t-and-f: Re: Dropped Men's Programs-Updated List
I was sent the following chart by a feminist sociologist arguing that the overall numbers prove that Title IX has had no appreciable impact on men's running programs. (she makes the point, somewhat dubiously, that Title IX was not enforced much during the 1980s, but has been in the 1990s as the number of male participants has actually grown). How do the cross country figures break down...anyone know?? Any comments welcomed... NCAA Participation Figures for Outdoor Track and Field 1981-1982 to 2000-2001 MEN WOMEN Year# of teamsparticipants# of teams participants 1981-2577 18,806 427 9,217 1982-3587 18,565 462 9,785 1983-4579 19,421 472 10,242 1984-5581 20,189 482 10,914 1985-6572 19,731 520 11,554 1986-7569 19,055 526 11,430 1987-8564 18,126 537 11,520 1988-9557 18,297 540 11,993 1989-90554 17,850 537 11,569 1990-156618,100 553 12,191 1991-2580 18,214 561 12,246 1992-3582 18,179 574 12,838 1993-4588 18,294 582 13,436 1994-5588 17,800 593 13,896 1995-6651 21,953 656 17,614 1996-7622 19,220 641 15,553 1997-8625 19,355 649 15,979 1998-9637 20,405 671 18,216 1999-2000 635 20,123 662 17,788 2000-1638 20,271 673 18,339 -- Jon Entine 8650 Pipewell Lane Cincinnati, Ohio 45243 (513) 985-0372 [FAX] 985-0373 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Dropped Men's Programs-Updated List
You can add Georgia Southern University to that list. It dropped men's cross country in 1999 (and never had track on the men's side, I've been told). -- Jon Entine 8650 Pipewell Lane Cincinnati, Ohio 45243 (513) 985-0372 [FAX] 985-0373 http://www.jonentine.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:44:53 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Dropped Men's Programs-Updated List Updates are coming in hot and heavy, so I thought I'd get out this latest list. Thanks to all of you who responded so quickly. Some programs (e.g., San Jose State, Oregon State) were dropped a long time ago, before the current Title IX-related frenzy. I'll leave it to others to determine what effect Title IX had on the decisions that led to the more recent changes at these schools. Walt Murphy Austin Peay (kept x-country) Bowling Green (kept x-country) Bradley (kept x-country) Cal-State Los Angeles (dropped x-country) Canisius (will drop both track programs after 2003 season) Cincinnati (dropped indoor) Georgia State (kept x-country) Hawaii Jacksonville (kept x-country) Lincoln University(Div.II) Massachusetts-Amherst (dropped indoor) Miami/Ohio (dropped indoor) Mississippi State (dropped x-country, may bring it back) Nebraska-Omaha(Div.II) Nevada-Las Vegas Nevada-Reno New Mexico State (kept x-country) Northern Colorado (dropped x-country, moving from Div.II to Div.I) Northern Illinois Northwestern Old Dominion (dropped both programs) Oregon State Pacific (kept women’s x-country only) San Diego State San Jose State South Carolina (dropped x-country) Southern California (dropped x-country) St.John's (will drop program after 2003 season) Tennessee-Martin(kept x-country) Tulane (kept x-country) Vanderbilt (kept x-country) Vermont Wisconsin-Green Bay (kept x-country, dropped both track programs)
t-and-f: FW: Title IX: school's dropping men's track...
This was posted on a sports sociology list vis a vis the debate over Title IX and the cutting of men's programs. Comments welcomed... -- Jon Entine -- Forwarded Message From: Welch Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: The Chronicle of Higher Education Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:05:46 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Title IX: school's dropping men's track... I'm trying to stay out of this, but just to offer a couple of historical notes: * Theresa Walton alluded to the fact that the Supreme Court essentially voided Title IX for all programs save university financial aid in Grove City College v. Bell in 1984. In the Civil Rights Restoration Act, passed in 1988 over a presidential veto, Congress expressly stated that Title IX was to cover all aspects of scholastic programs, including sports. Many men's programs were dropped during these four years for a variety of reasons, but gender equity wasn't among them. Many women's programs were dropped, too. * The dramatic expansion of women's opportunities and the gradual cutbacks in some men's sports did not really start until after SCOTUS ruled that plaintiffs in Title IX cases could get money damages (Franklin v. Gwinnett County Public Schools, 1992). That, and subsequent lawsuits filed by female athletes at Auburn, Brown, and Texas, really got schools' attention. * To be blatantly self-promoting, you can find a lot more about Title IX on our website devoted to the subject: http://chronicle.com/indepth/titleix . One thought I haven't gotten into a story yet is the thought that the Title IX debate really is an affirmative action debate. Once you wade through the emotion from male runners (like me), wrestlers, and swimmers, the dilemma is whether you think the government should allow the market to dictate opportunities in things like scholastic sports, or you think that the government should require schools and colleges to allocate opportunities equitably among advantaged and disadvantaged opportunities. This is an interesting theme in the discussions of the Ed Dept's commission, which can be found at http://www.ed.gov/inits/commissionsboards/athletics/transcripts.html. I hope this is of interest. --Welch -- Welch Suggs Athletics Editor The Chronicle of Higher Education 1255 23rd St NW Washington, DC 20037 [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: 202.466.1047 fax: 202.452.1033 http://chronicle.com/athletics Jon Entine wrote: Theresa: Interesting results, though you overstate when you write that Title IX was in fact not being enforced during the 1980s. In fact many, there is substantial evidence that many universities were adapting to the realities of Title IX by cutting men's programs. Also, I don't think anyone suggests that Title IX is to blame for any and all cuts. I don't think we make progress on the issue by caricaturing the controversy. Again, the issue is: what can be done to modify a reform mechanism that no longer reflects the intent of its drafters and is having an impact in ways that were never anticipated and are antithetical to those interested in preserving Title IX as an instrument of reform. Do we preserve a system that is clearly out of date and having deleterious consequences, which will eventually result in an even worse backlash than we have even now, and will ultimately kill reforms -- or do we find ways to tweak the system to preserve and improve its viability. I would vote for the later. On 1/9/03 7:12 AM, Theresa Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting list. When the numbers from the NCAA participation studies are analyzed, they clearly show that most men's 'minor' sport programs were dropped in the 1980s when Title IX was in fact not being enforced. In looking at men's outdoor track and field there was a loss of 23 programs in the 1980s and a decline of 956 athletes (577 programs in 1981-2, 554 in 1989-90; 18,806 participants in 1981-2, 17,850 in 1989-90). The 1990s by comparison witnessed an increase by 72 programs (to total 638 by 2000-1) and 2,171 more participants (to total 20,271 by 2000-1). So, it's disengenious to suggest without question that Title IX was to blame for any and all cuts. Moreover, given the current economy and the condition of state budgets, the 2000's will clearly witness tough times for education (and by extension athletics) -- eliminated Title IX will not address that bigger issue. Regards, Theresa At 08:48 AM 1/8/2003 -0700, Jon Entine wrote: A track and field list I subscribe to is abuzz with talk of the fallout of Title IX... With many college's dropping men's track as the result of Title IX. One of the sad repercussions of the current interpretation of the rules is that schools that want to keep a sport on an intercollegiate basis with NO scholarships and very little costs (such as track in the case of some of these schools) cannot do so because they have to meet strict and uncompromising quota systems. I don't think that any reasonable person
t-and-f: Essay by medical geneticist with Academy of Arts and Sciences on'human differences' -- and why different 'races' do better in differentsports
Do Genetically Based Differences Explain Some (or Much) of the Pattern of Different Sports Performances by Population? I just ran across an article in the current Daedalus, which is the magazine of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences... a very, very prestigious science journal. It discusses quite clearly (I believe) why there are biologically based differences that can (and in fact do) account of sports performance disparities and other behavior differences between population groups. It's not much different than the points I've raised. Here are two excerpts relating to sports; most of the piece is pegged to the larger issue: To any sports observer it is obvious that among Olympic jumpers and sprinters, African Americans are far more numerous than their frequency in the population would predict. The disproportion is enormous. Yet we also know that there are many white people who are better runners and jumpers than the average black person. How can we explain this seeming inconsistency? There is actually a simple explanation that is well known to geneticists and statisticians, but not widely understood by the general public or, for that matter, by political leaders. [HE THEN EXPLAINS] I have already mentioned the gross overrepresentation of African Americans among Olympic runners. This is closer to a true meritocracy than anything else I can think of: a stopwatch is color-blind. *** The entire essay can be downloaded on PDF format by going to the following web page and clicking either James Crow's name or the title of the article -- they're both the same link: http://www.daedalus.amacad.org/issues/winter2002/winter2002.htm It's a great complement to my article, The Straw Man of 'Race' (World I, September 2002) which discusses the 'politics' that drives the way this issue is discussed. That's at: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/straw_man_of_race.htm * Here's the first few paragraphs: Unequal by Nature: A Geneticist¹s Perspective on Human Differences James F. Crow In February of 2001, Craig Venter, president of Celera Genomics, commenting on the near-completion of the human genome project, said that ³we are all essentially identical twins.² A news headline at the time made a similar point: Are We All One Race? Modern Science Says So. In the article that followed, the author quoted geneticist Kenneth Kidd: ³Race is not biologically definable, we are far too similar.² Venter and Kidd are eminent scientists, so these statements must be reasonable. Based on an examination of our DNA, any two human beings are 99.9 percent identical. The genetic differences between different groups of human beings are similarly minute. Still, we only have to look around to see an astonishing variety of individual differences in sizes, shapes, and facial features. Equally clear are individual differences in susceptibility to diseaseand in athletic, mathematical, and musical abilities. Individual differences extend to differences between group averages. Most of these average differences are inconspicuous, but somesuch as skin colorstand out. Why this curious discrepancy between the evidence of DNA and what we can clearly see? If not DNA, what are the causes of the differences we perceive between individuals and between groups of human beings? DNA is a very long molecule, composed of two strands twisted around each other to produce the famous double helix. There are forty-six such DNA molecules in a human cell, each (along with some proteins) forming a chromosome. The DNA in a human chromosome, if stretched out, would be an inch or more in length. How this is compacted into a microscopic blob some 1/1000 inch long without getting hopelessly tangled is an engineering marvel that is still a puzzle. ...8 more pages... -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
The following article in The Black World Today (and another in Africana.com) addresses an aspect of TF athletes in the winter Olympics... -- Jon Entine http://www.tbwt.com/views/specialrpt/specialrpt_0249.asp Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter Sport Tradition 02-22-02 By Jon Entine Guest Contributor The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics, by bobsleigh pusher and brakewoman Vonetta Flowers, comes as a shock only to those unfamiliar with the history of success of blacks in this daring sport. Bobsledding is the only Olympic winter event in which black athletes have not only competed, but thrived. That black athletes or athletes of color in general have not taken most winter sports by storm should come as little surprise and of no automatic indication of racism. After all, skin color is a geographical marker with darker shades correlated with warmer climes. By the numbers, there are far fewer blacks in countries that dominate winter sports or in the northern regions of the United States from where most winter athletes hail. But bobsledding is different. This year there are three blacks on the men's and women's teams, about par for recent US squads. Flowers is joined by two-time Olympians Garrett Hines and Randy Jones. Just a few days ago, Hines missed a medal in the two-man by a heartbreaking .03 seconds. All three are runners, the athletes who launch the sled, then jump in for the ride. The most critical factor in bobsledding is the start. If it's explosive, it can give a two- or four-man team an edge that can sometimes overcome a lesser-quality sled or a bumpy ride. Flowers and her teammate, driver Jill Bakken, attribute much of their win to incredible starts in their two runs. Hines, Jones and Flowers also share athletic backgrounds: they are former sprinting stars. That's not surprising to those familiar with the science of body types and athletic performance. According to scientists, African Americans, who are of West African ancestry, are the population group most likely to have explosive fast twitch muscle fibers. It's a strong genetic component what type of muscle fiber you have, either slow or face says Bengt Saltin, director of the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center. According to Saltin, who just received an award of his own at these Games, selected as the 2002 recipient of the IOC Olympic Prize on Sport Sciences, African Americans and other populations of West African ancestry, should continue to flourish in sports that require quick speed bursts. West Africans have already 70 or 75 percent of the fast type when they are born. And that's needed for a 100 meter race around 9.9 seconds. Because quickness is so important, it makes sense that the most explosive contemporary athletes-blacks who trace their ancestry to West Africa-would be among the best bobsled pushers. Flowers was a seven time All-American at the University of Alabama who turned to bobsledding in a fluke a few years ago after she failed in her dream to make the US Summer team going to Sydney. Jones ran track and played football at Duke University while Hines starred at both sports at Southern Illinois, Needless to say, none of these elite bobsledders grew up fantasizing about risking life and limb running reckless down ice chutes. Consider Hines's story. As a young boy growing up in Memphis, he certainly never gave winter sports much of a thought. He dreamed about being a professional basketball player, dunking hoops with Dr. J., or sliding past Magic Johnson for an easy lay-up. He was fast-like lightning, he remembers. Instead, of pursuing basketball, however, he ended up running track and playing football before becoming a two-sport star in college. Hines earned an undergraduate degree in biological science and a Masters in education from SIU. In 1992, after graduation, one of his college buddies decided to try out for the US bobsled team. What the heck, Hines thought. So they piled into the car for the twenty-two-hour drive to Lake Placid to pursue their crazy whim. When he and his friend pulled into town after a day-long drive, there was more snow than Hines had ever seen in his life. He went on to shock even himself by making the team as a pusher-the second person in the two-man and one of the two runners in the four-man bobsled whose job it is to launch the sled careening down the mountain. I was so scared I almost quit right there, he recalled thinking after his first training run. Hines remembers the Nagano Games because as the first time an African American had a realistic shot at an Olympic bobsled medal. He recalls his final run, standing atop the mountain, prepared to hurtle down an ice-slick run at speeds topping 80 miles an hour. Hines glanced across at teammate and fellow pushman Jones, who now owns his own computer upgrading and repair company. Jones
Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
Alan: Unfortunately, Alan, your analysis is flawed and reflects as usual a determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types by population. For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority. That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against. I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever written and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase innate superiority once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use such phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced, bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman' argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that disingenuous issue. And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either. Again, another strawman argument. The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping somehow minimizes the findings that the distrubution curve of quick athletes of West African acnestry is longer and thicker than most other populations is just silly. For the record, I never argued the relative importance of genetics vs. cultural/environmental factors. They are obviously intertwined. For you to The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally distributed by population. That is science 101 (or actually junior high level science). I guess evolutionary biologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and sports scientists, such as Bengt Saltin do not have your sophisticated, nuanced view of such issues. It's clear you know little about bobsledding. The pusher/runner position is dominated by athletes who are the fastest and quickest. It is without question that people of West African ancestry are more likely, per capita, to have those characteristics than other population groups. So it is therefore not surprising that the runner position in bobsledding is fertile terriitory for athletes of West African ancestry. Now Kenya is trying to become involved in international bobsledding. They are no more likley succeed in that endeavor than they will succeed in becoming an international soccer power, come to domiminate sprinting, or turn out the next great long jumpers. It won't happen, any mor than Eskimos will come to dominate as NBA centers or a Watusi will become the next world heavyweight lifting champion. You are obviously disinclined to acknowledge even this very basic science of body type distribution patterns. That's your choice. Some people believe that the earth is flat. On 2/23/02 10:28 AM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oxymoron? Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter Sport Tradition The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics... How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed. XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road. Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on the iceless track. Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating. Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks, chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Again, WHY THIS OBSESSION WITH nationality. It's absurd, especially in the light of the silly barbs thrown my way. But as for your latest barb, you are flat out wrong I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. And as for why runners of US, UK and Northern European stock are not doing as well as years ago, there are probably a number of explanations for it. One of the most compelling is that runners of US, UK and Northern European stocknow have to compete in a world that is not unfairly skewed to their benefit. The playing field is more level (although Africans still have far fewer opportunities...wait until the field gets even MORE level!!!). Few runners want to put in the grueling effort necessary to possibly achieve elite status when they more or less know that considering the current competition, they are likely to fall short of their goals. In other words, just as whites have left pro basketball in droves, blacks avoid weight lifting, and American, British and Canadian Blacks avoid distance running, whites are RATIONALLY turning away from distance running in droves to pursue other things (including sports) in which the effort they will have to expend is likely to be rewarded. That is a rational response by MOST US, UK and Northern European stock but certainly not all, since there is a lot of human variation. Moreover, the clear advantage of blacks of West African ancestry in the sprints is far more impressive than disparities in distance running. The body type/physiological advantages of certain populations in distance running is quite small, meaning there will likely always be competitive whites, Asians, etc. and even an occasional Coe and Cram. But don't hold your breath if you think that the old days' will return. It just can't happen. On 8/13/01 4:12 PM, Rich Harrington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon, You have consistently failed to acknowledge why athletes from the US, UK and and Northern European stock are running more slowly than they did in the past. If they were running at the level of Cram, Coe, etc., perhaps they would be more competitive. Rich Harrington -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM To: Track and Field List Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago,² he added modestly. Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle
t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago,² he added modestly. Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, they¹d challenge for gold. Certainly, Coe¹s 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britain¹s reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didn¹t compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it can¹t change the hard reality that Britain¹s middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more levelrunning is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South AmericaNorthern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coe¹s best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliott¹s stands at 45, Cram¹s at 67, and Ovett¹s at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coe¹s whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who destroyed Coe¹s long-held 800-metre record in 1997. I lived right next door to school, he laughs. I walked, nice and slow. The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in 100-mile weeks, there are others, like Kipketer, who get along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among world champion wannabees in Britain and Europe. The explanation for African domination of running, it turns out, can be found mostly in the genes. ³Africans are naturally, genetically, more likely to have less body fat, which is a critical edge in elite running,² notes Joseph Graves, Jr., an African American evolutionary biologist at Arizona State University. Evolution has shaped body types and in part athletic possibilities. Don¹t expect an Eskimo to show up on an NBA court or a Watusi to win the world weightlifting championship. Differences don¹t necessarily correlate with skin color, but rather with geography and climate. Genes play a major role
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Malmo: You are an angry person... Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without question, the underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and unequivocally. How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have to deal with in the confessional both. On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM To: Track and Field List Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the mens 1500 metre final at Sundays World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the worlds dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ½So where is the problem? wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ½The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands - run faster. Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ½brutal commitment of days gone by - ½the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago, he added modestly. Heres a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts whats behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, theyd challenge for gold. Certainly, Coes 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britains reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didnt compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it cant change the hard reality that Britains middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more level-running is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South America-Northern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coes best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliotts stands at 45, Crams at 67, and Ovetts at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coes whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who destroyed Coes long-held 800-metre record in 1997. I lived right next door to school, he laughs. I walked, nice and slow. The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in 100-mile weeks, there are others, like Kipketer, who get along on less than thirty. ½Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world, notes Colm OConnell, coach at St. Patricks Iten, the famous private
t-and-f: New genetics report on ethnic differences
To those who try to understand the patterns of success in track and field, this week's flood of genetics reports are quite helpful. They make it crystal clear that the assertion that there are no meaningful biological differences between populations, echoed by some (for ideological reasons), is out and out pseudo science. It denies our respect for human diversity (to which most people just grant lip service). (See Reuters article below, one example of many) These findings (which frankly are not new to those who keep up with the literature and the debate) shows that there is huge genetic variation found in humans, and by populations/ethnic groups. As Kenneth Kidd of Yale was quoted in yesterday's NY Times: DR. KENNETH KIDD, A POPULATION GENETICIST AT YALE UNIVERSITY WHO WAS NOT CONNECTED WITH THE STUDY, DESCRIBED THE DATA AS VERY IMPORTANT AND SAID IT CONFIRMED HOW MUCH GENETIC VARIABILITY EXISTED IN THE HUMAN POPULATION. HE CHIDED THE GOVERNMENT FOR HAVING STRIPPED ETHNIC IDENTITIES FROM THE PANEL OF PEOPLE WHOSE GENOMES HAVE BEEN SEARCHED. These findings further underscore the threat to open debate by creationism on the right and the insistence by some ideologues that the differences within and between populations are genetically insignificant. To truly understand some of the ethnic patterns that dominate sports today, every thoughtful fan, journalist, historian, and sociologist needs to incorporate this information into their perspective. *** Huge Genetic Variation Found in Human Beings By Will Dunham WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The notion of a uniform genetic blueprint for human beings took a tumble on Thursday, as the most detailed examination yet of variations in the genetic makeup of people detected unexpectedly large individual differences. Researchers with Genaissance Pharmaceuticals Inc. of New Haven, Connecticut, found astonishing variance at the genetic level in 82 unrelated people primarily from four racial backgrounds -- white, black, Asian and Hispanic. In studying 313 genes -- out of the 30,000 identified by human genome scientists -- the Genaissance researchers found that for each gene, there actually are on average 14 versions that can be inherited by a given person from parents. The researchers said their findings should cause scientists to rethink the definition of the human genome, or genetic map ...and so on (from Reuters)... -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Young phenom's
Does anyone know what happened to the running family from southern California, the Garritson's? About 13 years ago, the family had five or six runners who were the best in their age group including the star, Carrie, who led the women's adult division of the LA Marathon in '87 (I believe) through the first half? I never heard anything about any of them since. Does anyone know if they all burned out, or whether some competed in college or beyond? -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: How much talent/genetics do you need?
One problem with this thesis: you assume that if ones talent is slow to emerge except with hard training equates with not being at the top of the talent scale. That's a huge assumption, not testable, and therefore specious. The very definition of talent is that it is there. I believe you confuse innate capacity with innate ability. There is NO SUCH THING AS INNATE ABILITY. Those who emerge through hard work have innate ability, which they unlocked through hard work (understanding that tapping talent is different with different people and body types). Without such innate capacity, all the hard work in the world would come to naught. No matter how hard Donovan Bailey may train, he will NEVER become an elite marathoner. Never. Ever. On 5/26/01 3:43 PM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have always wondered where we draw the line on talent. You could argue that Bill Rodgers who only ran in the 4:30, 9:36 range in high school didn't have a whole lot of talent. You could also point to many others who ran comparable high school times yet went on to win many elite races. You could say that their talent didn't show through because of the lack in training, but wouldn't talent show through despite training? I would have to agree with something that Malmo has pointed to over and over again. The faster you run the more talented to become. So, I'll stick with my statement that you can still win many elite races while not being at the top of the talent scale with loads and loads of hard consistant training because there have been those whose talent did not show through in high school but got more talented as time went on. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: How much talent/genetics do you need?
On 5/26/01 7:08 PM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting Jon. I'll give you one thing, you sure do make people think and bring up interesting conversations. You bring up something interesting. Just how testable is talent/genetics? If a high school runner runs extremely well off of limited training (Kennedy) one would assume that runner is blessed with talent. But, if a high school runner does not run extremely well in high school but goes on to bigger and better things even after taking a significant amount of time off (Rodgers) you would have us believe that the reason his talent surfaced is because of genetics. I must not have been clear then. I believe his talent surfaced because of his hard work. But if he didn't have endowed talent, all the hard work in the world would not have brought it to the surface. What would make more sense is that his training over the years is the reason why he could take time off, then come back very strong, even stronger than before. So by your account someone who runs relatively mediocre in high school then goes on to be a very good runner becomes a very good runner because his genetic talent took longer to show itself. Again, talent, by which I guess you mean ability or performance, does not naturally show itself except in the rarest of situations. It almost always takes discipline, hard work, etc. But, by the time his genetic talent showed itself the runner would have already put in years of training, training that affects his ability to perform well. How then are we to know that his sudden rise in performance after years of somewhat mediocrity are because of his talent or his training? To some degree we can't of course. But we do have some physiological parameters and over time, we will develop more. We are also developing some genetic markers, and within a decade or a little longer, it is within reason that we will have basic parameters for potentially great runners at various distances. These will not be so specific as to render obsolete the X factors -- training, nutrition, luck, etc. But it will help us understand human CAPACITY. You can test elite distance runners and you'll find that they are skinny, have a high % of slow twitch fibers, have a high Vo2max, and have this that and the other, but how are we to know that this is mostly from genetics and not from hard work and training? The only true way to test genetic potential would be to test distance runners in high school before they begin any training because any training at all will affect what talent they show. I still agree with you that you need some genetic talent, a sprinter with a high % of fast twitch fibers will not become a good distance runenr, but am not convinced that you need a lot of it to become successful and win a lot of elite races and make a decent living and standing in the elite community. I will agree with you that the best of the best need everything, including genetic talent. But, there have been many runners who have went on to perform extremely well after having relatively mediocre performances in high school and college. You can not say that the genetic talent of these runners was slow to emerge because the training they have done over the years has already affected them and improved them so how can we prove it was the emerging genetic talent or the hard work and training? Test them? But, testing would show the affects of training. I think the main thing genetic talent does is shorten the time needed to become a very good runner. Some only require a couple years to become very good, while others may wait an entire career before they reach the same level. Same level, different timespan in reaching it. Just food for thought. Interesting conversations Jon. Hey, I love discussing this stuff. I'm working on a book now on male/female differences!! Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type
On 5/25/01 2:33 PM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has nothing to do with finally seeing the light. Muscule fiber is just one of those things, like height, that you can not change. And like basic physique, ability to process energy, etc., phenotypes that are distributed differently in different populations as a result of evolution You can train the fibers to act more slow or fast twitch, but they are still what they are. So in that sense, yes runners be it long distance or sprinters are born. But, I think one would know right off where they fall in the fast/slow fiber debate and unless they love finishing last they will not persue running that is opposite what their bodies were made for. I don't think anyone would argue that someone with 90% fast twitch can become a good long distance runner. That simply can not happen. The same could be said about someone who doesn't have the slightest genetic gift when it comes to running. What I try to address is the grey area between top of the line runners (World/Olympic medalists) and the Gallowalkers who really have no hope when it comes to competitive running. What does it take to be competitive with the world elite? When you are on top (World/Olympic medalists) you need it all: genetics, training, luck, etc. But to win a few good races: Boston, Falmouth, European Track, etc I think you can get by without a serious genetic gift. It's only when you are racing THE VERY BEST that you lose out, because the very best have it all. I've seen very fast Kenyans, and I've seen very mediocre Kenyans. Not all Kenyans are born to be world record holders. There are just more good Kenyans, more great Kenyans, and more mediocre Kenyans for a number of reasons...one being genetics. That still doesn't mean a smaller group of Japanese, Americans, ect can not stand out amongst the Kenyans. Again, you are saying EXACTLY what basic science says, which is what I've been reporting. Glad you finally see the light. It just means that surrounding the 10 or 20 non-Kenyans will be 100 Kenyans. Another burst of light... It's just one of those rules of sports, like Chinese table tennis players or Romanian gymnasts. Doesn't mean one should throw in the towel either. Wow, this is amazing. Again, we are on the exact same page. One can still, with just a little genetic talent, become a very fast and very good runner and win a lot of top level races. Bizz. Wrong. No one with just a little genetic talent can win a lot of top level races. That's absolutely, provably, false. Those with just a little natural talent will win little. Genetics proscribes capacity, certainly not ability. But no matter how you slice and dice it, little still translates into little. Mark McGwire has more than a little talent. He can train till the end of time and never be a competitive distance runner. Just when it comes to the very top of the mountain (Olympics, Worlds) they will most likely be beaten by those who have it all: genetics, training, and luck. Don't remember what the point of this post was. I guess I agree with Jon to an extent. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type
Came across this summary of Saltin's work which I thought would be of interest to the list: *** Even wonder what makes a great athlete? Why did Marion Jones of the U.S.A. win the gold medal in the 100m sprint in Sydney in a time of 10.75 seconds? And how did Japan's Takahashi run the women's marathon (a distance of over 42 km - that's approximately the distance between Calgary and Airdrie!) in 2 hours, 23 minutes? Perhaps it has something to do with their physiology - their muscles. In a recent article in Scientific American, researchers have discovered the functions of different muscle fibers and their contribution to athletic performance. Skeletal muscle is composed of a bundle of cells called fibers and each fiber is composed of thousands of strands called myofibrils. It is the myofibril that causes the contraction of the muscle in response to nerve impulses from the brain. In turn, each myofibril is composed of sarcomeres that contain two proteins, myosin and actin, that cause the actual contraction. A component of the myosin molecule called the heavy chain determines the function of the muscle fiber. There are 3 different types of heavy chains or isoforms: I, IIa, and IIx. The type I isoform is referred to as a slow fiber and the IIa and IIx isoforms are called fast fibers. The slow type I fiber relies on aerobic metabolism making it important in endurance sports such as the marathon. The fast type IIa and IIx fibers rely on anaerobic metabolism and are crucial to sports like sprinting that require powerful but short bursts of energy. The researchers hypothesized that endurance athletes should have a greater proportion of slow type I fibers in their quadriceps muscles compared to sprinters. They found that this was the case. More interestingly however, it seems that through a weight training regiment, some fast IIx fibers are converted to IIa fibers. Oddly enough, no study has been able to confirm if it is possible to turn fast type II fibers into slow type I. The implications of this are that marathon runners are born great athletes and not made. The large proportion of slow type I fibers in their muscle cannot be built up like sprinters who can through training convert their slow type I fibers into fast type II fibers. Interesting Facts about Muscles: · An average active adult has approximately 50% of each fiber type (slow type I and fast type II) · Fast IIx fibers contract 10 times faster than slow type I fibers · A person with a spinal cord injury has almost no slow type I fiber in their muscles because the lack of electrical stimulation causes atrophy of this type of muscle · Disuse of a muscle can shrink its size by up to 20% in 2 weeks! · Gene therapy in the form of an injection of artificial genes into an athletes' muscle cells may be the performance enhancing drug of the future; this type of doping may be impossible to detect Source: Andersen, Jesper L., Peter Schjerling, and Bengt Saltin. 2000. Muscle, Genes and Athletic Performance. Scientific American 283: 49-55. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Nature vs. nature
deficient. *Keeping cattle and consuming milk products appears to have resulted in natural selection for lactase in adulthood. Pastoral people who have historically depended on milk in their diet are adult producers of lactase. *Some lactase deficient peoples consume milk products, but in the form of yoghurt or cheese. *3. High-altitude adaptation: In the Himalayas and Andes, people live at 12,000 ft and up. The maximum altitude for humans appears to be about 18,000 ft. (Mt. Everest is 29,000). *People who live all their lives at high altitudes have larger lungs, bigger chests, larger hearts and higher blood pressure in the lungs. They can extract more oxygen from the same volume of air than can people who live at sea level. *These traits appear to be a combination of acclimatization and genetics. However, human physiology is plastic enough for people to live at either sea level or at high altitudes. About skin color: *Variation in human thought and behavior is neither genetic nor immutable. Variation in human behavior and thought is tied to culture and culture is malleable -- subject to social, economic, and environmental forces. *Differences in human skin color are the consequence of different amounts of melanin in the skin. Melanin protects the dermis from damage by ultraviolet rays. Ultraviolet rays facilitate the production of production vitamin D, and thus the management of calcium. *In tropical latitudes, a higher level of melanin minimizes the danger of hypervitaminosis D. It also minimizes the danger of skin cancer. In northern latitudes, a lower level of melanin maximizes the production of vitamin D. Hope this clarifies some of the points of debate and makes it clear that behavior ( and athletic performance) is a bio-social phenomenon. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Tim Noake's speech
This is the link to Tim Noakes' speech before the World Congress on Medicine and Health July/August 2000. I think it will help clarify many of these important issues. http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/world_congress_MM.htm -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: FW: A final reply-but private
I thought the list might like to see some of the silly responses I get off line (thankfully, most responders aren't quite this insecure). Note that the poster offers not one iota of evidence to support his innuendos--not one. Pretty sad. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Forwarded Message From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:58:38 -0700 To: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: A final reply-but private Jon I'm not going to bother to reply to the list because you constantly shift your arguments, and we would be chasing this around forever. I think the list members now easily recognize how you constantly dodge the very strong counter arguments that have been presented against whatever you happen to be saying at the moment. This last post is a great example. I finally nail down what you have been saying and present my counterthesis. Then you turn around and AGREE with my counterthesis You have FAILED the basic process of evaluating a scientific hypothesis. You have presented your hypothesis, but you have not tested it against the null hypothesis, nor alternative hypotheses such as the one presented by me, or by others on the list. As for qualifications, I received my Ph.D. from Berkeley, the top public research university in the country, from the top department in my field, agricultural and resource economics. In that department we were drilled on both testing of hypotheses, and statistical analysis. Unfortunately, I see that you would fail both levels of coursework. Finally, I have not directly insulted you publicly on this list. Keep your trap shut. More below: -- End of Forwarded Message
Re: t-and-f: FW: A final reply-but private
Writing that something is private does not entitle them to attack me or anyone else in a disrespectful and arrogant way, as did Mr. McCann. Moreover, his attacks were not private as he sent his screeds around to numerous other people, as indicated on the email. I NEVER communicated to him privately and found his willingness to engage in such ad hominem activities a genuine abuse of the Internet and this list. It was in that spirit that I decided to pass along his jihads. I have no intention of apologizing as I was responding to someone's absusive behavior by letting other's make their judgments. It's unfortunate that a number of people on this list, apparently Mr. McCann among them, finds it acceptable to engage in personal invective when the issue turns to something they find uncomfortable to talk about -- human differences. It's my belief that such people are the root of the problem of prejudice, not a solution. If decent people don't discuss human biodiversity,² warns Walter E. Williams of George Mason University, who is African American, ³we concede the turf to black and white racists. Sports offer a non-polemical way to convey this message and de-politicize what has sometimes been a vitriolic debate. On 5/7/01 2:27 PM, Ben Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon, To be honest I don't care about this whole argument. So I have stayed out of it. I do however care about privacy on the Internet (something I know a bit about too). When someone says private and they post to you directly I think you and everyone else on the list should have the courtesy to do as they request. In fact, I think this should be added to the list rules/charter. Public statements by individuals can and should be scrutinized. Private statements with the explicit request for privacy should be kept private unless there is some significantly greater good done by making them public. Here there is no greater good in what you have done. I hope that you will be reprimanded by the current list supervisor. What you have done is typical of how people treat this medium. AND it is wrong. I respectfully request that you apologize to Mr. McCann and the list for this breech of privacy. Ben Hall -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: FW: A final reply-but private I thought the list might like to see some of the silly responses I get off line (thankfully, most responders aren't quite this insecure). Note that the poster offers not one iota of evidence to support his innuendos--not one. Pretty sad. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Forwarded Message From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:58:38 -0700 To: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: A final reply-but private Jon I'm not going to bother to reply to the list because you constantly shift your arguments, and we would be chasing this around forever. I think the list members now easily recognize how you constantly dodge the very strong counter arguments that have been presented against whatever you happen to be saying at the moment. This last post is a great example. I finally nail down what you have been saying and present my counterthesis. Then you turn around and AGREE with my counterthesis You have FAILED the basic process of evaluating a scientific hypothesis. You have presented your hypothesis, but you have not tested it against the null hypothesis, nor alternative hypotheses such as the one presented by me, or by others on the list. As for qualifications, I received my Ph.D. from Berkeley, the top public research university in the country, from the top department in my field, agricultural and resource economics. In that department we were drilled on both testing of hypotheses, and statistical analysis. Unfortunately, I see that you would fail both levels of coursework. Finally, I have not directly insulted you publicly on this list. Keep your trap shut. More below: -- End of Forwarded Message -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: New thread regarding the Entine book
, is an even MORE interesting topic than the genetics topic behind it. What's the best way to get people to open their minds and THINK in spite of political incorrectness, in order to get truth out in the open? WhereEVER the truth turns out to be... Jon's approach sometimes seems to be in-the-face confrontation...or maybe I'm confusing his discussion technique with the responses he often stimulates... ... is that the best way to get the dialogue on a 'taboo' topic out in the open? I'm not sure I know the answer. It seems to have succeeded in stimulating a lot of discussion on this list, but how well does that approach work elsewhere? RT -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Never??
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:55:56 From: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Jon Entine, can we get over this discussion? Even I am growing tired of this...:) Doesn't matter how many examples we put out it will always be responded to with the individuals VS group thing. It's not a thing Alan. Science does not make theories from individual examples. In running, you have millions of examples to make a case or not. I am responding the way intelligent people respond who believe that statements should be backed up with empirical evidence, which you do not provide but is available--and which I cite in Taboo. Also Jon, to say that one person out of a certain group of people will NEVER do something is a pretty ignorant statement. Generally, you're right, but I can assure you a Watusi will NEVER become the world's strongest man. And that's NOT a stupid statement. Sometimes, such declarations, which I rarely have used, are appropriate. Not saying that you are ignortant, just the statement is. There is always the possibility of individuals doing extraordinary things. Can you see the future Jon? I bet you probably thought that a Greek would never win the Olympic 200m? That statement shows how little you have yet grasped from this debate. If you had read Taboo, you would have recognized that such an event was hardly that extraordinary. First, the time was just okay...not among the top few hundred of all time. Second, Meditterannean countries have had a lot of gene exchange, as geneticists have long documented, making such a occurance now and then likely. It is no surprise that many of the top white runners come from southern Meditterranean countries. Individual successes are always possible. Theoretically, but not pratically. That's like saying it is possible the we will find a woman who is the world's tallest human. Sure it's possible... But your statement, for all intent and purpose, is totally meaningless in terms of the issues at hand. I will agree that in this point in time you are right. The East/North Africans as a group will dominate distance running. I would say that 80 years ago the same could have been said about the Finnish. As a group they dominated distance running. Same could also have been said 20 years ago about the GBTC. There's a huge difference. IT WAS NOT NEARLY A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD THEN. Now that Africans are ABLE to compete, the story is different. This is a totally bogus point you're making. Compare the old Finn times against today's times. I am agreeing with you Jon. Given your findings you are right. Your statistics prove you right. As a group the East/North Africans are dominate and no individual successes will prove you wrong. Anyone remember how this got started? I believe it was Jon posting some article of his? Well, Jon at least you've drummed up some interest in your book. $ I only wish Alan. I've barely covered the advance, which means I still need a day job. Alan -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Individuals vs. groups
On 5/3/01 8:01 AM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 09:46:58 +0100 From: Randall Northam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Jon Entine Two statements by Jon Entine written in different postings recently That makes 800 meters very much a distance race. I'll say it again: Athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. By any standard Johnny Gray was a great 800m runner. I submit that as a half miler he is not a distance runner but what do I know? I've been writing about athletics for only 35 years and have only the evidence of my own eyes. Jon must have some scientific explanation. No doubt it will be that Johnny Gray is an exception. So I say Mark Everett. Randall: the 800 meters is NOT a long distance race although it is a distance race. Please read the above quotations you reproduced. And for the thousandth time: individual variation tells you very little about group patterns. A 7 foot tall women does not prove that women are taller than men. Get it yet?? Randall Northam. Ps. He also said: BOTH THE Nigerians and Cameroonians won the world cup. 20 percent of the British Premiership are blacks of West African ancestry. Not one is from East Africa. The black population of the UK is less than 2 percent. I commented on the fact that neither Nigeria or Cameroon (surely they are Cameroons not Cameroonians) had won the world cup and was so excited I forgot to mention the second paragraph. So here goes. Most British blacks trace their ancestry to the Carribean (I don't have the figures and I can't be bothered to find them) so it's only natural that most British black footballers are of west African descent. Isn't it? You will be pleased to know that this is my last post on the subject of Jon Entine. To my great and unalloyed pleasure I've realised that my e-mail programme can send into oblivion posts containing certain names. Guess which were the first two I have told it to zap? That's circuitous reasoning Randall. Kenya and Tanzania are part of the original Commonwealth too but produce NO footballers of note, despite far larger populations and a hunger for soccer that is at least the equal of the Caribbean nations. The reason that the Caribbean supplies the bulk of the top athletes (along with Nigeria, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Ghana and others, who also send athletes to other European countries, while East Africans send virtually zero) has mostly to do with body type. PLEASE: Read a physical anthropology textbook on body type differences. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Healthy skepticism
I don't know what want needs to show healthy skepticism. My ONLY absolute statement is that patterned population biology plays a role in sports success and that cultural exaggerates those small but (at the elite level) critical differences. That's it. That's the essence of moderation. Do I suggest that genetics determines success? No. Do I say that training, nutrition, opportunity, etc. are not ESSENTIAL to success? No. What do I say: that those who assert, without healthy skepticism, that population genetics does not offer a key piece of the puzzle explaining why there are such clear (and increasing) population distribution disparities are extremist. Moreover, all I'm pointing out is that the anthropological evidence parallels statistical evidence to suggest that sports success is bio-cultural, with race (or population) playing a key role in some sports -- running most particularly. You citation of Holland vs. Nigeria is classic post hoc anecdotes. You never address a key issue: why don't more Dutch athletes pursue sprinting. The answer is pretty clear: because they are not stupid...they see very well that they cannot compete at the ultra-elite level and therefore peel off to play games in which they are more suited. It's one of the reasons why Nigerians, for all your talk about their love of running, do not go into long distance running -- they simply cannot compete. Enlarge your universe to include the entire white and Asian world, and all of North and East Africa, roughly 95 percent of the world's population. There are more elite world class sprinters in any ONE of these countries--pick one: Ghana, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Cameroon -- then there are in 95 percent of the world's population. As for what Bengt Saltin concludes, he does not conclude that it is very hard, if not impossible, to come to a definite conclusion. He does say it is very hard, but he certainly comes to one. This is what he said in a documentary that appeared on BBC 2 by the British production company Black Britain that aired in September, entitled ³The Faster Race.² Saltin: ³It¹s a strong genetic component what type of muscle fiber you have, either slow or face² said professor Saltin. ³And West Africans have already 70 or 75 percent of the fast type when they are born. And that¹s needed for a 100 meter race around 9.9 seconds.² People of West African ancestry have measurably higher percentages of fast twitch muscles, lower body fat, more efficient metabolisms, and body structures that makes for a very efficient bio-mechanical speedster. That¹s why these athletes hold 97 percent of top sprint times including 494 of the top 500 100-meter times. Many of these characteristics are significant handicaps at endurance activities, such as swimming and distance running. What about distance running? Elite Kenyan runners, the world¹s best, have ectomorphic bodies, smaller natural lung capacity, more slow twitch muscle fibers, among genetically-linked traits. That makes for a slow sprinter indeed, the fastest Kenyan 100 meter time, 10.28, is a half second slower than the best times of West African descended athletes, and slower than elite whites or Asians but great distance runners. Saltin: ³The Kenyans are born with a fair number, a high number of slow twitch fibers. They have 70 to 75 percent of their muscle fibers being slow... Very many in sports physiology would like to believe that it is training, the environment, what you eat that plays the most important role. But we argue based on the data that it is in your genes¹ whether or not you are talented or whether you will become talented. The basis is in the genes of these runners. There is no question about that. The extent of the environment can always be discussed but it¹s less than 20, 25 percent. It¹s definitely a dominant factor how they are born. I don¹t see this as a racist issue.² On 5/3/01 10:34 AM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do not disagree with Jon Entine outright on any issue as such. Nor am I ignorant about statistics. I remain open-minded about population genetics and performance. In fact I started out as a believer. But it is relatively simple to check a few facts, as in the example I gave above, and in the case of athletics the only conclusion one can come to is that it is very hard, if not impossible, to come to a definite conclusion. This was, in fact, the consensus arived at in Scientific American's Muscle and Sport special issue in 2000. I have seen no sign of such healthy skepticism in Mr Entine's letters to this group. None whatsoever. Again, I'm sorry to see you leave. Hope you change your mind. Cheers, Elliott. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...well I guess not
On 5/3/01 11:58 AM, Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 09:01 PM 5/2/2001 -0700, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:02:17 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try to grasp the difference between INDIVIDUALS and GROUPS. There may be an ideal body type based on the AVERAGE of INDIVIDUALS, but it is not eliminate the possibility of wide variation. So if you grasp the difference between individuals and groups, why is it that you insist on making broad generalizations about groups with NO exceptions for individuals? You never once mention the dispersion of individual traits and the impact on relative levels of ability. I've actually mentioned in numerous times. Best as I can tell from your posts (and since this discussion in on this list, I insist sticking to statements made here, not in your book), here is what you have been saying: The genetic traits of various groups differ widely around the world, leading to dramatic relative differences in abilities between the groups. That's only partly accurate. The differences are actually small, and they are not group differences but differences at the elite level. The differences among these groups (e.g. East Africans in distances, West Africans in sprints) are so large as that individual variations WITHIN any one group is not sufficient to close the gap in ability differences among those groups. Here's my basic thesis: The mean ability levels of various groups around the world are approximately the same in genetic makeup. This statement is not accurate or even coherent. Mean ability levels are neither the same nor different in genetic makeup ..it's a non sequitur as you wrote it. If you meant that the mean ability levels of different populations are the same, that too is not accurate. If you mean that the mean genetic makeup of different populations around the world is the same, that too is not accurate. However, the variations in ability levels as determined genetically within a particular group differ significantly from group to group, i.e., the standard deviation differs (and perhaps skewness as well). This may or may not be true, but it is speculation. The distribution curve of abilities may be shifted to one side or another, or longer at the ends, or fatter at the ends, or a combination of all three. Scientists are quite certain that INDIVIDUAL differences, as represented by the ends of the normal distribution curve, are quite different for some phenotypes from one population to another (and the makeup of the population itself can change based on the phenotype..a population can be geographic -- Rift Valley East Africans -- or otherwise socially constructed -- people who are lactose intolerant). This difference in variation leads to some groups have more individuals of outstanding abilities in certain endeavors (e.g. East Africans in distances, West Africans in sprints). Again, a non sequitur. If you are saying that the greater genetic variation leads to greater phenotypic variation and that results in more individuals of outstanding abilities in certain endeavors, you are absolutely wrong on a number of counts. Genetic variation does not relate with even mild correlation to greater phenotypic varation. If you are saying that greater phenotypic variation is correlated with more individuals of outstanding abilities in certain endeavors, that may or may not be true depending on what endeavor you are focusing on. In your examples cited, East Africans in distance and West Africans in sprints, there is NO evidence to suggest that their success in sharply different endeavors has anything at all to do with variation (of what ever kind you are suggesting), let alone their performance in certain sports. If anything, the truth is probably the opposite of what you state. The less phenotypic variation, the more likely one population is likely to find success at a particular body-type/physiologically linked sport because their distribution at that phenotype would be fatter and (perhaps) longer. In addition, certain other factors--cultural, economic, nutritional, etc.--influence the preponderance of individuals who become successful in those endeavors. That's a truism that adds nothing to the debate. My thesis is not so different from yours, but uses a more sophisticated application of statistical theory and allows for a wider variety of explanatory factors. Thank you for such a sophisticated analysis. Grade: D. Now retake logic and statistics 101. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. The lack of scientific sophistication on this point is unbelievable. Here is a fact: athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. There might be some abberations, generally because of racial mixing and the roulette wheel of genetics, such as Johnny Gray. There you go again, making ABSOLUTE generalized
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3595
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 11:04:33 -0700 From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Follow the money? I've stated earlier that I think that genetics probably has an influence that creates a greater propensity for African success, but it is NOT due to a difference in the AVERAGE makeup in the population. It is due to a wider DISPERSION of genetic characteristics in the African population which means that there is a greater probability of an individual having outlier characteristics necessary for elite performances. Recent studies comparing genetic material from around the world confirms that Africans show much greater variety than the rest of the world combined. Richard, what you write here is just not accurate and your thesis has no scientific validity. There is no such concept as genetic characteristics. There are phenotypic characteristics, which may or may not have a genetic component. Africans in general have the longest genetic history (the Continent appears to be the home of modern humanity), which is the result of more time to accumulate genetic mutations. However, genetic diversity DOES NOT TRANSLATE INTO PHENOTYPIC DIVERSITY. If it did, then we would find some great gorilla marathoners, since simians are a lot more genetically diverse than modern man. Having more genetic diversity means ONE thing -- it's a marker of time of evolution. As it stands, Africans are not more diverse from a phenotypic perspective than other populations and in some key ways they are LESS diverse. That is because, curiously, pockets of African populations are quite insular. In fact, West Africa was historically one of the most insular populations, eventually cut off from the north by the Sahara desert which formed a few thousand years BC (after being a relatively fertile savannah), the mountains of the East and the ocean to the West. West Africa is the most distinct and homogeneous mega-populations on earth as every geneticist will tell you. Just check for instance the charts on genetic diversity in Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Genes. But this is genetics 101. So in fact, the truth is just the opposite: the distinctive body type and physiology of the largest African population is a result of its insularity and homogeneity, not its dispersion. This is also discussed, with bibliographic footnotes, in Taboo. Nevertheless, you have to MOTIVATE those individuals to compete. Given the relative income differences, African athletes have a much greater motivation to compete in track and field than Americans who have not only athletic endeavors but run of the mill jobs that earn more with greater stability of income. Richard McCann -- -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Athletes are not pigeons. Kenyans in particular have shown an amazing virtuosity across a range of endurance distances. n 5/3/01 7:47 AM, Bruce Glikin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is quite a large gap between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. -- Jon Entine Which profile would you pigeonhole Alberto Juantorena? Question mark. Or exclamation point? -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3597
On 5/2/01 5:04 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:51:51 -0700 From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...well I guess not From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...I promise..:) Alan: You could say all you want that the 800 meters is not a distance event, but this is a matter of climes, not boxes. Physiological studies show that one needs to draw on your aerobic energy reserves after about 45 seconds or so. That makes 800 meters very much a distance race. The anatomical and physiological profile of every event is slightly different. Check out JMTanner's studies on this, or more recent ones by Robert Malina, Claude Bouchard, Lindsay Carter, and many others. There is quite a large gap between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. And the 1500 and 800 profiles are very different as well. Coe and Juantorena represent two examples of completely different profiles that were essentially equally successful at 800 (and not that NEITHER is Kenyan). Essentially, the 800 stands at the fuzzy border between distances and sprints, with more and more sprint types moving into the event over time. Richard: Try to grasp the difference between INDIVIDUALS and GROUPS. There may be an ideal body type based on the AVERAGE of INDIVIDUALS, but it is not eliminate the possibility of wide variation. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. The lack of scientific sophistication on this point is unbelievable. Here is a fact: athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. There might be some abberations, generally because of racial mixing and the roulette wheel of genetics, such as Johnny Gray. There you go again, making ABSOLUTE generalized statements that you cannot support. What about Brazilian Roba DaSilva? Last I noticed, Roba DaSilva was not an African American or of West African ancestry. He is a mix of three different genetic ancestries, European, Asian and West African. In fact, I discussed this in an article I wrote for a Brazilian magazine that's on my web site. I'll say it again: Athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. You may not like such statements -- and sure, there is a chance that natural human diversity will prove the absolute statement wrong...but as a GENERALIZATION, it is absolutely accurate...just as saying that it is absolutely certain that a Watusi will not be crowned world's strongest man or an Eskimo NBA MVP. IT WON'T HAPPEN, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES. I don't say this: this is anthropology/genetics 101. And if you are counting the 800 as a distance event, Gray is far from an aberration--he is in fact the norm! I have dealt with this before, but here goes: the 800 is on the cusp between sprints and distance events. IT is certainly not a long distance event. I think you need to take a look at the US 800 all time list, or just the start of the Olympic Trials 800 this year. WHO CARES ABOUT THE US--LOOK AT THE INTERNATIONAL RESULTS. Even at the 800, ONLY 11 percent of the top times are held by runners of West African ancestry (and almost all by one man, Johnny Gray). 57 percent are held by Kenyans or other East/North Africans and 22 percent by whites. We live in a WORLD. I know you might believe that the US is the center of all things good, but try to take a broader view here. Beyond the 800 meters, THERE ARE NO BLACKS OF OVERWHELMINGLY WEST AFRICAN ANCESTRY WHO HAVE TIMES RANKED AMONG THE ELITE. NONE. ZERO. It makes me wonder if you have ever been to a track meet! Richard, that's your mirror talking. African-Americans, whom I assume are of West African origin, hold an almost dominant position in the event. And few blacks competed in this event until James Robinson started in the mid-1970s. We're seeing more of them in the 1500 as well now, with Holman and Lassiter as good, but not sole, examples. There may be proportionately FEWER great distance runners of West African descent, but that is far from NONE, which is what you're saying. Richard McCann -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Population differences in Europe
-low 2:40ies (which would probably still win most of them), rather than train for a single sub-2:30 one. I do believe, that even leaving the cultural differences between US and Kenya aside (Ninetendos, McDonalds, School Buses etc.), if running was as big as NBA or NFL in terms of yearly earnings, contracts, etc. offered to top US runners, US would dominate distance running like they do basketball. Oleg yet another 'flat-earth creationist'? - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Derderian Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Alan: Here's a suggestion Alan. Read Bengt Saltin's cover story in last September's Scientific American, Muscles and Genes. It's a good primer on how different muscle fibers work. If you want to read more scientific articles, Taboo has a great bibliography with most of the key research on such things. On 5/1/01 2:06 PM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Physiological studies show that one needs to draw on your aerobic energy reserves after about 45 seconds or so. So you need your Anaerobic energy for about 1:00 right? I would think that in just about any race you would need to draw on your aerobic reserves at some point in time. I would think that those with a high concentration of slow-twitch fibers (Kenyans, as you said before) would have a hard time in the 800m. So, as I said before even some Kenyans have a high concentration of fast-twitch fibers. Alan __ -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Alan: You could say all you want that the 800 meters is not a distance event, but this is a matter of climes, not boxes. Physiological studies show that one needs to draw on your aerobic energy reserves after about 45 seconds or so. That makes 800 meters very much a distance race. The anatomical and physiological profile of every event is slightly different. Check out JMTanner's studies on this, or more recent ones by Robert Malina, Claude Bouchard, Lindsay Carter, and many others. There is quite a large gap between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. There have been some tests of muscle fiber type comparing different populations. East Africans and North Africans from the interior mountains, who are a genetica mix of African, Berber, and Arab genes, commonly share about 60 percent of their genes with West Africans, according to sudies by Cavalli-Sforza in The History and Geography of Genes. Many scientists, such as Noakes and Saltin, believe that this genetic cohort combines the anatomical/physiological characteristics of West Africans with great endurance capabilities, making them somewhat faster than many other endurance runners. Here is a fact: athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. There might be some abberations, generally because of racial mixing and the roulette wheel of genetics, such as Johnny Gray. You might have a Joquim Cruz who is most likely an interesting mix of southern African genes, Asian (Amerindian) genes, and European ancestry, but that's it. For all your huffing and puffing, MJ COULD NEVER DEVELOP THE ANEROBIC BASE TO EVEN BE A VERY MEDIOCRE DISTANCE RUNNER. For the same reason, you will not find many athletes of West African ancestry as a great distance swimmer. Genes proscribe possibilities. Individuals win races. But nothing can turn clay into marble. Get used to it. If MJ developed any sort of aerobic base at all he would demolish the AR and give Joe-Kenyan a run for his money. On 5/1/01 12:19 PM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...than 60 percent of all top distance races, from the 800 meters to the marathon. The 800m is not a distance race...repeat, the 800m is not a distance race. Most if not all 800m runners can be/are great 400m runners. In the 800m you see African Americans excel: Johnny Gray, South Americans excel: Joaquim Cruz, and Kenyans excel: Wilson Kipketer. You say East/North Africans have a lot of slow twitch fibers right? Then why are they so well in the 800m, a race that requires a lot of speed and fast twitch fibers. Could it be 'gasp' that the Kenyans vary just as much as everyone else? I believe our best 800m runners are running the 400m right now, but have no desire to run 800s because they would tarnish their appeal. If MJ developed any sort of aerobic base at all he would demolish the AR and give Joe-Kenyan a run for his money. Alan -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Soccer??
Do you really follow soccer Oleg? Almost all of the great West African soccer players have fled their countries to play for the great European teams. Twenty percent of the British premiership is of West African ancestry. Get a grip and study up. On 5/1/01 5:42 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:01:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Oleg Shpyrko [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism I personally try to continue to follow soccer, which I admit is not easy living in the US, but I honestly couldn't name a single west african soccer player. Can you? From FIFA world ranking - top african countries: 22. South Africa 30. Morocco 32. Tunisia 34. Egypt Not a single west-african country ranked in top 35, unless you count North-african Morocco as west-african, which of course conveniently becomes east-african for purposes of running-related discussions. If Moroccans, South Africans, Portugese, Spaniards and Mexicans can succede in both soccer and distance running, how can we still argue that Kenyans cannot be competitive in soccer because of their body types? What great Western African soccer teams are we talking about? Cameroon and Nigeria had a few good moments, but on the world scale...? Oleg. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism
Alan: Individual Kenyans get the appearance fees because they have proven in prior races that they are likely to do very well. Americans do not get them because they are not nearly as competitive. Race directors would love nothing more than to promote American runners -- just a few years ago, there was a move afoot to ban Kenyan runners because it was supposedly hurting sponsorships, etc. You make it sound like race directors are anti-American, when the reality is much the opposite. On 5/1/01 5:42 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:20:00 From: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money was- Flat earth Creationism H...I never thought of that. That's a very interesting point. The big marathons pay big appearance fees to a fleet of Joe-Kenyans so a fleet of Joe-Kenyans sweep the medal stand. Meanwhile an equally talented Joe-American gets no appearance fee and fights just for a free entry into the race. So, The Man pays big bucks to get Kenyans into his race, any Kenyans as long as they are skinny and dark, because we have been led to believe that Kenyans produce very fast races and that when groups of Kenyans race a record is bound to fall. So, The Man gets these greyhounds to run so that his race may be the race that a record is set. Now, flocks of GallowJoggers see The Man's race as a chance to run in the same race as a world record holder or in the same race as a world record is set. All this means more money for The Man. Interesting. So, in the late 80s when the Americans started the less is more brigade the race directors see a fall in performance of home grown stars and rise in performance of little African fellows. Would more people run Chicago if they knew there was a good chance of a record being set? How much of a draw is it to run in a race in which someone sets a record? Seems to me like the fastest marathons are also the ones with the most amount of runners. Alan -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
I must know something about running, having run five marathons. Maybe not as much as Malmo the magnificent. If you knew a little bit about the physiology of running, you would know that saying that 800 meters is not a distance event is silly. Kipketer made two points: he debunked the running myth. Having been to Eldoret and visiting the schools around there, I can say for certain that NO ONE RUNS 10m TO SCHOOL/CHURCH. Yes, kids walk (or run if they choose) to school, but none more than a few km. That's what I walked/ran to school as a kid. It happens that the schools are all along one main road between Eldoret and Kapsabet, which are not even 10 miles apart -- which means that all the kids are on the road together at the same time, making it seem as if the whole world is there. You agent expert is not such an expert. If you would like an autographed copy of my book, send a check to the address below. Regards, -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Flat earth Creationism
a scientist, would dispute. You haven't convince me, obviously. Your arguments are too selective and countered by many others' observations. Sigh...I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything other than than this is an intriguing issue and has implications far beyond the world of sports (it's the essence of what the Human Genome Project is about -- finding the genetic influence on phenotypes). The only thing I can say with certainty is that facile explanations that training or diet or running to school are enough to explain Kenyan domination of endurance running -- from 800 meters to the marathon -- are just that -- facile. The bio-cultural reality is more complex. That is what I discuss in Taboo -- it's not a treatise trying to prove anything, it's an attempt to understand the social and historical debate that is being played out, frequently in comic fashion, on this list. If I haven't convinced you of that reality, then so be it. If you really believe that if Americans just walked more to school, ate the right trail mix, trained in Aspen, and drank cow's milk, that they would be champion runners, then god bless youyou have the makings of a flat-earth Creationist!! Richard McCann -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
ARGH!! Re: t-and-f: Flat earth Creationism
Alan: Fact is Allan, it seems you are trying to deliberately distort what I write. AGAIN, if you find a tall woman, it does not prove that women are taller than men. Sure you can find many individual examples. If tomorrow, some great white hope went out and ran a 2:05 marathon it would no more prove that whites in general are the equal of East/North Africans than a win by the Chicago Bulls over the LA Lakers proved that the Bulls were a better team. However, if the Bulls consisently had beaten the Lakers, then you could conclude that. That's why we have baseball seasons and race seasons. Individual examples are just that--records of individuals. Poulation genetics does not predict invididual achievements. It helps to explain trends are possibilities and likelihoods. Nothing more. Again, If you REALLY believe that if Americans just walked more to school, ate the right trail mix, trained in Aspen, and drank cow's milk, that they would surpass (in gross numbers and in per capita) populations that are a tiny fraction of their size as champion runners, then god bless youyou have the makings of a flat-earth Creationist!! You really believe that evolution has NOT had an impact on body type and anatomy and physiology of populations and that's a key factor in why certain populations tend to do better at certain running distances?? On 4/30/01 2:36 PM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you really believe that if Americans just walked more to school, ate the right trail mix, trained in Aspen, and drank cow's milk, that they would be champion runners, then god bless youyou have the makings of a flat-earth Creationist!! Only need one example to prove that it is possible. Bill Rodgers 1979 Boston 2:09:26. Lee Bong-Ju 2001 Boston 2:09:43. Frank Shorter 1972 Olympics 2:12:19 JOSIAH THUGWANE 2000 Olympics 2.12:36. To say that it is improbable is likely, to say that it is impossible is ignorant. Fact is Mr. Entine, there were Europeans and Americans 20-30 years ago who would still be very competitive in today's running world. Mark Nenow's 10k time would still put him in the top 10 each year. Alan -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
Richard: I've read most of what you site and what I wrote in no way contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices. I have also discussed this with many Kenyan runners, from Kip Keino to Ibrahim Hussein to Wilson Kipketer. They all laugh at the gross generalization that Kenyans are great runners because they ran to school as children, run longer mileage in training, and train at higher intensity. ³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson Kipketer, world 800-meter record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter explanations. ³I walked, nice and slow.² Some kids ran to school, some didn¹t, he says, but it¹s not why we succeed. And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are others, like Kipketer, who gets along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the Great Rift Valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among runners in Europe and North America who have failed so miserably in bottling the Kenyan running miracle. As for empirical evidence, much has been collected by Bengt Saltin and Tim Noakes who consider such myth making (Kenyans train harder as the total explanation for their success) as pretty silly. Could Kenyan training methods be a factor in the success of some of their great athletes? Of course. Is there one clear pattern of training that almost all Kenyans ascribe to? Of course not? Even if there was, would that explain the magnitude of Kenyan success, considering that many of their training principles have been adopted, and even magnified, by athletes from other countries? Of course not!! So...I believe we'll have to just end this with the reality -- the modest claim-- the facile explanations that training is the key to Kenyan success is far too simplistic (and erroneous in key ways) to explain the phenemenon. It's obviously bio-cultural, an assertion which no reasonable observer, let alone a scientist, would dispute. On 4/29/01 12:59 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:18:03 -0700 From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Empirical evidence Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:38:37 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Empirical evidence With all due respect, what you have supplied is anecdotes, not evidence. Sure, you can find examples all over the map. If I find one example of a low intensity, low mileage champion runner, I can't generalize that that applies to all Kenyans, any more than I could take the results of one race and say that indicates a trend. The empirical evidence would result from a much larger database of examples. I don't say for certain that Kenyans train less than Americans. What I do say without any doubt is that glib statements that Kenyan success can be explained by the fact that they train more is not only pure speculation, it is not supported by the evidence. My argument is against environmental determinism, not for genetic determinism. Of course training plays a role--more in some cases, less in others. Jon Are you saying that you're observation, which contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices (e.g., Train Hard Run Easy, Running Research News, magazine articles, interviews with Americans and Europeans who train with the Kenyans, etc.), is the only valid viewpoint? You have failed your own standard because you have not offered substantial evidence either. I think you before you can make such a broad contradictory statement that you need to do an indepth empirical study that takes the training regimens for the top athletes from selected nations and statistically compare the training levels. I know that you'll have some difficulty in getting accurate training records from the Kenyans because many do not keep training logs, and even then, the recorded distances and times may be inaccurate for technological reasons. Given the apparent lack of evidence we have to go with the majority opinion of those who have independently observed these patterns--Kenyans tend to train harder than other athletes around the world, and this likely explains much of their current advantage. As for the Falmouth times, Buck's analysis is insightful. In addition, you only mentioned 1982. The other years shown also had 5-7 finishers under 32:50, indicating the fields in each year were of relatively consistent quality. I agree that group training can have a significant effect. My own running career would go up when I could train with others, and down when I was on my own. I had 4 years of training on my own out of a 12 year truly competitive career, and those years were always worse than the previous year in terms of competitive results, and I had better succeeding years after 3
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
the Kenyan children into lazy American children through McDonalds, TV, and the computer and everything will be level again. Now you're speculating again. As you said above, however, There will always be a strong depth of African talent simply because they have the right raw materials to start out with. If that's true, then even after the soporific effect of western culture, African talent might still provide an edge! Alan MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments
The results are interesting... 9 athletes broke 32:50 in the '97 race, all from North or East Africa. 5 broke 32:50 in the 82 race, 4 non-Africans. I believe that shows a statistically signficant advantage by East and North Africans. The disparity is probably far more evident in other years, since you picked one year with great running conditions (82). On 4/25/01 8:22 AM, Oleg Shpyrko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some statistics from Falmouth Road Race. Seems like the times are about the same, all the way from 1st to 10th, you just have to replace americans from 1970ies/80ies with kenyans and moroccans in 1990ies and you will have pretty much the same picture. I am sure Tom can provide similar lists for Boston Marathon. What I am interested in, is how come a little tribe called GBTC could produce so many top marathoners in the late 70ies, early 80ies? Something for anthropologists to look into... MEN 1997 Falmouth 1. Khalid Khannouchi, Morocco 31:58 2. Thomas Osano, Kenya 32:07 3. Peter Githuka, Kenya 32:22 4. Lazarus Nyakeraka, Kenya 32:28 5. James Bungei, Kenya 32:31 6. Simon Chemoiywo, Kenya 32:36 7. Hezron Otwori, Kenya 32:36 8. Joseph Kariuki, Kenya 32:39 9. Brahim Lahlafi, Morocco 32:40 10. John Kariuki, Kenya 33:05 MEN 1982 Falmouth 1. Alberto Salazar Oregon 31:53 CR 2. Craig Virgin Illinois 32:12 3. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:16 4. Mike Musyoki Kenya 32:17 5. Marc Curp Missouri 32:46 6. Dan Schlesinger No. Carolina 32:53 7. Sosthenes Bitok Kenya 33:06 8. George Malley Newton, MA 33:10 9. Bob Hodge GBTC 33:12 10. Gary Fanelli Penn. 33:13 MEN Falmouth 1979 1. Craig Virgin West Lebanon, IL 32:19 2. Herb Lindsay Michigan 32:27 3. Bill Rodgers GBTC 32:29 4. Jon Sinclair Colorado 32:36 5. Frank Shorter Colorado 32:42 6. Rick Rojas Colorado 32:44 7. John Flora Northeastern TC 32:45 8. Mike Roche New Jersey 32:51 9. Robbie Perkins unat. 33:03 10. Benji Durden Georgia 33:21 MEN Falmouth 1980 1. Rod Dixon New Zealand 32:20 2. Herb Lindsey Boulder, CO 32:32 3. Ric Rojas Boulder, CO 32:34 4. Bob Hodge GBTC 32:38 5. Greg Meyer GBTC 32:49 6. Terry Baker Wash. DC 32:58 7. Randy Thomas GBTC 33:03 8. Kyle Heffner Boulder, CO 33:07 9. Benji Durden Georgia 33:09 10. Stan Vernon Oklahoma 33:19 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Tom Derderian's comments Tom: I don't have the stats, but I wonder what happens when you slice the data a little differently. Set the cut off at 2:12 or near there. I would suspect that you would find that the total number of marathoners who better that mark has increased slightly and most are from the few regions of the world with a high altitude ancestry or gene flow with Africa. Considering how few runners there are in total from these athletic hotspots, it is extraordinary how they are crowded into the very top finishing places. So that would suggest that genes plays a role at the very super elite level. My guess would be that the number of sub super-elite marathoners who are not from those regions and run -- say 2:15-2:25 -- has dropped significantly for cultural reason: They know that their chances of cracking into the super elite is a long shot. Certainly, there is enough human variation for it to happen and serendipity, as well as training, plays a huge role (far more than in the sprints, for instance). The chances of an African American making it into the NBA is about 1 in 3500 or so. The chances of a white is about 1 in 95,000. As one would expect, very talented whites who might, if life broke their way, make it into the NBA peel away long before they have a chance to test whether they have the physical and mental attributes to make it. I would expect that the same thing is happening in distance running... Some potentially super elite whites are deciding to say, become a biker, because they look around them and all the stars are from Kenya, Ethiopia, ettc. If people were a little more educated about body type profiles and physiology, I believe far fewer talented athletes would peel away from sports or events in which they are emminently suited for. In summary, to conclude that difference at the very very top are cultural may not be supported by the weight of the evidence. Do you have any figures comparing sub 2:12, or even sub 2:10. Has that number decreased? On 4/24/01 2:47 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Derderian wrote: Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
Except he's wrong. On 4/25/01 8:02 AM, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon Entine said: Salazar and Kennedy frankly DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. They are just engaging in a little self-loathing for not being able to keep up with those who, frankly, are built to run as good as or better than all but a few people in the world. Bob Kennedy is in a very good position to know EXACTLY what he is talking about when it comes to Kenyan training habits. He has spent extended periods training with them in Kenya. And he trains with some of the top Kenyans (his teammates on the Kim McDonald stable of athletes) regularly in Europe. You can read more about it at: http://www.duathlon.com/articles/215 Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3585
Andy: Why do sports scientists exist? Why do we study peak performance? Why do we care about maximum oxygen uptake? Why is nutrition imortant to understand? I just don't get it? Does studying those things mean we should admire their accomplishments less? I¹ve been asked many times how an academic can waste time studying the differences between black and white people,² comments Kathy Myburgh, an exercise physiologist who has turned up measurable differences between black and white long-distance runners. ³I said, Well, if you¹re a scientist and you¹re studying obesity, who do you compare obese people with? You compare them with thin people. But if you are a physiologist and you want to compare your best runners with those not quite as good, you compare the black ones with the white ones, because the blacks clearly are performing better.¹ On 4/25/01 8:23 AM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:41:07 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc. - --part1_39.13f75049.2817bd73_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon and anyone else still interested, Why is this of importance or even interest? How do your studies increase our enjoyment of the sport? Why should we care what the genetic predisposition of Kenyans, East Africans or any other group is? I just don't get it. Do your theories mean we should admire their accomplishments less? After all, they're only doing and succeeding at what they were born to do. Should we pity or despise all others that would be so foolish as to try and compete with them? Every few months you hurrang the list with your rants, accuse nearly every one of not understanding and/or not reading your book and launch a barrage of rebuttals once again covering the same ground. To what end, just explain how this makes track a better sport. Explain to me how I will appreciate the marvelous performances I see and hear about each season even more by buying into your thesis. As long as in the end we are still talking about human beings, homo sapiens, doing all this great running why should I care about the genetics! I have never understood the passion with which you preach this gospel and after the latest round I still don't. Andy F -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: ...Kenyan Marathon Dominance, etc.
I'm simply saying that if he believes that the total explanation for Kenyan success is that they train harder, he is wrong. I've been there as well. I have first hand experience in a number of visits as well. I've also interviewed dozens of Kenyan athletes, track officials, coaches and sports scientists who have studied the situation. They say there is no evidence that Kenyans train harder than non-Kenyans. In fact, many coaches feel the opposite: that Kenyans train LESS than Europeans and whites, which is a key factor in their freshness. Glib statements such as that by Kennedy that Kenyans perform better because they train harder is not supported by the empirical evidence. Kennedy is welcome to whatever opinion he has, but that doesn't make it reflective of the facts. Bengt Saltin, head of the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, andauthor of the September 2000 Scientific American article on Muscles and Genes has weighed in on this issue as well. He has studied Kenyan athletes for over a decade. Kennedy's explanation is just too facile. If all it takes is mileage or intensity to become the world's best marathoners, there are many North Americans and Europeans who would be on top of their world. They're not. On 4/25/01 4:43 PM, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Talking about Bob Kennedy, Jon Entine wrote: Except he's wrong. Kennedy was THERE. His knowledge of Kenyan training is based on his own first-hand experiences. Are you asserting that he is wrong about levels of training that he witnessed himself? Wrong about training he participated in himself? If you are going to assert that you possess better knowledge about what Bob Kennedy saw and did than he does himself, you are going to need a better argument than simply the equivalent of Au` contraire!. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Obviously Alan didn't read my article or my book, for he misrepresents both. I wrote about the athletic hotspots that churn out great marathoners. For those unfamiliar with genetics, the highland regions of North Africa and the Rift Valley of East Africa share an evolutionary history. This is not about which country does better in marathoning. Kenyans who trace their history from the lowland regions are no more likely to dominate in marathoning than coastal North Africans or whites. On the other hand, certain sub-populations WILL dominate all out of proportion to their overall numbers--East and North Africans from highland regions, some southern Mediterranean runners in which there has been a good deal of gene flow with African (Portugal, Spain) and East Asians, who are not particularly fast or great jumpers on average but turn out great marathoners and ultra-marathoners (The Tarahumara in Mexico and Ecuadorians, for example, are of East Asian ancestry). As for London: MEN: East/North Africans took 4 of 5 and athletic hotspot athletes took all five; WHITES: ZERO WOMEN: East Africans took 3 of five. As for Rotterdam: MEN: A Kenyan won in 2:06:50, Kenyans took 4 of 5 and a North African immigrant took fourth WOMEN: Kenyan won Oh yes, Alan, the rest of the world is catching up, particularly those Brits and Americans who try to emulate the Kenyans. The fact is that a tiny percentage of the world's population wins almost all the major marathons and dominates the sport. More than 78 percent of recent top marathons are won by hotspot athletes. Yes, that's catching up. Next weekend I'll have a major article coming out on Why an American, Brit or Aussie (Black or White) May Never Win another major marathon It's based on the article below: Cheers, -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com *** Why a Brit, Aussie or an American (Black or White) May Never Win Another Major Marathon By Jon Entine What has befallen the great British and American marathon traditions? The most notable British entry at this year¹s London Marathon is recently knighted Sir Stephen Redgrave, five time Olympic rowing gold medallist, who will also be the official starter. But suck gimmickry cannot conceal the reality that top countrymen such as Jon Brown and Mark Steinle are long shots at best in a field studded with marathoners from East and North Africa, southern Europe, and East Asia. Notably absent among the elite: Northern American and European whites and blacks. The Boston Marathon results were not better. Rod De Haven finished sixth, the best showing in years. But the real story was the relative flop of American Josh Cox, who made a name for himself with grueling 180 mile training weeks in an attempt to improve match Kenyan dominance, finished almost seven minutes behind the winner. So much for former Boston winner Bill Rodger¹s oft-stated belief that Americans can match the Kenyans and other high-altitude athletes with hard work. What¹s going on. Have Brits, and most of Europe and America, gone soft, victims of affluence and regularly bested by hard nosed athletes from emerging countries? It¹s a fascinating and little explored question. Here¹s the startling headline: Don¹t expect marathoners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, to ever again reclaim the mantle as world¹s best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. Running is the world¹s most competitive sport, requiring relatively little coaching and equipment. To understand the amazing transformation in world sport, it¹s helpful to focus on what¹s going on in Kenya. In that small East African country, coaches comb the countryside for the rising generation of stars, who are showered with special training and government perks. Adoring sports fans crowd the National Stadium in Nairobi to celebrate what amounts to their national religion. After more than 60 victories by Kenyans in world-class marathon over the past two years more than from all of the rest of the world combined even casual fans are familiar with this success story. According to conventional wisdom, Kenyans, Ethiopians and other East Africans dominate because they ran to school as children, train torturously at high altitude, and are desperate to escape poverty. It¹s in their culture. This year in London, Tegla Laroupe tries to improve on last year¹s world record run while East Africans Eric Wainaina, Derartu Tulu, Japhet Kosgei and Paul Tergat pace the men¹s field. There's only one problem: The national sport, hero worship, and social channeling speak to Kenya's enduring obsession with not running but soccer. Unfortunately, Kenyans (and other East Africans) are regularly trounced in the Africa Games by West African countries. It¹s just not in their genes. Science does not support the speculation that East Africans dominate because of social factors
t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
On 4/23/01 9:46 AM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is interesting is that in both Boston and London an American or Brit was 6th. I do believe Cox would have been top 5 at Boston if it wasn't for the cramp in his side. What does Jon have to say about South African runners? According to gene studies, such as Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geograpy of Genes, South African blacks (by and large) trace much of their ancestry to East Africa. Of course I haven't read your book Jon. I already know what it basically says because you've told us countless times...:) Still doesn't prove that North/East Africans are dominating marathoning. North and East Africans win approximately 50 percent of the top marathons, all drawn from a population base of less than 3 million or so (the areas that turn out such runners). Poverty probably cuts into the potential of a good percentage of those. If that's not dominance, you've managed to redefine the term. If that was the case then there would never be a Brit, American, Asian, Russian, ect in the top 10 and the world record would be shot into the stratosphere. Alan: You miss the point entirely. This is not genetic determinism. Genes proscribe possibility, they don't confer inevitability. A marathon is too filled with serendipity to exclude anyone from POSSIBLY doing well. Are their tall women in the world? Yes. Are men taller than women? On average, yes -- the bell curve distribution for tallness is both longer towards tallness and fatter -- there are more at each of the longer heights. It's exactly the same in running. The Bell Curve distribution at sprinting is VERY long and VERY thick for athletes of West African ancestry. It's quite long and thick on the endurance end for North and East Africans. The bell curve distribution for whites may be longer at both (more body type variance in general) but not thicker at either end. At least that's what anthropologists believe. Americans and Brits once produced a good flow of 2:10 or better marathoners or those capable of a sub 2:10. Running under 2:10 will still win you quite a few international marathons. Add a drop of EPO here and there and we've got a good stream of 2:06's. The 2:10 marathoners of the 80s would most likely run 2:08 or better today simply because that is what it would take to win, so that is how they would train. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
You could go to Eldoret in the Rift Valley, through a net of five miles, and turn up probably ten times the talent of that group. Sorry. On 4/23/01 11:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's line up Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin, Meyer, Lindsay, Bjorkland, Durden, Wells, Beardsley, et al - most of whom competed at the same time at an elite level - at the starting line in Hopkington and the top ten would take a decidedly American look even today. Throw in whatever pharmeceuticals are currently in vogue and who knows what the possibilities would be. The countries of the British Isles can do the same. The problem is probably less a genetic issue than an interest as a competitive event issue at least in the US and the Celtic states. Steve S. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. On 4/13/01 3:10 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 1:17 AM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BOTH THE Nigerians and Cameroonians won the world cup. As I said - stick to what you know. Both the Nigerians and Cameroons reached the world cup finals, No African country has won it. Eygpt - East Africa - has been in the finals three times, Nigeria four. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Randall: Rather than QUESTIONING my scholarship why don't you actually take the book out of the library and CRITIQUE it. Otherwise you will continue to make statements that are not supported by the facts, such as that Kenyans have a great body type for soccer, a fact that you are now apparently withdrawing. My minor factual error slipping World Cup for Olympic gold medal does in NO way effect the issue or substantive argument. You are creating a straw men. If you read the book and find errors, I would be happy to correct them. If you find the reasoning fallacious, go at it: I'll revise the book and eat humble pie. That's what discourse is all about, not questioning that WHICH YOU HAVE NOT READ. On 4/13/01 8:48 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 3:26 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. It is basic errors like this that make me wonder how much of the rest of what John Entine says is correct. The Olympic football tournament is not nearly as prestigious as the World Cup. It is a junior tournament for players under 23 years of age, with three overage players in each squad. The big European countries don't send full squads because their players are on league duty. Indeed there is no British team in the tournament Granted Nigerians are better at football than Kenyans, they are a little bit better than the Egyptians and Tunisians and Europe has plundered their players. The Nigerians are better than the South Africans as well but football is an even bigger deal in South Africa. There are many factors that stop Kenyans from being good at football. I'm not a physiologist but their body "types" look good for footballers to me. Apart from eating and drinking, the two things I know about are athletics and football and I have seen so many basic errors of fact in John Entine's posts that I have to question the rest of his scholarship. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Randall: Rather than QUESTIONING my scholarship why don't you actually take the book out of the library and CRITIQUE it. Otherwise you will continue to make statements that are not supported by the facts, such as that Kenyans have a great body type for soccer, a fact that you are now apparently withdrawing. My minor factual error slipping World Cup for Olympic gold medal does in NO way effect the issue or substantive argument. You are creating a straw men. If you read the book and find errors, I would be happy to correct them. If you find the reasoning fallacious, go at it: I'll revise the book and eat humble pie. That's what discourse is all about, not questioning that WHICH YOU HAVE NOT READ. On 4/13/01 8:48 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 3:26 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. It is basic errors like this that make me wonder how much of the rest of what John Entine says is correct. The Olympic football tournament is not nearly as prestigious as the World Cup. It is a junior tournament for players under 23 years of age, with three overage players in each squad. The big European countries don't send full squads because their players are on league duty. Indeed there is no British team in the tournament Granted Nigerians are better at football than Kenyans, they are a little bit better than the Egyptians and Tunisians and Europe has plundered their players. The Nigerians are better than the South Africans as well but football is an even bigger deal in South Africa. There are many factors that stop Kenyans from being good at football. I'm not a physiologist but their body "types" look good for footballers to me. Apart from eating and drinking, the two things I know about are athletics and football and I have seen so many basic errors of fact in John Entine's posts that I have to question the rest of his scholarship. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: About the genetics of lung capacity
That's just not true Alan. We can't test for the specific gene frequencies in 99 percent of the phenotypic characteristics that are rooted in the genome, even such common things as the ability to have five fingers. Yet, scientists can and have tested for the genetics of lung capacity in animals and found there is a very significant (more than 70 percent I believe the tests show) of a genetic component. They have also done this through twin studies. Then applied to humans, they have found how "plastic" human lung capacity is or is not. It's not very plastic -- it only has a circumscribed response to conditioning. I believe you are confusing apples and oranges. We can definitively know something is genetically grounded in part without knowing the exact mechanisms for it. That's true for most scientific theories, from gravity to evolution to Copernican theory. Testing at birth wouldn't tell you much since your growth is to a large degree genetically programmed. It would have to be after the last growth spurt. Well, then there would be no good way to test for genetic lung capacity because after birth you will improve your lung capacity by your activity (running to and from school, tending to the flock). It could be that a certain group of people turn out to be great runners because the walk and run a lot as children. Take a look at US history over the past 50 years. We have turned more and more away from our rural roots. Our children sit around, watch TV and get fat. That is why we have the highest child obesity rate in the worldwe are lazy as a whole. That was not true 50 years ago. Alan -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3545
That's because Kalenjin women are, by and large, not permitted to run, as I explain in "Taboo." But let's not let the facts get in the of pseudo-science. For the record, the last four Boston Marathon women's division races have been won by East African women from the identical western rim of the Great Rift Valley and an shared genetics with the Kalenjin. But let's not let the facts get in the of pseudo-science. I guess you're right Randall. It's because Kalenjins and other highlander East Africans smile more that explains why they win in Kenya. On 4/13/01 5:19 PM, "t-and-f-digest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:59:10 +0100 From: Randall Northam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Kalenjins Who Have Won Boston on 13/4/01 10:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Following is a list of the Kalenjin women who have won the Boston Marathon: Gee, with all the tribes that make up the Kalenjin "tribe", you'd think they could have won something. Bruce Meyer KUKIMBIA Chicago That's because they are all trying to become football players but they don't realise they have the wrong body shape! Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
or Dorobo, were partially engulfed by the migrating Kalenjin and adopted their own variants of the language. The likely course of events is that the incoming populations split and that language differences among their descendants who now speak Bantu, Nilotic, and Cushitic, resulted from geo-graphical separation and incidental contact with other groups. Centuries later, sometime in the next second millennium, it is believed they dis-persed to their present homeland along the rim of the Rift Valley northwest of Lake Tur-kana, with some spreading into and across the valley when their movement was not ob-structed by the Masai. Nilotic people pressed in from the north, intermarrying with the Cushites and bringing their own customs, particularly the ritual of circumcision. The principal groups that today constitute the Kalenjin tribe all appear to have been segments of the core population from the Mount Elgon area. By the 1600s, as the Bantu expanded eastward from Central West Africa, the Kalenjin retreated to their highland strongholds, breaking into numerous smaller groups, mostly cattle rustlers and warriors, who defended against outsiders but sometimes quarreled among themselves. Raiding parties would celebrate victories with a ceremonial drink of milk mixed with cows blood. One of the largest of the native groups came to be known as the Chemwal, the Kalenjin word meaning raid cattle, or those who steal. It is the forerunner of the Nandi, who have been a distinct tribe for almost three centuries. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Clarifying the post on Boston Marathon
Just to be clear, I use the word "Kalenjin" in the broad sense, used by John Manners and others. Kalenjins are spread out along the western rim of the Rift Valley and constitute about half of the province's population. The Rift Valley area is also homeland to the Kissi and the Kikuyu, which includes the Kamba, I believe. Cosmas Ndeti is a Kamba tribesman. Lameck Aguta belongs to the Kisii tribe. The stats I posted on probabilities extend to these tribes as well. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Oleg: Actually, there is every reason to elieve there is a genetic component to that as well, but it's too long to get into here. The difference, however, is that the Kenyan example provides statistical evidence, but that is only a small fraction of the evidencethe rest is based on documented anatomical and physiological differences between populations, which also points to the same conclusion that bio-genetics are critical factors in understanding what's going on. On 4/12/01 12:12 PM, "Oleg Shpyrko" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Statistics is a pretty interesting tool for making this type of arguments. Example: Over the past 75 years the world chess crown belonged to a russian (and by "russian" I mean the broad definition of the term) 70 times out of 75. The chance of this happening by "accident" is even lower than the chances of a kenyan winning Boston 10 years in a row. To put some numbers together, it's about (.03)^70, or roughly 10^(-105) or 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Give or take a few orders of magnitude :) Someone please double check the number of zeros. For comparison, your number is "only" 10^(-36). My scenario is 10^(-69) times less likely to happen by "accident"! According to your logic, this should suggest that russian people have specific "chess" gene. I should also add that chess is not even considered to be among top 20 most popular sports among russians. Hockey, soccer, basketball, athletics, swimming, gymnastics, volleyball, etc. are much more popular. Why are we "afraid to talk" about THAT? Just an idea for your next book. Oleg. -Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon Here's some background for those trying to understand the bio-cultural reasons for Kenyan/Kalenjin dominance at Boston. For the empiricist in you, the last 10 Boston Marathons (male) have been won by a Kenyan. More specifically, all the winners have been Kalenjins, a loosely-named group of approximately 1.5 million people. The chances of that happening by chance, based on population statistics alone, is 1 in 1,048,576,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 . Or, as a decimal: 0.0001 For those who say it's because of social channeling, it's intriguing to note that running is a poor third in sports popularity Kenya, well-behind the national obsession of soccer (which they are not very competitive at compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for it) and cricket (at which they are decidedly mediocre as well). On the flip side, the best Kenyan time (or time by any East African) in the 100 meters is 10.28 seconds, about 5,000 on the all time list while the best time by a person of West African ancestry is 9.79 seconds. Of course it's ALL because of social conditioning and population genetics has nothing to do with it. Perhaps the most persuasive prima facie case suggesting that sports success is not a purely environmental phenomena may be found in the real-life laboratory of the Nandi Hills, Kenya and more specifically the Kalenjin, represents a mind-boggling concentration of athletic talent. The Kalenjin represent roughly three-quarters of Kenyas world-class runners (half of whom are from one tribe, the Nandi). Hundreds of years ago, what African historians refer to as a proto-Kalenjin population migrated from the Nilotic core area northwest of Lake Turkana to the Mt. Elgon area, where the group fragmented and moved to its present locations in the highlands. This is the home of the Nandi, part of the Kalenjins. The historical concentration of top runners among the Nandi, and the more recent emergence of top runners in the more northerly groups such as the Keiyo, Marakwet, and Tugen, could understandably be linked to the influence of the internationally renowned running program at St. Patricks in Iten, which is close to those three groups. However, these trends only reconfirm overall Kalenjin dominance. There certainly appears to be a common genetic thread that runs through the amorphous Kalenjin population. According to John Manners, who has written two books on Kenyan running, there feedback loop of the regions evolutionary history and East African culture is well established. Intriguingly, one of the few non-Kalenjin tribes to make a mark on the in-ternational running scene is the Kisii, with whom the Kalenjin have had especially intense interaction over the past several centuries. The Da-tooga (also called the Dadog) in Tanzania, who speak Southern Nilotic, a language very close to that of
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Alan. Of course, you make great points. But don't expect a person of West African ancestry to ever win a marathon -- they have such small, genetically determined lung capacity and huge percentage of fast twitch muscles and other anatomical and physiological characteristics that it would be a long shot at best. On the other hand, East Asians have a great phenotype for the marathon and particularly the ultra-marathon, as I explain in Taboo. It is not just happenstance or culture that East Asians and their descendants such as the Tarahumara Indians are among the world's dominant ultra-endurance runners. On 4/12/01 11:42 AM, "alan tobin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it's old news that Kenyans, mainly Kalenjin's, dominate distance running today. Their evolution has made them superb distance runners. They have lived at altitude for millions of years. They have lived a harder existance than say the American silver platter life. I would like to make one point though about Boston: 2000 winner Elija Lagat, 2:09:471979 winner Bill Rodgers, 2:09:271981 winner Toshihiko Seko, 2:09:261986 winner Robert de Castella, 2:07:511990 winner Gerlindo Bordin, 2:08:19. Kenyans win this race, but so do Americans, Japanese, Australians, and Italians. They also win it in about the same time. Kenyans have seemed to dominate this race as of late, but not to the point where non-Kenyans can no longer win. They aren't winning this race any faster than it was won 20 years ago. Genetics and their way of life give the Kalenjin's a better starting point, but the finish line is the same for every runner. If the Japanese marathoners ran Boston then I'd think they would give the Kalenjin's a run for their money. In a few years I can see a handful of US runners under 2:10, maybe even under 2:08:00. Of course the US's best marathoners are running 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Sticking to what I know
Randall: I am sticking to what I know Randall. I've actually read the genetic and scientific research on this. Your eye balls are not empirical research. Nor do they reflect physiological differences. A certain degree of upper body strength is very critical to do well. When one talks about body type, it is within a range, like a Bell Curve distribution. You are not likely to find a high concentration within that range of great soccer body types in Kenya -- or from athletes who trace their ancestry to the mountainous regions of North Africa, where the people share a common ancestry with East Africans. East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity, which tends to be somewhat inefficient for the explosive speeds you need in many positions in soccer. Plus, they have a preponderance of slow twitch muscle fibers, which is not the best for attackers. That's just anatomical/physiological facts. These facts are MOST CLEAR in sprinting, in which Kenyans are just not that fast at 100 meters (10,28 best, pretty pathetic) although they get progressively better as the distance increases, as more aerobic skills come into play. Again, that's just fact based. North African "flat landers," those who live and trace their ancestry to the coast, are a much different genetic population than those from the mountains. There is some interesting data on this, for instance, in Cavalli-Sforza's "The History and Geography of Genes." As for these being generalizations, OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT POPULATION GENETICS IS. Are men taller than women? Of course. Is every man taller than every woman? Of course not. Does finding a tall woman "prove" that men are not, as a generalization, taller than most women? Of course not. Do Kenyans have the body type and physiology to be great soccer players? No. Is it possible that individual Kenyans may emerge who become great soccer players? Of course. Would that mean that therefore Kenyan body type as a generalization is ill-suited to elite success in that sport? Of course note. The proof is in the science of body types and physiology which concurs with the vast empirical data -- in this case, Kenyans are mediocre soocer players and not very fast 100 meter runners. On the other hand, we have carping and purely speculate "environmental" theories that are laughed at by scientists and without much support from the empirical evidence. Sorry Randall.. On 4/12/01 4:10 PM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 12/4/01 6:15 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (which they are not very competitive at compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for it) I know I shouldn't step into this minefield, but I do find some of this, just as I found some of John Entine's other posts, breathtakingly sweeping. Kenyans don't have the body type for football (association football that is)! I don't know much about genetics but I do know my football, been obsessed with it for nearly 50 years and it seems to me Kenyans (runners that is) are skinny with a great power/weight ratio which is exactly what is needed for soccer. Speed is necessary but power is just as important as is stamina. Look at Thierry Henry of Arsenal. Looks like a middle distance runner, look at most soccer players, they look like middle distance runners. Very few are the bulky typical Nigerian sprinter types. If you were picking a football shape among sprinters it would be Don Quarrie, not Maurice Greene. Nigeria and Cameroon have risen to the top of the African football ladder recently but they still haven't truly overtaken Tunisia and Egypt. And the players in those countries look like middle distance runners too. Stick to what you know about John, you clearly know nothing about football. Randall Northam "When they said sit down, I stood up" my own little religious slogan. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3543
Tests on sedentary adult males comparing different populations. Testing at birth wouldn't tell you much since your growth is to a large degree genetically programmed. It would have to be after the last growth spurt. Scientists testing muscular fiber type, such as Claude Bouchard whose work is renowned in this area, focus on such a late teenage or early twenties groups. On 4/12/01 7:23 PM, "t-and-f-digest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:19:24 -0700 From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: lung capacity Jon Entine wrote: East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity Do you mean untrained lung capacity? The only way I can imagine you could test for "natural" lung capacity would be at birth. - - Ed Parrot -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Tests on sedentary adult males comparing different populations. Testing at birth wouldn't tell you much since your growth is to a large degree genetically programmed. It would have to be after the last growth spurt. Scientists testing muscular fiber type, such as Claude Bouchard whose work is renowned in this area, focus on such a late teenage or early twenties groups. On 4/12/01 7:23 PM, "t-and-f-digest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:19:24 -0700 From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: lung capacity Jon Entine wrote: East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity Do you mean untrained lung capacity? The only way I can imagine you could test for "natural" lung capacity would be at birth. - - Ed Parrot -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Borzov and misunderstanding population genetics
On 12/20/00 10:19 AM, "t-and-f-digest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated Mon, 18 Dec 2000 4:05:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Wayne T. Armbrust" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: \Another example of less than sterling scholarship by Mr. Entine. Willful ignorance has no bounds. This is yet another example of someone who obviously has not read my book, which makes few "broad brush strokes," as those who have read it can attest. In fact, about 80 percent of the book deals with the danger of broad brush strokes, such as the kind you employed in dismissing a book you have not read. lNo one suggests that Borzov was not one of the great sprinters of his time, though he was almost certainly a product to some degree of the early Soviet experimentation with steroids. That said, as I've written (and population geneticists have written), individual examples indicate little to nothing about group trends. If tomorrow, a white would suddenly crack the world 100 meter sprint record, it would in no way threaten the scientifically certain thesis that body types are largely controlled by genetic factors and that the body types that do best in elite sprinting are more likely to be found among people of West African origin. To say otherwise would be suggesting that if we became aware of an 8 foot tall woman it would disprove the scientifically air tight reality that men are by and large taller than women--because of genetic factors. Individual cases do not prove or disprove anything. In the case of sprinting, we have an amazing confluence of both statistical evidence AND overwhelming and consistent scientific evidence. Moreover, it is certainly relevant to discuss all time times, especially in sports in which access by athletes has been limited by social and cultural factors. When Borzov was running, he was the product of a relatively sophisticated Soviet medical and sport training system. Blacks from West Africa and most Caribbean countries did not compete at all. Few American blacks competed--sprinters were almost all drawn from college programs in which black representation was relatively miniscule. Track did not pay much at all in those days, adding to its limited social appeal. And other sports, baseball, football, and basketball, were far more popular in the black community. Now we have a relative "level" playing field (though still not in West Africa, where the opportunities to participate in sports). It's certainly clear that individual exceptions aside, the only great 100 meter runners in the foreseeable future will come from certain populations in West Africa and perhaps in other regions, such as among Aboriginals. That's as clear as the nose on our face. Now if you read Taboo and find specific things you disagree with, fine. But this kind of sweeping, willful ignorance reflects only on you. By the way, the paperback is now out and it incorporates the corrections that some on this list have pointed out. Thankfully, the editorial mistakes ended up being very few in number. I suggest those interested in the subject might also read I Bengt Saltin¹s cover story on ³Muscles and Genes² in the September Scientific American. Also, the September 2000 documentary, ³The Faster Race,² by the BBC¹s all-black production team, Black Britain interviewed Saltin: ³It¹s a strong genetic component what type of muscle fiber you have, either slow or face² said professor Saltin. ³And West Africans have already 70 or 75 percent of the fast type when they are born. And that¹s needed for a 100 meter race around 9.9 seconds.² What about distance running? ³The Kenyans are born with a high number of slow twitch fibers,² states Saltin. ³They have 70 to 75 percent of their muscle fibers being slow... Very many in sports physiology would like to believe that it is training, the environment, what you eat that plays the most important role. But we argue based on the data that it is in your genes¹ whether or not you are talented or whether you will become talented. There is no question about that. The extent of the environment can always be discussed but it¹s less than 20, 25 percent. It¹s definitely a dominant factor how they are born. I don¹t see this as a racist issue.² Yes, in condemning Valeriy Borzov to the scrap heap of history, Entine once again shows that he is incapable of judging performances in their proper historical context. I was originally a big backer of his book, but as he continues to make broad brush strokes based on bad analysis of track statistics, I start to wonder about expertise in other areas. Using the Entine yardstick, Munich winners like Kip Keino, Lasse Viren, Rod Milburn and Viktor Saneyev were also doo-doo because they don't rate highly on today's all-time lists. gh -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Borzov and misunderstanding population genetics
nters that have and continue to be among the worlds best in the sprints .. So no not hyperventilating Mr. Entine just calling you to task and responding to the aura of arrogance that you routinely bring to this list .. Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: German women
Considering the debate about the East German sports machine, I was fortunate to spend a few weeks in East Germany in the days after the Berlin Wall came down. I did a documentary on it and also included what I learned in my book, Taboo. Below are a few excerpts that might put some of these issues in perspective. Jon Entine http://www.jonentine.com Sport as Religion The truth of the unloved and now unmourned German Democratic Republic can be found in the rubble of the rebuilding effort in East Berlin, Jena, and other formerly dingy cities where Paleozoic construction sites swarm with dinosaur-like cranes. Yet, Easterners still speak with awe and pride of their sports accomplishments. The GDR¹s massive gold collection managed to irk even the Soviets, embarrass the West Germans, and drive the Americans to defensive apologies. In a country where a rusting, fuel-snorting, two-stroke Trabant automobile that needed to be cranked to start became emblematic of the nation¹s problems, the state-controlled athletic system resembled a BMW. It churned out Olympic-class widgets with relentless German precision, an invaluable achievement for a country hungry for recognition. Created by partition in 1947, East Germany was never the better half. Seventeen million people, one-third the size of the population of the Federal Republic of Germany to the west, crowded into a land the size of Virginia that had been laid destitute by war. While western investments poured into West Germany, sparking a postwar boom economic boom, the East remained a dour and crumpled mess, a pariah. East Germany¹s first leader, Walter Ulbricht, settled on sports as a way to galvanize national pride and forge a distinct identity separate from that of the West. Declaring that ³athletes were ambassadors in gym clothes,² he drew upon a German tradition of sports and fitness stretching back more than three hundred years. In the early days the official government sports complex was one room in a tiny brick building in a bombed-out neighborhood, a mere bullet shot from where the Berlin wall would later rise. Milking his political connections, Manfred Ewald quickly emerged as the sports power in the new country. He had been recruited for the job by the future commu-nist party chief Erich Honecker, who had just taken over the leadership of the Free German Youth after spending twelve years in concentration camps for his opposition to Hitler. ³We needed high performances to demonstrate and underline the existence of our sports sys-tem,² said Ewald. Ewald was quick to grasp the historic opportunity. He created the Deutscher Turn und Sports Bund (DTSB), or German Gymnastics and Sports Union. He begged, borrowed, and squeezed bone-dry budgets to piece together a vast system of sports clubs and schools. A sports college was built on the cheap in Leipzig. While the nearby city remained a living corpse of shattered, bomb-pocked buildings, the DTSB spent lavishly on a 100,000-seat stadium, tartan tracks, numerous indoor and outdoor Olympic-sized pools, modern rowing and canoeing facilities, and dozens of laboratories and lecture halls. The Research Institute for Physical Culture became the official heart of the sports machine. Training centers sprouted like dandelions. The government even reserved the most up-to-date medical facilities. The West had nothing comparable to the long-secret Barochamber in a suburb of East Berlin, where select elite athletes would spend days or weeks training underground at simulated altitudes. For the most part, however, the trumpeted machine was decidedly low tech. Even the best workout facilities, such as the vast government gymnasium in Berlin or Katarina Witt¹s nearby ice rink, looked more like industrial eyesores. The system relied on a mind-boggling number of dedicated volunteers, scouts, coaches, and scientists. The winnowing process began with a form of Olympics for toddlers: children were measured, weighed, timed, and psychologically evaluated not long after they learned to walk. The results were matched against a ³superior toddler² model for each and every sport. ³In East Germany, what mattered was not the individual but the collective,² ob-served Manfred Hoppner, once East Germany¹s top sports physician. The most promising children were steered into the appropriate state-supported maze of sports programs and schools. The rest were summarily discarded, their careers over before puberty. By the time grade schoolers turned into teenagers, the eye of the needle had nar-rowed considerably. ³The government did everything for me,² said sprinter Katrin Krabbe, who, like many former East German stars, recalls the old days with fondness. ³I started training professionally at thirteen. I went to a sports school in Neubrandenburg. All the training, everything, cost my parents [very little].² The best young athletes were channeled into the country¹s two thousand training centers. The survivors were shuttled into the elite
t-and-f: Genes and sports again
Those interested in Saltin's views on this issue should check out the cover story in the September Scientific American on "Muscles and Genes." Also, my book cites many of his articles, if you want to go to the source. For the record, Bengt Saltin, who I interviewed extensively for my book, makes EXACTLY the points Taboo makes. In this documentary, The Faster Race," which was produced by the BBC division "Black Britain," and is very supportive of the book (read reviews of the documentary and an article by the anchor on "reactions around the world" on my web site), Saltin says the following: Its a strong genetic component what type of muscle fiber you have, either slow or fast. And West Africans have already 70 or 75 percent of the fast type when they are born. And thats needed for a 100 meter race around 9.9 seconds. What about distance running? The Kenyans are born with a high number of slow twitch fibers, states Saltin. They have 70 to 75 percent of their muscle fibers being slow... Very many in sports physiology would like to believe that it is training, the environment, what you eat that plays the most important role. But we argue based on the data that it is in your genes whether or not you are talented or whether you will become talented. There is no question about that. The extent of the environment can always be discussed but its less than 20, 25 percent. Its definitely a dominant factor how they are born. I dont see this as a racist issue. For the record, East African blacks, who have a genetic history distinct from blacks of West African ancestry, are notoriously poor sprinters, and perform worse than most whites, as a consequence of their ectomorphic body types, higher proportion of slow twitch muscle fibers, and other genetically-influenced anatomical characteristics. While the best East African time in the 100 meters is held by a Kenyan at 10.28 seconds (about 5,000th on the all-time list), the best time by a white is 10 seconds (220th), the top time by an Asian is 10.4 seconds (228). Athletes of West African ancestry hold the top 219 and 494 of the top 500 times. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: NATIONAL POST ONLINE | Search Results | Story
This is the article. It's actually another documentary: http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20001127/384654.html -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Tom Derderian on Taboo's and noses
Thought some on this list might be interested in reading Tom Derderian's commentary on TABOO in the recent issue of New England Runner entitled "Taboo??The Nose on My Face". The article is at: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/NE_runner.htm. It begins: While sitting in the stands at the New England Track Championships with the athletes of our Greater Boston Track Club (GBTC), one of them grabbed my arm to compare its color with hers. She noted that mine was darker. I noted that she was African American. I looked at her closely with my dark eyes set one on each side of my enormous nose and noticed that she had a very small nose. My nose is so big that I can always see it. It is like living on both sides of the Great Wall of China at the same time. I looked at the nose on this sprinter and wondered how she breathed through such a little thing. Our noses are different. I got mine from from my Armenian ancestors. She got hers from her West African ancestors. Our skin is about the same color. Neither of us is good at digesting milk. But she can sprint, and I cant. So I began to wonder about noses, skin color, athletic ability, and why people dont like to talk about such differences. * Also, some might be interested in an essay I wrote on the scientific and athletic controversy stirred up by TABOO that appeared recently on Salon.com. It's available at: http://www.salon.com/news/sports/olympics/2000/09/23/race/index.html -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: minimum qualifying times?
Does anyone know the minimum qualifying times for the 100 meters and 200 meters? Also, does anyone know where on the Net one could find a list of qualifiers for the Olympics for various track events? -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
RE: t-and-f: flo-jo
on as a "crazy, lying lunatic," but she never raced again. Her career 100 m 200m 1982 11.12[8] 22.39[10] 1983 11.06[6] 22.23[5] 1984 10.99[3] 22.04[5] 1985 11.00[6] 22.46[7] 1986 unranked unranked 1987 10.96[6] 21.96[2] 1988 10.49[1] 21.34[1] Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com For background on Jon, reviews and commentaries on his book, TABOO: WHY BLACK ATHLETES DOMINATE SPORTS AND WHY WE ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IT, and background on his writings on business ethics and brand marketing, click through to his web page at: www.jonentine.com.
t-and-f: Why Kenyans are lousy at their national sport, soccer...
FYI, Quokka.com recently ran a three part series excerpting a chapter of my book on culture, genes and athletics. The series begins at: http://www.quokka.com/0008/24/QCMb7misc_s_taboo_WFC.html Among the more interesting questions the series/chapter answers, "Why are Kenyans such fanatical lovers of soccer, their national sport, but so mediocre at it?" For that matter, "Why are East Africans, among the more populous African countries, so uncompetitive agains such powers as Nigeria, Cameroon, or even tiny Ivory Coast?" And how is it possible that 797 of the top 800 all time 100 meter times are held by athletes of West African ancestry, yet there are no top distance runners of primarily West African ancestry. These are all intriguing questions that deepen our understanding of what we will see unfold in Sydney! Jon Entine (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: coaching and performance
Steve-- The flaw in Steve's belief coaches are the primary reason why one runner excels over another is possible but certainly conjectural. There are other factors, most prominently genetics, that might reduce the coaching factor to insignificance. Jon Entine Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:22:31 -0400 From: "franno" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: American Sprinting ( was Re: t-and-f: Micheal Johnson) - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 2:09 PM Subject: Re: American Sprinting ( was Re: t-and-f: Micheal Johnson) I guess Michael Johnson (Baylor) is not good enough for the list presented. He also must have been unaware of the need to stay away from those nasty Texas schools. Mr. Thompson must have had the same map. Maybe Ato shouldn't have attended school in California. John Smith should have gotten a coaching job at a less traditional sprinting school - let's say Princeton - at least the academics would be good. Didn't Montgomery and Brian Lewis both attend Norfolk State? Steve S. Hey I said that there are two men sprint coaches of note that I can recall currently operating in the American College system. Dan Pfaff and John Smith. I also allowed for the sprinters who attended American Schools in the mountains. Tim Montgomery went to Norfolk but did not run the Division 1 circuit, turning pro very early. The question you should ask is what has happened the hundreds of top sprinters emerging annually from the colleges and the high schools. Why are they being beat consistently by people who train in Europe and elsewhere? Apart from Mo Greene where are the sprinters? I have not mentioned Brian Lewis in the list of top sprinters. He could not make the finals at the World Championships!!! Michael Johnson is a freak of nature. Something like Secretariat - for horseracing fans. I do not include Michael Johnson in any survey of ordinary humans. 19.32 and 43.18. If his coach is so good, who else has he produced? Every year we hear about some wonder Texas kid who has signed for Baylor. How come none of them make it to the very top of the sport? We hear about Baylor relay teams etc. Where are the superstars produced. Why doesn't he use the Michael Johnson formula? FYI, that is exactly why I do not believe that MJ is on drugs. He is a one in a lifetime athlete developed by a coach who cannot reproduce the formula. Regards Stephen Francis -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 :: [fax] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
