[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
If anyone does pull together a list of BD prices at pumps around the US or around the world, I'll volunteer to put it all on a color-coded (by price) map for everyone so that we can get a big picture view of where BD is currently competitive price-wise... It would help greatly if the cost of fossil diesel at the same pumps were also collected at the same time, so that we can compare. For the US, NBB has a partial list of public pumps, petroleum distributors that sell it, and direct BD suppliers, complete with phone numbers to contact them all and inquire about their prices... www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/guide/ Cheers, Andrew N Space Labs, Inc. www.NSpaceLabs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 212.219.0851 (office) 646.221.5602 (mobile) 594 Broadway, #611 NY, NY 10012 The Biofuel Business Development Project http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biofuel-Business-Plan/ Dedicated to Making An Immediate Impact On the Long-Range Future of Humanity Message: 2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:23:46 -0800 From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?! On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:45:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. It might also help if BD were traded on one or more of the major exchanges. At least, in my view. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hi Andrew, This is what I was asking of Keith a few weeks (months) ago. He indicated that it would be almost impossible to maintain due to price flucuations within the market. Prices across the board are very different at present as there is no futures market for biodiesel (yet!!). Also, since the product can be produced with different feedstocks and the prices associated with those, distribution costs, brokering costs, etc As you can see it can be a daunting task. I think if all you wanted was a baseline for general BD costs in various areas, that would be fine. If your trying to define a business plan on some hard numbers it might be more difficult. Comparing the cost of Dino Diesel(DD) to BD is not really productive since the product DD is a fairly well known process and most of the manufactures do it in a similar way. BD on the other had as explained above has some wildly varying price points. Another thing that will inhibit a cross comparision is that DD is subsidized and BD is not. Here is an example; over the weekend I was helping to make fuel at the Berkley Biodiesel Co-op and was talking to a person who lives in SF on how much he pays for his BD. He indicated that it was over $3 a gallon!! I was supprised that it was so much, but when one compares this unsubsidized price to the subsidized price of DD (~$1.50 - $1.85 depending on where one lives), it doesn't look half bad. Somewhere it was noted that the true price for a gallon of gas was ~$18. Of course we don't see that true cost as we pay for it in our taxes. I still think that your pricing project is noble and can only benefit all. :) James Slayden On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Andrew Hoppin wrote: If anyone does pull together a list of BD prices at pumps around the US or around the world, I'll volunteer to put it all on a color-coded (by price) map for everyone so that we can get a big picture view of where BD is currently competitive price-wise... It would help greatly if the cost of fossil diesel at the same pumps were also collected at the same time, so that we can compare. For the US, NBB has a partial list of public pumps, petroleum distributors that sell it, and direct BD suppliers, complete with phone numbers to contact them all and inquire about their prices... www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/guide/ Cheers, Andrew N Space Labs, Inc. www.NSpaceLabs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 212.219.0851 (office) 646.221.5602 (mobile) 594 Broadway, #611 NY, NY 10012 The Biofuel Business Development Project http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biofuel-Business-Plan/ Dedicated to Making An Immediate Impact On the Long-Range Future of Humanity Message: 2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:23:46 -0800 From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?! On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:45:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. It might also help if BD were traded on one or more of the major exchanges. At least, in my view. MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:45:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. It might also help if BD were traded on one or more of the major exchanges. At least, in my view. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:45:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. It might also help if BD were traded on one or more of the major exchanges. At least, in my view. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: bouncing mail - was Re: co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
actually, I am using Pine, so the graphics thing doesn't bother me. I think that it was just another Yahoo Groups pucky. It seems to happen about once every several months. Knowing some of the Yahoo folks (very cluefull people) my guess it is a server side issue just getting blown out. James Slayden On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi James Sorry you had probs with bouncing messages. You're not the only one. I hope it's working okay now. Maybe it had something to do with this, which has had me grinding my teeth (from a big list moderators' group, where Yahell isn't exactly as popular as hot dinners): This darn green and blue e diets banner with a picture of a woman and a blue clickable asterisk! It locks up everything and leaves me with a blank screen and done at the bottom of the screen. And the Me too! I'm not actually seeing the ad cause I use Mozilla and I set it to block images from YG's ad server but I'm getting all sorts of blank pages today when I'm working on the YG website. The only thing I can do to get to my groups or to a message that I am trying to anwser is click on that stupid banner and use my back button to get to where I want to go. I've found that if I hit refresh once or twice, a new ad cycles in and the page displays properly. The ads cycle fairly quickly, every 30 seconds or so. Let's not ignore the fact that many people are likely to find the ad itself distracting, annoying, and objectionable. eDiets may have some guys ogling their model, but that's no way to convince me to do something about my big tummy. As if the ads themselves aren't annoying enough, they give us one that forces you to reload the page once or twice before you get to see anything other than the ad. :-( Sympathies to those using the web interface, or trying to. regards Keith Keith, Looks like some of my email to biofuel@yahoogroups.com is bouncing, although some are getting through. Just wanted to let ya know. James Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
bouncing mail - was Re: co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hi James Sorry you had probs with bouncing messages. You're not the only one. I hope it's working okay now. Maybe it had something to do with this, which has had me grinding my teeth (from a big list moderators' group, where Yahell isn't exactly as popular as hot dinners): This darn green and blue e diets banner with a picture of a woman and a blue clickable asterisk! It locks up everything and leaves me with a blank screen and done at the bottom of the screen. And the Me too! I'm not actually seeing the ad cause I use Mozilla and I set it to block images from YG's ad server but I'm getting all sorts of blank pages today when I'm working on the YG website. The only thing I can do to get to my groups or to a message that I am trying to anwser is click on that stupid banner and use my back button to get to where I want to go. I've found that if I hit refresh once or twice, a new ad cycles in and the page displays properly. The ads cycle fairly quickly, every 30 seconds or so. Let's not ignore the fact that many people are likely to find the ad itself distracting, annoying, and objectionable. eDiets may have some guys ogling their model, but that's no way to convince me to do something about my big tummy. As if the ads themselves aren't annoying enough, they give us one that forces you to reload the page once or twice before you get to see anything other than the ad. :-( Sympathies to those using the web interface, or trying to. regards Keith Keith, Looks like some of my email to biofuel@yahoogroups.com is bouncing, although some are getting through. Just wanted to let ya know. James Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. James Slayden Hi James Yes, that would be great, but a lot of research and a lot of constant maintenance keeping it up to date, and I'm not into doing it I'm afraid. If anyone else wants to I'd consider hosting it at Journey to Forever (though I'd still have to get involved in maintenance and updates). Sorry, not being reluctant, just being realistic (or trying to be). regards Keith On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/XfSp7B/XlOFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
NP, just an idea. :) I see your point tho. Adminstration is the biggest time sink there is. On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. James Slayden Hi James Yes, that would be great, but a lot of research and a lot of constant maintenance keeping it up to date, and I'm not into doing it I'm afraid. If anyone else wants to I'd consider hosting it at Journey to Forever (though I'd still have to get involved in maintenance and updates). Sorry, not being reluctant, just being realistic (or trying to be). regards Keith On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate raises money at a rate either twice or four times our chemicals costs per gallon (ie we spend .50/gallon for costs, and reimburse the co-op $1 a gallon or $2 a gallon, as we have no other funding source other than very low quarterly dues ($25 every three months). The two tier rate is partly voluntary (ie the theory is that if you're a superpayer/superdonator you get to be in the Canola Club and get a 55-gallon drum or tank named after you and your name inscribed on the wall and a little dance done in your honor, or whatever similarly silly honors you choose. We have a 350-gallon tote named Dave for Dave Williamson for all his help in the project, and one named Randall for Randall Van Wiedel (sp??) for finding us the totes for cheap. They missed getting the little dance though). The rate is also partly based on whether you worked on the particular batch or not. It doesn't work well and is an accounting/paperwork nightmare, however, so I wouldn't recommend that another co-op or group do this kind of thing. Mark At 09:41 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
I stand corrected, I think I was mixing up the tier system. And yes you have to be a member of the co-op to get fuel. Selling is a bad term on my part, suggested donation or re-imbursment cost is better terminology. Although I recently saw an article that even non-profits can sell things as long as the money is utilized for non-profit operating and administrative costs. Something to be explored for a small producer. www.compasspoint.org for many modern non-profit things James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate raises money at a rate either twice or four times our chemicals costs per gallon (ie we spend .50/gallon for costs, and reimburse the co-op $1 a gallon or $2 a gallon, as we have no other funding source other than very low quarterly dues ($25 every three months). The two tier rate is partly voluntary (ie the theory is that if you're a superpayer/superdonator you get to be in the Canola Club and get a 55-gallon drum or tank named after you and your name inscribed on the wall and a little dance done in your honor, or whatever similarly silly honors you choose. We have a 350-gallon tote named Dave for Dave Williamson for all his help in the project, and one named Randall for Randall Van Wiedel (sp??) for finding us the totes for cheap. They missed getting the little dance though). The rate is also partly based on whether you worked on the particular batch or not. It doesn't work well and is an accounting/paperwork nightmare, however, so I wouldn't recommend that another co-op or group do this kind of thing. Mark At 09:41 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate raises money at a rate either twice or four times our chemicals costs per gallon (ie we spend .50/gallon for costs, and reimburse the co-op $1 a gallon or $2 a gallon, as we have no other funding source other than very low quarterly dues ($25 every three months). The two tier rate is partly voluntary (ie the theory is that if you're a superpayer/superdonator you get to be in the Canola Club and get a 55-gallon drum or tank named after you and your name inscribed on the wall and a little dance done in your honor, or whatever similarly silly honors you choose. We have a 350-gallon tote named Dave for Dave Williamson for all his help in the project, and one named Randall for Randall Van Wiedel (sp??) for finding us the totes for cheap. They missed getting the little dance though). The rate is also partly based on whether you worked on the particular batch or not. It doesn't work well and is an accounting/paperwork nightmare, however, so I wouldn't recommend that another co-op or group do this kind of thing. Mark At 09:41 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
I don't know the name of the place, the 1.86 was Yokayo's price per 1000 gallon a few weeks ago (Last I checked) and the other price is what the Ecology Center truck fleet pays for it in 1000 gallon lots, that price they told me (they also posted it in some press article or another recently) includes the road tax already. Yokayo's 1.86 price is for offroad users- non roadaxed. Turns out both places get it from the same plant. that batch of ecology center's stuff that we tested in class, by the way- I checked up on that with Dave Williamson and he said that it had a pile of additives in it that may have affected the emulsification testing (polarpower and a biocide). It also may have sat around under poor conditions for a while and started to biodegrade despite the biocide (or maybe some other factor). Anyway both places apparently get their fuel from the same plant, according to dave. Mark At 11:27 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Is that from Imperial? On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: Prices I know of are in 1,000 gallon tanks- 1.86 per gallon that way for offroad, and 2.35/gallon with the road taxes on the same fuel. Unless the 1.86 price is outdated (prices on new soy biodiesel went up recently around here) this is coming from the WVO-derived biodiesel from the plant in Coachella CA. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
At 11:58 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden Unfortunately it's hard to convince people that on top of the moneyearning work they do to get money to pay for fuel at $2 a gallon, and then all the hours they put in to getting to the coop site and then making fuel, that they should then 'pay' a lot more than it costs to make it for it, especially when there;s different tiime commitments and fuel needs coming from different members. The ones who don't work on the batches are quite happy to donate $2 gallon for fuel occasionally, and those who make it or wash it or whatever prefer to spend less money as they're putting in work on the fuel and usually on the equipment making while waiting for oil to heat or whatever. So it's complicated like everything in life. (and it really is hours that they put in at the coop to get fuel made, for various reasons specific to our situation- it'd be more economical if we were in a different location and could use larger equipment or had more cash to spend to automate a couple of things a la touchless processor or whatever, or if could use propane for heating, for example). Co-op and other volunteer work involves an interplay between people's spirit of volunteerism and the demands on their time- ie how much they have to spare. Groovy enviroproject that this all is, a biodiesel coop will only work longterm if it fits a primary mission of getting fuel to members (believe it or not, that's not our primary mission!). Otherwise, unless you're a wingnut like me, it's interesting while you're learning, then it quickly becomes a boring routine of hauling buckets of wash water (hopefully to be soon replaced with 'pumping wash water back and forth to a graywater system' it I hope), getting dirty, and sitting in meetings. So there's got to be (inexpensive in our case) a decent amount of reward for members. Mark On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate
Re: co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Understood. There is a great sustainable community farm model in Virginia or Vermont that has susbscriptions for people who are want the produce, but don't want to participate in the actual labor. I don't know if they have a tiered system, but it seems to work well for them. The article was in Organic Gardening a while back. They took some really marginal land and just completely converted it to a sustainable organic community farm. James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: At 11:58 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden Unfortunately it's hard to convince people that on top of the moneyearning work they do to get money to pay for fuel at $2 a gallon, and then all the hours they put in to getting to the coop site and then making fuel, that they should then 'pay' a lot more than it costs to make it for it, especially when there;s different tiime commitments and fuel needs coming from different members. The ones who don't work on the batches are quite happy to donate $2 gallon for fuel occasionally, and those who make it or wash it or whatever prefer to spend less money as they're putting in work on the fuel and usually on the equipment making while waiting for oil to heat or whatever. So it's complicated like everything in life. (and it really is hours that they put in at the coop to get fuel made, for various reasons specific to our situation- it'd be more economical if we were in a different location and could use larger equipment or had more cash to spend to automate a couple of things a la touchless processor or whatever, or if could use propane for heating, for example). Co-op and other volunteer work involves an interplay between people's spirit of volunteerism and the demands on their time- ie how much they have to spare. Groovy enviroproject that this all is, a biodiesel coop will only work longterm if it fits a primary mission of getting fuel to members (believe it or not, that's not our primary mission!). Otherwise, unless you're a wingnut like me, it's interesting while you're learning, then it quickly becomes a boring routine of hauling buckets of wash water (hopefully to be soon replaced with 'pumping wash water back and forth to a graywater system' it I hope), getting dirty, and sitting in meetings. So there's got to be (inexpensive in our case) a decent amount of reward for members. Mark On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a
Re: co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Keith, Looks like some of my email to biofuel@yahoogroups.com is bouncing, although some are getting through. Just wanted to let ya know. James On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, James Slayden wrote: Understood. There is a great sustainable community farm model in Virginia or Vermont that has susbscriptions for people who are want the produce, but don't want to participate in the actual labor. I don't know if they have a tiered system, but it seems to work well for them. The article was in Organic Gardening a while back. They took some really marginal land and just completely converted it to a sustainable organic community farm. James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: At 11:58 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden Unfortunately it's hard to convince people that on top of the moneyearning work they do to get money to pay for fuel at $2 a gallon, and then all the hours they put in to getting to the coop site and then making fuel, that they should then 'pay' a lot more than it costs to make it for it, especially when there;s different tiime commitments and fuel needs coming from different members. The ones who don't work on the batches are quite happy to donate $2 gallon for fuel occasionally, and those who make it or wash it or whatever prefer to spend less money as they're putting in work on the fuel and usually on the equipment making while waiting for oil to heat or whatever. So it's complicated like everything in life. (and it really is hours that they put in at the coop to get fuel made, for various reasons specific to our situation- it'd be more economical if we were in a different location and could use larger equipment or had more cash to spend to automate a couple of things a la touchless processor or whatever, or if could use propane for heating, for example). Co-op and other volunteer work involves an interplay between people's spirit of volunteerism and the demands on their time- ie how much they have to spare. Groovy enviroproject that this all is, a biodiesel coop will only work longterm if it fits a primary mission of getting fuel to members (believe it or not, that's not our primary mission!). Otherwise, unless you're a wingnut like me, it's interesting while you're learning, then it quickly becomes a boring routine of hauling buckets of wash water (hopefully to be soon replaced with 'pumping wash water back and forth to a graywater system' it I hope), getting dirty, and sitting in meetings. So there's got to be (inexpensive in our case) a decent amount of reward for members. Mark On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Both time and money are commodities. One is almost always in shorter supply than the other. - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:42 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?! WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Keith, You wrote: Current petro-diesel price in the US is about $1,50 (commercial biodiesel isn't much more, or about the same). WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. seasons greetings to all, thor skov = Grants Manager Stillaguamish Tribe Of Indians 3439 Stoluckquamish Lane P.O. Box 277 Arlington, WA 98223-0277 (360) 652-7362 Ext 284 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Prices I know of are in 1,000 gallon tanks- 1.86 per gallon that way for offroad, and 2.35/gallon with the road taxes on the same fuel. Unless the 1.86 price is outdated (prices on new soy biodiesel went up recently around here) this is coming from the WVO-derived biodiesel from the plant in Coachella CA. Mark At 10:52 AM 12/18/2002 -0800, you wrote: Keith, You wrote: Current petro-diesel price in the US is about $1,50 (commercial biodiesel isn't much more, or about the same). WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. seasons greetings to all, thor skov = Grants Manager Stillaguamish Tribe Of Indians 3439 Stoluckquamish Lane P.O. Box 277 Arlington, WA 98223-0277 (360) 652-7362 Ext 284 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.comhttp://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.ZSp6B/dlOFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
