Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Hi Etienne O This is similar problem Ive always had with SoundofSpace AAC files which use the CLRLsRsLFE order but again I can use the Quad playback to fix the order. Id much prefer the ITU spec of LRCLFELsRs as that seems to be a sort of common standard I understand that AC3 and AAC have different channel orders by definition. I'm pretty sure soundOfSpace does it correctly (for both). Are you talking about Firefox in OSX with a VLC plugin? ... or are you talking about Safari playing AAC natively? I hadnt spotted a firefox vlc plugin so am using browsers natively - and they seem to follow my general audio prefs - having said that and upgrading firefox to v8 now i cant play my own ref movies at all - eek but it acts the same as v3.5. Chrome I did try and it continually asks for plugins and shows me to too many google links for my liking. The first aac file order spec seems to be what soundofspace uses but I found much discussion online of using the more standard layout. AC3 has to be as is because external devices are all set the same It is ... I think what is needed is a table that identifies which 5.1 format for which browser for which OS for which stereo decode is best. Then I'll implement that (and others can implement that) and so people could say works with Chrome 10.1 + on windows, or etc. Etienne I'll have another look at the browsers as I need to get Firefox working again and try a windows machine as Ive got some tests to do for binaural mick -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/20111205/8d11d81a/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
But in a sense it's a valid question at another level. Does HTML5 (in its various forms, mostly H.264 i.e. AAC) reliably fall back to something usable when you broadcast multichannel material? If it does not, what's the use of it? If it does, does it always do so, reliably? If it does but not always, when precisely does it sound right even in mono, stereo, 5.1, in which setups?... maybe it needs a table ... any volunteers? For me, none of Etienne's files produce any sound, even if they play just fine otherwise. My setup is a laptop with mere stereo, over the newest version of XP, utilizing both the newest versions of VLC and WinAmp for playback. but what's your browser? That's kinda the point with HTML5 takes the responsibility away from plugins. Its about how up-to-date your browser is ... not the plugins. I'd be very interested in what results you get with IE9 ... which supports AAC but not sure about multi-channel ones. Etienne -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20111205/d772fd2f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Hi Mick, Thanks for the feedback ... very helpful. This is similar problem Ive always had with SoundofSpace AAC files which use the CLRLsRsLFE order but again I can use the Quad playback to fix the order. Id much prefer the ITU spec of LRCLFELsRs as that seems to be a sort of common standard I understand that AC3 and AAC have different channel orders by definition. I'm pretty sure soundOfSpace does it correctly (for both). Are you talking about Firefox in OSX with a VLC plugin? ... or are you talking about Safari playing AAC natively? On the main site Ive never been able to get a player to load with the AC3 play now option though I can download them and play back dolby digital in VLC and quicktime through my Yamaha home decoder. yes ... this is a bug with Apple. It was logged many years ago ... Quicktime has the capacity to stream AC3 directly to the hardware decoder *except* when it is embedded in the browser. Apple says this is not a bug. Its possible to get it working through a plugin called Perian, but then the entire file needs to be downloaded ... so it's not exactly streaming. The Perian people have told me this just needs to be developed and said open-source was all about people contributing their own code. I've been meaning to remove that option for a while because it is mostly useless. (which is why I thought I'd see what HTML5 can do first). Using VLC is easily the best because it has its own encoded stereo option which saves changing overall options and I can it triggers the yamaha recieving it. Quicktime does work though but only if you go into the terminal and set up ac3 passthrough?? hence I use VLC for AC3. AC3 in OSX appears to always download rather than just playthrough - it will open and play in VLC but only after downloading as well. My use of AC3's has been mainly dvds for film or straight audio for multispeaker installs ignoring 5.1 - there is an answer to the download issue as you can save a vlc playlist and post as an m3u containing the urls to avoid ac3 downloads though ive only just tried that out. So I dont see a particular browser problem though we are dealing with computer and receiver set ups - I originally wanted to be able to stream 4 channel files into soundflower without any need - for people to reset or guess channel order and with Ogg files the computer tended to mess with the order but when I used a QTreference file as the link the channel order was not messed with anymore - this was only tested in OSX and XP at the time hope this is of help to someone - It is ... I think what is needed is a table that identifies which 5.1 format for which browser for which OS for which stereo decode is best. Then I'll implement that (and others can implement that) and so people could say works with Chrome 10.1 + on windows, or etc. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20111205/8d11d81a/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
There is a plugin for Firefox called firebug - it might show you the file being requested by the browser. Ian -Original Message- From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of etienne deleflie Sent: 01 December 2011 22:41 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test Hi Mick, If you are talking about this page: http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html then all feeds are 5.1 if you are hearing stereo it is your browser that has decided to interpret the 5.1 feed as stereo. Any settings for that would be browser side. But to find out which of the three files the browser has chosen to use is difficult. On Firefox 8, I can right click on the player and do 'copy audio location' (the file is the ogg one). This doesn't work on Safari... not sure about Explorer good question though there must be a way. Etienne On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 9:14 PM, mick ritchie m...@superorg.com wrote: Etienne - I can play back stereo from your player in firefox3 and Safari but not 5.1 - my 5.1 box doesnt see dolby digital just stereo. Is there any way of telling which feed my browser accesses? mick On 29 Nov 2011, at 23:51, etienne deleflie wrote: Hi Fabio, Worked fine with Safari and Mac OSX. I tried using jack. It immediately showed the 6 channel web process in the routing window! Also without jack it directly played back. Could you give some background on the HTML5 implementation or on how you realized this? its simple. One of HTML5's advantages is that it is the browser that supplies the media players. This means less need for 3rd party media players like Flash / Quicktime / VLC etc. That means less barriers to entry .. which means there is a growing chance that more people will 'just hear' 5.1 coming out of their connected speakers (if they have them connected to a 5.1 card). Here is what the HTML5 code looks like (audio is an HTML5 tag): audio controls=controls source src=someAACFile.m4atype=audio/mp4 / source src=someVorbisFile.ogg type=audio/ogg / source src=someAC3File.ac3type=audio/ac3 / Looks like your browser does not support HTML 5. Non HTML5 code would go here. Perhaps a quicktime plugin for the old browsers. /audio The browser chooses whichever one it can play, and supplies the media player. And that seems to be: IE9 + : AAC Safari: AAC Chrome: AAC / Vorbis Firefox 8+: none of them, but if you have VLC installed it will have a go at OGG and perhaps AC3 opened in VLC. It is Firefox that fails us here. Firefox can play Vorbis files, but not multichannel ones. Etienne Regards Fabio Am 27.11.2011 um 05:08 schrieb etienne deleflie: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/**static/test_html5.htmlhttp://soundofspac e.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/**attachment.htmlhttps://mail.music.v t.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachm ent.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail. music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.m usic.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2030/ac4977c0/**attachment.htmlhttps://mail.music.vt .edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2030/ac4977c0/attachmen t.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.mu sic.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.mus
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Thanks for helps - I could see I was accessing the ogg version in my browsers and when I set my speaker config correctly I can get multichanel audio from the html5 page no problem. Well there is a problem and that is the file order - with a 5.1 config set in OSX im seeing a LCRLsRsLFE playback but im not able to save this as a config and to add to that Quicktime and VLC only play out tracks 12 and 5 - but I can change to quad playback and then all 4 tracks are routed correctly. This is similar problem Ive always had with SoundofSpace AAC files which use the CLRLsRsLFE order but again I can use the Quad playback to fix the order. Id much prefer the ITU spec of LRCLFELsRs as that seems to be a sort of common standard On the main site Ive never been able to get a player to load with the AC3 play now option though I can download them and play back dolby digital in VLC and quicktime through my Yamaha home decoder. Using VLC is easily the best because it has its own encoded stereo option which saves changing overall options and I can it triggers the yamaha recieving it. Quicktime does work though but only if you go into the terminal and set up ac3 passthrough?? hence I use VLC for AC3. AC3 in OSX appears to always download rather than just playthrough - it will open and play in VLC but only after downloading as well. My use of AC3's has been mainly dvds for film or straight audio for multispeaker installs ignoring 5.1 - there is an answer to the download issue as you can save a vlc playlist and post as an m3u containing the urls to avoid ac3 downloads though ive only just tried that out. So I dont see a particular browser problem though we are dealing with computer and receiver set ups - I originally wanted to be able to stream 4 channel files into soundflower without any need - for people to reset or guess channel order and with Ogg files the computer tended to mess with the order but when I used a QTreference file as the link the channel order was not messed with anymore - this was only tested in OSX and XP at the time hope this is of help to someone - mick On 1 Dec 2011, at 22:40, etienne deleflie wrote: Hi Mick, If you are talking about this page: http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html then all feeds are 5.1 if you are hearing stereo it is your browser that has decided to interpret the 5.1 feed as stereo. Any settings for that would be browser side. But to find out which of the three files the browser has chosen to use is difficult. On Firefox 8, I can right click on the player and do 'copy audio location' (the file is the ogg one). This doesn't work on Safari... not sure about Explorer good question though there must be a way. Etienne On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 9:14 PM, mick ritchie m...@superorg.com wrote: Etienne - I can play back stereo from your player in firefox3 and Safari but not 5.1 - my 5.1 box doesnt see dolby digital just stereo. Is there any way of telling which feed my browser accesses? mick ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
Marinos - I havent a clue what a nitrate is but maybe kbs and i seem to remember my options in Apack being limited so i just went for the highest as ac3's are small On 29 Nov 2011, at 21:13, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: thx Mick I think I' ll go down the ac3 road - not shire however what nitrate to use.. would sth like 640 for a 4-channel file be ok ?? thx m On 29 Nov 2011, at 21:48, mick ritchie wrote: Hi marinos i missed the bginning of the debate but I went down this road 3 years ago to stream bformat files For your requirements with 4 channels of discrete speaker files I think ac3 is by far the most accessible to anybody who has no 4 channel sound card - a digital link between computer and home ents system and you have 4 speaker playback without any tweaking. Go for the highest spec as they are a bit limp and I remember adding 2 channels of audio silence to ensure all players see the same thing - also some players like vlc need a good one second start before theyve communicated youre in dolby digital to the decoder and you can miss the first note. For streaming with bformat or 4 channel files I found ogg files to be the best quality and I also had grief with VLC - first they worked then after a week they crashed VLC over and over again - I just tried a couple of them and now VLC doesnt read them at all - something about XoX files not being good whatever that means. I just looked online for any developments and came across many problems including my 2008 request that went unanswered. What I did find though was that by making a QTmovie ref file to the ogg file I could then stream in QTPlayer and Itunes(which doesnt accept Ogg) that was what i used. The QTref file allows you to ensure the correct track allocation which ther Ogg alone wouldnt do. I didnt have time to test with all players and just recommended Quicktime which most PC users have Now I can stream a 4 channel FLAC up to a point but FLAC was my preference for download - this was fine in VLC and easily streamed through a bformat decoder. AAC looks interesting now and ive got some binaural experiments to do this week and will try it for some 4 channel while im at it. I use audacity to make my multi track files best mick On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:18, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: thus far: - I tried ac3 and it seems ok to me - VLC can playback with no problems - I haven' t yet managed to encode to AAC - I get an error that libfaac is missing when using ffmpeg and audacity refuses to find the proper library - still looking for some other encoder - I easily encoded to flac with sox but the size is huge and thus totally inadequate for my purposes - ogg vorbis encode fine with sox but VLC crashes.. so 2 questions: 1. what are the right settings for a HQ quad ac3 ?? I used 44.100 and 192k which sounds ok - but then I don' t have very good speakers to be sure - let aside the file is pretty small which means I can afford higher nitrates 2. What' s the verdict of an aac vs ac3 comparison ??? On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:12, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: oh yeah I did encode them and they did seem file - but I could not play back them.. it was pretty easy to encode actually.. I google it a bit and there are a couple of bug reports about ogg +video problems - so there seems to be some problem m On 28 Nov 2011, at 23:01, Eero Aro wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, Hmm. I have used the encoder in the past and it worked ok and the files played fine. Sorry, but can't remember if I had any troubles in using the encoder. It could have been possible that I had to to rename the two stereo files in the same way as the Zoom H2 names them. Did the software encode your files anyway? Did you get to that point? Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/2029/42cabc6f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/2029/ae7ede95/attachment.html
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Etienne - I can play back stereo from your player in firefox3 and Safari but not 5.1 - my 5.1 box doesnt see dolby digital just stereo. Is there any way of telling which feed my browser accesses? mick On 29 Nov 2011, at 23:51, etienne deleflie wrote: Hi Fabio, Worked fine with Safari and Mac OSX. I tried using jack. It immediately showed the 6 channel web process in the routing window! Also without jack it directly played back. Could you give some background on the HTML5 implementation or on how you realized this? its simple. One of HTML5's advantages is that it is the browser that supplies the media players. This means less need for 3rd party media players like Flash / Quicktime / VLC etc. That means less barriers to entry .. which means there is a growing chance that more people will 'just hear' 5.1 coming out of their connected speakers (if they have them connected to a 5.1 card). Here is what the HTML5 code looks like (audio is an HTML5 tag): audio controls=controls source src=someAACFile.m4atype=audio/mp4 / source src=someVorbisFile.ogg type=audio/ogg / source src=someAC3File.ac3type=audio/ac3 / Looks like your browser does not support HTML 5. Non HTML5 code would go here. Perhaps a quicktime plugin for the old browsers. /audio The browser chooses whichever one it can play, and supplies the media player. And that seems to be: IE9 + : AAC Safari: AAC Chrome: AAC / Vorbis Firefox 8+: none of them, but if you have VLC installed it will have a go at OGG and perhaps AC3 opened in VLC. It is Firefox that fails us here. Firefox can play Vorbis files, but not multichannel ones. Etienne Regards Fabio Am 27.11.2011 um 05:08 schrieb etienne deleflie: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/ 2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/2030/ac4977c0/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
mick ritchie m...@superorg.com wrote: Etienne - I can play back stereo from your player in firefox3 and Safari but not 5.1 - my 5.1 box doesnt see dolby digital just stereo. Is there any way of telling which feed my browser accesses? You could try using your own HTML5 page to offer one option at a time. If two of the three don't work then you will know. Here is the snippet of HTML5 code that Etienne posted: Here is what the HTML5 code looks like (audio is an HTML5 tag): audio controls=controls source src=someAACFile.m4atype=audio/mp4 / source src=someVorbisFile.ogg type=audio/ogg / source src=someAC3File.ac3type=audio/ac3 / Looks like your browser does not support HTML 5. Non HTML5 code would go here. Perhaps a quicktime plugin for the old browsers. /audio Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
On 2011-12-01, Martin Leese wrote: You could try using your own HTML5 page to offer one option at a time. If two of the three don't work then you will know. But in a sense it's a valid question at another level. Does HTML5 (in its various forms, mostly H.264 i.e. AAC) reliably fall back to something usable when you broadcast multichannel material? If it does not, what's the use of it? If it does, does it always do so, reliably? If it does but not always, when precisely does it sound right even in mono, stereo, 5.1, in which setups?... For me, none of Etienne's files produce any sound, even if they play just fine otherwise. My setup is a laptop with mere stereo, over the newest version of XP, utilizing both the newest versions of VLC and WinAmp for playback. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
Hi marinos i missed the bginning of the debate but I went down this road 3 years ago to stream bformat files For your requirements with 4 channels of discrete speaker files I think ac3 is by far the most accessible to anybody who has no 4 channel sound card - a digital link between computer and home ents system and you have 4 speaker playback without any tweaking. Go for the highest spec as they are a bit limp and I remember adding 2 channels of audio silence to ensure all players see the same thing - also some players like vlc need a good one second start before theyve communicated youre in dolby digital to the decoder and you can miss the first note. For streaming with bformat or 4 channel files I found ogg files to be the best quality and I also had grief with VLC - first they worked then after a week they crashed VLC over and over again - I just tried a couple of them and now VLC doesnt read them at all - something about XoX files not being good whatever that means. I just looked online for any developments and came across many problems including my 2008 request that went unanswered. What I did find though was that by making a QTmovie ref file to the ogg file I could then stream in QTPlayer and Itunes(which doesnt accept Ogg) that was what i used. The QTref file allows you to ensure the correct track allocation which ther Ogg alone wouldnt do. I didnt have time to test with all players and just recommended Quicktime which most PC users have Now I can stream a 4 channel FLAC up to a point but FLAC was my preference for download - this was fine in VLC and easily streamed through a bformat decoder. AAC looks interesting now and ive got some binaural experiments to do this week and will try it for some 4 channel while im at it. I use audacity to make my multi track files best mick On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:18, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: thus far: - I tried ac3 and it seems ok to me - VLC can playback with no problems - I haven' t yet managed to encode to AAC - I get an error that libfaac is missing when using ffmpeg and audacity refuses to find the proper library - still looking for some other encoder - I easily encoded to flac with sox but the size is huge and thus totally inadequate for my purposes - ogg vorbis encode fine with sox but VLC crashes.. so 2 questions: 1. what are the right settings for a HQ quad ac3 ?? I used 44.100 and 192k which sounds ok - but then I don' t have very good speakers to be sure - let aside the file is pretty small which means I can afford higher nitrates 2. What' s the verdict of an aac vs ac3 comparison ??? On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:12, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: oh yeah I did encode them and they did seem file - but I could not play back them.. it was pretty easy to encode actually.. I google it a bit and there are a couple of bug reports about ogg +video problems - so there seems to be some problem m On 28 Nov 2011, at 23:01, Eero Aro wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, Hmm. I have used the encoder in the past and it worked ok and the files played fine. Sorry, but can't remember if I had any troubles in using the encoder. It could have been possible that I had to to rename the two stereo files in the same way as the Zoom H2 names them. Did the software encode your files anyway? Did you get to that point? Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/2029/42cabc6f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/2029/ae7ede95/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
thx Mick I think I' ll go down the ac3 road - not shire however what nitrate to use.. would sth like 640 for a 4-channel file be ok ?? thx m On 29 Nov 2011, at 21:48, mick ritchie wrote: Hi marinos i missed the bginning of the debate but I went down this road 3 years ago to stream bformat files For your requirements with 4 channels of discrete speaker files I think ac3 is by far the most accessible to anybody who has no 4 channel sound card - a digital link between computer and home ents system and you have 4 speaker playback without any tweaking. Go for the highest spec as they are a bit limp and I remember adding 2 channels of audio silence to ensure all players see the same thing - also some players like vlc need a good one second start before theyve communicated youre in dolby digital to the decoder and you can miss the first note. For streaming with bformat or 4 channel files I found ogg files to be the best quality and I also had grief with VLC - first they worked then after a week they crashed VLC over and over again - I just tried a couple of them and now VLC doesnt read them at all - something about XoX files not being good whatever that means. I just looked online for any developments and came across many problems including my 2008 request that went unanswered. What I did find though was that by making a QTmovie ref file to the ogg file I could then stream in QTPlayer and Itunes(which doesnt accept Ogg) that was what i used. The QTref file allows you to ensure the correct track allocation which ther Ogg alone wouldnt do. I didnt have time to test with all players and just recommended Quicktime which most PC users have Now I can stream a 4 channel FLAC up to a point but FLAC was my preference for download - this was fine in VLC and easily streamed through a bformat decoder. AAC looks interesting now and ive got some binaural experiments to do this week and will try it for some 4 channel while im at it. I use audacity to make my multi track files best mick On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:18, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: thus far: - I tried ac3 and it seems ok to me - VLC can playback with no problems - I haven' t yet managed to encode to AAC - I get an error that libfaac is missing when using ffmpeg and audacity refuses to find the proper library - still looking for some other encoder - I easily encoded to flac with sox but the size is huge and thus totally inadequate for my purposes - ogg vorbis encode fine with sox but VLC crashes.. so 2 questions: 1. what are the right settings for a HQ quad ac3 ?? I used 44.100 and 192k which sounds ok - but then I don' t have very good speakers to be sure - let aside the file is pretty small which means I can afford higher nitrates 2. What' s the verdict of an aac vs ac3 comparison ??? On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:12, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: oh yeah I did encode them and they did seem file - but I could not play back them.. it was pretty easy to encode actually.. I google it a bit and there are a couple of bug reports about ogg+video problems - so there seems to be some problem m On 28 Nov 2011, at 23:01, Eero Aro wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, Hmm. I have used the encoder in the past and it worked ok and the files played fine. Sorry, but can't remember if I had any troubles in using the encoder. It could have been possible that I had to to rename the two stereo files in the same way as the Zoom H2 names them. Did the software encode your files anyway? Did you get to that point? Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2029/42cabc6f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2029/ae7ede95/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 2011-11-28, John Leonard wrote: So it does! DTS file in VLC, Metric Halo 2882 (or WHY) and streaming surround direct form the laptop! Excellent - thanks, Richard. You don't argue with empirical facts, then. Most of the time... -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Hi Fabio, Worked fine with Safari and Mac OSX. I tried using jack. It immediately showed the 6 channel web process in the routing window! Also without jack it directly played back. Could you give some background on the HTML5 implementation or on how you realized this? its simple. One of HTML5's advantages is that it is the browser that supplies the media players. This means less need for 3rd party media players like Flash / Quicktime / VLC etc. That means less barriers to entry .. which means there is a growing chance that more people will 'just hear' 5.1 coming out of their connected speakers (if they have them connected to a 5.1 card). Here is what the HTML5 code looks like (audio is an HTML5 tag): audio controls=controls source src=someAACFile.m4atype=audio/mp4 / source src=someVorbisFile.ogg type=audio/ogg / source src=someAC3File.ac3type=audio/ac3 / Looks like your browser does not support HTML 5. Non HTML5 code would go here. Perhaps a quicktime plugin for the old browsers. /audio The browser chooses whichever one it can play, and supplies the media player. And that seems to be: IE9 + : AAC Safari: AAC Chrome: AAC / Vorbis Firefox 8+: none of them, but if you have VLC installed it will have a go at OGG and perhaps AC3 opened in VLC. It is Firefox that fails us here. Firefox can play Vorbis files, but not multichannel ones. Etienne Regards Fabio Am 27.11.2011 um 05:08 schrieb etienne deleflie: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2030/ac4977c0/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:51 PM, etienne deleflie edelef...@gmail.com wrote: It is Firefox that fails us here. Firefox can play Vorbis files, but not multichannel ones. People following this subject may be interested in this Mozilla bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=521615 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Worked fine with Safari and Mac OSX. I tried using jack. It immediately showed the 6 channel web process in the routing window! Also without jack it directly played back. Could you give some background on the HTML5 implementation or on how you realized this? Regards Fabio Am 27.11.2011 um 05:08 schrieb etienne deleflie: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, I' m still experimenting with the rest options On 28 Nov 2011, at 20:29, Eero Aro wrote: Vortex Zoom Encoder -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2028/4d24f6d5/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, Hmm. I have used the encoder in the past and it worked ok and the files played fine. Sorry, but can't remember if I had any troubles in using the encoder. It could have been possible that I had to to rename the two stereo files in the same way as the Zoom H2 names them. Did the software encode your files anyway? Did you get to that point? Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
oh yeah I did encode them and they did seem file - but I could not play back them.. it was pretty easy to encode actually.. I google it a bit and there are a couple of bug reports about ogg+video problems - so there seems to be some problem m On 28 Nov 2011, at 23:01, Eero Aro wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, Hmm. I have used the encoder in the past and it worked ok and the files played fine. Sorry, but can't remember if I had any troubles in using the encoder. It could have been possible that I had to to rename the two stereo files in the same way as the Zoom H2 names them. Did the software encode your files anyway? Did you get to that point? Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2029/42cabc6f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
thus far: - I tried ac3 and it seems ok to me - VLC can playback with no problems - I haven' t yet managed to encode to AAC - I get an error that libfaac is missing when using ffmpeg and audacity refuses to find the proper library - still looking for some other encoder - I easily encoded to flac with sox but the size is huge and thus totally inadequate for my purposes - ogg vorbis encode fine with sox but VLC crashes.. so 2 questions: 1. what are the right settings for a HQ quad ac3 ?? I used 44.100 and 192k which sounds ok - but then I don' t have very good speakers to be sure - let aside the file is pretty small which means I can afford higher nitrates 2. What' s the verdict of an aac vs ac3 comparison ??? On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:12, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: oh yeah I did encode them and they did seem file - but I could not play back them.. it was pretty easy to encode actually.. I google it a bit and there are a couple of bug reports about ogg+video problems - so there seems to be some problem m On 28 Nov 2011, at 23:01, Eero Aro wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: I tried encoding to 4 channel ogg via both sox and audacity and VLC crashes when I try to playback for some reason, Hmm. I have used the encoder in the past and it worked ok and the files played fine. Sorry, but can't remember if I had any troubles in using the encoder. It could have been possible that I had to to rename the two stereo files in the same way as the Zoom H2 names them. Did the software encode your files anyway? Did you get to that point? Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2029/42cabc6f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2029/ae7ede95/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Bill, I was expecting that Firefox would not attempt to play the file at all ... strange that it attempts to play the file at all. What happens if you go to this URL in firefox: http://audio.soundofspace.com/ajh/eight-directions.ac3 Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Bill de Garis d...@dgvo.net wrote: Latest version of Firefox (8.0) on Win7 64bit. Alls I get it the spinning dots when I press play. Nothing else. No sound. Bill On 26/11/11 8:08 p.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/**static/test_html5.htmlhttp://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.**edu/mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/**attachment.htmlhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/b3574e64/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
I don't understand the long discussion on this list. quad surround is a standard supported by many audio codecs. mp3 is not an option, even mp3 surround is not discrete 5.1. the most common formats for multi-channel audio are aac, ogg/vorbis and flac. the default aac mapping for 4 channels is not quad, but center, left, right, rear surround, but there should be ways to define it as quadraphonic. in flac and ogg/vorbis a 4 channel file is defined as quadraphonic with the channel mapping front left, front right, rear left, rear right. I don't know how good the support for quad playback in the most common media players is, but there are not much options besides aac, vorbis and flac that are commonly supported. 11/25/11, Marinos Koutsomichalis mari...@agxivatein.com wrote: Hello list, I was asked a 4-channel work for an online-release - I' m now trying to figure out what the best way to release it would be.. I am totally inexperienced in web-friendly file formats for such things.. afaic - I could use mp3-surround - but it' s only 5.1 and this could possibly cause problems - I could use flac - but I' m not sure if common media-players support it - I could try some video format (?) are there any other ideas/observations/advices ?? what is paramount is that the casual listener can listen to the 4-channel mix without having to download nothing or in the worst scenario to download some specialized media-player which is flexible/easy to find and free. maybe there is specialized file-format/media-player or some lossy ambisonics formats for such things ?? -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2025/08bfe1b1/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
I don't see the player in webos, because the browser doesn't show any default controls (but audio and video with custom controls work). my tablet wouldn't play surround sound, but I was interested if it plays embedded 5.1 files at all. you can offer multiple formats in an audio or video tag. see https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_audio_and_video_in_Firefox 11/27/11, etienne deleflie edelef...@gmail.com wrote: I've now replaced the AC3 with a 5.1 Ogg Vorbis file. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html Firefox now reads it. Unfortunately, Firefox apparently cant play 5.1 files ... so it just plays the first two channels. Rather disappointing ... especially given that Chrome seems to be able to play the 5.1 Ogg file just fine. Here's the Firefox Bugzilla report (lodged in 2009) about firefox not being able to play 5.1 Vorbis files: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=521615 So the best bet is just AAC. Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM, etienne deleflie edelef...@gmail.comwrote: Bill, I was expecting that Firefox would not attempt to play the file at all ... strange that it attempts to play the file at all. What happens if you go to this URL in firefox: http://audio.soundofspace.com/ajh/eight-directions.ac3 Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Bill de Garis d...@dgvo.net wrote: Latest version of Firefox (8.0) on Win7 64bit. Alls I get it the spinning dots when I press play. Nothing else. No sound. Bill On 26/11/11 8:08 p.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/**static/test_html5.htmlhttp://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.**edu/mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/**attachment.htmlhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/a6c22975/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Ahh! That's nice! It asks if I want to play with VLC and then it sounds very nice even in stereo (which is all I have on my pc). I actually get a strong sense out to about 180 deg either side of me whereas my (cheap studio reference) monitors are either side of my screen. (all the physical space I have). About 70 deg apart. Bill On 27/11/11 12:43 a.m., etienne deleflie wrote: Bill, I was expecting that Firefox would not attempt to play the file at all ... strange that it attempts to play the file at all. What happens if you go to this URL in firefox: http://audio.soundofspace.com/ajh/eight-directions.ac3 Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Bill de Garisd...@dgvo.net wrote: Latest version of Firefox (8.0) on Win7 64bit. Alls I get it the spinning dots when I press play. Nothing else. No sound. Bill On 26/11/11 8:08 p.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/**static/test_html5.htmlhttp://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.**edu/mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/**attachment.htmlhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/b3574e64/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Well it's an improvement of sorts... It opens the player, downloads and begins to play the file, then plays to the end. (Streams fine) Just one problem, heh, no sound! Bill On 27/11/11 2:20 a.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've now replaced the AC3 with a 5.1 Ogg Vorbis file. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Oliver Oli oliver.oli+0...@gmail.comwrote: I don't see the player in webos, because the browser doesn't show any default controls (but audio and video with custom controls work). my tablet wouldn't play surround sound, but I was interested if it plays embedded 5.1 files at all. you can offer multiple formats in an audio or video tag. if you do a 'view source' you'll see that I'm offering 3 formats ... AAC, AC3 and Vorbis Etienne see https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_audio_and_video_in_Firefox 11/27/11, etienne deleflie edelef...@gmail.com wrote: I've now replaced the AC3 with a 5.1 Ogg Vorbis file. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html Firefox now reads it. Unfortunately, Firefox apparently cant play 5.1 files ... so it just plays the first two channels. Rather disappointing ... especially given that Chrome seems to be able to play the 5.1 Ogg file just fine. Here's the Firefox Bugzilla report (lodged in 2009) about firefox not being able to play 5.1 Vorbis files: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=521615 So the best bet is just AAC. Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM, etienne deleflie edelef...@gmail.comwrote: Bill, I was expecting that Firefox would not attempt to play the file at all ... strange that it attempts to play the file at all. What happens if you go to this URL in firefox: http://audio.soundofspace.com/ajh/eight-directions.ac3 Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Bill de Garis d...@dgvo.net wrote: Latest version of Firefox (8.0) on Win7 64bit. Alls I get it the spinning dots when I press play. Nothing else. No sound. Bill On 26/11/11 8:08 p.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/**static/test_html5.html http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.**edu/mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/**attachment.html https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/a6c22975/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2028/6e6b2cc3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:18 AM, Bill de Garis d...@dgvo.net wrote: Ahh! That's nice! It asks if I want to play with VLC and then it sounds very nice even in stereo (which is all I have on my pc). ah ok ... so it is worth including Vorbis then. Etienne I actually get a strong sense out to about 180 deg either side of me whereas my (cheap studio reference) monitors are either side of my screen. (all the physical space I have). About 70 deg apart. Bill On 27/11/11 12:43 a.m., etienne deleflie wrote: Bill, I was expecting that Firefox would not attempt to play the file at all ... strange that it attempts to play the file at all. What happens if you go to this URL in firefox: http://audio.soundofspace.com/**ajh/eight-directions.ac3http://audio.soundofspace.com/ajh/eight-directions.ac3 Etienne On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Bill de Garisd...@dgvo.net wrote: Latest version of Firefox (8.0) on Win7 64bit. Alls I get it the spinning dots when I press play. Nothing else. No sound. Bill On 26/11/11 8:08 p.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.htmlhttp://soundofspace.com/**static/test_html5.html http://**soundofspace.com/static/test_**html5.htmlhttp://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.htmlhttps://** mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/**private/sursound/attachments/** 2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.**htmlhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound http**s://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/**listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound http**s://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/**listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.**edu/mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/2027/b3574e64/**attachment.htmlhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/b3574e64/attachment.html __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2028/0ceafab2/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 27/11/2011 00:31, Sampo Syreeni wrote: I'd say one of the AAC profiles would still be preferrable, because it's eminently better as a codec, at least as well-supported by now especially in the online world, and probably more future-proof, having been adopted by big players like Apple. AAC is certainly an excellent codec; but can you easily play back a quad file...? I really don't know. I DO know VLC plays DTS straight out of the box. re licensing, you buy the encoding app and you're done. Again, with AAC I don't know. So there's the simple, known-to-work; and the possibly-better, possibly-not, unknown. Your choice. --R ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
AAC is certainly an excellent codec; but can you easily play back a quad file...? I really don't know. I DO know VLC plays DTS straight out of the box. The only issue with DTS files is that they are large ... and so not so good for online distribution. An advantage you get with DTS files is you can burn Audio CDs that are readily decodable by most DVD players I think VLC will play almost all of the well known 5.1-ish formats ... but it has to be downloaded and installed. AAC is supported in both the main OSes bundled browser Safari and IE9 + ... its easy to route channels to a soundcard in OSX ... but I'm not so sure about Windows + IE9 routing multi-channel AAC to a soundcard ... that's what I would like to hear about. Etienne re licensing, you buy the encoding app and you're done. Again, with AAC I don't know. So there's the simple, known-to-work; and the possibly-better, possibly-not, unknown. Your choice. --R __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2028/d0ddba3f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 26 Nov 2011, at 06:14, Sampo Syreeni wrote: I'm pretty sure we can tell you what to do with your channels. But first you have to tell us what that data is about, in all. How was it captured? What do you really want to do with it? from a previous post of mine: about the 4 channels: they are 4 channels of audio to be played back by a quad set-up.. In fact they are decoded from a b-format recording, but what I want to release is a quad version of the piece. as I said - it is just a four channel piece.. m -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2026/4e2169b8/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 26/11/2011 05:07, Sampo Syreeni wrote: .. As I said this may be the 'true way', but basically, IMO, it's yet another attempt by Apple to create yet another format 'the other lot can't read'. Fully agreed. Though then you'd have to agree it's a neat format per se. Well-thought out, as clean as de novo ones come, and perhaps the only new one which includes at least some support for ambisonic. It might be that we're a bit partial here, being that many around here like ambisonic. But you too have to admit it's a neat de novo design. Of course it only works for Apple, as an ecosystem. That's why nobody here really bets their livelihood on it. Just look at the logs and be assured of that. :) The CAF format is published, and is implemented in libsndfile. So any FOSS software linking with libsndfile automatically has, in principle, support for the CAF format. Possibly not fully comprehensively, but the trick is usually to ask Eric de Castro Lopo to add whatever you want. With 1001 variations on file formats floating around, he tends to prioritise what people actually say they need. There is nothing to stop third party developers (say, on Windoze) providing support for CAF files if they consider it important to do so, or if their customers ask for it in sufficient numbers to justify the man-hours. It would not surprise me at all if the Quicktime player on Windoze could read a CAF file, thought I have not got around yet to finding out, as I hardly use the PC for audio work at all these days. The general point is quite simple - the vast majority of soundfiles winging around the net are relatively short, and easily contained within the WAVE or AIFF formats people already understand, and have lesser or greater allegiance to. Ostensibly the only technical benefit given by CAF files is for huge files 4GB, and the chances are that few files of that size will be posted online, and fewer actually downloaded. The other reason is trivial - Apple is now on little-endian processors, so AIFF is less appropriate as a container. Reading one or two is no problem; reading 100s or 1000s of them involves a ~serious ~ amount of byte-swapping. Add to that the myth that CAF is a closed format, and the rest becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; Windoze developers and users will simply assume it is not viable for them. Note that it is perfectly easy to add 1001 speaker position IDs to a file format; not quite so obvious how to handle them in a playback application on a system that likely does not have speakers in all those positions ready and waiting. Someone can write the ultimate catch-all position-remapping code to route whatever arcane combination of speaker positions are specified to whatever other arcane layout the particular user has, if they have the time and the inclination. Could be a nice little research project; but testing it could be interesting. I see two choices - either you pre-map your sounds to the speaker and delivery layouts that already exist in the consumer universe, or you manage to define the layout you really want as a new standard which will magically be adopted by both manufacturers and consumers within your lifetime. The price of insisting on maximum generality and flexibility is that such a standard and level of adoption is unlikely ever to happen. This is of course exactly the problem Ambisonics sought to solve, but at the price of requiring decoding at the destination. But the same issue applies - the more general and flexible and specify-every-possible-option the spec is, the less likely it is that any product will implement it. It will remain the province of the research lab, and of the enterprising domestic experimenter with lots of spare time (and money). Just to add, for the sake of completion: Apple have made their ALAC lossless codec open-source, under the Apache 2 licence: http://alac.macosforge.org Richard Dobson ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 01:46:17AM -, John Lundsten wrote: Now if Mac OS is a belief system for you, It isn't, I'm not a MAC user (as you could guess from my e-mail address). Have a look at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff536383%28v=vs.85%29.aspx to see that WAVEFORMAT and PCMWAVEFORMAT are marked (by MS) as 'obsolete'. The basic rule is if a chunk is not understood, ignore it. Sure. Same for most other formats. CAF As I said this may be the 'true way', but basically, IMO, it's yet another attempt by Apple to create yet another format 'the other lot can't read'. Strange. I'm not a MAC user and have been reading and writing CAF files for years. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 11/25/2011 06:49 PM, Martin Leese wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalismari...@agxivatein.com wrote: quite a few ideas thus far.. but still I' m not quite sure about the most important issue: which is the most 'common' file-format for such things ? Four channel works are not common. Therefore, there are no common file formats for on-line delivery. i'd recommend a 5.1 container format with the center and lfe channels silent. will do something very reasonable for people who have 5.1 setups already, and those haven't will need to wire and move stuff around anyways, so no harm done. just make sure you document what you did very explicitly. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister (VDT) http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
if I make a 4 channel ac3 file - wouldn' t that be ok for people having 5.1 setups ?? the order of the 5.1 is FL/FR/SL/SR/C/LF (or I am mistaken in this?) so if somenody tries to playback a 4-channel file it will be routed to all but the sub and the centre, right ??? m On 26 Nov 2011, at 20:04, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: On 11/25/2011 06:49 PM, Martin Leese wrote: Marinos Koutsomichalismari...@agxivatein.com wrote: quite a few ideas thus far.. but still I' m not quite sure about the most important issue: which is the most 'common' file-format for such things ? Four channel works are not common. Therefore, there are no common file formats for on-line delivery. i'd recommend a 5.1 container format with the center and lfe channels silent. will do something very reasonable for people who have 5.1 setups already, and those haven't will need to wire and move stuff around anyways, so no harm done. just make sure you document what you did very explicitly. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister (VDT) http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/36a9528e/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 2011-11-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote: * The order of the 5.1 channels depends on where you are and on the phase of the moon. You should find out what the particular SW you'd use to make the encoded file expects. In most formats, the order is the same as in the USB and WAVE channel masks. You should check, but most people seem to be following that set pattern. We too for instance did when working on OggPCM. * You may have to include two empty channels (or tell your software they are missing if it allows that). They usually do. Mostly the problem comes when you have two or more channels which don't quite fit the mask and would naturally round to the same channel. That's not going to happen with four channels, though, unless you're working with something like multichannel frontal stereo. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 25/11/2011 23:26, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: about the 4 channels: they are 4 channels of audio to be played back by a quad set-up.. In fact they are decoded from a b-format recording, but what I want to release is a quad version of the piece. Hi there... Sorry not to contribute to this thread earlier, I've been busy. If you are wanting to distribute a quad G-Format (ie decoded from B Format to speaker feeds) recording, I'd recommend DTS-CD format. The encode software is inexpensive; it appears to have some advantages over AC-3 for Ambisonic-derived work; you can distribute files or CDs; the free player would be VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) - and of course virtually any modern home theatre system will also work; and here's a paper on how to do it (and the pros and cons): http://ambisonic.net/pdf/ambisonics_around.pdf You can ignore most of the stuff prior to Page 5 as you already have the quad decode. I hope this is helpful. Best, --Richard Elen ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release: HTML5 test
Latest version of Firefox (8.0) on Win7 64bit. Alls I get it the spinning dots when I press play. Nothing else. No sound. Bill On 26/11/11 8:08 p.m., etienne deleflie wrote: I've been meaning to try out HTML5's capabilities for a while, now seems a good time. http://soundofspace.com/static/test_html5.html This page hosts an (ambisonicaly decoded) 5.1 file in AAC and AC3 using HTML5 the browser should automatically choose the one it can support. InternetExplorer 9 supports AAC, so does Safari and so does Chrome. So that covers around 50% of browsers. BUT ... it also covers the two main OSes. Firefox is the other 50% ... and that means Ogg ... not sure if firefox supports AC3 but I dont think it does. The only question is whether or not the Browser can successfully stream the 5.1 channels to the sound card connected to multiple speakers. ... any reports of success or failure would be appreciated. Etienne -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2027/ae3fafc3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
I totally agree, any mention of MP3/WMA or any of the very lossy formats in the same breath as surround cannot be taken seriously. Flac has done a sterling job, most people use it, and so far I've no complaints. (oh, now what have I started LOL) Richard I dont know why FLAC and MP3 are mentioned in the same sentence. While FLAC is reckoned to be non-lossy (and certainly seems to be so), MP3 is definitely lossy and I would personally not expect a sursound file in that format to be worth listening to seriously. Just my two penn'oth... David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4637 - Release Date: 11/24/11 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2025/b2c4c55e/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com At 05:52 25/11/2011, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: Hello list, I was asked a 4-channel work for an online-release - I' m now trying to figure out what the best way to release it would be.. ... are there any other ideas/observations/advices ?? ... It would help to know what the four channels are: - B-format ? - 'speaker feeds' for a square ? - ? This would seem to be a key question. How was your four-channel work produced? What are the four channels? Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release/side topic
Hi, Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 03:51:03 - From: John Lundsten john.lunds...@blueyonder.co.uk IMO if one wants to store so called linear PCM, use WAV. All other formats offer less only exist for (a) backward compatibility for which I have no problem or (b) to screw the customer, which I find obnoxious. AIFF, AIFC, SD2, CAF, have no good reason to exist! (beyond some dodgy Commercial imperative to .) John L The first three have existed for some time, and presumably there were good reasons for them being created. Apple showed interest in sound long before Microsoft. They fall into your category a). SD2 has long been discarded for general use, but it is still desirable to be able to read and convert it. AIFF to WAV conversion and vice versa is fairly trivial nowadays and both formats are generally cross platform. AIFC has never really been in mainstream use, and the compression algorithms allowed in it have been superseded. CAF is slightly different in that it is a container format that can contain many different audio formats and other data. Unlike .mov or .mpeg it is audio only, so possibly most useful for sample and loop libraries. WAV itself, although adopted for compatibility and universality reasons, has been modified (BWAV, WAVE-FORMAT-EXTENSIBLE, W64, RF64), and may become obsolete. Nothing lasts for ever. Being a long term Mac user, almost my entire collection of audio files are AIFF. I feel secure using it, and have never had any problem with the format, whereas some WAV files don't work with some applications and have to be converted Ciao, Dave. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
Marinos Koutsomichalis mari...@agxivatein.com wrote:
but still I' m not quite sure about the most important issue:
which is the most 'common' file-format for such things ?
In terms of installed base of players, AC3 and DTS are the most common
formats for delivery of surround audio. VLC player can decode either
one, as can the DVD playing software preinstalled on many PCs.
Ambisonia and Nimbus have distributed 4-channel G-format ('speaker
feed') files in DTS-WAV format, which is DTS encoded audio in a
RIFF/WAV wrapper that can be burnt to a CD and played in most home
theater setups. Judging form the limited statistics I had access to
and the comments on the site, many people downloaded, played
successfully, and enjoyed the DTS-WAV files distributed on Ambisonia.
If you need help with any of this, feel free to ask.
--
Aaron Heller hel...@ai.sri.com
Menlo Park, CA US
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Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
If you are looking to release it in a format that a relatively large number of people can play, you might want to consider mastering it in a combo DVD Video/Audio format, in the form of an ISO file. Cirlinca has some relatively inexpensive software for doing the job. Dave Kaleita -Original Message- From: Marinos Koutsomichalis [mailto:mari...@agxivatein.com] Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:34 PM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] online multichannel release Hello list, I was asked a 4-channel work for an online-release - I' m now trying to figure out what the best way to release it would be.. I am totally inexperienced in web-friendly file formats for such things.. afaic - I could use mp3-surround - but it' s only 5.1 and this could possibly cause problems - I could use flac - but I' m not sure if common media-players support it - I could try some video format (?) are there any other ideas/observations/advices ?? what is paramount is that the casual listener can listen to the 4-channel mix without having to download nothing or in the worst scenario to download some specialized media-player which is flexible/easy to find and free. maybe there is specialized file-format/media-player or some lossy ambisonics formats for such things ?? -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2025/08b fe1b1/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release/side topic
On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 06:05:44PM + Dave Hunt wrote: Hi, Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 03:51:03 - From: John Lundsten john.lunds...@blueyonder.co.uk IMO if one wants to store so called linear PCM, use WAV. All other formats offer less only exist for (a) backward compatibility for which I have no problem or (b) to screw the customer, which I find obnoxious. AIFF, AIFC, SD2, CAF, have no good reason to exist! (beyond some dodgy Commercial imperative to .) John L WAV itself, although adopted for compatibility and universality reasons, has been modified (BWAV, WAVE-FORMAT-EXTENSIBLE, W64, RF64), and may become obsolete. Nothing lasts for ever. Being a long term Mac user, almost my entire collection of audio files are AIFF. I feel secure using it, and have never had any problem with the format, whereas some WAV files don't work with some applications and have to be converted Ciao, Dave. Why would wav be obsoleted and all these other formats survive? Don't they depend on wav in the first place? I know that CDs are converted to wav first then to whatever format you want them in but can you convert a CD directly to flac (or wavpack in my case)? If i'm messing around (i'm not a serious audio professional) in Ardour isn't it a wave file first, then a flac file (or what have you)? -- Bearcat M. Şandor Cell: 406.210.3500 Jabber/xmpp/gtalk/email: bear...@feline-soul.net MSN: bearcatsan...@hotmail.com Yahoo: bearcatsandor AIM: bearcatmsandor -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Attached Message Part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2025/5da171b5/attachment.bin ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release/side topic
On 25 Nov 2011, at 23:15, Bearcat M. Şandor wrote: If i'm messing around (i'm not a serious audio professional) in Ardour isn't it a wave file first, afaic no. normally you select the kind of file you want your audio saved to. I use aiffs most of the times. And you can convert to lots of other file-types from aiff without having to convert first to wav of course.. -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2026/911fcfb3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
about the 4 channels: they are 4 channels of audio to be played back by a quad
set-up.. In fact they are decoded from a b-format recording, but what I want to
release is a quad version of the piece.
as I mentioned I cannot consider wav/aiff and other lossless options because of
their size.
So what I understand from this discussion is that I can use
mp3 / flac / AC3 or DTS
and that more or less they will be ok with most recent players, right ?
so another question arises,
how can I create an interleaved file in each case ? what encoders are available
and what are the easiest/cheapest options ??
can sox do the job ?
m
On 25 Nov 2011, at 20:53, Aaron Heller wrote:
Marinos Koutsomichalis mari...@agxivatein.com wrote:
but still I' m not quite sure about the most important issue:
which is the most 'common' file-format for such things ?
In terms of installed base of players, AC3 and DTS are the most common
formats for delivery of surround audio. VLC player can decode either
one, as can the DVD playing software preinstalled on many PCs.
Ambisonia and Nimbus have distributed 4-channel G-format ('speaker
feed') files in DTS-WAV format, which is DTS encoded audio in a
RIFF/WAV wrapper that can be burnt to a CD and played in most home
theater setups. Judging form the limited statistics I had access to
and the comments on the site, many people downloaded, played
successfully, and enjoyed the DTS-WAV files distributed on Ambisonia.
If you need help with any of this, feel free to ask.
--
Aaron Heller hel...@ai.sri.com
Menlo Park, CA US
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--
Marinos Koutsomichalis
Music Research Center, University of York
Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC)
www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com
www.agxivatein.com
skype: marinosk_81
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Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
'This is stretching the actual facts a bit too much to be left unchallenged.' Ok. staying with the 'provocative' though true idea. I see your 'challenge', but see nothing in your post to contradict my suggestions. (or assertions if you like). Now if Mac OS is a belief system for you, IE knowing the 'truth' with no need for boring unwanted proof, then I'm sorry to waste your time ... .. . . . . Now for sure I'm not saying .wav is the only format for all time. But i do maintain the basic Wav structure was far better layed out more to the point, shared, than say AIFF and then Wav got 'extended', building on the well stated idea of 'mandatory' chunks (Eg info) supplemented by various other chunks going from well defined or near universal, down to overt 'private chunks'. The basic rule is if a chunk is not understood, ignore it - the basic Wav'ness means the file will still play just fine. 'The WAV format was compromised in its early years by mutually incompatible 'extensions', created by various software houses mainly for multichannel ( 2 channels), but also for plain mono and stereo.' Sorry this is Nonsense. The absolute worst that can happen is the 'new stuff' is not understood may even be 'played' as a 'splat'. [where software developers haven't bothered to read the Wav specs]. I know only too well, as a developer of the session conversion app, AATranslator, that even where formats are well documented widely available, many dev's choose to ignore the 'spec' ( it seems the 'Big players' piss' on standards more than most yeh therefore because of their Commercial significance, effectively can re-define any 'standard'. And yes i admit this 'corruption' will be more common for the most significant OS. However Mac apps on the other hand regularly wreck a BWF chunk. (which is vital to most Film /TV work). Or some Mac apps attempt to add that which is basic to wav, and not in the 'archaic' AIFF spec, add a 'timestamp'. But the chance of this being read by an app other than that which created it, is near to zero. CAF As I said this may be the 'true way', but basically, IMO, it's yet another attempt by Apple to create yet another format 'the other lot can't read'. JL - Original Message - From: Fons Adriaensen To: sursound@music.vt.edu Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 03:51:03AM -, John Lundsten wrote: Well as approx 98% of computers are PC's, whatever the merits of CAF (beyond ticking the 'box' this is different to what is available on a PC) it would be totally unsuitable to the OP. And yes for sure the RIFF Wav (with Wav extensible) has the cool chan mapping features CAF has, and very much as on a Mac, hardly anyone has bothered to implement it. IMO if one wants to store so called linear PCM, use WAV. All other formats offer less only exist for (a) backward compatibility for which I have no problem or (b) to screw the customer, which I find obnoxious. This is stretching the actual facts a bit too much to be left unchallenged. In fact, WAV is the one that exists for backwards compatibility only. The WAV format was compromised in its early years by mutually incompatible 'extensions', created by various software houses mainly for multichannel ( 2 channels), but also for plain mono and stereo. There are even today lots of those around. Microsoft was partly to blame for this by leaving some parts of the spec rather ambiguous. The result was chaos. Anyway, MS has officially deprecated multichannel WAV for ages now, and the WAVEX format was created to clean up the mess. Everything having more than 2 channels can't be WAV, it must be WAVEX. This has the same filename extension so you wouldn't normally notice. Mono or stereo WAV files are still accepted by official MS applications for the simple reason that there are so many of those around. At the moment, CAF is the only format I know of that doesn't drag a history of outdated junk behind it, that is 64-bit safe (WAV and WAVEX are not), and future-proof. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2101/4638 - Release Date: 11/25/11 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2026/ebe4df5d/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
I suggest to take a look at the Web Audio API from the W3C :
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/webaudio/specification.html
--
Marc
Le Sat, 26 Nov 2011 01:26:33 +0200
Marinos Koutsomichalis mari...@agxivatein.com a écrit:
about the 4 channels: they are 4 channels of audio to be played back
by a quad set-up.. In fact they are decoded from a b-format
recording, but what I want to release is a quad version of the piece.
as I mentioned I cannot consider wav/aiff and other lossless options
because of their size.
So what I understand from this discussion is that I can use
mp3 / flac / AC3 or DTS
and that more or less they will be ok with most recent players,
right ?
so another question arises,
how can I create an interleaved file in each case ? what encoders are
available and what are the easiest/cheapest options ??
can sox do the job ?
m
On 25 Nov 2011, at 20:53, Aaron Heller wrote:
Marinos Koutsomichalis mari...@agxivatein.com wrote:
but still I' m not quite sure about the most important issue:
which is the most 'common' file-format for such things ?
In terms of installed base of players, AC3 and DTS are the most
common formats for delivery of surround audio. VLC player can
decode either one, as can the DVD playing software preinstalled on
many PCs. Ambisonia and Nimbus have distributed 4-channel G-format
('speaker feed') files in DTS-WAV format, which is DTS encoded
audio in a RIFF/WAV wrapper that can be burnt to a CD and played in
most home theater setups. Judging form the limited statistics I
had access to and the comments on the site, many people downloaded,
played successfully, and enjoyed the DTS-WAV files distributed on
Ambisonia. If you need help with any of this, feel free to ask.
--
Aaron Heller hel...@ai.sri.com
Menlo Park, CA US
___
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--
Marinos Koutsomichalis
Music Research Center, University of York
Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC)
www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com
www.agxivatein.com
skype: marinosk_81
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Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 2011-11-25, John Lundsten wrote: And yes for sure the RIFF Wav (with Wav extensible) has the cool chan mapping features CAF has, and very much as on a Mac, hardly anyone has bothered to implement it. Don't even go there. Really. E.g. Martin Leese spent real effort getting the OggPCM draft right at the time. I continued with the channel mapping, all with the examples to go with it. All of that had zero impact. Absolutely zero. What *could* have impact is G+format. Thus, what are you trying to do with your signals. How can we help in pantophony, which is prolly what you want? :) IMO if one wants to store so called linear PCM, use WAV. That also rather depends, at the lower level. AES already has the 64-bit version of WAV, where the channel masks are finally ratified at an international level. Unlike with RIFF WAVE, you know. I believe EBU members are actively using that extended format even now, perhaps even here in Finland... All other formats offer less only exist for (a) backward compatibility for which I have no problem or (b) to screw the customer, which I find obnoxious. I'm rather certain as well that that WAV is where it's at at the moment. CAF would be better, if you can get it within your environment. Even within that you prolly won't get the ambisonic support which is built into it. From the (Apple) CAF standar (it really needs reading in context): [...] This stuff is downright amateurish compared to what I/we did with the OggPCM channel map. Really. To quote from http://wiki.xiph.org/OggPCM : // front left/right OGG_CHANNEL_STEREO_LEFT = 0 = 0x (30 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_STEREO_RIGHT = 1 = 0x0001 (30 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_QUAD_FRONT_LEFT = 2 = 0x0002 (45 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_QUAD_FRONT_RIGHT = 3 = 0x0003 (45 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_BLUMLEIN_LEFT = 4 = 0x0004 (figure of eight response 45 degrees to the left) OGG_CHANNEL_BLUMLEIN_RIGHT = 5 = 0x0005 (figure of eight response 45 degrees to the right) OGG_CHANNEL_WALL_FRONT_LEFT = 6 = 0x0006 (55 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_WALL_FRONT_RIGHT = 7 = 0x0007 (55 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_HEX_FRONT_LEFT = 8 = 0x0008 (60 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_HEX_FRONT_RIGHT = 9 = 0x0009 (60 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_PENTAGONAL_FRONT_LEFT = 10 = 0x000A (72 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_PENTAGONAL_FRONT_RIGHT = 11 = 0x000B (72 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_BINAURAL_LEFT = 12 = 0x000C (fed directly into the left ear canal, or front stereo dipole with crosstalk cancellation) OGG_CHANNEL_BINAURAL_RIGHT = 13 = 0x000D (fed directly into the right ear canal, or front stereo dipole with crosstalk cancellation) OGG_CHANNEL_FRONT_STEREO_DIPOLE_LEFT = 14 = 0x000E (5 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_FRONT_STEREO_DIPOLE_RIGHT = 15 = 0x000F (5 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_UHJ_L = 16 = 0x0010 (ambisonics UHJ left) OGG_CHANNEL_UHJ_R = 17 = 0x0011 (ambisonics UHJ right) OGG_CHANNEL_DOLBY_STEREO_LEFT = 18 = 0x0012 (dolby stereo/surround left total) OGG_CHANNEL_DOLBY_STEREO_RIGHT = 19 = 0x0013 (dolby stereo/surround right total) OGG_CHANNEL_XY_LEFT = 20 = 0x0014 (cardioid response 45 degrees to the left) OGG_CHANNEL_XY_RIGHT = 21 = 0x0015 (cardioid response 45 degrees to the right) // front center/mono OGG_CHANNEL_SCREEN_CENTER = 256 = 0x0100 (ear level, straight ahead, at screen distance) OGG_CHANNEL_MS_MID = 257 = 0x0101 (cardioid response, straight ahead) OGG_CHANNEL_FRONT_CENTER = 258 = 0x0102 (ear level, straight ahead) // lfe OGG_CHANNEL_LFE = 512 = 0x0200 (omnidirectional, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) OGG_CHANNEL_LFE_SIDE_LEFT = 513 = 0x0201 (90 degrees left, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) OGG_CHANNEL_LFE_SIDE_RIGHT = 514 = 0x0202 (90 degrees right, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) OGG_CHANNEL_LFE_FRONT_CENTER_LEFT = 515 = 0x0203 (22.5 degrees left, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) OGG_CHANNEL_LFE_FRONT_CENTER_RIGHT = 516 = 0x0204 (22.5 degrees right, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) OGG_CHANNEL_LFE_FRONT_BOTTOM_CENTER_LEFT = 517 = 0x0205 (45 degrees lowered, 22.5 degrees left, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) OGG_CHANNEL_LFE_FRONT_BOTTOM_CENTER_RIGHT = 518 = 0x0206 (45 degrees lowered, 22.5 degrees right, bandlimited to 120Hz, 10dB louder than the reference level) // back left/right OGG_CHANNEL_ITU_BACK_LEFT = 768 = 0x0300 (back, 70 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_ITU_BACK_RIGHT = 769 = 0x0301 (back, 70 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_ITU_BACK_LEFT_SURROUND = 770 = 0x0302 (back, 70 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_ITU_BACK_RIGHT_SURROUND = 771 = 0x0303 (back, 70 degrees right) OGG_CHANNEL_HEX_BACK_LEFT = 772 = 0x0304 (back, 60 degrees left) OGG_CHANNEL_HEX_BACK_RIGHT = 773 = 0x0305 (back, 60 degrees right)
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 2011-11-25, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: but still I' m not quite sure about the most important issue: which is the most 'common' file-format for such things ? In order the two most common ones are (I think): 1) Microsoft's AVI container (RIFF), with video as pure MPEG-2 and audio as 2 or 5.1 MPEG-2 layer 3 audio (mp3), or 2) any of Matroska/AVI/BMFF(MP4) container, with h.264/MPEG-4 AVC video, and AAC audio, inside. The latter rhymes well with HTML5, for example. Apple's QuickTime, as a container format and the prototype for MPEG-4's BMFF, and OTOH CAF, work well with all of that stuff. So does the .3gpp mobile stuff, because it's basically the same .mp4 thingy. So: I'd go with pure mpeg-2 video and layer 2 audio for full compatibility. It will only buy you stereo. If you want more, go with either of Matroska or mp4 as a container, then one of the h.264 profiles for video (full is my favourite, but it can kill a nettop; go with Advanced Simple if you can), and AAC for audio (it also has profiles; at 48kbps stereo you should do HE-AAC; at 96kbps you can do without the HE part; at somewhere around 240-320kbps, with all of the coding options in use, you can finally do perceptually transparent 5.1, and not just FM quality). Would sth like quicktime or VLC or Windows-Media-Player playback 4-channel Flacs or mp3-surround or whatever without any need for additional tweaking ??? I think you are asking the wrong question. There are many ways in which to project four channels of sound to a listener/audience. Around here, the right question is where did those channels come from, what do they mean, and what do you want to do with them besides awe people. I'm pretty sure we can tell you what to do with your channels. But first you have to tell us what that data is about, in all. How was it captured? What do you really want to do with it? A perfect reconstruction of what happened on-stage? Sure we can give you all of it, but first you have to tell us the basic numbers, with which we then calculate. :) I did some web-research and I think that the most common formats for that surround sound is mp3/flac and AAC You should prolly always save everything you do as FLAC, because it's fully lossless. Then save your encoding and decoding software as well. But for distribution purposes, nobody and nothing decodes FLAC: That's a matter of life, unfortunately. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
On 2011-11-26, John Lundsten wrote: Now for sure I'm not saying .wav is the only format for all time. Of course not. RIFF, CAF, and whatever, follow the same EAV/TLV formula that Commodore Amiga's IFF did: entity-attribute-value/type-length-value. The four byte/32-bit total schema for each of those values actually originated with Motorola's 680x0 series of processors, instead of the ones we now use. The original RIFF was Commodore Amiga's IFF. I trust that you possess a copy of the original Interchange File Format specification, as I do. But i do maintain the basic Wav structure was far better layed out more to the point, shared, than say AIFF and then Wav got 'extended', building on the well stated idea of 'mandatory' chunks (Eg info) supplemented by various other chunks going from well defined or near universal, down to overt 'private chunks'. Yes. (And sorry, you do seem to know about AIFF as well. Most don't.) The point is that that structure cuts through to QuickTime and MP4 BMFF as well. While getting better on the way. Unfortunately we don't know too well what the best and most widely spread contenders look like, internally. Like Flash or ShoutCast. But the fact is, the newer derivatives of the age-old IFF are better than the older kinds. By a mile. The basic rule is if a chunk is not understood, ignore it - the basic Wav'ness means the file will still play just fine. That's the basic theory, yes. But does it hold forever? No. Just look at SMB as a protocol or Microsoft Word's format even after it moved over to COM or whatever it was. It's a thorough wonder by now that them OpenOffice dudes have been able t decipher what that basic TLV/EAV format does, over the years and versions. 'The WAV format was compromised in its early years by mutually incompatible 'extensions', created by various software houses mainly for multichannel ( 2 channels), but also for plain mono and stereo.' Sorry this is Nonsense. Mostly, but not quite. It did happen, and the people working with the format fealt it. Just as they did with incompatible extensions to the standard MIDI file. But the ecosystem-wide effects were rather limited, which they are not today. The absolute worst that can happen is the 'new stuff' is not understood may even be 'played' as a 'splat'. [where software developers haven't bothered to read the Wav specs]. I actually have. And some others. Did you know RIFF WAVE is no longer primarily controlled by Microsoft as it used to be? That it's now RF64, an extension of BWF, a derivative of RIFF WAVE? RF64 is controlled by EBU. So is BWF. And I seem to remember both of them have been ratified by AES. So there you go: there's no WAV anymore. ;) Mac apps on the other hand regularly wreck a BWF chunk. (which is vital to most Film /TV work). Hell. Another format narc. Will yield if necessary... Or some Mac apps attempt to add that which is basic to wav, and not in the 'archaic' AIFF spec, add a 'timestamp'. There are new genuinely new things in the QuickTime/BMFF stage. Like hints for realtime casting of an unevenly compressed, multiplexed file. Those can't really be neglected in the so called manly work. Plus, those are already well-standardized. As I said this may be the 'true way', but basically, IMO, it's yet another attempt by Apple to create yet another format 'the other lot can't read'. Fully agreed. Though then you'd have to agree it's a neat format per se. Well-thought out, as clean as de novo ones come, and perhaps the only new one which includes at least some support for ambisonic. It might be that we're a bit partial here, being that many around here like ambisonic. But you too have to admit it's a neat de novo design. Of course it only works for Apple, as an ecosystem. That's why nobody here really bets their livelihood on it. Just look at the logs and be assured of that. :) -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
I too would be really interested in this. I've got a 1st order recording of a live performance that I would love to upload to soundcloud. (Which I doubt will be able to play it). On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Marinos Koutsomichalis mari...@agxivatein.com wrote: Hello list, I was asked a 4-channel work for an online-release - I' m now trying to figure out what the best way to release it would be.. I am totally inexperienced in web-friendly file formats for such things.. afaic - I could use mp3-surround - but it' s only 5.1 and this could possibly cause problems - I could use flac - but I' m not sure if common media-players support it - I could try some video format (?) are there any other ideas/observations/advices ?? what is paramount is that the casual listener can listen to the 4-channel mix without having to download nothing or in the worst scenario to download some specialized media-player which is flexible/easy to find and free. maybe there is specialized file-format/media-player or some lossy ambisonics formats for such things ?? -- Marinos Koutsomichalis Music Research Center, University of York Contemporary Music Research Centre (CMRC) www.marinoskoutsomichalis.com www.agxivatein.com skype: marinosk_81 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2025/08bfe1b1/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2024/73013f1f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
But this retruns to your original question, in the form: what
commonly used software unpacks and plays XYZ ... ;-(
Well as approx 98% of computers are PC's, whatever the merits of CAF (beyond
ticking the 'box' this is different to what is available on a PC) it would be
totally unsuitable to the OP.
And yes for sure the RIFF Wav (with Wav extensible) has the cool chan mapping
features CAF has, and very much as on a Mac, hardly anyone has bothered to
implement it.
IMO if one wants to store so called linear PCM, use WAV. All other formats
offer less only exist for (a) backward compatibility for which I have no
problem or (b) to screw the customer, which I find obnoxious.
AIFF, AIFC, SD2, CAF, have no good reason to exist! (beyond some dodgy
Commercial imperative to .)
John L
- Original Message -
From: Michael Chapman
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Sursound] online multichannel release
Hello list,
I was asked a 4-channel work for an online-release - I' m now trying to
figure out what the best way to release it would be..
I am totally inexperienced in web-friendly file formats for such things..
afaic
- I could use mp3-surround - but it' s only 5.1 and this could possibly
cause problems
- I could use flac - but I' m not sure if common media-players support it
- I could try some video format (?)
are there any other ideas/observations/advices ??
For archiving there are certainly formats CAF (see below) has
the abiiity to store detailed info. IIRC WAV has too.
Both can be compressed with WavPack (though CAF may not
yet be in the main stream).
But this retruns to your original question, in the form: what
commonly used software unpacks and plays XYZ ... ;-(
It would help to know what the four channels are:
- B-format ?
- 'speaker feeds' for a square ?
- ?
Michael.
From the (Apple) CAF standar (it really needs reading in context):
Label CodesforChannel Layouts
LabelCodesindicatetheroleofachannel.
CAFfilesspecifythisinformationinthischunk’smChannelLabel
field.
Thefollowinglistincludesmostchannel layoutsincommonuse.
Duetodifferencesinchannel labelingby
variousindustrygroups, theremaybeoverlaporduplication. Ineverycase,
usethelabel thatmostclearly
describestheroleoftheaudiochannel.
enum
{
kCAFChannelLabel_Unknown= 0x, // unknown role or
unspecified
// other use for channel
kCAFChannelLabel_Unused = 0,// channel is present, but
// has no intended role or
destination
kCAFChannelLabel_UseCoordinates = 100, // channel is described
// solely by the mCoordinates
fields
kCAFChannelLabel_Left = 1,
kCAFChannelLabel_Right = 2,
kCAFChannelLabel_Center = 3,
kCAFChannelLabel_LFEScreen = 4,
kCAFChannelLabel_LeftSurround = 5,// WAVE (.wav files):
Back Left
kCAFChannelLabel_RightSurround = 6,// WAVE: Back Right
kCAFChannelLabel_LeftCenter = 7,
kCAFChannelLabel_RightCenter= 8,
kCAFChannelLabel_CenterSurround = 9,// WAVE: Back Center or
// plain Rear Surround
kCAFChannelLabel_LeftSurroundDirect = 10, // WAVE: Side Left
kCAFChannelLabel_RightSurroundDirect= 11, // WAVE: Side Right
kCAFChannelLabel_TopCenterSurround = 12,
kCAFChannelLabel_VerticalHeightLeft = 13, // WAVE: Top Front Left
kCAFChannelLabel_VerticalHeightCenter = 14, // WAVE: Top Front
Center
kCAFChannelLabel_VerticalHeightRight= 15, // WAVE: Top Front
Right
kCAFChannelLabel_TopBackLeft= 16,
kCAFChannelLabel_TopBackCenter = 17,
kCAFChannelLabel_TopBackRight = 18,
kCAFChannelLabel_RearSurroundLeft = 33,
kCAFChannelLabel_RearSurroundRight = 34,
kCAFChannelLabel_LeftWide = 35,
kCAFChannelLabel_RightWide = 36,
kCAFChannelLabel_LFE2 = 37,
kCAFChannelLabel_LeftTotal = 38, // matrix encoded 4
channels
kCAFChannelLabel_RightTotal = 39, // matrix encoded 4
channels
kCAFChannelLabel_HearingImpaired= 40,
kCAFChannelLabel_Narration = 41,
kCAFChannelLabel_Mono = 42,
kCAFChannelLabel_DialogCentricMix = 43,
kCAFChannelLabel_CenterSurroundDirect = 44, // back center, non
diffuse
// first order ambisonic channels
kCAFChannelLabel_Ambisonic_W= 200,
kCAFChannelLabel_Ambisonic_X= 201
