Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
The German page for track [1] clearly states that the difference between a track and a unclassified road is in the usage. When it is used for forestry of by farmers (has to be signed as such if I understand it correctly), it's a track, no matter the surface. They do not mention highway=service anywhere in the text. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dtrack ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
sent from a phone Am 09.07.2015 um 01:57 schrieb John Willis jo...@mac.com: In summary - it costs us nothing to treat these as a service road - and it gets us more detail at high zooms and more accurately reflects the road system as it exists - where the tracks are and aren't, and they disappear at lower zoom levels - as they should. I may be wrong, but I've always seen (rural) service roads as (typically relatively short) access ways which lead to a particular place like a technical plant (watertreatment, power/telco something), some business (restaurant etc) and not beyond. Ways with a lot of crossings/bifurcations won't be service roads because they will serve some collecting/distribution/through traffic function that goes beyond access to one or two sites. I think I'd tag your ways as unclassified lanes=1 if they were used by locals to get from one village to the other and were publicly accessible. When their only purpose is access to fields/forest (and relatively short distances) I'd use track appropriate tracktype and surface tags. If the distances get very long I'd again use unclassified. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On Jul 9, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I may be wrong, but I've always seen (rural) service roads as (typically relatively short) access ways I normally do too. But Alleys are sometimes a kilometer long, paralleling the major road. This idea is what led me to Alley at first. Ways with a lot of crossings/bifurcations won't be service roads because they will serve some collecting/distribution/through traffic function that goes beyond access to one or two sites. This is the hard part of what I’m trying to explain.. Maybe this occurs in Europe too, but having travelled all over California - driving, biking, trekking - through several hundred miles of tracks through the mountains, on several hundred calls to repair computers in rural areas with farms and ranches - I have never seen anything like the tangle of roads Japan generates - nor the condition the more unimportant roads are kept at. I imagine the easiest way to explain this would be the tangle of residential roads that occurs in old neighborhoods. there is usually one or two unclassified streets that are the main route through the collection of houses, leading to a larger arterial road. and if you really wanted to, you could drive only on the residential roads through the neighborhood, but it would be a total waste of time - as they make you go longer, and keep leading back and crossing the unclassified road over and over. Some may lead off to access the houses on a hill - but there is no reason to go up the hill and back down because there is nothing there besides houses. These roads have a similar density and distribution - but what they access is rice, corn, banboo, and cedar trees. There occasionally is a building, a tower, or a farmer’s house, but for the most part it is a tangle of roads you would never want to be directed down, nor use for “cutting through” because you would be parallel to a better road 200m away or you would keep coming back to a trunk road at intersections with no no safe way to enter traffic. They allow access to the tracks and paths, and link everything back to the unclassified roads, which in turn lad to the larger roads. In rare cases, like my biking example, you might want to traverse the long way through, but seeing them as a bunch of service roads / tracks lets you know exactly what roads are what. Here is a link to the google maps of my area, the area I traversed between towns. many of the rendered roads should be unclassified, but some of them should be classified as a smaller service=rural. A lot of them are tracks as well. the spread of paved roads is enormous, and tangled to hell. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4266157,139.1978983,6412m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4266157,139.1978983,6412m/data=!3m1!1e3 here is an area I was mapping a while ago: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4447783,139.2111792,1603m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4424998,139.2111363,1603m/data=!3m1!1e3 Which of those is a good road to use? the second choice? and what is a tiny road you would curse being routed down, and what is a track? http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4437/139.2109 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4437/139.2109 this area in particular is a good example of why some kind of service=rural would be useful. I really trust your guys opinion - but this is something I have never seen in America. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Oh, and it's not really an alley, so I wouldn't tag it as such. A On 08/07/2015, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. I change the tags when the road actually becomes a track (two lines of worn dirt where the tractor wheels go). I think it's an accurate representation, and it renders nicely in most views too. Andrew On 08/07/2015, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: On 7/8/2015 1:25 AM, johnw wrote: [trimmed] The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections ... lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. From what you've said about the purpose, it sounds like highway=track. The conditions (paved or not, etc) would then dictate the tracktype and other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 7/8/2015 2:44 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
I agree, but I based my choice on the description in the wiki. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice On 08/07/2015, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: On 7/8/2015 2:44 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Rural Alley?
I live in Japan, where most of the flat land is covered in extremely mixed use cities and farm fields. Being an old asian country, there are tons and tons of old windy local roads that go everywhere, and being a first wold country, also a modern roadway system meant for cars. The modern roadway system cuts through the old roads, so there are often little tiny paved, public roads that lead off everywhere. The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections which follow the natural valleys and hills (as opposed to the large farming fields in the US), and the unclassified roads in the area end up being the only useful local roads, as they are the only ones that go somewhere directly, or don’t lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. Since there is usually no housing (or a single farm house for a valley), it isn’t residential - there are no residents. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. This also is not about some logging track that disappears into the mountains, but roads that connect these tracks and paths to the unclassified roads. If this was in a city, I would use Alley - narrow and inconvenient roads meant just for extremely local access, and usually not used for routing, even in the neighborhood they are in - and not recommended for travellers trying to go through the area. So I have been using Alley - It is the only road that sits between residential and track. these farm roads meet every one of the Alley definitions - except for the parallel nature of alleys in very rural settings. These are often times a kilometer or so long - but they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. Rendering them as residential roads is very detrimental to the map - yes it does cause needless clutter - but that doesn’t bother me so much, though it is very difficult to tell what actually is the local “through” road. The major issues is, like an alley, they are narrow, and serve no other purpose than local access. It also blacklists these roads for all but local access by the routing engine, so you don’t end up on a road wide enough to just barely pass a bicyclist. Farmers use small little trucks just over a meter wide - they can go easily where a car or a delivery van would be concerned about oncoming traffic. As a user of Apple Maps and Google Maps in Japan - Japan’s road network classifications do not translate perfectly into western ideas - so the directions send me down very narrow yet paved and publicly accessible roads that I curse the map makers for allowing to be used for routing. It’s more than width - it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. These cover Japan like cobwebs in the rural areas, and are seemingly one level below residential or unclassified, and similarly above “track” Japanese suburban: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3414/139.1660 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3414/139.1660 Japanese Rural, with a motorway and a train line cutting through. It’s not complete, but it gives you an idea. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.7957/140.3560 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.7957/140.3560 note the “unclassified” roads everywhere around this section. half of these are Tracks, yet to be properly tagged after an import 3-5 years ago. I’m cleaning up the area around Japan’s biggest Airport. Using “Alley” in this way has given me good results, and I would like to make it more official. Thoughts? Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. I change the tags when the road actually becomes a track (two lines of worn dirt where the tractor wheels go). I think it's an accurate representation, and it renders nicely in most views too. Andrew On 08/07/2015, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: On 7/8/2015 1:25 AM, johnw wrote: [trimmed] The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections ... lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. From what you've said about the purpose, it sounds like highway=track. The conditions (paved or not, etc) would then dictate the tracktype and other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 7/8/2015 1:25 AM, johnw wrote: [trimmed] The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections ... lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. From what you've said about the purpose, it sounds like highway=track. The conditions (paved or not, etc) would then dictate the tracktype and other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. I can get behind that. On Jul 8, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. This is vey confusing to me. I understood it before the big hullabaloo over the track classification system change, where track Grade 1 and Residential / service / driveway begins now really confusing. Grade 3 roads (usually doubletrack with grass growing down the middle) is easy. Here, tell me what you think: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 here is an intersection where a grade3 track meats a rice service road. in the distance, you cans see the unclassified road to the east. They go nowhere except back to the unclassified road. But it is a paved and maintained public road with retaining walls and guardrails where there is a drain ditch. To me, tagging these as track muddies track really badly. they plainly are not tracks. I have ridden abandoned roads that are now tracks with asphalt, and I have driven maintained unclassified and residential roads which are compacted gravel. what would you suggest Paul? Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Then why did they keep track+level1+paved at all? It's like calling it a motorway level 9. Its shoehorned into somewhere it doesn't belong. These roads may have a similar purpose - local access - but the grade of the road is completely out of the category I would ever call a track. There are so many implied things with road classifications - i know they can all be described by other tags (surface, width, max speed) but if i say the word freeway parkway alley lane track - all of them bring different things to your mind. Categorizing them as a track - and rendering them as a track - seems to be in error, even if track grade1 describes the surface well, it does not capture the maintenance and expected conditions of the road correctly IMO. This is especially true with a valley full of actual tracks - and one of these little roads through/around. It is not the same as all the tracks in the area. I would suggest a new value of service=* to further define these roads. Just as Alley isn't a track nor a residential road - these are neither as well. Javbw On Jul 8, 2015, at 8:04 PM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
I have seen some people insist that highway=track only be used if the landuse Is farmland, but not if the land is covered by bushes or trees because no cultivation is taking place. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 8, 2015 6:06:21 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2015, at 8:03 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: very rough construction Most of these are in very good condition, comparable to the residential or unclassified roads. They are well made and well maintained, besides the summer overgrowth that grows too fast to cut back in some places (this even affects secondary and primary roads in rural areas). The issue is the narrow nature, destination access, and uselessness in routing - which is why I compared them to Alleys. If a Navi told me to turn down an alley or a rural farm access road because it shaved 30 seconds off the theoretical time but was a pain in the ass to navigate, id be cursing the navi either way. And if i was biking from village to village, knowing which were actual tracks and which were these nice paved roads would be very useful - i could choose to cut my way across a region with many many little roads rather than get killed on a primary with no sidewalks and large trucks zooming by. In summary - it costs us nothing to treat these as a service road - and it gets us more detail at high zooms and more accurately reflects the road system as it exists - where the tracks are and aren't, and they disappear at lower zoom levels - as they should. Putting them in track or unclassified similarly seems to make the data and the map worse. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2015, at 6:03 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I have seen some people insist that highway=track only be used if the landuse Is farmland, but not if the land is covered by bushes or trees because no cultivation is taking place. That is weird as hell. These roads go everywhere - through little patches of cedar forests and bamboo stands to reach the next field, in (very tiny) tunnels and on bridges under/over new train lines and motorways built to preserve farmers local access to fields when the new line cut through everything. I would say 20% of all motorway bridges and 90% of tunnels under the motorways in rural areas are for these 1 lane famers access your lands roads. Its just that with the topography of Japan, they've crammed fields into every conceivable little place. The example I linked to is the most straight forward. This is besides the tunnels and bridges a local person would use to move around the town, let alone for primary/trunk roads These then *lead to* the tracks that access individual fields /orchards / plantings. I think service=rural would be a good choice. Small, narrow, usually paved roads that provide local access to fields, stands, and otherwise (mostly) uninhabited groups of lands. Used by local landowners to access the tracks or paths that access the sub-divisions of a field, or lead to other service=rural roads. Javbw -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 8, 2015 6:06:21 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
I looked at that street view. To me, the way ahead (slightly to the left) is highway=track. The roads to the left, right and behind are highway=service. A On 8 July 2015 at 19:27, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. I can get behind that. On Jul 8, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. This is vey confusing to me. I understood it before the big hullabaloo over the track classification system change, where track Grade 1 and Residential / service / driveway begins now really confusing. Grade 3 roads (usually doubletrack with grass growing down the middle) is easy. Here, tell me what you think: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 here is an intersection where a grade3 track meats a rice service road. in the distance, you cans see the unclassified road to the east. They go nowhere except back to the unclassified road. But it is a paved and maintained public road with retaining walls and guardrails where there is a drain ditch. To me, tagging these as track muddies track really badly. they plainly are not tracks. I have ridden abandoned roads that are now tracks with asphalt, and I have driven maintained unclassified and residential roads which are compacted gravel. what would you suggest Paul? Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: highway=track Yes, it is where a grade 3(?) track meets the service roads. ^_^ Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 9/07/2015 7:03 AM, John Willis wrote: Then why did they keep track+level1+paved at all? It's like calling it a motorway level 9. Its shoehorned into somewhere it doesn't belong. These roads may have a similar purpose - local access - but the grade of the road is completely out of the category I would ever call a track. There are so many implied things with road classifications - i know they can all be described by other tags (surface, width, max speed) but if i say the word freeway parkway alley lane track - all of them bring different things to your mind. For me A motorway has a standard of construction (width of lanes, verge width) that clearly distinguish it from say a residential street. A track has a very rough construction/design for a simply purpose. They may be in park lands, forestry areas. They usually provide maintenance access. An alley is always in a hi population area (CBD, residential areas for example). And they always abut small properties usually to provide access to those properties. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
