Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

One in our area is named "Bicycle Safety Centre" so that, or Bicycle Safety
Training Centre, may be an option?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[José G Moya Y .]

I like "training=traffic_education" for the ones addressed to children.
When i was on one of those, as a children, i was too young to ride a
bicycle (miniature bikes for children under six were not common in spain in
the early seventies).

So "training=cycling" is wrong, sine most of these parks are for pedestrian
education also, as someone said. training=cycling

There was one of those "traffic parks" in retiro park, Madrid. It was
flooded and turned into an artificial lake in the nineties.

According to my memories and the photo imaginery, there is one of these at
the "Veredillas Park" of Torrejón de Ardoz, Madrid, Spain. I've just added
a note about it on the map.
See:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/58341755#map=19/40.46607/-3.46959



El 23/4/2018 16:31, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> escribió:

[TIC] training=practical_application_of_traffic_rules



*From:* Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, 23 April 2018 22:20

*To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
*Subject:* Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on
simulating road network



2018-04-23 13:03 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen <pla16...@gmail.com>:



I'd prefer something more structured than duck tagging a crowded amenity
tag, simply because we're likely to
encounter more types of training as time goes by.  amenity=training +
training=cycling works for me.



as you can train almost everything, we could make "training" "new"[1] key.

The proposed "training=cycling" already has everything, there is nothing
added with amenity=training. Still, training=cycling is very broad in its
possible meaning, could be a racetrack for people who ride bicycle races on
the street, it could be a place where people that perform tricks with
bicycles (or skateboards, etc.) exercise, it could be a place where
downhill bikers exercise, or one where you bring the kids to learn about
basic traffic rules.

"children traffic safety education" (is a generic function, as it doesn't
state indoor, outdoor, or maybe classrooms)
"children driver training area" (is about a physical place)
"children traffic training centre"
...

As always there's the question where to use subtags for "small" differences
(e.g. traffic training for bicycles and those for cars, or in golfing
driving range vs. the green), etc. and where it makes more sense to have
"main level" different tags because things are quite different. (e.g. the
driving range is quite different from a putting green, but they share the
same specific field of endaveour, both are golf training places).

"training" comes in all kinds, sauces and context, so a new "training" key
would be one possible way to do it, but it is not how the system of
established tags works (because a lot of training already happens behind
other tags).



Cheers,

Martin



[1] It is already used 1700 times, although there isn't a definition page
yet (AFAIK): https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/training#values
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-23 15:04 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What about these?
>> amenity=traffic_training_area (for adults / cars)
>> amenity=traffic_education_area (for kids)
>>
>
> What kind of traffic?  Are those being trained cyclists, motorcyclists,
> pedestrians or what?
>



the vehicle types could be subtags, for the traffic_education_area I would
expect pedestrians and bicycles as default (=for learning basic traffic
rules and safe behaviour).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-23 14:05 GMT+02:00 Peter Elderson :

> @Martin: Hm. The traffic_partks over here are traffic training facilities.
> Training=cycling sounds to me like learning how to ride a bike (which is in
> fact a prerequisite).
>


I completely understand, training=cycling was from Paul Allen, my
suggestions were "children traffic safety education" (is a generic
function, as it doesn't state indoor, outdoor, or maybe classrooms)
"children driver training area" (is about a physical place)
"children traffic training centre"

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[osm.tagging]

[TIC] training=practical_application_of_traffic_rules

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 23 April 2018 22:20
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road 
network

 

2018-04-23 13:03 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen <pla16...@gmail.com 
<mailto:pla16...@gmail.com> >:

 

I'd prefer something more structured than duck tagging a crowded amenity tag, 
simply because we're likely to
encounter more types of training as time goes by.  amenity=training + 
training=cycling works for me. 

 

as you can train almost everything, we could make "training" "new"[1] key.

The proposed "training=cycling" already has everything, there is nothing added 
with amenity=training. Still, training=cycling is very broad in its possible 
meaning, could be a racetrack for people who ride bicycle races on the street, 
it could be a place where people that perform tricks with bicycles (or 
skateboards, etc.) exercise, it could be a place where downhill bikers 
exercise, or one where you bring the kids to learn about basic traffic rules.

"children traffic safety education" (is a generic function, as it doesn't state 
indoor, outdoor, or maybe classrooms)
"children driver training area" (is about a physical place)
"children traffic training centre"
...

As always there's the question where to use subtags for "small" differences 
(e.g. traffic training for bicycles and those for cars, or in golfing driving 
range vs. the green), etc. and where it makes more sense to have "main level" 
different tags because things are quite different. (e.g. the driving range is 
quite different from a putting green, but they share the same specific field of 
endaveour, both are golf training places).

"training" comes in all kinds, sauces and context, so a new "training" key 
would be one possible way to do it, but it is not how the system of established 
tags works (because a lot of training already happens behind other tags). 

 

Cheers,

Martin





[1] It is already used 1700 times, although there isn't a definition page yet 
(AFAIK): https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/training#values

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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What about these?
> amenity=traffic_training_area (for adults / cars)
> amenity=traffic_education_area (for kids)
>

What kind of traffic?  Are those being trained cyclists, motorcyclists,
pedestrians or what?

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Andrew Harvey]

On 23 April 2018 at 21:45, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> What about these?
> amenity=traffic_training_area (for adults / cars)
> amenity=traffic_education_area (for kids)
>

That sounds reasonable, with the second one being exactly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park, I've added two more
amenity=traffic_park's to OSM until a consensus is reached.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23. Apr 2018, at 12:10, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> The ones used for full-size cars and motorcyles are non scaled down.


for cars there might be possibilities to water a smooth surface to train 
driving in slippery conditions (could be both, a feature on its own and a 
property for the facility)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-23 13:03 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

>
> I'd prefer something more structured than duck tagging a crowded amenity
> tag, simply because we're likely to
> encounter more types of training as time goes by.  amenity=training +
> training=cycling works for me.
>


as you can train almost everything, we could make "training" "new"[1] key.

The proposed "training=cycling" already has everything, there is nothing
added with amenity=training. Still, training=cycling is very broad in its
possible meaning, could be a racetrack for people who ride bicycle races on
the street, it could be a place where people that perform tricks with
bicycles (or skateboards, etc.) exercise, it could be a place where
downhill bikers exercise, or one where you bring the kids to learn about
basic traffic rules.

"children traffic safety education" (is a generic function, as it doesn't
state indoor, outdoor, or maybe classrooms)
"children driver training area" (is about a physical place)
"children traffic training centre"
...

As always there's the question where to use subtags for "small" differences
(e.g. traffic training for bicycles and those for cars, or in golfing
driving range vs. the green), etc. and where it makes more sense to have
"main level" different tags because things are quite different. (e.g. the
driving range is quite different from a putting green, but they share the
same specific field of endaveour, both are golf training places).

"training" comes in all kinds, sauces and context, so a new "training" key
would be one possible way to do it, but it is not how the system of
established tags works (because a lot of training already happens behind
other tags).

Cheers,
Martin



[1] It is already used 1700 times, although there isn't a definition page
yet (AFAIK): https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/training#values
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[osm.tagging]

In addition to training=cycling we should probably also support 
training:cycling=yes as a single place might offer training in more than one 
field.

 

From: Paul Allen <pla16...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 23 April 2018 21:04
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road 
network

 

 

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 10:03 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

I would prefer a long descriptive term (like: "cycling_training_area") over a 
nice artificial word like "bicycle_town" which creates more questions than it 
answers.

 

I agree completely about needing a descriptive term.  From the wikipedia page 
mentioned earlier in the thread it's clear
that different countries have different names for it and none of those names 
are self-explanatory.  Terms that are

self-explanatory mean that people using an editor can look through a list of 
possible values and it's obvious which

one to use without having to resort to the OSM wiki.

I'd prefer something more structured than duck tagging a crowded amenity tag, 
simply because we're likely to
encounter more types of training as time goes by.  amenity=training + 
training=cycling works for me.  Well,

for something private like a room with expensive flight simulators used by 
airlines then I'd say it's more of

a facility than an amenity (you can't just walk in, hand over some money and 
have a play) but access=private

lets us use amenity anyway (even for NASA's astronaut training facilities).

-- 

Paul

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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Peter Elderson]

@Martin: Hm. The traffic_partks over here are traffic training facilities.
Training=cycling sounds to me like learning how to ride a bike (which is in
fact a prerequisite).

2018-04-23 13:03 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 10:03 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I would prefer a long descriptive term (like: "cycling_training_area")
>> over a nice artificial word like "bicycle_town" which creates more
>> questions than it answers.
>>
>
> I agree completely about needing a descriptive term.  From the wikipedia
> page mentioned earlier in the thread it's clear
> that different countries have different names for it and none of those
> names are self-explanatory.  Terms that are
> self-explanatory mean that people using an editor can look through a list
> of possible values and it's obvious which
> one to use without having to resort to the OSM wiki.
>
> I'd prefer something more structured than duck tagging a crowded amenity
> tag, simply because we're likely to
> encounter more types of training as time goes by.  amenity=training +
> training=cycling works for me.  Well,
> for something private like a room with expensive flight simulators used by
> airlines then I'd say it's more of
> a facility than an amenity (you can't just walk in, hand over some money
> and have a play) but access=private
> lets us use amenity anyway (even for NASA's astronaut training facilities).
>
> --
> Paul
>
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>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

What about these?
amenity=traffic_training_area (for adults / cars)
amenity=traffic_education_area (for kids)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 10:03 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I would prefer a long descriptive term (like: "cycling_training_area")
> over a nice artificial word like "bicycle_town" which creates more
> questions than it answers.
>

I agree completely about needing a descriptive term.  From the wikipedia
page mentioned earlier in the thread it's clear
that different countries have different names for it and none of those
names are self-explanatory.  Terms that are
self-explanatory mean that people using an editor can look through a list
of possible values and it's obvious which
one to use without having to resort to the OSM wiki.

I'd prefer something more structured than duck tagging a crowded amenity
tag, simply because we're likely to
encounter more types of training as time goes by.  amenity=training +
training=cycling works for me.  Well,
for something private like a room with expensive flight simulators used by
airlines then I'd say it's more of
a facility than an amenity (you can't just walk in, hand over some money
and have a play) but access=private
lets us use amenity anyway (even for NASA's astronaut training facilities).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Jo]

Things that are interesting to add as well are

fee / time period
bicycle rental
go cart rental
own bicycle allowed?

Polyglot

2018-04-23 11:13 GMT+02:00 Peter Elderson :

> The Dutch word is 'verkeerspark' (=traffic park).
>
> Some call them 'verkeerstuin'(traffic garden'), but I think that's just
> for promotion, it sounds more child-friendly in Dutch.
>
> There are variants for categories from toddlers to professional
> truckdrivers. I would use amenity=traffic_park and if needed another key
> for specification of type.
>
> 2018-04-23 9:56 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :
>
>> I have struggled with this here in Italy.
>> Maybe we should try to promote amenity=traffic_park - see [1] - eve
>> though it only has three hits in taginfo so far.
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 April 2018 at 09:12, Mateusz Konieczny 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
>>> Paul Allen  wrote:
>>>
>>> > It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
>>> > given the instruction "Think of a name
>>> > that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
>>> > the name would realize what it actually
>>> > is."
>>>
>>> Direct translation from Polish
>>> ("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
>>> neologism as a tag value.
>>>
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>>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Pieter Vander Vennet]

Oh, funny. In Bruges there is one as well. Once a tagging scheme is agreed
on, I'll tag it as well.


Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Vander Vennet

2018-04-23 11:13 GMT+02:00 Peter Elderson :

> The Dutch word is 'verkeerspark' (=traffic park).
>
> Some call them 'verkeerstuin'(traffic garden'), but I think that's just
> for promotion, it sounds more child-friendly in Dutch.
>
> There are variants for categories from toddlers to professional
> truckdrivers. I would use amenity=traffic_park and if needed another key
> for specification of type.
>
> 2018-04-23 9:56 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :
>
>> I have struggled with this here in Italy.
>> Maybe we should try to promote amenity=traffic_park - see [1] - eve
>> though it only has three hits in taginfo so far.
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 April 2018 at 09:12, Mateusz Konieczny 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
>>> Paul Allen  wrote:
>>>
>>> > It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
>>> > given the instruction "Think of a name
>>> > that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
>>> > the name would realize what it actually
>>> > is."
>>>
>>> Direct translation from Polish
>>> ("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
>>> neologism as a tag value.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Volker Schmidt]

The ones for children seem to get used not only for bicycles, but also for
pedestrian education. Then there the ones that use pedal-operated cars. I
presume that many of these are used for a mix these means of transdport.
They have in common that they are reduced in scale.
The ones used for full-size cars and motorcyles are non scaled down.
So may be a beter distinction is full-scale or reduced scale.


On 23 April 2018 at 11:13, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> The Dutch word is 'verkeerspark' (=traffic park).
>
> Some call them 'verkeerstuin'(traffic garden'), but I think that's just
> for promotion, it sounds more child-friendly in Dutch.
>
> There are variants for categories from toddlers to professional
> truckdrivers. I would use amenity=traffic_park and if needed another key
> for specification of type.
>
> 2018-04-23 9:56 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :
>
>> I have struggled with this here in Italy.
>> Maybe we should try to promote amenity=traffic_park - see [1] - eve
>> though it only has three hits in taginfo so far.
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 April 2018 at 09:12, Mateusz Konieczny 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
>>> Paul Allen  wrote:
>>>
>>> > It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
>>> > given the instruction "Think of a name
>>> > that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
>>> > the name would realize what it actually
>>> > is."
>>>
>>> Direct translation from Polish
>>> ("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
>>> neologism as a tag value.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Peter Elderson]

The Dutch word is 'verkeerspark' (=traffic park).

Some call them 'verkeerstuin'(traffic garden'), but I think that's just for
promotion, it sounds more child-friendly in Dutch.

There are variants for categories from toddlers to professional
truckdrivers. I would use amenity=traffic_park and if needed another key
for specification of type.

2018-04-23 9:56 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> I have struggled with this here in Italy.
> Maybe we should try to promote amenity=traffic_park - see [1] - eve though
> it only has three hits in taginfo so far.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park
>
>
>
> On 23 April 2018 at 09:12, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
>> Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>> > It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
>> > given the instruction "Think of a name
>> > that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
>> > the name would realize what it actually
>> > is."
>>
>> Direct translation from Polish
>> ("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
>> neologism as a tag value.
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I think we need at least 2 different tags: one for children's education
(pedestrians, cycling) and one for safety training areas for adults (cars,
motorcycles, trucks).

I would prefer a long descriptive term (like: "cycling_training_area") over
a nice artificial word like "bicycle_town" which creates more questions
than it answers.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Jo]

Now you have 4. I've been wondering about this for a long time.

Polyglot

2018-04-23 9:56 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> I have struggled with this here in Italy.
> Maybe we should try to promote amenity=traffic_park - see [1] - eve though
> it only has three hits in taginfo so far.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park
>
>
>
> On 23 April 2018 at 09:12, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
>> Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>> > It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
>> > given the instruction "Think of a name
>> > that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
>> > the name would realize what it actually
>> > is."
>>
>> Direct translation from Polish
>> ("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
>> neologism as a tag value.
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Volker Schmidt]

I have struggled with this here in Italy.
Maybe we should try to promote amenity=traffic_park - see [1] - eve though
it only has three hits in taginfo so far.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park



On 23 April 2018 at 09:12, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
> Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> > It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
> > given the instruction "Think of a name
> > that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
> > the name would realize what it actually
> > is."
>
> Direct translation from Polish
> ("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
> neologism as a tag value.
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:47:34 +0100
Paul Allen  wrote:

> It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were
> given the instruction "Think of a name
> that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw
> the name would realize what it actually
> is."

Direct translation from Polish 
("miasteczko rowerowe" -> "bicycle town") is not good enough to justify
neologism as a tag value.

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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Paul Allen]

> It turns out that it is named
>
> - traffic park
> - transportation park
> - traffic garden
> - safety village
>
> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park


But, according to that page, none of those names are used in the UK (OSM
tagging uses UK English).

I have to say that none of the names you gave, or the names that page gives
for UK usage, give any hint as
to what they really are.  If I hadn't read this thread and saw them offered
as suggestions by iD, none of them
would strike me as being the thing to use for a cycle training area.
According to that wikipedia page there are
only two such sites in the UK, so most of the UK population will never have
heard of them.

It's almost as though the people who came up with those names were given
the instruction "Think of a name
that is completely unobvious for this thing and that nobody who saw the
name would realize what it actually
is."

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:39:18 +0200
Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> Sorry, I have no idea what is the proper name for that object.

It turns out that it is named

- traffic park
- transportation park 
- traffic garden
- safety village

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_park

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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> I really dislike amenity=training as it is hopelessly broad. It would
> include everything from feature discussed here to training center for
> astronauts.
>

I thought it to be very specifically focused.  And yes, a training centre
for astronauts would be entirely appropriate
(but there aren't many of them). amenity=training + training=astronaut
seems very precise to me.  As does
amenity=training + training = cycling.  And amenity=training +
training=dance.   And amenity=training +
training=equestrian.  Better than squeezing them all under leisure or
education, which are already hopelessly
broad.

I really dislike leisure=* for it, as somebody suggested.  It's not a
leisure activity.  "What shall we do this weekend?
The park?  The cinema?  Play football?  No, let's learn to cycle.  Again."
It really doesn't fit leisure.  You might revisit
a leisure facility many times but you only learn to cycle once.

It could come under education, but that's a bit square peg/round hole.

To my mind, training involves motor skills/muscle memory to a significant
degree.  There may be some
memory/cognition skills involved (when you learn to ride a bike you need to
understand your local highway
rules) but a large part of it is learning not to fall off the bike.

Yes, there are grey areas.  There always are.  You live with that and
choose either training or education as
seems most appropriate.

Unlike the abandoned proposal, I don't think a driving school counts, not
when it's just a fancy name for
the office where the instructor does paperwork.  Not even if it has a
classroom where they teach highway rules
(that's education, not training).  But if it had a room with a full
simulator in it (mock-up of a car with controls and
virtual reality display) then that would count as a training.facility.


> In changeset discussion amenity=traffic_park was proposed, that I like but
> I suspect that it is a neologism.
>

Not just a neologism, but a confusing one.  Sounds like a posh car park to
me.  With the emphasis on the
traffic (whatever it is) being parked.  Which doesn't fit the cycle
training situation.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I really dislike amenity=training as it is hopelessly broad. It would
include everything from feature discussed here to training center for
astronauts.

In changeset discussion amenity=traffic_park was proposed, that I like but
I suspect that it is a neologism.


On Sun, 22 Apr 2018, 14:11 Paul Allen,  wrote:

>
> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Andrew Davidson 
> wrote:
>
>> Here they are called learn to ride centres and look like this:
>>
>
> I'd say that term applies to not just the marked cycle paths but also
> administrative buildings,
> toilets or whatever.  Also "learn to ride" is a specialized usage of a
> general term which
> could equally apply to motorcycling or horse riding.  If you weren't
> already familiar with
> the specialized usage in the UK (I wasn't) then it would be confusing.
>
> I can't think of any appropriate term for the marked, paved area itself,
> and google didn't
> give me any ideas.
>
> The best I can come up with as an English description is bicycle training
> track or bicycle
> training circuit.
>
>>
>> https://www.weekendnotes.com/learn-to-ride-centre-tuggeranong/
>>
>> I haven't mapped any but others have just used highway=cycleway.
>>
>
> There was a proposal at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training
> (abandoned) for amenity=training with a new training tag and several
> proposed values
> such as training=driving.  Many of the proposed values for training seem
> better served
> by some sort of educational tagging (you're taught art rather than trained
> in it), but
> maybe amenity=training deserves to be resurrected along with
> training=cycling.  Apply
> it to the area enclosing the track and add highways within it if aerial
> imagery/GPS
> tracing gives you that level of detail.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Andrew Davidson 
wrote:

> Here they are called learn to ride centres and look like this:
>

I'd say that term applies to not just the marked cycle paths but also
administrative buildings,
toilets or whatever.  Also "learn to ride" is a specialized usage of a
general term which
could equally apply to motorcycling or horse riding.  If you weren't
already familiar with
the specialized usage in the UK (I wasn't) then it would be confusing.

I can't think of any appropriate term for the marked, paved area itself,
and google didn't
give me any ideas.

The best I can come up with as an English description is bicycle training
track or bicycle
training circuit.

>
> https://www.weekendnotes.com/learn-to-ride-centre-tuggeranong/
>
> I haven't mapped any but others have just used highway=cycleway.
>

There was a proposal at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training
(abandoned) for amenity=training with a new training tag and several
proposed values
such as training=driving.  Many of the proposed values for training seem
better served
by some sort of educational tagging (you're taught art rather than trained
in it), but
maybe amenity=training deserves to be resurrected along with
training=cycling.  Apply
it to the area enclosing the track and add highways within it if aerial
imagery/GPS
tracing gives you that level of detail.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Mateusz Konieczny]

highway=cycleway fits for "roads" but what about tag for the area?

I consider categorizing it as a special playground, with

leisure=playground, playground=learn_to_ride (thanks for the name).  

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 21:29:06 +1000
Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> Here they are called learn to ride centres and look like this:
> 
> https://www.weekendnotes.com/learn-to-ride-centre-tuggeranong/
> 
> I haven't mapped any but others have just used highway=cycleway.
> 
> On 22/04/18 20:39, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > Sorry, I have no idea what is the proper name for that object.
> > 
> > It is a model of city roads and traffic signs with cycleways, used
> > typically by a children. See for example images at
> > 
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Miasteczko_rowerowe_Brzozow.jpg
> > and
> > http://rowerowemiasteczko.com/galeria/dsc09143/
> > 
> > I encountered one [1] during may search for undertagged features
> > [2].
> > 
> > I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle and failed
> > to find matching object.
> > 
> > Is anybody aware about English name for that object or knows how it
> > is typically tagged?
> > 
> > [1]
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/572698447#map=19/50.07609/20.01307
> > 
> > [2]
> > 
> > I use http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/y6L with following query
> > 
> > [out:xml][timeout:525];
> > way({{bbox}})(if:count_tags()==0)->.w1;
> > rel(bw.w1);way(r)->.w2;
> > (.w1; - .w2;);
> > (._; >;);
> > out meta;
> > 
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >   


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Re: [Tagging] tagging cycleable city-models focused on simulating road network

[Andrew Davidson]

Here they are called learn to ride centres and look like this:

https://www.weekendnotes.com/learn-to-ride-centre-tuggeranong/

I haven't mapped any but others have just used highway=cycleway.

On 22/04/18 20:39, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Sorry, I have no idea what is the proper name for that object.

It is a model of city roads and traffic signs with cycleways, used
typically by a children. See for example images at

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Miasteczko_rowerowe_Brzozow.jpg
and
http://rowerowemiasteczko.com/galeria/dsc09143/

I encountered one [1] during may search for undertagged features [2].

I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle and failed to
find matching object.

Is anybody aware about English name for that object or knows how it is
typically tagged?

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/572698447#map=19/50.07609/20.01307

[2]

I use http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/y6L with following query

[out:xml][timeout:525];
way({{bbox}})(if:count_tags()==0)->.w1;
rel(bw.w1);way(r)->.w2;
(.w1; - .w2;);
(._; >;);
out meta;

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