Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique / subtags

[Thilo Haug]

shop=car, car_repair, car_parts
is a good example, if you compare it with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle
see taginfo for combinations :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/motorcycle%3Arepair#combinations

You're more flexible to tag shops that offer different services
(such as also repairing other types of vehicles in this example)
if you just use the "main" purpose of the shop for the shop=* tag
and then the appropriate subkeys.
 

Am 01.09.2017 um 20:31 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> Can we apply this criteria/formula/checklist  to the following group
> of tags and see whether the have to be changed into subtags ?
>
> shop=clothes, boutique
> shop=supermarket, deli, convenience
> man_made/power=tower, mast, pole, flag_pole
> building=residential, house, semi-detached, apartment, villa
> shop=car, car_repair, car_parts, tire
>
> * is having a wikipedia page in 10 or more languages a criteria ? apparently 
> no
> * is having a large number of objects tagged like that in OSM a
> criteria ? apparently no
> * is knowing how many people have searched for each of those
> individual items a criteria ? Don't know, wouldn't know how we can
> count that.
>
> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
>> W dniu 01.09.2017 o 17:51, Marc Gemis pisze:
>>
>>> So no, this group is not really representative for the community as a
>>> whole.
>>
>> But what is representative? And what about standardization? I would be happy
>> if we find a way to communicate things with wider community, but this is
>> what we have now. As I said - one can always disagree and use "any tag you
>> like" rule and that's OK for me. Standardization does not mean anybody
>> enforcing, just creating guidelines - and this is what we try to do.
>>
>> --
>> "Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O.
>> Muzalyev]
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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Mobil: +49 177 3185856
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[José G Moya Y .]

Phil said:

>> Supermarkets for example will have a fresh meat >> counter, fresh fish
counter which is important stuff >>when you are camping.

Oh, really? Then I have to retag everyting.

Here in Spain we call "supermarket" a medium-sized self-service store,
while we call "convenience store" a 24/7 (or at least 14/7) small to medium
store where you can buy 25%-150% overprized last-resource goods. In
Spanish, both terms are translations from English, and "convenience store"
is a legal category.

A countryside Spanish "supermarket" will have a fresh grocery counter but meat
will be freezed, while a Spanish "convenience store" will have no grocery
or meat at all. (If you are camping in countryside Spain, you have to wait
for the weekly fish truck if you want fish).

(I think this example will be useful for the cultural difference between
boutique and fashion).

Phil (trigpoint)

El 2/9/2017 0:56, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> escribió:

> On 02-Sep-17 04:31 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
>> Is ignoring what the community did so far, a guideline ? People have
>> used the tag boutique. So why cannot we take this practice and use
>> that as the guideline ? Why change the currently used tags, causing a
>> cost of all involved parties ?
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
>> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>>
>
> I lack the understanding of what is meant by 'boutique' and 'fashion'.
>
> I think the terms could be used for a very wide variety of features.
>
> The tag shop=cloths I understand and don't see any confusion over it.
>
> If 'fashion' simply means cloths with some added parameters then I would
> think it should be a sub tag. The same for 'boutique'.
>
> If they mean something different from cloths .. then what are they? And I
> don't want terms like - more expensive, finer materials, better design -
> these are either subjective and/or sub tags.
>
> Fuel stations that do not sell diesel are not given a separate main tag -
> they get a sub tag.
> And yes some things in OSM have been given main tags where, with more
> organisation, they could have been better with sub tags. 'Path' and
> footpath spring to mind.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Rafael Avila Coya]

No. It means boutique could be moved to:

shop=clothes
clothes=boutique

In fact, the key clothes=* has clothes=fashion already, so we can add 
clothes=boutique too. 

Cheers, 

Rafael. 

El 2 de septiembre de 2017 12:10:19 CEST, Marc Gemis  
escribió:
>Please read e.g.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothes_shop
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutique
>
>Does your reply mean we can remove the word boutique from the English
>dictionary ?
>
>On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 02-Sep-17 04:31 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>>
>>> Is ignoring what the community did so far, a guideline ? People have
>>> used the tag boutique. So why cannot we take this practice and use
>>> that as the guideline ? Why change the currently used tags, causing
>a
>>> cost of all involved parties ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think
>the
>>> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>>
>>
>> I lack the understanding of what is meant by 'boutique' and
>'fashion'.
>>
>> I think the terms could be used for a very wide variety of features.
>>
>> The tag shop=cloths I understand and don't see any confusion over it.
>>
>> If 'fashion' simply means cloths with some added parameters then I
>would
>> think it should be a sub tag. The same for 'boutique'.
>>
>> If they mean something different from cloths .. then what are they?
>And I
>> don't want terms like - more expensive, finer materials, better
>design -
>> these are either subjective and/or sub tags.
>>
>> Fuel stations that do not sell diesel are not given a separate main
>tag -
>> they get a sub tag.
>> And yes some things in OSM have been given main tags where, with more
>> organisation, they could have been better with sub tags. 'Path' and
>footpath
>> spring to mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

So if price and quality are no criteria for different tag, why do we have
deli and convenience store? Or is that difference bigger?

Or fast food and restaurant? The difference is only quality, price and
perhaps service. But even that is not always the case.

If we drop boutique as a tag for clothes shops, how does that solve the
tagging in West Africa? Or should we tell the mappers there to change their
tagging anyway?

Op 2 sep. 2017 00:56 schreef "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 02-Sep-17 04:31 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
>> Is ignoring what the community did so far, a guideline ? People have
>> used the tag boutique. So why cannot we take this practice and use
>> that as the guideline ? Why change the currently used tags, causing a
>> cost of all involved parties ?
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
>> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>>
>
> I lack the understanding of what is meant by 'boutique' and 'fashion'.
>
> I think the terms could be used for a very wide variety of features.
>
> The tag shop=cloths I understand and don't see any confusion over it.
>
> If 'fashion' simply means cloths with some added parameters then I would
> think it should be a sub tag. The same for 'boutique'.
>
> If they mean something different from cloths .. then what are they? And I
> don't want terms like - more expensive, finer materials, better design -
> these are either subjective and/or sub tags.
>
> Fuel stations that do not sell diesel are not given a separate main tag -
> they get a sub tag.
> And yes some things in OSM have been given main tags where, with more
> organisation, they could have been better with sub tags. 'Path' and
> footpath spring to mind.
>
>
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

Please read e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothes_shop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutique

Does your reply mean we can remove the word boutique from the English
dictionary ?

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02-Sep-17 04:31 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> Is ignoring what the community did so far, a guideline ? People have
>> used the tag boutique. So why cannot we take this practice and use
>> that as the guideline ? Why change the currently used tags, causing a
>> cost of all involved parties ?
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
>> about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.
>
>
> I lack the understanding of what is meant by 'boutique' and 'fashion'.
>
> I think the terms could be used for a very wide variety of features.
>
> The tag shop=cloths I understand and don't see any confusion over it.
>
> If 'fashion' simply means cloths with some added parameters then I would
> think it should be a sub tag. The same for 'boutique'.
>
> If they mean something different from cloths .. then what are they? And I
> don't want terms like - more expensive, finer materials, better design -
> these are either subjective and/or sub tags.
>
> Fuel stations that do not sell diesel are not given a separate main tag -
> they get a sub tag.
> And yes some things in OSM have been given main tags where, with more
> organisation, they could have been better with sub tags. 'Path' and footpath
> spring to mind.
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Warin]

On 02-Sep-17 04:31 AM, Marc Gemis wrote:

Is ignoring what the community did so far, a guideline ? People have
used the tag boutique. So why cannot we take this practice and use
that as the guideline ? Why change the currently used tags, causing a
cost of all involved parties ?



This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.


I lack the understanding of what is meant by 'boutique' and 'fashion'.

I think the terms could be used for a very wide variety of features.

The tag shop=cloths I understand and don't see any confusion over it.

If 'fashion' simply means cloths with some added parameters then I would think 
it should be a sub tag. The same for 'boutique'.

If they mean something different from cloths .. then what are they? And I don't 
want terms like - more expensive, finer materials, better design - these are 
either subjective and/or sub tags.

Fuel stations that do not sell diesel are not given a separate main tag - they 
get a sub tag.
And yes some things in OSM have been given main tags where, with more 
organisation, they could have been better with sub tags. 'Path' and footpath 
spring to mind.



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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Warin]

On 02-Sep-17 06:33 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:


On 1 September 2017 19:35:01 BST, Marc Gemis  wrote:

Do you find the difference between supermarket and convenience store
helpful ? Or do you just search (as in OsmAnd) for places that sell
food ? So why bother to have 2 tags for those kind of shops ?


Actually that is one of the failings of Osmand in that mappers carefully map 
supermarkets or convenience shops but then the app I want to use to find a 
supermarket when away from home lumps the two together.

Supermarkets for example will have a fresh meat counter, fresh fish counter 
which is important stuff when you are camping.



When your far enough away from 'civilisation' the 'supermarket' has 'fresh' 
bread in the freezer and you ignore the date stamp.



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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Philip Barnes]

On 1 September 2017 19:58:10 BST, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Andrew Hain
> wrote:
>> Let’s put it this way: how many people who use the map database,
>whether
>> working from planets, editing where these tags could already have
>been used,
>> searching for objects by tags or any other way, find the tags
>shop=boutique
>> or shop=fashion helpful or wish there were more of them?
>
>A more extreme example. Do you only use building=yes, or do you use
>any of the specific types of building ? Have you ever searched for one
>of those specific types, or know anyone who did ? (besides SK53)
>
Certainly use it, and from some of the discussions on #osm tonight, its 
something that streetcomplete should use to avoid daft questions like what is 
the house number of schools. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Philip Barnes]

On 1 September 2017 19:35:01 BST, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
>Do you find the difference between supermarket and convenience store
>helpful ? Or do you just search (as in OsmAnd) for places that sell
>food ? So why bother to have 2 tags for those kind of shops ?
>
Actually that is one of the failings of Osmand in that mappers carefully map 
supermarkets or convenience shops but then the app I want to use to find a 
supermarket when away from home lumps the two together.

Supermarkets for example will have a fresh meat counter, fresh fish counter 
which is important stuff when you are camping.

Phil (trigpoint) 
-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Andrew Hain  wrote:
> Let’s put it this way: how many people who use the map database, whether
> working from planets, editing where these tags could already have been used,
> searching for objects by tags or any other way, find the tags shop=boutique
> or shop=fashion helpful or wish there were more of them?

A more extreme example. Do you only use building=yes, or do you use
any of the specific types of building ? Have you ever searched for one
of those specific types, or know anyone who did ? (besides SK53)

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Andrew Hain  wrote:
> Let’s put it this way: how many people who use the map database, whether
> working from planets, editing where these tags could already have been used,
> searching for objects by tags or any other way, find the tags shop=boutique
> or shop=fashion helpful or wish there were more of them?

we'll never know unless maps.me, OsmAnd etc start collecting those
numbers from their users and share it with the community.

Do you find the difference between supermarket and convenience store
helpful ? Or do you just search (as in OsmAnd) for places that sell
food ? So why bother to have 2 tags for those kind of shops ?

regards

m.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

Is ignoring what the community did so far, a guideline ? People have
used the tag boutique. So why cannot we take this practice and use
that as the guideline ? Why change the currently used tags, causing a
cost of all involved parties ?

But forget about that for a moment. What are the
criteria/formula/checklist one has to use to decide whether 2
different tags are appropriate or when a subtag has to be used.

Can you and Jean-Marc give me those ?

Can we apply this criteria/formula/checklist  to the following group
of tags and see whether the have to be changed into subtags ?

shop=clothes, boutique
shop=supermarket, deli, convenience
man_made/power=tower, mast, pole, flag_pole
building=residential, house, semi-detached, apartment, villa
shop=car, car_repair, car_parts, tire

* is having a wikipedia page in 10 or more languages a criteria ? apparently no
* is having a large number of objects tagged like that in OSM a
criteria ? apparently no
* is knowing how many people have searched for each of those
individual items a criteria ? Don't know, wouldn't know how we can
count that.

This is a serious question. I want to understand why people think the
about differences are ok, but clothes and boutique not.

regards

m.

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> W dniu 01.09.2017 o 17:51, Marc Gemis pisze:
>
>> So no, this group is not really representative for the community as a
>> whole.
>
>
> But what is representative? And what about standardization? I would be happy
> if we find a way to communicate things with wider community, but this is
> what we have now. As I said - one can always disagree and use "any tag you
> like" rule and that's OK for me. Standardization does not mean anybody
> enforcing, just creating guidelines - and this is what we try to do.
>
> --
> "Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O.
> Muzalyev]
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Andrew Hain]

Let’s put it this way: how many people who use the map database, whether 
working from planets, editing where these tags could already have been used, 
searching for objects by tags or any other way, find the tags shop=boutique or 
shop=fashion helpful or wish there were more of them?

--
Andrew

From: Marc Gemis <marc.ge...@gmail.com>
Sent: 01 September 2017 12:27:38
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

because other mappers thought it was needed to distinguish the two ?
Who are we (the people using this mailing list) to decide that other
mappers cannot tag a shop=boutique if it is already used 11.000 times
?
So if you want to tag that shop as shop=clothes with subtags fine, do
it. Document it, we'll see in a couple of years which one of the 2
methods is more popular.
But please do not write that one is better than the other at this
moment, nor  mark one as obsolete. Let the (whole) community decide.

and now we all go back to mapping :-)

m.

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier <j...@liotier.org> wrote:
> I still don't understand the need for anything other than shop=clothes
> used with assorted modifiers. Fashion is subjective and I do not see
> why exclusive distribution channels should be tagged differently as
> they are essentially clothes shop with no price tags and an attitude.
>
> shop=car covers both the average Volskwagen dealership and the workshop
> that sells handmade locally built overpriced exotics with golden urinal
> that you never heard of. Why should it be different for clothes ?
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Dave F]

On 31/08/2017 17:40, Daniel Koć wrote:
It's the same word, just nested, so it doesn't help, because we still 
don't know what it really means. =}


But we do know basically what it means. Putting it on a subtag allows 
renderers to ignore the minutiae and foibles of the fashion industry & 
tag it with their standard 'clothes' icon.




If we think that accessories are the core feature, it probably won't 
fit in clothes anyway,


I claimed the opposite of that.

but it's not clear yet. It's also interesting how being an outlet and 
selling second hand or handmade items relates to boutique.


I'm not convinced those are important criteria.

DaveF.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 01.09.2017 o 17:51, Marc Gemis pisze:

So no, this group is not really representative for the community as a 
whole. 


But what is representative? And what about standardization? I would be 
happy if we find a way to communicate things with wider community, but 
this is what we have now. As I said - one can always disagree and use 
"any tag you like" rule and that's OK for me. Standardization does not 
mean anybody enforcing, just creating guidelines - and this is what we 
try to do.


--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

> The community is also this list.
>

I don't believe that. This list certainly lacks diversity. Most
participants here can discuss fluently in English, most are male (if
not all). So a huge group is missing.

I've met several people that do not want to participate in this
mailing list as they do not believe in the way this group defines
tags.

You might have seen that in the past a proposal didn't get any
comments from this mailing list anymore, but was still rejected when
it was opened for voting. This means that not everybody is
participating in this discussion via the mailing list.

I mentioned this tag to some other mappers, and they said, o no,
didn't see it we only use telegram.

So no, this group is not really representative for the community as a whole.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 01.09.2017 o 13:27, Marc Gemis pisze:

because other mappers thought it was needed to distinguish the two ?


But what if "distinguishing" is just an illusion? We had about 700k+ 
uses of landuse=farm, but now it's deprecated (with about 45k uses), 
because it was not clear.



Who are we (the people using this mailing list) to decide that other
mappers cannot tag a shop=boutique if it is already used 11.000 times
?


This list is about tagging issues. One can always use "any tag you 
like", but standardization and defining things is important.



But please do not write that one is better than the other at this
moment, nor  mark one as obsolete. Let the (whole) community decide.


The community is also this list.

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

because other mappers thought it was needed to distinguish the two ?
Who are we (the people using this mailing list) to decide that other
mappers cannot tag a shop=boutique if it is already used 11.000 times
?
So if you want to tag that shop as shop=clothes with subtags fine, do
it. Document it, we'll see in a couple of years which one of the 2
methods is more popular.
But please do not write that one is better than the other at this
moment, nor  mark one as obsolete. Let the (whole) community decide.

and now we all go back to mapping :-)

m.

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
> I still don't understand the need for anything other than shop=clothes
> used with assorted modifiers. Fashion is subjective and I do not see
> why exclusive distribution channels should be tagged differently as
> they are essentially clothes shop with no price tags and an attitude.
>
> shop=car covers both the average Volskwagen dealership and the workshop
> that sells handmade locally built overpriced exotics with golden urinal
> that you never heard of. Why should it be different for clothes ?
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

I still don't understand the need for anything other than shop=clothes
used with assorted modifiers. Fashion is subjective and I do not see
why exclusive distribution channels should be tagged differently as
they are essentially clothes shop with no price tags and an attitude.

shop=car covers both the average Volskwagen dealership and the workshop
that sells handmade locally built overpriced exotics with golden urinal
that you never heard of. Why should it be different for clothes ?

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

As for all the things I listed, the word "typical" was important, it
would certainly not require them all. Maybe some were not well chosen.
The idea was that is you see a shop that has a number of those
features, it is more likely to be a boutique

As for the linked with fashion houses, Isn't it possible that e.g.
Escada (*), Dior, YvesSaintLaureant have shops that exclusively sell
items from their brand ? Those shops will always be boutiques for me.

m.

(*) no, my nickname was not inspired by this brand. :-)

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2017-09-01 7:58 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :
>>
>> Let's try to find some characteristics for boutique
>>
>> typically
>>
>> * has "boutique" somewhere on the window or logo (as Dave F wrote)
>
>
>
> wouldn't require this
>
>
>>
>> * smaller than shops from chains (limited collections)
>
>
>
> not sure this is a good criterion, would drop it
>
>
>>
>> * not part of a chain
>
>
>
> +1
>
>
>>
>> * only for women
>
>
>
> not sure either, surely there are many shops for men calling themselves
> "boutique"
>
>
>>
>> * sells only certain "expensive" brands
>
>
>
> might sell also "no brand" or "no common / well-known" brand.
>
>
>>
>> * no denim nor sports
>
>
>
> there are "exclusive" denim products you might find in a boutique, maybe
> true for sports though
>
>
>>
>> * side-line for other products (as Dave F also wrote)
>
>
>
> might be, not a requirement IMHO
>
>
>>
>> * might be linked with fashion houses
>
>
>
> What do you mean by "linked"? How I understand this, I'd rather say no.
>
>
>> * owner in the shop (?)
>
>
>
> Not a strict requirement, but more likely than in other clothing shops.
>
>
> * personnel/owner will advice you
>
>
> yes, but I'd expect this from any clothing shop save the cheapest clothing
> discounters
>
>
>
>>
>> * has no racks/bags with cheap stuff ("pick 3 for the price of 2")
>
>
>
> +1
>
>
>> * no racks outside the store
>>
>>
>
>
>
> +1, likely not
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-01 7:58 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> Let's try to find some characteristics for boutique
>
> typically
>
> * has "boutique" somewhere on the window or logo (as Dave F wrote)
>


wouldn't require this



> * smaller than shops from chains (limited collections)
>


not sure this is a good criterion, would drop it



> * not part of a chain
>


+1



> * only for women
>


not sure either, surely there are many shops for men calling themselves
"boutique"



> * sells only certain "expensive" brands
>


might sell also "no brand" or "no common / well-known" brand.



> * no denim nor sports
>


there are "exclusive" denim products you might find in a boutique, maybe
true for sports though



> * side-line for other products (as Dave F also wrote)
>


might be, not a requirement IMHO



> * might be linked with fashion houses
>


What do you mean by "linked"? How I understand this, I'd rather say no.


* owner in the shop (?)
>


Not a strict requirement, but more likely than in other clothing shops.


* personnel/owner will advice you


yes, but I'd expect this from any clothing shop save the cheapest clothing
discounters




> * has no racks/bags with cheap stuff ("pick 3 for the price of 2")
>


+1


* no racks outside the store
>
>
>


+1, likely not



Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-08-31 15:30 GMT+02:00 Daniel Koć :

> Important questions to decide:
>
>> - Can a boutique sell second hand items - or just the new ones?
>>
>

IMHO they wouldn't typically sell second hand items, on the other hand,
second hand is a property in OSM and can be added to everything




> - What about "hand made" - is it the core property of boutique or just an
>> option?
>>
>

Aren't all clothes "hand made"? Nowadays typically in countries with low
wages and weak labor unions.



> We should also answer these questions:
> - is every boutique an outlet or is it not required?
>


Following this definition: "a brick and mortar or online store in which
manufacturers sell their stock directly to the public, cutting out the
middle-men." I'd say that not every boutique is an outlet.



> - if there are no accesories, just elegant clothes, is it still boutique
> or just a shop=clothes?
>


IMHO a "boutique" doesn't have to sell accessories.



> - do we need the outlet=* tag?
>
>

I'd see it as an additional property and would keep it.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

Let's try to find some characteristics for boutique

typically

* has "boutique" somewhere on the window or logo (as Dave F wrote)
* smaller than shops from chains (limited collections)
* not part of a chain
* only for women
* sells only certain "expensive" brands
* no denim nor sports
* side-line for other products (as Dave F also wrote)
* might be linked with fashion houses
* owner in the shop (?)
* personnel/owner will advice you
* has no racks/bags with cheap stuff ("pick 3 for the price of 2")
* no racks outside the store


these are just some characteristics that we could look at.


On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> W dniu 31.08.2017 o 14:07, marc marc pisze:
>
>> for shop=boutique, I think you are wrong.
>> A shop=boutique (except from the translation+wiki being corrected)
>> is something totally different from a shop=clothes.
>> You can define the additional tags needed to have a shop=boutique
>> (handmade, high range), but even so, in my opinion it is not
>> enough to move all shop=boutique to shop=clothes.
>> I think that shop=boutique must continue to exist
>
>
> OK, it's possible, but _how_ is it different then? How can we tune/replace
> the current definition to make it easier to recognize, because we have some
> problems with showing the difference:
>
> "small shopping outlet, especially one that specializes in elite and
> fashionable items like clothing and accessories."
>
> Important questions to decide:
> - Can a boutique sell second hand items - or just the new ones?
> - What about "hand made" - is it the core property of boutique or just an
> option?
> - What other hints would be useful for a mapper?
>
> --
> "Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O.
> Muzalyev]
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 31.08.2017 o 18:09, Dave F pisze:
shop=boutique. Shops in my locale who describe themselves as 
'boutiques' ("for the discerning and stylish woman.") are primarily 
based around clothing, but often have a side-lines of other products, 
such as jewellery, handbags, beauty products & even homeware. Would 
shop=clothes. clothes=boutique clarify?


It's the same word, just nested, so it doesn't help, because we still 
don't know what it really means. =}


If we think that accessories are the core feature, it probably won't fit 
in clothes anyway, but it's not clear yet. It's also interesting how 
being an outlet and selling second hand or handmade items relates to 
boutique.


Thanks for sharing your 2 cents!

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Dave F]

My 2 cents

shop=fashion is subjective & wide ranging. Remember when some considered 
the shell suit the thing to be seen in? it needs deprecating.


shop=boutique. Shops in my locale who describe themselves as 'boutiques' 
("for the discerning and stylish woman.") are primarily based around 
clothing, but often have a side-lines of other products, such as 
jewellery, handbags, beauty products & even homeware. Would 
shop=clothes. clothes=boutique clarify?


shop=shoes is a standalone shop & should not be amalgamated into 
'clothes'. Point out a shop with shoes in the window & ask "What's 
that"? 99% of people will say "it's a shoe shop".


 DaveF


On 31/08/2017 13:07, marc marc wrote:

Le 30. 08. 17 à 19:19, Daniel Koć a écrit :

deprecate shop=fashion

I agree that shop=fashion is a "no meaning" tag


shop=boutique as part of making things clear in this field.

for shop=boutique, I think you are wrong.
A shop=boutique (except from the translation+wiki being corrected)
is something totally different from a shop=clothes.
You can define the additional tags needed to have a shop=boutique
(handmade, high range), but even so, in my opinion it is not
enough to move all shop=boutique to shop=clothes.
I think that shop=boutique must continue to exist

  > My feeling is that my wallet will know the difference
  > between shop clothes and boutique.
  > Shop boutique relates to shop clothes like restaurant
  > relates to fast food
I agree with that for shop=boutique

but can your wallet, your wife or a fashion addict explain
a difference between shop=fashion and shop=clothes
If all shop=fashion are also shop=clothes and vice versa,
perhaps the merger is usefull

  >> a member of
  >> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_couture#Liste_des_membres
  >> or same for worldwide shop
  > Shop types are not members of anything like that

I think that in France, the term "haute couture" is protected,
in the same way that you can not claim to be an architect
without formalities in certain countries. I'll check that out.
Of course on a world level, it must be more flexible but there are
still some notions that makes that Wallmark had no shop=boutique
department even if it creates a ray of high quality handmade

  > what about tagging exclusive/luxury goods? Do we need it?
all your additional tag are useull and I agree to create them.
but even so, I do not think shop=boutique must be depreciated
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 31.08.2017 o 14:44, Daniel Koć pisze:

"small shopping outlet, especially one that specializes in elite and 
fashionable items like clothing and accessories."


Important questions to decide:
- Can a boutique sell second hand items - or just the new ones?
- What about "hand made" - is it the core property of boutique or just 
an option?

- What other hints would be useful for a mapper?


Propositions:
- elite -> luxury
- accesories -> clothing accesories (bags, shoes, jewellery etc.)

I think the "outlet" concept should be explained using these informations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlet_store

We should also answer these questions:
- is every boutique an outlet or is it not required?
- if there are no accesories, just elegant clothes, is it still boutique 
or just a shop=clothes?

- do we need the outlet=* tag?

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 31.08.2017 o 14:07, marc marc pisze:


for shop=boutique, I think you are wrong.
A shop=boutique (except from the translation+wiki being corrected)
is something totally different from a shop=clothes.
You can define the additional tags needed to have a shop=boutique
(handmade, high range), but even so, in my opinion it is not
enough to move all shop=boutique to shop=clothes.
I think that shop=boutique must continue to exist


OK, it's possible, but _how_ is it different then? How can we 
tune/replace the current definition to make it easier to recognize, 
because we have some problems with showing the difference:


"small shopping outlet, especially one that specializes in elite and 
fashionable items like clothing and accessories."


Important questions to decide:
- Can a boutique sell second hand items - or just the new ones?
- What about "hand made" - is it the core property of boutique or just 
an option?

- What other hints would be useful for a mapper?

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[Marc Gemis]

>
>  > My feeling is that my wallet will know the difference
>  > between shop clothes and boutique.
>  > Shop boutique relates to shop clothes like restaurant
>  > relates to fast food
> I agree with that for shop=boutique
>
> but can your wallet, your wife or a fashion addict explain
> a difference between shop=fashion and shop=clothes
> If all shop=fashion are also shop=clothes and vice versa,
> perhaps the merger is usefull
>

As I wrote elsewhere, I don't understand the need for the
shop=fashion. But that's just me.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion shop=boutique

[marc marc]

Le 30. 08. 17 à 19:19, Daniel Koć a écrit :
> deprecate shop=fashion
I agree that shop=fashion is a "no meaning" tag

> shop=boutique as part of making things clear in this field.

for shop=boutique, I think you are wrong.
A shop=boutique (except from the translation+wiki being corrected)
is something totally different from a shop=clothes.
You can define the additional tags needed to have a shop=boutique 
(handmade, high range), but even so, in my opinion it is not
enough to move all shop=boutique to shop=clothes.
I think that shop=boutique must continue to exist

 > My feeling is that my wallet will know the difference
 > between shop clothes and boutique.
 > Shop boutique relates to shop clothes like restaurant
 > relates to fast food
I agree with that for shop=boutique

but can your wallet, your wife or a fashion addict explain
a difference between shop=fashion and shop=clothes
If all shop=fashion are also shop=clothes and vice versa,
perhaps the merger is usefull

 >> a member of
 >> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_couture#Liste_des_membres
 >> or same for worldwide shop
 > Shop types are not members of anything like that

I think that in France, the term "haute couture" is protected,
in the same way that you can not claim to be an architect
without formalities in certain countries. I'll check that out.
Of course on a world level, it must be more flexible but there are
still some notions that makes that Wallmark had no shop=boutique 
department even if it creates a ray of high quality handmade

 > what about tagging exclusive/luxury goods? Do we need it?
all your additional tag are useull and I agree to create them.
but even so, I do not think shop=boutique must be depreciated
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