Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Am 22.01.2015 um 21:18 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: a minor issue with semicolon separated lists: we don't have yet defined how to escape actual semicolons in values. Hi, Is that an issue? IMHO it's only an issue for tags where the values are names as a semicolon can be avoided easily for any enum/set-value defined by the community. If we split the discussion by this assumption in two parts, it might be easier to come to a conclusion: Case 1) A tag with a set of agreed-on values, like amenity, landuse, cuisine and much more: On those tags escaping is not an issue as we can avoid values that contain semicolons. Case 2) Names in the broadest sense: ref, addr:*, name... Here the semicolon might appear in a single value, although it's a relatively rare case I think. I can imagine semicolons to occur in housenumbers, where a house is signed with number 3;5 or something like that. Here we have to discuss if multiple values are allowed or not. In case of ref current practice seems to be to allow it, for name= it's at least not handled by much consumer software and circumvented by using other tags like alt_name, name:[lang] and more. Perhaps we should define some kind of tagging patterns to reflect that and motivate to define those patterns in the wiki documentation. Patterns could be: (1) Single free text value (2) Enum (one of a predefined set of values) (2a) Flag (yes/no) (3) Set (one-or-more of a predefined set of values) (4) Sequence (e.g. for a sequence of lanes from left to right or vice versa, again one-or-more of a predefined set of values, but here the order of values is semantically important Probably there are more of course, like natural numbers or similar Examples: (1) name/name:*, addr:street, addr:city and so on (2) most of the feature tags, like amenity, cuisine, landuse (2a) lit, intermittent, an Bushaltestellen shelter und bench..., vending:*=, (3) common fallback for mappers who don't decide for one, and a common alternative to the flags-pattern (2a) like at vending= (4) colours on seamarks [1], in principle lanes, although there | (the pipe) is used for the sequences and the semicolon for sets. regards Peter [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap/Colours ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I have placed a request to stop these edits on the users talk page and warned him that I will ban him if this kind of working against the community continues. Please let me know if the problem continues, as I don't watch the tagging list permanently. Wolfgang * Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com [150127 11:56]: Who has admin power in the Wiki? I again request a ban of this user. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I did not read any apology so far, which would be a first step. I think he was banned from this mailing list for the time being, so he would have to apologize elsewhere; but I agree that would help make amends. I would also ask him to avoid making the issues personal. But to be honest, I don't think it will happen. He has an history of communication issues in the wiki[1][2], and apparently in the russian community [3]. Altogether we can use our time/power for better stuff than this exhausting discussion which is leading nowhere I think this discussion got derailed a lot, but I saw some goals: (1) as a general guideline, when should the user be allowed to use semicolons; and (2) what are the merits of semicolons and indexed keys. I recommend we start a new thread to focus on that. [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xxzmeoldid=1130047#uncooperative_actions [2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Developer_FAQcurid=64795diff=1132213oldid=1132135 [3]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/021260.html -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5831579.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Who has admin power in the Wiki? I again request a ban of this user. Martin 2015-01-27 11:31 GMT+01:00 jgpacker john.pack...@gmail.com: Not five minutes later, he already reverted my changes, justifying it as a single user opinion and undiscussed changed. I also fixed some of his additions in other pages, but he is already reverting them. It seems he is trying to win the discussion by Fait accompli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fait_accompli . ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Our friend Никита (user Xxzme in the wiki) put his opinion in the wiki regardless of the opposition. Since, as far as I can see, the discussion is still ongoing, I reverted his changes. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5831534.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Not five minutes later, he already reverted my changes, justifying it as a single user opinion and undiscussed changed. I also fixed some of his additions in other pages, but he is already reverting them. It seems he is trying to win the discussion by Fait accompli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fait_accompli . -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5831539.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Am 24.01.2015 um 17:28 schrieb Martin Vonwald: 2015-01-24 17:20 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com mailto:acr...@gmail.com: Are you an idiot? I mean really. I hereby request a ban of this individual from this mailing list and I definitively support an OSM-wide ban. +1 this user needs some break/holiday and has to prove that he his willing to accept a community. I did not read any apology so far, which would be a first step. Altogether we can use our time/power for better stuff than this exhausting discussion which is leading nowhere cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 01/24/2015 10:28 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote: 2015-01-24 17:20 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com mailto:acr...@gmail.com: Are you an idiot? I mean really. I hereby request a ban of this individual from this mailing list and I definitively support an OSM-wide ban. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Agreed. Ad hominem attacks aren't a suitable way to discuss OSM issues. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Никита wrote: Valid point, but also should suggest good practices for people who would like to benefit from default indexes: API performance API doesn't care. Or which API call you're refering to? overpass performance Overpass could handle semicolons, if it wanted to. That is, it could provide a query interface which can fetch you the green, etc. even when there are semicolons used without require the use of regexp. I think it even should do that! BTW, who are those people anyway? Are you speaking for them for real or did you elect yourself as their spokeman without asking them? These tools are quite popular right now and we should consider how people with work with data. JOSM is editor for raw osm data, not post-processes or indexed data. Here goes your CPU argument too then. Does JOSM have indexes for fast searching with tags? And I doubt that it would be all that hard to add support to josm to handle semicolon value searching (all without regexp magic obviously to please you, newbies, and me :-)). Nobody (except you) is forcing anyone to store semicolon values as literals rather than e.g. into a postgresql array. Your argument entirely *depends* on that stupid way of loading multivalue into the DB. I see your point. Actually, let's talk about it. How smart loading script should know if key=* is multivalued or not? Should it parse every value in database? - 4 symbols? 2 escaped semicolons? how do you know? I see your point, the escape needs to be defined like has been already discussed in this thread. But actually, let's talk about it a bit more. How would your approach deal with this then? tag:=yes or tag:=yes four times(?!?) Does that make sense to newbies?!? ...I suppose you'll respond that this was a bad example and I'll whole-heartedly agree with you :-). -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Sat, 24 Jan 2015, Никита wrote: You know that it's always a trade-off, right? Exactly. Regex advocates are ponies in DB design. disk usage/IO Index lookup for color:green:lightgreen=yes is fast. So is the index lookup for color=...;lightgreen;... ! network traffic could increase. 1-2 more tags per object? So? Yes, it will increase traffic load. There no option to choose between if somebody choose to use ; in value. You have to use regexes. FYI, this is not sane thing to do with relational databases. This is a false statement. Nobody (except you) is forcing anyone to store semicolon values as literals rather than e.g. into a postgresql array. Your argument entirely *depends* on that stupid way of loading multivalue into the DB. I wish you'd really drop the discussion about DBs and using regexp there as it's not the strongpoint of your argument really. There are good points in your dislike of semicolons but they are certainly not on the DB side. -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
You know that it's always a trade-off, right? Exactly. Regex advocates are ponies in DB design. disk usage/IO Index lookup for color:green:lightgreen=yes is fast. full table scan just to compute regex for each value is not Or wait do you have an custom DB for OSM tailored both for regexes and geo-queries? network traffic could increase. 1-2 more tags per object? So? Yes, it will *increase *traffic load*.* There no option to choose between if somebody choose to use ; in value. You have to use regexes. FYI, this is not sane thing to do with relational databases. I'd rather add more indexes that will search for answers like these: http://dba.stackexchange.com/questions/10694/pattern-matching-with-like-similar-to-or-regular-expressions-in-postgresql Do you get my point now about technical aspect of this? We need multivalue tags, there easier way to avoid problem: avoid multiple values in *value *part of key=value. i suggest learning to deal with it. Are you an idiot? I mean really. Try answer these points: - we can provide clear definition at wiki page for iD or JOSM developers with description of tag instead of guessing by taginfo stats EVERY time they want to adjust something in presets - custom strings in editors or JOSM presets are easier to add ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 1/24/15 11:20 AM, Никита wrote: ltivalue tags, there easier way to avoid problem: avoid multiple values in /value /part of key=value. i suggest learning to deal with it. Are you an idiot? I mean really. ok, i'm done here. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
2015-01-24 17:20 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: Are you an idiot? I mean really. I hereby request a ban of this individual from this mailing list and I definitively support an OSM-wide ban. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
i suggest learning to deal with it. Are you an idiot? I mean really. Try answer these points: Insulting people will get you nowhere at all. If you want to be able to perfom index searches, then import the data in tables with fields allowing you to do so. That's the great thing about open data. You can work with it any way you like. By now, it should be clear you're not finding any support here for converting semicolon delimited lists to some more verbose format. The only consensus I see emerging is that we should avoid them where this is practical and possible. Jo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I suggest you to deal with it (sic!) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Insulting people will get you nowhere at all. Well there over hundred messages and some people don't dare to study topic, I was repeating my messages multiple times already. If you want to be able to perform index searches, then import the data in tables with fields allowing you to do so. That's the great thing about open data. You can work with it any way you like. Valid point, but also should suggest good practices for people who would like to benefit from default indexes: API performance overpass performance These tools are quite popular right now and we should consider how people with work with data. JOSM is editor for raw osm data, not post-processes or indexed data. not finding any support here for converting semicolon delimited lists to some more verbose format I don't need support. People use this *more verbose* format right now for information they care about. Problem was in outdated documentation at wiki and people at this tagging list... The only consensus I see emerging is that we should avoid them where this is practical and possible. It was so long before discussion at tagging list. Somehow it become rege...@openstreetmap.org. Nobody (except you) is forcing anyone to store semicolon values as literals rather than e.g. into a postgresql array. Your argument entirely *depends* on that stupid way of loading multivalue into the DB. I see your point. Actually, let's talk about it. How smart loading script should know if key=* is multivalued or not? Should it parse every value in database? - 4 symbols? 2 escaped semicolons? how do you know? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: reduced cpu load for database because there no need to compute smart regexes You know that it's always a trade-off, right? While the CPU usage *could* be lowered, disk usage/IO and network traffic could increase. There is no magic with your approach. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 1/24/15 10:58 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: reduced cpu load for database because there no need to compute smart regexes You know that it's always a trade-off, right? While the CPU usage *could* be lowered, disk usage/IO and network traffic could increase. There is no magic with your approach. furthermore, there is no reason to assume that the computation is being done on the same system; in fact, it is unlikely that any regex computation is being done on the DB server. i find the case for this unconvincing, it seems mostly motivated by an intense dislike for regular expressions. but the regex has been a standard technique for decades; i suggest learning to deal with it. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
in order to catch them all you need color:*green*=yes, a (simple) regular expression I don't need any regex. STOP. color:green=yes color:green:lightgreen=yes color:green=yes query is dead simple. Even with your schema you will not be able to avoid that people will need regular expressions to express some queries. What. So, this is a non-issue for anybody that isn't working directly with the raw data. What. Do you ever open JOSM? - we can provide newbies them with link to wiki. - we don't need to teach every person how to parse japanese from cuisine=mexican;japanese using f#$% regexes - we can provide clear definition at wiki page for iD or JOSM developers with description of tag instead of guessing by taginfo stats EVERY time they want to adjust something in presets - custom strings in editors or JOSM presets are easier to add - we get benefits from taginfo stats by using xxx:yyy=yes - advanced set querying for users, - reduced cpu load for database because there no need to compute *smart regexes* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
2015-01-24 14:29 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: Clueless people Once again I want to thank you for your kind words. The end. Any chance, that you will follow this rule anytime soon? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 7:51 PM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Wow. Quality of discussion here. I even find the second example more difficult to visualize. It's just worse than the first in every respect payment=efectivo;visa;mastercard;american␣express payment=mastercard;visa;efectivo Now try to find *efectivo *with your regexes. If you want to tell me something about /.**efectivo*.*/ you have no idea what OSM about and how regexes work. Say hello to payment=mastercard;visa;efectivonotinspain There programmers out there but I'm an idiot and cannot teach how to write REGEX to casual user. They are true heros OSM need: http://xkcd.com/208/. How to query for payment:efectivo=yes? I definitely need regex here. Please, help me! Most people (and I don't mean just OpenStreetMap-aware types) *don't care about the data model*. That's for the application to deal with. So, this is a non-issue for anybody that isn't working directly with the raw data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
in order to catch them all you need color:*green*=yes, a (simple) regular expression. No, I don't. I use tags color:green=yes color:green:lightgreen=yes And will search for color:green=yes while I wait for native multivalue tags. Even with your schema you will not be able to avoid that people will need regular expressions to express some queries. Unjustified statement. Read above. There no need in regexes if you know set logic and how to use and document tags properly. Clueless people should not enforce their regexes to everyone in OSM. The end. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
i've removed prior discussion so that this can stand on its own. i admit that the distinction between keys and values is a bit blurry; it would be a fallacy to claim that data goes only in values because that's obviously not completely true. however, i will assert that for key space to be useful it needs to be managed; pushing to much arbitrary data into the key space reduces its utility. from this point of view, having colour in key space makes sense but having the actual names of colours as subkeys seems to me to be overloading too much data value into the key side. for every parsing problem you simplify on the value side by flipping data into subkeys, you create additional complexity when data consumers must navigate key space. what we're doing now is not necessarily ideal, the fact that we're having this discussion shows this. however, moving a bunch of data data into key space to avoid semicolons does not strike me as an improvement. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 23/01/2015, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: the classic example being the name key. This is bad example. We have many tags with their own semantic: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations We don't need name_1, name_2 or name#1 or name#2 keys. Of course when you can figure out names that are semantically different, you use the specific tag. But it's not rare that a place has two names that cannot be differentiated by semantic or popularity. In those cases you have alt_name if you're lucky enough to only need one extra name, and name_number if you need more values. There no point in using indexes in key. You need semantic subkey: color, length, size, visibility. Not meaningless integers. Again, my example several messages earlier: Indexes and subkeys are two different usecases. Both are useful. name=purple name#2=orange name#3=green How do you query for green in overpass? In JOSM? josm: name(#\d+)?=green overpass: I don't know it enough ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Tag namespaces already provide a kind of data structure facility. IMHO a syntax that is close to the traditional way of representing vectors of structures would be something like this: addr[1]:housenumber=1234 addr[1]:street=Main Street addr[2]:housenumber=7654 addr[2]:street=Elm Avenue All house numbers are called housenumber, addr[1] and addr[2] are both instances of an address. In fact, if the : is replaced by a ., it starts to look very familiar Is the maximum length of a value still 255 characters (or is it bytes?)? With the ; syntax we could easily come up against that limit, whereas an array / key-based syntax would allow 255 for each individual value. Obviously (at least IMHO) the data model of OSM would benefit from having a defined method to represent higher-level constructs. Some people are already talking about having an area or a polygon distinct from a way with start=end. Why not have a proper discussion about how to represent lists of values? Of course it helps to have some examples in mind, but let's step back and find a more generic solution which will also address our current problem. I really don't think the fact that some people don't understand regular expressions is a good reason to not look to the future. Once a standard is defined, the software will soon catch up - if the standard is well-specified. If the standard is not well-specified, poorly documented, too many exceptions etc then it will be ignored. Colin On 2015-01-23 17:29, Tod Fitch wrote: On Jan 23, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/23/15 10:13 AM, jgpacker wrote: I don't understand the insistence in using regexes as some kind of argument against semicolon lists. A semicolon list is an extremely simple pattern. Such a pattern can be easily parsed even WITHOUT regexes. Me and other developers in this thread (Imagic, Friedrich, David, Dmitry, Marc) are trying to tell you semicolons are not a problem. +1 competent languages provide simple mechanisms for splitting strings on single characters. sometimes the function is even called split richard Yes, nearly every scripting language I've used has an easy way to split a string on a character or substring. Is there is a value string that contains a semi-colon that is part of the actual value rather than a delimiter between values. I can't think of any but since for some key names the value field is free form I suppose it could happen. A semantic solution to that would be to document which keys may have (or maybe a shorter list of exceptions that cannot have) multiple values separated by semi-colons. However there is the related question of how to deal with things like multiple addresses for one object, the subject of another current thread. In this case you probably don't want to be dealing with: addr:housenumber=1234;7654 addr:street=Main Street;Elm Avenue So you will be dealing with something like: addr:housenumber=1234 addr:street=Main Street addr:housenumber_1=7654 addr:street_1=Elm Avenue Coming up with a uniform way of dealing with arrays of values would mean that a simple and consistent solution could be used for both problems. I don't much care if the syntax of the key is key:1, key_1, key#1 or key[1] but I do think that something needs to be picked for sets of keys that have related values. And once you do that the solution could be applied as an alternative to semi-colon delimited values in the case being discussed here. Having one approach that solves two issues seems better to me than having two solutions. Yes, any robust data consumer software will have to deal with all the existing ways things are done now. But standardizing on way to go forward should help in the future. Cheers, Tod Fitch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 23/01/2015, althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: Visually for index I would go for # or - but I don't know if that is acceptable regarding special characters status. name=* name#2=* name#3=* I really like using '#' as the index separator. It is sometimes pronounced number. It hasn't been used before in osm keys (AFAIK), which is both a blessing (no clash with an existing definition) and a curse (need to convince everybody to start using that). '_', '-', and '' (empty string) have the drawback of being mistakable for something else. '[]' may appeal to some (it's the same syntax as many programming languages), but it feels a bit verbose and it can be a pain for regexps. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 23/01/2015, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: name=purple name#2=orange name#3=green How do you query for green in overpass? In JOSM? josm: name(#\d+)?=green overpass: I don't know it enough Note that if key#index=value becomes commonly used, tools like josm and overpass (and nominatim and and and...) will eventually integrate it into their engine, so that searching for key will also automatically find key(#\d+)?. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 22/01/2015, Charles Basenga Kiyanda perso...@charleskiyanda.com wrote: I have to add fuel to a heated discussion, but in the whole exchange on whether or not semicolon lists should be allowed/used, the most obvious example (to me) that requires semicolon lists was not mentionned, namely: opening hours. That's probably because opening_hours is arguably *not* a multiple-values field, so it's not very interesting to bring it into this discussion. A bit like seamark colors, providing only part of the information is barely usefull (which indeed makes the idea of spliting opening_hours into multiple keys silly). Opening_hours is complex enough that it needs its own specific parser. You can't treat it as a generic multiple-values field. It wouldn't make any difference if the opening_hours spec was using '' instead of ';' for example. Substituting opening_hours = Mo-We 08:00-17:00; Th-Fr 08:00-21:00 to opening_hours:Mo-We 08:00-17:00 = yes opening_hours:Th-Fr 08:00-21:00 = yes would in my opinion lead to an inordinate number of subkeys. Yes, that's definitely out. Using the key to convey multiple values is only advisable if the value is standardised. As was said earlyer, nobody is suggesting name:Main Street=yes either. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Or wait, I actually misunderstood you, my point is still valid. Did you mean color[1]=yellow? color[2]=red? But again, how do you query then? Query for red? color[*]=red? Regexes again. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: But again, how do you query then? Query for red? color[*]=red? Regexes again. He is representing an array where [1] is the first position. There is no need for regexes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Agree, there no regexes at first. But is it possible to query this tagging scheme? Lets say you have color[1]=purple color[2]=orange color[3]=green How do you query for green in overpass? In JOSM? And what if for another object you will have different set of tags with different order? color[1]=black color[2]=green color[3]=white Thats why I was always suggesting this approach: color:*actualcolorvalue*=yes This is not array, but set. There semantic in key part of key=value. I.e. this is very similar to what OSM was always doing, no need for numeric indexes in keys IMO. It was mentioned in this discussion already. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
That object is not part of the result set. Maybe he meant how to find out that an item is missing from the list? Well I don't see how that becomes any easier by moving the values over to the keys. color:green!=* in overpass should return values without information about green color or color:green=no will return objects without green color And apparently coming up with regexes that can work with that, is even more 'complex'. It is not complex. It is *impossible to write presets or translations for iD or JOSM* using name#2=green approach. To all regex advocates, your knowledge of regexes is irrelevant to how OSM functions. I wait for your solution how we should support name=, name#2= name#3= in presets or translations. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 6:40 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Well I don't see how that becomes any easier by moving the values over to the keys. color:green!=* in overpass should return values without information about green color or color:green=no will return objects without green color But how can you find all green, lightgreen, bluegreen, etc. values (aka all greenish colors) in your approach ? m. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Well not perfect solution at the moment, but least I don't need to teach somebody regexes: color:green=yes | color:lightgreen=yes | color: bluegreen=yes | ... But how this is different from regexes? you would say. 1. There no regexes at all 2. There should be pages about http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:color:bluegreen=yes redirecting to page with actual scheme or defition in user language... 3. No performance penalties from regexes Alternatively you may always use multiple tags color:green=yes color:green:lightgreen=yes Nobody restricts you with tagging precision here. Actually we don't have such problem beoynd tagging list, our tags in OSM are way more easier: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 22/01/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: a minor issue with semicolon separated lists: we don't have yet defined how to escape actual semicolons in values. To me, that is actually a major issue (putting blank fields in the same basket). Defining how litteral semicolons and blank fields should be represented isn't that hard. But making sure that consumers (let alone editors) all follow whatever algorythm we'd end up choosing is damn near impossible. Even if you wave your magik wand and convert all programs today, tomorrow 10 new program will be writen that just uses split(value,';') because that's the obvious implementation. That impossibility is why I'm convinced that semicolons as the only way to support multiple values is a very bad idea, despite being often nicer to look at. They're fine to use for simple cases, but not for anything complex or wide-ranging. Contrast semicolons with the key_number scheme, which can safely be implemented universally for all keys by a consumer, or the various key:subkey schemes which can present more subtle information. And contrary to semicolons, both those schemes downgrade gracefuly when the consumer doesn't handle multiple-value schemes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 22/01/2015, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: With respect objects that have multiple values for a key, the arguments seem to come down to either: 1. key=value1;value2;. . . ,valueN 2. key:value1=yes + key:value2=yes + . . . + key:valueN=yes 3. keyindexseparatorindex=value As a programmer I can parse either set using any number of different methods. I am not against using a :' in the key string to create name spaces and for grouping related keys. I think that is a very useful construct. But from a purely logical point of view, I'd say the second way misses the concept of key=value and is using key:value with a noise suffix of =yes. Typically missing keys should be treated as having a value of either no or unknown. Unless you can show me where key:value1=is something other than yes then I may suspect you of putting values into the key field of the data. You've given examples yourself where the value isn't yes. The keys addr1:housenumber and name_1 obviously don't have yes as a value. Note also that nobody ever tagged addr=42;Backer Street. It's not key:value but key:subkey. At present we have approached each case on an ad hoc basis. Sometimes using a number suffix by itself (addr2), sometimes preceded by a underscore (name_1) and sometimes by using a semicolon delimited list in the value field. By setting a simple convention for key with an array of values I think many of these cases could be handled in a simple, easy to remember unified manner. Yes, I'd actually like to see this discussion happening. Seeing addr1 suggested when name_1 is in use irks me (the separator isn't the same). Another format that occasionally gets suggested is key[index]=value. And it might be a good idea to clarify the interpretation with subkeys (is it key_1:subkey or key:subkey_1 ?). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 22/01/2015, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote:
Am 22.01.2015 um 21:32 schrieb Tod Fitch:
key:1=value1
key:2=value2
key:3=value3
No not at all, this makes it worse. Numbers are way to general and you
gain little.
: is usualy used for subkeys so key1, key2 would even be better.
Subkeys are not always usable, the classic example being the name key.
Also, I think that the subkey separator (':') should be different from
the index separator (let's say '_' although that isn't fully
standardised yet). Because I could concoct an example where 2 is a
subkey rather than an index.
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
the classic example being the name key. This is bad example. We have many tags with their own semantic: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations We don't need name_1, name_2 or name#1 or name#2 keys. name=* name#2=* name#3=* There no point in using indexes in key. You need semantic subkey: color, length, size, visibility. Not meaningless integers. Again, my example several messages earlier: name=purple name#2=orange name#3=green How do you query for green in overpass? In JOSM? And what if for another object you will have different set of tags with different order? name=black name#2=green name#3=white Again name is bad example, ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I don't understand the insistence in using regexes as some kind of argument against semicolon lists. A semicolon list is an extremely simple pattern. Such a pattern can be easily parsed even WITHOUT regexes. Me and other developers in this thread (Imagic, Friedrich, David, Dmitry, Marc) are trying to tell you semicolons are not a problem. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5831177.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Jan 23, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Richard Welty wrote: On 1/23/15 10:13 AM, jgpacker wrote: I don't understand the insistence in using regexes as some kind of argument against semicolon lists. A semicolon list is an extremely simple pattern. Such a pattern can be easily parsed even WITHOUT regexes. Me and other developers in this thread (Imagic, Friedrich, David, Dmitry, Marc) are trying to tell you semicolons are not a problem. +1 competent languages provide simple mechanisms for splitting strings on single characters. sometimes the function is even called split richard Yes, nearly every scripting language I've used has an easy way to split a string on a character or substring. Is there is a value string that contains a semi-colon that is part of the actual value rather than a delimiter between values. I can't think of any but since for some key names the value field is free form I suppose it could happen. A semantic solution to that would be to document which keys may have (or maybe a shorter list of exceptions that cannot have) multiple values separated by semi-colons. However there is the related question of how to deal with things like multiple addresses for one object, the subject of another current thread. In this case you probably don't want to be dealing with: addr:housenumber=1234;7654 addr:street=Main Street;Elm Avenue So you will be dealing with something like: addr:housenumber=1234 addr:street=Main Street addr:housenumber_1=7654 addr:street_1=Elm Avenue Coming up with a uniform way of dealing with arrays of values would mean that a simple and consistent solution could be used for both problems. I don't much care if the syntax of the key is key:1, key_1, key#1 or key[1] but I do think that something needs to be picked for sets of keys that have related values. And once you do that the solution could be applied as an alternative to semi-colon delimited values in the case being discussed here. Having one approach that solves two issues seems better to me than having two solutions. Yes, any robust data consumer software will have to deal with all the existing ways things are done now. But standardizing on way to go forward should help in the future. Cheers, Tod Fitch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
While I am no skilled programmer I agree with the next points: (any guru is welcome to disregard my following opinion if he wants to) Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work. Regexps are AFAIK quite controversial because they are efficient at some tasks but also can be hard to maintain -- especially if poorly documented. OSM is an open project for open data and we should strive not to create unnecessary hurdles for access and use of this data. OSM is not only for developers but also for experts in their fields (but not computing/programming), students, local communities and any citizen. Regexps should not be used or misused as peer recognition or trial to check whether someone is worthy to access all levels of data. It is easy for any good enough programmer: not a good argument in my book. [key:subkey=*] gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance I agree that it is more flexible, gives more freedom to sort and add details. If I am not mistaken [key:subkey=*] can do everything as [key=values;separated;by;semicolon] and more. The reverse is not true. [I too consider that] Using semicolon-lists for values [is] a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Also, I think that the subkey separator (':') should be different from
the index separator (let's say '_' although that isn't fully
standardised yet). Because I could concoct an example where 2 is a
subkey rather than an index.
Visually for index I would go for # or - but I don't know if that
is acceptable regarding special characters status.
name=*
name#2=*
name#3=*
or
cuisine=*
cuisine-2=*
cuisine-3=*
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 1/23/15 10:13 AM, jgpacker wrote: I don't understand the insistence in using regexes as some kind of argument against semicolon lists. A semicolon list is an extremely simple pattern. Such a pattern can be easily parsed even WITHOUT regexes. Me and other developers in this thread (Imagic, Friedrich, David, Dmitry, Marc) are trying to tell you semicolons are not a problem. +1 competent languages provide simple mechanisms for splitting strings on single characters. sometimes the function is even called split richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Which too schemes? I think you'd need to be more specific. As for deprecating semicolon-delimited lists. I don't think it's practical to abolish them completely, so they'll have to stay. I do agree that it makes sense to try and avoid them as much as possible, but it's simply not always possible. As for the remark that route_ref shouldn't exist, and that information should be in route relations. Well there are bus lines which may never have route relations. (on demand buses which don't have a fixed route, school buses, market day buses, Sunday and Friday evening special service fares to get students home, etc.). But it's still information which is not hard to map when surveying, and which is good to have when no route relation has been set up yet, or to validate the correctness of the route relation. About the remark that it's hard to figure out whether an item is missing from the list. I'm sorry, but it's not because 7;8;10;11 are there that 9 necessarily is missing from the list. I deleted everything which was hidden under the three dots. Jo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Hi Jo/Polyglot and list, On 22 January 2015 at 12:01, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Which too schemes? I think you'd need to be more specific. 1. key=values;separated;by;semicolon 2. several key:subkey=* route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597 I don't know if this is a real or fictitious example, but try not to hit the limit of 255 characters for values. ;) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 12:59 PM, althio althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: I even find the second example more difficult to visualize. It's just worse than the first in every respect. From a mapper's point of view My little +1 for key:subkey=* New people don't know how to add new keys. So they will have problems to add cuisine:antwerp = yes (in case such a thing would exist :-) ). it's much easier to come up with cuisine=Antwerp, especially when there is an input field cuisine. regards m. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
It's an actual example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/80725474 https://delijn.be/nl/haltes/halte/303059 (real time information) 121 characters... there's still some breathing room. I guess the risk of the street getting congested is higher than hitting the 255 characters limit. Jo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Rattling on about those bus stops, I have an other example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/485938967 bus http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bus?uselang=en-US yes highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway?uselang=en-US bus_stop http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=bus%20stop?uselang=en-US name http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name?uselang=en-US Porte de Hal - Hallepoort name:fr http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:fr?uselang=en-US Porte de Hal name:nl http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:nl?uselang=en-US Hallepoort network http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:network?uselang=en-US DLVB;IBXL;TECB;TECC;IBXL operator http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator?uselang=en-US De Lijn;STIB/MIVB;TEC;STIB/MIVB public_transport http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:public%20transport?uselang=en-US platform http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public%20transport=platform?uselang=en-US ref:De_Lijn 301026 ref:TECB Bsgipha1 ref:TECC Cbxhal1 route_ref http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:route%20ref?uselang=en-US 27 route_ref:De_Lijn 136;137 route_ref:TECB W;123 route_ref:TECC 365a zone:De_Lijn 20 zone:TEC 6220 A bus stop served by 3 operators, of which one, there are 2 entitities each assigning their own identifier. For operator and network there are ; in those lists and I don't see what's the problem with those. For ref I don't want to find multivalue. For the rare occasions where this occurs (2 stops with different refs from the same operator), the nodes are duplicated, then grouped together in a stop_area. And before anybody says: we don't want those foreign keys in OSM, well the scripts I'm developing to assist contributors for adding route relations, heavily depend on them. Polyglot ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
First point: It is good that several people invent, propose and use various schemes. Second point: At some point, unification of schemes with similar intent would be great. As usage grows, having the same kind of data treated differently is a pain for everyone, mappers, developers, maintainers and data consumers alike. I don't think one of the schemes is clearly superior to the other, only I wish that it could be open to discussion, open to improvements and settled. Once it is agreed upon (or enforced by any committee, anyone?), people can start to work on unified tagging, clear documentation, adapted presets and simpler algorithms with less cases or exceptions to handle. Or it is decided that we continue with the two schemes, that both are valid, accepted, documented for tagging and consumption. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I even find the second example more difficult to visualize. It's just worse than the first in every respect. From a mapper's point of view My little +1 for key:subkey=* In free text like this thread, several key:subkey=* may look more heavy and complicated than key=values;separated;by;semicolon. _However_ I think this is reversed in the context of editors (iD, JOSM...) and elements lookup [1] where key and values are presented in tables. + key:subkey=* tabulated is easier to read + key:subkey=* tags are separated, it is slightly easier to select them and update, to delete one only, to add by copy/paste. + key=values;separated;by;semicolon means less typing/keystrokes but this is much mitigated by use of presets, auto-completion or copy/paste. [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/106464005 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Am 22.01.2015 um 18:08 schrieb Marc Gemis: On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:49 PM, althio althio.fo...@gmail.com mailto:althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: Well at least iD knows quite well about the semi-colon: Just merge two ways together and you might get access=no;yes highway=primary;path without any warning. New people can have problems or make mistakes and then experienced users can help and point to recommended tagging or explain good practices . Not everybody reaches out to community for help. Probably many just stop mapping, requiring them to create a new key, instead of typing something in a free text field is not going to help IMHO. That is why I would be interested to mention the semi-colon on tag-pages where it is in common use. This helps in general for question about list or array, order or not. Or do you refer to iD (as the main editor for new people) where it is not possible to override presets to edit keys on the first part of the tag panel? What I tried to explain is that when you go for a tagging scheme where only cuisine:xxx=yes is allowed, the editor (iD) should offer a simple UI that allows people to create new values. In this case that means keys, since the values are actually in the keys. At this moment, it is also not possible to create JOSM presets that generates keys based on user input AFIAK. +1 Using a xxx:yyy schema also requires checkboxes besides every existing value in JOSM presets. So I don't see how it is any easier for new mappers or preset creators. Presets are a problem [1],[2] and it is not easy to present tag list with more than 50 tags per object. Cheers fly [1] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6268 [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/8993 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Am 22.01.2015 um 21:32 schrieb Tod Fitch: I've been following this and the addrN thread with a mixture of amusement and irritation. Lots of the arguments come down to how easy it is to parse using some tool or another. Or whether the problem the original poster was trying to address actually exists. With respect objects that have multiple values for a key, the arguments seem to come down to either: 1. key=value1;value2;. . . ,valueN 2. key:value1=yes + key:value2=yes + . . . + key:valueN=yes As a programmer I can parse either set using any number of different methods. I am not against using a :' in the key string to create name spaces and for grouping related keys. I think that is a very useful construct. But from a purely logical point of view, I'd say the second way misses the concept of key=value and is using key:value with a noise suffix of =yes. Typically missing keys should be treated as having a value of either no or unknown. Unless you can show me where key:value1=is something other than yes then I may suspect you of putting values into the key field of the data. Might I suggest that a convention for keys that may contain multiple values that the : delimiter be used in the key but rather than putting arbitrary (data) values after the colon, use an numeric index: key:1=value1 key:2=value2 key:3=value3 No not at all, this makes it worse. Numbers are way to general and you gain little. : is usualy used for subkeys so key1, key2 would even be better. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
opening_hours:Mo-We 08:00-17:00 = yes opening_hours:Th-Fr 08:00-21:00 = yes would in my opinion lead to an inordinate number of subkeys. If you were reading other people messages you would probably notice that opening_hours=* tag was mentioned as minor exception to general rule *not to use semicolon in value.* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Using a xxx:yyy schema also requires checkboxes besides every existing value in JOSM presets. So I don't see how it is any easier for new mappers or preset creators. Problem in multiple values in value part in *key=value.* How iD should parse cuisine=mexican;japanese? This work repeated every time by wiki editors, by iD developers, by JOSM preset developers. There no point for this. Just ban semicolon and write actual page about *whatever*:mexican=yes *whatever*:japanese=yes *We don't have native arrays right now*. We have to decide which part of key=value will be ugly for some time so we can re-tag them back using real arrays. xxx:yyy=yes / semantic subtags are ugly, this is terrible for absolutely new to OSM people the same way key=value tags are terrible, but - we can provide newbies them with link to wiki. - we don't need to teach every person how to parse japanese from cuisine=mexican;japanese using f#$% regexes - we can provide clear definition at wiki page for iD or JOSM developers with description of tag instead of guessing by taginfo stats EVERY time they want to adjust something in presets - custom strings in editors or JOSM presets are easier to add - we get benefits from taginfo stats by using xxx:yyy=yes - advanced set querying for users, - reduced cpu load for database because there no need to compute *smart regexes* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Propaganda. Propaganda. Propaganda. But it's harder to get all tags in category. How would you get all the payment methods, not the exact 'ellectrico'? Why normal person need to know about all payments methods if he/she only have mastercard/ellectrico/coins? You probably never use data at all. DATA against your words: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=payment. People prefer *complex* tagging schemes because they can actually *use* this data and not to write long post about regexes at tagging list. But for mappers, who are normal people, not the crazy data miners route_ref=1;2;3;4;5;123;124;125;126;234;235;236;456;457;458a How you search for ref=127? You are the crazy who want to use regexes. STOP. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:22 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: we don't need to teach every person how to parse japanese from cuisine=mexican;japanese using f#$% regexes In my code editor I can search for complete word by ticking a checkbox, how simple is that ? It will not match japaneseinword or wordaroundjapaneseword when the checkbox is ticked and I search for japanese, but it will find japanese in chinese;japanese; korean Just provide the users a tool with a checkbox complete word or make it the default if you wish. People writing software for dummies will use this kind of techniques all the time. Hide the internals from the end-users. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 15-01-22 01:44 PM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Message: 3 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 18:08:49 +0100 From: Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists Message-ID: CAJKJX-S3rCtHqSH+22+zrn0H5k6_ATTTOcmZmdcESYeK6k=1...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 In this thread we are also most interested in multiple values. I know :-) I have to add fuel to a heated discussion, but in the whole exchange on whether or not semicolon lists should be allowed/used, the most obvious example (to me) that requires semicolon lists was not mentionned, namely: opening hours. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours I've tried before to collect data on parking restrictions in the city of montreal (Canada). Parking restricted/allowed times are an example of geographical data that requires a time description. I don't think the problem can be solved by relations. Simply because parking is allowed on two different streets between 2 and 3 pm, does not mean they're related. As noted on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation#Types_of_relation They are not designed to hold loosely associated but widely spread items. It would be inappropriate, for instance, to use a relation to group 'All footpaths in East Anglia'. Similarly, holding all street segments for which parking is allowed between 2 and 3pm on the island of montreal in a relation strikes me as a bad idea. Substituting opening_hours = Mo-We 08:00-17:00; Th-Fr 08:00-21:00 to opening_hours:Mo-We 08:00-17:00 = yes opening_hours:Th-Fr 08:00-21:00 = yes would in my opinion lead to an inordinate number of subkeys. For example, in montreal alone, there are about 65000 different types of city parking signs. Let's say the number of individual distinct parking restrictions is only 10% of that, there would still be 6500 different subkeys (looking only at my city only). To make a long story short, this example, to me, shows that semicolon lists should stay in the tagging scheme. I would suggest discussing: A) For which keys and/or type of data are semicolon lists pertinent? B) How can semicolon lists be handled better in the different editors? as separate topics. Right now the two topics seem intertwined, which strikes me as less productive. With nothing but regards to all, Charles ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
A) For which keys and/or type of data are semicolon lists pertinent? For keys that can logically have multiple values and that are not the main/defining key of the object. B) How can semicolon lists be handled better in the different editors? If you are using a tag from a preset, iD theorically can create the tag from any kind of interface. Not sure about JOSM, but I don't think this would be a show-stopper as long as semicolons is a better alternative. By the way, as far as I can tell people here wouldn't say that always avoiding semicolons whenever possible is good practice, correct? [1][2] [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Good_practicediff=nextoldid=1128365 [2]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Avoid_semi-colon_value_separator -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5831050.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:49 PM, althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: New people can have problems or make mistakes and then experienced users can help and point to recommended tagging or explain good practices . Not everybody reaches out to community for help. Probably many just stop mapping, requiring them to create a new key, instead of typing something in a free text field is not going to help IMHO. In this thread we are also most interested in multiple values. I know :-) Or do you refer to iD (as the main editor for new people) where it is not possible to override presets to edit keys on the first part of the tag panel? What I tried to explain is that when you go for a tagging scheme where only cuisine:xxx=yes is allowed, the editor (iD) should offer a simple UI that allows people to create new values. In this case that means keys, since the values are actually in the keys. At this moment, it is also not possible to create JOSM presets that generates keys based on user input AFIAK. Using a xxx:yyy schema also requires checkboxes besides every existing value in JOSM presets. So I don't see how it is any easier for new mappers or preset creators. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
a minor issue with semicolon separated lists: we don't have yet defined how to escape actual semicolons in values. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Am 22.01.2015 um 14:07 schrieb Jo winfi...@gmail.com: network DLVB;IBXL;TECB;TECC;IBXL operator De Lijn;STIB/MIVB;TEC;STIB/MIVB I'd completely refrain in this case from tagging these to one object and use relations instead. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I cannot understand your example without illustration. Hide the internals from the end-users. We can easily hide *something*:japanese=yes *something*:korean=yes under single field *something*=*traditional semicolon presentation*, but not vice versa. I suggested plugin for JOSM that will present multiple subkeys as text field or as multiple checkboxes, it will be not so hard to implement for JOSM. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia? This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging: traffic_calming:table=yes traffic_calming:chocker=yes Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to traffic_calming = table; choker to get support in legacy software or outdated tools? We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually tables chockers): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abandoned http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010. I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now: cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware *And actual tags for new software and presets* cuisine:japanse=yes cuisine:chinese=yes This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned. Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X. 2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ? I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road. Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ? If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys... regards m. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions. Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for coin without finding bitcoin. If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added. My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach *any regex* to josm user or id user. We don't use multiple values for many things: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway#Values ... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers. I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over *key:semanticsubtag=value*. For the latter: - you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search - you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language - you can make wiki page about it - you can send this link page to newbie - you can be sure about meaning of this value Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using : in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted. Actually not that bad: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fueldirection=nextoldid=400799 was here since 2010. Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please No I didn't. Quote them. PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages. 2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please STOP this thread everyone. Please. 2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world. We care about data we map. We document it instead of guessing by taginfo. We use real tags instead of regexes for users. We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes simply to map things around them. I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I will revert them. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance . There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there differences, so what? Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
When you ask to have it rendered, one of the arguments for not doing so is that those extra fields are not imported in the DB specifically set up for rendering. It's considered too complicated, if data is clean and consistent, conversion process should be easy even for legacy renders or routing software. We should work on documentation for more user friendly tools ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmosis/Writing_Plugins) If you know structure your information, there nothing complex for you. In most situations you say when some old tag should be replaced with newer version. But I do agree conversion software support may be not the ATM or poorly documented. route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317; 333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395; 520;524;525;537;586;597 It is possible to get sting route_ref:De_Lijn=8;9;284 from keys in database *route_ref:De_Lijn:8=yes* *route_ref:De_Lijn:9=yes* *route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes* I want to see bolded keys in database directly, for now tag with short key and multuple namespaced tags may duplicate each other. But you will also benefit from this. As I said previously, you can use queries like this: *route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes and **route_ref:De_Lijn:10!=** — this query will capture missing 10 and present 284. You will spend hours for learning regexes for yourself and teaching other users how to use regex. Now, after you realized 10 was missing, you have to enter this value at correct position in 1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317; 333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395; 520;524;525;537;586;597. You have sorted values already. But you dont need sorting to paste new tag *route_ref:De_Lijn:10=yes. JOSM may sort or even hide tags for you, don't do computer job.* Also you get benefits from taginfo if your keys *route_ref:De_Lijn: *are popular, you can redirect taginfo users to wiki page about your project or tagging scheme. Back to your problem. After tags are in database, you may develop universal plugin for JOSM that will do very simple thing: for defined set of tags (*route_ref:De_Lijn:, fuel:, cruisine: *and others) it will glue their values together only for you. You may edit them as usual, but after it should somehow (it will be less tricky than everyone learn regex and ;; escaping) convert this string to the original keys. Does this make sense for you? Will you adapt this approach? 2015-01-21 13:42 GMT+03:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: The 'new' public transport scheme actually has 'binary' keys for bus, tram, train, etc. When you ask to have it rendered, one of the arguments for not doing so is that those extra fields are not imported in the DB specifically set up for rendering. It's considered too complicated, even though the system is better designed than what we started out with. Just to add to the discussion that binary keys for all possible options are apparently not always the solution either. In any case, it's not impossible to work with ; delimited lists, but it's enough if we try to limit their use. Just don't try to eradicate them, they do have their use. I wouldn't want to have to add: route_ref:318=yes route_ref:616=yes or route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:1=yes route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:2=yes ... instead of this: route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597 Polyglot 2015-01-21 11:08 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia? This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging: traffic_calming:table=yes traffic_calming:chocker=yes Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to traffic_calming = table; choker to get support in legacy software or outdated tools? We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually tables chockers): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abandoned http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010. I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now: cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware *And actual tags for new software and presets* cuisine:japanse=yes cuisine:chinese=yes This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned. Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X. 2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ? I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road. Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ? If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2 2015-01-21 8:09 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] ml-node+s19327n5830778...@n5.nabble.com: traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia? This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging: traffic_calming:table=yes traffic_calming:chocker=yes Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to traffic_calming = table; choker to get support in legacy software or outdated tools? We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually tables chockers): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abandoned http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010. I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now: cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware *And actual tags for new software and presets* cuisine:japanse=yes cuisine:chinese=yes This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned. Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X. 2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=0: How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ? I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road. Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ? If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys... regards m. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=1 wrote: Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions. Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for coin without finding bitcoin. If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added. My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach *any regex* to josm user or id user. We don't use multiple values for many things: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway#Values ... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers. I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over *key:semanticsubtag=value*. For the latter: - you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search - you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language - you can make wiki page about it - you can send this link page to newbie - you can be sure about meaning of this value Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using : in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted. Actually not that bad: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fueldirection=nextoldid=400799 was here since 2010. Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please No I didn't. Quote them. PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages. 2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=2: Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please STOP this thread everyone. Please. 2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=3: Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world. We care about data we map. We document it instead of guessing by taginfo. We use real tags instead of regexes for users. We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes simply to map things around them. I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I will revert them. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme. The
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
The 'new' public transport scheme actually has 'binary' keys for bus, tram, train, etc. When you ask to have it rendered, one of the arguments for not doing so is that those extra fields are not imported in the DB specifically set up for rendering. It's considered too complicated, even though the system is better designed than what we started out with. Just to add to the discussion that binary keys for all possible options are apparently not always the solution either. In any case, it's not impossible to work with ; delimited lists, but it's enough if we try to limit their use. Just don't try to eradicate them, they do have their use. I wouldn't want to have to add: route_ref:318=yes route_ref:616=yes or route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:1=yes route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:2=yes ... instead of this: route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597 Polyglot 2015-01-21 11:08 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia? This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging: traffic_calming:table=yes traffic_calming:chocker=yes Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to traffic_calming = table; choker to get support in legacy software or outdated tools? We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually tables chockers): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abandoned http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010. I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now: cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware *And actual tags for new software and presets* cuisine:japanse=yes cuisine:chinese=yes This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned. Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X. 2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ? I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road. Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ? If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys... regards m. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions. Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for coin without finding bitcoin. If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added. My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach *any regex* to josm user or id user. We don't use multiple values for many things: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway#Values ... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers. I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over *key:semanticsubtag=value*. For the latter: - you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search - you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language - you can make wiki page about it - you can send this link page to newbie - you can be sure about meaning of this value Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using : in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted. Actually not that bad: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fueldirection=nextoldid=400799 was here since 2010. Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please No I didn't. Quote them. PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages. 2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please STOP this thread everyone. Please. 2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work We easily revert these edits in
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2 cuisine data is clean is *easy to query right now. *It may get more complicated at every moment. Better try to query for 13 in ref=3;10;13;113;133 without loosing your sanity. Next day I will add ref=3;10;13;113;133;13E — will you update your query? My query will always correct: ref=13 No matter how many 113 or 13A or 13/1 or 13-1 you may want to add. OSM is not about writing regexes, it is about defining meaining in key=values and documenting them at wiki. We did this way before 2010. Our current tools (JOSM, overpass, taginfo, osmosis, iD, presets in JOSM and iD, any other sane tool) and documentation (wiki) are key-sentric, not- *something-in-the-middle-of-value*-centric 2015-01-21 14:38 GMT+03:00 jgpacker john.pack...@gmail.com: Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2 2015-01-21 8:09 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830795i=0: traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia? This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging: traffic_calming:table=yes traffic_calming:chocker=yes Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to traffic_calming = table; choker to get support in legacy software or outdated tools? We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually tables chockers): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abandoned http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010. I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now: cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware *And actual tags for new software and presets* cuisine:japanse=yes cuisine:chinese=yes This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned. Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X. 2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=0: How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ? I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road. Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ? If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys... regards m. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=1 wrote: Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions. Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for coin without finding bitcoin. If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added. My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach *any regex* to josm user or id user. We don't use multiple values for many things: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway#Values ... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers. I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over *key:semanticsubtag=value*. For the latter: - you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search - you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language - you can make wiki page about it - you can send this link page to newbie - you can be sure about meaning of this value Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using : in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted. Actually not that bad: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fueldirection=nextoldid=400799 was here since 2010. Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please No I didn't. Quote them. PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages. 2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830778i=2: Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please STOP this thread everyone.
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Please calm down. And do not insult other people. Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions. Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for coin without finding bitcoin. If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added. regards m [1] http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/ On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 9:06 AM, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and one you really are not going to stamp out. You missing the point. I do aware of POSIX standard. I do aware of perl quirks and overengineered regex syntax. JOSM uses Java. There no command line wiht perl in Java. STOP your insane perl advocating. FIRST you teach users who use JOSM and ID who to use regexes LATER we will listen to you. If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as amenity=school you are wrong. OSM is not for you. If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work. I don't really care if tagging pracites among English-speaking users so undeveloped and pathetic. Actually I don't care if English speaking world will not have tools to use data they enter. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Tag:shop%3Dticket 2015-01-21 10:53 GMT+03:00 David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net: On Wed, 2015-01-21 at 09:35 +0300, Никита wrote: Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features that support bitcoins or coins as currency Come on please ! This is getting quite silly. regexes are a basic part of the *nix and therefore internet world. Sure they are cryptic and hard to deal with by those who don't regularly use them but if we stopped regexe right now a lot more than OSM would stop working ! Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and one you really are not going to stamp out. David http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20% 22payment:bitcoin%22=%22yes%22 Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag: payment:bitcoint=* and payment:litecoin!=* Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins: (payment:bitcoint=* or payment:litecoin=*) and payment:coint!=* If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please write an regex to filter email address from plain text. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. Nonsense like any of your words. How taginfo is for developers? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values How wiki page is for developers? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:payment:coinsredirect=no 2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote: You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There always pattern that will broke your regex. E.g.? You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote: If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you. If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work. While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work. The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance . Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along. We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work around. But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger. - Nadjita ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world. We care about data we map. We document it instead of guessing by taginfo. We use real tags instead of regexes for users. We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes simply to map things around them. I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I will revert them. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance . There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there differences, so what? Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along. You forgot to say among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation. I don't care about them. We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work around. And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things with REGEX. 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita tagg...@mark.reidel.info: On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote: If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you. If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work. While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work. The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance . Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along. We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work around. But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger. - Nadjita ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please STOP this thread everyone. Please. 2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world. We care about data we map. We document it instead of guessing by taginfo. We use real tags instead of regexes for users. We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes simply to map things around them. I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I will revert them. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance . There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there differences, so what? Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along. You forgot to say among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation. I don't care about them. We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work around. And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things with REGEX. 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita tagg...@mark.reidel.info: On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote: If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you. If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work. While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work. The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance . Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along. We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work around. But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger. - Nadjita ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and one you really are not going to stamp out. You missing the point. I do aware of POSIX standard. I do aware of perl quirks and overengineered regex syntax. JOSM uses Java. There no command line wiht perl in Java. STOP your insane perl advocating. FIRST you teach users who use JOSM and ID who to use regexes LATER we will listen to you. If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as amenity=school you are wrong. OSM is not for you. If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work. I don't really care if tagging pracites among English-speaking users so undeveloped and pathetic. Actually I don't care if English speaking world will not have tools to use data they enter. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Tag:shop%3Dticket 2015-01-21 10:53 GMT+03:00 David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net: On Wed, 2015-01-21 at 09:35 +0300, Никита wrote: Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features that support bitcoins or coins as currency Come on please ! This is getting quite silly. regexes are a basic part of the *nix and therefore internet world. Sure they are cryptic and hard to deal with by those who don't regularly use them but if we stopped regexe right now a lot more than OSM would stop working ! Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and one you really are not going to stamp out. David http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20% 22payment:bitcoin%22=%22yes%22 Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag: payment:bitcoint=* and payment:litecoin!=* Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins: (payment:bitcoint=* or payment:litecoin=*) and payment:coint!=* If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please write an regex to filter email address from plain text. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. Nonsense like any of your words. How taginfo is for developers? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values How wiki page is for developers? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:payment:coinsredirect=no 2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote: You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There always pattern that will broke your regex. E.g.? You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Hi, On 01/21/2015 12:07 PM, Никита wrote: *route_ref:De_Lijn:8=yes* *route_ref:De_Lijn:9=yes* *route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes* I want to see bolded keys in database directly No. Relations have been invented specifically to avoid this. Conceputally, the value space should not overflow into the key space. While we allow arbitrary keys, we still want them to be keys, not a mixture of keys and values. We don't want name:Main Street=yes. No matter what one thinks about semicolon lists, the above is clearly worse. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Andy Mabbett wrote: Are any of the list's moderators reading? Please see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/021249.html Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830819.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Please a) stop insulting people and using hyperbolic language b) quote, and snip, properly rather than top-posting and repeating the entire previous message As you can see from https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I have administrative powers on this list, and if this thread continues in this vein I will use them. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830806.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
We don't want name:Main Street=yes. You are mixing everything in key, this is not what I suggest. fullsemantickey=fullsemangicvalue shouldn't be moved to fullsemantickey:fullsemangicvalue=yes This makes to sense, now you have to parse key instead of value... I only talk about separating key=*part-of-value-withown-meaining1;* *part-of-value-withown-meaining2;part-of-value-withown-meaining3;* *part-of-value-withown-meaining4* into separate keys key:semanticsubkey1=yes key:semanticsubkey2=yes key:semanticsubkey3=yes key:semanticsubkey4=yes and not key:value=yes — this is horrible and impossible to query similar to multivalued keys key=parsemevalue1;parsemevalue2;parsemevalue3 — this is also impossible to query (realistically, not with regexes) But it also wrong if you remove all flexibility of multiple keys under really-log-unusable-value simply because we have relations for that realson. Relations are fine, but keys are easier to understand for newbies and query. Instead of regexes you have to learn about querying only for relations, querying only for members with specific roles. This is donable, but this takes time. This is imporlant. *Roles are not accessible by our documentation or tools*. We cannot use this in presets or localize strings for it. There no difference in documentation for building=yes if it is with role 'inner' or 'address'. Users should decide when to really use ';'. But we should discourage them from using it everywhere. It was proposal multiple times by many users already: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:abandoneddiff=nextoldid=878767 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:disuseddiff=nextoldid=862845 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Semi-colon_value_separatordiff=prevoldid=1113856 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:is_indiff=prevoldid=67210#Problems_of_accuracy Again, see millionshighways with only 1 value http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/highway#values Many name tags with only 1 value http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=name Actually there very-very few examples where this can make sense: ref=3;4 — reference roads with same meaning. There way more reference systems than you may think http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:refoldid=1129065 opening_hours — this is very specific key you have to process/parse its value each time, you can query opening_hours=24/7, but this tag is more complex than simple tag to tag 24/7 feature lanes — used to indicate lanes, with specific order, left-to-right http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=lanes Can somebody continue this list of exceptions? 2015-01-21 15:23 GMT+03:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, On 01/21/2015 12:07 PM, Никита wrote: *route_ref:De_Lijn:8=yes* *route_ref:De_Lijn:9=yes* *route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes* I want to see bolded keys in database directly No. Relations have been invented specifically to avoid this. Conceputally, the value space should not overflow into the key space. While we allow arbitrary keys, we still want them to be keys, not a mixture of keys and values. We don't want name:Main Street=yes. No matter what one thinks about semicolon lists, the above is clearly worse. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Click on the dots, ctrl-a, delete. It's a lot easier than regex. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I agree. Sorry, I thought the previous messages we renecessary so the server could find out the who answered to who and to which thread this belongs. So when you said snip the message, I thought of quoting the part you are answering and not of excluding previous emails. 2015-01-21 12:51 GMT-02:00 Richard Mann-2 [via GIS] ml-node+s19327n5830843...@n5.nabble.com: Click on the dots, ctrl-a, delete. It's a lot easier than regex. ___ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=5830843i=0 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830843.html To unsubscribe from Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists, click here http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_codenode=5830523code=am9obi5wYWNrZXI3QGdtYWlsLmNvbXw1ODMwNTIzfDE2OTE1MDgzODE= . NAML http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewerid=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.namlbase=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespacebreadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830846.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 21 January 2015 at 02:16, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Ad hominem. Wow. You are so low. Then: You are not only ignorant but annoying person. There no place for your proganda or your unjustified claims. and: And you are egoiste who poison OSM database with garbage data. Are any of the list's moderators reading? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Better try to query for 13 in ref=3;10;13;113;133 without loosing your sanity. Next day I will add ref=3;10;13;113;133;13E — will you update your query? I believe the following regular expression is enough for both examples: ref ~ \b13\b \b means word boundary (any character that starts or ends a word, such as space, colon, semicolon, etc) However, word boundaries can be slow and are not recommended if you need to search large areas (e.g. whole world, germany or similar). In this case, we could use something like: ref ~ (;|^)13(;|$) which can be read as: either semicolon or the start of the value, followed by 13, followed by either semicolon or the end of the value. I would recommend to also allow a space before 13 (because people sometimes like to add an extra space after the semicolon), making it: ref ~ (;|^| )13(;|$) Note: For technical reasons, if you need to use a word boundary in Overpass QL, use \\b (you need to escape the backslash character). This is not the case in Overpass XML. PS: I don't know Perl and don't want to learn it. Regular expression is a common feature in mature programming languages. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830838.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Please snip the message to which you are replying to reduce it to the minimum required. The problem might be that some mail programs (such a gmail), just reduce the included message to a button with 3 dots. So, one might not be aware that there are hundreds of lines under it. regards m. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
jgpacker wrote: [8 lines of text plus 240 lines of quote] Repeated request: Please snip the message to which you are replying to reduce it to the minimum required. Anyone continuing to post disproportionately formatted messages like this will be removed from the list. Thank you. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830833.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
\b means word boundary (any character that starts or ends a word, such as space, colon, semicolon, etc) However, word boundaries can be slow and are not recommended if you need to search large areas (e.g. whole world, germany or similar). In this case, we could use something like: ref ~ (;|^)13(;|$) Well I don't to discuss regexes actually. I learn nothing from your words. It will not help newbies at all. There lot of complexity in OSM already, starting from GPS collection to complicated tags and their poor documentation at wiki. I see no reason to complicate things with introducing any king of regex. Regular mappers get nothing from regex you wrote. Dollar means currency is USA, nothing else. 1;2;4;5;6;7;8 - just find missing 3 here, with any regex. I will not continue discussion about it with you actually. Regexes miss set logic, regex miss default and missing values. As you mentioned they require processing power. It will eat all of your cpu. If you don't trust me just ask any DB admin is it good idea to query values in database using regexes. I'm sorry, I don't believe you are entitled to speak for the whole Russian comunity. in fact, you have the same communication issues with Russian mappers as with this mailing list. Ad hominem. So what? I speak only for myself and my observations. If you cannot follow links I were mentioning thats not my fault. How this is relevant to tagging guideline at all? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 19.01.2015 12:10, Richard Z. wrote: ##== Disadvantages of semicolon separated lists == ##* parsing of values is required sure parsing is required. How terribly difficult is it to split a string by ;? It's trivial. Xxzme is one of those mappers who try to design tagging rules which simplify software development, by making assumptions instead of asking those who know. The resulting tagging rules are actually a burden for both mappers and developers alike. People like him would better focus on aspects they are familiar with. OSM is a collaborative project after all. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Friedrich Volkmann Ad hominem. Wow. You are so low. , by making assumptions instead of asking those who know. This is called data analys. Statistics. Numbers. There nobody to ask if users prefer one method over another. The resulting tagging rules are actually a burden for both mappers and developers alike. Have you ever seen what resulted opening_hours? Do you have at least slight idea how many hours were spent on this library https://github.com/AMDmi3/opening_hours.js? You are not only ignorant but annoying person. There no place for your proganda or your unjustified claims. OSM is a collaborative project after all. And you are egoiste who poison OSM database with garbage data. Unusable by other mappers or developers. 2015-01-21 5:37 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: On 19.01.2015 12:10, Richard Z. wrote: ##== Disadvantages of semicolon separated lists == ##* parsing of values is required sure parsing is required. How terribly difficult is it to split a string by ;? It's trivial. Xxzme is one of those mappers who try to design tagging rules which simplify software development, by making assumptions instead of asking those who know. The resulting tagging rules are actually a burden for both mappers and developers alike. People like him would better focus on aspects they are familiar with. OSM is a collaborative project after all. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 21.01.2015 02:51, Никита wrote:
payment=efectivo;visa;mastercard;american␣express
payment=mastercard;visa;efectivo
Now try to find *efectivo *with your regexes.
With a perl regex:
^[^=]+=(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$
Usually you only have the value in your variable, so you only need:
^(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$
But it's better programming style to split the values into arrays before you
work with them, like (in perl):
$_-{single_vals} = split /;/, $_-{compound_val} for keys @tags;
Then you need no regexp at all for your comparisons.
How to query for payment:efectivo=yes? I definitely need regex here.
You have to be aware of values like 1, true, unknown etc.
--
Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
You don't know regexes and theory behind them. I don't care about your
one-line perl hacks.
You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users. You are insane to
write these things as argument for using ;.
You will always fail when I add more data to database. There always pattern
that will broke your regex. But you are guy with rope.
I just an idiot who knows that literal sting payment:efectivo=yes
requires no
computational power other than index search.
There no regex to write for payment:efectivo=yes at all. JOSM and
overpass will understand this query right now, without any modification.
You have to be aware of values like 1, true, unknown etc.
SO WHAT? How this is relevant to '''; usage in value at all? Have you ever
seen numbers in database? Do you too busy with your regexes? What are you
talking about?
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/payment%3Acoins=yes - 26 37395.32%
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/payment%3Acoins=no 1 142 4.13%
2015-01-21 6:13 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at:
On 21.01.2015 02:51, Никита wrote:
payment=efectivo;visa;mastercard;american␣express
payment=mastercard;visa;efectivo
Now try to find *efectivo *with your regexes.
With a perl regex:
^[^=]+=(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$
Usually you only have the value in your variable, so you only need:
^(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$
But it's better programming style to split the values into arrays before
you
work with them, like (in perl):
$_-{single_vals} = split /;/, $_-{compound_val} for keys @tags;
Then you need no regexp at all for your comparisons.
How to query for payment:efectivo=yes? I definitely need regex here.
You have to be aware of values like 1, true, unknown etc.
--
Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
E.g.? Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features that support bitcoins or coins as currency http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%22payment:bitcoin%22=%22yes%22 Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag: payment:bitcoint=* and payment:litecoin!=* Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins: (payment:bitcoint=* or payment:litecoin=*) and payment:coint!=* If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please write an regex to filter email address from plain text. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. Nonsense like any of your words. How taginfo is for developers? http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values How wiki page is for developers? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:payment:coinsredirect=no 2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote: You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There always pattern that will broke your regex. E.g.? You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote: You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There always pattern that will broke your regex. E.g.? You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users. Probably because these are for developers, not for users. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
If I had to guess, I would think that most people find the second alternative much more complicated than the first one. Oops, my bad; that's actually what I meant. I agree with you. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830558.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
route_ref=(^|.+;)26(;.+|$) I haven't tested this, but usually you can safely remove the .+, shortening it to route_ref=(^|;)26(;|$) i.e. start of string OR semicolon, followed by 26, followed by end of string OR semicolon. You can further shorten it to route_ref=26 if you don't need to make sure that it's only 26 instead of X26, 26Y, X26Y or similar (which I believe is more common in semicolon-separated lists that are not numbers). I still find it better than to search in JOSM for something like route_ref:^26$ OR route_ref1:^26$ OR route_ref2:^26$ Yes, you would need to explicitly search for every alternative because most tools don't have support for regexes in the left side of the tag (i.e. the key). Cheers, John -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830567.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Hi, On 01/19/2015 11:03 AM, NopMap wrote: On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either. Some of the examples have their merit. Revert the lot (which has been already done) and then step by step weave in the examples that have merit, in a neutral language (i.e. not some mappers still use... etc.) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I support the revert. The edits by Xxzme are in my opinion completely unacceptable. Best regards, Martin 2015-01-19 11:03 GMT+01:00 NopMap ekkeh...@gmx.de: There seems to be an edit war on the wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Avoid_semi-colon_value_separator I personally think that the problem has been discussed many times and it is well understood that semicolon lists only work for some special tags and would generally be discarded as invalid values. Some of the more tricky problems like undefined order are harder to grasp. So making the problem as clear as possible in the wiki has its merits. However, the changes were somewhat extreme - especially the change of the page name would rather be hiding information. And they are not backed up by a link to any discussion. On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either. Some of the examples have their merit. What do you think? bye, Nop -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
I understand that the main tags of an object should avoid using semicolons to make map renderer's life easier, but I don't think only exceptional tags should use it and think most lists of values should be separated by semicolon. Particularly, I don't see how the example given in the page is better. I.e. How is this: amenity=library library:stock=books;newspapers;recorded_music better than this?: amenity=library library:stock:books=yes library:stock:newspapers=yes library:stock:recorded_music=yes As a programmer, I find the first alternative to be easier to handle by a data consumer. And while it could be slightly easier for a mapper to visualize the second alternative (and this is debatable), it would take longer to write it down. So I definitely disagree with In general avoid ';' separated values whenever possible. (as it's said in the wiki right now). I only agree with avoiding semicolons in main tags or in tags that logically shouldn't have multiple values. Cheers, John -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830550.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists
Hi! 2015-01-19 12:34 GMT+01:00 jgpacker john.pack...@gmail.com: I.e. How is this: amenity=library library:stock=books;newspapers;recorded_music better than this?: amenity=library library:stock:books=yes library:stock:newspapers=yes library:stock:recorded_music=yes As a programmer, I find the first alternative to be easier to handle by a data consumer. And while it could be slightly easier for a mapper to visualize the second alternative (and this is debatable), it would take longer to write it down. If I had to guess, I would think that most people find the second alternative much more complicated than the first one. So I definitely disagree with In general avoid ';' separated values whenever possible. (as it's said in the wiki right now). I only agree with avoiding semicolons in main tags or in tags that logically shouldn't have multiple values. Fully agree! Best regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
