Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Jon Francombe - Audio Team]

Hi All,

I've been involved in the work being discussed around "media device 
orchestration" — using an ad hoc array of connected, synchronised devices to 
create an immersive spatial audio experience. It's something we've been looking 
at in the S3A: Future Spatial Audio project (http://www.s3a-spatialaudio.org/).

Unfortunately, the trial production we released ("The Vostok-K Incident") is 
offline at the moment — we're working to get it up and running again and I'll 
let you know when it is. But there's information about how it was made and our 
thinking behind it here: 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2018-10-multi-speaker-immersive-audio-metadata.

And some papers here: http://bit.ly/MDOpublications.

Happy to chat further about this—please get in touch if you're interested.

Thanks,
Jon Francombe



On 11/01/2019, 18:47, "Steven Boardman"  wrote:

Media Device Orchestration?
If so here's a paper i read a while ago...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://epubs.surrey.ac.uk/841961/1/2017-08%2520Francombe%2520AudioMostly.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0v4Xzr-bfAhUfIDQIHTxADnAQFjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1yCbn-9qrgAiho8Dd1u4vt

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, 18:44 Augustine Leudar  Please - just call me Gus ;)
> At Hyunkooks conference there was someone who had the idea of using phones
> (I think in tandem)I cant quire remmeber but I "think" it was  The 
Vostok-K
> Incident – an immersive audio drama for ad hoc arrays of media devices
> o If you go to this link and right click it  :
>
>
> 
https://research.hud.ac.uk/institutes-centres/apl/events/wimp18/wimp18programme/
>
> Anyway I cant quite remember but there was something a bit limiting about
> it (it didnt do surround sound or you couldnt choose the position of the
> speakers  etc)  - I just though wouldn't it be great if you could buy a
> bunch of speakers , dot them around the room and the speakers would tell
> the media player where they were located (using GPS, or some local 
wireless
> positioning system)  which channel they were and then the player would
> decode to that speaker array. One day - eh - it would solve the problem of
> getting surround sound into the public's homes I reckon. My main interest
> is an an artist  creating content rather than developing technical
> solutions but Im happy to chat about them.
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:54, Oddity Medium 
> wrote:
>
> > Dr Leudar, was your email directed at me? Re: "exactly the same idea"?
> > If so, I'd like to discuss it more with you.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Augustine Leudar <
> > augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Had exactly the same idea - there were some people at Hynunkooks
> > conference
> > > (WIMP) last year doing something similar.
> > >
> > > <
> > >
> >
> 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > > >
> > > Virus-free.
> > > www.avast.com
> > > <
> > >
> >
> 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > > >
> > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >
> > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:59, Oddity Medium 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple
> independent
> > > > speakers as multichannels.
> > > >
> > > > Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four 
(mono)
> > > > speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
> > > >
> > > > So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four
> files
> > > > playing across these four devices.
> > > >
> > > > Any tips on how to go about this?
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges <
> pwh-surro...@cassland.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > > > > > files is to make them 5.1.
> > > > >
> > > > > I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools 
suite
> > pf
> > > > > programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set
> an
> > > > > appropriate channel mask.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a
> browser
> > > > > > to recognise 4.0?
> > > > >
> > > > > In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that
> they
> > > > > all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to 
be
> > > > > multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the 
most
> > > > > appropriate mixing to match the channels between the

Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

I converted / rendered files in Reaper, In to  Opus, but a lot of other
media formats are available.

What file format do you have in the caf container?

Bosse



Den mån 14 jan. 2019 03:11 skrev Marc Lavallée :

> Le 2019-01-13 à 8:20 p.m., Stefan Schreiber a écrit :
> > Spatial media metadata not only for Youtube:
> >
> > https://github.com/google/spatial-media
> >
> >
> https://github.com/google/spatial-media/blob/master/docs/spatial-audio-rfc.md
> >
> >
> > However, what is the source for HOA metadata? I am not sure that there
> > is anything “official” around here...
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> Thanks, but the injector doesn't work on caf files:
>
> python2 spatialmedia ~/Music/AJH_eight-positions.caf
> Processing: /home/marc/Music/AJH_eight-positions.caf
> Unknown file type
>
> The question remains: how to convert amb files to ambix files with the
> required metatada for VLC3?
>
> Marc
>
> > - - -
> >
> > Citando Politis Archontis :
> >
> >>> On 13 Jan 2019, at 22:08, Bo-Erik Sandholm 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Angelo Farina has created a metadata "injector" to make ambisonic
> >>> work in
> >>>
> >>>  VLC.
> >>>
> >>>  I think he described it it a posting in the ambisonic 360 VR audio
> >>> facebook
> >>>
> >>>  group
> >>
> >> Actually, the standard “spatial media metadata” injector provided by
> >> Google (the one for preparing Youtube 360 videos) worked for me with
> >> FOA ambiX in VLC.
> >>
> >>  For 3rd-order files however there is a modified version of Google’s
> >> one around, which I’m pretty sure Prof. Farina has.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Archontis
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-13 à 8:20 p.m., Stefan Schreiber a écrit :

Spatial media metadata not only for Youtube:

https://github.com/google/spatial-media

https://github.com/google/spatial-media/blob/master/docs/spatial-audio-rfc.md 



However, what is the source for HOA metadata? I am not sure that there 
is anything “official” around here...


Best,

Stefan


Thanks, but the injector doesn't work on caf files:

python2 spatialmedia ~/Music/AJH_eight-positions.caf
Processing: /home/marc/Music/AJH_eight-positions.caf
Unknown file type

The question remains: how to convert amb files to ambix files with the 
required metatada for VLC3?


Marc


- - -

Citando Politis Archontis :


On 13 Jan 2019, at 22:08, Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:



 Angelo Farina has created a metadata "injector" to make ambisonic 
work in


 VLC.

 I think he described it it a posting in the ambisonic 360 VR audio 
facebook


 group


Actually, the standard “spatial media metadata” injector provided by 
Google (the one for preparing Youtube 360 videos) worked for me with 
FOA ambiX in VLC.


 For 3rd-order files however there is a modified version of Google’s 
one around, which I’m pretty sure Prof. Farina has.




 Archontis

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Stefan Schreiber]

Spatial media metadata not only for Youtube:

https://github.com/google/spatial-media

https://github.com/google/spatial-media/blob/master/docs/spatial-audio-rfc.md

However, what is the source for HOA metadata? I am not sure that there  
is anything “official” around here...


Best,

Stefan

- - -

Citando Politis Archontis :


On 13 Jan 2019, at 22:08, Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:



 Angelo Farina has created a metadata "injector" to make ambisonic work in

 VLC.

 I think he described it it a posting in the ambisonic 360 VR audio facebook

 group


Actually, the standard “spatial media metadata” injector provided by  
Google (the one for preparing Youtube 360 videos) worked for me with  
FOA ambiX in VLC.


 For 3rd-order files however there is a modified version of Google’s  
one around, which I’m pretty sure Prof. Farina has.




 Archontis

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Politis Archontis]

> On 13 Jan 2019, at 22:08, Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:
> 
> Angelo Farina has created a metadata "injector" to make ambisonic work in
> VLC.
> I think he described it it a posting in the ambisonic 360 VR audio facebook
> group

Actually, the standard “spatial media metadata” injector provided by Google 
(the one for preparing Youtube 360 videos) worked for me with FOA ambiX in VLC. 
For 3rd-order files however there is a modified version of Google’s one around, 
which I’m pretty sure Prof. Farina has.

Archontis
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

Angelo Farina has created a metadata "injector" to make ambisonic work in
VLC.
I think he described it it a posting in the ambisonic 360 VR audio facebook
group

Bo


Den sön 13 jan. 2019 19:27 skrev Politis Archontis <
archontis.poli...@aalto.fi>:

> Hi Marc,
>
> I believe it expects the “spatial media” metadata to be written in the
> file for VLC to interpret it as ambisonic.
> It worked for me in the past. Yes, it’s a shame that it is completely
> undocumented, especially since it was advertised as one of the cool new
> features of VLC 3.
>
> The decoder is also possible to playback 3rd-order AmbiX files, with a
> more convoluted process. With a bit of digging I realized VLC uses a fixed
> decoder with 27 loudspeakers, the 20 on the vertices of a dodecahedron, and
> 7 more on the horizontal plane. I was able to replace the stock HRTF
> filters for these directions coming with VLC, with a hand-crafted SOFA file
> of own HRTFs, with good results.
>
> Archontis Politis
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2019, at 20:00, Marc Lavallée  m...@hacklava.net>> wrote:
>
> Le 2019-01-13 à 12:58 p.m., Marc Lavallée a écrit :
>
> I installed VLC (3.0.6 Veritani) on my Linux laptop
>
> Oops, I meant "Vetinari"...
>
> Marc
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Politis Archontis]

Hi Marc,

I believe it expects the “spatial media” metadata to be written in the file for 
VLC to interpret it as ambisonic.
It worked for me in the past. Yes, it’s a shame that it is completely 
undocumented, especially since it was advertised as one of the cool new 
features of VLC 3.

The decoder is also possible to playback 3rd-order AmbiX files, with a more 
convoluted process. With a bit of digging I realized VLC uses a fixed decoder 
with 27 loudspeakers, the 20 on the vertices of a dodecahedron, and 7 more on 
the horizontal plane. I was able to replace the stock HRTF filters for these 
directions coming with VLC, with a hand-crafted SOFA file of own HRTFs, with 
good results.

Archontis Politis


On 13 Jan 2019, at 20:00, Marc Lavallée 
mailto:m...@hacklava.net>> wrote:

Le 2019-01-13 à 12:58 p.m., Marc Lavallée a écrit :

I installed VLC (3.0.6 Veritani) on my Linux laptop

Oops, I meant "Vetinari"...

Marc

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-13 à 12:58 p.m., Marc Lavallée a écrit :


I installed VLC (3.0.6 Veritani) on my Linux laptop


Oops, I meant "Vetinari"...

Marc

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-13 à 3:58 a.m., Bo-Erik Sandholm a écrit :


The VLC supports ambix coded soundfield, there is somwhere a multimedia
version in the works that will make it possible to use headtracking
according to the VLC main developer.

Bosse


I installed VLC (3.0.6 Veritani) on my Linux laptop, and I converted a 
file from amb to ambix (using the latest libambix tools): 
http://ambisonia.com/download/AJH_eight-positions.caf


When played over headphones, no decoding ocurred. There's 2 modules 
named "Ambisonics renderer and binauralizer" (a filter and a renderer), 
but their use is undocumented.


Any idea how to use them?

Marc

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-12 à 9:01 p.m., Stefan Schreiber a écrit :

Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural 
listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple 
with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).


- - -

Why would you not be able to decode ambisonics to a speaker array (for 
example 4.0 or 5.1), <  from a browser >?



Maybe this is no common option yet today, but why not in the future?

If a browser is able to support 5.1 (stereophonic surround), decoding 
of ambisonics to some 5.1 system should actually be no problem. (via 
WebAudio)


The usual way to support decoding of ambisonics (only) to binaural is 
because the normal application case of ambisonics is nowadays to be 
some “ audio track” for VR or 360° video.


Right?!

I don’t think this is just an abstract discussion, by the way. Maybe 
such decoding functions could added to Omnitone, for example?


There are strong indications that support for surround sound is 
getting stronger, finally. We might be able to help a bit, via feature 
request and own solutions.


Best regards

Stefan



Yes, decoding to an array of speakers directly from a browser was a 
feature planned in my initial project, but considering the state of 
domestic surround today, and the ubiquity of headphones and earbubs, I'm 
not convinced it's worth developping a complete in-browser solution. 
Also, the Web Audio API was a mess, but maybe it's better now. And in 
terms of integration, is always safer to have access to more than one 
software technology (more than a "browser").


Marc

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Politis Archontis]

Hi,

In JSAmbisonics online demos we have an example that decodes to 8 speakers, 
working in Chrome with success. I remember we had some problem getting output 
for more channels out at that time, but that was a year ago and things may have 
changed in Web-Audio.

In general, the library supports one to provide and use their own decoding 
matrices for 1st-15th order for 2D, and 1st-4th order for 3D, hence one could 
write their preferred optimized decoding matrices to decode to 5.1 or 7.1, or 
binaural, and give the option in a player to switch from one to the other. The 
library can also compute internally a decoding matrix, based on ALLRAD, which 
should work ok in most cases.

I haven’t used Omnitone, but it may be providing the same functionality now. 
Since these libraries take care of the processing and decoding, and provide 
examples for playing B-format files, FOA and HOA, in any connvention, wrapping 
them in a web-based audio player should be trivial.

Best regards,
Archontis Politis



On 13 Jan 2019, at 12:35, Bo-Erik Sandholm 
mailto:bosses...@gmail.com>> wrote:

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/AudioDestinationNode

Destination channel numbers can be as many as soundcard outputs !
So yes there is nothing stopping us from having multichannel outputs from a
web audio implemented in JavaScript..

Bosse


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 09:58 Bo-Erik Sandholm 
mailto:bosses...@gmail.com> wrote:


As far as I understand there is nothing stopping us to access a
multichannel soundcard from the browser.

To Marc, there is nothing else than the html competence and time that
stops us from using Omnitone or JSAmbisonics to produce websites with
Ambisonic content.

I think with the www.ohti.xyz, this is produced with faint 
memories of a
html course in the end of the eighties and googling shows this.

The thing that I have not been able to figure out is how to create a
interface for creating playlist or a GUI for a directory at files for click
and play.

The VLC supports ambix coded soundfield, there is somwhere a multimedia
version in the works that will make it possible to use headtracking
according to the VLC main developer.

Bosse




- -

Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural
listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple
with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).

- - -

Why would you not be able to decode ambisonics to a speaker array (for
example 4.0 or 5.1), <  from a browser >?


Maybe this is no common option yet today, but why not in the future?

If a browser is able to support 5.1 (stereophonic surround), decoding
of ambisonics to some 5.1 system should actually be no problem. (via
WebAudio)

The usual way to support decoding of ambisonics (only) to binaural is
because the normal application case of ambisonics is nowadays to be
some “ audio track” for VR or 360° video.

Right?!

I don’t think this is just an abstract discussion, by the way. Maybe
such decoding functions could added to Omnitone, for example?


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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/AudioDestinationNode

Destination channel numbers can be as many as soundcard outputs !
So yes there is nothing stopping us from having multichannel outputs from a
web audio implemented in JavaScript..

Bosse


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 09:58 Bo-Erik Sandholm 
> As far as I understand there is nothing stopping us to access a
> multichannel soundcard from the browser.
>
> To Marc, there is nothing else than the html competence and time that
> stops us from using Omnitone or JSAmbisonics to produce websites with
> Ambisonic content.
>
> I think with the www.ohti.xyz, this is produced with faint memories of a
> html course in the end of the eighties and googling shows this.
>
> The thing that I have not been able to figure out is how to create a
> interface for creating playlist or a GUI for a directory at files for click
> and play.
>
> The VLC supports ambix coded soundfield, there is somwhere a multimedia
> version in the works that will make it possible to use headtracking
> according to the VLC main developer.
>
> Bosse
>
>
>
>
>> - -
>>
>> > Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural
>> > listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple
>> > with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> Why would you not be able to decode ambisonics to a speaker array (for
>> example 4.0 or 5.1), <  from a browser >?
>>
>>
>> Maybe this is no common option yet today, but why not in the future?
>>
>> If a browser is able to support 5.1 (stereophonic surround), decoding
>> of ambisonics to some 5.1 system should actually be no problem. (via
>> WebAudio)
>>
>> The usual way to support decoding of ambisonics (only) to binaural is
>> because the normal application case of ambisonics is nowadays to be
>> some “ audio track” for VR or 360° video.
>>
>> Right?!
>>
>> I don’t think this is just an abstract discussion, by the way. Maybe
>> such decoding functions could added to Omnitone, for example?
>>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

As far as I understand there is nothing stopping us to access a
multichannel soundcard from the browser.

To Marc, there is nothing else than the html competence and time that stops
us from using Omnitone or JSAmbisonics to produce websites with Ambisonic
content.

I think with the www.ohti.xyz, this is produced with faint memories of a
html course in the end of the eighties and googling shows this.

The thing that I have not been able to figure out is how to create a
interface for creating playlist or a GUI for a directory at files for click
and play.

The VLC supports ambix coded soundfield, there is somwhere a multimedia
version in the works that will make it possible to use headtracking
according to the VLC main developer.

Bosse




On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 03:01 Stefan Schreiber  Citando Marc Lavallée :
>
> > Le 2019-01-12 à 3:03 p.m., David Pickett a écrit :
> >
> >> At 20:33 12-01-19, Marc wrote:
> >>
> >>> What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a
> >>> "standard" standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player
> >>> could play and decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio
> >>> streaming web site), then it'd be an excellent start. Something
> >>> similar to what audio streaming is for stereo, and that we take
> >>> for granted. What went wrong with surround sound in general is
> >>> still a mystery to me... But there's hope.
> >>
> .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  But I am always ready to be corrected!
>
> - -
>
> > Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural
> > listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple
> > with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).
>
> - - -
>
> Why would you not be able to decode ambisonics to a speaker array (for
> example 4.0 or 5.1), <  from a browser >?
>
>
> Maybe this is no common option yet today, but why not in the future?
>
> If a browser is able to support 5.1 (stereophonic surround), decoding
> of ambisonics to some 5.1 system should actually be no problem. (via
> WebAudio)
>
> The usual way to support decoding of ambisonics (only) to binaural is
> because the normal application case of ambisonics is nowadays to be
> some “ audio track” for VR or 360° video.
>
> Right?!
>
> I don’t think this is just an abstract discussion, by the way. Maybe
> such decoding functions could added to Omnitone, for example?
>
> There are strong indications that support for surround sound is
> getting stronger, finally. We might be able to help a bit, via feature
> request and own solutions.
>
> Best regards
>
> Stefan
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

These are links to the videos I have taken the sounds simple from, Angelo
Farina has published many videos with TOA soundtracks.

They are interested only in the jump-videos directory.


http://www.angelofarina.it/Public/Jump-Videos/Corde-Vocali/Jump-3rd-order/

http://www.angelofarina.it/Public/Jump-Videos/Choir-Cathedral-June2017/Jump-Inspector-TOA/

Bosse
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Stefan Schreiber]

Citando Marc Lavallée :


Le 2019-01-12 à 3:03 p.m., David Pickett a écrit :


At 20:33 12-01-19, Marc wrote:

What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a  
"standard" standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player  
could play and decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio  
streaming web site), then it'd be an excellent start. Something  
similar to what audio streaming is for stereo, and that we take  
for granted. What went wrong with surround sound in general is  
still a mystery to me... But there's hope.


If I understand you correctly, the idea is to stream WXY (to keep  
it simple) and have this decoded in the browser, rather than 4.0  
directly. This seems to me to be akin to using M&S files rather  
than L&R. It involves a further layer of complication at the client  
end, and I am not sure of the advantage, other than it reduces data  
bandwith by 25%; but bandwidth is surely not a problem these days.




 But I am always ready to be corrected!


- -

Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural  
listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple  
with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).


- - -

Why would you not be able to decode ambisonics to a speaker array (for  
example 4.0 or 5.1), <  from a browser >?



Maybe this is no common option yet today, but why not in the future?

If a browser is able to support 5.1 (stereophonic surround), decoding  
of ambisonics to some 5.1 system should actually be no problem. (via  
WebAudio)


The usual way to support decoding of ambisonics (only) to binaural is  
because the normal application case of ambisonics is nowadays to be  
some “ audio track” for VR or 360° video.


Right?!

I don’t think this is just an abstract discussion, by the way. Maybe  
such decoding functions could added to Omnitone, for example? 


There are strong indications that support for surround sound is  
getting stronger, finally. We might be able to help a bit, via feature  
request and own solutions.


Best regards

Stefan
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-12 à 4:40 p.m., Bo-Erik Sandholm a écrit :


I improved my test / demo site www.ohti.xyz today.

I added the demo for Omnitone SOA and TOA playback, with drag and drop an
rotation, local file playback.

It works in Chrome on my 3 year old Lenovo yoga tablet 2.

The examples I have there is 16 channel 24 bit TOA encoded in opus.

The server is somwhere in Germany 😎 I think.


The 16-channel HOA demos are sounding great! I wonder how better it 
would be with a personal HRTF...



By the way VLC supports Ambisonics in the Facebook format (I think).


That's good news (I'm a bit late learning it now). I installed VLC 3.0.6 
but I don't know where to get sample files (or streams) in the Facebook 
format. Does it also support Ambix and Opus files?


Marc


Bosse



On 12 Jan 2019 21:52, "Marc Lavallée"  wrote:

Le 2019-01-12 à 3:03 p.m., David Pickett a écrit :


At 20:33 12-01-19, Marc wrote:


What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a
"standard" standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player could
play and decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio streaming
web site), then it'd be an excellent start. Something similar to what
audio streaming is for stereo, and that we take for granted. What
went wrong with surround sound in general is still a mystery to me...
But there's hope.

If I understand you correctly, the idea is to stream WXY (to keep it
simple) and have this decoded in the browser, rather than 4.0
directly. This seems to me to be akin to using M&S files rather than
L&R. It involves a further layer of complication at the client end,
and I am not sure of the advantage, other than it reduces data
bandwith by 25%; but bandwidth is surely not a problem these days.

But I am always ready to be corrected!

Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural
listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple
with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).
Decoding from a desktop (or mobile) app would be a better start, like in
the good old days of "helper apps" for the first web browsers. I guess
that ambisonics support could be added to VLC or Volumio, or a custom
multi-platform app. Internet radio stations exists because stereo
streams can be played on any audio player that can connect to the
Internet, so the same could be done for ambisonics. Is it just wishful
thinking?


Marc


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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

I improved my test / demo site www.ohti.xyz today.

I added the demo for Omnitone SOA and TOA playback, with drag and drop an
rotation, local file playback.

It works in Chrome on my 3 year old Lenovo yoga tablet 2.

The examples I have there is 16 channel 24 bit TOA encoded in opus.

The server is somwhere in Germany 😎 I think.

By the way VLC supports Ambisonics in the Facebook format (I think).

Bosse



On 12 Jan 2019 21:52, "Marc Lavallée"  wrote:

Le 2019-01-12 à 3:03 p.m., David Pickett a écrit :

> At 20:33 12-01-19, Marc wrote:
>
>> What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a
>> "standard" standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player could
>> play and decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio streaming
>> web site), then it'd be an excellent start. Something similar to what
>> audio streaming is for stereo, and that we take for granted. What
>> went wrong with surround sound in general is still a mystery to me...
>> But there's hope.
>
> If I understand you correctly, the idea is to stream WXY (to keep it
> simple) and have this decoded in the browser, rather than 4.0
> directly. This seems to me to be akin to using M&S files rather than
> L&R. It involves a further layer of complication at the client end,
> and I am not sure of the advantage, other than it reduces data
> bandwith by 25%; but bandwidth is surely not a problem these days.
>
> But I am always ready to be corrected!

Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural
listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple
with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup).
Decoding from a desktop (or mobile) app would be a better start, like in
the good old days of "helper apps" for the first web browsers. I guess
that ambisonics support could be added to VLC or Volumio, or a custom
multi-platform app. Internet radio stations exists because stereo
streams can be played on any audio player that can connect to the
Internet, so the same could be done for ambisonics. Is it just wishful
thinking?


Marc


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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-12 à 3:03 p.m., David Pickett a écrit :


At 20:33 12-01-19, Marc wrote:

What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a 
"standard" standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player could 
play and decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio streaming 
web site), then it'd be an excellent start. Something similar to what 
audio streaming is for stereo, and that we take for granted. What 
went wrong with surround sound in general is still a mystery to me... 
But there's hope.


If I understand you correctly, the idea is to stream WXY (to keep it 
simple) and have this decoded in the browser, rather than 4.0 
directly. This seems to me to be akin to using M&S files rather than 
L&R. It involves a further layer of complication at the client end, 
and I am not sure of the advantage, other than it reduces data 
bandwith by 25%; but bandwidth is surely not a problem these days.


But I am always ready to be corrected!


Decoding in the browser would be for casual use, mostly for binaural 
listening, but decoding to speaker arrays would be nice, for exemple 
with 5.1 system (as a 4.1 system with a square or rectangular setup). 
Decoding from a desktop (or mobile) app would be a better start, like in 
the good old days of "helper apps" for the first web browsers. I guess 
that ambisonics support could be added to VLC or Volumio, or a custom 
multi-platform app. Internet radio stations exists because stereo 
streams can be played on any audio player that can connect to the 
Internet, so the same could be done for ambisonics. Is it just wishful 
thinking?


Marc

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[David Pickett]

At 20:33 12-01-19, Marc wrote:

What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a 
"standard" standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player 
could play and decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio 
streaming web site), then it'd be an excellent start. Something 
similar to what audio streaming is for stereo, and that we take for 
granted. What went wrong with surround sound in general is still a 
mystery to me... But there's hope.


If I understand you correctly, the idea is to stream WXY (to keep it 
simple) and have this decoded in the browser, rather than 4.0 
directly. This seems to me to be akin to using M&S files rather than 
L&R. It involves a further layer of complication at the client end, 
and I am not sure of the advantage, other than it reduces data 
bandwith by 25%; but bandwidth is surely not a problem these days.


But I am always ready to be corrected!

David

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-12 à 12:26 p.m., aswath Prabhu a écrit :


Re: Publishing music in ambisonics


This is further to my post asking about online portal to stream and post 
ambisonic content.

Well, i searched a little and found this... Looks like development has stopped 
but i guess it can be further developed from the code available.

I havent used it but from what i see, you can play files from a particular URL. 
So that helps. if its successful, then all we need is a hosting site to host 
ambisonic content created by individuals and who knows, it might evolve into a 
radio channel...


https://web.archive.org/web/20070705153625/http://www.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Playback_Software


Thanks

Aswath Prabhu


Aswath, I partly rescued ambisonia.com and I acquired the domain. So 
what's now on display at ambisonia.com is a static version of the old 
site, without the wiki and other collaborative tools. I also created an 
experimental player on ambisonic.xyz, using the same content than 
ambisonia.com, reduced to 3 channels (for horizontal only FOA) and 
compressed with the Opus codec. Both sites are on the same servers. My 
plan (at the time) was to revive ambisonia.com as a collaborative 
publishing platform, with a "revolutionary" web player. I did it before 
Google and Facebook created their ambisonics publishing platforms (and 
tools). I think that my project is still valid today, so maybe I'll 
continue (with a better plan)...


What seems to be still missing (but I could be wrong), is a "standard" 
standalone ambisonics audio player. If such a player could play and 
decode ambisonics audio streams (hosted on a audio streaming web site), 
then it'd be an excellent start. Something similar to what audio 
streaming is for stereo, and that we take for granted. What went wrong 
with surround sound in general is still a mystery to me... But there's hope.


Marc

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Back then (4 years ago) I made a script to create compressed version of 
ambisonics files from source .amb files. It was rendering m4a and opus 
files with any numbers of channels (like 3 channels for horizontal-only 
FOA). It was using the channelx and interlx utils from the MCTools suite 
to extract and reassemble channels in intermediate files. Final m4a 
files were compressed using the fdkaac tool from Fraunhofer. So only 
libre/open tools were used, on Linux (the same should be possible on OSX 
and Windows).


Marc

Le 2019-01-11 à 8:53 a.m., Paul Hodges a écrit :

--On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:


I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
files is to make them 5.1.

I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
appropriate channel mask.



Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
to recognise 4.0?

In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.

Paul


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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Jeanine Cowen]

Another web-based player caught my eye the other day. Using WebVR it is 
compatible with the stated browsers fo that protocol and also provides for 
rotating in the image.

http://labs.plan8.se/ambisonics-webplayer/ 
<http://labs.plan8.se/ambisonics-webplayer/>

Given that it is based on Omnitone it should be relatively straightforward to 
adapt for a personal website.

JC


Jeanine Cowen
Professor, Film Scoring
Berklee College of Music
jco...@berklee.edu <mailto:jco...@berklee.edu>
617-747-8675 office
617-332-2970 cell

http://www.berklee.edu <http://www.berklee.edu/>

> On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:00 PM, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> 
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 15:57:19 +
> From: aswath Prabhu mailto:aswath...@hotmail.com>>
> To: "sursound@music.vt.edu <mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu>" 
> mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu>>
> Subject: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics
> Message-ID:
>   
>   
> <mailto:sn6pr04mb4445eabdc18ef13eae95c415e0...@sn6pr04mb4445.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Good day to you all,
> 
> I would like to know as to how to publish the audio that you make in 
> ambisonics on the web.
> 
> If i have a stereo file, its easy to upload to Soundcloud, Bandcamp etc. But 
> am not really sure if there is any online player or player to embed in a 
> website that can play B format WAV files.
> 
> I guess for videos its only Youtube 360 or facebook. I mean, can i have 
> surround sound audio in a video and upload it on any of the video sites like 
> vimeo, dailymotion, youtube etc. when i mean surround, I mean using 
> ambisonics!!
> 
> Please advice.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Aswath Prabhu

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Steven Boardman]

Media Device Orchestration?
If so here's a paper i read a while ago...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://epubs.surrey.ac.uk/841961/1/2017-08%2520Francombe%2520AudioMostly.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0v4Xzr-bfAhUfIDQIHTxADnAQFjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1yCbn-9qrgAiho8Dd1u4vt

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019, 18:44 Augustine Leudar  Please - just call me Gus ;)
> At Hyunkooks conference there was someone who had the idea of using phones
> (I think in tandem)I cant quire remmeber but I "think" it was  The Vostok-K
> Incident – an immersive audio drama for ad hoc arrays of media devices
> o If you go to this link and right click it  :
>
>
> https://research.hud.ac.uk/institutes-centres/apl/events/wimp18/wimp18programme/
>
> Anyway I cant quite remember but there was something a bit limiting about
> it (it didnt do surround sound or you couldnt choose the position of the
> speakers  etc)  - I just though wouldn't it be great if you could buy a
> bunch of speakers , dot them around the room and the speakers would tell
> the media player where they were located (using GPS, or some local wireless
> positioning system)  which channel they were and then the player would
> decode to that speaker array. One day - eh - it would solve the problem of
> getting surround sound into the public's homes I reckon. My main interest
> is an an artist  creating content rather than developing technical
> solutions but Im happy to chat about them.
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:54, Oddity Medium 
> wrote:
>
> > Dr Leudar, was your email directed at me? Re: "exactly the same idea"?
> > If so, I'd like to discuss it more with you.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Augustine Leudar <
> > augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Had exactly the same idea - there were some people at Hynunkooks
> > conference
> > > (WIMP) last year doing something similar.
> > >
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > > >
> > > Virus-free.
> > > www.avast.com
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > > >
> > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >
> > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:59, Oddity Medium 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple
> independent
> > > > speakers as multichannels.
> > > >
> > > > Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
> > > > speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
> > > >
> > > > So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four
> files
> > > > playing across these four devices.
> > > >
> > > > Any tips on how to go about this?
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges <
> pwh-surro...@cassland.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > > > > > files is to make them 5.1.
> > > > >
> > > > > I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite
> > pf
> > > > > programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set
> an
> > > > > appropriate channel mask.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a
> browser
> > > > > > to recognise 4.0?
> > > > >
> > > > > In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that
> they
> > > > > all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
> > > > > multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
> > > > > appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
> > > > > available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Paul Hodges
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Sursound mailing list
> > > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > > here,
> > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > -- next part --
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> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > >
> > > > ___
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> > here,
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > > Company Number : NI635217
> > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > > Belfast BT88LL
> > > www.magikdoor.net
> > > +44(0)7555784775
> > > -- next part --
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> > >
>

Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Augustine Leudar]

and yes you could do that with different devices - but I just cant see the
public putting a laptop on the mantlepiece - and iphone on the windowsill
etc - I reckon the more commercially viable options is a bespoke set of
speakers. Make it so no 1.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 18:43, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Please - just call me Gus ;)
> At Hyunkooks conference there was someone who had the idea of using phones
> (I think in tandem)I cant quire remmeber but I "think" it was  The
> Vostok-K Incident – an immersive audio drama for ad hoc arrays of media
> devices
> o If you go to this link and right click it  :
>
>
> https://research.hud.ac.uk/institutes-centres/apl/events/wimp18/wimp18programme/
>
> Anyway I cant quite remember but there was something a bit limiting about
> it (it didnt do surround sound or you couldnt choose the position of the
> speakers  etc)  - I just though wouldn't it be great if you could buy a
> bunch of speakers , dot them around the room and the speakers would tell
> the media player where they were located (using GPS, or some local wireless
> positioning system)  which channel they were and then the player would
> decode to that speaker array. One day - eh - it would solve the problem of
> getting surround sound into the public's homes I reckon. My main interest
> is an an artist  creating content rather than developing technical
> solutions but Im happy to chat about them.
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:54, Oddity Medium 
> wrote:
>
>> Dr Leudar, was your email directed at me? Re: "exactly the same idea"?
>> If so, I'd like to discuss it more with you.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Had exactly the same idea - there were some people at Hynunkooks
>> conference
>> > (WIMP) last year doing something similar.
>> >
>> > <
>> >
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>> > >
>> > Virus-free.
>> > www.avast.com
>> > <
>> >
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>> > >
>> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> >
>> > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:59, Oddity Medium 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple
>> independent
>> > > speakers as multichannels.
>> > >
>> > > Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
>> > > speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
>> > >
>> > > So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four
>> files
>> > > playing across these four devices.
>> > >
>> > > Any tips on how to go about this?
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges <
>> pwh-surro...@cassland.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett 
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
>> > > > > files is to make them 5.1.
>> > > >
>> > > > I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite
>> pf
>> > > > programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
>> > > > appropriate channel mask.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a
>> browser
>> > > > > to recognise 4.0?
>> > > >
>> > > > In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that
>> they
>> > > > all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
>> > > > multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
>> > > > appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
>> > > > available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
>> > > >
>> > > > Paul
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Paul Hodges
>> > > >
>> > > > ___
>> > > > Sursound mailing list
>> > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
>> > here,
>> > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> > > >
>> > > -- next part --
>> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > > URL: <
>> > >
>> >
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190111/b0916531/attachment.html
>> > > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Sursound mailing list
>> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
>> here,
>> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Augustine Leudar
>> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
>> > Company Number : NI635217
>> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
>> > Belfast BT88LL
>> > www.magikdoor.net
>> > +44(0)7555784775
>> > -- next part --
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> >
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190111/7e8e4fd7/attachment.html
>> > >
>> > 

Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Augustine Leudar]

Please - just call me Gus ;)
At Hyunkooks conference there was someone who had the idea of using phones
(I think in tandem)I cant quire remmeber but I "think" it was  The Vostok-K
Incident – an immersive audio drama for ad hoc arrays of media devices
o If you go to this link and right click it  :

https://research.hud.ac.uk/institutes-centres/apl/events/wimp18/wimp18programme/

Anyway I cant quite remember but there was something a bit limiting about
it (it didnt do surround sound or you couldnt choose the position of the
speakers  etc)  - I just though wouldn't it be great if you could buy a
bunch of speakers , dot them around the room and the speakers would tell
the media player where they were located (using GPS, or some local wireless
positioning system)  which channel they were and then the player would
decode to that speaker array. One day - eh - it would solve the problem of
getting surround sound into the public's homes I reckon. My main interest
is an an artist  creating content rather than developing technical
solutions but Im happy to chat about them.


On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:54, Oddity Medium  wrote:

> Dr Leudar, was your email directed at me? Re: "exactly the same idea"?
> If so, I'd like to discuss it more with you.
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Had exactly the same idea - there were some people at Hynunkooks
> conference
> > (WIMP) last year doing something similar.
> >
> > <
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > >
> > Virus-free.
> > www.avast.com
> > <
> >
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> > >
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:59, Oddity Medium 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple independent
> > > speakers as multichannels.
> > >
> > > Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
> > > speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
> > >
> > > So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four files
> > > playing across these four devices.
> > >
> > > Any tips on how to go about this?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges  >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > > > > files is to make them 5.1.
> > > >
> > > > I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite
> pf
> > > > programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
> > > > appropriate channel mask.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> > > > > to recognise 4.0?
> > > >
> > > > In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
> > > > all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
> > > > multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
> > > > appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
> > > > available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Paul Hodges
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Sursound mailing list
> > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > here,
> > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > > >
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> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > >
> >
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190111/b0916531/attachment.html
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > Company Number : NI635217
> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > Belfast BT88LL
> > www.magikdoor.net
> > +44(0)7555784775
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >
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> > >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[David Pickett]

This sounds like a very complicated way of going about things, 
particularly when one can get four signals from one laptop. You would 
need a four channel external D/A box -- possibly a Behrigner ADA8200, 
or similar to do so.


Ambisonics, even in one plane, assumes that the channels are at least 
the same in frequency response and phase. Even with larger speakers 
in boxes this is not an easy thing to achieve, though a reasonable 
match between speakers might be achieved if they are all of the same 
type that they sell for desktops. I bought a pair at the check out in 
Micro Center for about 8 bucks. No bass, but the cut off is probably 
the same in each channel!


David

At 18:29 11-01-19, you wrote:

--On 11 January 2019 14:58 +0100 Oddity Medium 
wrote:

> Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
> speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
>
> So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four
> files playing across these four devices.

I cannot imagine that it will be practical to get synchronisation
anywhere near what would be required for adequate results.

As an illustration, by chance earlier this week I found myself playing
a file from the same source (on my network, but via wi-fi) through two
devices (an iPhone and an Android tablet), and the audio was about
250ms out of sync - presumably because of the differing buffering built
in to these devices and their programs.

Paul

--
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Paul Hodges]

--On 11 January 2019 14:58 +0100 Oddity Medium 
wrote:

> Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
> speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
> 
> So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four
> files playing across these four devices.

I cannot imagine that it will be practical to get synchronisation
anywhere near what would be required for adequate results.

As an illustration, by chance earlier this week I found myself playing
a file from the same source (on my network, but via wi-fi) through two
devices (an iPhone and an Android tablet), and the audio was about
250ms out of sync - presumably because of the differing buffering built
in to these devices and their programs.

Paul

-- 
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 2019-01-11 à 8:58 a.m., Oddity Medium a écrit :

We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple independent
speakers as multichannels.

Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.

So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four files
playing across these four devices.

Any tips on how to go about this?


I guess this is for some artistic/collaborative performance.

So one of the device (laptop/phone) could be the master, and the others 
would follow orders. Intercommunication and synchronization between the 
devices is the key, and the more precise is the sync, the more difficult 
is the project. Without a better description of the project it's 
difficult to provide a useful advice, but "WebRTC" could be a good 
start. Good luck.


Marc


On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges 
wrote:


--On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:


I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
files is to make them 5.1.

I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
appropriate channel mask.



Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
to recognise 4.0?

In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.

Paul

--
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Oddity Medium]

Dr Leudar, was your email directed at me? Re: "exactly the same idea"?
If so, I'd like to discuss it more with you.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Had exactly the same idea - there were some people at Hynunkooks conference
> (WIMP) last year doing something similar.
>
> <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:59, Oddity Medium 
> wrote:
>
> > We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple independent
> > speakers as multichannels.
> >
> > Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
> > speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
> >
> > So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four files
> > playing across these four devices.
> >
> > Any tips on how to go about this?
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:
> > >
> > > > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > > > files is to make them 5.1.
> > >
> > > I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
> > > programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
> > > appropriate channel mask.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> > > > to recognise 4.0?
> > >
> > > In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
> > > all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
> > > multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
> > > appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
> > > available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul Hodges
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > >
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> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >
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> > >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Augustine Leudar]

Had exactly the same idea - there were some people at Hynunkooks conference
(WIMP) last year doing something similar.


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:59, Oddity Medium  wrote:

> We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple independent
> speakers as multichannels.
>
> Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
> speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.
>
> So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four files
> playing across these four devices.
>
> Any tips on how to go about this?
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges 
> wrote:
>
> > --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:
> >
> > > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > > files is to make them 5.1.
> >
> > I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
> > programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
> > appropriate channel mask.
> >
> >
> > > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> > > to recognise 4.0?
> >
> > In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
> > all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
> > multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
> > appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
> > available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --
> > Paul Hodges
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> -- next part --
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> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190111/b0916531/attachment.html
> >
> ___
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/930534953740795?view=permalink&id=1822239041237044


In the above Facebook link, discussion there is links to ffmpeg binaries to
use for aac encoding, also parameters needed for making 8 fullbandwidth
encoded channels.

Bevare of channel ordering, I guess the resulting order is LRC   as
standard instead of LCR in the first 3 channels.

Bosse



On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:54 Paul Hodges  --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:
>
> > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > files is to make them 5.1.
>
> I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
> programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
> appropriate channel mask.
>
>
> > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> > to recognise 4.0?
>
> In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
> all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
> multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
> appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
> available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> Paul Hodges
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Oddity Medium]

We're interested in making a website/app that uses multiple independent
speakers as multichannels.

Lets say you have two laptops and two phones, so you have four (mono)
speakers you can place around the house in a square or rectangle.

So to get quadraphonic sound we need an app that coordinates four files
playing across these four devices.

Any tips on how to go about this?

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Hodges 
wrote:

> --On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:
>
> > I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> > files is to make them 5.1.
>
> I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
> programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
> appropriate channel mask.
>
>
> > Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> > to recognise 4.0?
>
> In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
> all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
> multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
> appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
> available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> Paul Hodges
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Paul Hodges]

--On 10 January 2019 22:44 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:

> I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> files is to make them 5.1.

I use Wavelab, but that's expensive. Richard Dobson's MCTools suite pf
programs would enable one to remove the unneeded channels and set an
appropriate channel mask.


> Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> to recognise 4.0?

In Windows: IE, Edge, Firefox, Chrome, Opera.  The point is that they
all use the Windows default audio output, which can be set up to be
multichannel with a range of layouts - and Windows will do the most
appropriate mixing to match the channels between the input and the
available speakers.  Once set up it all just works.

Paul

-- 
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

If your take a look at www.ohti.xyz you can listen to  toa files played
back in chrome browsers.

The conversion is done in chrome or a some other brovsers.

The binaural conversion is done by Omnitone and JSAmbisonics.

Both projects can be found on github.

I have not done much more than taking their code and adapting it slightly
with new demo examples.

My  goal is to present an open solution with headtracker hw and player for
FOA,soa and toa Ambisonics.

If anyone has JavaScript expertise in creating media players and something
like 10 to 20 hours to offer we could be done.

Best Regards
Bo-Erik Sandholm

The so


Den tor 10 jan. 2019 22:45 skrev David Pickett :

> At 21:47 10-01-19, Paul wrote:
>
> >I replace a stereo file with a four-channel file (why waste bandwidth
> >on empty channels?).
>
> I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4
> files is to make them 5.1.
>
> >   My files are decoded to a square ("quad") speaker
> >layout, and play just fine in any browser on a system with correctly
> >set up multichannel audio.
>
> Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser
> to recognise 4.0?
>
> With 5.1 Firefox and Chrome need no setting up for 5.1, and I assume
> that non-technological people wanting to listen to the files would prefer
> that.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[David Pickett]

At 21:47 10-01-19, Paul wrote:


I replace a stereo file with a four-channel file (why waste bandwidth
on empty channels?).


I agree. But it seems that the only way I have of making aac mp4 
files is to make them 5.1.



  My files are decoded to a square ("quad") speaker
layout, and play just fine in any browser on a system with correctly
set up multichannel audio.


Which browsers have you tested, Paul? How does one set up a browser 
to recognise 4.0?


With 5.1 Firefox and Chrome need no setting up for 5.1, and I assume 
that non-technological people wanting to listen to the files would prefer that.


David


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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Paul Hodges]

--On 10 January 2019 18:20 +0100 David Pickett  wrote:

> I do not know whether one can upload multichannel sound files to
> Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc; but I have successfully mounted some
> experimental 4.0 mp4 files on my website.
> 
> They are not B-format, but are in 5.1 format 5.1: FL, FR, C, LFE, RL,
> RR, where the C and B channels are silent.

I also don't know about hosted streaming services - but I do know that
hosting my own files and playing them from my own web page using an
HTML5 widget (or a player that skins such a widget) works just fine if
I replace a stereo file with a four-channel file (why waste bandwidth
on empty channels?).  My files are decoded to a square ("quad") speaker
layout, and play just fine in any browser on a system with correctly
set up multichannel audio.

Paul

-- 
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[Oddity Medium]

Hello,

Brud , the art-entity I lead, is interested in this as
well. Our periphonic tape label Buio  releases
quadraphonic cassettes.
We are looking for a multichannel streaming service. We haven't found one
yet.
If there is sufficient interest in this we are keen on building one
ourselves.

If there is any prior work or if anyone is interested, do drop me a line.

Sincerely,
Brud

brud.xyz

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 4:57 PM aswath Prabhu  wrote:

> Good day to you all,
>
> I would like to know as to how to publish the audio that you make in
> ambisonics on the web.
>
> If i have a stereo file, its easy to upload to Soundcloud, Bandcamp etc.
> But am not really sure if there is any online player or player to embed in
> a website that can play B format WAV files.
>
> I guess for videos its only Youtube 360 or facebook. I mean, can i have
> surround sound audio in a video and upload it on any of the video sites
> like vimeo, dailymotion, youtube etc. when i mean surround, I mean using
> ambisonics!!
>
> Please advice.
>
> Thank you
>
> Aswath Prabhu
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[David Pickett]

Sorry, I sent the last message too soon.

The methods used to make the recordings is described. Three use my 
pantophonic microphone (native B format), and the others are panpotted.


The extracts are at https://www.fugato.com/pickett/surround-tests.shtml

David

At 16:57 10-01-19, you wrote:

Good day to you all,

I would like to know as to how to publish the audio that you make in 
ambisonics on the web.


If i have a stereo file, its easy to upload to Soundcloud, Bandcamp 
etc. But am not really sure if there is any online player or player 
to embed in a website that can play B format WAV files.


I guess for videos its only Youtube 360 or facebook. I mean, can i 
have surround sound audio in a video and upload it on any of the 
video sites like vimeo, dailymotion, youtube etc. when i mean 
surround, I mean using ambisonics!!


Please advice.

Thank you

Aswath Prabhu


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Re: [Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[David Pickett]

Aswath,

I do not know whether one can upload multichannel sound files to 
Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc; but I have successfully mounted some 
experimental 4.0 mp4 files on my website.


They are not B-format, but are in 5.1 format 5.1: FL, FR, C, LFE, RL, 
RR, where the C and B channels are silent.


www.fugato.com/pickett

David


At 16:57 10-01-19, you wrote:

Good day to you all,

I would like to know as to how to publish the audio that you make in 
ambisonics on the web.


If i have a stereo file, its easy to upload to Soundcloud, Bandcamp 
etc. But am not really sure if there is any online player or player 
to embed in a website that can play B format WAV files.


I guess for videos its only Youtube 360 or facebook. I mean, can i 
have surround sound audio in a video and upload it on any of the 
video sites like vimeo, dailymotion, youtube etc. when i mean 
surround, I mean using ambisonics!!


Please advice.

Thank you

Aswath Prabhu


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[Sursound] Publishing music in ambisonics

[aswath Prabhu]

Good day to you all,

I would like to know as to how to publish the audio that you make in ambisonics 
on the web.

If i have a stereo file, its easy to upload to Soundcloud, Bandcamp etc. But am 
not really sure if there is any online player or player to embed in a website 
that can play B format WAV files.

I guess for videos its only Youtube 360 or facebook. I mean, can i have 
surround sound audio in a video and upload it on any of the video sites like 
vimeo, dailymotion, youtube etc. when i mean surround, I mean using ambisonics!!

Please advice.

Thank you

Aswath Prabhu


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