[biofuels-biz] WVO and coated steel
HCII has posted about his experiences with WVO effecting steel coatings causing waxy deposits that block the filter. He has found this with coatings on steel fuel filters and Mercedes fuel tanks.. I have read a recent report of an American having similar problems with a 1987 300D Mercedes tank. I guess some people might misdiagnose this as filter blocking due to the fats in the fuel. Anybody got any idea of what coatings may be causing this. Or does anybody have an example of this in the UK that I could have checked in a Lab Darren Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO adventure: learning the hard way
Did a little experiment and wanted to document my results. Before anyone flames me for being stupid I just want to acknowledge that my plan was poorly researched and conceived, based on next to no background in diesel mechanics. That being said I feel that my experience has value and might prevent another novice from making a similar mistake. Based on some speculation I heard on this list and rumors from elsewhere I decided to try mixing WVO with B100. I think some of my reasoning was sound. I have a Cummins in-line injector engine and was lead to believe that in warm weather it could handle a little well filtered (.5 microns) WVO. I probably grossly misunderstood the facts and was just too impatient to wait for my mechanic to finish the SVO conversion. Also the cost of the b100 was killing me (2.26) and I wanted to use some of the WVO I had filtered before it went rancid. At first I blended between 15 and 30 per cent in a five gallon bucket pouring that in the tank. Didn't have any problems so I started pouring in a five gallon bucket of WVO in the tank and then pouring 15 to 20 gallons B100 over that. I tried to only drive it when the temps were above 70 degrees. After the first 800 miles or so my brand new fuel filter clogged and I found myself creeping along highway hills at under 30 mph, starving the engine for fuel. I changed the filter, didn't put anymore WVO in the tank and tried to break it up with some diesel injector cleaner additive. Unfortunately I had to change the filter again in another 400 miles when I noticed I was loosing significant power again. Things are working well now, but I will never put SVO in a tank that doesn't have a proven heating capacity. Thanks for your indulgence. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO/Bio-D Gathering and Bon Voyage Party/Gathering (North OH)
Hi folk, My rig is heading off probably Mon. the 8th of Sept. on its WVO powered journey to North FL. from North OH. (Youngstown) I'll be hauling all my earthly possesions (not much LOL) cause this is a moving trip. Im putting on a Bon Voyage Party in the Youstown area the weekend of Sept. 6th (exact info TBA) and inviting all Bio-D/WVO types to come on over and display your stuff. Press is being notified. Arby's has provided me some oil for the trip and may sponsor the party/gathering. Will have some type of live entertainment (DJ and or Karaoke) Pot luck Dinner is a possibility (if Arby's host the party then no Pot luck) Also invited are all my former students, MB enthusiast and jeeper types. come onnn downnn (or up, over etc :) ) PS. Also looking for oil to use if anyone has spare oil. My basic route is Youngstown OH, thru Columbus to Cinn. Then down to Atlanta and across east to Oakwood GA. Then west to Birmingham AL. and South to Panama City FL. EMAIL ME at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO
I have about 50 gallons too much of WVO on hand. good, gravity settled, Canola. 25 cents per litre, Canadian if anyone is passing through Kelowna BC area and needs some. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO fryer concerns
Hi, New to list. New to WVO. I'm filtering oil to stock pile, and purchased a diesel vehicle but haven't done conversion yet. will soon. I'm negotiating relationships with local restaurants to intercept their fryer oil before it gets mixed with grill grease trap waste. In one case they pointed out that the oil (soy bean) comes as a solid and will resolidify at room temperature. I looked at the ingredients and noticed there's more than just oil in that stuff (some anti-foaming agent for instance). Should I put this stuff in my engine? Will a .5 micron filter solve any potential problems, will preheating solve potential problems? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] WVO/SVO Biodiesel in WA state
Hi Ed, I have to disagree with your recommendation that biofuel advocates should try to get the WA legislature to consider SVO and WVO at the same time as biodiesel. I completely agree that the same priciples support the inclusion of both. BUT, we need to pursue goals that we can attain and appreciate that confusion is a major risk here and a tool that will be used against us. We need to have the crystal clear message that biodiesel(as B20) runs in diesel engines with no need for modification and with the (somewhat grudging) support of the OEM's. Putting SVO and WVO into the mix will confuse people and politicians regarding what biodiesel is and how it can be used and make passage substantially less likely. Biodiesel can lead the way for other biofuels but biodiesel will be less likely to get anywhere if it has to pull the weight of SVO and WVO. I hope that you will seriously consider whether this approach will yield the best long-term results. Best, Graham Original Message: - From: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Date: 16 Feb 2003 12:46:56 - To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuels-biz] Digest Number 490 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are 6 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. RE: Q: price for glycerine in EU? From: Winny De Schryver [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. biodiesel in Washington State From: Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. ethanol excise tax From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. Re: biodiesel in Washington State From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5. glycerine From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6. More Yip Yip for Appal From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message: 1 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:16:55 +0100 From: Winny De Schryver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Q: price for glycerine in EU? Prices per ton glycerine 60% 300 ? 80% 500 ? 90% 600 ? Winny -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Paulius Staneiauskas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: dinsdag 11 februari 2003 8:21 Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: RE: [biofuels-biz] Q: price for glycerine in EU? Hi Winny, Can you tell me prices of all the purities? Paulius -Original Message- From: Winny De Schryver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 8:07 PM To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [biofuels-biz] Q: price for glycerine in EU? Hi, Depends on the purity of your product. Is it in the range of 65 , 80 , 90 or 95+ % pure ? Winny -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: pauliusstanciauskas [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 10 februari 2003 15:08 Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: [biofuels-biz] Q: price for glycerine in EU? Hello, I need information about glycerine price for 1t in EU. I would be thankfull for your information. Paulius Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 11:21:28 -0800 (PST) From: Thor Skov
Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO/SVO Biodiesel in WA state
Hi Graham: Well, it has been included in other places, interest if growing quickly in SVO use, and so it is, I think, best to just lay it all out for the legislators at the outset. It is simple. If it is renewable from vegetable oil sources, it gets the tax break. If it's non-renewable from fossil fuel sources, it does not. Legislators are not dumb people. You don't have to spoon feed them. But they may have the mistaken impression that only B20 works or that only B100 works because this is the only message they have been receiving from the biodiesel folks and from the soy folks, and that is not the case. The legislation in any jurisdiction looking at tax breaks for biofuels should most definitely cover the use of EITHER alkyl esters or SVO/WVO. Legislators should be concerned with setting policy, hopefully policy that leads and leaves the door open for technological development. There is sufficient evidence that some oils, in some systems, in some diesels will work just fine as alternative, renewable, vegetable-based diesel fuel, and that emissions will be reduced in a number of categories in line with biodiesel emission reductions, and there are energy and CO2 emission advantages, actually, for SVO on a life cycle basis over biodiesel. Inclusion of SVO also opens the door for a more direct flow from farm to end-user, new crops such as Canola and mustard, and in Washington's case, those arecrops that can be grown in the eastern part of the State, See the pdf version at this link of a study on this, specific to Washington State. http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1919/eb1919abstract.htm This allows for crop rotation and erosion benefits, deep tap roots for drainage and soil improvement, greater value-added and sustainable agriculture, and new markets and profits for Washington State farmers The oils from Canola and mustard are quite suitable for use in many diesels, as we know, without conversion to biodiesel. The seeds can be cold pressed on the farms, the oils sold direct to urban markets, and the meal fed to livestock, used as fertilizer, and in the case of mustard, used as a natural pesticide. These are areas that the legislators should be very interested in along with recycling of WVO in the simplest, most cost-effective way, perhaps by filtering and blending with the above new oils, to keep it out of landfills and drains. Educate the legislators early on, to include it in the scope, and let others deal with the technical and warranty issues - not those who are writing the broad policy directives that will act as drivers for change over the coming years. Certainly, do not allow a situation whereby one segment of the biofuels industry prospers at the expense of another by leaving a large part of the available information out of what legislators get to hear before they pass their various bills. Edward Beggs B.E.S. M.Sc. President, Neoteric Biofuels Inc. http://www.biofuels.ca On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 10:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ed, I have to disagree with your recommendation that biofuel advocates should try to get the WA legislature to consider SVO and WVO at the same time as biodiesel. I completely agree that the same priciples support the inclusion of both. BUT, we need to pursue goals that we can attain and appreciate that confusion is a major risk here and a tool that will be used against us. We need to have the crystal clear message that biodiesel(as B20) runs in diesel engines with no need for modification and with the (somewhat grudging) support of the OEM's. Putting SVO and WVO into the mix will confuse people and politicians regarding what biodiesel is and how it can be used and make passage substantially less likely. Biodiesel can lead the way for other biofuels but biodiesel will be less likely to get anywhere if it has to pull the weight of SVO and WVO. I hope that you will seriously consider whether this approach will yield the best long-term results. Best, Graham Original Message: - From: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Date: 16 Feb 2003 12:46:56 - To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuels-biz] Digest Number 490 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- - There are 6 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. RE: Q: price for glycerine in EU? From: Winny De Schryver [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. biodiesel in Washington State From: Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. ethanol excise tax
Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO and Renewables Obligation
Here is one possible answer: CONCLUSIONS Fueling with biodiesel/diesel fuel blends effectively reduced particulate matter, unburned hydrocarbons, and carbon monoxide while increasing oxides of nitrogen emissions. The optimum blend of biodiesel and diesel fuel, based on the trade-off of PM decrease and NOx increase, was a 20/80 biodiesel/diesel fuel blend. Increased NOx emissions can be reduced by retarding engine timing while subsequently maintaining emission reductions associated with fueling a diesel engine with a 20/80 biodiesel/diesel fuel blend. The retarded timing lengthened the ignition delay time. This reduced the peak pressure and temperature that enhance the formation of NOx emissions. FUELING DIESEL ENGINES WITH BLENDS OF METHYL ESTER SOYBEAN OIL AND DIESEL FUEL http://www.missouri.edu/~pavt0689/Fueling_Diesel_Engines_with_Blends_of_Methyl_Ester_Soybean_Oil.pdf Regards Reinhard Henning daponuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello, has anybody looked into using Waste Veg Oil in the context of the UK Renewables Obligation (in a 250-500Kw plant)? It isn't specifically mentioned in the Govt's priorities for the RO, but would obviously fit the bill for sustainability. Have there been any issues with emissions (given that waste incineration is fairly noxious and WVO may be lumped in the same environmentally-unfriendly bag)? I think Nitrous Oxide emissions are marginally higher than diesel, but that should be the only drawback... There should be none of the Heavy Metal and Dioxin problems. What about particles? Are there any specific planning regulations that need to be considered? Transportation should not be too much of an issue (the traffic movements would be minimal). I suppose noise and location would be paramount. I have received a document from the DTI for Developers in Anaerobic Digestion (with the various milestones etc). Does anyone know of a similar overview of the process required for WVO? Finally, I've heard that the EU may ban using WVO for animal food. This would potentially open up the market to partner in some manner with existing WVO recyclers for electricity generation (or take over the collection process if these companies fail). Does anybody have any details on the EUs plans? Any input re hurdles encountered from commercial implementations worldwide would be useful as well. Thanks, David Penfold BTW, I'm in the initial stages of research on this project so don't really have a lot to offer others wisdom-wise. If anybody else (preferably with an engineering background) is also looking at this in the UK, it may be worth getting together to pool resources. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO and Renewables Obligation
Hello, has anybody looked into using Waste Veg Oil in the context of the UK Renewables Obligation (in a 250-500Kw plant)? It isn't specifically mentioned in the Govt's priorities for the RO, but would obviously fit the bill for sustainability. Have there been any issues with emissions (given that waste incineration is fairly noxious and WVO may be lumped in the same environmentally-unfriendly bag)? I think Nitrous Oxide emissions are marginally higher than diesel, but that should be the only drawback... There should be none of the Heavy Metal and Dioxin problems. What about particles? Are there any specific planning regulations that need to be considered? Transportation should not be too much of an issue (the traffic movements would be minimal). I suppose noise and location would be paramount. I have received a document from the DTI for Developers in Anaerobic Digestion (with the various milestones etc). Does anyone know of a similar overview of the process required for WVO? Finally, I've heard that the EU may ban using WVO for animal food. This would potentially open up the market to partner in some manner with existing WVO recyclers for electricity generation (or take over the collection process if these companies fail). Does anybody have any details on the EUs plans? Any input re hurdles encountered from commercial implementations worldwide would be useful as well. Thanks, David Penfold BTW, I'm in the initial stages of research on this project so don't really have a lot to offer others wisdom-wise. If anybody else (preferably with an engineering background) is also looking at this in the UK, it may be worth getting together to pool resources. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] wvo
wvo already has a market in most parts of the world.adding demand for biodiesel production will soonerode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today. What is the WVO market? In the UK this market is in decline because of stricter aniamal feeds regulation. my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reaction the plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure). Is this because it's not made of stainless steel components? palm and coco oils are presently selling for u$s 200 a ton, refined. and the world vvo glut continues, and is projected to remain so for at least five more years. This is great if you live in Malaysia or can buy in 1000's of tonnes. as edison said after doing10'000 experimentsbefore he finally made a working bulb: 'i did not fail 10'000 times trying to make an electric bulb. actually, i discovered10'000 ways how NOT to make one' How come those guys in Florida are using WVO? Bet they made a few gallons of MUD (Messed Up Diesel) in the process of getting it right! using heavily used wvo, in my opinion, is one way NOT to make biodiesel. This is because of the area you live/work in .. not relevent to everybody on the list, particularly us in the UK. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [biofuels-biz] wvo
Dick Carlstein wrote: in answer to: From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]goat industries To: mailto:biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.combiofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] fuzzy standards The reason why Dick sneers at WVO is, it seems, because he hasn't (like ourselves) used the right recipe for using heavily used WVO. Is this true? no, paddy, not at all. the reason i shy away from heavily used wvo, is that a) it's a very variable feedstock, quality wise, b) it is expensive (in most parts of the world), for what you get (in argentina it goes for u$s 0.20 a litre, in spain for 0.21), c) it is a rigid supply scenario feedstock, and d) it is more expensive, complicated, and time consuming to transesterify satisfactorily. spain's wvo, for example, is superb for biodiesel. the fast food us wvo, is not. i find that dangling the lure of 'free' feedstock will eventually turn upon itself, as small operators have to confront the inherent variability of wvo. Small operators are well set up to confront the inherent variability of WVO, and many of them even manage to find a reliable source of supply, free, that gives them a consistent-quality feedstock. The inherent variability isn't invariably inherent. wvo already has a market in most parts of the world. adding demand for biodiesel production will soon erode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today. finally, there's just so much wvo available. increased demand is not going to increase production. people will not eat more chips because the waste oil they generate is going to be used to make biodiesel. This is very spurious reasoning, as such. First, nowhere is WVO recycled thoroughly. Everywhere that I've looked into it, and others have looked into it, there are large amounts not accounted for. Yes, it has a market, no, the market does not account for the full supply, and in many cases not even for most of the supply. Second, the WVO market is anything but stable as you say it is: there's just so much wvo available. Several times you sneered at the debate over Mad Cow Disease, for example, oblivious to the effect that was having on the WVO market in many parts of the world. A current message on the Biofuels list describes renderers in the US preparing to go out of business because the market for their products has vanished due to BSE concerns. This is not just tallow, it includes much ordinary WVO. Several institutes have devoted research time and resources to developing transesterification techniques for high FFA feedstock to divert tallow supplies to biodiesel. In general, prices of WVO have dropped over the last year or more in many parts of the world, sometimes by so much that collectors too are going out of business, and less is thus being collected. i am deeply grateful to my teachers at eng'g school, who hammered two basic engineering concepts into me: 'kiss', and 'if it works don't fix it'. in that spirit i soon came to realise that cheap can sometimes be very expensive, and thus focused on using reliable, predictable, readily available, feedstocks as the basis for my plant design. my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reaction. i don't even recommend the base/base reaction because it is time consuming, and cuts back plant capacity. the plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure). i am much more interested in empowering people in africa so they have access to fuel via their farming activities, that i am in solving the us mcdonald quandary. there are so many feedstocks available in the market, many of them not even edible (such as castor oil or jatropha), that to adopt consumer society habits as the basis for a universal undertaking such as 'making' energy, is imho, a dead end street. Where is the either/or here, that excludes all the more sensible both/and options? where are you going to get wvo in africa. or india. or china. or latin america in general ? Yes, well, all very laudable, though I've found your attitude to Third World rural development issues questionable, to say the least - you certainly don't understand peasant economies, and there's a long, long record of just such misunderstandings bringing more problems than solutions in their wake. That aside, how does it follow that because there's no WVO in Africa, India, China and Latin America, that makes WVO a non-viable feedstock where it is available? In fact there is a very great deal of WVO available in China, and in India, and indeed in many parts of Africa. Where there's WVO, use WVO. Where there's cheap virgin oil, use that. Where there's room for community development through local energy production from locally produced crops or crop by-products, do that. yet all of these locations have fantastic vvo production potential. and at a very low cost
[biofuels-biz] wvo
in answer to: From: goat industries To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] fuzzy standards The reason why Dick sneers at WVO is, it seems, because he hasn't (likeourselves) used the right recipe for using heavily used WVO. Is this true? no, paddy, not at all. the reason i shy away from heavily used wvo, is that a) it's a very variable feedstock, quality wise, b) it is expensive (in most parts of the world), for what you get (in argentina it goes for u$s 0.20 a litre, in spain for 0.21),c) it is a rigid supply scenario feedstock, and d) it is more expensive, complicated, and time consuming to transesterify satisfactorily. spain's wvo, for example, is superb for biodiesel. the fast food us wvo, is not. i find that dangling the lure of 'free' feedstock will eventually turnupon itself, as smalloperators have to confront the inherent variability of wvo. wvo already has a market in most parts of the world.adding demand for biodiesel production will soonerode whatever price advantage over vvo it might have today. finally, there's just so much wvo available. increased demand is not going to increase production. people will not eat more chips because the waste oil they generate is going to be used to make biodiesel. i am deeply grateful to my teachers at eng'g school, who hammered two basic engineering concepts into me: 'kiss', and 'if it works don't fix it'. in that spirit i soon came to realise that cheap can sometimes be very expensive, and thus focused on using reliable, predictable, readily available, feedstocks as the basis for my plant design. my plant is not capable of transesterifying wvo, unless it's treated previously, and cannot do the acid/base reaction. i don't even recommend the base/base reaction because it is timeconsuming, and cuts back plant capacity. the plant was really designed to do the base reaction, very reliably (temp and pressure). i am much more interested in empoweringpeople in africa so they have access to fuel via their farming activities, that i am in solving the us mcdonald quandary. there are so many feedstocks available in the market, many of them not even edible (such as castor oil or jatropha), that to adoptconsumersociety habits as the basis for a universal undertaking such as 'making' energy, isimho, a dead end street. where are you goingtoget wvo in africa. or india. or china. or latin america in general ? yet all of these locations have fantastic vvo production potential. and at a very low cost too (suggest you check out http://www.tinytechindia.com/) palm and coco oils are presently selling for u$s 200 a ton, refined. and the world vvo glut continues, and is projected to remain so for at least five more years. so, to each his own. i am free to choose, and have done so. as edison said after doing10'000 experimentsbefore he finally made a working bulb: 'i did not fail 10'000 times trying to make an electric bulb. actually, i discovered10'000 ways how NOT to make one' using heavily used wvo, in my opinion, is one way NOT to make biodiesel. it lights the room aok, but there are better bulbs available... hey, have some mead !!! cheers, dick. snots usually refuse to snip this is a public service message. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
AW: [biofuels-biz] wvo
As it was rather elaborate, I did take the liberty to snip a bit... Hi Dick, Thanks for explaining you process. So far we learned it is batch, one stage only. And you are outspoken against quality testing. Well, thanks, now me and everybody familiar with the properties of the actual transesterification reaction know what they need to know. As I am really couriouse, please give us an idea on the capacity and the price range of your plants. [hope others on the list dont mind?] And what do you think about product liability? I mean for you as a technology provider? Hope everything will allways turn out well for you in this respect. Camillo Holecek -Ursprngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Im Auftrag von Dick Carlstein Gesendet: Dienstag, 07. August 2001 23:37 An: biofuels-biz Betreff: [biofuels-biz] wvo in answer to: From: goat industries To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] fuzzy standards The reason why Dick sneers at WVO is, it seems, because he hasn't (like ourselves) used the right recipe for using heavily used WVO. Is this true? no, paddy, not at all. the reason i shy away from heavily used wvo, is that a) it's a very variable feedstock, quality wise, b) it is expensive (in most parts of the world), for what you get (in argentina it goes for u$s 0.20 a litre, in spain for 0.21),c) it is a rigid supply scenario feedstock, and d) it is more expensive, complicated, and time consuming to transesterify satisfactorily. snip... Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan
Hi Ken Thanks Keith, Maybe you could publish a dictionary on Biodiesel Jargon(hehe) Aaarghh!! (a) It would only encourage more jargon use, as well as jargon proliferation, exacerbating the considerable difficulties of (b) keeping the sodding thing updated. :-( Yeah, I know, you're kidding. no but seriously if we want people to be guided, then the resources for their inquisitive minds should be available. Like what happened to me, i was just looking for ways to make methanol(and i don't remember why i wanted to make methanol) and the search engine gave me biodiesel instead. Now i am making biodiesel and smelling like it. Good thing this stuff isnt toxic! But the point is that you guys made a webpage with all the information i needed really encouraged me to do it(Thanks alot again, you have made Mother Earth proud). :-) Yer more'n welcome. So the next evolution would be to make it more specific, how to test the used oil and from there classify the process needed to get good biodiesel. We've been pushing that. I think you'll find more about it at Journey to Forever than most places. And more coming. From the other messages, some have resorted to using virgin vegetable oil as raw material. From a business point of view that may be feasible but from an environmental view maybe not. We want to close the cycle of pollution(throwing away used oil) and making it profitable. No one said there wouldn't be any challenges. But how can victory be sweet if there is no sorrow. Keith, i'm very interested in the NIR spectrometer thing. Do you have any experience with that equipment? is it expensive? Yes, it's expensive, but the tests are much cheaper and simpler. And it needs one-off GC tests to serve as a baseline. Re which, see Steve's message today, Re: Enough waste oil? No, I don't have any experience of NIR. You should understand that I'm not in the biofuels-for-sale business, nor likely to be. I don't really have any interest in this group, I just started it because there seemed to be a need - I kept (keep) getting letters from folks wanting to go into biz and needing some advice. Anyway, Steve Spence turned up the original ARS news release and I followed it up by writing to Gerhard Knothe and uploading the papers he sent me. (As I said, we try to push the quality issue.) You see. Best Keith Addison Thanks Ken C. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan
Thanks Keith, Maybe you could publish a dictionary on Biodiesel Jargon(hehe) no but seriously if we want people to be guided, then the resources for their inquisitive minds should be available. Like what happened to me, i was just looking for ways to make methanol(and i don't remember why i wanted to make methanol) and the search engine gave me biodiesel instead. Now i am making biodiesel and smelling like it. Good thing this stuff isnt toxic! But the point is that you guys made a webpage with all the information i needed really encouraged me to do it(Thanks alot again, you have made Mother Earth proud). So the next evolution would be to make it more specific, how to test the used oil and from there classify the process needed to get good biodiesel. From the other messages, some have resorted to using virgin vegetable oil as raw material. From a business point of view that may be feasible but from an environmental view maybe not. We want to close the cycle of pollution(throwing away used oil) and making it profitable. No one said there wouldn't be any challenges. But how can victory be sweet if there is no sorrow. Keith, i'm very interested in the NIR spectrometer thing. Do you have any experience with that equipment? is it expensive? Thanks Ken C. At 04:46 PM 7/18/01 +0900, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WVO - waste vegetable oil what is VVO Virgin Vegetable Oil I suppose. It's yet another silly acronym, they proliferate like cancer cells, confounding comprehension and clarity. It's jargon, is all. All newspapers restrict these things, with good reason, but techies love 'em, scientists too - such scientists as the one who once asked me to dejargonalize his learned paper for him so he could get it published. (I sent it back to him undejargonalised, feeling as I do that writers should either avoid jargonalizationalism in the first place or do their own damn' disundejargonalizing, might help to focus their minds a bit - the more jargon, the poorer the work. Yes, the work, not just the writing.) WVO doesn't work well either, but it seems we're stuck with it - waste vegetable oil, yes, only it very often contains animal fats. But an attempt to get it fixed simply led to a further proliferation of noxious acronyms. In Britain they call it RVO - reclaimed vegetable oil, as if anyone else would understand that. Hell, most people don't even know what biodiesel is. :-( At Journey to Forever we generally use used cooking oil, not perfect, but better. Best Keith Addison Thanks for the clarification. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ - Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan
Thanx for the feedback Dick. Definetly something to consider. I'm actually looking at both VVO and WVO as feedstock. Something along the lines of D1 and D2. (or rather BD1 BD2) Ultimatly I'm looking at having an extruder on the property and processing the oil myself. This is still a very experimental part of the plan at this time. I need to learn more about oil extrusion and daily operating cost and volumes. The ultimate purpose of this whole project is to bring the profits closer to home for the farmers and keep my cost low. I currently have my recovery cost figured for WVO at $.25 (USD) per gallon. Ester treatment at ~$.65 per gallon plus distribution cost. (This cost include the use of a methane recovery machine.) I'm still trying to find current solid figures for VVO. If you have any please forward them to me or point me in the right direction. Also where would one go to purchase a few tankers worth of VVO? Is anyone on this list already in commercial production. If so do you have a gas chromo on your premises are have your contracted with lab to do your testing. I'm not liscensed to fly one of those things, just curious to see how ASTM standards are met. Thanks again Dick. cheers, cordain dulles, va From: Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:28:59 -0300 List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] in answer to : From: doctor who To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 7:53 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: Biz Plan (was)Quiet... My biggest challenge thus far hashas been finding an adequate WVO oil supply to keep up with my propossed plant size (1000 US Gallons input per 24 hours period). imho, a 4000 liter/day commercial biodiesel operation will eventually find itself painted into the proverbial corner. here's why: 1) pretty much inelastic supply. people can eat just so much bread, and use just so much oil. so supply in your area will be a function of demographics, more than any single factor. 2) thus, pick-up costs will escalate with volume, as the geographical area expands to meet increased feedstock needs. 3) wvo processing is costlier than vvo ditto. also less effective (biodiesel/wvo). and requires more initial capital input. 4) wvo often has an existing market. present users of same are not simply going to lie down and die. 5) 'cheap is expensive'. getting uniform biodiesel quality from wvo is a lot harder than getting the same quality from vvo. so what's the bottom line ? i would hazard that in the long run, wvo input costs will go up, as flexible demand meets inflexible supply, pick-up geography expands, and quality requirements go up. what is certainly an excellent cottage industry might turn out to be difficult to scale up, as you're finding out with your project. i am aware that fairly large operations are being run on wvo, but these appear to be based on corporate agreements, something like proverbial macd negotiating to sell all of it's propietary wvo (don't know about franchises) to a single buyer, in a given area, on a contractual basis. established wvo pick-up operators usually have contracts to supply industries such as animal feed, or soap. personally, i have espoused vvo as the feedstock of choice for our plants, it makes life so much simpler, has smaller fixed capital requirements and process costs, and delivers reliable quality. and last but not least, obtaining large quantities of vvo, on a regular, programmable, basis, is as easy as a phone call. two cents is all you get (:-D) cheers, dick. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WVO - waste vegetable oil what is VVO Virgin Vegetable Oil I suppose. It's yet another silly acronym, they proliferate like cancer cells, confounding comprehension and clarity. It's jargon, is all. All newspapers restrict these things, with good reason, but techies love 'em, scientists too - such scientists as the one who once asked me to dejargonalize his learned paper for him so he could get it published. (I sent it back to him undejargonalised, feeling as I do that writers should either avoid jargonalizationalism in the first place or do their own damn' disundejargonalizing, might help to focus their minds a bit - the more jargon, the poorer the work. Yes, the work, not just the writing.) WVO doesn't work well either, but it seems we're stuck with it - waste vegetable oil, yes, only it very often contains animal fats. But an attempt to get it fixed simply led to a further proliferation of noxious acronyms. In Britain they call it RVO - reclaimed vegetable oil, as if anyone else would understand that. Hell, most people don't even know what biodiesel is. :-( At Journey to Forever we generally use used cooking oil, not perfect, but better. Best Keith Addison Thanks for the clarification. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] WVO based Biz Plan
in answer to : From: doctor who To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 7:53 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: Biz Plan (was)Quiet... My biggest challenge thus far hashas been finding an adequate WVO oil supply to keep up with my propossed plant size (1000 US Gallons input per 24 hours period). imho, a 4000 liter/day commercial biodiesel operation will eventually find itself painted into the proverbial corner. here's why: 1) pretty much inelastic supply. people can eat just so much bread, and use just so much oil. so supply in your area will be a function of demographics, more than any single factor. 2) thus, pick-up costswill escalate with volume, as the geographical area expands to meet increased feedstock needs. 3) wvo processing is costlier than vvo ditto. also less effective (biodiesel/wvo). and requires more initial capital input. 4) wvo often hasan existing market. present users of same are not simply going tolie down and die. 5) 'cheap is expensive'. getting uniform biodiesel quality from wvo is a lot harder than getting the samequality from vvo. so what's the bottom line ? i would hazard that in the long run, wvo input costs will go up, as flexible demandmeets inflexiblesupply,pick-up geography expands,and quality requirements go up. what is certainly an excellent cottage industry mightturn out to be difficult to scale up, as you're finding out with your project. i am aware thatfairly large operations are being run on wvo,but theseappear to be based on corporate agreements, something like proverbial macd negotiating to sell all of it's propietary wvo (don't know about franchises) to a singlebuyer, in a given area, on a contractual basis. established wvo pick-up operators usually have contracts to supplyindustries such as animal feed, or soap. personally, i have espoused vvo as the feedstock of choicefor our plants, itmakes life so much simpler,has smaller fixedcapital requirements and process costs,and delivers reliablequality. and last but not least, obtaining large quantities of vvo, ona regular, programmable, basis, is as easy as a phone call. two cents is all you get (:-D) cheers, dick. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
