Re: HTML and text

[Daniel]

Michael Gordon wrote:

Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 3:20 PM


On 03/22/09 08:49, Michael Gordon wrote:

Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 10:05 AM


On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

Rick Merrill wrote:




Some folks have e-mail accounts where they are limited to the total size 
in bytes of their collective messages, when that limit is reached all 
incoming messages are blocked and maybe a server reply is returned to 
the sender stating the receivers mail box is full.





Michael


It's worse for me, Michael!

Once my mailbag limit is reached, it starts to cost me extra, 
hard-earned, cash.


Daniel
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Re: HTML and text

[Barclay, Daniel]

Michael Gordon wrote:
> 
> There really is no good reason to send a message in both formats, ...

Yes there is.

Understand MIME (the fallback aspect) before arguing that position.

Daniel
-- 
(Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML "courtesy" of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]

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Re: HTML and text

[Moz Champion (Dan)]

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

Rick Merrill wrote:

text
html
Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
that suggests this is the case.


In short, yes.

When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.



If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
your screen, but both will be there in the message.


Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
message size would be 55KB to 65KB


Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.


No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
appreciate HTML e-mail?



No good reason to send both, send each group seperately.

The ones who read plain text only will NOT see the html part, so the 
message size is grossly inflated for the content. i.e. 25KB of plain 
text but the message size is anywher from 55 to 65KB


Those who read html will not see the plain text part, so there is 25KB 
of useless 'bloat' in the message if you send both.


While you may be on broadband, and using protocols/hosts that don't 
limit you to file sizes or space, many (approx 60% of Americans - more 
in some other countries) are still on dialup, and some even pay for time.


For example, where my family is (rural setting), use of the internet 
ties up their phone line, is quite slow (28K). Sending them html 
messages because someone ELSE can read them is impolite, improper and 
callous.

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Re: HTML and text

[Mark Hansen]

On 03/22/09 14:52, Michael Gordon wrote:
> Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 3:20 PM
> 
>> On 03/22/09 08:49, Michael Gordon wrote:
>>> Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 10:05 AM
>>>
>>>> On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>> Rick Merrill wrote:
>>>>>> text
>>>>>> html
>>>>>> Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
>>>>>> does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
>>>>>> that suggests this is the case.
>>>>> In short, yes.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
>>>>> course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
>>>>> 'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
>>>>> program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
>>>>> your screen, but both will be there in the message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
>>>>> would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
>>>>> message size would be 55KB to 65KB
>>>>>
>>>>> Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
>>>>> for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
>>>>> only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
>>>>> are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.
>>>> No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
>>>> a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
>>>> appreciate HTML e-mail?
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> There really is no good reason to send a message in both formats, it 
>>> simply clutters up the message and makes it much larger for no good reason.
>> Still? Really?
>> 
>>> In your example you can send the messages in the format that is 
>>> preferred by the persons receiving the message, even if they are in a 
>>> single group with different preferences.
>> 
>> This assumes you know the preferences of all the recipients in advance.
>> The person composing the e-mail may not.
> If the person composing the message is considerate of the other persons 
> preferences in receiving mail then the person sending the message will 
> conform to those preferences.  It has not been very long ago that major 
> cooperations that send out e-mail messages to their customers sent one 
> very special message, asking if they prefer plain text or HTML formatted 
> messages.  The lesson here is if you want to keep good relations with 
> your customers you will comply with what they want, not what you want.

I'm trying to point out that you're making a big assumption here.
Perhaps you can't think about it any other way. The recipients and their
preferences are an issue for the person creating the e-mail, not you.

The e-mail author may know that some want HTML, while others want
plain text, and it may be too hard for him to keep track of them
individually. We just don't know.

To arbitrarily dismiss any such possibilities is short sighted, IMHO.

>> 
>> 
>>> In your address book for each card you have a button and selection for 
>>> ASCII (plain text), HTML (formatted), and unknown.  This will select the 
>>> correct formatting for you when you click the Send Button.
>>>
>>> Keep in mind that if you format in HTML and create formated text, 
>>> tables, and inline images the persons receiving your message in ASCII 
>>> will never see your fancy formatting.  The only way this really oworks 
>>> well is if the formatting you compose is to the text characters of the 
>>> message (bold, underscore, color, etc.).
>> 
>> It doesn't matter what the sender wants to do with the e-mail message, only
>> that he wants to send in both formats.
> 
> Some folks have e-mail accounts where they are limited to the total size 
> in bytes of their collective messages, when that limit is reached all 
> incoming messages are blocked and maybe a server reply is returned to 
> the sender stating the receivers mail box is full.

Well, that's a less than stellar argument. However, I'm not going to
try to convince you otherwise.

Best regards,

> 
>> 
>>> Michael
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Re: HTML and text

[Michael Gordon]

Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 3:20 PM


On 03/22/09 08:49, Michael Gordon wrote:

Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 10:05 AM


On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

Rick Merrill wrote:

text
html
Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
that suggests this is the case.

In short, yes.

When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.



If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
your screen, but both will be there in the message.


Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
message size would be 55KB to 65KB


Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.

No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
appreciate HTML e-mail?

Mark,

There really is no good reason to send a message in both formats, it 
simply clutters up the message and makes it much larger for no good reason.

Still? Really?

In your example you can send the messages in the format that is 
preferred by the persons receiving the message, even if they are in a 
single group with different preferences.


This assumes you know the preferences of all the recipients in advance.
The person composing the e-mail may not.
If the person composing the message is considerate of the other persons 
preferences in receiving mail then the person sending the message will 
conform to those preferences.  It has not been very long ago that major 
cooperations that send out e-mail messages to their customers sent one 
very special message, asking if they prefer plain text or HTML formatted 
messages.  The lesson here is if you want to keep good relations with 
your customers you will comply with what they want, not what you want.



In your address book for each card you have a button and selection for 
ASCII (plain text), HTML (formatted), and unknown.  This will select the 
correct formatting for you when you click the Send Button.


Keep in mind that if you format in HTML and create formated text, 
tables, and inline images the persons receiving your message in ASCII 
will never see your fancy formatting.  The only way this really oworks 
well is if the formatting you compose is to the text characters of the 
message (bold, underscore, color, etc.).


It doesn't matter what the sender wants to do with the e-mail message, only
that he wants to send in both formats.


Some folks have e-mail accounts where they are limited to the total size 
in bytes of their collective messages, when that limit is reached all 
incoming messages are blocked and maybe a server reply is returned to 
the sender stating the receivers mail box is full.





Michael

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Re: HTML and text

[»Q«]

In ,
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
 wrote:

> David E. Ross wrote:
> 
> > I also looked at the quality of the HTML in HTML-formatted messages.
> > The mean number of errors reported by 
> > was 9.1 errors per KB of file size.
> 
> but for the average person sending an email, this means 
> nothing.

That's true, unfortunately.  The problems are only encountered on the
receiving end.

A few months ago, there was a start to an effort to standardize some
subset of html tags for use in e-mail, but I don't know if it got any
traction.  As it is now, html mails sent with one client (usually)
display ok if the receiver uses the same client, whereas with
text/plain all the clients are interoperable.

[followup set to mozilla.general]

-- 
»Q«
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Re: HTML and text

[David E. Ross]

On 3/22/2009 11:24 AM, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote:
> 
>> I also looked at the quality of the HTML in HTML-formatted messages.
>> The mean number of errors reported by  was 9.1
>> errors per KB of file size.  
> 
> but for the average person sending an email, this means 
> nothing.
> 

It could make a difference to the recipient, especially if the recipient
wants to reply or forward the message.

While I have no problem reading HTML-formatted messages, my E-mail
client (NOT Thunderbird or SeaMonkey) scrambles the quoted message for a
reply or forward if the HTML contains certain bugs.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: HTML and text

[JeffM]

>David E. Ross wrote:
>>I also looked at the quality of the HTML in HTML-formatted messages.
>>The mean number of errors reported by 
>>was 9.1 errors per KB of file size.
>>
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>but for the average person sending an email, this means nothing.
>
Obviously.  These are the same cretins
who email out multi-megabyte graphical attachments.

Remember: By definition,
half of all people are of below-average intelligence.
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Re: HTML and text

[Mark Hansen]

On 03/22/09 08:49, Michael Gordon wrote:
> Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 10:05 AM
> 
>> On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>> Rick Merrill wrote:
>>>> text
>>>> html
>>>> Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
>>>> does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
>>>> that suggests this is the case.
>>>
>>> In short, yes.
>>>
>>> When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
>>> course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
>>> 'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
>>> program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
>>> your screen, but both will be there in the message.
>>>
>>> Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
>>> would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
>>> message size would be 55KB to 65KB
>>>
>>> Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
>>> for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
>>> only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
>>> are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.
>> 
>> No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
>> a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
>> appreciate HTML e-mail?
> 
> Mark,
> 
> There really is no good reason to send a message in both formats, it 
> simply clutters up the message and makes it much larger for no good reason.
Still? Really?

> 
> In your example you can send the messages in the format that is 
> preferred by the persons receiving the message, even if they are in a 
> single group with different preferences.

This assumes you know the preferences of all the recipients in advance.
The person composing the e-mail may not.


> 
> In your address book for each card you have a button and selection for 
> ASCII (plain text), HTML (formatted), and unknown.  This will select the 
> correct formatting for you when you click the Send Button.
> 
> Keep in mind that if you format in HTML and create formated text, 
> tables, and inline images the persons receiving your message in ASCII 
> will never see your fancy formatting.  The only way this really oworks 
> well is if the formatting you compose is to the text characters of the 
> message (bold, underscore, color, etc.).

It doesn't matter what the sender wants to do with the e-mail message, only
that he wants to send in both formats.

> 
> Michael
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Re: HTML and text

[Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo]

David E. Ross wrote:


I also looked at the quality of the HTML in HTML-formatted messages.
The mean number of errors reported by  was 9.1
errors per KB of file size.  


but for the average person sending an email, this means 
nothing.


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Notice: This posting is protected under the Free Speech 
Laws, which applies everywhere in the FREE world, 
except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org 
newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned.


Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
http://melaman2.com/cartoons/singles/mp3/p-potamus.mp3
http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm
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Re: HTML and text

[David E. Ross]

On 3/22/2009 5:50 AM, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> Rick Merrill wrote:
>> text
>> html
>> Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
>> does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
>> that suggests this is the case.
> 
> 
> In short, yes.
> 
> When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
> course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.
> 
> 
> If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
> 'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
> program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
> your screen, but both will be there in the message.
> 
> Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
> would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
> message size would be 55KB to 65KB
> 
> Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
> for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
> only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
> are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.

I collected data on sizes of some 20 HTML-formatted messages that I
received.  I then looked at the sizes of the text in ASCII.  The mean
bloat factor was 3.7.  Thus, a 25 KB ASCII message (your example) could
easily exceed 90 KB if HTML-formatted.

I also looked at the quality of the HTML in HTML-formatted messages.
The mean number of errors reported by <http://validator.w3.org/> was 9.1
errors per KB of file size.  Thus, your example of a 25 KB ASCII message
converted into an HTML-formatted message might contain as many as 840
HTML errors.

Of course, these statistics are highly dependent on the E-mail
application used to format and send the message.  I did not examine what
applications were in use for the 20 messages.  For details -- including
my methodology -- see my
<http://www.rossde.com/internet/ASCIIvsHTML.html>.

-- 
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Go to Mozdev at <http://www.mozdev.org/> for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: HTML and text

[Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo]

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

Rick Merrill wrote:

text
html
Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
that suggests this is the case.


In short, yes.

When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.



If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
your screen, but both will be there in the message.


Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
message size would be 55KB to 65KB


Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.


No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
appreciate HTML e-mail?


you might get lots of people telling you not to send in 
html, and some of them will tell you not to send in 
html and text.


My advice on that: ingnore them.  Do what you want!

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except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org 
newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned.


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Re: HTML and text

[Michael Gordon]

Mark Hansen replied On 3/22/2009 10:05 AM


On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

Rick Merrill wrote:

text
html
Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
that suggests this is the case.


In short, yes.

When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.



If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
your screen, but both will be there in the message.


Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
message size would be 55KB to 65KB


Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.


No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
appreciate HTML e-mail?


Mark,

There really is no good reason to send a message in both formats, it 
simply clutters up the message and makes it much larger for no good reason.


In your example you can send the messages in the format that is 
preferred by the persons receiving the message, even if they are in a 
single group with different preferences.


In your address book for each card you have a button and selection for 
ASCII (plain text), HTML (formatted), and unknown.  This will select the 
correct formatting for you when you click the Send Button.


Keep in mind that if you format in HTML and create formated text, 
tables, and inline images the persons receiving your message in ASCII 
will never see your fancy formatting.  The only way this really oworks 
well is if the formatting you compose is to the text characters of the 
message (bold, underscore, color, etc.).


Michael
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Re: HTML and text

[Gregory Hicks]

> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:05:37 -0700
> From: Mark Hansen 
> Subject: Re: HTML and text
> To: support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org
> 
> [...]
> 
> No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
> a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
> appreciate HTML e-mail?

HTML readers CAN read plain text.  It just shows up as... text with no 
bells and whistles.

-
Gregory Hicks   | Principal Systems Engineer
| Direct:   408.569.7928

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men
stand ready to do violence on their behalf -- George Orwell

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.  -- Thomas Jefferson

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they
be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton

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Re: HTML and text

[Mark Hansen]

On 03/22/09 06:50, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> Rick Merrill wrote:
>> text
>> html
>> Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
>> does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
>> that suggests this is the case.
> 
> 
> In short, yes.
> 
> When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
> course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.
> 
> 
> If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
> 'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
> program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
> your screen, but both will be there in the message.
> 
> Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
> would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
> message size would be 55KB to 65KB
> 
> Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
> for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
> only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
> are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.

No good reason to ever send both? What if you're sending a message to
a group of people, some of whom read only plain text, and some of whom
appreciate HTML e-mail?
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Re: HTML and text

[Moz Champion (Dan)]

Rick Merrill wrote:

text
html
Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
that suggests this is the case.



In short, yes.

When you send in plain text, the message is sent in plain text of 
course. When you send in html, the message is sent in html.



If you send in 'both' (plain text and html) there is a plain text 
'portion' and a html 'portion' sent.  Depending on your email/news 
program (and it's settings) you will only usually 'see' one version on 
your screen, but both will be there in the message.


Dependent on how much html is used, a plain text message of say 25KB 
would perhaps be 30KB to 40KB if sent html. If sent both, then the 
message size would be 55KB to 65KB


Never send both. It more than doubles the size of a plain text message 
for no good reason. If a person is reading in plain text only, they will 
only see the plain text version, the html is useless to them. If they 
are reading in html, the plain text version is likewise useless.

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HTML and text

[Rick Merrill]

text
html
Html AND text = when this option for email is used,
does the text get doubled up?  I often receive email
that suggests this is the case.
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