Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-03-09 19:24 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :

> Big box refers to the building form factor.
>


+1, big box is a building typology (literally a big box, usually
freestanding and surrounded by huge parking lots, with some mega-retail
inside).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Paul Johnson]

On Mar 9, 2018 00:17, "Johnparis"  wrote:

Typically they will, for example, sell detergent in boxes of 5 kg instead
of 1 kg. Or a liter of ketchup. Hence the (USA) term "big box". So they are
"wholesale-sized" but not wholesale in the sense of their sales mechanism.
(The wholesale=* tag is for wholesalers.)


Big box refers to the building form factor.  Costco is a big box.  But so
is Lowe's, Walmart Supercenter, Home Depot, Office Depot, Dick's, Staples,
Kohl's, Sam's Club, Best Buy, Petco, Target…pretty much anything that would
occupy an anchor slot or larger if it were in a traditional mall and favors
generic, big, boxy, windowless buildings.
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Johnparis]

wholesale=* (not wholesaler=*) is in the never-approved shop=wholesale
proposal and has 677 usages.

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wholesale#values

Perhaps a wiki entry for wholesale=* is needed, with cross-references
between that and shop=wholesale

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:55 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Any more opinions how to handle it? Would we better "kick out" wholesale
>> from shop or change the definition for shop?
>>
>
> My feeling, as an English speaker, is that a wholesaler is not a retailer,
> and that shop=wholesale is a contradiction.
>
> We already make a distinction between shops (selling goods) and offices
> (selling services, though other types of office exist).  I'd go with
> wholesaler=*.  And maybe expand access to access=trade (wholesaler deals
> only with registered traders) and access=public (anyone can shop there).
> Something along those lines.
>
> Of course, there will always be grey areas.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Johnparis]

Regarding Althio's comment:

This is exactly the sort of confusion caused by using the word "wholesale"
in shop=wholesale.

These are not wholesalers. They are retailers who use the word "wholesale"
as a marketing tool. (Even if the parent company has wholesale activities,
these particular premises sell at retail.)

Typically they will, for example, sell detergent in boxes of 5 kg instead
of 1 kg. Or a liter of ketchup. Hence the (USA) term "big box". So they are
"wholesale-sized" but not wholesale in the sense of their sales mechanism.
(The wholesale=* tag is for wholesalers.)

I would not change the definition of shop to avoid retail. "shop=wholesale"
describes a particular kind of retailer. (We might want to add that last
sentence to the wiki.)

John



On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 8:34 AM, althio  wrote:

>
> I am happy with shop=wholesale and would prefer to change slightly the
> definitions and descriptions ["A place selling products or services", no
> mention of retail] on pages
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shops
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
>
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Thilo Haug OSM]

I agree with those statements :

What they sell (e.g. clothes, groceries, only in bulk packaging) or if
access is restricted (specific times, only certain group of people) are
separate concerns
*and should be tagged separately*.

Am 06.03.2018 um 18:55 schrieb Paul Allen:
We already make a distinction between shops (selling goods) and offices
(selling services, though other types of office exist).  I'd go with
wholesaler=*.  *And maybe expand* access to access=trade (wholesaler
deals only with registered traders) and access=public (anyone can shop
there).  Something along those lines.

Of course, there will always be grey areas.

-- 
Paul

 
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[althio]

I am happy with shop=wholesale and would prefer to change slightly the
definitions and descriptions ["A place selling products or services", no
mention of retail] on pages
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shops
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[osm.tagging]

Addendum: My personal mental definition of a “shop” is a “a place you can show 
up without appointment, pick from available wares, pay on exit, and directly 
take the thing you bought home”. 

 

What they sell (e.g. clothes, groceries, only in bulk packaging) or if access 
is restricted (specific times, only certain group of people) are separate 
concerns and should be tagged separately.

 

From: osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
[mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au] 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2018 17:07
To: 'Tag discussion, strategy and related tools' <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

 

The term “Big-box store” is not one I’ve ever heard used in Australia, and is 
not something that I would immediately associated with something like Costco. 
Given that the existing tag is already in widespread (and largely correct) 
usage and possibly specifically supported by existing software, I don’t really 
see a good reason for changing it to something else just for the heck of it.

 

I think all that should be needed is to amend the documentation to make it 
clear that it is only for places that are “Wholesale/warehouse club or cash and 
carry - a store that sells items in bulk” (I would leave out the “to 
retailers”, any access limitations should be described by different tags) and 
not “actual” wholesalers (which should use the wholesale=* tag), and then 
correct any possibly wrongly tagged data that already exist.

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Johnparis [mailto:ok...@johnfreed.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2018 16:10
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org 
<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> >
Subject: Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

 

Must agree with Thorsten and Stefano.

 

The proposal referenced by Martin is just that: a proposal. From 2011-12. Never 
approved.

 

The wiki page (created 2015) makes clear that the actual key, in use, refers to 
shops like Costco, which btw is the same in the US as the Australian version. 
See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features (which alludes to the 
Costco-style shop).

 

Perhaps the (never approved) proposal page should make clear that (a) it was 
not approved, (b) it is not in use. And (c) it should refer to the actual wiki 
page.

 

Alternatively, this type of store is sometimes called a "big box" retailer in 
the US. I would not oppose a shop=big_box alternative to supplant 
shop=wholesale. Or even hypermarket (the French term is hypermarché) or 
superstore. But in any case there is always going to be some confusion.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store

 

I would agree that a wholesaler's office and/or warehouse should not use this 
tag (unless of course the warehouse also sells on site to the general public or 
its membership, in which case it is indeed a shop).

 

I glanced at the 1000 or so existing uses of the tag, and a large number seem 
to have names suggesting correct usage (Costco, Sam's Warehouse, xxx Cash & 
Carry, etc.)

 

So it seems to me that the problem is not the tag, but rather the proposal page 
that Martin cited.

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 PM, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> > wrote:

Here in Australia, I would consider “Costco” to be a “shop”. And they name 
themselves as “Costco Wholesale”. While they do require a membership, that 
membership is open to anyone without restrictions. Except for the need of a 
membership (which they happily sell you for 60 bucks the first time you come 
buy) there is no appreciable difference between shopping at Costco or any other 
retailer. (And people use the term shopping or grocery shopping in relation to 
going to Costco.)

 

I personally think that “shop=wholesale” is a reasonable tag for Costcos in 
Australia (and I think the same applies in the US, membership open to anyone 
without restrictions. Same for Sam’s Club and others I think).

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2018 03:40
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org 
<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> >
Subject: Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

 

 

 

2018-02-28 15:49 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes <p...@trigpoint.me.uk 
<mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk> >:

Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail. 

Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.

 

indeed. Now, this conflict doesn't seem to interest many people, besides you 
there was only one commenter here. Any more opinions how to handle it? Would we 
better "kick out" wholesale from shop or change the definition for shop? 

Cheers,

Marti

Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[osm.tagging]

The term “Big-box store” is not one I’ve ever heard used in Australia, and is 
not something that I would immediately associated with something like Costco. 
Given that the existing tag is already in widespread (and largely correct) 
usage and possibly specifically supported by existing software, I don’t really 
see a good reason for changing it to something else just for the heck of it.

 

I think all that should be needed is to amend the documentation to make it 
clear that it is only for places that are “Wholesale/warehouse club or cash and 
carry - a store that sells items in bulk” (I would leave out the “to 
retailers”, any access limitations should be described by different tags) and 
not “actual” wholesalers (which should use the wholesale=* tag), and then 
correct any possibly wrongly tagged data that already exist.

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Johnparis [mailto:ok...@johnfreed.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2018 16:10
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

 

Must agree with Thorsten and Stefano.

 

The proposal referenced by Martin is just that: a proposal. From 2011-12. Never 
approved.

 

The wiki page (created 2015) makes clear that the actual key, in use, refers to 
shops like Costco, which btw is the same in the US as the Australian version. 
See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features (which alludes to the 
Costco-style shop).

 

Perhaps the (never approved) proposal page should make clear that (a) it was 
not approved, (b) it is not in use. And (c) it should refer to the actual wiki 
page.

 

Alternatively, this type of store is sometimes called a "big box" retailer in 
the US. I would not oppose a shop=big_box alternative to supplant 
shop=wholesale. Or even hypermarket (the French term is hypermarché) or 
superstore. But in any case there is always going to be some confusion.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store

 

I would agree that a wholesaler's office and/or warehouse should not use this 
tag (unless of course the warehouse also sells on site to the general public or 
its membership, in which case it is indeed a shop).

 

I glanced at the 1000 or so existing uses of the tag, and a large number seem 
to have names suggesting correct usage (Costco, Sam's Warehouse, xxx Cash & 
Carry, etc.)

 

So it seems to me that the problem is not the tag, but rather the proposal page 
that Martin cited.

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 PM, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> > wrote:

Here in Australia, I would consider “Costco” to be a “shop”. And they name 
themselves as “Costco Wholesale”. While they do require a membership, that 
membership is open to anyone without restrictions. Except for the need of a 
membership (which they happily sell you for 60 bucks the first time you come 
buy) there is no appreciable difference between shopping at Costco or any other 
retailer. (And people use the term shopping or grocery shopping in relation to 
going to Costco.)

 

I personally think that “shop=wholesale” is a reasonable tag for Costcos in 
Australia (and I think the same applies in the US, membership open to anyone 
without restrictions. Same for Sam’s Club and others I think).

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2018 03:40
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org 
<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> >
Subject: Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

 

 

 

2018-02-28 15:49 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes <p...@trigpoint.me.uk 
<mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk> >:

Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail. 

Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.

 

indeed. Now, this conflict doesn't seem to interest many people, besides you 
there was only one commenter here. Any more opinions how to handle it? Would we 
better "kick out" wholesale from shop or change the definition for shop? 

Cheers,

Martin


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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Johnparis]

Must agree with Thorsten and Stefano.

The proposal referenced by Martin is just that: a proposal. From 2011-12.
Never approved.

The wiki page (created 2015) makes clear that the actual key, in use,
refers to shops like Costco, which btw is the same in the US as the
Australian version. See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.
org/wiki/Map_Features (which alludes to the Costco-style shop).

Perhaps the (never approved) proposal page should make clear that (a) it
was not approved, (b) it is not in use. And (c) it should refer to the
actual wiki page.

Alternatively, this type of store is sometimes called a "big box" retailer
in the US. I would not oppose a shop=big_box alternative to supplant
shop=wholesale. Or even hypermarket (the French term is hypermarché) or
superstore. But in any case there is always going to be some confusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store

I would agree that a wholesaler's office and/or warehouse should not use
this tag (unless of course the warehouse also sells on site to the general
public or its membership, in which case it is indeed a shop).

I glanced at the 1000 or so existing uses of the tag, and a large number
seem to have names suggesting correct usage (Costco, Sam's Warehouse, xxx
Cash & Carry, etc.)

So it seems to me that the problem is not the tag, but rather the proposal
page that Martin cited.





On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 PM, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> wrote:

> Here in Australia, I would consider “Costco” to be a “shop”. And they name
> themselves as “Costco Wholesale”. While they do require a membership, that
> membership is open to anyone without restrictions. Except for the need of a
> membership (which they happily sell you for 60 bucks the first time you
> come buy) there is no appreciable difference between shopping at Costco or
> any other retailer. (And people use the term shopping or grocery shopping
> in relation to going to Costco.)
>
>
>
> I personally think that “shop=wholesale” is a reasonable tag for Costcos
> in Australia (and I think the same applies in the US, membership open to
> anyone without restrictions. Same for Sam’s Club and others I think).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thorsten
>
>
>
> *From:* Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 7 March 2018 03:40
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale"
> value
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2018-02-28 15:49 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes <p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:
>
> Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail.
>
> Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.
>
>
>
> indeed. Now, this conflict doesn't seem to interest many people, besides
> you there was only one commenter here. Any more opinions how to handle it?
> Would we better "kick out" wholesale from shop or change the definition for
> shop?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[osm.tagging]

Here in Australia, I would consider “Costco” to be a “shop”. And they name 
themselves as “Costco Wholesale”. While they do require a membership, that 
membership is open to anyone without restrictions. Except for the need of a 
membership (which they happily sell you for 60 bucks the first time you come 
buy) there is no appreciable difference between shopping at Costco or any other 
retailer. (And people use the term shopping or grocery shopping in relation to 
going to Costco.)

 

I personally think that “shop=wholesale” is a reasonable tag for Costcos in 
Australia (and I think the same applies in the US, membership open to anyone 
without restrictions. Same for Sam’s Club and others I think).

 

Cheers,

Thorsten

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2018 03:40
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

 

 

 

2018-02-28 15:49 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes <p...@trigpoint.me.uk 
<mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk> >:

Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail. 

Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.





indeed. Now, this conflict doesn't seem to interest many people, besides you 
there was only one commenter here. Any more opinions how to handle it? Would we 
better "kick out" wholesale from shop or change the definition for shop? 

Cheers,

Martin

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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

 Any more opinions how to handle it? Would we better "kick out" wholesale
> from shop or change the definition for shop?
>

My feeling, as an English speaker, is that a wholesaler is not a retailer,
and that shop=wholesale is a contradiction.

We already make a distinction between shops (selling goods) and offices
(selling services, though other types of office exist).  I'd go with
wholesaler=*.  And maybe expand access to access=trade (wholesaler deals
only with registered traders) and access=public (anyone can shop there).
Something along those lines.

Of course, there will always be grey areas.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-28 15:49 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes :

> Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail.
>
> Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.
>



indeed. Now, this conflict doesn't seem to interest many people, besides
you there was only one commenter here. Any more opinions how to handle it?
Would we better "kick out" wholesale from shop or change the definition for
shop?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Philip Barnes]

Wholesale primarily sells to trade customers, rather than retail. 

Many will refuse to sell to normal retail customers.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 28 February 2018 12:30:38 GMT+00:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:
>2018-02-28 10:48 GMT+01:00 Stefano :
>
>> Where did you read that??
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wholesale
>>
>
>
>
>the proposal is even clearer:
>"A wholesale dealer sells large stock of items, usually to other shop
>owners and resellers."
>
>Cheers,
>Martin

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-28 10:48 GMT+01:00 Stefano :

> Where did you read that??
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wholesale
>



the proposal is even clearer:
"A wholesale dealer sells large stock of items, usually to other shop
owners and resellers."

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-28 10:48 GMT+01:00 Stefano :

>
>
> 2018-02-28 10:39 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> The wiki states that a shop is a place selling retail goods or services.
>> The value shop=wholesale, almost 1000 uses, is not fitting into this
>> definition. What shall we do?
>>
>
> Where did you read that??
> I see on
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale
> A *warehouse club * or *cash
> and carry * is
> a large store which sells items in bulk. Many warehouse clubs require a
> membership fee.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wholesale
>



for one, by the term "wholesale" used as tag value. Then there is the
wording "selling in bulk" and then there are links to wikipedia (the
significance of this could be disputed and I would be the first to agree).

Reference to the shop definition:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
"Description: A place selling retail products or services."

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] discrepancy in shop definition and "wholesale" value

[Stefano]

2018-02-28 10:39 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> The wiki states that a shop is a place selling retail goods or services.
> The value shop=wholesale, almost 1000 uses, is not fitting into this
> definition. What shall we do?
>

Where did you read that??
I see on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale
A *warehouse club * or *cash
and carry * is
a large store which sells items in bulk. Many warehouse clubs require a
membership fee.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wholesale


> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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