Re: [Biofuel] Adding SVO to petro diesel (lubricity issue)
Dana, On the following link, there's a paper published by the Sask. Canola Devleopment Commission about veggie-additives. The researcher is noticeably conservative with his percentages, however, it's a good read nonetheless. http://www.scdc.sk.ca/html/rese_fs.html No matter where you are, you're safe to run 5% at all times. I run 5% here in Edmonton, AB (dang cold!) , at temps above -20degC without incident. In the warmer months, depending on your vehicle, you can run much higher blends. I have successfully run 100 percent SVO at 15degC and above through my regular fuel tank, however, my vehcle was arguably designed to suck jello through the injectors (1984 merc 300d) - furthermore, this was on store-bought, picture perfect canola oil. Research your vehicle and your injector pump THOROUGHLY do decrease to determine how suitable they are. With respects to the type of oil - stay away from soy for this application, just to be safe. I recommend canola oil. The first time I ran an SVO blend, I couldn't believe how quiet the motor became during idle - it was spooky. Should you decide to get serious about running SVO all the time, check out: www.plantdrive.com (neoteric's new sie) and then contact Ed Beggs (via the site). All the best, Joey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn I can't say what the transesterification might affect in castor oil, but on another list I subscribe to, (clocks) the gentlemen who have cleaned castor oil from the case (preservative? finish?) are currently discussing the method (scraping) and material (solvent) required to try to dissolve the sticky gummy mess that castor oil has left on the case. Also tends to draw the copper out of the brass of the clock works, making the sticky gummy mess green. Perhaps the transesterification would change the characteristics of the oil, but I'd want to try test patches before introducing it to a fuel tank, pump, injectors, etc. doug swanson Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Maybe some one there can help here as well. There are or seem to be two thoughts on the growing of Physic nut/Jatropha Curcas. One is that the Asian variety has a Carcinogenic property producing cells in skin tissue from contact with the plant or some parts thereof. The second is that the type found in Mexico does not have the above character. Is this amyth? Doug - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:00 AM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is whywe posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would sayso why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking foradvice and if youhave reasonsto believethat jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about themso as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Your Tax dollars at work
Sorry about that - if I want to go over to dark side I think I'd be good at it, no? Oh well. NO fear of that! JJJN wrote: Sheesh, Ok jokes on me, (giggle) goodness sakes if it didn't just sound so much like what Rush or Rove or one of those Preachers for hire would say though. Should have read the whole thread closer. Well any way Merry X-mas Mike. Jim Mike Weaver wrote: It's not true; I made it up as an example of what we can expect instead of any sort or reasoned debate about the actual problems facing the US. It's a hoax. -Mike JJJN wrote: LIBERAL PLAN TO REMOVE THE CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS AND MAKE IT X-MAS. My fellow American, I have learned today that the Liberals in Congress are secretly plotting to take Jesus, the Christ, out of Christmas and change the holiday's name to X-mas. As we all know, X is simply shorthand for X-rated, and if these godless secular humanist liberals aren't stopped, soon the birthday of Christ will become a sex-drenched extragaganza. Your children will subjected to topless elves, video sex toys and a parade of naked X-mas characters. ONLY YOU CAN STOP THIS ATTACK ON JESUS. YOU MUST DONATE TO THE KEEP THE CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS PAC SO WE CAN SPREAD THE WORD. EVEN MORE IMPORTANLY, YOU MUST SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICAN IN THE UPCOMING PRIMARIES. God bless, Karl Rove Ok , Sorry to bring this thread back to life but I was away for awhile. This is just s wrong I gotta get my 2 cents in. 1) X-mas is short hand, X= Cross = Christ + mas = Christmas I remember it being written this way before the word liberal was used to describe a strong Democrat or opposite of Conservative. 2) Just when was Christ ever in Christmas anyway? The holiday was created by Catholics to convert large groups of Pagans to catholics by taking Pagan traditions and celebrations and calling them Christs Mass. They created a PHONY birthday for Christ so it would coincide (just after) with the winter solstice wherein these Pagan traditions revolved. The whole deal is more Catholics meant more Money in the church and more power to convert more Catholics. Rove is using this same ages old tactic to create more REPULICHRISTIANS whereby more money whereby more power to... - (this part scares me) I don't care if you are Catholic and love your holiday or if you are anything else and love the holiday - the point is the religious right thinks that they have a God given agenda to stomp on anyone that disagrees on them and their agenda. The sad part is, if Christ came back and didn't agree with them he might get put on the cross again. In summary religion is a bigger business than oil. Sorry I digress Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Iresearched it - it was feasible from a theoretical point of view - has anyone tried it? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
We would be an adjuct to what already exists. I will say that one thing I would put on a BD advocacy website would be a guide to laws, federal and local, as well as a How-to on setting up a BD co-op. Any attorneys on this list? Kenji James Fuse wrote: The NBB does do some of this advocacy, although we all know it is basically a lobby for the soy industry. I'm more inclined to put my $100 into forming a co-operative association. It seems more practical and hands-on. It provides very real protection, as an incorporation, yet offers an alternative to the prevalent 'profit-at-all-costs' corporate directive. It also offers the opportunity to get to know other biodieselers in your area. Nevertheless, I'm all for a 'grassroots'-minded group. Isn't that what we are already? Kenji ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Soybean based biodiesel
I had wreckers gumming up w/ algae 20 years ago on pure dino diesel. Keith Addison wrote: The aspen Times is carrying a story about problems with buses running on 5% bio diesel mixture. Is it normal to have your fuel tank etc. clogged up with a green algae substance, or has it to do with the 5% mixture? Does the fact that the Bio diesel was manufactured from Soybeans have any thing to do with it? Apart from our normal interest in Bio diesel in general, we are thinking of planting soybeans to manufacture bio diesel from. Try a good old browse in the list archives to find out why soy biodiesel fails to meet the European biodiesel standard. Our number one choice to manufacture bio diesel from is Jatropha Curcas but we have been unable to obtain seeds locally or from any of the countries surrounding us.(South Africa) Still your number one choice? You didn't have a very positive response when you raised it here before. In fact nobody thought it was a good idea. Oh well. Kind regards. Isabel Here's the offending article (you might at least provide a url next time). Pioneering, LOL! http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20051204/NEWS/112040022 Aspen Times News for Aspen Colorado - News Bean-based biodiesel gives buses bellyache By Chad Abraham December 4, 2005 As nutritional as they are, beans can also be the source of occasional discomfort. While beans in humans can lead to gas, beans in the gas of local buses has led to engine indigestion. Like someone who has had one pinto too many, some buses in Aspen that run on soybean-based biodiesel started having trouble about three weeks ago. After a bus repeatedly failed to start, mechanics unveiled the problem: a green, algae-like substance clogging up the fuel tank. The tank, like the rest of the other buses in the Roaring Fork Transportation Authority fleet, holds diesel fuel and a 5 percent mixture of biodiesel fuel. A bacteria found growing on the fuel was plugging up filters in the engine, said Kenny Osier, RFTA's maintenance director. Three of the six buses operating in Aspen were affected, but none of the buses traveling up and down the valley had any problems. We're not quite sure why, Osier said. No passengers were inconvenienced, and the problem has already been remedied by the fuel supplier, Agland, a farmer-owned cooperative based near Greeley. The work cost Agland $6,000. We treated all our fuel with a 'biocide,' and it's going to be a standard procedure from this point forward, Osier said. We hope that we've gotten through the [problem]. Other jurisdictions have had similar issues, he said, and likely the bacteria was at the root of those problems, as well. The 5 percent biodiesel mix is in its 13th month of use by RFTA. There are no plans to discontinue using the environmentally friendly fuel, but we are going to sample our fuel pretty regularly for the next month or two, Osier said. Agland officials really want biodiesel to work, he said. A letter from the company to Osier said Agland and RFTA share a common thread in our commitment to biomass fuels. They are good for our environment [and] American farmers, and reduce our dependence on petroleum imports. The letter notes that pioneering things of this nature are not easy and that Agland appreciates RFTA's commitment and patience. While it is not the path of least resistance, it is the course we need to pursue for our collective future, the letter says. Chad Abraham's e-mail address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Arggh. I have no illusions that I would be getting anything out of this, much less a full time paycheck out of this. I already have a job. I own a business. I do IT consulting for mostly broke non-profits whose causes I happen to believe in. I could make triple what I make now working for the system - I just can't live that way anymore. I spend an inordinate amount of time doing free support for another huge renewables website/list serv. What I charge them does not even begin to cover what I put into it. I also have other sites I support with my time and my funds. I can't afford to take on something like this on my own. Good for you on raw milk. Given the state of the Texas lege I'm amazed you got anywhere (Yes, I have roots in Texas) I never envisioned this as a full time job with a salary. You made that up. I envision a mostly Internet-based advocacy group. I have already enumerated the issues that have come up. If legislation comes up and I can make it to the Hill, I would go. I would hope I could get other locally-based BDers to go as well. No one has asked you to join anything. If you don't think it's a good idea, then don't be a part of it. Frankly, I'm amazed at the amount of flak that has shown up from *this* side of the aisle. I haven't noticed you contributing anything other than negative comments. -Mike Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am sorry you took offence, but many good grass roots based things have happened without someone getting a full time paycheck out of it. For starters, we have legal raw milk dairies in Texas. If you are planning on creating yourself a job with everyone's funds, please have the honesty to say so and tell us what you consider a reasonsable salary. A list of qualification would also be appreciated. I am not sure that anyone who snipes at honest questions is what we need to front such a movement, but I may have caught you on a bad day. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:22 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote: Jeez, you're right! How simple! I wanted the money for myself! Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies! And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone. Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can tell by the last energy bill. There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going on when we can bombard Washington with postcards! And I will get right on that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or congress calls there will be an actual person to answer it. May I forward the calls to you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5? Thanks! I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage. It just runs itself! Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited themselves, and hopped right up on the website. Which, by the way, is not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits. But I guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking for BD info. There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder the financial burden. I've been consulting in and working the non-profit area for 20 years. I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding. It dies. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a member of an advocacy group. I am a member of several and the membership is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with. Something as simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will work. Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people. What is the money for? Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? -Mike Doug Turner wrote: Hi Mike, Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People. It's bound to be a cult classic. Doug - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? Nah, when it comes it'll be from two directions: The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling. This will require fairly expensive equipment and insurance
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
mandatory So don't join. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, So does JTF, I have given money to them. There is a difference between a voluntary donation and a manditory charge to be a member. I do support many of the organizations that I work with but when I choose to. Bright Blessings, Kim At 11:16 AM 12/4/2005, you wrote: Moveon.org also solicits funding. My family has given them money. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, If you are watching what is happening on the pesticide testing on children, forum, yes, we are making a big difference. In Texas, we now have legal raw milk, due to such campaignes. Move on is an organization that gets the people out to write to congress and it is working. When enough people write letters, the congressmen get worried about re-election. Bright Blessings, Kim At 11:52 AM 12/3/2005, you wrote: Kim, You wrote: I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a member of an advocacy group. I am a member of several and the membership is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with. Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with? Tom - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? Greetings, I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a member of an advocacy group. I am a member of several and the membership is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with. Something as simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will work. Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people. What is the money for? Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? -Mike Doug Turner wrote: Hi Mike, Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People. It's bound to be a cult classic. Doug - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? Nah, when it comes it'll be from two directions: The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling. This will require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer can't afford. There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get the message and give up. This will probably be aided and abetted by Big Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people. Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and trumpet it all over the place. The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and set up an organization to counter this. Everyone will be in favor of it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues. United we could stand, divided we'll fall. When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver Joe Street wrote: I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the winds of change blow cold on the home brew community? Suppose at some point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or prevent you from making your own fuel. I know that collectively there are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this point. I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental ideals. But what can we do though? I feel I am very fortunate because in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue is concerned. I am just wondering if a possible solution to this potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of
Re: [Biofuel] BD Advocacy Group in US
I know. I guess I'm just wondering what I might be getting myself into. I already have a pet renewable energy group that takes up a huge amount of time and it seems like all they do is complain I don't do more! I've lived around DC for years and I know how things work here. If it was money I was after this isn't the route I would take! OTOH, if biodieseler weren't a bunch of independent-minded crackpots we all wouldn't be here, would we? ;-) -Mike Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I've have read your posts with interest and, at times with amusement. I don't think that anyone who has followed your posts would question your integrity or your motivation for forming a biodiesel advocacy group. As for funding ... the advocacy sites I've been able to find, all solicit funding. Worthy organizations such as Greenpeace, Sierra Club and Amnesty International accept a fee for membership. Even JtF accepts donations, and I urge everyone to contribute. I thank Mike Weaver for sticking his neck out, and offering to organize a group to help keep us abreast of proposals/pending legislation that would effect BD brewers in the US. I would be willing to contribute to such a group. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still burning! :-) I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the screws to home brewers. Joe www.nonprofitfuel.ca Mike Weaver wrote: I'm very serious. I would be willing to start it - my real business is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know how Capital Hill works. The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe. I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local governments on behalf of BD. users. I also think classes and training would be a good idea. Names? More ideas? -Mike Kurt Nolte wrote: On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the strings of the world, IE corporations. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Renewables in India
Hello Keith, Pan and all, Apologies for my long silence and less than quick responses to some earlier posts, particularly on abiogenic petroleum, which need further research. I hope to soon make amends. It has been pouring whole lakeful(l)s on Chennai this season and the past week has been one long stretch of continual pounding from the skies. Haven't had rains like this since the Eighties. The raingods seem to have quaffed too much local beer and are venting their overblown bladders on the hapless populace, which can't even run for cover as homes are already under several feet of water. All these years , the friendly neighbouring states of Karnataka Tamilnadu were fighting over rights to the measly waters flowing down the Kaveri and are now equally active performing reverse somersaults on why dams should or should not be raised. Good news in the meanwhile on the renewables front. http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=40008 With 7000 MW of renewable energy grid power capacity currently installed in India -- representing 7 percent of the total installed grid power in the country -- and wind power alone contributing 4 percent with an installed capacity of 4225 MW, the country's Minister for Non-Conventional Energy Sources announced that India ranks fourth after Germany, the U.S. and Spain. A few days back some of the oil biggies in India issued tenders for B100 under the government mandate of 20% BD blending with High Speed Diesel. But going by the experience of sugar mills, which were offered below-cost prices by the same biggies for anhydrous ethanol for similarly mandated blending with gasoline (petrol), one is cautious in optimism. Regards balaji ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Joe, I think there is some merit to this. Certainly a description of the rules that do exist (and proposed as we become aware of them) for each jurisdiction with Canada would be useful. It's something I had in mind for the Ottawa co-op when I lent the greendiesel.com URL to them. Perhaps we can co-ordinate something, even using three or more sites. Let's talk some about this next week when I get back from Vancouver (electric vehicle conference this week including hybrids and hydrogen hype). Darryl McMahon (BTW, I already maintain registries for on-road electric vehicles and electric tractors on the Web, so I might have some useful information on structure and data.) Joe Street wrote: I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still burning! :-)I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the screws to home brewers. Joe www.nonprofitfuel.ca Mike Weaver wrote: I'm very serious. I would be willing to start it - my real business is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know how Capital Hill works. The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe. I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local governments on behalf of BD. users. I also think classes and training would be a good idea. Names? More ideas? -Mike Kurt Nolte wrote: On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? I'd pay. If only to stick it to the man who's trying to pull the strings of the world, IE corporations. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
"stick it to the man"Yes!If people won't participate in government and it results in only half of the electorate picking one of the most powerful political offices in the world,it requires a revolution by those who see the imbalance of power, the epidemic of corruption and nationalist BS. Some revolutions are quieter than others.Myowngovernment, no wait, the government of my country, has a talent for creating loopholes for the wealthy. I am thoroughly enjoying the confusion encountered by local governments to close the loopholes and think of ways to tax energy at a time whenso many kinds are emerging.Tax gasoline, use ethanol Tax ethanol, use biodiesel Tax biodiesel, use wood gasification Tax woodgas, usebiogas Tax ...There will be a time when their ignorance about biofuels and ambition to tax u2 death will lead them closer to the supermarket! That's when things will get interesting.MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still burning! :-) I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the screws to home brewers.Joewww.nonprofitfuel.ca___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Joe, Thanks for the offer.Would the car registration be limited to Canadian residents? Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still burning! :-) I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the screws to home brewers.Joewww.nonprofitfuel.caMike Weaver wrote: I'm very serious. I would be willing to start it - my real business is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know how Capital Hill works. The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe. I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local governments on behalf of BD. users. I also think classes and training would be a good idea. Names? More ideas? -Mike Kurt Nolte wrote: On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the strings of the world, IE corporations. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Jatropha is big in India, even Mercedes has a 9000 hectares plot with cultivated Jatropha, in Senegal is D1 from England with 20.000 hectares and in Tanzania there is Tanlapia with 18.000 hectares.Regards, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Iresearched it - it was feasible from a theoretical point of view - has anyone tried it?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi IsabelI heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true?MarilynBiofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:Note: Forwarded Email Message Below:Hi KeithIt seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a sourceto produce bio diesel from?When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and noneof them was negative.Maybe I missed something!As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel andthat is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanationwhy we though it would be best to use jatropha.We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio dieseland to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us toproduce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have readthat jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio dieselfrom.You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing biodiesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha isnot the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so whyyou think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and ifyou have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to knowabout them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision.Kind regards.Isabel.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Excellent Darryl; Thanks for the post. I'll talk to the alt fuels group here at UW and see what I can find out about what the research title affords them. I know the solar car for example does not even require a license to be driven on the road. I welcome your input from your experience with the registry. Also give us a recap on the conference when you return. I want an electric car. I was watching the movie GATACCA on the weekend and it looked like a '70's vintage Fiat spyder that they were portraying as an electric vehicle in one of the scenes. It inspired me to get one and take the engine out..what a classy ride that woud be. Say hello to the Pacific for me and tell her I miss her. Joe Darryl McMahon wrote: Joe, I think there is some merit to this. Certainly a description of the rules that do exist (and proposed as we become aware of them) for each jurisdiction with Canada would be useful. It's something I had in mind for the Ottawa co-op when I lent the greendiesel.com URL to them. Perhaps we can co-ordinate something, even using three or more sites. Let's talk some about this next week when I get back from Vancouver (electric vehicle conference this week including hybrids and hydrogen hype). Darryl McMahon (BTW, I already maintain registries for on-road electric vehicles and electric tractors on the Web, so I might have some useful information on structure and data.) Joe Street wrote: I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still burning! :-)I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the screws to home brewers. Joe www.nonprofitfuel.ca Mike Weaver wrote: I'm very serious. I would be willing to start it - my real business is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know how Capital Hill works. The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe. I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local governments on behalf of BD. users. I also think classes and training would be a good idea. Names? More ideas? -Mike Kurt Nolte wrote: On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the strings of the world, IE corporations. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
No myth, there is a non-edible specie, growing in the tropics in the wild and a edible specie coming from S-America, both are used a lot, the advantage for the non toxic is that the cake can be used to feed the animals, while the toxic one is used for fertilising, and fuel in the form of brickets,greetings martin Roozenburglres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe some one there can help here as well. There are or seem to be two thoughts on the growing of Physic nut/Jatropha Curcas. One is that the Asian variety has a Carcinogenic property producing cells in skin tissue from contact with the plant or some parts thereof. The second is that the type found in Mexico does not have the above character.Is this amyth?Doug - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:00 AM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** Hi KeithIt seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from?When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative.Maybe I missed something!As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is whywe posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha.We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would sayso why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking foradvice and if youhave reasonsto believethat jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about themso as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards.Isabel. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Yahoo! Personals___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hi Isabel Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? I think whether it's a good idea or not depends entirely on the immediate context of where you're planning to grow it. One of the replies you got warned you against the silver bullet approach. There's no magic bullet, the crop that gives the best results is the one that fits the local circumstances best, the more local the better. Like all crops, jatropha curcas has its pros and cons, some of them were also pointed out to you: I grew Jatropha in Ruwa, about 30 km from Harare, and they did quite well there. What I found with them is the seed is very difficult to get out of the outer shell but maybe you can invent or buy a machine to do that part of the job. Have you thought of using Leucaena? -- Jed, Mozambique Jatropha is hardy and has a highish yield but it's also toxic. The seedcake (what's left after pressing) cannot be fed to animals. Why not convert it to biodiesel? It's better in the long run. -- Duncan, South Africa This is also in the archive, along with much else: A critique of Jatropha in India by Ashden Award winner, Pune-based botanist Dr. A. D. Karve, president of the Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) in Maharashtra, India: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48290.html Our number one choice to manufacture bio diesel from is Jatropha Curcas but we have been unable to obtain seeds locally or from any of the countries surrounding us.(South Africa) Both Jed and Duncan told you where you could get seeds, two different places, did you try them? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! Maybe! Do you really think those two replies are positive? As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is why we posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. I'd suggest you do a little more reading. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. I wouldn't claim that, I think we're all learners. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would say so why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking for advice and if you have reasons to believe that jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about them so as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. I think I've said so many times, and why. The List administration told you the same thing when you joined, and made some good suggestions, but you didn't seem to notice. There is no best crop, if you think there is then you're starting in the wrong place and asking the wrong questions. Too often the result of that is that if anyone benefits it's not those who were intended to benefit, or it's at their expense. IMHO the choice isn't between jatropha and soy, it's more about the kind of project you want to do. Please see: http://journeytoforever.org/community.html Community development http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger How come your reading on biodiesel hasn't revealed to you the disadvantages of soy? Eg.: Apart from our normal interest in Bio diesel in general, we are thinking of planting soybeans to manufacture bio diesel from. Try a good old browse in the list archives to find out why soy biodiesel fails to meet the European biodiesel standard. How're you planning to get the oil out of the soy, with hexane? Hardly village-friendly. Beste Keith Kind regards. Isabel. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Dermot That's all?? Umph. Hardly worth the effort. Hi Keith, Thanks for the reply. I'm puzzled by: My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. You haven't really responded to what people have said about that. Your main concern seems to be with what's sentient and what's not. It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not sustainable. I'll try to respond to specific questions. What other kind have there been Dermot? What kind of questions won't you try to respond to? And why don't you just respond to that, just as it is right there above? Your point is in tatters. Were they from you or from Andres? From both, and others, and more recently various comments on your post on whether plants have emotions or not. There's been a lot of discussion, you can't just sidestep it. You've proposed some of the same arguments twice, and had them shot down twice. You've dumped almost the whole of my previous response, have you decided it wasn't specific? I'll put it back again for you, below. Best Keith Regards Dermot Previous: Hello Dermot Hi Keith, I'd like to address some of the points you raised in your reply to me on Oct 2nd. Before we start it may be useful to stress the views we probably have in common and hopefully that the rest of the list have in common as well. 1. Modern intensive farming is unsustainable and is unnecessarily cruel to a wide variety of animals. 2. To combat this cruelty we should boycott the produce of intensively farmed animals thereby forcing farmers to adopt more sustainable and cruelty free methods of farming. 3. We should eat only free range meat or dairy produce. If this could be achieved I believe 90% of the suffering that is inflicted on animals would be eradicated. Regarding #2, intensively farmed is not a clear enough description. Sustainable food-production methods can also be very intensive, such as Ken Hargesheimer's mini-farming or John Jeavons's Biointensive method, or Chinese-type farming methods. Industrialised or concentrated are better terms, or perhaps fossil-fuel farming, since that's what it truly is. Nor does such a narrowly focused boycott make much sense, at least on its own. You should also boycott the produce of industrially grown plants. Though the two are separated in practice (a large part of the problem) they're absolutely part of the same phenomenon, along with the entire food processing and distribution system. You make a mistake by separating animal production as the focus for special attack. There are a number of points which I disagree with you on, the chief among them being that animal inputs are necessary for sustainable agriculture. Sure. I know you don't accept that there is such a thing as sustainable farming without animals but the Vegan Organic Trust in Britain is an organisation that is dedicated to the promotion of stockfree, organic, sustainable farming. Yes I know. I'm unimpressed, I'm afraid. They make the same mistake you do below, that it all remains to be proved, but it ain't so. The burden of proof is on them, but they can't prove it, for the reasons you explain. Same with your previous examples (further below). They are not some crackpot type of organisation that have vague aspirations about veganism. I know that too. Their certification process for declaring farms to be truly organic, stockfree and sustainable is carried out by the SOIL ASSOCIATION'S certifying body. As you are no doubt aware the SOIL ASSOCIATION has an international reputation second to none and I have faith in their integrity. I first worked with the Soil Association more than 20 years ago and I know their work from their founding. I wouldn't say they're second to none, nobody is. I'm afraid I'm not impressed by organic certification. There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. Yes there is. Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is obviously impossible to test that. It's not impossible. You can philosophise about what forever means, but it's demonstrable in practical terms. All we can say is that one system is more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. I didn't claim to have proved it. On the other hand, it is possible to prove that a given agricultural system is unsustainable, if you can show that it uses up one or more of the earth's resources faster than they are being replaced. So your claim Not MY claim! By now you should have gathered at least that this has been established not only through the long cumulative experience of human societies (below) but also by a large body of scientific
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn I can't say what the transesterification might affect in castor oil, but on another list I subscribe to, (clocks) the gentlemen who have cleaned castor oil from the case (preservative? finish?) are currently discussing the method (scraping) and material (solvent) required to try to dissolve the sticky gummy mess that castor oil has left on the case. Also tends to draw the copper out of the brass of the clock works, making the sticky gummy mess green. All vegetable oils do that. Copper catalyses rapid oxidisation and polymerisation. See Copper and SVO: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#copperstudy Castor oil has a lower iodine value than either rapeseed oil or soy (much higher), and is thus more stable - it wouldn't have happened without the copper. Castor oil has excellent lubricity and is a good candidate for biofuel, either biodiesel or SVO. Say Castrol slowly. That's what it started off as. Previous messages: Castrol R or Mobil P, both castor based oils are still the prefered lubricants in the worm/wheel diffs as fitted to Peugeot 203,403,404. Castrol are still selling castor oil for 2-strokes, especially for racing. Best Keith Perhaps the transesterification would change the characteristics of the oil, but I'd want to try test patches before introducing it to a fuel tank, pump, injectors, etc. doug swanson Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hi Isabel I heard today that castor beans are an excellent source of biodiesel. Does anyone know if this is true? Marilyn Er... http://snipurl.com/kia1 biofuel - Search results for 'castor' 255 matches Eg: Brasil is going ahead with great biodiesel project in large scale production such as 4 l/day using peanut oil in cane growing areas in south, medium scale plants palm oil in Amazonian areas .Medium scale prodution using castor oil in North east underdeveloped area in Brasil , mostly by federal and state government. The federal goverments Petrobras is going to install big scale plant based on castor plants that wiil be grown on treated waste water from petroleium production based on caster seeds in dry semiarid areas with less developed area with large poor people . - Pannirselvam, 6 Aug 04 ... The B2 fuel that the government will authorise in November will require an additional 150,000 hectares of oilseeds, which will generate a source of income for 30,000 families of small farmers, said Minister of Agrarian Development Miguel Rossetto. Biodiesel is leading to the promotion of the cultivation of castor beans and other crops in semiarid lands in the northeast, Brazil's poorest region. Projects involving family farms in small rural communities are spreading in the region, opening up possibilities of reducing poverty and curbing the rural exodus to urban slums. The Brazilian Company of Agricultural Research (EMBRAPA), a government network of 40 research centres, has carried out studies to help promote the expansion of castor bean cultivation. Biodiesel based on castor oil will not only serve as fuel, but will also be used to generate electricity in isolated rural communities, at least in the northeastern state of Ceará. (END/2004) Sep 1, 2004 http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=25308 Etc etc etc. Still ain't no best crop. And like jatropha you casn't use the seedcake as feed. Keith Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Note: Forwarded Email Message Below: Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
I assume your talking about the actual fish meat, not some processed catfood called tuna which may or may actually include real fish. I'm not sure where a tuna would get ash, living out in the ocean. Now, tuna does have alot of mercury, due to being high up on the food chain -- look at the FDA recommendations for pregnant women and eating certain fish. I do know that we never fed our cats dry dogfood, because it was alleged to have ash added as a mineral source, which wasn't good for cats' kidneys. On 12/5/05, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: robert luis rabello wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: The question I have is about the theory of tuna and cats. The theory is that there is an excess amount of ash in tuna and that it can cause renal failure in middle aged cats. It is not suppose to make any difference if it was canned or fresh. Have you ever heard of this and is it true? My cats favorite food is tuna, so I am very worried. I feed my cats Science Diet. Before getting the two I now own, my last kitty, a faithful and affectionate companion for her whole life, lived 16 years. She was an outdoor cat who tangled with rattlesnakes, raccoons and poisoned mice! The two I have now are very young, but they thrive on this kind of commercial cat food. at no small cost I might add. But is the extra cost (science diet) justified? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Hi Kim I do give my cats tuna but I give them such a variety of foods and it's rarely ever just straight. Right now, at least 2 of my clients are avid hunters, and I have a freezer full of venison .. just about all the stew meat and ground meat that has come from at least 4 deer .. I'm not a hunter but I do feed raw so I say thank you. I have a butcher within 8 miles that has begun to use all the trim from all their cuts of meats .. chicken necks, chicken backs and wings (ground bones and all) cryo packaged and sold as pet food .. beef (muscle, and all organs meats available - heart, tongue, liver, kidney), pork, lamb, and once or twice some buffalo and some goat. I buy up packages of whatever he has .. the pork was a great success. A deer processor that I pass almost daily will also sell the ground up trim by the case load (about 5 pounds per package in the case), but he also allows anyone to dig through his bone barrel and take what they want. .. these processors PAY the rendering companies to take away their waste .. that's the trim and the bones. The more we take, the less they pay. I like one of the processors better than another because he cuts most of his bones into smaller pieces and I have given my cats some of the softer rib bones. Most of them (I have 5) chew happily away. I raw feed my dogs and my cats .. also .. ground up green tripe (a bit hard on the human that has to smell it) is considered an almost perfect food for dogs (my cats just sniff it) but a great many people in Europe and it's catching on here. I buy it from a kennel who buys by the truck load .. hundreds of pounds at a time .. and pay something like $1.00 a pound. There is no reason the cats wouldn't eat it .. but cats being cats do make up their own minds about these things. If you stop to think about it, fish would not be a daily diet of most wild cats. Some would probably go their lifetime without ever tasting it. Only those who had territories around rivers and lakes and had learned how to become successful fisher cats (or dogs) Tuna, usually being a deep water fish would probably never been on their menu. Mine have had tuna, salmon, fluke, pike, and trout .. but they have also had pizza, meatloaf, and egg salad .. plus bits out of my can of sardines with olives in olive oil on crackers. I personally like sardines and eat a can a couple times a week. What I don't finish, I mix up on a little plate and pour the remaining oil over the top. The result of this action generally leaves me no room to move my feet. My cats are pretty much free fed .. I'm out of the house so much .. I couldn't tell you who eats what, but they are all good weight, with soft shining fur .. bright eyes with an absolute minimum of fleas and ticks .. which isn't bad for indoor/outdoor cats. A couple of plates are put down twice a day .. when I come back home, if there's any left (it is raw) I throw out. Later in the evening, a second feeding is put down and I generally go to work on the computer so, once again, I don't really see who's eating what. My 2 older ladies of the caninine class are a bit competitive over food, so when their food goes down, I stand in the middle and wait. .. they also have all all the fish mentioned plus the pizza etc .. along with bagels and cream cheese. .. another non-natural diet. Mary Lynn Mary Lynn Schmidt ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification . Behavior Problems . Ordained Minister . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Radionics . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Herbs. . Polarity . Reiki . Spiritual Travel The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:06:01 -0600 Greetings, Thank you for a wonderful post. I am fortunate that I found a country vet that treats my animals my way, and no vaccinations. [My cat is allergic to them.] My animals eat raw and have recovered from all their diseases and are now healthy. My vet actually learned from this and is recommending raw to patients he think will listen. I daily count my blessings. The question I have is about the theory of tuna and cats. The theory is that there is an excess amount of ash in tuna and that it can cause renal failure in middle aged cats. It is not suppose to make any difference if it was canned or fresh. Have you ever heard of this and is it true? My cats favorite food is tuna, so I am very worried. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:17 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: I tend to lay low .. I'll talk theory with anyone but I rarely stand up and state that I DO THAT!! I'm a practitioner of many alternative healing modalities and work mostly on animals .. but the majority of modalities cross species lines easily (herbs can be iffy). If a
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
robert luis rabello wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: The question I have is about the theory of tuna and cats. The theory is that there is an excess amount of ash in tuna and that it can cause renal failure in middle aged cats. It is not suppose to make any difference if it was canned or fresh. Have you ever heard of this and is it true? My cats favorite food is tuna, so I am very worried. I feed my cats Science Diet. Before getting the two I now own, my last kitty, a faithful and affectionate companion for her whole life, lived 16 years. She was an outdoor cat who tangled with rattlesnakes, raccoons and poisoned mice! The two I have now are very young, but they thrive on this kind of commercial cat food. at no small cost I might add. But is the extra cost (science diet) justified? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
bob allen wrote: at no small cost I might add. But is the extra cost (science diet) justified? I've never known a cat to live as long as she did (I got her when she was a little over a year old, and she lived with me for 16 years). A 9 kilo bag of Science Diet lasts about a month and a half (feeding two animals) and costs a little over $30 on sale. Maybe I'm just affluent enough that this doesn't seem like any big deal. Perhaps you're right about the extra cost not being justifiable, given the lack of empirical data concerning longevity and health benefits, but I can't see how feeding a cat tuna from a can would be any cheaper. I once knew a woman who fed her two Manx cats nothing but horse meat, and THAT seemed expensive to me! My cats also eat leftover meat from our table. My sweetheart likes fresh lamb (which smells absolutely disgusting to me!) because it was a part of her diet growing up, but nobody else in the family will eat it. The cats get leftover turkey at Thanksgiving and any fish that's been in the refrigerator long enough to turn the nose of a human away. Mostly, though, they eat Science Diet. They're healthy, they're active and they seem content. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Seperating glycerine
Message: 2Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:26:52 +0100From: Bioclaire Nederland [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine mistake ! To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Thanks Pieter for the explanationit explains allot. I must get myself a chemistry book. If I used say two diffrent batches of glycerine with diffrent amounts of Naoh what would you do in that case or if you didnt know the exact amount of NaohIs there an indicator I could use. Thank you, John I wrote :In grams :((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) -- ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) - 203 = 203So the reaction is equal now.That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used.This should be : 98 grams of H3PO4 (is one mole) for 3 moles of NaOH which is 120 grams. Not 40 grams40 grams is 1 mole. I hope I can give you an explaination in english, because I am from Holland :You start with the amount of NaOH you used to make your batch of BD.For example 5 kg for 800 liters of BD.So you use 5 kg NaOH, which you will all find back in the bottom layer residue. 1 mole of NaOH weighs 23 + 16 + 1 makes 40 grams.23 + 16 + 1 are the mole weights of the elements. You can find them in te periodic system of elements in every schoolbook of chemistry.Now you mix with phosphoric acid, but what percentage ? Phosphoric acid is H3PO4, which has a mole weight of (3x1) + 31 + (4x16) =98 gramsWhat you should try to reach is a complete reaction between the acid and the NaOHThe reaction would be : H3PO4 +NaOH -- Na3PO4 + H20 Now make it equal, so it gets to :H3PO4 + 3NaOH -- Na3PO4 + 3H2OIn grams :((3x1)+16+64) + (3x40) -- ((3x23)+16+64) + (3x18) - 203 = 203So the reaction is equal now.That means you need one mole of H3PO4 + 3 moles of NaOH to react completely and split your residue. As you will understand now, I hope, you need 98 grams of H3PO4 for every 40 grams of NaOH you used.Of course if you have a phosphoric acid of let's say 75%, it means that if you take 1 kilo of that, you have 750 grams of phosphoric acid. All together, if you don't take enough acid, you won't split your residue completely, but if you take too much acid, you will find the surplus somewhere in the FFA's , or maybe on the bottom, or maybe solved in either of them, or maybe. I hope I helped you with this.Greetings,Pieter - Original Message - From: john owens To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: [Biofuel] seperating Glycerine Hi, I did couple of tests on glycerin separation with the titration method on JTF with different results. Test One; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shacked vigorously There was separation with 3 layers about 60/30/10 within about 15 minutes. FFa Glycerin and fluffy white sodium phosphate Test two; 250ml byproduct 10ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I then added 5ml phosphoric shaked vigorously I added more phosphoric to see what would happen. there was separation with In about one minute with two layers about 50/50 with creamy brown stuff on the bottom. FFa on top I then added more phosphoric until I got separation of a reddish colour onbottom. this has being sitting for 4 hours or so. In the jar there is about (40/60 (ffa/glycerin) with a very fine white layer on the bottom. I made a mistake with the last mail. There is a greater amount of glycerin in test two and less ffa Could any one explain to me what is happening ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Ok, now I'm having to really dig back into my memory here. There is something like 5 companies that basically control the distribution of food world wide .. each and every single one of those 5 companies have pet food subsidiaries. These companies have contracts to purchase produce directly from the farmers fields before plantings. These companies also have contracts with large rendering plants. A rendering plant in turn has contracts with restaurants, hotel chains, slaughter houses .. bring in something called a down cow .. A downed cow is an animal that has become so sick from all the hormones, antibiotics, food growth additives, milk enhancing drugs that the body has so totally shut down that it falls down and can not get up. If, with a cattle probe up its ass, and perhaps some wenches, the workers at the slaughter house can manage to get this cow on her feet, she can then be slaughtered and her meat can be sold For Human Consumption .. if that cow can not get to her feet, the slaughter house will loose money because that meat is now Unfit For Human Consumption .. I know a few former meat inspectors who no longer will eat meat .. Everything dead can be sold .. dead animals from the zoo, city pound, road kill, unusable parts of any slaughtered animal .. and downed cow. Piles of dead animals are brought to the plant and dumped .. big tractors with plows are then used to shovel these piles into the pot. Waste inside the dead animal is NOT REMOVED .. that would require time and would also be less to sell. Rendering places whole animals and animal parts into a big grinding machine that actually grinds until it's liquid .. a big pile of brown stinking liquid that smells for miles and miles around a rendering plant. Companies buy this stinking liquid .. they make soap (look at those cute little wrapped bars of soap in the bathroom the next time you stay in a hotel), fertilizer, animal feed ..PET FOOD .. personal cosmetic products. When a food company buys up the different products, that can take .. say corn and start with frozen, fresh corn .. then drop down to canned corn .. then drop down to creamed corn .. then drop down to frozen pot pies .. corn chowder soap .. then drop down .. until you have no useable parts left .. so we can now make pet food. If a pet food states pure beef and organic vegetables .. it would be impossible to determine if it were pure beef .. the rendering run may have been 1000 head of cows .. you would have the whole body with or without some hides, hooves, destroyed kidney and livers, cancerous tissue, sores .. it all goes into the same pot. .. and the organic vegetables can be what has been swept up from the floor, and what ever has been left over that can not be used in any better product. There are some reasonable good companies that take pride in what they sell. These are small companies doing generally a comparatively small amount of business. If they get too profitable then there is generally a buy out by one of the big 5. White Wave (I think that's the name) was an extremely successful producer of Soy Milk. They controlled something like 70% of the Soy Milk market. A law suit was filed by the Dairy Association against the use of the word milk .. which they lost because it just got so boggled down .. Coconut Milk, Mother's milk, Milk and Honey .. historically, the word milk had been around much too long for the Dairy Industry to claim it .. but they tried at a substantial cost to both themselves and to White Wave, leaving White Wave financially wobbling. When they lost against White Wave .. they bought the company .. now the Dairy Association controls the Dairy industry and a large portion of the Soy Milk industry. The reason you see Science Diet sold in so many Veterinarian offices is because Science Diet is the one who actually provides the money to the vet school to have a course of animal nutrition. The text, the books, instructions and instructors are provided (I believe) to ALL the Veterinarian Schools .. plus grants and scholarships for Vets by Science Diet The institutes of higher learning have something like a 5 or 10 hour (volunteer) course on animal nutrition. .. I'd rather give them table scraps .. or my left over pizza. The pet food industry has been around for less than 100 years. Our dogs and cats have been around for millions of years. When I was born, my grandfather had a hunting dog that was about three or four years old .. that dog died when I was 15 .. and unless through accident .. most of the dogs live to quite an advanced age. Today 7 and 10 is considered time to start watching for cancer and/or liver failure to begin and it's so unusual to hear of a big dog living to 12 and 14 Village dogs in Africa .. once again, unless through an accident .. live longer than our American pampered pets. Mary Lynn Mary Lynn Schmidt ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification .
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Uuugh. Gotta love rendering plants There's one about 50 miles NE of where I live. Usually the wind blows the other way, but when it turns around, it stinks... When we raised rabbits, we would leave the extra parts up on the hillside after butchering them, and they'd be gone by the next day. The ravens would usually be there waiting -- they could see the butchering operation, and they're pretty smart birds to learn the pattern. Generally, civilized society recoils at taking old animal parts and just dumping them on the ground for the ravens to clean up, but compared to the rendering plant story, I think it's a whole lot less disturbing. On 12/5/05, Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, now I'm having to really dig back into my memory here. There is something like 5 companies that basically control the distribution of food world wide .. each and every single one of those 5 companies have pet food subsidiaries. These companies have contracts to purchase produce directly from the farmers fields before plantings. These companies also have contracts with large rendering plants. A rendering plant in turn has contracts with restaurants, hotel chains, slaughter houses .. bring in something called a down cow .. A downed cow is an animal that has become so sick from all the hormones, antibiotics, food growth additives, milk enhancing drugs that the body has so totally shut down that it falls down and can not get up. If, with a cattle probe up its ass, and perhaps some wenches, the workers at the slaughter house can manage to get this cow on her feet, she can then be slaughtered and her meat can be sold For Human Consumption .. if that cow can not get to her feet, the slaughter house will loose money because that meat is now Unfit For Human Consumption .. I know a few former meat inspectors who no longer will eat meat .. Everything dead can be sold .. dead animals from the zoo, city pound, road kill, unusable parts of any slaughtered animal .. and downed cow. Piles of dead animals are brought to the plant and dumped .. big tractors with plows are then used to shovel these piles into the pot. Waste inside the dead animal is NOT REMOVED .. that would require time and would also be less to sell. Rendering places whole animals and animal parts into a big grinding machine that actually grinds until it's liquid .. a big pile of brown stinking liquid that smells for miles and miles around a rendering plant. Companies buy this stinking liquid .. they make soap (look at those cute little wrapped bars of soap in the bathroom the next time you stay in a hotel), fertilizer, animal feed ..PET FOOD .. personal cosmetic products. When a food company buys up the different products, that can take .. say corn and start with frozen, fresh corn .. then drop down to canned corn .. then drop down to creamed corn .. then drop down to frozen pot pies .. corn chowder soap .. then drop down .. until you have no useable parts left .. so we can now make pet food. If a pet food states pure beef and organic vegetables .. it would be impossible to determine if it were pure beef .. the rendering run may have been 1000 head of cows .. you would have the whole body with or without some hides, hooves, destroyed kidney and livers, cancerous tissue, sores .. it all goes into the same pot. .. and the organic vegetables can be what has been swept up from the floor, and what ever has been left over that can not be used in any better product. There are some reasonable good companies that take pride in what they sell. These are small companies doing generally a comparatively small amount of business. If they get too profitable then there is generally a buy out by one of the big 5. White Wave (I think that's the name) was an extremely successful producer of Soy Milk. They controlled something like 70% of the Soy Milk market. A law suit was filed by the Dairy Association against the use of the word milk .. which they lost because it just got so boggled down .. Coconut Milk, Mother's milk, Milk and Honey .. historically, the word milk had been around much too long for the Dairy Industry to claim it .. but they tried at a substantial cost to both themselves and to White Wave, leaving White Wave financially wobbling. When they lost against White Wave .. they bought the company .. now the Dairy Association controls the Dairy industry and a large portion of the Soy Milk industry. The reason you see Science Diet sold in so many Veterinarian offices is because Science Diet is the one who actually provides the money to the vet school to have a course of animal nutrition. The text, the books, instructions and instructors are provided (I believe) to ALL the Veterinarian Schools .. plus grants and scholarships for Vets by Science Diet The institutes of higher learning have something like a 5 or 10 hour (volunteer) course on animal nutrition. .. I'd rather give
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Marylynn Schmidt wrote: big snip of relevant background content Rendering places whole animals and animal parts into a big grinding machine that actually grinds until it's liquid .. a big pile of brown stinking liquid that smells for miles and miles around a rendering plant. Companies buy this stinking liquid .. they make soap (look at those cute little wrapped bars of soap in the bathroom the next time you stay in a hotel), fertilizer, animal feed ..PET FOOD .. personal cosmetic products. Most of us here oppose the factory food production paradigm. I hadn't thought of how this applies to pet food and appreciate the insight you've brought into this discussion. If a pet food states pure beef and organic vegetables .. it would be impossible to determine if it were pure beef .. the rendering run may have been 1000 head of cows .. you would have the whole body with or without some hides, hooves, destroyed kidney and livers, cancerous tissue, sores .. it all goes into the same pot. In the wild, most herd ungulates can easily outrun their predators. Occasionally, chance and circumstance will lead to a healthy adult specimen being hunted down, but more often, it's the sickly, the weak, the old and the young who succumb to predation. Old and weak animals culled from the herd in this manner keeps the population in check and often prevents mass starvation during the winter months when food is scarce. In the wild, therefore, sickly and weak animals provide food for predators. The relative shortness of a prey animal's intestine serves to limit exposure to biomagnified toxins that occur naturally in the environment. (I'm not referring to the industrial nasties that WE put into the ecosystem.) A predator eats and eliminates, allowing detritus organisms to break down problematic disease and toxin residues, as they have done for however many billion years they've been on the earth. So, to play devil's advocate (or maybe God's advocate, depending on your point of view) for a moment: What would be the problem with a predatory animal that happens to be my pet eating the rendered residue of a sickly bovine, if in the wild, that same creature (that is, the ungulate) would most likely succumb to predation anyway? snip background information concerning corporate and industry advocacy group control over food production The reason you see Science Diet sold in so many Veterinarian offices is because Science Diet is the one who actually provides the money to the vet school to have a course of animal nutrition. We face a related problem in the pharmaceutical industry, where education on treatment regimens are often provided by companies who sell therapeutic drugs. I've never bought Science Diet at a vet. The pet food industry has been around for less than 100 years. Our dogs and cats have been around for millions of years. And that's part of my point. During that time, dogs and cats have been, by design and necessity, less picky about what they eat than we tend to be. When I was born, my grandfather had a hunting dog that was about three or four years old .. that dog died when I was 15 .. and unless through accident .. most of the dogs live to quite an advanced age. I've heard similar stories. Large dogs tend to have a longer life span than small cats, do they not? Seventeen years is a LONG time for an outdoor cat to live. Today 7 and 10 is considered time to start watching for cancer and/or liver failure to begin and it's so unusual to hear of a big dog living to 12 and 14 Am I understanding correctly, based upon the outline of your argument, that this constitutes evidence that factory food production for our pets is responsible for the decline in pet longevity? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/30/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Ken That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. You're quite welcome. Your food shed, that's great! Footprints and food sheds. I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another writer. A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives. Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it. I found it to be very interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get another look. Based solely on this article I really don't see anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being sustainable. It appears to point to both organic farming with and without animals as being sustainable. In my opinion, it clearly shows advantages of organic farming both with or without animals. But you all can be the judge of that. The Institute of Science in Society: Science Society Sustainability http://www.i-sis.org.uk General Enquiries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website/Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ISIS Director [EMAIL PROTECTED] This article can be found on the I-SIS website at http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OBCA.php ISIS Press Release 12/09/05 Organic Agriculture Enters Mainstream ** Organic Yields on Par with Conventional and Ahead During Drought Years But by far the greatest gains are due to savings on damages to public health and the environment estimated at more than US$59 billion a year Dr. Mae-Wan Ho puts the nail on the coffin on industrial agriculture A fully referenced version of this article is posted on ISIS members' website http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/OBCAFull.php. Details here http://www.i-sis.org.uk/membership.php Myths die hard Scientists who should know better - if only they had kept up with the literature - continue to tell the world that organic agriculture invariably means lower yields, especially compared to industrial high input agriculture, even when this has long been proven false (see for example, Organic agriculture fights back SiS 16 [1]; http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis16.php Organic production works, SiS 25 [2]). http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis25.php Researchers led by David Pimenthal, ecologist and agricultural scientist at Cornell University, New York, have now reviewed data from long-term field investigations and confirmed that organic yields are no different from conventional under normal growing conditions, but that they are far ahead during drought years [3]. The reasons are well known: organic soils have greater capacity to retain water as well as nutrients such as nitrogen. Organic soils are also more efficient carbon sinks, and organic management saves on fossil fuel, both of which are important for mitigating global warming. But by far the greatest gains are in savings on externalised costs associated with conventional industrial farming, which are estimated to exceed 25 percent of the total market value of United States' agricultural output. Long-term field trials at Rodale Institute From 1981 through 2002, field investigations were conducted at Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania on 6.1 ha. Three different cropping systems: conventional, animal manure and legume-based organic, and legume-based organic. Plots (18 x 92 m) were split into three (6 x 92 m) subplots, which are large enough for farm-scale equipment to be used for operations and harvesting. The main plots were separated with a 1.5 m grass strip to minimize cross movement of soil, fertilizers, and pesticides. Each of the three cropping systems was replicated eight times. The conventional system based on synthetic fertilizer and herbicide use, represented a typical cash-grain 5-year crop rotation (corn, corn, soybeans, corn, soybeans) that reflects commercial conventional operations in the region and throughout the Midwest. According to USDA 2003 data, there are more than 40 million ha in this production system in North America. Crop residues were left on the surface of the land to conserve soil and water; but no cover crops were used during the non-growing season. The organic animal-based cropping represented a typical livestock operation in which grain crops were grown for animal feed, not cash sale. This rotation was more complex: corn, soybeans, corn silage, wheat, and red clover-alfalfa hay, as well as a rye cover crop before corn silage and soybeans. Aged cattle manure served as the nitrogen source and applied at 5.6 tonnes per ha (dry), 2 years out of every 5 immediately before ploughing the soil for corn. Additional nitrogen was supplied by the plough-down of legume-hay crops. The total nitrogen applied per ha was about 40 kilograms per year or 198 kg per ha for any given year with a corn crop. Weed control relied on mechanical cultivation, weed-suppressing crop rotations, and relay cropping, in which one crop acted as living
[Biofuel] PLEASE READ - was Re: US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
The branch of this thread concerning Mike Weaver's proposal to start a paid-membership advocacy group is now closed, see my previous message. No further discussion on this please. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Biofuels lobbying efforts - re: Guvmint meddling
Hello everyone, I am a novice BD maker and have been lurking on the list for a few months now. Thanks to you all for lively discussions of useful topics and actionable information. On the topic of lobbying efforts and government relations in general, Keith's cautionary post struck a chord with me. I agree in principle with the notion of collective bargaining. A united voice will be stronger than a single one, especially in a political context. The time may come when vested economic powers and their political allies will perceive a strong enough threat from grass-roots power producers to try to strangle us with regulations. However, having grown up in the midst of political strife and the civil rights movement, I find myself more interested in making predatory economic and political powers irrelevant to my systems rather than fighting them. It seems to me that building solutions is inherently more sustainable, defensible, and rewarding at a local level. I worry that devoting time, energy, and money at the abstract layer of political activism is contending the issue on their turf with all the attendant disadvantages. I don't mean to discount the real threat of intrusive government regulation. I just wonder if we wouldn't be better served by building systems that work, creating value, and attracting a network of allies that may act to protect their interests as well as our own when the challenges inevitably arise. -- Regards, Jim Worthy ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Mike snip Frankly, I'm amazed at the amount of flak that has shown up from *this* side of the aisle. There's no aisle here. I haven't noticed you contributing anything other than negative comments. Seems you didn't catch him on a bad day Kim. What are you trying to say Mike? Kim has contributed nothing but positive comments - she positively disagrees with you and she says why. I do hope you're referring specifically to this thread. Whether you are or not, it's not up to you to stand in judgment of another list member's contribution, and certainly not to be negative about it. Kindly make yourself clear. I think you owe Kim an apology. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner -Mike Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am sorry you took offence, but many good grass roots based things have happened without someone getting a full time paycheck out of it. For starters, we have legal raw milk dairies in Texas. If you are planning on creating yourself a job with everyone's funds, please have the honesty to say so and tell us what you consider a reasonsable salary. A list of qualification would also be appreciated. I am not sure that anyone who snipes at honest questions is what we need to front such a movement, but I may have caught you on a bad day. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:22 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote: Jeez, you're right! How simple! I wanted the money for myself! Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies! And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone. Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can tell by the last energy bill. There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going on when we can bombard Washington with postcards! And I will get right on that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or congress calls there will be an actual person to answer it. May I forward the calls to you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5? Thanks! I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage. It just runs itself! Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited themselves, and hopped right up on the website. Which, by the way, is not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits. But I guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking for BD info. There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder the financial burden. I've been consulting in and working the non-profit area for 20 years. I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding. It dies. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a member of an advocacy group. I am a member of several and the membership is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with. Something as simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will work. Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people. What is the money for? Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? -Mike Doug Turner wrote: snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Hello Mike Sorry I haven't managed to reply to this before now, I really hope you didn't take my silence as concurrence, because it was anything but concurrence. We had another biodiesel seminar here yesterday, two days' hard work as usual with setting it all up, we've had more people here today with other local JtF projects, along with the usual workload overdose (we run out of time every day), and what you said needed more than a ten-second soundbyte. First, you're being somewhat disingenuous in what you've said about funding and Journey to Forever. And about Journey to Forever in general - you seriously think it's just a website? The website is really just one Journey to Forever project among many, biofuels and biodiesel are a project within that project, as is the Biofuel list. It's not a very meaningful measure because it's integrated, but together these sub-projects probably comprise about 20-25% of what we do. So far the whole project has been extremely successful, before we've even gone anywhere yet. It's main thrust is against poverty and hunger, and the means is to help people and communities to empower themselves. We get a constant stream of feedback on all fronts - ie on all the different sections of the website - from people and groups who've used our resources to do exactly that, hundreds of them, and we have good indication that there are many more we don't hear from. To take two examples that both came up yesterday here on the list - Lillie, who saved her life, and you can bet she's not going to keep quiet about that, and Andres Yver, who discovered ley farming here, sold up his place in Chile, moved to Argentina, found a farm in a poor community and started a development project on sustainable farming. Lillie's not the only one who's found life-saving information at or via Journey to Forever, and Andres's story is amazing but he's far from the only one who's been galvanized into taking a whole new direction. We provide information you can use, using a wide variety of different means. Often they're solutions we've developed or adapted ourselves. We're involved in creating networks and linking networks, here in Japan and all over the world, from local to regional to global. We start things, we encourage them to grow, when they grow like weeds and get suitably out of control we can move on to the next thing. Such as Handmade Biodiesel here in Japan, to mention one aspect I've mentioned here before - the idea that ordinary people can make their own biodiesel didn't exist here previously, very few people had ever heard of biodiesel anyway (virtually no journalists had heard of it). Now local and home brewers are a rapidly growing phenomenon, and a factor that will have to be taken seriously here in the future as Japan's biofuels use evolves. These days we're just as involved with all the spin-offs - as we all know, making your own biod a very empowering thing to discover. It's not my intention to trumpet praise for Journey to Forever, but it obviously needs a little spelling out just what this project that has no funding and according to you should therefore have died at birth is and does beyond hosting a mere website. So now, to some of your points, not in order: 10. JTF has a huge amount of good information, but would it be consulted by lawmakers? I doubt it. You're wrong. Lawmakers and bureaucrats, and rather more than that, in the US and elsewhere, are list members right here, quite apart from the rather surprising range of people who contact Journey to Forever. With all due respect, they're most welcome as individual list members but otherwise so what? I'm more interested in the local authority people who join. That's what you should be doing - savvy local biodieselers sorting out any problems that arise, if and when, with local officials, face to face: Hey, your daughter goes to school with my daughter! End of problem. And sod Washington, and the NBB. And NBB-lookalikes, frankly. Having constituents show up and discuss the issue with you or your staff is very powerful. If you play your cards right, they call you, instead of the NBB for BD info. Sure, if you want to play the game their way. Losing game though, that's not how biofuels wins. Three rules: local, local and local. (I'll come back to that, that's only half the rule.) 9. I agree JTF is an incredibly useful device; this idea would not have germinated without it. I also don't doubt that it can help shape and inform opinion. Heck, I spent hours on it myself... But you said such organisations die. I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding. It dies. That's what you said. I don't think what I've said about us above could aptly be described as the work of a project that died, do you? You said they die without funding. The example of JtF, a project without funding, that has actually rejected offers of funding in order to preserve its
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Greetings, I am speaking of the actual fish meat, but when questions the girl who lost her cat was using a tuna cat food, although she swears it looked and tasted just like a can of fish. My cat also eats raw rabbit, chicken and emu, but he does prefer fish. Now I am able to get sardines, in spring water with no smoking, I do give him those. I buy Mackerel for the dogs, but he doesn't like it. Sir Kitty Kitty is 13, a rescue at age 2 whom was so badly starved that at first I thought he was a pregnant female, the bloat was so bad. We have had him on distilled water for over 10 years now since our well has a high salt content. I would love him to live till at least 20. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:45 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote: I assume your talking about the actual fish meat, not some processed catfood called tuna which may or may actually include real fish. I'm not sure where a tuna would get ash, living out in the ocean. Now, tuna does have alot of mercury, due to being high up on the food chain -- look at the FDA recommendations for pregnant women and eating certain fish. I do know that we never fed our cats dry dogfood, because it was alleged to have ash added as a mineral source, which wasn't good for cats' kidneys. On 12/5/05, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: robert luis rabello wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: The question I have is about the theory of tuna and cats. The theory is that there is an excess amount of ash in tuna and that it can cause renal failure in middle aged cats. It is not suppose to make any difference if it was canned or fresh. Have you ever heard of this and is it true? My cats favorite food is tuna, so I am very worried. I feed my cats Science Diet. Before getting the two I now own, my last kitty, a faithful and affectionate companion for her whole life, lived 16 years. She was an outdoor cat who tangled with rattlesnakes, raccoons and poisoned mice! The two I have now are very young, but they thrive on this kind of commercial cat food. at no small cost I might add. But is the extra cost (science diet) justified? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Thanks Mary Lyn, I too feed a variety, but mine comes from whatever we are butchering on the farm. Sir Kitty Kitty is a picky eater. He will not eat pork, goat, or catfish. No offal, no matter what animal it came from. Eggs only with cottage cheese, etc. However, I have found that if I insist he eat something, like store bought ground beef, he immediately brings it back up. The starvation did take its toll and he is missing some teeth, from nutritional deprevations. Thank you for making me feel better, I will continue to give him the occasional can of tuna, just not too much. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:48 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote: Hi Kim I do give my cats tuna but I give them such a variety of foods and it's rarely ever just straight. Right now, at least 2 of my clients are avid hunters, and I have a freezer full of venison .. just about all the stew meat and ground meat that has come from at least 4 deer .. I'm not a hunter but I do feed raw so I say thank you. I have a butcher within 8 miles that has begun to use all the trim from all their cuts of meats .. chicken necks, chicken backs and wings (ground bones and all) cryo packaged and sold as pet food .. beef (muscle, and all organs meats available - heart, tongue, liver, kidney), pork, lamb, and once or twice some buffalo and some goat. I buy up packages of whatever he has .. the pork was a great success. A deer processor that I pass almost daily will also sell the ground up trim by the case load (about 5 pounds per package in the case), but he also allows anyone to dig through his bone barrel and take what they want. .. these processors PAY the rendering companies to take away their waste .. that's the trim and the bones. The more we take, the less they pay. I like one of the processors better than another because he cuts most of his bones into smaller pieces and I have given my cats some of the softer rib bones. Most of them (I have 5) chew happily away. I raw feed my dogs and my cats .. also .. ground up green tripe (a bit hard on the human that has to smell it) is considered an almost perfect food for dogs (my cats just sniff it) but a great many people in Europe and it's catching on here. I buy it from a kennel who buys by the truck load .. hundreds of pounds at a time .. and pay something like $1.00 a pound. There is no reason the cats wouldn't eat it .. but cats being cats do make up their own minds about these things. If you stop to think about it, fish would not be a daily diet of most wild cats. Some would probably go their lifetime without ever tasting it. Only those who had territories around rivers and lakes and had learned how to become successful fisher cats (or dogs) Tuna, usually being a deep water fish would probably never been on their menu. Mine have had tuna, salmon, fluke, pike, and trout .. but they have also had pizza, meatloaf, and egg salad .. plus bits out of my can of sardines with olives in olive oil on crackers. I personally like sardines and eat a can a couple times a week. What I don't finish, I mix up on a little plate and pour the remaining oil over the top. The result of this action generally leaves me no room to move my feet. My cats are pretty much free fed .. I'm out of the house so much .. I couldn't tell you who eats what, but they are all good weight, with soft shining fur .. bright eyes with an absolute minimum of fleas and ticks .. which isn't bad for indoor/outdoor cats. A couple of plates are put down twice a day .. when I come back home, if there's any left (it is raw) I throw out. Later in the evening, a second feeding is put down and I generally go to work on the computer so, once again, I don't really see who's eating what. My 2 older ladies of the caninine class are a bit competitive over food, so when their food goes down, I stand in the middle and wait. .. they also have all all the fish mentioned plus the pizza etc .. along with bagels and cream cheese. .. another non-natural diet. Mary Lynn Mary Lynn Schmidt ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification . Behavior Problems . Ordained Minister . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Radionics . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Herbs. . Polarity . Reiki . Spiritual Travel The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:06:01 -0600 Greetings, Thank you for a wonderful post. I am fortunate that I found a country vet that treats my animals my way, and no vaccinations. [My cat is allergic to them.] My animals eat raw and have recovered from all their diseases and are now healthy. My vet actually learned from this and is recommending raw to patients he think will listen. I daily count my blessings. The question I have is about the theory of tuna and
Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas
Hello Doug, Isabel, Edible provenances of Jatropha curcas from Veracruz and Quintana Roo States of Mexico were investigated by Makkar, Becker and Schmook of the University of Hohenheim and found to be non toxic to humans after roasting. Phorbol esters, the major toxic constituents of Jatropha, were altogether absent in three of the seed samples and the contents of trypsin inhibitors, phorbol esters, phytate were all lower in the roasted nuts, which tasted like roasted peanuts. However, lectin activity was not reduced by roasting. They concluded that this non-toxic variety could be cultivated in developing countries for their edible oil, and seedcake as fodder. http://www.jatropha.de/schmook1.htm The presence ofa new tumor promoter in theseed oil of JatrophacurcasL has been reported in theJapanese Journal of Cancer Research by Hirota M, M Suttajit et al from Thailand but there is not much else besides this singular study. A debate is now on in the new state of Chattisgarh in India about the advisability of cultivating Jatropha because of this. http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/113032/1/1897 Those interested in Jatropha would do well to visit www.jatropha.de run by the redoubtable Reinhard Henning (who incidentally, used to post to this list- please see archives) andThe Centre for Jatropha Promotion www.jatrophaworld.com The former site provides links to Jatropha developments in Egypt, Ethiopia, Ghana, Madagascar, Mali, Malawi, Namibia, Republique de Cote de Ivoire, Senegal, South Africa, Sudan, Tanzania, Tunisia and Uganda besides other countries. Regards balaji - Original Message - From: lres1 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas Maybe some one there can help here as well. There are or seem to be two thoughts on the growing of Physic nut/Jatropha Curcas. One is that the Asian variety has a Carcinogenic property producing cells in skin tissue from contact with the plant or some parts thereof. The second is that the type found in Mexico does not have the above character. Is this amyth? Doug - Original Message - From: isabel taylor To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:00 AM Subject: [Biofuel] jatropha curcas ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameNo virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-*** Hi Keith It seems as if you don't think it is a good idea to use Jatropha as a source to produce bio diesel from? When I originally posed the question I only received a few messages and none of them was negative. Maybe I missed something! As I originally explained we know nothing about producing bio diesel and that is whywe posted our original questions and gave a brief explanation why we though it would be best to use jatropha. We have literally read every article we can find about producing bio diesel and to date have not found in our opinion any crop better suited for us to produce bio diesel from, as a matter fact it seems from what we have read that jatropha is the number one choice world wide to produce bio diesel from. You obviously have a lot of experience knowledge regarding producing bio diesel as well as what to use to do so. Therefore If you believe jatropha is not the way to go it would be greatly appreciated if you would sayso why you think so, because as I have said before we are asking foradvice and if youhave reasonsto believethat jatropha is unsuitable I would like to know about themso as to enable us to make a fully enlightened decision. Kind regards. Isabel. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
[Biofuel] Cuts to the Environment
Does anyone see anything positive on the right?Mike __ Cuts to Clean Water State Revolving Fund (amount the state will lose after taking inflation into account)Source: http://www.nationalpriorities.org/ Alabama -$3,277,000Alaska -$1,754,000American Samoa -$263,000Arizona -$1,979,000Arkansas -$1,917,000California -$20,958,000Colorado -$2,344,000Connecticut -$3,590,000Delaware -$1,439,000District of Columbia -$1,439,000Florida -$9,892,000Georgia -$4,955,000Guam -$190,000Hawaii -$2,270,000Idaho -$1,439,000Illinois -$13,253,000Indiana -$7,062,000Iowa -$3,966,000 Kansas -$2,645,000Kentucky -$3,730,000Louisiana -$3,221,000Maine -$2,268,000Maryland -$7,088,000Massachusetts -$9,949,000Michigan -$12,600,000Minnesota -$5,386,000Mississippi -$2,640,000Missouri -$8,124,000Montana -$1,439,000Nebraska -$1,499,000Nevada -$1,439,000New Hampshire -$2,928,000New Jersey -$11,975,000New Mexico -$1,439,000New York -$32,344,000North Carolina -$5,289,000North Dakota -$1,439,000Northern Mariana Island -$122,000Ohio -$16,497,000Oklahoma -$2,368,000Oregon -$3,310,000Pennsylvania -$11,608,000Puerto Rico -$3,822,000Rhode Island -$1,968,000South Carolina -$3,002,000South Dakota -$1,439,000Tennessee -$4,257,000Texas -$13,394,000Total -$293,780,000Undistributed National -$4,407,000Utah -$1,544,000Vermont -$1,439,000Virgin Islands, U.S. -$153,000Virginia -$5,997,000Washington -$5,096,000West Virginia -$4,568,000Wisconsin -$7,922,000Wyoming -$1,439,000___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:57:35 -0800 Marylynn Schmidt wrote: So, to play devil's advocate (or maybe God's advocate, depending on your point of view) for a moment: What would be the problem with a predatory animal that happens to be my pet eating the rendered residue of a sickly bovine, if in the wild, that same creature (that is, the ungulate) would most likely succumb to predation anyway? Answers in caps because they stand out .. I'm not yelling. A PREY ANIMAL THAT IS KILLED BY A PREDATOR WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE A SICK ANIMAL .. IT COULD BE YOUNG .. IT COULD BE OLD .. IT COULD BE INJURED. IF, ON OCCASION EATING A SICK ANIMAL, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WOULD HAVE A GREAT LASTING EFFECT IF NON-SICK ANIMALS (young, old, injured) WERE ALSO ON THE MENU. HOW MANY MACDONALDS HAMBURGERS HAS THE AVERAGE CHILD EATEN IN A WEEK .. IN 2 WEEKS? BUT YES, I DO BELIEVE THAT I HAVE READ (CAN'T SWEAR TO IT) ABOUT SOME HUNTERS COMING ACROSS COYOTES THAT APPEARED TO HAVE THAT WOBBLING DISEASE SOME DEER AND ELK HAVE DEVELOPED (LIKE MAD COW) IN THE GENERAL AREA WHERE THERE WAS THE ORIGINAL OUTBREAK. THOSE COYOTES WERE KILLED .. AS MAN TENDS TO DO WITH COYOTES .. SO THAT ANSWER WILL REMAIN UNCLEAR AT THIS TIME. I DO KNOW THAT 2 OR 3 HUNTERS OR MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILIES HAVE COME DOWN WITH .. WHAT IS CONSIDERED .. SIMILAR .. BUT THERE'S NOT MUCH PUBLICITY AROUND IT BECAUSE IT MAY HARM THE TOURIST TRADE. BUT THAT WOULD HAVE CORRECTED ITSELF IF MAN HADN'T GOTTEN INTO THE MIX AND BEGUN SHIPPING ANIMALS ACROSS STATE LINES INTO DIFFERENT ENCLOSED HUNTING PARKS FOR THE PLEASURE AND EXCITEMENT OF THOSE WHO COULD PAY GREAT FEES FOR THE MOMENT OF THE KILL... ALL OUTBREAKS IN OTHER STATES HAVE HAPPENED WITHIN A FEW MILES OF A HUNTING ENCLOSURE. NOW THAT DIS-ORDER IS IN (SOMETHING LIKE) 14 STATES ONE OF THE ORIGINAL RAW FOOD ADVOCATES SUGGESTED BUYING A SIDE OF BEEF AND BURYING IT IN THE YARD FOR A WEEK .. DIGGING IT UP AND FEEDING IT TO THE DOGS. ROTTING STILL DOESN'T EQUATE TO SICK OUR ANIMALS (PAMPERED PET THEY MAY BE) ARE STILL OPPORTUNISTS WHEN IT COMES TO GRABBING SOMETHING UGLY, UNKNOWABLE, AND STINKY OFF THE GROUND AND EATING IT. (as i stand jumping around, wringing my hands, yelling DROP IT, DROP IT .. and totally ignored) BUT THERE IS STILL A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND SICK. OUR SYSTEMS CAN TAKE A HUGH AMOUNT OF ABUSE BEFORE THE BODY GIVES UP THE GHOST .. IN THE LATE 70'S OR EARLY 80'S SOMETHING LIKE 70% OF ALL CALVES LIVER WAS UNFIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. THE CHEMICALS THAT WERE BEING POURED INTO THE BODY'S OF THE MOTHERS (AND THE MOTHERS BEFORE THEM) WAS SO OVERWHELMING THAT THE BABIES INSIDE THE MOTHERS WERE BORN WITH FAIRLY ADVANCED DESTRUCTION OF THEIR LIVERS .. AND CHEMISTRY HAS BEEN MARCHING STEADILY ON EVER SINCE. IN THE WILD, A PREDATOR WILL EAT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING .. BUT IS NEVER REGULATED TO JUST ONE THING .. A BOWL OF KIBBLE. I've heard similar stories. Large dogs tend to have a longer life span than small cats, do they not? Seventeen years is a LONG time for an outdoor cat to live. SMALL DOGS TEND TO HAVE A LONER LIFE SPAN THAN LARGE DOGS .. BECAUSE I HAVE MID TO LARGER DOGS, MINE TEND TO GO 10 TO 14 .. I'VE KNOWN CATS TO GO TO 21 AND 22 .. I'VE HAD CATS THAT GO TO 18 AND 19. I HAVE LONGEVITY ON BOTH SIDES .. GRANDPARENTS DIED IN THEIR LATE 90'S .. MY PARENTS DIED IN THEIR EARLY 80S (ALONG WITH THEIR SIBLINGS) .. MY OLDER SISTER ISN'T DOING SO WELL, MY YOUNGER SISTER IS ON A LOT OF MEDICATION, MY BROTHER IS ON EVEN MORE MEDICATION .. AND WE'RE NOW TALKING 50S AND 60S. I IGNORE ANY PAINS BECAUSE I WON'T TAKE THAT STUFF .. AND I SEE MY HERBALISTS AT LEAST TWICE A YEAR. AT PRESENT, MY OLDEST CAT IS 11 .. THE NEXT IS ABOUT 6 .. TWO UNKNOWN, AND 1 (MY BB O'BRIAN -IS BOX BOY -FOUND STUFFED IN A BOX - SO I GAVE HIM A LAST NAME) I THINK WE TEND TO GET THEM AROUND THE SAME TIME, AND BEGIN TO LOOSE THEM THE SAME WAY. MINE ARE INDOOR/OUTDOOR CATS AND WHILE I HAVE HAD A FEW HIT BY CARS AND/OR DISAPPEAR, THEY CAN COME IN UNDER THE CRAWL SPACE, WALK ALONG A HEATING PIPE AND ENTER THE BASEMENT .. WALK UP THE STEPS AND COME INTO THE HOUSE. I HAVE, ON OCCASION FOUND A FEW UNKNOWN CATS IN MY HOUSE WHICH ALWAYS SURPRISES ME BECAUSE I STILL HAVE 2 DOGS. .. BUT THEN WITH 5 CATS, I STILL HAVE TO PUT OUT MOUSE TRAPS. Am I understanding correctly, based upon the outline of your argument, that this constitutes evidence that factory food production for our pets is responsible for the decline in pet longevity? NO .. SORRY, ONCE AGAIN, I'M HAVING TO DEPEND ON MEMORY OF THINGS I HAVE READ SOMETIMES IN THE PAST. IN AND AROUND THE 70'S OR 80'S SOME EXPERT ON SOMETHING WROTE THAT THE (HUMAN) LONGEVITY WOULD BEGIN TO DROP AFTER THE DEATHS OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE BORN PRIOR TO THE 1930(s) .. THE REASON GIVEN FOR THIS PREDICTION WAS THAT FARMERS NO LONGER
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Greetings, Actually 20 to 25 is closer to normal for a cat to live except in case of accident. I have a friend whose old cat is now 28, but he is old. Animals that live in the wild and dine on the sick and diseased prey, do sometimes die from what made their prey sick. One of my dogs is half coyote and I almost lost her due to her hunting before I started to feed her raw. Now, she no longer eats what she kills, she brings it to Mom to make sure it is okay before chowing down. On a sustainable farm, trying to establish a sustainable way of life, I feel that the animal feeds should be home grown. I love the change for the better this has caused in my fur family, especially my 10 year old black lab, who is also a rescue. Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:57 PM 12/5/2005, you wrote: snip I've heard similar stories. Large dogs tend to have a longer life span than small cats, do they not? Seventeen years is a LONG time for an outdoor cat to live. Am I understanding correctly, based upon the outline of your argument, that this constitutes evidence that factory food production for our pets is responsible for the decline in pet longevity? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
Marylynn Schmidt wrote: A PREY ANIMAL THAT IS KILLED BY A PREDATOR WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE A SICK ANIMAL .. IT COULD BE YOUNG .. IT COULD BE OLD .. IT COULD BE INJURED. IF, ON OCCASION EATING A SICK ANIMAL, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WOULD HAVE A GREAT LASTING EFFECT IF NON-SICK ANIMALS (young, old, injured) WERE ALSO ON THE MENU. Is it not true, however, that animal remains in a rendering plant would also contain the offal from healthy specimens slaughtered for human consumption? HOW MANY MACDONALDS HAMBURGERS HAS THE AVERAGE CHILD EATEN IN A WEEK .. IN 2 WEEKS? I haven't had a McDonald's hamburger since I was about 7. (That was a VERY long time ago!) My children have NEVER eaten them. I'm trying to understand your point, Mary Lynn. English is not my first language and I might be a little bit dense, but I'm not following what McDonald's hamburgers have to do with commercial cat food. BUT YES, I DO BELIEVE THAT I HAVE READ (CAN'T SWEAR TO IT) ABOUT SOME HUNTERS COMING ACROSS COYOTES THAT APPEARED TO HAVE THAT WOBBLING DISEASE SOME DEER AND ELK HAVE DEVELOPED (LIKE MAD COW) IN THE GENERAL AREA WHERE THERE WAS THE ORIGINAL OUTBREAK. But is that observation credible? Is there a causal link between BSE, wild ungulate infestation and a corresponding outbreak among their predators? I'm not suggesting this is impossible, but what evidence, aside from the anecdote you underscore, supports that view? THOSE COYOTES WERE KILLED .. AS MAN TENDS TO DO WITH COYOTES .. SO THAT ANSWER WILL REMAIN UNCLEAR AT THIS TIME. Indeed. Even if the coyotes were subsequently autopsied, would the results of that autopsy be made available to the public? Unlikely, I think! I DO KNOW THAT 2 OR 3 HUNTERS OR MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILIES HAVE COME DOWN WITH .. WHAT IS CONSIDERED .. SIMILAR .. BUT THERE'S NOT MUCH PUBLICITY AROUND IT BECAUSE IT MAY HARM THE TOURIST TRADE. The BSE / KJD controversy in England was the first, if I recall correctly, to suggest a link between BSE and KJD. In those cases, eating nervous tissue in sausage has been the suspected mechanism by which the disease crossed the species barrier. BUT THAT WOULD HAVE CORRECTED ITSELF IF MAN HADN'T GOTTEN INTO THE MIX AND BEGUN SHIPPING ANIMALS ACROSS STATE LINES INTO DIFFERENT ENCLOSED HUNTING PARKS FOR THE PLEASURE AND EXCITEMENT OF THOSE WHO COULD PAY GREAT FEES FOR THE MOMENT OF THE KILL... We do MANY things with unintended consequences. ALL OUTBREAKS IN OTHER STATES HAVE HAPPENED WITHIN A FEW MILES OF A HUNTING ENCLOSURE. Can you please elaborate on this? Are you suggesting a connection between BSE, a similar condition in wild ungulates, and subsequent KJD development in human hunters? I have friends who hunt, but I've heard NOTHING about this. ROTTING STILL DOESN'T EQUATE TO SICK No. Of course not. For dogs, in particular, rotting meat seems preferable! OUR ANIMALS (PAMPERED PET THEY MAY BE) ARE STILL OPPORTUNISTS WHEN IT COMES TO GRABBING SOMETHING UGLY, UNKNOWABLE, AND STINKY OFF THE GROUND AND EATING IT. (as i stand jumping around, wringing my hands, yelling DROP IT, DROP IT .. and totally ignored) BUT THERE IS STILL A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND SICK. However, predators DO take down sick members of a herd. OUR SYSTEMS CAN TAKE A HUGH AMOUNT OF ABUSE BEFORE THE BODY GIVES UP THE GHOST .. IN THE LATE 70'S OR EARLY 80'S SOMETHING LIKE 70% OF ALL CALVES LIVER WAS UNFIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. THE CHEMICALS THAT WERE BEING POURED INTO THE BODY'S OF THE MOTHERS (AND THE MOTHERS BEFORE THEM) WAS SO OVERWHELMING THAT THE BABIES INSIDE THE MOTHERS WERE BORN WITH FAIRLY ADVANCED DESTRUCTION OF THEIR LIVERS .. AND CHEMISTRY HAS BEEN MARCHING STEADILY ON EVER SINCE. IN THE WILD, A PREDATOR WILL EAT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING .. BUT IS NEVER REGULATED TO JUST ONE THING .. A BOWL OF KIBBLE. Yet you seem to suggest that the kibble I'm feeding my cats comes primarily from diseased animals. I would like to see some empirical evidence that this is so. SMALL DOGS TEND TO HAVE A LONER LIFE SPAN THAN LARGE DOGS .. BECAUSE I HAVE MID TO LARGER DOGS, MINE TEND TO GO 10 TO 14 .. I'VE KNOWN CATS TO GO TO 21 AND 22 .. I'VE HAD CATS THAT GO TO 18 AND 19. I've benefited from many feline relationships in my life. None of these faithful and beautiful creatures lived as long as the last one I owned, due to accidents or human cruelty. (One of them was actually shot!) My last cat developed a thyroid condition that resulted from scar tissue building up after a tussle with a raccoon. She was suffering, so I had her euthanized last year. From what I've read, the ages you quote above seem to be the exception, rather than the rule. For instance, according to messybeast.com: In countries with good veterinary care, the average life-span
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
First I need to explain something very important to me. I read a variety of publications from a variety of different lists covering a variety of different fields .. these fields, naturally are the fields that are of interest to me. My own personal opinion is that when I see and hear different subjects concerning animal welfare, animal abuse, animal unwellness, environmental disasters, medical disaster, mercury in vaccinations and the unexplained autism epidemic that is rampant in the western countries, pharma companies trying to pass laws allowing the same drugs, the same vaccinations to be cross prescribed from people to animals .. and quite a few of these publications begin touching on adjacent co-joined subjects I tend to sit up and listen. I read the surveys about disorders showing up in animals who have vaccination compared to disorders not showing up in animals who do not get vaccinated (There was a world wide survey taken by CDC (I think) that took over 5 years and covered most countries) .. and can compare those surveys to surveys about shaken baby syndrome occurring within 3 to 4 weeks after their first vaccinations .. about children developing normally until given a series of vaccinations around 18 months and then reversing in what they had gained until somewhere around 2 to 3 years old parents are faced to a diagnosis of autism I feel I have the ability to begin to connect the points. When I see, what I perceive as a connection .. I mentally take note of it and begin to formulate a personal decision to go there .. or not go there. There has never been a moment of time in my life that I've ever felt the overpowering need to convince anyone to believe anything because I tend to believe it. If you want to feed Science Diet please feel free to do so .. but in my own personal household that's not on the menu .. and bagel and cream cheese sometimes is. Because of my active mailbox and duties calling me elsewhere, this is my last response on this subject. If you wish further information on longevity, environmental pollution, 29 year olds with Lou Garig (sp?) Disease dying in the military after the anthrax vaccination .. the one they have stockpiled for the general population .. or the percentage of downed cows vs scrap parts of healthy cows per batch of rendered cycle please check google. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: A PREY ANIMAL THAT IS KILLED BY A PREDATOR WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE A SICK ANIMAL .. IT COULD BE YOUNG .. IT COULD BE OLD .. IT COULD BE INJURED. IF, ON OCCASION EATING A SICK ANIMAL, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WOULD HAVE A GREAT LASTING EFFECT IF NON-SICK ANIMALS (young, old, injured) WERE ALSO ON THE MENU. Is it not true, however, that animal remains in a rendering plant would also contain the offal from healthy specimens slaughtered for human consumption? and also companion animals that have been killed by lethal injection in county animal shelters with poisons .. it's all in the big mix .. ground up with hugh grinders liquefying it using pressure and high heat .. and it is known that cooking of a live food kills off some nutrients .. the longer you cook and the higher the heat, the more nutrients are killed off .. leaving whatever was good to begin with now dead. These are hugh grinders that produce high heat that crush bones, hooves, horns, teeth into liquid. So now you have poisoned, sick, medicated mixed in with some trim and the stomach, digestive tract, bowels and bones of ok to basically healthy animal (remembering that the majority of the good animals have been taken elsewhere to be processed into Human Consumption meat .. these grades go from the high priced cuts down to stew meat .. down to .. what we call Sam's hamburgers .. which is our slang for the cheapest level of ground meat that can still be sold to humans. I have absolutely NO Idea what that percentage would be. In guessing I'd think that the downers would outnumber the healthy by a fairly large percentage because good meat can be sold at a higher price so it would never reach the rendering plant. It is also only my understanding that those people who are actually running the day to day operations of the rendering plant could not give you an absolute percentage themselves. HOW MANY MACDONALD'S HAMBURGERS HAS THE AVERAGE CHILD EATEN IN A WEEK .. IN 2 WEEKS? I haven't had a McDonald's hamburger since I was about 7. (That was a VERY long time ago!) My children have NEVER eaten them. I'm trying to understand your point, Mary Lynn. English is not my first language and I might be a little bit dense, but I'm not following what McDonald's hamburgers have to do with commercial cat food. I apologize, I did not realize English was a second language. It sounds pretty good to me. McDonald's is not considered a source of healthy nutritious food. What I meant was that eating poorly will not kill you quickly. You can
Re: [Biofuel] Preheating heat source - BriteLyt?
Just got a Britelyt today. Haven't been able to get it to light on BD but I think it may be due to the fuel being too cold. Will report back if I get it going. Ken Dunn wrote: What is everyone using as a heat source for preheating? I'm thinking about buying the BriteLyt mentioned on JtF. I could use it for other purposes as well which would be nice. Anyone test it? Care to comment? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass
- Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 18:56 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass Marylynn Schmidt wrote: HOW MANY MACDONALDS HAMBURGERS HAS THE AVERAGE CHILD EATEN IN A WEEK .. IN 2 WEEKS? I haven't had a McDonald's hamburger since I was about 7. (That was a VERY long time ago!) My children have NEVER eaten them. I'm trying to understand your point, Mary Lynn. English is not my first language and I might be a little bit dense, but I'm not following what McDonald's hamburgers have to do with commercial cat food. That's ok, Robert, English ( well American English ) is my first language, and I don't understand either. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
