Re: t-and-f: MJ's splits in his 43.18 WR (was Negative splits in 440)
If you subtract out the start (at least 0.50 to 0.75, maybe as much as 1.20 based on the 50m splits), then the second half arguably *was* run faster. In any sprint event, the start becomes a major factor when determining average speed. Not nearly as significant in events not run out of blocks. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't mean to misread here--but I always thought the meaning of negative split is that the second half of a race is faster, not slower, than the first (as for example with Jim Ryun's WR 880 yards where he went out in 53+ and finished in 51+)--so MJ's splits in his WR 400 are not--by that definition--negative. His splits support my earlier note that the faster the 400 WR gets over time, the more even the splits are likely (likely!) to be. Mitch Further to Seville splits, here's what the video-analysis shows for Michael Johnson's World Record in the 400: 50m100m200m 6.14 4.96 (11.10)11.10 5.00 (16.10) 5.12 (21.22)10.1221.22 5.20 (26.42) 5.24 (31.66)10.44 5.52 (37.18) 6.00 (43.18)11.5221.96 * don't forget to consider the time out of the blocks! Jimson = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Re: t-and-f: MJ's splits in his 43.18 WR (was Negative splits in 440)
Ok, that obviously made zero sense. Message to self: Double check logic and math, then double check again, after being bed ridden for a week and a half... The numbers looked so purty, though. Dan --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan - I don't follow. If you subtract the start, then the second half was MUCH slower - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: MJ's splits in his 43.18 WR (was Negative splits in 440) If you subtract out the start (at least 0.50 to 0.75, maybe as much as 1.20 based on the 50m splits), then the second half arguably *was* run faster. In any sprint event, the start becomes a major factor when determining average speed. Not nearly as significant in events not run out of blocks. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't mean to misread here--but I always thought the meaning of negative split is that the second half of a race is faster, not slower, than the first (as for example with Jim Ryun's WR 880 yards where he went out in 53+ and finished in 51+)--so MJ's splits in his WR 400 are not--by that definition--negative. His splits support my earlier note that the faster the 400 WR gets over time, the more even the splits are likely (likely!) to be. Mitch Further to Seville splits, here's what the video-analysis shows for Michael Johnson's World Record in the 400: 50m100m200m 6.14 4.96 (11.10)11.10 5.00 (16.10) 5.12 (21.22)10.1221.22 5.20 (26.42) 5.24 (31.66)10.44 5.52 (37.18) 6.00 (43.18)11.5221.96 * don't forget to consider the time out of the blocks! Jimson = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Re: t-and-f: Radcliffe rival left out by Japanese
Naoko Takahashi, who won the marathon at the last Olympics in Sydney. After several hours of deliberation, however, the selectors came up with a team of three... Junichiro Koizumi, the Japanese prime minister, said: I feel sad. Can they add just another person by any means? Does the wild card rule not come into play for a 4th entrant? Or is that just for the WCs? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: multiple bs
--- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're a little troll Dan. Grow up. Into what, a big troll? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: multiple bs
Lovely. Long after the topic quitely slipped into oblivion, an anonymous poster chastising me for speaking of LSU's well known reputation, when in fact the point of my post run4t5 is objecting to was to not throw stones when your house is made of at least as much glass... I wasn't the one throwing stones (must be a case of Malmo's interpretive dimentia), rather defending those having stones thrown at them by media hounds. It is easy to point and shoot. Said by the anonymous poster. Uh-huh. Dan --- run4t5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And to think I thought all these postings were in regard to the bs Dan wrote in his ignorance to the chide of Cheryl Taplin and LSU with his thoughtless and narrow mindeness views of a group of hard working and devoted group of athletes and coaches who rose to the top. It is easy to point and shoot. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Scholarships and Injuries?
I always thought it depends on the wording of the scholarship. Some are mentioned specifically as being guaranteed in the case of injury, which would imply that others are not. In this age of fewer and fewer scholarships available, it isn't surprising that coaches would be hesitant to waste them on injured athletes. Of course, allowing scholarships to be yanked would be a dangerous precedent. A coach could run their athletes into the ground with the hope that a few would excel, and those who get injured in the process can be replaced with a new scholarship athlete. On the other hand, said coach would develop a bad reputation pretty quick. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most Universities have an appeals process which athletes can invoke when scholarships are withdrawn unilaterally. I believe the NCAA requires the schools to have such a process and it is to be conducted by personnel not connected with the athletic department. Anyone else? Floyd Highfill New Mexico State University = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Seattletimes.com: For Taplin, steroid use is an issue of integrity, not glory
This is what's so ridiculous about the drug situation. Everyone starts pointing fingers and jumping on the accusational bandwagon. I would never do it and it's an awful thing. There should be harsh penalties for so and so. Blah, blah, blah. I have no idea whether or not Taplin used steroids or other drugs, but LSU around her time there had a lot of suspicions pointed at it (oops, did I say that?). Odds are pretty good she either took stuff herself or had teammates who did. In either case, she couldn't have been *that* strongly against it, or she wouldn't have been there... Dan --- Paul Merca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PEORIA, Ariz. When she ran, Cheryl Taplin never left the track. The sun burned but she kept moving, pushing, straining, trying to forget the pain. It was the only way she knew. Hard work took her from Seattle's Cleveland High School to LSU, where she was a 16-time All-American, and then on to three gold medals in the Goodwill Games and a track World Cup in the 1990s. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Robinson re steroids
It makes a bit more sense in the full context: What you are doing is taking advantage, which is different than cheating, he said. To me, it's like what you have in the game now whenever a base runner relays the catcher's signs to the hitter. They call that cheating now, but when I played and we thought somebody was relaying signs, the pitcher would call out the catcher and tell him to do a better job of disguising the damned things. I think he's saying it's business as usual, so it isn't really cheating. Just taking advantage of the allowances that have always been there. Interesting spin, but not altogether unreasonable. Sadly amusing that baseball and football to a lesser extent have chosen to go down this road. I thought TF was the shining example for all sports of why not to dig into the drug closet... ...baseball's steroid controversy -- and what seems to be a growing split in player ranks -- is setting the tone for a mean-spirited season. Dan --- Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robinson said he does not believe that using steroids or other performance-enhancing substances is cheating. Oh man... http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040302/ROBINSON02/TPSports/TopStories Regards, Martin = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Robinson re steroids
But to say - aww, we've always done it, so it doesn't matter if it's against the rules is ridiculous. So ridiculous, in fact, that much of the world operates on that very principle. Right or wrong, it's the way things are. Dan --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It doesn't make any more or less sense in context. It is - in fact - altogether unreasonable. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say - the rule should be changed, we shouldn't ban drugs. I wouldn't agree, but it wouldn't be unreasonable. But to say - aww, we've always done it, so it doesn't matter if it's against the rules is ridiculous. Kind of a typical good old days attitude. I'm sure many old-timers who were around when Robinson was playing were beomaning the good old days when only white men played baseball. He can suggest eliminating the rule if he likes, but don't take this pansy-ass don't ask don't tell approach. As for whether Bonds is being singled out by his fellow players - he undoubtedly is. Part of it is the bad luck of having his trainer indicted. Doesn't mean he's not guilty, of course. - Ed - Original Message - From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 1:51 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Robinson re steroids It makes a bit more sense in the full context: What you are doing is taking advantage, which is different than cheating, he said. To me, it's like what you have in the game now whenever a base runner relays the catcher's signs to the hitter. They call that cheating now, but when I played and we thought somebody was relaying signs, the pitcher would call out the catcher and tell him to do a better job of disguising the damned things. I think he's saying it's business as usual, so it isn't really cheating. Just taking advantage of the allowances that have always been there. Interesting spin, but not altogether unreasonable. Sadly amusing that baseball and football to a lesser extent have chosen to go down this road. I thought TF was the shining example for all sports of why not to dig into the drug closet... ...baseball's steroid controversy -- and what seems to be a growing split in player ranks -- is setting the tone for a mean-spirited season. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Distance and Sprint Dominance
--- P.F.Talbot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This also seems to suggest that the old adage that sprinters are born while distance runners are made is wrong. Distance runners require few facilities and not even much coaching (I hate to say that, but it's probably true. Self coached distance athletes have reached the top of the sport while I've never heard of a self-coached sprinter--anyone?) while sprinters require extensive training facilities and constant coaching to get to the top. I don't particuarly agree with the ol' adage, but I don't think that's exactly what it is saying. The gist of the argument is that distance runners can overcome a lack of talent through hard work, whereas sprinters either have it or they don't. That doesn't mean a sprinter with immense talent will make automatically it, just that they have to have the talent to have a chance. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
Re: t-and-f: Distance and Sprint Dominance
Well, the t-and-f list has officially gone to shit. Apparently no one can read anymore, let alone conduct themselves politely. I don't particuarly agree with the ol' adage, but I don't think that's exactly what it is saying. The gist of the argument is... Very first thing I said. If it's unclear to anyone that I was clarifying the argument, not stating my own position, then I suggest you enroll in remedial preschool classes. --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is a load of crap. --- Steve Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brilliantly naive. My guess is that you've never seen a sprinter train. A couple of strides, a high knee or two and some stretching right? --- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Easy Steve, Dan's a novice fan. Morons (with the possible exception of Ed, who I can't tell if he was disagreeing with me or not). I expect it from Malmo, but anyone else sinking to that level of stupidity should be ashamed of themselves. Steve, try thinking before opening your mouth. I coached sprinters for 4 years, which should answer your idiotic question. And no, Malmo, you can't just delete threads here that disagree with you like on letsrun.com. Your attitude is on record for everyone to see. G'day. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
Re: t-and-f: Baseball and Dick Pound
Dick is apparently on a mission to sully the reputation of other sports as much as he has already helped due to his own. Good to see someone call his bluff. It's only an insult to those looking to be insulted... Irrelevant to anyone else. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it's an insult to the fight against doping in sport,an insult to the intelligence of the American public and an insult to the game itself. Dick Pound on the MLB steroid testing program If Dick Pound actually knew anything about the Major League Baseball testing program,I might give his views more than the irrelevance they for so long have been commanding. Gene Orza, legal counsel for the MLB players' union Not that I agree with Orza completely, but it's a pleasure to see Pound take a good public swat. Phil = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: Baseball and Dick Pound
Sorry, that should be do not due. Dan --- Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dick is apparently on a mission to sully the reputation of other sports as much as he has already helped due to his own. Good to see someone call his bluff. It's only an insult to those looking to be insulted... Irrelevant to anyone else. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it's an insult to the fight against doping in sport,an insult to the intelligence of the American public and an insult to the game itself. Dick Pound on the MLB steroid testing program If Dick Pound actually knew anything about the Major League Baseball testing program,I might give his views more than the irrelevance they for so long have been commanding. Gene Orza, legal counsel for the MLB players' union Not that I agree with Orza completely, but it's a pleasure to see Pound take a good public swat. Phil = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: ESPN.com Poll on doping in professional sports
Question #2's results seem rather contradictory to 3 and 4. Dan --- Randy Treadway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ESPN.com is conducting an internet poll right now (go there and you can vote too). The results might surprise you. Here's where it stands right now: 1) Were you surprised when you heard that four NFL players tested positive for the steroid THG? 95.3% No 4.7% Yes 2) What best describes the four Raiders who tested positive for THG? 63.8% The tip of the iceberg 32.5% A sign of moderate steroid use in the NFL 3.8% An isolated situation 3) What percentage of NFL players do you think use illegal performance-enchancing drugs? 36.0% 21-40 28.1% 41-60 20.3% 0-20 12.4% 61-80 3.2% 81-100 4) What percentage of Major League Baseball players do you think use illegal performance-enchancing drugs? 34.6% 21-40 28.6% 41-60 18.3% 0-20 14.2% 61-80 4.3% 81-100 5) How would you describe MLB's steroid policy? 43.7% A complete joke 32.9% A weak effort 20.4% A sensible start 3.0% An intrusion into players' private behavior 6) Barry Bonds' trainer is a target of the grand jury looking into the steroid THG. Do you believe Bonds has used steroids? 86.1% Yes 13.9% No 7) If an athlete is found to have used steroids, what should happen to his or her records? 42.6% They should have an asterisk next to them. 30.5% They should be left alone. 26.8% They should be erased from the books. 8) In which sport do allegations of steroid use cause you the most concern? 39.9% Olympic sports 38.4% Baseball 17.3% Football 4.5% None of the above -- steroid use is OK. 9) If your favorite athlete were found to be using steroids, what would you want to see happen? 41.2% He or she is suspended for a long period of time. 38.8% He or she is suspended for a short period of time. 10.7% He or she remains eligible to compete. 9.2% He or she is permanently suspended. Total Votes: 21,639 = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias
Also, notice that they didn't really specify if the comparable assistants were in different sports. My guess is the assistant track coaches aren't getting free cars and double her salary. Football, quite likely. Apples and oranges, though. Dan --- tafnut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If she was paid less than comparible assistants, then she has a good claim regarding past compensation; however, she probably should lose her claim on losing out on the weight event coach position based on Lance's longer, better, and more current athletic career. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Nov 13, 2003 10:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Oregon coach claims sex bias Former Oregon coach and national javelin champion claims she got a raw deal when Lance Deal was named throws coach for the recently combined men's and women's track program. full story at: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/11/13/a1.sp.sallyharmoncase.1113.html Jim Tysell = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: My third grader's math
Our sport still has hope in the United States! I wish I shared your hope... http://run-down.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1432 Dan --- Mike Prizy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My 9-year-old son asked me to help him with his third-grade math. He is studying decimals. This particular section asked the students to correctly place the decimal in each word problem. Of the 23 possible answers, three were about track and field, one was on auto racing, and no other sports were included. Our sport still has hope in the United States! Part A No. 2 - Linford Christie ran the 100-meter dash in 996 seconds in the 1992 Olympics. No. 3 - In the Same Olympics, Jan Zelezny threw the javelin 294166 feet. No. 4 - Valentina Yegorova ran the marathon in 2 hours, 32 minutes, 41 seconds. She ran a distance of 413 kilometers. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: Chambers could get brief ban
The IAAF, however, have a rule allowing reduced sanctions for athletes offering substantial assistance in a doping inquiry. Isn't that a bit hypocritical, considering how the IAAF responded to Charlie Francis' re-entry into the sport this year? Or do coaches not get the same incentives for coming clean? I suppose they could argue Francis' Dubin testimonial pre-dates the above rule (does it?), but that would be equally hypocritical, seeing as how they are pushing for re-testing of negative samples and retroactive bans. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
t-and-f: Charlie Francis' History of Drugs in Sport
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/180ana.html Should be something in there to interest everyone, regardless of what you think of the man or the drug situation. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: Oh no, another positive
That's not who Ben Johnson was coaching a couple years back, is it? Dan --- Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even the sons of dictators are now testing positive: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/world/2003-11-05-ghadafi-doping_x.htm = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: This Week's Sign that Track Apocalypse is Upon Us
--- Mike Prizy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. Don't brag Sean, I think Oprah's was a gun time! Uh, if anyone's time was a *gun* time, surely it was Puffy's. The entertainment mogul called his charity effort, Diddy Runs the City. Couldn't he have come up with something more creative, like Do Run Diddy? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Re: t-and-f: Track v other sports
My bad. I had meant to offend on the basis of politics, not religion. Dan --- Randall Northam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan I think this discussion has gone far enough without bringing religion into it. Some of don't even know when Easter is next year so we are at a disadvantage - guilty until proven inoccent you might say - when it comes to the dissolution of what I understand is an important Christian festival. Randall Northam On Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003, at 19:25 Europe/London, Dan Kaplan wrote: I've always felt the plateau of various events' marks is easily explained by the dissolution of the Easter Bloc. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: t-and-f: Track v other sports
I've always felt the plateau of various events' marks is easily explained by the dissolution of the Easter Bloc. This would cover the throws and all the women's sprints and mid-distance events. Taking that into account, I don't think the trends give us much to go on with regard to how testing has affected drug use. All we reallly know is that the major sports machines which were rewriting the record books in certain events stopped doing so. Dan --- Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why haven't women's distance event marks improved then? If you look at women's marks for the 1500m, the average top 10 mark has essentially been static since 1978, according to Malmo's favorite web site: http://digilander.libero.it/rzocca/ The 800 has actually gotten slower in that time. I think the averages for the 3000m also would show little improvement, based on the data in Quercetani's history. (The 5k and 10k don't have long enough histories to make a good trend analysis.) Given that women would probably gain even more from EPO use than men, this seems to be inconsistent with as widespread use of EPO as claimed. As for walk rules, I think the controversy in Sidney demonstrates that the rule changes have had little effect. It's just too easy to improve one's time by cheating a little bit more. I think it would be instructive to do a video comparison of elite walkers' techniques over time, say the last 2 decades. Richard McCann = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: t-and-f: more or less cheating
--- Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Retroactive testing could be a huge deterrent for designer drugs, It could be an even huger deterrant to fans. I don't know too many people who enjoy seeing their heroes stripped of said status years after the fact. I would claim it will cause people to leave the sport in droves, but there aren't enough left for it to have that effect... We can thank previous attempts at ridding the sport of drugs for that. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: t-and-f: Track v other sports
--- Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree. I think that many people believe that the current testing procedure has greatly reduced the amount of drug usage. Then why are we seeing such a huge scandal over the detection of a previously undetectable drug? Even the testers say this is only the tip of the ice berg. I see no evidence that testing has reduced the amount of usage; just driven it to alternatives that might be more dangerous even (exactly the opposite effect of the supposed aim of testing). Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: t-and-f: Track v other sports
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you took the lid off of drugging by completely eliminating testing you'd be running a huge gamble that the inevitable rapid jump in performance levels would be viewed by the public as completely a product of drugs, and not a product of athletes. Aren't we already there already with the testing system in place? I don't see how the steadily building hysteria can do anything but make the situation even worse. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Potential retesting
You must not read the Oregonian. They would much prefer document the Blazers' drug busts than cover the team's occasional positive moments on the court. Negativity sells, even in the big sports. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have an idea why the headlines read as they do, and it isn't just because it was a track coach who 'spilled the beans'. *The NFL and the Maguire-Sosa-Bonds record setting are extremely popular and for major newspapers' sports departments, it's their 'gravy train'. (I admit the only reason I subscribe to the L.A. Times is for their sports coverage- otherwise it's a pseudo-socialist political rag.) The very continued livelihood of sports editors and writers depends on continuity of the gravy train. *They are just as interested as the Players Unions and the NFL MLB to keep doping 'under the table' in their gravy train sports.. Their mortgage payment depends on a newspaper paycheck, which depends on subscriptions, which depend on gilded coverage of popular sports like the NFL and MLB. *If comprehensive testing, in season, out-of-season, on Earth, Pluto and Mars, by nothing sports like track field results in revealing that the entire NFL/MLB presentation is a big facade, these writers editors feel threatened. Subscriptions might drop. Jobs might get cut back. They may be on the street. *The result? An editorial edict: Cover it, but blame it all on track field. (USOC will more than happy to help). Make sure the focus stays on 'track and field on trial'. Keep the names of your gravy train athletes in typeface so small nobody notices, IF you even mention them at all. If anybody does some honest investigative journalism to 'get the goods' on the real facts, I have NO confidence that it'll be a major metropolitan newspaper. They're too busy trying to cover their posteriors and print vicious 25-year old unattributed rot on Arnold Schwarzenegger. (Both L.A. and N.Y. Times are totally guilty in my book). RT = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
RE: Re: t-and-f: who lacks intellectual honesty?
Ok, let's see if we can settle this once and for all. Those not interested in our little side spat, go ahead and hit delete now. I called you out for repeatedly making false and slanderous statements about me. Mr. Malley has a very selective memory, apparently. It was actually he who first turned things personal (I won't even include the comment he first made to me a few years back, berating my accomplishments as an athlete), saying I must've eaten too many of the brownies at the state (or was it county?) fair. Not hard to read between those lines. I responded with a snide remark at the end of my reply that he could now go back to his booze. That's the false and slanderous statement referred to above. Is it any more false or slanderous than what he directed at me? Not that I can see. At least what I said has some basis in reality, being that it is his reputation down in Eugene... Malmo's response? Demanding that I name the person who told it to me. That's just silly. I know I don't drink or do drugs, and anyone who knows me will tell you the same. Hurling such insults at me wouldn't phase me, because I know it's not true. In my experience, anyone who gets as defensive as Malmo did to my retort has something to hide, not that I can see any sense in someone who won't answer to their real name being worried about their reputation. If it weren't true, he'd have no reason to care. His calling me out consisted of repeated insults while I stated I had no intention of participating in the debate further. And he's telling *me* to grow up! So, Malmo chose to attack me on the basis of lack of ethics (just as he did Richard) and lack of ability as an athlete. Heck, I'm the first to admit I did nothing special on the track. Does that make me any less qualified to participate in the sport? Malmo quite clearly thinks so, but again, I honestly don't give a rip what he thinks. You have to give respect to get respect. I'm confident in my reputation with anyone who's worked with me, thank you very much, Malmo. There are a handful of area coaches on this list that can, if so inclined, speak to my reputation in the area of meet management, timing, and results. Walt Murphy has been the recipient of timely big meet results I've sent him for his weekly newsletter. Amby Burfoot has requested to meet with me in person. Coaches I've worked with think highly of me, and athletes I coached temporarily decided to quit the team when I quit coaching. I've got an Excellence in Student Leadership award to show for my work with the OSU XC/Track team and a published article on the history of the program. I put together and maintained a team website which is widely considered around the country as one of the best XC/Track sites for any level of college. I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but the point is, anyone who's opinion I value has a very different view of me than does Malmo. So, I ask the esteemed Mr. Malley, what have you given back to the sport other than having run fast 20 years ago? The ball's in your court, punk. Dan --- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The truth be told Dan Kaplan, I called you out for repeatedly making false and slanderous statements about me. The profanity was not as much as you really deserve. When I meet you in person it will be clear to you what is unaccepatable. Grow up, punk. malmo = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
RE: Re: t-and-f: who lacks intellectual honesty?
Richard, don't take it personally, Malmo said pretty much the same things to me recently when I had the audacity to call him out from behind his veil of b.s. I'm guessing you've received a few f-bombs and cute little insults in private messages? And I'm sure I'll receive a few more after this one... Sorry to further waste the list airwaves with this, but people who make a habit of talking to others that way should be held accountable. The more who know Malmo's true colors, hopefully the less likely he'll be to show them. Dan --- Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 02:46 PM 10/16/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure there has been error in my posts - but very rare - and certainly never a diliberate attempt at distortion. Are you trying to claim that I've deliberately distorted my posts. I've also had a few errors in my posts, and I have the courtesy to admit them. As to deliberate distortion, I have NEVER done that, and you better have pretty strong proof before you make such an outrageous accusation. On the other hand, I know that I have told you earlier that I do not work for UC and that I am a private consultant, yet you PURPOSELY ignore that information and attack me personally as having a biased viewpoint. It's pretty clear who's deliberately distorting information. I've caught you in one case here. How many other times have you done this? With the lack of intellectual honesty in your opinions about your hobby, I don't see how Californias energy policy will ever improve. I'm sorry that you believe that anyone who disagrees with you by using reasoned, logical argument and empirical proof that you seem to largely be incapable of comprehending is intellectually dishonest. I think you might want to look in the mirror before you look very far for that type of intellectual dishonesty. If you understood the wide range of clients that I work with, and the absolute necessity for me to have an intellectually consistent position that can withstand litigation scrutiny, you'd realize that I have to be completely honest intellectually, and that my positions must be derived from first principles, rather than jingoistic knee-jerk responses. At 02:53 PM 10/16/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Easy, Richard. I'm just pointing out your affinity for embellishment so that you might be more aware of it and spare us of it. I actually like you. One mistake is embellishment? Certainly no one has questioned the other facts that I've presented in this thread. Broad generalizations without factual support qualify as embellishments. I'm not attacking the messenger, I'm attacking the messenger's method. Call me selfish for wanting debate to have real boundaries and wanting you to respect them, if you want. No, the post clearly attacks me personally as biased. I see absolutely nothing that discusses my method. I also don't see any thing about establishing boundaries. I only see an attempt to undermine my personal credibility by trying to portray me as racist. It's pretty obvious. RMc = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: How big?
That gets to the unstated part of my previous post (below), which is that the physical averages will determine the best suited average (average for an elite, that is) runner per discipline, but a great runner will be a great runner regardless of body type. That sorta throws all the averages out the window, unless what you're interested in is what it takes to finish back in the pack. Dan --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tend to think you're both right - lighter 10K guys can and do move up, but the average numbers will continue to be heavier for the marathoners because on average there is a little more muscle resistance required. Now here's an interesting question - at what point between 10K and marathon would the scale start to tip to the heavier (pun not intended!)? If the marathon was on the track, would we not see the difference (I still think we'd see some difference). If the hour run was contested regularly, would those athletes be lighter than the 10K athletes? If the 10K on the road was an Olympic event, would those athletes be built more like marathoners or 10K track runners. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 8:42 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: How big? --- alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the marathon you must have muscles and connective tissue strong enough to handle the pounding. That's been a commonly held belief for some time now, but I think it's being pretty heavily refuted by the current crop of 5k/10k studs re-writing the record books. Tergat, Geb, Radcliffe, and now Rutto come to mind, and Laroupe and Khannouchi did their share of track running before focusing on the roads. As far as I know, their respective physiologies haven't changed as they've moved up. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: How big?
--- alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the marathon you must have muscles and connective tissue strong enough to handle the pounding. That's been a commonly held belief for some time now, but I think it's being pretty heavily refuted by the current crop of 5k/10k studs re-writing the record books. Tergat, Geb, Radcliffe, and now Rutto come to mind, and Laroupe and Khannouchi did their share of track running before focusing on the roads. As far as I know, their respective physiologies haven't changed as they've moved up. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Didn't SI run an article a few years back citing those surveys? I also seem to recall being told that the survey originated from USATF/TAC. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Templeton on Lagat
It seemed pretty obvious to me that he was referring to the science behind the testing, not the procedure itself. Relax, you'll live longer. Dan --- alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neither Bernard nor Coach Li nor I knew much about EPO testing when all this happened. That's total and complete bullshit. If you're at the top of the distance running game then it is one of your responsibilities to know about testing procedures especially if you're an agent or manager. Pleading ignorance just doesn't cut it. I'm sorry about my tone but I just don't buy this crap. , I also represented Dieter Baumann Well, that says it all. Alan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: Cheaters was Re: t-and-f: Lgat's B Sample Negative
Alan, your comments show a good deal of ignorance and event bias here. Muscle building drugs are also beneficial to non-sprinters/throwers, as evidenced by racewalkers and distance runners getting nabbed for roids. And certain elite distance runners are rumored to have been heavily into HGH. It's unlikely that endurance building drugs such as EPO have any impact on the explosive events, so if anything, the aerobic events could be seen as having more avenues of illegal drug abuse open to them. Dan --- alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sprinters and throwers are dirtier than distance runners. There are a lot more muscle building illegal drugs out there than endurance building illegal drugs. Your assumption is correct about that list but I wouldn't say ALL of them are dirty, just most. Can't hate a man for having an opinion. It just makes it easier to accept when the ax comes crashing down. Carl freakin Lewis was dirty for christs sakes. Isn't he the saint of US track and field? Alan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Michael Johnson calls for change
Wow, MJ went off the deep end this time. The sport has to admit that there are half the number of sponsors it used to have and that several competitions have disappeared due to lack of backers and financial woes. Then figure out how to get those sponsors back. As I recall, it was MJ who complained in an article earlier this year that the bib numbers with meet sponsors were an affront to athletes' rights to promote their own jersey sponsors (by covering them up). Can't have it both ways. Focus on, and get back to, the simplicity of the sport and what originally made it appealing, that is the competition between the athletes, and stop contributing to the obsession with breaking records. I agree entirely, but MJ based his career on chasing records -- on the clock and longevity and win streak marks -- and faltered worst when it was simply about the competition. Oops. The sport is at a point where it has to reinvent itself to move forward and possibly to survive. This may mean that some events won't continue to be a part of the professional athletics circuit even though they are part of the sport. Any guesses which two events he'll be voting to save? Talk about a conflict of interest. That's one issue where former athletes definitely should not be voting. Probably true for anyone closely involved with the sport, too. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: 'soft' marathon record
It should be pretty obvious that the marathon records have been soft of late. How? A new record results from nearly every record attempt. Same thing we saw in the mid-90's in the 3k/5k/10k when Geb, Komen, Tergat, and Hissou were going after it each meet. Now that those records are in line with the performance equivalents of shorter events on the track, record setting runs are few and far between. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: 'soft' marathon record, other Berlin stuff
It does seem a bit odd at first, but that might be due to think of doubled time, not doubling a percent dropoff. As the overall time increases, the percent age equates to more time being added on for the next doubling. Sort of makes sense that a well trained runner would hold a steady pace that is more or less constant relative to the different distances (if that wording is any clearer than mud). Dan --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It doesn't seem logical to me that the slowdown factor would be the same for each doubling of the distance. For instance, there is likely a higher or lower percentage slowdown from 5K to 10K as from half to marathon. That's not to say I don't think your numbers are pretty close - I suspect they are. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
t-and-f: naming sources
--- Gerald Woodward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (rumor mongers) do not have the decency to reveal their sources! If their sources are so valid, what do they fear by revealing them? Quite a bit, really. Many such things (not referring to just drug talk) are learned confidentially. Betraying that trust can get lots of people in trouble for leaking the information and burn bridges with the source. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Latest on White
Maybe not the best choice of words, but given the context the quote was probably given in, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Consider that she's commenting on a pending investigation with fairly significant ramifications to her career. I imagine she's been advised by lawyers to not say anything one way or the other publicly. And with the way the IAAF dealt with the Jones/Francis situation over the winter, it wouldn't surprise me if they've handed down a gag order of some sort. Dan --- Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some beauts in here but why not go with this one just for laughs and giggles: However, she backed off when asked directly if she has narcolepsy, a claim she made in Paris after the results of her drug test were announced. I don't want to answer that,'' she said. I'm trying to be vague with my answers. I don't want to get into that.'' http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/09/22/SPG6G1RRUF1.DTL Regards, Martin = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: naming sources
I was talking in generalities. It sounds like you're objecting to something specific, but I'm not sure what exactly. Who said anything about not being able to reveal names? You changed the situation there from won't to can't. Just because the source is anonymous, doesn't make something any more or less of a solid fact. Less reputable maybe, but not necessarily less factual. Dan --- Gerald Woodward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can't reveal the sources or give facts don't name names until you can produce solid facts. Then we eliminate all the other rumors, innuendos and garbage. Athletes and others can then maintain their good name and reputation unless and until something factual is proven. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Fwd: t-and-f: forwarded message (drugs, difference in philosophy, etc.)
Another one that apparently did not make it through to the list. Dan - Original Message - From: Conway Hill To: B. Kunnath ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're right ... Speeding CAN be dangerous ... Depending upon the individual and the situation ... But that is NOT why we have speeding rules ... And that was my point ... No matter how you feel as an individual the rules exist to protect the group within group (traffic) settings ... You talk about keeping the numbers down ... What numbers ?? And why keep them down ?? I am asuming that you are alluding to drug users ... But why do you want the numbers kept down ??? To serve what purpose ?? And you are right in that it is like drugs ... Everyone has their point of view ... Just as you do ... I, like you, am against drug use ... However, is our personal preference enough to say that those who choose too shouldn't - specially if there is no harm being done to the group ??? And yes I know someone said that laws are made by majority rule ... Except we are not talking about societal laws ... We are talking about laes/rules/regulations that only affect a minute portion of the population within an athletic endeavor ... Last time I looked professional athletic groups defined their own laws within the needs of the group ... And those outside it have no say !!! Which goes to the heart of the question ... It's interesting that since I started this thread there have been lots of presonal preference reasons given for outlawing drugs ... But not one that talks about harm being done to the sport ... There is the ever present we gotta stop the cheaters .. Except they are only cheating because we make a rule that says they are ... There is the ominous drugs are bad for you ... But as I stated originally there are many things (alcohol, smoking, et al) that are as bad or worse that people do each and every day without consequence ... Why do we get to make personal choices/decisions and they don't/shouldn't ??? Many of you are killing yourselves by smoking ... Should the gov't make you stop since you are an inherent danger to yourself ??? And the interesting thing is that most of you are s pationate about athletes not being alowed to use drugs ... As if their use is a personal afront to you ... You want PURE competition ... Unaided competition ... Then as one poster stated you would have to do away with all technological advances ... Shoes, poles (fiberglass), Mondo surfaces, any and all training supplements, vitamins, enhancements, the use of computers to aid in development of training programs ... Hell how about professional level coaching while we are at it But the initial question was very simple and still lies unanswered - why do we test ??? Not why do you want us to test ... But why do we ??? The system and plan that is in place, why does it exist ??? - Original Message - From: B. Kunnath Conway, Speeding by itself CAN be dangerous, much like drug use. My point about comparing speeding with drug use was that if people re aware of the rules and the rules are enforced, that in itself is a detterent for SOME people not to think of doing it. Noone knows how many athletes take drugs, and just making things illegal without more serious consequences and more frequent testing can only make it easier for larger numbers of athletes to cheat. You and Dan asked the qstn, why test. Simple, to keep the numbers down. Just like most people dont speed becuse we know there might be a cop around the corner, Im sure the same goes for athletes and drugs. The more obstacles we can place and the more difficult it is to get away with it, the less people are willing to try it. Like everything else in life. Maybe I have too much faith in science, but I believe we can eventually get to a point where it can be all but eliminated. Lets not give up on the fight before we get there. bob __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: USATF News Notes
I heard so little about this meet, I'm curious if anyone knows why the men's 100m purse was so big. $1 million for an end of season, non-championship meet? Why such a big investment in a meet that got virtually no publicity? Was it really the equivalent of the *entire* GL circuit from a financial standpoint??? Not to mention 7x the amount paid to the women's winner. Dan --- Michael J. Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gatlin wins $500,000 in Moscow Reigning world indoor 60-meter champion Justin Gatlin captured one of the biggest cash prizes in track and field history in winning the men???s 100 meters Saturday at the Moscow Challenge. Gatlin crossed the finish line in 10.05 seconds to win a jackpot totaling $500,000. Great Britain???s Dwain Chambers was the runner-up in 10.18, and pocketed $150,000. Other Americans in the field included world record holder Tim Montgomery (3rd-10.19), 2003 World Outdoor Championships 200m gold medalist John Capel (4th-10.23) and 2003 world outdoor 100m finalist Bernard Williams (5th-10.33). Reigning world 100m champion Kim Collins of St. Kitts and Nevis was seventh in 10.37. The third through eighth place finishers shared the remainder of the $1 million purse. Americans made it a sweep of the 100m competition in Moscow as Chryste Gaines continued her late season domination with her win in 10.98 seconds. Gaines, who won the women???s World Athletics Final last week with a personal best of 10.86, got off to a fast start and hung on to win the $75,000 first place prize. Gaines defeated runner-up Christine Arron of France by .02 seconds, and 2003 world outdoor 100 and 200m champion Kelli White (11.21). = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: oxygen masks
I've always assumed it's richer air, i.e. higher concentration of oxygen. If that's the case, and if it really works, then players wouldn't need to be on the sideline as long to recharge. Unless you're running a two-man relay in track, there isn't nearly the same need to get your wind back in a timely fashion. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...just something I'm curious about after watching college and pro football for another weekend... After multiple long runs, a running back or wide receiver or kick returner will go over to the sideline and take long drags from an oxygen mask. It's become pretty much an expected thing. Also, late in the game when one team's defense has spent a LOT of time on the field and they are pooped, the entire defensive line can be seen sitting on the bench, sucking on oxygen masks in unison! :) That's become pretty much a joke- literally sucking air. My question is- do oxygen masks on football sidelines really ACCOMPLISH anything? Can't players get just as much air just by bothering to breathe? Or there some kind of 'happy air' being pumped through those masks? Track athletes exert a heck of a lot more, but I don't see rows and rows of oxygen masks just past the finish line of the men's 10K at the World Championships, for all the finishers to jump on. Are oxygen masks some kind of 'old football coaches tale' that has become gospel in the sport of football, but don't really do anything (except the placebo effect) ? ...just wondered RT = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
t-and-f: forwarded message (drugs, difference in philosophy, etc.)
I'm forwarding this message for Conway, who for whatever reason cannot get any of his messages through to the list. If a list supervisor can respond to one of us (his email address is below), that would be appreciated. When all the mud slinging, suspending, accusations, etc are done my question is: What is clean? Who defines it? THAT is really the major issue behind it all. Why do we test? I have yet to have anyone in the know give me a clear answer. Is it for the athletes safety? Is it to provide a level playing field? And if so, why? And who defines level playing field? Based on what criteria? I would never take drugs personally, either performance enhancing OR recreational. But people DO. Performance enhancing AND recreational. Many of you on this list, as do many IAAF officials and normal human beings consume alcohol which once upon a time was the center of the Prohibition movement - which treated consumers of alcohol the same way users of performance enhanacing drugs are treated today. And arguably alcohol consumption has and will lead to more deaths than performance enhancing drug use ever will! There are those that consider the consumption of alcohol a sin! Who's rules? Who decides? Are all of you who consume alcohol NOT clean people? All successful societies have rules. However, rules need to serve a purpose. The need to have some reason for existing. From what I've seen the drug rules have no reason other than to say that some people are good and others are bad! You can't legislate morality. Otherwise alcohol use would have been stopped long ago. As would marijuana use. And many other things. You can never have a level playing field as some people are more genetically inclined than others. Some federations have more money. Somem countries have better development programs. Some better coaching. So, aside from routinely making the sport look amateurish, poorly run, corrupt, and drug ridden, why are we testing? We're saving who? Leveling what? Accomplishing what? Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: forwarded message (drugs, difference in philosophy, etc.)
The only athletes I've heard of against doping are the ones getting beat. Dan --- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And the athletes, by a huge margin, are against doping and support bans for those who do. Trying to distort the debate by suggesting that a few European Aristocrats are responsible for unjust rules is not reality. Those who support doing away with doping controls are limited to the staff of Track and Field News and a handful of internet malcontents. malmo = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Slavery was pretty embedded as a fact of life in the South before the Civil War, and the feasability of changing it was low--very low--nearly impossible (most would have said)--but it was finally changed because a small group of passionate people felt committed to what they believed was right. Simple enough, let's just go to war to put an end to performance enhancing drugs. That is, after all, what ended slavery. Not any moral high road. All that aside, it's a lot easier to prove someone is partaking in slavery than it is to prove they are on undetectable drugs. Is there in fact general agreement that it's not a health issue and it's not a moral issue? What kind of an issue is it? That's just it, there's no clear definition of what sort of issue it is. It's wrong seems the best attempt made thus far. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry - is there a question over whether this is a health issue? Yes, most definitely. There is a health component to it, of course, but that seems to be more of a justification for some underlying moral objection. Take caffeine, for example. Who's health is being protected by limiting stimulants to below the levels many average people consume on a daily basis? Steroids are used throughout the medical profession. They obviously aren't all bad, so if health were the only reason behind drug rules, why not regulate steroid protocols that could make healthier athletes? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
--- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VERY few average people consume enough caffeine to reach the banned level on a regular basis. 5 cups a coffee a day? I know quite a few people that consume that much regularly, and I don't exactly hang out in coffee drinking circles. And certainly people who do consume that much have potential health effects. What, like yellow teeth and shaky hands? But don't start minimizing the health risks - there absolutely are substantial health risks to prolonged use of most banned substances. I'm not attempting to minimize them, but like John Liccardo asked, where's the evidence that there really are health risks? As has been discussed before, intense training itself is a health risk. The only way I see to draw a differentiating line, short of hard evidence about the long term effects of various drugs, is to have a preconceived notion of right and wrong and apply it to the two sides. Pretty backward way of arriving at a meaningful conclusion. Life is not black and white and neither is this issue. I look at the big picture and see the combination of health risks and fair play and conclude that we should continue to ban drugs. That's a very prudent approach. However, I do the same thing and come to the opposite conclusion. --- Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's why for decades scientific studies kept being published that said that steroids didn't work - didn't enhance athletic performance. Because, being ethical medical professionals, they tested them only at the modest therapeutic doses. The flip side of that is the question raised above: If the scientists have only tested at modest levels, then it's hard to make a very compelling argument for what the health risks are of prolonged, heavy usage. When it comes to side effects, beyond a few anecdotes of this or that athlete getting sick or dropping dead, those athletic hyper-doses are uncharted territory - especially for long-term use Precisely. There will be freak occurrences as the result of any activity. Steroid use may not be all that harmful, for all we know. Steroid protocols designed to make healthier athletes would by definition be low dose and thereby also do away with the performance benefit. Then the question becomes What's the point? Roughly the same point as banning something with low/no risk and low/no effect. If neither makes any sense on its own, then the only reason for not trying the alternative is the old moral objection. Funny how that keeps entering the picture when it's supposed to be all about health. --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Probably not, but if it were shown to be safe, would we be any worse off than we are now? Just throwing ideas out there. Some may work, some may not, but we've already got a system that's as close to a disaster as possible. Hard not to improve on it with wholesale changes. You have to start with a premise in order to reach that conclusion. I can think of several situations that I would consider more of a disaster than the current one, including: 1.No restrictions on substances or substantially fewer restrictions 2.Only substances with medically proven health risks banned 3.No options to appeal a positive test #3 would definitely be bad, but #1 could go either way and #2 seems by far the most sensible thing to base any rule on. Overall, I say those three changes are roughly neutral. We are far from being as close to a disaster as possible Without actually trying to do worse, I have a hard time imagining how a sport could micro-manage itself into a worse corner. Consider the alternatives. Loosen the drug restrictions, and with a bit of clever marketing to hopeful distract the naysayers, do away with all the negative perceptions and get the focus back on the competition. If reports about current usage levels are remotely accurate, that aspect probably wouldn't change all that much. If anything, people using the supposedly more dangerous (and less detectable) designer drugs might be *healthier*. Free up who knows how many millions of dollars currently spent on drug testing, administration, and legal fees, and put that back into advertising and paying the athletes. Imagine if suddenly all the events were contested on the GL circuit and the year-end prize was $10 million instead of the current $1 million! That's something I would look forward to watching. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (malmo) wrote: One thing for sure, Dan, it would be YOU who's having flashbacks, not those who oppose doping. Malmo, I know how you love the vague one-liners, but pray tell how exactly that would be. I can live with being wrong, but at least try making some semblance of sense when you try contradicting people... If personal remarks are your thing, let me point out that at least one of us never took performance enhancing drugs. --- Randy Treadway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You guys keep going back to the gladiator mentality. Isn't that what sports are? Because you say it's the only game in town, and today's elite gladiators like it that way. Where are the complaints? That is, other than by the athletes who are complaining because their doping program no longer is up to snuff, i.e. King Carl. Well how many elite gladiator potentials are being scared off, and ever MORE will be scared off in the future, because they don't WANT to dope and turn into zombies? Some, to be sure, but I'd wager a guess that the number is insignificant relative to those who deem it an occupational hazard and have the natural talent to put the drugs to good use. Is there no game for the CLEANIES to play professionally? Sure there is. They just might not make a living at it. At this rate, professional TF is definitely NOT anything I'd encourage any of my kids to pursue Why not? What's to stop them from fully enjoying 15-20 years in the sport free from drugs? No offense, but what are the odds they could even go on to a professional career? That is, after all, what we're talking about. That and being overly dramatic... Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
Dan Kaplan wrote: If personal remarks are your thing, let me point out that at least one of us never took performance enhancing drugs. Lest I be accused of hypocricy, let me make a correction and a clarification. That should be *illegal* performance enhancing drugs, as I've gone on record several times as having experimented with creatine. Also, I did take ephedrine for about a week for allergies and felt like my heart was going to explode. Didn't compete during either of those periods. There, I've come clean. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport
--- Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So one response, not a solution, to the drug problem would be to strictly define the levels of money influence or professionalism. Maybe no one caught it in my response to Randy, but I don't believe that approach will be any improvement. Setting a salary scale doesn't change the fact that people will be jockeying for positition just to make the cut, so there will always be incentive to do whatever's necessary to improve. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Re: t-and-f: Another Kenyan Positive !!!!!
In my opinion, it's even more likely that they're doping to keep up with the Jones'. In this case the Ethiopians. The Kenyans don't seem to like falling behind in that rivalry, and it's not just one person beating them anymore... Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you think about it a little more the Kenyan's are probably resorting to performance enhancing drugs to beat other Kenyans as the competition there is so great these days. Somehow I don't think they are taking anything to beat US athletes, it's almost laughable that you'd even consider it. :) David = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Another Kenyan Positive !!!!!
--- B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dont think it was ever stated that it was IMPOSSIBLE for the Kenyans to cheat. Yes, it most definitely was, and in very clear and passionate terms by those closely involved with top Kenyans. Search the list archives if you don't believe me. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Lagat now
--- B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Next, IF (and again a big IF) he is guilty, I hope he has the guts to come clean on the whole issue. In my eyes thats the only way he could save some face. Do the right thing and tell all. Who was involved, how he cheated, who else is in on it, where he was doping, in the US or in Kenya. Out some people that may have used the same sources, etc. Others have tried doing that, and they've been labeled poor losers or much worse, and their credibility is immediately torn to shreds. Just makes the situation worse. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Lagat's manager speaks
James Templeton 3 September 2003 JT's not still on the list, is he? His categorical denial of Lagat's wrong doing sounds a lot like his categorical denial a few years back that Kenyans could possibly be doping. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: White etc
--- Ed Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: how can she just as suddenly add 17 pounds to her frame, all, evidently, in the right places for improved performance. Believe me, things that like do not happen without some extra help. It's unlikely, but hardly impossible. I added 10 pounds in a mere 3 weeks from taking creatine and upping my weight routine. Nothing against the rules there. As for time improvements, White was more of a 200m specialist before this year, so who knows if she had really touched on her 100m potential previously. I believe she's had a number of injuries in the past, so that has to be taken into account when looking at sudden improvements. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Kelli White narcolepsy
Rather than see this debate continue as to whether Kelli White is the poster child for all that's wrong with the sport (at least she wasn't one of the notable athletes in Paris this week suddenly sporting braces!), I would hope more people would drop the nationalistic leanings and realize we've been down this road way too many times ... and it's invariably bad for the sport. So what if White took a possible stimulant? I doubt it's the worst thing in her system, and probably no worse than what many of her competitors are hopped up on. Gee whiz, I'm doped up on soy milk at this very moment. The same IAAF who is supposedly considering a lifetime ban against Jon Drummond for exposing a very poorly thought out rule and untested technology is still doing everything in their power to rid the sport of all entertainment value by tearing down some of the brightest stars, and sadly, far too many on this list are all too happy to partake in the self-destruction. Kelli White is an entertaining athlete at the highest level of her sport and presumably did what was necessary to get there (in all facets of training). Do we need to know any more than that? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Kelli White narcolepsy
That's what the whole point *should* be, but it's not clear that the intention of drug testing has ever been clearly defined. It's some vague combination of levelling the playing field, protecting the athletes' health, and purity of the sport. If it were just about protecting the athletes' health, then I doubt caffeine would show show up on the banned list. But even if that *is* what it's all about, then that brings us back to the question of what right anyone has to dictate how people treat their own bodies? Might as well ban smoking and drinking for the general populace, while we're at it. Dan --- P.F.Talbot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The whole point of banning a substance is that it is dangerous to the athlete. I haven't heard anything about the negative side effects the IAAF is trying to protect Ms. White from. What are they? If it's banned simply because it improves performance then shoes, blocks, a good diet and training should be banned as well. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Kelli White narcolepsy
--- B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This whole drug debate is like flogging a dead horse. Funny how the response from the conservative side is always along the lines of how pointless the conversation is. Stick to the status quo and everything will take care of itself. Yeah right, that's sure gotten the sport to a good place. People on drugs find ways (and sympathizers) to get off the charges. I take it that means you think I'm as big a part of the problem as those taking the drugs? Well, I think you're just as big a part of the problem ... so there! Now we're getting somewhere. Before you spew nonsense about how easy it is to steer clear of all the drug testing loops, why don't you volunteer to take one of the tests and see what surprises show up in your system. Whatever your views on drugs and cheating, you can't deny that many of the biggest doping scandals in TF have involved very questionable circumstances on the side of the testing. Be it a chemical state that could not have gone through the system, tests that apparently cannot (or have not) be supported such as T:E for women, unknown metabolite combinations or whatever like nandrolene, or now White's possible stimulant that isn't even banned. It's a complete mess and it's only getting worse. Sorry, but it takes a great deal of ignorance to believe all you have to do is write down what pills you're taking... Its got to be clean cut: if you're busted, like White, Jerome Young etc, you've got to go. NO EXCUSES, NO SYMPATHY. And what will that accomplish? If White is guilty of cheating, like you obviously believe, then let's put the pieces together. She was guilty a year ago and she is guilty now, so presumably she was also guilty in between, correct? What about all the races she won during that time and all the tests she presumably passed? The system you're proposing is the absolute most unfair system possible -- it harshly punishes those unlucky enough to get caught and casts a blind eye on what's going on the rest of the time. Unless the testing is highly reliable for all the drugs out there, well, it shouldn't be relied on. If you're not, play on until you get caught. Ah, so you're only in the wrong if you get caught? Gee, there's a great set of morals to play by. And if they havent been caught its absolutely meaningless to come here or anywhere else spreading rumors about it. Why? Because it upsets you to hear opposing views? If it can eventually lead to change for the better, then there's nothing meaningless or time wasting about it. By the way, who was the last athlete to get busted and admit to it? Ben Johnson, of course. What exactly is your point? Finally, if watching grown men getting into a hissy fit is your idea of entertainment, Im sure Drummond will be around to keep you happy. Ouch, without a doubt the most scathing remark I've seen in a long time... Dunno if I can recover from that one. Please point out where I said that Drummond's post-DQ antics were entertainment, smart ass. I said the *competition* is entertainment and he was justified in his vehement protest over a ridiculous disqualification that took away from the competition. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Sandrock: Buffs set to open 2003 season
Or you could get off your high horse and let people talk about whatever aspect of the sport interests them. Dan --- Wayne T. Armbrust [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh boy! The World Championships are still going on, two weeks until the Grad Prix Final, and you guys are talking about collegiate XC. If there were any collegiate distance runners who were actually any good, I'd give you a pass, but unfortunately there aren't. Give it a rest for another two weeks, at least! magpie wrote: Mark Wetmore is over in Paris, getting ready to watch ex-Buff Jorge Torres race in the IAAF World Track and Field Championships 5,000-meter final Sunday evening. You can be sure that Wetmore, the head coach at the University of Colorado, will also be keeping an eye on this year's cross country teams, which open their 2003 season Saturday with CU's annual team time trial. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Sandrock: Buffs set to open 2003 season
I don't see it. The lead-in was Wetmore being in Paris to watching one of his athletes. Is it such a stretch that he'd also be interested in how his team performs back home? No attempt at comparing the relative importance of the two as far as I can tell... And if CU cross country isn't elite, then there's a lot of topics taking up list space that should be shot down equally quick. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or you could get off your high horse and let people talk about whatever aspect of the sport interests them. You've gotta admit that a segue straight from the Stade de France to a collegiate cross country pre-season time trial in Colorado requires a HUGE leap in thinking and a tongue placed firmly in cheek :) Mark Wetmore is over in Paris, getting ready to watch ex-Buff Jorge Torres race in the IAAF World Track and Field Championships 5,000-meter final Sunday evening. You can be sure that Wetmore, the head coach at the University of Colorado, will also be keeping an eye on this year's cross country teams, which open their 2003 season Saturday with CU's annual team time trial. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Edwin Moses Comeback?!!
What is he now, 45 or 50? Maybe coming back in the Masters ranks... Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: IAAF Council Meeting Report
It also sounds like a very murky interpretation of what the electronic blocks are supposed to be accomplishing. Are they to be relied upon or not? If not, get rid of them or use them as an informational device only. Dan --- edndana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Council also agreed that a clearly defined procedure needed to be established to avoid repetition of such incidents in future. Among the specific procedures that are being considered are to: Ask starters to use their discretion to avoid disqualifying more than one athlete at the same time, but aim to disqualify only the instigator of each false start. That sounds like: a) a violation of the rule as currently written b) a lot like the NCAA rule = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Fw: IAAF DISQUALIFIES JON DRUMMOND FROM WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS
The IAAF is now waiting to receive a full report from USATF on the conclusion of its investigation before considering if any further action is necessary. I'll gladly give them a full report and even help them with what action to take ... I'll tell them where to shove it. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Drummond DQ
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By the way, the IAAF electronically recorded reaction times show that Drummond went BEFORE Powell, not the other way around. Went may not be the proper choice of words here. From those I've heard from lucky enough to actually *view* the World Championships, it wasn't a matter of forward movement, rather pressure on the block. I have a hard time seeing what the purpose of the technology is when it is used with an interpretation that does the competitors no good. It certainly doesn't accomplish any levelling of the playing field or making the sport more entertaining. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: DQ Farce in Paris Men's 100
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could have insisted that that set of starting blocks be impounded for calibration testing to prove or disprove the basis of your appeal. They could pass all calibration tests and still be guilty of being poorly applied technology. The rules themselves need to be looked at, not the equipment. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Kenyan Drug Scandel
--- B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read this nonsense and all I can think of is those lame stories in the National Enquirer and others who talk of sources close to the star said blah blah blah.. No difference at all. Sure there is. Tabloid stories have the underlying motivation of selling magazines and making a lot of money. If you can enlighten me as to how that is no different from the TF drug accusation situation, then I will be quite impressed. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Kenyan Drug Scandel
You conveniently ignored the first half of my statement, which is that the tabloid accusations have the underlying motive of making money. There's no such incentive in this case, so your assertion that the two are exactly the same falls apart quickly. Dan --- B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - From: Dan Kaplan If you can enlighten me as to how that is no different from the TF drug accusation situation, then I will be quite impressed. Very simple Dan, The rags are looked down upon because they use these sham sources to hide behind, and so we are left to either believe them or not. In most instances the writer in never held accountable (except in the rare cases that the mag is sued). So it ends up being a convenient way to basically lie to the public and make up a sexy story. Likewise in the drug postings. Every time Ive asked someone to come forward and actually put names, dates and locations, theres some major backpedalling. I have yet to see a single person come on here or any other running page and claim point blank that he/she has witnessed or specifically knows of someone doing the dope. So you see its really the same thing. All Im asking for is complete disclosure not yellow journalism. I mean, who are you protecting? After all dont you want to expose drug users? Well, then go ahead, nows your chance. And heres the reason all this bothers me. What if Ondieki (or anyone else) really IS clean (as I like to think anyway) and just had a spectacular season. Didnt Billy Mills come out of nowhere and win gold? How unfair are these accusations to him and other equally innocent atheletes who probably have done no wrong? bob - Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Slaney for Hall of Fame?
of the doubt. It is almost impossible to prove a negative, which is why we say innocent until proven guilty. Finally, someone making a bit of sense! Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Jericho Mile at Athens?
This story goes back about a year and a half. I've heard about it from 3 different angles, including from Dick Brown himself in a fair bit of detail. I'm inclined to agree with the angle that says it's largely promotional. If I heard it right, the runner in question got out of jail last Thursday, so we ought to know before long if he's in anywhere near the shape that's been reported. Dan --- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This story doesn't just float from one major media platform to the next on its own. Someone is peddling this thing. Regardless, Dick Brown should be held to shame for being involved in any manner with this con. I'm all for second chances, but ex-convicts need steady employment not another con to perpetuate. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin J. Dixon I believe that it said in the article that his pre-incarceration pb in the mile was 4:17. I guess the story has subsequently been on CBS and ESPN. Regards, Martin = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Fwd: OSU Adds Women's Track And Field, Cross Country
Let's not drag Title IX into this one... It's highly unlikely OSU would have come to its senses and brought back a xc/tf program of any sort if not for the Title IX requirements. Trust me, I've probably been more involved in that battle than the rest of the t-and-f list combined. The sad irony is that all the reasons given in the article for why it makes sense to have the program were deemed inconsequential when it was cut in '88. Maybe worse is that they had a *great* track facility a couple years ago that was only in need of re-surfacing, but they tore it down over some half-baked hotel plans that, as far as I know, never materialized as envisioned. Still, I'm glad to see the long rumored announcement has been made official. I just realized, I'm wearing my OSU Track Field -- We're Back (No Really!) shirt as I type this... Dan --- Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Title IX strikes again. Bean counting at work Apparently, OSU doesn't want any male students studying for natural resources or engineering Richard McCann OSU Adds Women's Track And Field, Cross Country Beavers will resume competing during the 2004-05 academic year OSU SPorts Information 07 Jul 2003 CORVALLIS, Ore. - Oregon State University will add women's track and field and cross country to its athletic program beginning in the 2004-05 academic year, OSU athletic director Bob De Carolis announced Monday. The move is being made to keep the Beavers in compliance with the membership requirements for NCAA Division I-A. Fielding teams in cross country, indoor track and outdoor track will give OSU 18 intercollegiate athletic programs; the minimum for Division I-A is 16. It will also move the Beavers toward compliance with Title IX gender equity requirements. Also, the profile of the middle- and long-distance runner is that many of those students choose to go into natural resource studies or engineering, and those are two fields in which Oregon State University has some of the nation's best programs. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: OSU- Women's Track
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the history of dropping the program? Adding a program is a good thing, so why is it a negative. Dangerous question. You'll get a different answer every time... There was a lot of negativity, disinterest, and lack of athletic department support surrounding the program at the time of its demise, and the women's team was hardly fielding performances worthy of the level of competition. As much as I've worked for OSU eventually getting a program back, I have to admit that I'm skeptical this will pan out. I've seen first hand how little support there is for track within the school's administration and student body. The women's side of things historically (in the 80's as a full fledged program and again in the 90's as a club team) has seen embarrassingly weak participation. Fielding 5 decent runners for XC will be quite an accomplishment... Not a great foundation to build from, in my opinion. It may all come down to who they hire as a coach. It'll take someone very good and dedicated to overcome all that history. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Timing yourself in an indoor 5,000M?
But as always, there's two sides to every story... I basically didn't know my 800m PR from my Junior year of high school until my Junior year of college due to two separate timing mishaps. The first was during an early season all-comers meet my Senior year of HS. I felt I ran my best race by far, but no one got a time on me (back of the pack in a much faster than expected race). Several people in the stands thought I finished in the ballpark of what would have been a big PR... Frosh year of college, 1st or 2nd meet, another screw up in the form of a 5 second timing discrepancy. Coach had me at about what I felt I ran -- not a PR -- the official results had me 5 seconds faster. Injured most of the track season Sophomore year and didn't do much, then finally ran a time Junior year that was well clear of any of the previous confusion! Rather frustrating in hindsight. I never did take to racing with a watch, though. Dan --- Jim Gerweck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love it when some kid who's so inculcated by the nuances of road racing reaches to hit his watch at the end of a race, and gets beat by another who ran through the finish and counted on the timers to do their job. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Timing yourself in an indoor 5,000M?
Watches have been worn in international competition for as long as I can remember (which only goes back 15 years or so, and that's on a good day). Dan --- Ray Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought not wearing a watch was an NCAA rule which was enforced at the championships? I never wore a watch on the track anyway but I vividly remember the day when the clerk confiscated all the watches right on the starting line at both the NCAA's and at international meets when I competed. Anybody else remember this? = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Chapa protesting???
Looks like he's also holding Salazar back... Maybe they were both protesting something? Dan --- Lee Nichols [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah. I see. Maybe he was just a little slow. (Irony intended) ;-) Lee I assume he means why is Chapa's jersey inside out? At 12:31 PM 6/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: What's the deal with this pix? Was Rudy protesting something? http://libweb.uoregon.edu/exhibits/track_and_field/tf05.html Looks to me like it's just a photo gallery. = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Volzing
I officially nominate the below as the most moronic post of the year. Anyone care to step up and challenge it for the title? Dan --- lacc7 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I apologize as it is late: But - Do you clowns really think that there is something analogous in your arguments? To replace a bar, which one has specifically knocked off, is patently illegal. The hand replaces a bar that has been knocked off - that is hardly a judgement call. God! And we so hope not to tax the officials! Where do your officials come from anyway? Are they the same ones who stated categorically that there are arms of Mass Destruction in Iraq? This is not a call about colors in some stupid uniform . An intelligent rule is a rule - to use sophistry is simply wrong! Leo = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
