Re: [Tagging] Hot springs and Geysers
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 08:42:40AM +0900, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > There are now over 500 hot springs mapped with natural=hot_spring. The tag > was proposed way back in 2008 but the proposal was never approved. Wiki: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dhot_spring > Original proposal: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring > > Some people have suggested tagging hot springs with natural=spring and a > spring=hot subtag, but hot springs have a quite different geological origin > and cultural significance. The wiki page for natural=spring has a link to > hot spring: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dspring > > Geysers are also tagged natural=geyser. They could be considered a type of > spring, but they are also similar to a fumarole or volcanic vent, and I > would be quite surprised to see a geyser mapped as a “spring” > Wiki: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dgeyser > > Thoughts on these tags? If natural=hot_springbkeeps climbing in use, we > could start rendering it on the Openstreetmap-Carto style (“standard > layer”) soon, if there is agreement on the tagging. yep. I avoided a vote on the proposal because too many people were suggesting to use various combinations of natural=spring+temparature=XX and similar instead. However Tag:natural=hot_spring has been created anyway, apparently is marked as "de facto" since 2015 and nobody complained since than so it would seem alright to file a ticket to OpenCarto asking to have it rendered. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs and geysers
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:15:56 +1000 From: Graeme Fitzpatrick To: OSM Tag Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hot springs and Geysers On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 09:44, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: There are now over 500 hot springs mapped with natural=hot_spring. The tag was proposed way back in 2008 but the proposal was never approved. Wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dhot_spring Original proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring Yep, sounds like a good idea Some people have suggested tagging hot springs with natural=spring and a spring=hot subtag, but hot springs have a quite different geological origin and cultural significance. The wiki page for natural=spring has a link to hot spring: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dspring Agree that hot spring & spring=hot are different Geysers are also tagged natural=geyser. They could be considered a type of spring, but they are also similar to a fumarole or volcanic vent, and I would be quite surprised to see a geyser mapped as a “spring” Wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dgeyser Notice that they also suggested using hot spring for mud. I would think that bubbling mud puddles would be a different thing again? Thoughts on these tags? If natural=hot_springbkeeps climbing in use, we could start rendering it on the Openstreetmap-Carto style (“standard layer”) soon, if there is agreement on the tagging. Thanks Graeme +1 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs and Geysers
Some hot springs just look like regular springs. But hot springs in volcanic areas are often sulfuric and may have heavy mineral content. The picture on the wiki page shows an impressive example. Others are boiling “mud pots”. I didn’t find any uses of alternative tagging of natural=spring with spring=hot or spring=hot_spring on Overpass Turbo, and the combinations listed with natural=spring by Taginfo do not show anything hot-spring related (though there may be something with less than 1000 uses) I don’t see any tags with natural=spring and spring=geyser on overpass turbo either. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:57 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 22/10/18 11:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 09:44, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > >> There are now over 500 hot springs mapped with natural=hot_spring. The >> tag was proposed way back in 2008 but the proposal was never approved. >> Wiki: >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dhot_spring >> Original proposal: >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring >> > > Yep, sounds like a good idea > > >> >> Some people have suggested tagging hot springs with natural=spring and a >> spring=hot subtag, but hot springs have a quite different geological origin >> and cultural significance. The wiki page for natural=spring has a link to >> hot spring: >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dspring >> > > Agree that hot spring & spring=hot are different > > > I have seen both 'natural cold springs' and 'natural hot springs'. > To me there is enough variation in appearance of 'natural cold springs' to > encompass 'natural hot springs'. > The only difference between the two is the temperature. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs and Geysers
On 22/10/18 11:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 09:44, Joseph Eisenberg mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: There are now over 500 hot springs mapped with natural=hot_spring. The tag was proposed way back in 2008 but the proposal was never approved. Wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dhot_spring Original proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring Yep, sounds like a good idea Some people have suggested tagging hot springs with natural=spring and a spring=hot subtag, but hot springs have a quite different geological origin and cultural significance. The wiki page for natural=spring has a link to hot spring: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dspring Agree that hot spring & spring=hot are different I have seen both 'natural cold springs' and 'natural hot springs'. To me there is enough variation in appearance of 'natural cold springs' to encompass 'natural hot springs'. The only difference between the two is the temperature. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs and Geysers
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 09:44, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > There are now over 500 hot springs mapped with natural=hot_spring. The tag > was proposed way back in 2008 but the proposal was never approved. Wiki: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dhot_spring > Original proposal: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring > Yep, sounds like a good idea > > Some people have suggested tagging hot springs with natural=spring and a > spring=hot subtag, but hot springs have a quite different geological origin > and cultural significance. The wiki page for natural=spring has a link to > hot spring: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dspring > Agree that hot spring & spring=hot are different > > Geysers are also tagged natural=geyser. They could be considered a type of > spring, but they are also similar to a fumarole or volcanic vent, and I > would be quite surprised to see a geyser mapped as a “spring” > Wiki: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dgeyser > Notice that they also suggested using hot spring for mud. I would think that bubbling mud puddles would be a different thing again? > > Thoughts on these tags? If natural=hot_springbkeeps climbing in use, we > could start rendering it on the Openstreetmap-Carto style (“standard > layer”) soon, if there is agreement on the tagging. > Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Hot springs and Geysers
There are now over 500 hot springs mapped with natural=hot_spring. The tag was proposed way back in 2008 but the proposal was never approved. Wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dhot_spring Original proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring Some people have suggested tagging hot springs with natural=spring and a spring=hot subtag, but hot springs have a quite different geological origin and cultural significance. The wiki page for natural=spring has a link to hot spring: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dspring Geysers are also tagged natural=geyser. They could be considered a type of spring, but they are also similar to a fumarole or volcanic vent, and I would be quite surprised to see a geyser mapped as a “spring” Wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dgeyser Thoughts on these tags? If natural=hot_springbkeeps climbing in use, we could start rendering it on the Openstreetmap-Carto style (“standard layer”) soon, if there is agreement on the tagging. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
not sure but usually the sauna in public baths is somewhat separated so we might as well tag part of the object as sauna. Yes, this is a very difficult point. I also could not define which is better. Maybe depending on the situation and country. But from Japanese view, Onsen's main feature is as public_bath and the type of bath is the sub category. (and from operator's view, it is easier to make query :) ) If the facility announces they are XXX's sauna or given name, and they are not onsen amenity, it is better to tag them as amenity=sauna even in Japan. 2014-03-10 17:23 GMT+09:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 01:44:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: John some onsen are not associated with hot springs, but have hot sand instead. Yes, but they are rare case. Most of onsen are hot water bath. So might be represented by adding following sub_tags. bath:sand_bath=[yes|no] ; if the bathing amenity is sand bath (Suna_yu) or not. that reminds me we also have hay_bath in the Alps, so that would also fit into it and may be helpful for other cases too. bath:sauna=[yes|no] ; if the bathing amenity has sauna facility. (Use it when the main function of the amenity is public_bath. consider using amenity=sauna when the main purpose of the amenity is sauna) not sure but usually the sauna in public baths is somewhat separated so we might as well tag part of the object as sauna. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
To me, Amenity=onsen is similar to amenity=townhall. for many onsen, there is no particular room you would say is the onsen, just like no particular room is the townhall, It is the title of the facility itself.. The purpose of the facility becomes it's name. There might be some small facilities where a certain building is the onsen, or there is a separation between the shower/prep areas and the actual bathing area, or like a Hotel with a public onsen indoors, and and separate, outdoor bath(s) outside. Tag the amenity on the landuse for the hotel, or tag the amenity onto the hotel building with :outdoor=no, and :outdoor=yes on the actual outdoor bath building/pool. Same thing would go for a sauna. If the building itself is bob's sauna - the obviously tag the building or landuse. if only part of the area can be defined as the sauna - when the facility's purpose isn't to be a sauna, like a hotel complex or something, then just tag the sauna area by itself, right? Javbw On Mar 14, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: not sure but usually the sauna in public baths is somewhat separated so we might as well tag part of the object as sauna. Yes, this is a very difficult point. I also could not define which is better. Maybe depending on the situation and country. But from Japanese view, Onsen's main feature is as public_bath and the type of bath is the sub category. (and from operator's view, it is easier to make query :) ) If the facility announces they are XXX's sauna or given name, and they are not onsen amenity, it is better to tag them as amenity=sauna even in Japan. 2014-03-10 17:23 GMT+09:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 01:44:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: John some onsen are not associated with hot springs, but have hot sand instead. Yes, but they are rare case. Most of onsen are hot water bath. So might be represented by adding following sub_tags. bath:sand_bath=[yes|no] ; if the bathing amenity is sand bath (Suna_yu) or not. that reminds me we also have hay_bath in the Alps, so that would also fit into it and may be helpful for other cases too. bath:sauna=[yes|no] ; if the bathing amenity has sauna facility. (Use it when the main function of the amenity is public_bath. consider using amenity=sauna when the main purpose of the amenity is sauna) not sure but usually the sauna in public baths is somewhat separated so we might as well tag part of the object as sauna. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 01:44:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: John some onsen are not associated with hot springs, but have hot sand instead. Yes, but they are rare case. Most of onsen are hot water bath. So might be represented by adding following sub_tags. bath:sand_bath=[yes|no] ; if the bathing amenity is sand bath (Suna_yu) or not. that reminds me we also have hay_bath in the Alps, so that would also fit into it and may be helpful for other cases too. bath:sauna=[yes|no] ; if the bathing amenity has sauna facility. (Use it when the main function of the amenity is public_bath. consider using amenity=sauna when the main purpose of the amenity is sauna) not sure but usually the sauna in public baths is somewhat separated so we might as well tag part of the object as sauna. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Just saying: Tradition among both cavers and hot springs bathing enthusiasts is to keep quiet about locations, passing the word though caving societies and word of mouth. Why? Because caves and hot springs that become well known get trashed, crowded, muggled, and/or shut down due to the above. I know of a number of each type of facility that I won't be adding to the map. I can't stop anyone from mapping them, but unfortunately it would be a shame if osm contributed to their demise. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Mar 7, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: I know of a number of each type of facility that I won't be adding to the map This is for an amenity for a building - like Sauna. not a natural=hot_spring (which is what you are talking about), so cool your waters. Searching the word onsen in Japanese returned 58,000 pins in Japan - It's no secret. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 05:45:51PM +0900, johnw wrote: On Mar 7, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: I know of a number of each type of facility that I won't be adding to the map This is for an amenity for a building - like Sauna. not a natural=hot_spring (which is what you are talking about), so cool your waters. no longer I have changed it to natural_hot_spring and it is supposed to be the hole where hot water exits, along with a tag describing the water characteristic. We have many other ways to map amenitie.s and tourist attractions so that these are merely listed in the proposal Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 12:38:14AM -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Just saying: Tradition among both cavers and hot springs bathing enthusiasts is to keep quiet about locations, passing the word though caving societies and word of mouth. Why? Because caves and hot springs that become well known get trashed, crowded, muggled, and/or shut down due to the above. yes, quite often am I wondering whether I should add a particular little known gem to OSM for this exact reason. For the foreseeable future I don't think OSM is likely to be a major factor trashing them, other media are quicker spreading the news and lists of POIs. With an OSM map, I don't want to be the last one knowing;) Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On 07/03/2014 08:37, johnw wrote: But I don't know the correct word to represent Onsen in English. Is [something]=hot_spring_bath better? XX=hot_spring_bath would be perfect. I think, Onsen is the very unique word to represent bathing amenity, that water from natural hot spring. So, I would like to hear the situations of other countries. There is no single word in english that means onsen, so it would have to be several words at once. But there are other words that have been adopted (wadi, for example) to succinctly describe something that would need multiple words in english, so maybe they'll adopt the Japanese word here. 'Onsen' is in the Oxford Dictionary, defined as 'In Japan: a hot spring, esp. one thought to have medicinal properties; a hot spring resort'. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
'Onsen' is in the Oxford Dictionary, defined as 'In Japan: a hot spring, esp. one thought to have medicinal properties; a hot spring resort'. well hot diggity-dog. There we go. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
2014-03-07 13:12 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: well hot diggity-dog. There we go. +1, in your case I think I'd most probably use onsen to have a very specific tag for the very specific feature you are trying to map, something like hot spring bath is not as specific as onsen (e.g. also refering to style and the legal requirements you laid out above: The water of onsen bathing amenity is from always natural. And in precise, it is upper 25'C and must have mineral element. (by law)), an onsen is a japanese bath, and this is IMHO worth pointing out, just as a restaurant will have typically warm meals, but there is still a big difference between e.g. japanese and say russian kitchen. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Also, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, some onsen are not associated with hot springs, but have hot sand instead. Original Message From: Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com Sent: March 7, 2014 7:34:57 AM CST To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hot springs 2014-03-07 13:12 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: well hot diggity-dog. There we go. +1, in your case I think I'd most probably use onsen to have a very specific tag for the very specific feature you are trying to map, something like hot spring bath is not as specific as onsen (e.g. also refering to style and the legal requirements you laid out above: The water of onsen bathing amenity is from always natural. And in precise, it is upper 25'C and must have mineral element. (by law)), an onsen is a japanese bath, and this is IMHO worth pointing out, just as a restaurant will have typically warm meals, but there is still a big difference between e.g. japanese and say russian kitchen. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
2014-03-07 17:29 GMT+01:00 Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com: * bath:type = foot_bath ** foot_bath is usually are a (free) service offered in the front of the onsen to passerbys. It's very shallow, and surrounded by seats, it's like a big sink, rather than a pool. Ashiyu in Japanese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashiyu not sure if this is really a bath type, my suggestion would be to make it a pool:type or something similar, as it seems to be not refering to the complex as a whole (what I think onsen is) but to a part of an onsen, i.e. a specific pool inside the onsen? Or maybe I got you wrong? bath:type=foot_bath to me suggests a foot_bath only place... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
That's true - this is a specific pool, and would be an amenity offered, usually to the public next to the sidewalk out front ( usually anyone walking by can stick them in) not an overall feature - like a drinking fountain. Sometimes they are inside, in a common waiting area, so if you decide not to bathe with friends, you can at least soak your feet. Perhaps amenity=foot bath? Maybe it's not best for bath type then. I dunno. Javbw PS @dieterdreist - I found the mailing list! I'll be asking about that civic land use shortly. Sent from my iPad On Mar 8, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-03-07 17:29 GMT+01:00 Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com: * bath:type = foot_bath ** foot_bath is usually are a (free) service offered in the front of the onsen to passerbys. It's very shallow, and surrounded by seats, it's like a big sink, rather than a pool. Ashiyu in Japanese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashiyu not sure if this is really a bath type, my suggestion would be to make it a pool:type or something similar, as it seems to be not refering to the complex as a whole (what I think onsen is) but to a part of an onsen, i.e. a specific pool inside the onsen? Or maybe I got you wrong? bath:type=foot_bath to me suggests a foot_bath only place... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 01:15:13AM +0100, Peter Wendorff wrote: Hi Richard, Am 05.03.2014 21:50, schrieb Richard Z.: On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 12:58:51PM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: I don't see anything in that definition that says the heat from within the earth has to be a minimum distance below the surface in order to be classed as geothermal. Volcanism is a subset of geothermal, where the hot material is particularly close to the surface. sometimes it makes sense to distinguish whether something is identical or a subset of something. That's true - but a very bad style for osm tagging, if you propose to use the superset's name (geothermal) for the superset MINUS the subset, so basically you propose to use the superset's name for a subset. Reminds me at the ugly natural=tree issue some time ago, where originally natural=tree referred to outstanding, landmark or important trees, which lead to trouble when other mappers started to map common trees even in groups of trees or small forests one by one. By the way: is it volcanic if and only if it's breaking through the surface, or even in a geysir, or even where it's known to be some ten meters below the surface? Where it get's volcanic? Therefore I disagree about using geothermal for the subset not containing volcanic activity. Use deep-earth-heat or whatever term for a subset, or define a specialized subtag for the subsets (volcanic, ...(non-volcanic?), (others?)). ok, well I was not proposing the use of a geothermal tag at any time. John wanted to know if there is a difference between volcanic and geothermal, and yes there is. Aside of that I don't agree with your argumentation anyway. Why would I introduce a new term like deep-earth-heat when there are perfectly accepted and widely used terms such as volcanic and geothermal? Should use something like tree-containing-area to resolve the forrest vs. wood issues once for all times? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Hello, John an onsen doesn't necessarily have water available, but, if water is available, it must be from a hot spring? Correct. Onsen is not English word Exactly. But I don't know the correct word to represent Onsen in English. Is [something]=hot_spring_bath better? I think, Onsen is the very unique word to represent bathing amenity, that water from natural hot spring. So, I would like to hear the situations of other countries. Martin amenity=public_bath + subtag Thank you. It seems nice approach with no conflict to existing scheme. So detailed possible values are ... 1. bath:type = * * [onsen or hot_spring_bath] * [sento or not_from_spring] * [foot_bath] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashiyu) (I'm not a native speaker, suggestions for more proper expression are welcome!) And, to represent existent of Roten buro(open air bathing amenity) or not, what about to use following tag? Like the key:open_air. (Although only 3 use.) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/open_air 2. bath:open_air = [yes|no] Cheers. 2014-03-06 2:51 GMT+09:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 05/mar/2014 um 17:56 schrieb Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com: The water of onsen bathing amenity is from always natural. And in precise, it is upper 25'C and must have mineral element. (by law) Not from natural water bathing amenity, it must be called Sento (bath house, rough meaning Bath with coin/cheap fee). In fact, some onsen amenity has no water for their amenity. But they are called as onsen. Such as sand bath, or steam bath (sauna). BTW their mutual function is the warmth or water is from natural. * there are many natural, undelopped hot springs in Japan. Are those also called onsen? In the case of. The common, so called, and main meaning of onsen is targeted to represent bathing amenity. By JP law, very natural hot spring with mineral is classified as... * under 25'C water: Kousen (mineral spring) * upper 25'C water: Onsen (hot spring) I could propose following tag combinations to represent onsen amenity, but certainly I think they are not your concern ;) Maybe it is better with another proposal, I would like to hear other country's situation. * Onsen Hotel tourism=hotel (or something other, BB) leisure=onsen * Onsen without lodging amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen * Hotel with Onsen, can use onsen as public_bath also (Higaeri Onsen in Japanese) tourism=hotel (or something other, BB) amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen * Sento (bathing amenity using water not from hot spring) amenity=public_bath what about using amenity=public_bath and then subtype to have specific values according to your legislation and standards, sth. like bath:type=onsen / sento etc. or maybe jp:onsen to give a hint that it is not in English cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 10:06:45AM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out I see :) So I prefer to switch the icon from Onsen icon ♨ to another ones. it ♨ maybe to use for leisure/amenity scheme. another proposal was to use the same symbol as for normal springs in a red color. I can add a leisure=onsen to the proposal, which would take the onsen symbol. But I need clarification regarding the meaning of the word onsen : * does onsen water always come from natural hot springs? * there are many natural, undelopped hot springs in Japan. Are those also called onsen? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Hi Richard, Aren't volcanos exactly what geothermal refers to, only near or at the surface instead of deep down in the earth? IMHO geothermal refers to using the thermal energy (aka heat) of the earth, which of course in general is higher if you go deeper down, but the temperature per depth is variable, and at a volcano you just get high temperature even in low depths, but that's all. regards Peter Am 05.03.2014 10:37, schrieb Richard Z.: But I understand your wish to classify a spring a bit more detailed. I think it would be better to use additional tags for natural=spring. Eg. termal=yes or something similar. geothermal=yes would be closer. But in a strict sense this would exclude springs with volcanically heated water. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 11:01:50AM +0100, Peter Wendorff wrote: Aren't volcanos exactly what geothermal refers to, only near or at the surface instead of deep down in the earth? apparently not, I can only direct you to the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_%28geology%29 IMHO geothermal refers to using the thermal energy (aka heat) of the earth, which of course in general is higher if you go deeper down, but the temperature per depth is variable, and at a volcano you just get high temperature even in low depths, but that's all. yes but it is a difference. If we can do better we should not introduce new tags only to use them incorrectly afterwards. * hot_spring would catch everything that is called hot_spring, I am still thinking about geysirs. * geothermal would not apply for many south Italian hot springs, Methana (Greece) and Yellowstone ( http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2005/3024/, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Prismatic_Spring ) ammong others Now consider the definitions in wikipedia * temperature: ** wikipedia-de: above 20°C (Gemäß den Begriffsbestimmungen werden in Deutschland Grundwässer als Thermalwasser bezeichnet, wenn ihre Temperatur am Austrittsort mehr als 20 °C beträgt) ** wikipedia-en: *** a spring with water temperatures above its surroundings[2] *** a natural spring with water temperature above body temperature – normally between 36.5 and 37.5 °C (97.7 and 99.5 °F)[3] *** a natural spring with warm water above body temperature[4] *** a thermal spring with water warmer than 36.7 °C (98 °F)[5][6] *** a natural spring of water greater than 21.1 °C (70 °F) (synonymous with thermal spring)[7][8][9][10] *** a natural discharge of groundwater with elevated temperatures[11] *** a type of thermal spring in which hot water is brought to the surface. The water temperature of a hot spring is usually 6.5 °C (12 °F) or more above mean air temperature.[12] Note that by this definition, thermal spring is not synonymous with the term hot spring *** a spring whose hot water is brought to the surface (synonymous with a thermal spring). The water temperature of the spring is usually 8.3 °C (15 °F) or more above the mean air temperature.[13] *** a spring with water above the core human body temperature – 36.7 °C (98 °F).[14] *** a spring with water above average ambient ground temperature,[15] a definition favored by some *** a spring with water temperatures above 50 °C (122 °F)[16] I would not want to go as far as fixing wikipedia before making a definitionin OSM So my conclusion - using the locally accepted classification is the only usable definition of hot springs. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
In what sense is volcanic heat not geothermal? Original Message From: Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com Sent: March 5, 2014 3:37:52 AM CST To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hot springs On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 12:44:40AM +0100, Henning Scholland wrote: Am 03.03.2014 23:45, schrieb Richard Z.: All together, I am not really sure if it is smart to split springs by temperature. not by temperature, which is very subjective as explained in the rationale. Where a spring is localy known as hot spring or thermal spring it should be mapped as such. I don't like this subjective tagging, because it's more then localy known as xy. Mainly it depends on temperature of water vs temperature of air. unfortunately wikipedia expressly says: There is no universally accepted definition of a hot spring. For example, one can find the phrase hot spring defined as: - a dozen of possible definitions which I won't copy here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_spring#Definitions) Should that preclude us from mapping them even though they are locally well known as hot springs? In a cold region a spring with 20°C could be known as hot spring just because all other springs are much colder. But you would agree, that no one wants to jump in there and relax ;) wanting to relax in one is not really a definition of a hot spring. So for this case you have to take care also about temp=*. we might think about an optional temperature tag but in my opinion it would be one of the more problematic tags. The temperature may not be exactly known or may be variable. People would start adding it to lakes and oceans:) But I understand your wish to classify a spring a bit more detailed. I think it would be better to use additional tags for natural=spring. Eg. termal=yes or something similar. geothermal=yes would be closer. But in a strict sense this would exclude springs with volcanically heated water. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
2014-03-05 12:36 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: I can only direct you to the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_%28geology%29 as this starts to go slightly offtopic I enjoy posting also this wikipedia reference which might be interesting in the context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_internal_heat_budget Interestingly the 47 Terawatts of thermal power arriving at the surface from the interiors of earth is just 0.03% of all superficial thermal power (because 173000 TW or 99.97 % are coming from solar radiation). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
So, if I am understanding you correctly, an onsen doesn't necessarily have water available, but, if water is available, it must be from a hot spring? If onsen doesn't necessarily imply the presence of a hot spring, then I don't think the English translation in the wiki should translate the term as hot spring. Also, I was under the impression that the standard in OSM was to use British terminology in tags. Original Message From: Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com Sent: March 5, 2014 10:56:57 AM CST To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hot springs Hello, * does onsen water always come from natural hot springs? Yes. The water of onsen bathing amenity is from always natural. And in precise, it is upper 25'C and must have mineral element. (by law) Not from natural water bathing amenity, it must be called Sento (bath house, rough meaning Bath with coin/cheap fee). In fact, some onsen amenity has no water for their amenity. But they are called as onsen. Such as sand bath, or steam bath (sauna). BTW their mutual function is the warmth or water is from natural. * there are many natural, undelopped hot springs in Japan. Are those also called onsen? In the case of. The common, so called, and main meaning of onsen is targeted to represent bathing amenity. By JP law, very natural hot spring with mineral is classified as... * under 25'C water: Kousen (mineral spring) * upper 25'C water: Onsen (hot spring) I could propose following tag combinations to represent onsen amenity, but certainly I think they are not your concern ;) Maybe it is better with another proposal, I would like to hear other country's situation. * Onsen Hotel tourism=hotel (or something other, BB) leisure=onsen * Onsen without lodging amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen * Hotel with Onsen, can use onsen as public_bath also (Higaeri Onsen in Japanese) tourism=hotel (or something other, BB) amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen * Sento (bathing amenity using water not from hot spring) amenity=public_bath Cheers. 2014-03-05 18:45 GMT+09:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 10:06:45AM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out I see :) So I prefer to switch the icon from Onsen icon ♨ to another ones. it ♨ maybe to use for leisure/amenity scheme. another proposal was to use the same symbol as for normal springs in a red color. I can add a leisure=onsen to the proposal, which would take the onsen symbol. But I need clarification regarding the meaning of the word onsen : * does onsen water always come from natural hot springs? * there are many natural, undelopped hot springs in Japan. Are those also called onsen? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Am 05/mar/2014 um 17:56 schrieb Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com: The water of onsen bathing amenity is from always natural. And in precise, it is upper 25'C and must have mineral element. (by law) Not from natural water bathing amenity, it must be called Sento (bath house, rough meaning Bath with coin/cheap fee). In fact, some onsen amenity has no water for their amenity. But they are called as onsen. Such as sand bath, or steam bath (sauna). BTW their mutual function is the warmth or water is from natural. * there are many natural, undelopped hot springs in Japan. Are those also called onsen? In the case of. The common, so called, and main meaning of onsen is targeted to represent bathing amenity. By JP law, very natural hot spring with mineral is classified as... * under 25'C water: Kousen (mineral spring) * upper 25'C water: Onsen (hot spring) I could propose following tag combinations to represent onsen amenity, but certainly I think they are not your concern ;) Maybe it is better with another proposal, I would like to hear other country's situation. * Onsen Hotel tourism=hotel (or something other, BB) leisure=onsen * Onsen without lodging amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen * Hotel with Onsen, can use onsen as public_bath also (Higaeri Onsen in Japanese) tourism=hotel (or something other, BB) amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen * Sento (bathing amenity using water not from hot spring) amenity=public_bath what about using amenity=public_bath and then subtype to have specific values according to your legislation and standards, sth. like bath:type=onsen / sento etc. or maybe jp:onsen to give a hint that it is not in English cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 09:24:24AM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: In what sense is volcanic heat not geothermal? In some sense you could argue that volcanos are also heated by geothermal heat but the details are very different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_(geology)#Heat_sources Heat sources Temperature within the Earth increases with depth. Highly viscous or partially molten rock at temperatures between 650 to 1,200 °C (1,200 to 2,200 °F) is postulated to exist everywhere beneath the Earth's surface at depths of 80 to 100 kilometres (50 to 60 mi)[citation needed], and the temperature at the Earth's inner core/outer core boundary, around 3,500 kilometres (2,200 mi) deep, is estimated to be 5650 ± 600 kelvins.[6][7] The heat content of the Earth is 1031 joules.[1] Much of the heat is created by decay of naturally radioactive elements. An estimated 45 to 90 percent of the heat escaping from the Earth originates from radioactive decay of elements mainly located in the mantle.[4][8][9] Heat of impact and compression released during the original formation of the Earth by accretion of in-falling meteorites. Heat released as abundant heavy metals (iron, nickel, copper) descended to the Earth's core. Latent heat released as the liquid outer core crystallizes at the inner core boundary. Heat may be generated by tidal force on the Earth as it rotates; since rock cannot flow as readily as water it compresses and distorts, generating heat. There is no reputable science to suggest that any significant heat may be created by electromagnetic effects of the magnetic fields involved in Earth's magnetic field, as suggested by some contemporary folk theories. The radiogenic heat from the decay of 238U and 232Th are now the major contributors to the earth's internal heat budget. Present-day major heat-producing isotopes[10] Isotope Heat release [W/kg isotope] Half-life [years] Mean mantle concentration [kg isotope/kg mantle] Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 01:56:57AM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: * Onsen without lodging amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen so in this combination which object would you tag with leisure=onsen, the water pool? The same object which is also tagged with public_bath? Looking at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_bath the page could use some more detail. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
I don't see anything in that definition that says the heat from within the earth has to be a minimum distance below the surface in order to be classed as geothermal. Volcanism is a subset of geothermal, where the hot material is particularly close to the surface. Original Message From: Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com Sent: March 5, 2014 12:08:26 PM CST To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hot springs On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 09:24:24AM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: In what sense is volcanic heat not geothermal? In some sense you could argue that volcanos are also heated by geothermal heat but the details are very different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_(geology)#Heat_sources Heat sources Temperature within the Earth increases with depth. Highly viscous or partially molten rock at temperatures between 650 to 1,200 °C (1,200 to 2,200 °F) is postulated to exist everywhere beneath the Earth's surface at depths of 80 to 100 kilometres (50 to 60 mi)[citation needed], and the temperature at the Earth's inner core/outer core boundary, around 3,500 kilometres (2,200 mi) deep, is estimated to be 5650 ± 600 kelvins.[6][7] The heat content of the Earth is 1031 joules.[1] Much of the heat is created by decay of naturally radioactive elements. An estimated 45 to 90 percent of the heat escaping from the Earth originates from radioactive decay of elements mainly located in the mantle.[4][8][9] Heat of impact and compression released during the original formation of the Earth by accretion of in-falling meteorites. Heat released as abundant heavy metals (iron, nickel, copper) descended to the Earth's core. Latent heat released as the liquid outer core crystallizes at the inner core boundary. Heat may be generated by tidal force on the Earth as it rotates; since rock cannot flow as readily as water it compresses and distorts, generating heat. There is no reputable science to suggest that any significant heat may be created by electromagnetic effects of the magnetic fields involved in Earth's magnetic field, as suggested by some contemporary folk theories. The radiogenic heat from the decay of 238U and 232Th are now the major contributors to the earth's internal heat budget. Present-day major heat-producing isotopes[10] Isotope Heat release [W/kg isotope] Half-life [years] Mean mantle concentration [kg isotope/kg mantle] Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 12:58:51PM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: I don't see anything in that definition that says the heat from within the earth has to be a minimum distance below the surface in order to be classed as geothermal. Volcanism is a subset of geothermal, where the hot material is particularly close to the surface. sometimes it makes sense to distinguish whether something is identical or a subset of something. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Hi Richard, Am 05.03.2014 21:50, schrieb Richard Z.: On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 12:58:51PM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: I don't see anything in that definition that says the heat from within the earth has to be a minimum distance below the surface in order to be classed as geothermal. Volcanism is a subset of geothermal, where the hot material is particularly close to the surface. sometimes it makes sense to distinguish whether something is identical or a subset of something. That's true - but a very bad style for osm tagging, if you propose to use the superset's name (geothermal) for the superset MINUS the subset, so basically you propose to use the superset's name for a subset. Reminds me at the ugly natural=tree issue some time ago, where originally natural=tree referred to outstanding, landmark or important trees, which lead to trouble when other mappers started to map common trees even in groups of trees or small forests one by one. By the way: is it volcanic if and only if it's breaking through the surface, or even in a geysir, or even where it's known to be some ten meters below the surface? Where it get's volcanic? Therefore I disagree about using geothermal for the subset not containing volcanic activity. Use deep-earth-heat or whatever term for a subset, or define a specialized subtag for the subsets (volcanic, ...(non-volcanic?), (others?)). regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 07:35:02AM +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote: Speaking as a chemist, the term sulfuric would imply strong acidity as in sulfuric acid. What you're looking for I believe is a term to indicate if the water smells bad or not. Many hot springs have a rotten egg smell lent to the water by dissolved hydrogen sulfide (H2S), some of which escapes into the atmosphere to assault one's nose. This water would also be acidic but not to the same degree as sulfuric suggests. Perhaps sulfide=yes/no or sulfurous=yes/no would work better. thanks for the input. I am not aware of many sulfurous hot springs in Europe, one of them is on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methana peninsula. Do you think characterising that as sulfurous would be fine? I think we need something a main characteristic for layman usage and something for the detailed properties. I am not yet sure if these should be combined in one (multivalued) tag or done in separate tags. Also, I like the term water_characteristic or something similar. A more general, because not limited to water, but less common term might be effluent_characteristic. This would cover hot springs that involve mud, steam, or other stuff coming out of the ground. If water only, then effluent_characteristic=water or effluent_characteristic=water+steam It might even be extended to include hydrogen sulfide: effluent_characteristic=water+sulfide effluent_characteristic might be a very good idea to map all kinds of fluid material. I was even thinking reusing it to characterise lava streams but then we would need a separate tag for solid lava fields, probably not so good. So maybe water_characteristic which could be used for everything from mudpots to saltwater in the ocean. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
(and in case anyone's not aware) sulfur would be sulphur in British English. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 03:50:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: Hi, +1 to Tobias. I feel it needs clarification for this tag scope. I think it was leisure=hot_spring once, and switched to natural=hot_spring. exactly. So the main purpose of this scheme is now natural. Like to represent a geyser or some natural features, it seems. So it is better to make another tag scheme to represent Onsen ♨ bathing facility. as you mentioned we already have various methods to map bathing facilities, thanks for pointing out leisure=public_bath. So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out + natural=water - if there is a pool of water around it + water_characteristic - attached to both spring and water + all other related facilities mapped with their own well known tags such as tourism=attraction, amenity=public_bath, leisure=beach_resort, natural=beach, sport=swimming .. please add those which I have forgotten. Some of those tags, like swimming need improvement which is independent from this proposal. water_characteristic is intended to be reusable for natural=spring and all waterways and other water bodies. Many Japanese rural tourism=hotel has Onsen amenity. # Some Japanese mappers use amenity=public_bath to represent Sento. # Sento is like a spa, but more daily used amenity. # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sent%C5%8D In my opinion, to represent a Onsen Hotel, e.g. tourism=hotel amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen or some combination. (yes, this is very draft!) natural=hot_spring is for springs of natural origin. A leisure=onsen is orthogonal to this so those could be easily combined if the onsen is from a natural source. Otherwise you would have just leisure=onsen. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 03.03.2014 23:45, schrieb Richard Z.: All together, I am not really sure if it is smart to split springs by temperature. not by temperature, which is very subjective as explained in the rationale. Where a spring is localy known as hot spring or thermal spring it should be mapped as such. I don't like this subjective tagging, because it's more then localy known as xy. Mainly it depends on temperature of water vs temperature of air. In a cold region a spring with 20°C could be known as hot spring just because all other springs are much colder. But you would agree, that no one wants to jump in there and relax ;) So for this case you have to take care also about temp=*. But I understand your wish to classify a spring a bit more detailed. I think it would be better to use additional tags for natural=spring. Eg. termal=yes or something similar. Henning -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTFmVoAAoJEPFgsWC7jOeTgDkIAKyS1EXq9IVWixQcP0IuzvVB aBrsNtSNxq+qORnCUWog36+fyk1RAjuN1GqLtPoECmdvkSBl4XCVdCeZydwJmD4n 3rmm/e+j6pr/SyBV/sy4lWhFymnvB5N+Lfl+op1gsDQSlMNM7OCUoP4yQvB/e+Hu jWP4D5Nbq4ohs+y2xHUqy10KorSBIzaUUe9QUELCMMFa6qWw3To+dtpKCrbXWTbs 687uLHIKYJ98xaK2l9KZXUzq4ySDho4wlV50USKqsvTGT8J8Z7j2DNVynAXlzcRC tbeEkmD5dlAmAD6YsuptNx7nnHS+DmJA/T7WRzax/TTQ8fFYp6OCpRb91NyDlKQ= =FWI9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out I see :) So I prefer to switch the icon from Onsen icon ♨ to another ones. it ♨ maybe to use for leisure/amenity scheme. 2014-03-04 21:10 GMT+09:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 03:50:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: Hi, +1 to Tobias. I feel it needs clarification for this tag scope. I think it was leisure=hot_spring once, and switched to natural=hot_spring. exactly. So the main purpose of this scheme is now natural. Like to represent a geyser or some natural features, it seems. So it is better to make another tag scheme to represent Onsen ♨ bathing facility. as you mentioned we already have various methods to map bathing facilities, thanks for pointing out leisure=public_bath. So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out + natural=water - if there is a pool of water around it + water_characteristic - attached to both spring and water + all other related facilities mapped with their own well known tags such as tourism=attraction, amenity=public_bath, leisure=beach_resort, natural=beach, sport=swimming .. please add those which I have forgotten. Some of those tags, like swimming need improvement which is independent from this proposal. water_characteristic is intended to be reusable for natural=spring and all waterways and other water bodies. Many Japanese rural tourism=hotel has Onsen amenity. # Some Japanese mappers use amenity=public_bath to represent Sento. # Sento is like a spa, but more daily used amenity. # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sent%C5%8D In my opinion, to represent a Onsen Hotel, e.g. tourism=hotel amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen or some combination. (yes, this is very draft!) natural=hot_spring is for springs of natural origin. A leisure=onsen is orthogonal to this so those could be easily combined if the onsen is from a natural source. Otherwise you would have just leisure=onsen. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
The onsen icon (♨) is commonly used all over Japan (of course), and is a great icon (a hot bath with steam rising out) to represent a place to get a hot natural bath vs a natural park's hot-spring. Onsen always means naturally sourced hot water as well, vs a bathhouse (amenity=spa? showers?), which merely heats up the water with a boiler for you to use. amenity=hot_spring_bath might be a good differentiation, because ♨ = bath Javbw On Mar 5, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out I see :) So I prefer to switch the icon from Onsen icon ♨ to another ones. it ♨ maybe to use for leisure/amenity scheme. 2014-03-04 21:10 GMT+09:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 03:50:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: Hi, +1 to Tobias. I feel it needs clarification for this tag scope. I think it was leisure=hot_spring once, and switched to natural=hot_spring. exactly. So the main purpose of this scheme is now natural. Like to represent a geyser or some natural features, it seems. So it is better to make another tag scheme to represent Onsen ♨ bathing facility. as you mentioned we already have various methods to map bathing facilities, thanks for pointing out leisure=public_bath. So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out + natural=water - if there is a pool of water around it + water_characteristic - attached to both spring and water + all other related facilities mapped with their own well known tags such as tourism=attraction, amenity=public_bath, leisure=beach_resort, natural=beach, sport=swimming .. please add those which I have forgotten. Some of those tags, like swimming need improvement which is independent from this proposal. water_characteristic is intended to be reusable for natural=spring and all waterways and other water bodies. Many Japanese rural tourism=hotel has Onsen amenity. # Some Japanese mappers use amenity=public_bath to represent Sento. # Sento is like a spa, but more daily used amenity. # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sent%C5%8D In my opinion, to represent a Onsen Hotel, e.g. tourism=hotel amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen or some combination. (yes, this is very draft!) natural=hot_spring is for springs of natural origin. A leisure=onsen is orthogonal to this so those could be easily combined if the onsen is from a natural source. Otherwise you would have just leisure=onsen. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
PS: the onsen icon (♨) is always for an amenity - a hotel or resort that offers a hot spring bath, or a purpose-built, stand alone structure (crude or ornate) just to provide a bathing experience - but it is not just a hole in the ground with a rope around it. It is always an amenity offered by a business, similar to a lap swimming pool vs a pond, or a fire hydrant vs a spring. Javbw On Mar 5, 2014, at 10:13 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: The onsen icon (♨) is commonly used all over Japan (of course), and is a great icon (a hot bath with steam rising out) to represent a place to get a hot natural bath vs a natural park's hot-spring. Onsen always means naturally sourced hot water as well, vs a bathhouse (amenity=spa? showers?), which merely heats up the water with a boiler for you to use. amenity=hot_spring_bath might be a good differentiation, because ♨ = bath Javbw On Mar 5, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out I see :) So I prefer to switch the icon from Onsen icon ♨ to another ones. it ♨ maybe to use for leisure/amenity scheme. 2014-03-04 21:10 GMT+09:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 03:50:30PM +0900, Satoshi IIDA wrote: Hi, +1 to Tobias. I feel it needs clarification for this tag scope. I think it was leisure=hot_spring once, and switched to natural=hot_spring. exactly. So the main purpose of this scheme is now natural. Like to represent a geyser or some natural features, it seems. So it is better to make another tag scheme to represent Onsen ♨ bathing facility. as you mentioned we already have various methods to map bathing facilities, thanks for pointing out leisure=public_bath. So the idea is to have natural=hot_spring - the hole in earth where hot water is comming out + natural=water - if there is a pool of water around it + water_characteristic - attached to both spring and water + all other related facilities mapped with their own well known tags such as tourism=attraction, amenity=public_bath, leisure=beach_resort, natural=beach, sport=swimming .. please add those which I have forgotten. Some of those tags, like swimming need improvement which is independent from this proposal. water_characteristic is intended to be reusable for natural=spring and all waterways and other water bodies. Many Japanese rural tourism=hotel has Onsen amenity. # Some Japanese mappers use amenity=public_bath to represent Sento. # Sento is like a spa, but more daily used amenity. # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sent%C5%8D In my opinion, to represent a Onsen Hotel, e.g. tourism=hotel amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen or some combination. (yes, this is very draft!) natural=hot_spring is for springs of natural origin. A leisure=onsen is orthogonal to this so those could be easily combined if the onsen is from a natural source. Otherwise you would have just leisure=onsen. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Dear Richard, thanks for your initiative. I agree with your arguments why a specific tag natural=hot_spring is better than natural=spring and temp=*. It is something different. Not sure about the word consistence which looks strange to me (but I'm not native). And also not very sure about the values: E.g. mineral - every spring contains minerals, the interesting point is which and how much. sulfuric - just a special case of mineral - why pick this one and not the others Just asking, not being specialist for hot_springs so cannot bring a solution. But would like to have them als on OSM, so I can go and jump in if I happen to drive by, it is so relaxing!!! cheers, nounours77 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On 03.03.2014 13:53, nounours77 wrote: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Dear Richard, thanks for your initiative. I agree with your arguments why a specific tag natural=hot_spring is better than natural=spring and temp=*. It is something different. Not sure about the word consistence which looks strange to me (but I'm not native). And also not very sure about the values: E.g. mineral - every spring contains minerals, the interesting point is which and how much. sulfuric - just a special case of mineral - why pick this one and not the others Just asking, not being specialist for hot_springs so cannot bring a solution. But would like to have them als on OSM, so I can go and jump in if I happen to drive by, it is so relaxing!!! Well, think it might get tricky. I know places where you will find several springs right next to each other. Some are hot, some are warm and some are cold. All have different contents not depending on the temperature. If you it is save to take a bath or even drink the water does not really depend on the temperature either. Even in hot places/areas it might get cold at night and I remember it was fun bathing in ~45°C hot water in Africa at midnight though the air temperature was below 15°C. Another point is the use of sports=swimming which is way to general defined so far and should not be used for every places where you can go swimming but for places with some infrastructure. Well, please think about adding water=* and removing sports=swimming from the part about lakes/ponds. All together, I am not really sure if it is smart to split springs by temperature. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 01:29:06PM +, Dan S wrote: 2014-03-03 12:53 GMT+00:00 nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Dear Richard, thanks for your initiative. I agree with your arguments why a specific tag natural=hot_spring is better than natural=spring and temp=*. It is something different. Not sure about the word consistence which looks strange to me (but I'm not native). consistence is not standard English. You probably don't mean consistency either. content? seems I am am bit archaic with my English. Content, composition, characteristics. Not required to be a detailed chemical analysis, a practical description like mud, saltwater, freshwater, sulfuric water, mineral water. Possibly multivalued with a list of the main minerals where notable. Meanwhile I thought the same tag should be good to characterise the water quality of the oceans, the Dead sea, the Azov sea (if it still exists) and freshwater... would be a pitty not to have this. So perhaps water_characteristics ? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Consistence is a standard English word, but a relatively uncommon one, compared to consistency. It would be good to tag any hot springs that are caustic enough that you wouldn't want skin contact, whether due to acidity or alkalinity. Original Message From: Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com Sent: March 3, 2014 1:42:20 PM CST To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hot springs On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 01:29:06PM +, Dan S wrote: 2014-03-03 12:53 GMT+00:00 nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Dear Richard, thanks for your initiative. I agree with your arguments why a specific tag natural=hot_spring is better than natural=spring and temp=*. It is something different. Not sure about the word consistence which looks strange to me (but I'm not native). consistence is not standard English. You probably don't mean consistency either. content? seems I am am bit archaic with my English. Content, composition, characteristics. Not required to be a detailed chemical analysis, a practical description like mud, saltwater, freshwater, sulfuric water, mineral water. Possibly multivalued with a list of the main minerals where notable. Meanwhile I thought the same tag should be good to characterise the water quality of the oceans, the Dead sea, the Azov sea (if it still exists) and freshwater... would be a pitty not to have this. So perhaps water_characteristics ? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 08:14:42PM +0100, fly wrote: Well, think it might get tricky. I know places where you will find several springs right next to each other. Some are hot, some are warm and some are cold. All have different contents not depending on the temperature. that is fine. The current proposal is one natural=hot_spring for each spring (we alread have natural=spring for those which are not hot). water characteristics can be tagged per spring and per pool. Another point is the use of sports=swimming which is way to general defined so far and should not be used for every places where you can go swimming but for places with some infrastructure. current possibilities to map swimming are next to useless, that is on my list. For now sport=swimming is the only way to map anything ranging from toddler swimming, leisure swimming, skinny dipping, chunky dumping, ice swimming, competition swimming or the Ka'iwi Channel swim. Well, please think about adding water=* and removing sports=swimming from the part about lakes/ponds. not really sure what you mean with this. natural=water is clearly endorsed If there is a significant pool of water around the hot spring, use natural=water sport=swimming is not perfect but until there is something better its better than nothing - and if there ever is a better way to map swimming it should be easy enough to change. All together, I am not really sure if it is smart to split springs by temperature. not by temperature, which is very subjective as explained in the rationale. Where a spring is localy known as hot spring or thermal spring it should be mapped as such. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 01:53:48PM +0100, nounours77 wrote: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Dear Richard, thanks for your initiative. I agree with your arguments why a specific tag natural=hot_spring is better than natural=spring and temp=*. It is something different. Not sure about the word consistence which looks strange to me (but I'm not native). And also not very sure about the values: E.g. mineral - every spring contains minerals, the interesting point is which and how much. sulfuric - just a special case of mineral - why pick this one and not the others forgotten to answer this detail.. sulfuric may be a special case of mineral but the difference is very characteristic. I am in favor of mapping the most characteristic water properties first and possibly more detailed chemical composition as far as known and somehow important. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Speaking as a chemist, the term sulfuric would imply strong acidity as in sulfuric acid. What you're looking for I believe is a term to indicate if the water smells bad or not. Many hot springs have a rotten egg smell lent to the water by dissolved hydrogen sulfide (H2S), some of which escapes into the atmosphere to assault one's nose. This water would also be acidic but not to the same degree as sulfuric suggests. Perhaps sulfide=yes/no or sulfurous=yes/no would work better. Also, I like the term water_characteristic or something similar. A more general, because not limited to water, but less common term might be effluent_characteristic. This would cover hot springs that involve mud, steam, or other stuff coming out of the ground. If water only, then effluent_characteristic=water or effluent_characteristic=water+steam It might even be extended to include hydrogen sulfide: effluent_characteristic=water+sulfide Regards, Dave On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:41 AM, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 01:53:48PM +0100, nounours77 wrote: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Dear Richard, thanks for your initiative. I agree with your arguments why a specific tag natural=hot_spring is better than natural=spring and temp=*. It is something different. Not sure about the word consistence which looks strange to me (but I'm not native). And also not very sure about the values: E.g. mineral - every spring contains minerals, the interesting point is which and how much. sulfuric - just a special case of mineral - why pick this one and not the others forgotten to answer this detail.. sulfuric may be a special case of mineral but the difference is very characteristic. I am in favor of mapping the most characteristic water properties first and possibly more detailed chemical composition as far as known and somehow important. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On 02.03.2014 13:58, Richard Z. wrote: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. just to clarify, among other changes I changed it from leisure= to natural= and the comments bellow the page are old comments.. There would also be a need to map bathing facilities sometimes connected with such springs, though. I assume this is no longer within the proposal's scope after the key switch? On a related note, can anyone clarify what exactly the ♨ symbol still mentioned in the proposal refers to exactly? Is it about hot springs in general or specifically about bathing facilities? Wikipedia (en) redirects the character to the Onsen page. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
Hi, +1 to Tobias. I feel it needs clarification for this tag scope. I think it was leisure=hot_spring once, and switched to natural=hot_spring. So the main purpose of this scheme is now natural. Like to represent a geyser or some natural features, it seems. So it is better to make another tag scheme to represent Onsen ♨ bathing facility. Many Japanese rural tourism=hotel has Onsen amenity. And there is amenity=public_bath already. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_bath # Some Japanese mappers use amenity=public_bath to represent Sento. # Sento is like a spa, but more daily used amenity. # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sent%C5%8D In my opinion, to represent a Onsen Hotel, e.g. tourism=hotel amenity=public_bath leisure=onsen or some combination. (yes, this is very draft!) Cheers. 2014-03-04 10:21 GMT+09:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 02.03.2014 13:58, Richard Z. wrote: I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. just to clarify, among other changes I changed it from leisure= to natural= and the comments bellow the page are old comments.. There would also be a need to map bathing facilities sometimes connected with such springs, though. I assume this is no longer within the proposal's scope after the key switch? On a related note, can anyone clarify what exactly the ♨ symbol still mentioned in the proposal refers to exactly? Is it about hot springs in general or specifically about bathing facilities? Wikipedia (en) redirects the character to the Onsen page. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Hot springs
Hi, I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hot springs
On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 01:28:28PM +0100, Richard Z. wrote: Hi, I have significantly changed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hot_Spring with the intention to revive the proposal - thanks for any comments and enhancments. just to clarify, among other changes I changed it from leisure= to natural= and the comments bellow the page are old comments.. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
