
> > > on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
> > >
> >
> > My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
> > the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp
> > Sci
> > degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
> > that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> > employers.
> >
> > Why?  A couple of reasons:
> >
> > * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
> >   particular technologies being taught in their cla

RE: Does a degree matter?

[Daniel H. F. e Silva]

Hi all,
  Just my two cents.

  Craig's viewpoint is good for american-like degrees. But there are many different
education systems all over the world.
  For example, in my country (Brazil), Comp Sci bachelor's degree from public 
universities don't
teach nothing more than old theory. We study Automata theory, Graph theory, Calculus, 
Algebra, 
Physics, Statistics and Algorithms as course basis and we have specialized disciplines 
where we
study more specific theory like: DataBases theory, Operating Systems theory, 
Programming Language
theory, Compilers theory, Data transmission, Computer Networks, Computer Networks 
Management,
Artificial Intelligence, Functional programming, Logic programming, Object-Oriented 
programming,
Object-Oriented analysis, Project management, etc.
  And at my university (University of Brasilia) we have to take some optional (not so 
much)
courses to get our degree. They are: Management, Accounting, Economics, Sports, 
Political science,
Philosophy, English, Operational research, Law science etc.
  Our professors don't teach programming languages like Java, C, Pascal, Lisp, Prolog, 
FORTRAN.
They delegate this task to students.
  I think it is a hard course but it's worth it. 

Best regards,
  Daniel.

--- apachep2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry, I am not intended to offend any one subscribed to this list. I
> just can't be more agreed with Craig's view. BTW, I was actually
> forwarding this email to my boss but accidentally click the Reply.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?
> 
> This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than others.
> No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
> projects.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> > From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
> >
> > Brandon,
> >
> > If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
> offering
> > my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time.
> By
> > education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job
> was web
> > design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
> take me
> > on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
> >
> 
> My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
> the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp
> Sci
> degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
> that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
> employers.
> 
> Why?  A couple of reasons:
> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
>   particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
>   of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
>   technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
>   obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
>   bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
>   is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
>   new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
>   of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
>   slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
>   for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
>   and so on.
> 
> * Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
>   things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
>   would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
>   Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
>   systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
>   principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
>   systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
>   have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
>   building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
>   slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
> 
> It may surprise some of 

RE: Does a degree matter?

[Brandon Goodin]

Puneet,

Hopefully I did no offend you by my statement. It was meant in jest. For
your information. I too work 12-15 hours a day for what winds of being VERY
LITTLE!

Brandon Goodin

-Original Message-
From: Puneet Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:56 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Cc: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?



Brandon,
But we Indians have to work like a dog ... for getting handful of
Rupees...!!!
tough to take out anytime for reading...after a work of 12-15 hours a day.

Regards,
Puneet Agarwal
Ext: 1031

Struts ... Action ... Struts in Action ... Action in Struts ... Action
"with" Struts ...



"Brandon
Goodin"  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:
        s>       Subject: RE: Does a degree
matter?

03/30/03
02:29 AM
Please
respond to
"Struts Users
Mailing List"






Maybe I'll go become a citizen of India... They seem to be getting a lot of
IT work. Heck $20/hour over there is like $80/hour here :-))

Brandon Goodin


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?



Hello Brandon,

Generally degrees, diplomas, accreditation, courses and the like can only
help you in any career.  But the IT career is unusual because of pace at
which things change in the IT industry.  Cheaper computers, cheaper
software
and cheaper programmers make it tough to see where you will be in a couple
of years.  Downturns in the economy and outsourcing/nearsourcing IT work to
far away lands only make it worse.

There's a lot of soul searching going on now within the IT industry.  It's
tough going from being able to get work anywhere for lots of money to
having
a tough time getting a job for much less money.

I think that if you are considering going to school for a degree, you
should
make sure that computers is the career you want.  This may be a rare
opportunity for you to consider another kind of career.

Auto mechanics now earn about the same as programmers and they can open the
windows while the work!

Good luck!

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:09 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Does a degree matter?


Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking
wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a
BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly.
2
years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my
realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all
think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his
career
a boost.

Brandon Goodin


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RE: Does a degree matter?

[apachep2]

It happens again, when I reply, I always receive the 2nd copy. This is
the 2nd copy.

-Original Message-
From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?

This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than others.
No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
projects.

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?



On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
>
> Brandon,
>
> If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
offering
> my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time.
By
> education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job
was web
> design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
take me
> on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
>

My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp
Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.

Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart
from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible
for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to
be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).

If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).

Craig


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RE: Does a degree matter?

[apachep2]

Sorry, I am not intended to offend any one subscribed to this list. I
just can't be more agreed with Craig's view. BTW, I was actually
forwarding this email to my boss but accidentally click the Reply.

-Original Message-
From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 31, 2003 9:57 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?

This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than others.
No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
projects.

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?



On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
>
> Brandon,
>
> If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
offering
> my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time.
By
> education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job
was web
> design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
take me
> on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
>

My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp
Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.

Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart
from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible
for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to
be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).

If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).

Craig


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RE: Does a degree matter?

[apachep2]

This guy always has a different but brighter/cleverer view than others.
No wonder why he is leading the development of many open source
projects.

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?



On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
>
> Brandon,
>
> If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
offering
> my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time.
By
> education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job
was web
> design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
take me
> on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
>

My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp
Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.

Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart
from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible
for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to
be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).

If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).

Craig


-
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Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Alexandre Jaquet]

looks good :

"Fortran 2000 is an upwardly-compatible extension of the current Fortran
standard, Fortran 95, adding, among other things, support for exception
handling, object-oriented programming, and improved interoperability with
the C language. "

Why not implement a framework like struts for fortran 2000 ?
Ok I shut up...

lool
--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: "Simon Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> Please!!  No bad language on this site!!  ;-)
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Alexandre Jaquet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> > lol what's about fortran 2000 ;)))
> > http://www.j3-fortran.org/
> >
> > --
> > Alexandre Jaquet
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Jeff Kyser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> >
> >
> > > Never laugh! I just finished a project integrating a legacy app
> > > written in FORTRAN into the back end of a Struts-fronted webapp.
> > > Maybe those FORTRAN guys are smarter than we think - we've
> > > all beaten our heads against the wall learning 6 different languages
> > > and porting all our stuff, and they are still using libraries they
wrote
> > > 20 years ago.
> > >
> > > LOL,
> > >
> > > -jeff
> > >
> > > On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 08:31  AM, Simon Kelly wrote:
> > >
> > > > Write your own cheques if you know FORTRAN!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:22 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far as
> > > >> most
> > > >> employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better have
> > > >> moved
> > > > to
> > > >> some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to be
> > > >> your
> > > > last
> > > >> gig...
> > > >>
> > > >> (Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)
> > > >>
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >> Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
> > > >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
> > > >> who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40
and
> > > >> another one
> > > >> 28) but they still didn't catch any job.
> > > >>
> > > >> I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition
> > > >> from
> > > >> three compagnies.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to
> > > >> employ
> > > >> them
> > > >> as junior developper.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Alexandre Jaquet
> > > >>
> > > >> - Original Message -
> > > >> From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older
than
> > > >>> you
> > > >>> Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I
> > > >>> came
> &

Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Simon Kelly]

Please!!  No bad language on this site!!  ;-)


- Original Message -
From: "Alexandre Jaquet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> lol what's about fortran 2000 ;)))
> http://www.j3-fortran.org/
>
> --
> Alexandre Jaquet
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeff Kyser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> > Never laugh! I just finished a project integrating a legacy app
> > written in FORTRAN into the back end of a Struts-fronted webapp.
> > Maybe those FORTRAN guys are smarter than we think - we've
> > all beaten our heads against the wall learning 6 different languages
> > and porting all our stuff, and they are still using libraries they wrote
> > 20 years ago.
> >
> > LOL,
> >
> > -jeff
> >
> > On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 08:31  AM, Simon Kelly wrote:
> >
> > > Write your own cheques if you know FORTRAN!!
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -
> > > From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:22 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >
> > >
> > >> Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far as
> > >> most
> > >> employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better have
> > >> moved
> > > to
> > >> some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to be
> > >> your
> > > last
> > >> gig...
> > >>
> > >> (Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
> > >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
> > >> who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40 and
> > >> another one
> > >> 28) but they still didn't catch any job.
> > >>
> > >> I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition
> > >> from
> > >> three compagnies.
> > >>
> > >> I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to
> > >> employ
> > >> them
> > >> as junior developper.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Alexandre Jaquet
> > >>
> > >> - Original Message -
> > >> From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than
> > >>> you
> > >>> Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I
> > >>> came
> > >>> from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil
> > >>> Engineering). I
> > >>> get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often
than
> > > not
> > >>> I feel very much behind the 8-ball.
> > >>>
> > >>> Susan Bradeen
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > >>>>> Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too
> > > much
> > >>>>> too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather
> > > late
> > >>>>> in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> > >>>>> concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on
> > >>>>> the
> &g

Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Alexandre Jaquet]

lol what's about fortran 2000 ;)))
http://www.j3-fortran.org/

--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: "Jeff Kyser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> Never laugh! I just finished a project integrating a legacy app
> written in FORTRAN into the back end of a Struts-fronted webapp.
> Maybe those FORTRAN guys are smarter than we think - we've
> all beaten our heads against the wall learning 6 different languages
> and porting all our stuff, and they are still using libraries they wrote
> 20 years ago.
>
> LOL,
>
> -jeff
>
> On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 08:31  AM, Simon Kelly wrote:
>
> > Write your own cheques if you know FORTRAN!!
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:22 PM
> > Subject: RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> >
> >
> >> Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far as
> >> most
> >> employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better have
> >> moved
> > to
> >> some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to be
> >> your
> > last
> >> gig...
> >>
> >> (Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
> >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> >>
> >>
> >> You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
> >> who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40 and
> >> another one
> >> 28) but they still didn't catch any job.
> >>
> >> I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition
> >> from
> >> three compagnies.
> >>
> >> I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to
> >> employ
> >> them
> >> as junior developper.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Alexandre Jaquet
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than
> >>> you
> >>> Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I
> >>> came
> >>> from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil
> >>> Engineering). I
> >>> get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often than
> > not
> >>> I feel very much behind the 8-ball.
> >>>
> >>> Susan Bradeen
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> >>>>> Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too
> > much
> >>>>> too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather
> > late
> >>>>> in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> >>>>> concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather
> >>> late
> >>>>> in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What
> >>> should
> >>>>> I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time
> > learning
> >>>>> one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing
> >>> about
> >>>>> some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets
> >>> and,
> >>>>> sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
> >>

Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Jeff Kyser]

Never laugh! I just finished a project integrating a legacy app
written in FORTRAN into the back end of a Struts-fronted webapp.
Maybe those FORTRAN guys are smarter than we think - we've
all beaten our heads against the wall learning 6 different languages
and porting all our stuff, and they are still using libraries they wrote
20 years ago.
LOL,

-jeff

On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 08:31  AM, Simon Kelly wrote:

Write your own cheques if you know FORTRAN!!

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:22 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far as  
most
employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better have  
moved
to
some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to be  
your
last
gig...

(Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)

-Original Message-
From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40 and
another one
28) but they still didn't catch any job.
I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition  
from
three compagnies.

I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to  
employ
them
as junior developper.

--
Alexandre Jaquet
- Original Message -
From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than  
you
Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I  
came
from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil  
Engineering). I
get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often than
not
I feel very much behind the 8-ball.

Susan Bradeen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:

On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too
much
too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather
late
in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on  
the
table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that  
are
valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather
late
in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What
should
I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time
learning
one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing
about
some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets
and,
sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can
honestly
say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22
of
if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but
not
really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's
best
to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs  
trying
to
learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all
it's
just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me.
Wish
I
could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk
town
where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to  
provide
enough rain for the crops.
Rick,

I often feel the way you do.  I didn't get into programming until I
was
24.  (28 now..). Although I don't have children of my own, I also
greatly value my time with my nephew, family and friends, and won't
give
that up to cram more knowledge into my head.  It's also important to
me
to spend time exercising and pursuing non-computer hobbies.

I've accepted that I can't compete with the 16-year old hacker who
lives
for his/her computer.  Heck, my little (23-yo) brother has started
being
the one I ask about many things, not the other way around.  ;)

You've got to keep your strengths in mind in order to stay positive.
What were you doing those years before you started working with
computers?  I studied Biochemistry and worked a diverse range of  
jobs.
What are your interests outside of computers?  If you end up doing
consulting, relating to clients is very important.

A close friend of mine a year older than you works as a specialized
O/S
customer support professional.  She started programming, etc. when  
she
was 29.  She took a position that allows her to use her technica

Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Simon Kelly]

Write your own cheques if you know FORTRAN!!


- Original Message -
From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:22 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far as most
> employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better have moved
to
> some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to be your
last
> gig...
>
> (Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
> who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40 and
> another one
> 28) but they still didn't catch any job.
>
> I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition from
> three compagnies.
>
> I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to employ
> them
> as junior developper.
>
> --
> Alexandre Jaquet
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> > Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than you
> > Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I came
> > from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil Engineering). I
> > get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often than
not
> > I feel very much behind the 8-ball.
> >
> > Susan Bradeen
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > > > Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too
much
> > > > too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather
late
> > > > in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> > > > concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
> > > > table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
> > > > valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather
> > late
> > > > in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What
> > should
> > > > I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time
learning
> > > > one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing
> > about
> > > > some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets
> > and,
> > > > sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
> > > > listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can
> > honestly
> > > > say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22
of
> > > > if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but
> > not
> > > > really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's
best
> > > > to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying
> > to
> > > > learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all
it's
> > > > just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me.
Wish
> > I
> > > > could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk
> > town
> > > > where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
> > > > enough rain for the crops.
> > >
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > I often feel the way you do.  I didn't get into programming until I
was
> > > 24.  (28 now..). Although I don't have children of my own, I also
> > > greatly value my time with my nephew, family and friends, and won't
give
> > > that up to cram more knowledge into my head.  It's also important to
me
> > > to spend time exercising and pursuing non-computer hobbies.
> > >
> > > I've accepted that I can't compete with the 16-year old hacker who
lives
> > > for his/her computer.  Heck, my little (23-yo) brother has started
being
> > > the one I ask about many things, not th

RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

Yep. Once over 30 in IT your far too old to start already as far as most
employers are concerned. I gather that once over 35 you better have moved to
some kind of managerial position already if you dont want it to be your last
gig...

(Disregard above if you know COBOL) ;-)

-Original Message-
From: Alexandre Jaquet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 22:14
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40 and
another one
28) but they still didn't catch any job.

I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition from
three compagnies.

I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to employ
them
as junior developper.

--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than you
> Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I came
> from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil Engineering). I
> get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often than not
> I feel very much behind the 8-ball.
>
> Susan Bradeen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > > Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too much
> > > too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather late
> > > in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> > > concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
> > > table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
> > > valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather
> late
> > > in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What
> should
> > > I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time learning
> > > one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing
> about
> > > some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets
> and,
> > > sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
> > > listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can
> honestly
> > > say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22 of
> > > if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but
> not
> > > really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's best
> > > to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying
> to
> > > learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all it's
> > > just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me. Wish
> I
> > > could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk
> town
> > > where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
> > > enough rain for the crops.
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> > I often feel the way you do.  I didn't get into programming until I was
> > 24.  (28 now..). Although I don't have children of my own, I also
> > greatly value my time with my nephew, family and friends, and won't give
> > that up to cram more knowledge into my head.  It's also important to me
> > to spend time exercising and pursuing non-computer hobbies.
> >
> > I've accepted that I can't compete with the 16-year old hacker who lives
> > for his/her computer.  Heck, my little (23-yo) brother has started being
> > the one I ask about many things, not the other way around.  ;)
> >
> > You've got to keep your strengths in mind in order to stay positive.
> > What were you doing those years before you started working with
> > computers?  I studied Biochemistry and worked a diverse range of jobs.
> > What are your interests outside of computers?  If you end up doing
> > consulting, relating to clients is very important.
> >
> > A close friend of mine a year older than you works as a specialized O/S
> > customer support professional.  She started programming, etc. when she
> > was 29.  She took a position that allows her to use her technical degree
> > yet emphasizes her "people" skills.  Consistently, she r

RE: Does a degree matter?

[Puneet Agarwal]

Working in TCS is a certainly a great experience...[even after 5 Years]
especially as regards to Name, Work and Facilities.
I talking abt general conditions in India.

Puneet Agarwal
Ext: 1031

Struts ... Action ... Struts in Action ... Action in Struts ... Action
"with" Struts ...


   
 
Amitkumar_J_Malhot 
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Struts Users Mailing 
List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
  cc:  
 
03/31/03 05:57 PM     Subject:     RE: Does a degree matter?   
 
Please respond to  
 
"Struts Users  
 
Mailing List"  
 
   
 
   
 





come on puneet ,
if people from tcs start complainng about salaries in india , then
every one else ( in india)  should be sulking :-)))
or are we riding in the same boat :-))

regards,
amit malhotra



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Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Alexandre Jaquet]

You had start when the market was pretty good. I've some friend
who have finish their degree last year -september-(one 29, one 40 and
another one
28) but they still didn't catch any job.

I finish my degree this year and I already have receive proposition from
three compagnies.

I think they are *to old* for most of the compagnies rigth now to employ
them
as junior developper.

--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: "Susan Bradeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


> Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than you
> Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I came
> from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil Engineering). I
> get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often than not
> I feel very much behind the 8-ball.
>
> Susan Bradeen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > > Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too much
> > > too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather late
> > > in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> > > concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
> > > table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
> > > valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather
> late
> > > in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What
> should
> > > I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time learning
> > > one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing
> about
> > > some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets
> and,
> > > sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
> > > listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can
> honestly
> > > say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22 of
> > > if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but
> not
> > > really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's best
> > > to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying
> to
> > > learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all it's
> > > just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me. Wish
> I
> > > could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk
> town
> > > where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
> > > enough rain for the crops.
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> > I often feel the way you do.  I didn't get into programming until I was
> > 24.  (28 now..). Although I don't have children of my own, I also
> > greatly value my time with my nephew, family and friends, and won't give
> > that up to cram more knowledge into my head.  It's also important to me
> > to spend time exercising and pursuing non-computer hobbies.
> >
> > I've accepted that I can't compete with the 16-year old hacker who lives
> > for his/her computer.  Heck, my little (23-yo) brother has started being
> > the one I ask about many things, not the other way around.  ;)
> >
> > You've got to keep your strengths in mind in order to stay positive.
> > What were you doing those years before you started working with
> > computers?  I studied Biochemistry and worked a diverse range of jobs.
> > What are your interests outside of computers?  If you end up doing
> > consulting, relating to clients is very important.
> >
> > A close friend of mine a year older than you works as a specialized O/S
> > customer support professional.  She started programming, etc. when she
> > was 29.  She took a position that allows her to use her technical degree
> > yet emphasizes her "people" skills.  Consistently, she receives very
> > positive feedback from Fortune 500 companies, feedback that some of her
> > more "techie" coworkers do not, because they don't share her ability to
> > talk to individuals less technically savvy than themselves.
> >
> > I guess all I'm saying is that you're not alone, and don't get
> > discouraged.  I can speak only for myself, but I have a lot of those
> > moments.  =)
> >
> > --

Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Susan Bradeen]

Yep, Becky is right ... you are not alone. I am two years older than you 
Rick, and I just got into software development 4 1/2 years ago. I came 
from a mechanical design background (with a BS in Civil Engineering). I 
get great support from my fellow developers here, but more often than not 
I feel very much behind the 8-ball. 

Susan Bradeen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On 03/31/2003 08:03:22 AM Becky Norum wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> > Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too much
> > too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather late
> > in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> > concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
> > table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
> > valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather 
late
> > in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What 
should
> > I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time learning
> > one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing 
about
> > some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets 
and,
> > sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
> > listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can 
honestly
> > say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22 of
> > if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but 
not
> > really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's best
> > to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying 
to
> > learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all it's
> > just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me. Wish 
I
> > could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk 
town
> > where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
> > enough rain for the crops.
> 
> Rick,
> 
> I often feel the way you do.  I didn't get into programming until I was
> 24.  (28 now..). Although I don't have children of my own, I also
> greatly value my time with my nephew, family and friends, and won't give
> that up to cram more knowledge into my head.  It's also important to me
> to spend time exercising and pursuing non-computer hobbies.
> 
> I've accepted that I can't compete with the 16-year old hacker who lives
> for his/her computer.  Heck, my little (23-yo) brother has started being
> the one I ask about many things, not the other way around.  ;)
> 
> You've got to keep your strengths in mind in order to stay positive.
> What were you doing those years before you started working with
> computers?  I studied Biochemistry and worked a diverse range of jobs.
> What are your interests outside of computers?  If you end up doing
> consulting, relating to clients is very important.
> 
> A close friend of mine a year older than you works as a specialized O/S
> customer support professional.  She started programming, etc. when she
> was 29.  She took a position that allows her to use her technical degree
> yet emphasizes her "people" skills.  Consistently, she receives very
> positive feedback from Fortune 500 companies, feedback that some of her
> more "techie" coworkers do not, because they don't share her ability to
> talk to individuals less technically savvy than themselves.
> 
> I guess all I'm saying is that you're not alone, and don't get
> discouraged.  I can speak only for myself, but I have a lot of those
> moments.  =)
> 
> --
> Becky Norum
> Database Administrator
> Center for Subsurface Sensing and Imaging Systems (CenSSIS)
> Northeastern University
> http://www.censsis.neu.edu
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-
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RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

Australia has what is known as HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme) -
which is like a student loan , only paid back through extra tax when you
start working and in fact is only a fraction of the actual cost of your uni
education the rest being funded already by the government - which along with
Austudy, the dole and other disfunctional welfare schemes is probably why
the tax is so high (Subsidised education is actually quite a good idea
IMHO - but only if implemented right (as opposed to 'implemented by the
right' ;-))).
The interesting thing about HECS is that you only have to start paying it
back if your earning over 20k per annum (12k USD) - in Australia.

Australia has quite a few unemployed graduates collecting the dole, and
large numbers of the more employable graduates heading overseas where tax is
lower and HECS isnt collected. Funny that...


-Original Message-
From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 21:01
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


No shit!  It took me 15 YEARS to pay off my student loans - and I even had
scholarships and, at the grad level, 3 teaching fellowships.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 5:00 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


On Sat, Mar 29,'03 (02:31 PM GMT-0600), Jeff wrote:


>   probably only you can
> make that decision. its a tough one.
>

Also depends on your financial situation...sucks when you have to take out
loans for school. I think I'll be paying back my loans forever:)(Biology
major...not even computer science.:)

--
Rick

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RE: Does a degree matter?

[Mark Galbreath]

I couldn't agree more, Craig.

A bean counter?  You?  That's funny!

Mark
(Liberal Arts undergrad; Am Hist grad; polisci post-grad)

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 12:45 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci degree
at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on Accounting.  This
was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart from everyone else who
was learning programming and systems analysis in those days -- I could
immediately communicate with the end users responsible for the systems we
were building, using their vocabulary, without having to be trained -- in
addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin' programmer :-).

Craig



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Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Becky Norum]

On Sun, 2003-03-30 at 23:44, Rick Reumann wrote:
> Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too much
> too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather late
> in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
> concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
> table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
> valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather late
> in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What should
> I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time learning
> one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing about
> some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets and,
> sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
> listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can honestly
> say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22 of
> if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but not
> really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's best
> to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying to
> learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all it's
> just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me. Wish I
> could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk town
> where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
> enough rain for the crops. 

Rick,

I often feel the way you do.  I didn't get into programming until I was
24.  (28 now..). Although I don't have children of my own, I also
greatly value my time with my nephew, family and friends, and won't give
that up to cram more knowledge into my head.  It's also important to me
to spend time exercising and pursuing non-computer hobbies.

I've accepted that I can't compete with the 16-year old hacker who lives
for his/her computer.  Heck, my little (23-yo) brother has started being
the one I ask about many things, not the other way around.  ;)

You've got to keep your strengths in mind in order to stay positive. 
What were you doing those years before you started working with
computers?  I studied Biochemistry and worked a diverse range of jobs. 
What are your interests outside of computers?  If you end up doing
consulting, relating to clients is very important.  

A close friend of mine a year older than you works as a specialized O/S
customer support professional.  She started programming, etc. when she
was 29.  She took a position that allows her to use her technical degree
yet emphasizes her "people" skills.  Consistently, she receives very
positive feedback from Fortune 500 companies, feedback that some of her
more "techie" coworkers do not, because they don't share her ability to
talk to individuals less technically savvy than themselves.

I guess all I'm saying is that you're not alone, and don't get
discouraged.  I can speak only for myself, but I have a lot of those
moments.  =)

-- 
Becky Norum
Database Administrator
Center for Subsurface Sensing and Imaging Systems (CenSSIS)
Northeastern University
http://www.censsis.neu.edu



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RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Mark Galbreath]

No shit!  It took me 15 YEARS to pay off my student loans - and I even had
scholarships and, at the grad level, 3 teaching fellowships.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 5:00 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


On Sat, Mar 29,'03 (02:31 PM GMT-0600), Jeff wrote: 

  
>   probably only you can
> make that decision. its a tough one.
> 

Also depends on your financial situation...sucks when you have to take out
loans for school. I think I'll be paying back my loans forever:)(Biology
major...not even computer science.:)

-- 
Rick

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RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Mark Galbreath]

Or you can try what one of my best friends did several years ago.  He was a
self-taught wizard with no college and could not even get an interview.  So
I "manufactured" a resume for him awarding him a CS degree from a
highly-regarded state university.  He waltzed into the next job that came
along (a matter of days) and ended up writing Lockheed-Martins health
benefits application.  For the past 5 years he has been working for a very
highly-regarded West Coast firm and is now a departmental VP for software.
My experience has been that IT departments and recruiters are much more
concerned about proven experience than a degree or certification.  The
degree only gives them a sense of security, and in over 10 years in the
business I have not known a single employer to check the educational
credentials of a candidate. It's the technical interview and experience
that's important.

Moral: Don't let artificial and superficial barriers stand in your way - be
creative!  

Mark

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


A university degree is important for employers even though you have 
experience.  If nothing else it might be fun to go back to school!

David



>From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Does a degree matter?
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:09:11 -0700
>
>Hey all,
>
>I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking
>wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and 
>getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job 
>market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years 
>professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was 
>hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with 
>anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how 
>important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying

>to give his career a boost.
>
>Brandon Goodin
>
>
>-
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_



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RE: Does a degree matter?

[Puneet Agarwal]

Brandon,
But we Indians have to work like a dog ... for getting handful of
Rupees...!!!
tough to take out anytime for reading...after a work of 12-15 hours a day.

Regards,
Puneet Agarwal
Ext: 1031

Struts ... Action ... Struts in Action ... Action in Struts ... Action
"with" Struts ...


   

"Brandon   

Goodin"  To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:  
 
        s>       Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?

   

03/30/03   

02:29 AM   

Please 

respond to 

"Struts Users  

Mailing List"  

   

   





Maybe I'll go become a citizen of India... They seem to be getting a lot of
IT work. Heck $20/hour over there is like $80/hour here :-))

Brandon Goodin


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?



Hello Brandon,

Generally degrees, diplomas, accreditation, courses and the like can only
help you in any career.  But the IT career is unusual because of pace at
which things change in the IT industry.  Cheaper computers, cheaper
software
and cheaper programmers make it tough to see where you will be in a couple
of years.  Downturns in the economy and outsourcing/nearsourcing IT work to
far away lands only make it worse.

There's a lot of soul searching going on now within the IT industry.  It's
tough going from being able to get work anywhere for lots of money to
having
a tough time getting a job for much less money.

I think that if you are considering going to school for a degree, you
should
make sure that computers is the career you want.  This may be a rare
opportunity for you to consider another kind of career.

Auto mechanics now earn about the same as programmers and they can open the
windows while the work!

Good luck!

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:09 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Does a degree matter?


Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking
wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a
BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly.
2
years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my
realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all
think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his
career
a boost.

Brandon Goodin


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RE: Does a degree matter?

[Mohan Radhakrishnan]

Hi

This article http://www.well.com/user/jaron/general.html ends with
these  words "Lanier has no academic degrees". If this doesn't inspire
software programmers all over the world then nothing will.
  I've been collecting such details over the past few years. Take the
case of Jeff de Luca who was managing a bank ( UOB ) project in Singapore
while I was working in that country. The IBM site says that he started as a
clerk in IBM.
It seems that people stop learning after acquiring advanced degrees.
Software engg. is a continuous learning process. In India which has the
largest technical manpower pool in the world there are no popular software
books being published. Actually almost nothing. This probably means that
technical guys rest on their laurels and don't continue to learn. My
perception is that only people who are really interested in designing and
creating code throughout their lifetime are the successful ones. 

Mohan
   


  

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 11:15 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?




On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
>
> Brandon,
>
> If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
offering
> my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time. By
> education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job was
web
> design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
take me
> on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
>

My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.

Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).

If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).

Craig


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Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Simon Kelly]

Hi Brandon,

Just thought I'd give you my 2 cents from the position you may find yourself
in the 6 months.

I gave up a reasonably promising career in electronics to go "back to
school" to study Real-time systems (v.low level programming) at age 31.  And
although I think all of the advice you have received has been top notch,
there are a few things you may want to seriously think about before
starting, and this will apply to doing a part-time/night course as well.

1)  Your wife (I take it you have one from your original post).  You must be
sure she is behind you 100% in this.  Two other mature students on my course
have had some major problems in their relationships through going back.  The
understanding starts to wear off when you've spent four nights on the trot
programming till 2 in the morning, or doing the final touch-ups on a piece
of course work.  Too many times have I heard the comment, "Well I won't be
getting any for a while!!", after a busy night of coding from one or both of
them.

2)  Your bills. No matter what anyone has said about money, you must
remember that if you do go back you will have a lot less no-mater what
financial help you get.  This may not matter too much if you stay in a
company and do the course part-time, but if you do rely on the over-time you
can forget that, you wont have the time to do it with the course work.

3)  (Part-time/night course)  Social life!!  You wont have one!  I did my
electronics qualifications part-time when I worked for HP.  You can forget
any social activities you do if you expect to get good grades doing it this
way.  Uni is easier, and you can make a bit of time for the social (read
beer drinking) activities, but not much.  The lecturers expect better from a
mature student, and you will find (like I do) you spend a little more time
on your work than the 18-21 year olds.

Having said all of that, if you never did the college/university thing when
you were younger like me, this is the best time to do it.  I took an 85%
drop in income to do the degree and have not regretted one second of it.

Unfortunately people *do* check for degrees first when employing, no matter
the field.  It is a shame this happens as I have known people who could run
rings around the whole engineering departments who never had a look in for
some of the jobs.  It may only be a piece of paper, but it's the one that
gets you the interview!!  And employers can't see you shine, if you ain't
sat in front of them.

Well, good luck no matter what you choose to do.  Just make sure your better
half is in the decision making from the start ;-)

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


> Wow, this has been some incredible insight. I can't thank you enough for
> your advice. It has been extremly helpful in helping me to focus my
> direction. As always you guys/girls have shown true heart in assisting a
> fellow geek. Thanks again!
>
> Brandon Goodin
>
>
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RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

Yep. I understand what you mean.
Ive often wondered if there is any job out there like that, but I have not
been able to think of one :-(

I certainly understand the "know what you need to do" wish! One often spends
more time working out what to do than one does doing it... 

master: We need some enhancements to the product. When can you have it ready
by?
slave:  If you tell me what you need I can give you an estimate.
master: We havent decided yet, but I need an estimate now.
slave:  Okay ummm hows "two weeks" sound.
master: Too long. Sales promised it would be ready today.
slave:  So , uhh, I guess it could be ready by end of today?
master: I need it by lunchtime.
slave:  So exactly what is it you need by lunchtime?
master: Why dont you just do it and Ill tell you if you got it right
afterwards - but make sure you dont get it wrong. This is vital to us
getting the bigCo account. Everyone is counting on you!



-Original Message-
From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 13:37
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


On Mon, Mar 31,'03 (12:56 PM GMT+0800), Andrew wrote:

> My old man was a farm labourer. Its no walk in the park,

Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that it would be and of course I
really wasn't serious about wanting to be a farmer (I'm way too lazy
for that job:). I just meant it from the standpoint that sometimes I'm
envious of those positions where you "know what you need to do and you
just do it and if you do it well you can be successful." - idealistic I
know especially in today's complex world. I was thinking more back to
the days when maybe one was a quality cobbler or a quality blacksmith
and you did your job well and you managed to get by ok. I assume back
then they had their problems as well I'm sure. It just appears life was
simpler - not necessarily easier by any means- just simpler. Of course
everything is relative, and to the people back then life probably seemed
anything but 'simple.'

--
Rick

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Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Rick Reumann]

On Mon, Mar 31,'03 (12:56 PM GMT+0800), Andrew wrote: 
  
> My old man was a farm labourer. Its no walk in the park, 

Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that it would be and of course I
really wasn't serious about wanting to be a farmer (I'm way too lazy
for that job:). I just meant it from the standpoint that sometimes I'm
envious of those positions where you "know what you need to do and you
just do it and if you do it well you can be successful." - idealistic I
know especially in today's complex world. I was thinking more back to
the days when maybe one was a quality cobbler or a quality blacksmith
and you did your job well and you managed to get by ok. I assume back
then they had their problems as well I'm sure. It just appears life was
simpler - not necessarily easier by any means- just simpler. Of course
everything is relative, and to the people back then life probably seemed
anything but 'simple.' 

-- 
Rick

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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Rahul]

Hello Brandon,
I agree with Jeff and Craig. I think its the "can do" attitude that should
matter, and not just the "has done" facts :p

I never touched or learned programming until I graduated  in Commerce.
Simultaneously pursued my hobby in Japanese and then landed in job as a
language specialist... with a .guess what ..a software
company. That was when I was bitten by the programming bug :p , and have
never looked back since then. I have done a certificate course and quiet a
few certifications and had an oppurtunity to work for some good companies
over the last 6 years.

No doubt , its not a smooth sail for many of us in current times. there
are employers for whom degrees are a bare minimum to even look at a resume.
But I think, personally for me it finally boils down to pursuing what you
want to. Though nothing measures up to hand-on experience but then that's
not undermining the hard work many of us put in when earning degrees. I
think the 2 descions pointed out in Jeff's email are crucial.

cheers :)

Rahul


- Original Message -
From: "Jeff Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?


> Hi Brandon. I thought I'd watch the responses to this thread before
weighing
> in with an opinion. I was interested to note that none of the responses
> appear to have come from hiring managers. So I thought you might benefit
> from an opinion on that side of the debate.
>
> In my career I have hired over 100 different developers on a wide number
of
> projects. And in my experience, the paper qualifications only matter in
the
> first 3-5 years after school. Once you have those first few projects under
> your belt, it is your experience that matters, far more than your formal
> training. (In other words, it takes from 3-5 years of experience to catch
up
> to the pack.)
>
> Although it is hard to generalize about companies and employers (since
they
> are all run by people, and people vary widely) I can say that in general
> terms, the more liberal hiring policies tend to be in the smaller and more
> "progressively" managed organizations. Larger, more institutional
employers
> have a much more formalized, and rigid hiring practice. The first
screening
> of resumes in such places tends to be done by professional HR people, who
> are generally only qualified to screen for check-list items. (The job says
> A, B and C are required. Here's a fabulous resume with A, B, D, E, F and J
> thru N. But he's missing C. Reject.)
>
> So here are a couple of really important decisions for you to consider:
> 1) Do you prefer the mayhem of start-ups and small companies to the
security
> of large institutional employers?
> 2) Do you already have, or can you be reasonably confident in getting
those
> first few years of experience?
> If you said "yes" to both of those, you may be able to successfully avoid
> the school thing. If you said "No" to either one, school might be a safer
> bet.
>
> For what it's worth, in the last company I ran, the guy I promoted to
Chief
> Architect did not have a degree of any kind. He was primarily self-taught.
> But he got the job because he was dedicated, articulate, responsible and
> clearly understood the technology and the needs of the company. In my
book,
> those are far more valuable than 4 years of sleeping through lectures.
>
> Jefficus
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:09 PM
> Subject: Does a degree matter?
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking
wind
> on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a
> BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
> really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly.
2
> years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
> languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my
> realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all
> think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his
career
> a boost.
>
> Brandon Goodin
>
>
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RE: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

Wish I
could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk town
where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
enough rain for the crops.


My old man was a farm labourer. Its no walk in the park, and (in Australia
at least) God has been decidedly stingy with the old h20 for a couple of
years in a row now and there are a lot of farmers who probably wish they
took up IT - it sure beats the heck out of having to trudge around in dusty
46 degree heat shooting all the starving flyblown sheep you paid a fortune
for but cant afford to feed or water anymore...

-Original Message-
From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 12:45
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?


Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too much
too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather late
in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather late
in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What should
I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time learning
one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing about
some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets and,
sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can honestly
say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22 of
if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but not
really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's best
to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying to
learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all it's
just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me. Wish I
could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk town
where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
enough rain for the crops.

--
Rick

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Re: [OT] overwhelmed [was] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Rick Reumann]

Does anyone else ever wake up going "Man, I feel overwhelmed. Too much
too learn, not enough time." I started this computer stuff rather late
in life and find it very difficult trying to pick out what to try
concentrate my learning in. Bottom line is I have to put food on the
table for the family so I have to concentrate in skill sets that are
valuable (and not just fun:). I started this computer stuff rather late
in life (4 years ago and I'm 33 now) and constantly wonder "What should
I concentrate on learning next?" When you spend too much time learning
one area you fall behind in another. That's what I find so amazing about
some of these job applications- is they put down tons of skill sets and,
sure there might be a few that truly 'know' all of the skill sets
listed, but rarely have I come across that many people that can honestly
say they are proficient in all of them. Then it's also the Catch-22 of
if you diverse too much you end up being "ok" at a lot of stuff but not
really "good" at any one skill. It seems like in this market it's best
to just concentrate on being very good at a few skill sets vs trying to
learn everything, but I could be totally wrong there. All and all it's
just very frustrating:) Ehhh I'm just venting... just ignore me. Wish I
could just start over and be a farmer in some little rural ho-dunk town
where my greatest concerns would be whether God was going to provide
enough rain for the crops. 

-- 
Rick

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RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

Well computings always been a hobby of mine since I was knee high to a
grasshopper, so it was actually quite easy - I already knew C , so C++ wasnt
difficult to pick up. The main thing that I found difficult understanding
first time were relational database concepts.

-Original Message-
From: Kwok Peng Tuck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 11:52
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


Just curious but did you find the transition from Econs to comp sc
difficult ? Cause I might do the reverse, comp science  to Econs !

>Mine for example is in a different discipline completely (Economics) though
>having graduated from that I went straight on to do a grad diploma in
>computing so I could actually do something that would get me a job - buts
>its been the degree thats counted for more in various applications (jobs,
>visas etc...) despite being quite irrelevant to my work.
>
>
>
>


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Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Kwok Peng Tuck]

Just curious but did you find the transition from Econs to comp sc 
difficult ? Cause I might do the reverse, comp science  to Econs !

Mine for example is in a different discipline completely (Economics) though
having graduated from that I went straight on to do a grad diploma in
computing so I could actually do something that would get me a job - buts
its been the degree thats counted for more in various applications (jobs,
visas etc...) despite being quite irrelevant to my work.
 

 



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RE: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-)


Beer?

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 30 March 2003 13:45
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?




On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
>
> Brandon,
>
> If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
offering
> my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time. By
> education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job was
web
> design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
take me
> on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
>

My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.

Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).

If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).

Craig


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RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Andrew Hill]

These days Job Applications without degrees tend to get stamped [FRIDAY] and
filed appropriately...

A degree can help you get a chance at being evaluated as a candidate, though
curiously , having a degree that is relevant often seems less important than
having a degree.
Mine for example is in a different discipline completely (Economics) though
having graduated from that I went straight on to do a grad diploma in
computing so I could actually do something that would get me a job - buts
its been the degree thats counted for more in various applications (jobs,
visas etc...) despite being quite irrelevant to my work.

Personally I think experience should count for more than education. All the
good stuff I know about (Java, Patterns, XP , struts etc...), I learned
during my working life... (Mind you 80 to 90 hours of work per week tends to
cram a lot more knowledge in than a few hours of occasional lectures
interrupting relaxation at the university tavern!)

-Original Message-
From: Jeff Kyser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 30 March 2003 04:31
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?


Unfortunately, to many who are hiring, the degree is an important
screen before further consideration. and in a tough market, where
there are many applicants for each job, they can afford to be choosy.

I've known many a bright guy who did not have a degree,
and their salary always seemed lower that others who might
be less competent / productive, but who had degrees. I'm sure there
are exceptions, including some spectacular ones, but that's
certainly the general trend I've seen.

and with defense contracting, where I worked most of my career,
many times, labor categories on government procurements were
tied to degrees and years of experience, and it was very difficult
to even place a non-degreed person on a high dollar position.

That being said, is it worth it? Depends  - how close would you
be to a degree (any prerequisites out of the way yet?). How
much can you stand working all day and going to school at
night, being away from family? probably only you can
make that decision. its a tough one.

-jeff

On Saturday, March 29, 2003, at 02:09  PM, Brandon Goodin wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am
> sucking wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to
> school and getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive
> in the job market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing
> development for 5 years professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years
> Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those languages on my own. My
> knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of experience.
> Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a BA in
> Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a > boost.
>
> Brandon Goodin
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Phil Steitz]

Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:


Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
Brandon,

If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard offering
my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time. By
education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job was web
design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not take me
on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.


My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.
Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.
* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?
It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).
If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).
Craig


As someone who has hired and been hired many times over the years, I 
have to agree with the main point above in terms of market value for a 
CS degree per se -- not a big differentiator.  The most important 
question to ask, in my mind, is are you *interested* in computer science 
and will the programs that you are considering add value to you 
personally. If you really have an interest in CS, it can be an excellent 
field of study for developing the cognitive skills and discipline that 
really can make a difference in solving hard technical problems and 
learning new technologies quickly.   So can math, engineering, business 
or virtually any academic discipline with an exacting technical 
component. In my experience, people who have mastered a technical 
discipline of some sort tend to be better at technical learning. Given 
the pace of technology change, technical learning ability is the most 
important quality in a technologist of any kind today, IMHO. This is 
what I look for when I hire people.

So...bottom line is that I would recommend pursuing a CS degree if a) 
you have a genuine interest in CS and b) you find a program that focuses 
on the foundations/fundamentals to avoid the pitfalls that Craig 
mentions above.

-Phil



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[OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Brandon Goodin]

Wow, this has been some incredible insight. I can't thank you enough for
your advice. It has been extremly helpful in helping me to focus my
direction. As always you guys/girls have shown true heart in assisting a
fellow geek. Thanks again!

Brandon Goodin


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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Arron Bates wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:21 -0600
> From: Arron Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?
>
> Brandon,
>
> If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard offering
> my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time. By
> education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job was web
> design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not take me
> on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.
>

My personal experience (both for myself and for folks I have hired over
the years) mirrors this -- indeed, my personal opinion is that a Comp Sci
degree is worth less (to me as an employer) than a degree in some field
that is more closely associated with the general needs of potential
employers.

Why?  A couple of reasons:

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees obsess over learning the
  particular technologies being taught in their classes, at the expense
  of courses to improve your general thinking skills.  Any specific
  technology you learn in your first year is going to be totally
  obsolete by the time you graduate from the program anyway, so why
  bother?  The important skill to employers (at least from my viewpoint)
  is that you've learned how to quickly adapt your existing skills to
  new technologies as they become available.  Also, the fundamentals
  of good architecture and design practices tend to change much more
  slowly than the favorite language de jour -- so if you decide to go
  for Comp Sci, focus on fundamentals like O-O, design patterns,
  and so on.

* Many folks who go for Comp Sci degrees are so focused on the technical
  things, and don't accumulate any domain knowledge along the way that
  would make you *more* valuable to potential employers than another
  Comp Sci graduate with similar skills.  If you're building e-commerce
  systems, do you know anything about the fundamental accounting
  principles involved in tracking purchases?  If you're building
  systems to introduce novices to the world of online information,
  have you ever studied any human factors engineering?  If you're
  building trading systems for a Wall Street broker, do you have the
  slightest idea how stock and commodity exchanges work?

It may surprise some of you to find out that I don't have a Comp Sci
degree at all -- instead, I got a BA in Business with a focus on
Accounting.  This was ***tremendously*** helpful in setting me apart from
everyone else who was learning programming and systems analysis in those
days -- I could immediately communicate with the end users responsible for
the systems we were building, using their vocabulary, without having to be
trained -- in addition to the fact that I was a fair-to-middlin'
programmer :-).

If you are looking at going to college today (either because it's that
time in your life, or because the job market sucks right now), I would
suggest thinking about a primary major other than Comp Sci (with a Comp
Sci minor to keep your hand in on all the technical stuff).  The name of
the game is making yourself more valuable, relative to everyone else out
there -- and, quite frankly, there are more interesting things in the
world than just computers and web apps :-).

Craig


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RE: Does a degree matter?

[Benjamin Simpson]

Brandon, 

I am in the same boat.  Full time job as a software contractor, 5 years
combined java and other technologies, two young kids
(www.simpsonboys.com), a house that needs more work than I am able to
do, and on and on and on.  

I am currently taking one night class at Eastern Michigan University per
semester.  I am considering doubling up and taking an online course as
well.  My focus is in English / technical writing, because I believe my
writing needs more practice.  I veered away from a computer science
degree because I wanted to broaden what I offered the project team.  

Financially, there are some tax advantages for undergraduate course
work, state tax incentives (at least in Michigan) and student loan
advantages if you still have any outstanding.  Consider those advantages
when looking at the whole picture.  

Another thing to consider; you get to be around other adults with common
interests.  If you take night classes, you will have an opportunity to
socialize with other (computer programmers?) if computer science is your
area of emphasis.  It has been my experience, this list being the
exception that it is, not to expect too much when considering the social
benefits of being among programmers. 

Good luck, spring classes start in a few weeks.  Online classes are
being offered by real universities all over the country at in state
tuition rates (www.EMich.edu included).

Good luck,

Benjamin Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Arron Bates [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 9:36 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Does a degree matter?

Brandon,

If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard
offering
my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time. By
education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job
was web
design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not
take me
on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.

Not having the comp sci degree hasn't been a thorn in my side. People
just
worry that you can get the job done. I've worked along side people with
masters, and some rock, other's aren't fit to fetch me my coffee...  :P
   ...most employers recognise that
  (and as a result, get better people to fetch me my coffee).

If you're thinking about spending time to put yourself out there... I
reckon
the best thing I ever did was while away some hours eventually becomming
a
participant in an open source project. Followed with a tiny site with
some
tutorials, helping a few people out along the way. It's been a good
thing.

I'd just tend to say, pick a project that scratches and itch, write
something
for it, and put it out there. The big plus is that in an interview, if
the
topic comes up that touches on the topic that your thing works against,
you
can spiel about it with great enthusiasm which is hard to ignore.

But, if there's something at uni that you want to scratch an itch, I'd
probably go ahead with it. I'd love to go to uni to do 3D graphics, but
it's
hard for me to be pragmatic when the end result is still just looking
for work.

Then you add to the mix that getting a job is more than just your quals.
It's
interview technique (spielability skills), are you confident,
communicate, etc
etc. Which is another entirely depressing rant all together.

Anyways, it's all just my opinion.

All the best mate.


Arron.



> Hey all,
> 
> I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am
sucking wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting
a BA
in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
really
worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2
years
Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
languages on
my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of
experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a
BA in
Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a boost. 
> 
> Brandon Goodin
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Jeff Smith]

Hi Brandon. I thought I'd watch the responses to this thread before weighing
in with an opinion. I was interested to note that none of the responses
appear to have come from hiring managers. So I thought you might benefit
from an opinion on that side of the debate.

In my career I have hired over 100 different developers on a wide number of
projects. And in my experience, the paper qualifications only matter in the
first 3-5 years after school. Once you have those first few projects under
your belt, it is your experience that matters, far more than your formal
training. (In other words, it takes from 3-5 years of experience to catch up
to the pack.)

Although it is hard to generalize about companies and employers (since they
are all run by people, and people vary widely) I can say that in general
terms, the more liberal hiring policies tend to be in the smaller and more
"progressively" managed organizations. Larger, more institutional employers
have a much more formalized, and rigid hiring practice. The first screening
of resumes in such places tends to be done by professional HR people, who
are generally only qualified to screen for check-list items. (The job says
A, B and C are required. Here's a fabulous resume with A, B, D, E, F and J
thru N. But he's missing C. Reject.)

So here are a couple of really important decisions for you to consider:
1) Do you prefer the mayhem of start-ups and small companies to the security
of large institutional employers?
2) Do you already have, or can you be reasonably confident in getting those
first few years of experience?
If you said "yes" to both of those, you may be able to successfully avoid
the school thing. If you said "No" to either one, school might be a safer
bet.

For what it's worth, in the last company I ran, the guy I promoted to Chief
Architect did not have a degree of any kind. He was primarily self-taught.
But he got the job because he was dedicated, articulate, responsible and
clearly understood the technology and the needs of the company. In my book,
those are far more valuable than 4 years of sleeping through lectures.

Jefficus

- Original Message -
From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:09 PM
Subject: Does a degree matter?


Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a
BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2
years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my
realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all
think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career
a boost.

Brandon Goodin


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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Adam Sherman]

On 03/29/03 20:36:21 -0600 Arron Bates wrote:

If you're thinking about spending time to put yourself out there... I
reckon the best thing I ever did was while away some hours eventually
becomming a participant in an open source project. Followed with a tiny
site with some tutorials, helping a few people out along the way. It's
been a good thing.
I would like to enthusiastically second Arron here, as an employer I always 
look for real concrete proof of what candidates are, uh, spieling about.

After some rather bad experiences, I do not trust resumes or even 
interviews. I want to see small projects. Being able to search some mailing 
lists and find real day-to-day comments by the individual is fantastic and 
gives me lots of confidence.

My two cents,

A.

--
Adam Sherman
Tritus CG Inc.
http://www.tritus.ca/
+1 (613) 797-6819
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Re: Does a degree matter?

[Arron Bates]

Brandon,

If you can do the deed (which it sounds like you can), I would hazard offering
my opinion in thinking that it wouldn't be the best use of your time. By
education I'm a graphic designer, not a computer scientist. First job was web
design, programmer ever since. Results... I've only had two places not take me
on because it's not a computer degree. Two interviews of hundreds.

Not having the comp sci degree hasn't been a thorn in my side. People just
worry that you can get the job done. I've worked along side people with
masters, and some rock, other's aren't fit to fetch me my coffee...  :P
   ...most employers recognise that
  (and as a result, get better people to fetch me my coffee).

If you're thinking about spending time to put yourself out there... I reckon
the best thing I ever did was while away some hours eventually becomming a
participant in an open source project. Followed with a tiny site with some
tutorials, helping a few people out along the way. It's been a good thing.

I'd just tend to say, pick a project that scratches and itch, write something
for it, and put it out there. The big plus is that in an interview, if the
topic comes up that touches on the topic that your thing works against, you
can spiel about it with great enthusiasm which is hard to ignore.

But, if there's something at uni that you want to scratch an itch, I'd
probably go ahead with it. I'd love to go to uni to do 3D graphics, but it's
hard for me to be pragmatic when the end result is still just looking for work.

Then you add to the mix that getting a job is more than just your quals. It's
interview technique (spielability skills), are you confident, communicate, etc
etc. Which is another entirely depressing rant all together.

Anyways, it's all just my opinion.

All the best mate.


Arron.



> Hey all,
> 
> I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a BA
in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it really
worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2 years
Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those languages on
my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of
experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a BA in
Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a boost. 
> 
> Brandon Goodin
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Becky Norum]

Brandon,

What I've been hearing more and more from my friends at larger corporate
institutions is that a degree does matter, especially in these difficult
times.  It is reflected in your pay as well as potential for
advancement, let alone employment.  It seems to be less important at
smaller businesses and academic institutions.

This is the perfect time to go back to school if it is economically
feasible for you and your family.  

Another thought is that many employers, especially Universities, will
pay for you to take classes.  My system admin is working on his B.A. -
our boss actively encourages us to pursue higher education. I finished
my M.S. while employed here, and my boss gave me some work time to work
through my courses.

Getting a CS degree at this point in the game may seem redundant to you,
but there is a lot you can gain from pursuing a degree.  Many
non-traditional students excel when they return to school because of
their interest in the field as well as the wealth of knowledge they
bring with them.  Even if you hated high school and traditional
classroom environments as many of us did, the experience can be
completely different as an adult student.

I would look into local universities and colleges and at least check out
your options.  

Best of luck,

Becky Norum  (BS Biochemistry, MS Information Systems)


> >From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Does a degree matter?
> >Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:09:11 -0700
> >
> >Hey all,
> >
> >I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking 
> >wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and 
> >getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job 
> >market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years 
> >professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was 
> >hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with 
> >anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how 
> >important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying 
> >to give his career a boost.
> >
> >Brandon Goodin



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Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Rick Reumann]

On Sat, Mar 29,'03 (02:31 PM GMT-0600), Jeff wrote: 

  
>   probably only you can
> make that decision. its a tough one.
> 

Also depends on your financial situation...sucks when you have to take
out loans for school. I think I'll be paying back my loans
forever:)(Biology major...not even computer science.:)

-- 
Rick

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RE: Does a degree matter?

[Brandon Goodin]

Maybe I'll go become a citizen of India... They seem to be getting a lot of IT work. 
Heck $20/hour over there is like $80/hour here :-))

Brandon Goodin
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Does a degree matter?



Hello Brandon,

Generally degrees, diplomas, accreditation, courses and the like can only
help you in any career.  But the IT career is unusual because of pace at
which things change in the IT industry.  Cheaper computers, cheaper software
and cheaper programmers make it tough to see where you will be in a couple
of years.  Downturns in the economy and outsourcing/nearsourcing IT work to
far away lands only make it worse.  

There's a lot of soul searching going on now within the IT industry.  It's
tough going from being able to get work anywhere for lots of money to having
a tough time getting a job for much less money.  

I think that if you are considering going to school for a degree, you should
make sure that computers is the career you want.  This may be a rare
opportunity for you to consider another kind of career.

Auto mechanics now earn about the same as programmers and they can open the
windows while the work!

Good luck!

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:09 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Does a degree matter?


Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a
BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2
years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my
realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all
think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career
a boost. 

Brandon Goodin


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RE: Does a degree matter?

[stephen . clement]

Hello Brandon,

Generally degrees, diplomas, accreditation, courses and the like can only
help you in any career.  But the IT career is unusual because of pace at
which things change in the IT industry.  Cheaper computers, cheaper software
and cheaper programmers make it tough to see where you will be in a couple
of years.  Downturns in the economy and outsourcing/nearsourcing IT work to
far away lands only make it worse.  

There's a lot of soul searching going on now within the IT industry.  It's
tough going from being able to get work anywhere for lots of money to having
a tough time getting a job for much less money.  

I think that if you are considering going to school for a degree, you should
make sure that computers is the career you want.  This may be a rare
opportunity for you to consider another kind of career.

Auto mechanics now earn about the same as programmers and they can open the
windows while the work!

Good luck!

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Brandon Goodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:09 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Does a degree matter?


Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking wind
on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a
BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it
really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2
years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those
languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my
realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all
think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career
a boost. 

Brandon Goodin


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[OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[Jeff Kyser]

Unfortunately, to many who are hiring, the degree is an important
screen before further consideration. and in a tough market, where
there are many applicants for each job, they can afford to be choosy.
I've known many a bright guy who did not have a degree,
and their salary always seemed lower that others who might
be less competent / productive, but who had degrees. I'm sure there
are exceptions, including some spectacular ones, but that's
certainly the general trend I've seen.
and with defense contracting, where I worked most of my career,
many times, labor categories on government procurements were
tied to degrees and years of experience, and it was very difficult
to even place a non-degreed person on a high dollar position.
That being said, is it worth it? Depends  - how close would you
be to a degree (any prerequisites out of the way yet?). How
much can you stand working all day and going to school at
night, being away from family? probably only you can
make that decision. its a tough one.
-jeff

On Saturday, March 29, 2003, at 02:09  PM, Brandon Goodin wrote:

Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am 
sucking wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to 
school and getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive 
in the job market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing 
development for 5 years professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years 
Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those languages on my own. My 
knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of experience. 
Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a BA in 
Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a > boost.

Brandon Goodin

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[OT] Re: Does a degree matter?

[David Graham]

A university degree is important for employers even though you have 
experience.  If nothing else it might be fun to go back to school!

David



From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Does a degree matter?
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:09:11 -0700
Hey all,

I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking 
wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and 
getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job 
market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years 
professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was 
hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with 
anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how 
important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying 
to give his career a boost.

Brandon Goodin

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_



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