Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 18:10, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
There are are audible differences between CODECS - - - likely few 
people can tell the difference.


If you can't tell the difference between some CODECs there's something 
wrong with your ears.  As I mentioned, some are designed to squeeze as 
many voice channels as possible out of a given bandwidth.  They are 
quite noticeable, compared to the standard G.711 CODEC and the wider 
ones can provide a noticeable improvement.  Even with CODECs for music, 
you can sometimes catch an artifact of the compression.  One example of 
this I have come across is the Beatles "A day in the life.".  There is 
one soft stretch where the audio is dead centre between the left & right 
tracks, which I can hear on the CD, but not with the MP3 version.


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 17:41, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:


When Fibe tv came along, bell did not, has not insured that audio 
description   will work there either. 


Is Rogers available to you?  They have several accessibility options 
with their Ignite TV service.

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 17:57, Karen Lewellen wrote:
In spite of my order for analog land line service, noted in writing by 
Bell accessibility, on March 15, a bell technician installed VoIP 
here, getting permission from  a sighted moving helper, and not 
speaking with me as  the account owner


Do you use a cell phone?  If so, do you have any problem with it?

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:19 PM James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> On 2023-09-07 13:27, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
>
> Forgive me for insisting that technical curiosity take a back seat to the 
> real-world medical needs of people. But I will insist. This is a real 
> problem, not an experiment nor a business decision.
>
>
> Doesn't Bell have a department for helping people with medical issues?  Seems 
> to me they used to.
>
> Indeed, that is Bell's problem that it MUST solve. If the transition has 
> broken backwards compatibility (to use our lingo), they must fix the 
> breakage. Their current digital-to-analog solution may work for many users 
> (such as my landline) but clearly isn't sufficient for Karen's needs.
>
>
> How do you know it's Bell's problem.  All we know is something changed when 
> she moved.  I defy anyone to listen to a good analog line and compare it to a 
> digital line and tell me what the difference is, other than perhaps better 
> quality audio on the digital line.  You can consider things like level, 
> frequency response, phase shift, noise, distortion and more.  Incidentally, 
> when digital trunks started to be used, people complained they were too 
> quiet!  They were used to all the noise that accompanied analog calls.
>
> BTW, many years ago, I used to measure those things on various circuits, 
> including the CBC radio feed in Northern Ontario.
>
>
We were on a party line a lot later than 1975.
I can hear the difference between a 12 bit AD conversion and a 16 bit one.
(Its the difference between listing to a solo soprano recorder and a
full Wanger or Mahler orchestra.
I remember hearing the discussion between the differences on
instruments and different materials
in their manufacturer (just in case others think I'm totally
crackers!) if you want detail.)
There are are audible differences between CODECS - - - likely few
people can tell the difference.
To most engineers - - - - well - - - the mythical 'average' numbers
get trotted out.
(Something like the average sized human when talking about airplane
seats - - - another pet
peeve of mine.)
I would suggest not being quite so arbitrary on human capabilities.

HTH
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

We know its bell's problem because.
1.  In spite of my order for analog land line service, noted in writing by 
Bell accessibility, on March 15, a bell technician installed VoIP here, 
getting permission from  a sighted moving helper, and not speaking with me 
as  the account owner.
 2. bell stated in writing that since other disabled customers can use 
certain  technology, I should use the same.
3.  Bell first told Teksavy the analog service could be installed, then 
sent again and again people intent on installing VOIP, because  the first 
tech insisted I could not be living alone, I am blind
I could Go on with more examples, like the different stories bell told 
Teksavy to keep the money flowing until they pulled the plug, but  I have 
likely made my point

Karen


On Thu, 7 Sep 2023, James Knott via talk wrote:


On 2023-09-07 15:13, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

 Reading the original post would remind one that Karen has already had
 multiple interactions with Bell. Most have been negative, and she has
 referred to some as "retaliatory". In other words, these paths have been
 tried and failed.

 How do you know it's Bell's problem.?? All we know is something
 changed when she moved.



She has had multiple interactions, but were they with that department and not 
just the normal help(?) line?


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

The interesting thing about David Leopasty's bell complaint is that David 
is seeking what I sought from bell, an accessible set top satellite 
box...starting in 2018.

Bell's solution? we will just not charge you.
When Fibe tv came along, bell did not, has not insured that audio 
description   will work there either.
Bell's solution? we will just not charge you, or we will give you 
equipment for free that itself is not accessible.
For the engineering record, latency is not the problem with digital, 
the problem is frequencies used on the VOIp connections tested...and that is 
another part of the problem.
I went to an entirely different company...who must use bell, because bell 
owns the floor.
Due to my other conflict with bell, they simply said no.  The copper 
infrastructure  is here, has not been removed, nothing needs upgrading.
Connecting the inside wire to the outside, which ought to be achievable 
via one of those so called digital options, was not even tried.

And yes, I tested bell's VoIP modem, and fainted from the effort.
All bell had to do was complete an order from a contracted company, 
instead they racked up fees, without doing a single thing Teksavy paid 
them to do.
Analog is more sound rich than VOIP too, which is  only as solid as the 
connection involved.
We have an aging population that still needs even 911, something lost with 
bell's VOIP too,  before you get to what can happen with aging ears.
Could I visit a teksavy location to see how their equipment works? no, 
likely  they do not even have their own anymore.
what really bothers me is that all the infrastructure is in the hands of a 
company who gets to decide that if you are not disabled by their 
definition,  you cannot connect with the world..no matter t how modern the 
technology.

Karen



On Thu, 7 Sep 2023, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:


On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:50???PM Dhaval Giani  wrote:



On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 9:36???AM Evan Leibovitch via talk 
wrote:


On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40???AM James Knott via talk 
wrote:



Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for

blind customers

https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/


This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies
do. However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen seems
to need.



I call shenanigans on that perspective.

Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see the
issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it must be
seen as a broader issue of problem-solving.



Evan, I did not read James' response in that vein. I read it as genuine
curiosity.



Forgive me for insisting that technical curiosity take a back seat to the
real-world medical needs of people. But I will insist. This is a real
problem, not an experiment nor a business decision.



Keep in mind that this group is primarily engineers/problem solvers.



So far the engineering-based problem-solving I've witnessed in this thread
has amounted to "you can't get there from here". Explaining how Bell's
system works now does zero to solve Karen's technical issues, let alone the
quality of the customer-service response to her actions to date.

And I think it is an important question to answer. What is it that changes

that it causes Karen issues?



Indeed, that is Bell's problem that it MUST solve. If the transition has
broken backwards compatibility (to use our lingo), they must fix the
breakage. Their current digital-to-analog solution may work for many users
(such as my landline) but clearly isn't sufficient for Karen's needs.

The best possible solution is to find something that addresses Karen's
requirement with a purely digital connection. Maybe it's a latency issue;
remember how sensitive faxes were to even slightly unstable connections? I
don't have any clue on the technical issues, but simply insist that the
onus is on Bell to address them since they broke compatibility. I care less
about "how" than that it gets done.



While we are not medical professionals, we are engineers and it is our job
to solve the problem. In order to do that we do need to understand the
problem. This doesn't mean that Karen needs to participate in that process.
Maybe the medical professionals have an idea on what is getting affected
physically, but they are not engineers and they cannot comment on how to
answer the question on how to solve it.



The medical professionals are required to define the problem, ie the
specifications required for their instruments to work properly. The comms
engineers then need to solve that problem by whatever means necessary. We
know that an analog solution using POTS works. Karen cannot simply be left
behind by the move to digital.



If Karen's accessibility needs require analog service in 2023, then that

service is not obsolete merely because it's convenient for Bell to declare
it so.



The service is obsolete because the technology is no 

Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 15:13, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Reading the original post would remind one that Karen has already had 
multiple interactions with Bell. Most have been negative, and she has 
referred to some as "retaliatory". In other words, these paths have 
been tried and failed.


How do you know it's Bell's problem.  All we know is something
changed when she moved.



She has had multiple interactions, but were they with that department 
and not just the normal help(?) line?


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 15:13, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
I have fibre in my neighborhood (less than 20 years old), and yet I 
still have a supported POTS line wired through my house that works 
with old phones.
So we know Bell is able to supply a D-to-A facility in at least some 
modern locations. If Karen's new location cannot do this then IMO 
they're breaking backwards capability. Maybe it's Bell, maybe it's the 
wiring in her building, but it's not Karen. In any case this situation 
arguably contravenes Canadian laws on accessibility IMO unless Bell 
can find an all-digital solution that addresses Karen's needs.


Yep, this is a point I have been making.  Bell will have fibre to 
somewhere in your neighbourhood and copper from there.  This has been 
done for years.  What difference do you expect between this and a copper 
pair all the way back to the CO?


It still goes back to how connections are made and the bandwidth etc..  
Bell has to provide a standard toll quality circuit.  That used to be 
over copper all the way from the CO.  Now it could be from a terminal in 
a home, as I have with Rogers.  Either way, it's still a toll quality 
connection.  Here's an article about the G.711 CODEC, which describes 
what's expected from a phone circuit, no matter who provides it and 
how.  Even ancient analog systems provided similar.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.711
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

>
> Doesn't Bell have a department for helping people with medical issues?
> Seems to me they used to.
>

Reading the original post would remind one that Karen has already had
multiple interactions with Bell. Most have been negative, and she has
referred to some as "retaliatory". In other words, these paths have been
tried and failed.

How do you know it's Bell's problem.  All we know is something changed when
> she moved.
>

Did Karen's equipment change? No.
What is different is the analog signal that worked in her old environment
but not the new.
This issue is beyond Karen's ability to solve on her own. If not her, then
who else?

I have fibre in my neighborhood (less than 20 years old), and yet I still
have a supported POTS line wired through my house that works with old
phones.
So we know Bell is able to supply a D-to-A facility in at least some modern
locations. If Karen's new location cannot do this then IMO they're breaking
backwards capability. Maybe it's Bell, maybe it's the wiring in her
building, but it's not Karen. In any case this situation arguably
contravenes Canadian laws on accessibility IMO unless Bell can find an
all-digital solution that addresses Karen's needs.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 14:19, James Knott wrote:
Doesn't Bell have a department for helping people with medical issues? 
Seems to me they used to.


There's this:
https://www.bell.ca/Accessibility_services

They might be able to help better than the average Bell tech.

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 14:11, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
My main thesis here is that technical speculation based on 
insufficient input is doing little to solve Karen's problem. But since 
we're all speculating, mine is that an all-digital solution exists but 
that Bell does not want to spend the money to do it.


That seems to fall into the wishful thinking category, from someone who 
doesn't understand the technology.


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:27, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
Forgive me for insisting that technical curiosity take a back seat to 
the real-world medical needs of people. But I will insist. This is a 
real problem, not an experiment nor a business decision.


Doesn't Bell have a department for helping people with medical issues?  
Seems to me they used to.


Indeed, that is Bell's problem that it MUST solve. If the transition 
has broken backwards compatibility (to use our lingo), they must fix 
the breakage. Their current digital-to-analog solution may work for 
many users (such as my landline) but clearly isn't sufficient for 
Karen's needs.


How do you know it's Bell's problem.  All we know is something changed 
when she moved.  I defy anyone to listen to a good analog line and 
compare it to a digital line and tell me what the difference is, other 
than perhaps better quality audio on the digital line.  You can consider 
things like level, frequency response, phase shift, noise, distortion 
and more.  Incidentally, when digital trunks started to be used, people 
complained they were too quiet!  They were used to all the noise that 
accompanied analog calls.


BTW, many years ago, I used to measure those things on various circuits, 
including the CBC radio feed in Northern Ontario.



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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:36 PM Dhaval Giani  wrote:


> Forgive me for insisting that technical curiosity take a back seat to the
>> real-world medical needs of people. But I will insist. This is a real
>> problem, not an experiment nor a business decision.
>>
>
> Then this is not the right venue to have this discussion. We cannot fix a
> "Bell needs to fix this" issue on this mailing list. Regardless, it does
> not excuse the name calling.
>

Who did I call a name? What did I call them?

I've been around this block enough times to WELL know the difference
between confronting the speaker and confronting what's been said.

No, a lot of the questioning has been about - this is what is happening. So
> where is the gap?
>

It is highly unlikely that enough information has been supplied in this
thread to enable a full diagnosis of the gap.


>  Well, then when someone who has a sense is trying to make sense of it,
> don't attack them. The question being asked is "What is the gap?".  All the
> other things, we cannot do anything about, they need to be fixed by Bell.
>

My main thesis here is that technical speculation based on insufficient
input is doing little to solve Karen's problem. But since we're all
speculating, mine is that an all-digital solution exists but that Bell does
not want to spend the money to do it.


> Have the medical professionals defined it? No one is saying Karen should
> be left behind. What folks are constantly asking for is to understand what
> the gap is.
>

Without knowing the specification of Karen's device or the quality of
Bell's service to her, it's unlikely that a solution can be derived here.
GIGO. I am saying that Bell needs to fix it because
a) its technicians are likely the only ones with enough information to
fully identify the gap
b) it's a regulated body with a federally-mandated Duty to Accommodate

IMO the solution here is bureaucratic and legal. Any technical speculation
is unlikely to be sufficiently informed to help Karen now.

There are defintions that are being met, standards that are being met.
>

I won't assume that. If Karen's device meets compatibility standards and
Bell can't support it, then Bell is not fully compliant. I don't know
enough to make a judgment if this is the case, but neither does anyone else
here.


> This tells there is a gap. We need to identify the gap. But - you cannot
> insist on providing technology for which spares do not exist.
>

OK, but then the onus is on Bell to find an all-digital solution that meets
Karen's needs. Since we know that everything intenal to Bell is digital, it
is logical that a fully digital instrument should actually have less
latency (etc) than a path that requires a D-to-A transition. It's
implausible (but possible) that no all-digital solution to Karen's needs
exist, in which case this is purely a matter of Bell's willingness to pay.


> Bell broke it. They need to fix it. Full stop. No excuses.
>>
>
> And at this point in time I say, go to Bell. Complaining here doesn't help
> and cannot help.
>

Karen has well-documented the futility resulting from "going to Bell".
That's why we're here.

And it's also why I am suggesting the best path for Karen is to treat this
as a human-rights accessibility issue. We may be at a point where Bell
won't fix the issue unless being compelled to do so.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:41, Alex Kink wrote:
I thought what is going on here is that she moved to a new location 
where the service is different for her needs compared to what it was 
at the previous location.


I'd forgotten about the move.  There might be some other factor that 
hasn't been mentioned.

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Alex Kink via talk]

I thought what is going on here is that she moved to a new location where the 
service is different for her needs compared to what it was at the previous 
location.

Also, as someone who has been following this topic for past 6 months, there is 
no clear definition as to what connection property it is that makes it not 
cause potentially life threatening issues for Karen. So clearly the medical 
professionals have not defined the problem.

Karen is also, understandably, not willing to test different connections being 
offered because of the risk of medical issues.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 13:31, Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:12 PM James Knott  > wrote:
>  
>> And if Bell is no longer able to provide the service she wants.
> 
> Wants? WANTS?!?
> 
> We're not talking about call-display here. This is about connectivity for 
> medically-necessary equipment.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Bell broke it. Bell needs to fix it. Full stop.
> 
> - Evan
> 
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:35, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:



So far the engineering-based problem-solving I've witnessed in
this thread has amounted to "you can't get there from here".
Explaining how Bell's system works now does zero to solve Karen's
technical issues, let alone the quality of the customer-service
response to her actions to date.


No, a lot of the questioning has been about - this is what is 
happening. So where is the gap?


As someone with a lot of experience in telecom, I do not understand what 
her problem is.  If I can't understand it, I can't fix it.  I can 
understand CODECs that might cause distortion, I can understand having a 
crappy phone, but I cannot understand why she thinks an analog line is 
what she needs, when it's unlikely she's had a real analog line for many 
years.
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:31, Evan Leibovitch wrote:


And if Bell is no longer able to provide the service she wants.


Wants? WANTS?!?

We're not talking about call-display here. This is about connectivity 
for medically-necessary equipment.


See my comments about blind people and Teletypes.  The same may apply here.

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:21, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
You should see the fun when you get connected to the off shore support 
people trying to diagnose a problem with a party line.
I bet you 75% of the people on this list don't even know what that is. 


This is one reason I prefer Rogers.  All their support people are in Canada.

I remember party lines, as we were on one when I was a young kid.  I 
also remember when 7 digit dialing came in.  Incidentally, back in 1975, 
the first time I went to Armstrong, Ont. in my work, it was just after 
they switched from 2 to 5 digit dialing!


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Dhaval Giani via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 10:27 AM Evan Leibovitch  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:50 PM Dhaval Giani 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 9:36 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Knott via talk 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
 > Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for
 blind customers
 > https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/

 This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies
 do. However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen seems
 to need.

>>>
>>> I call shenanigans on that perspective.
>>>
>>> Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see the
>>> issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it must be
>>> seen as a broader issue of problem-solving.
>>>
>>
>> Evan, I did not read James' response in that vein. I read it as genuine
>> curiosity.
>>
>
> Forgive me for insisting that technical curiosity take a back seat to the
> real-world medical needs of people. But I will insist. This is a real
> problem, not an experiment nor a business decision.
>
>

Then this is not the right venue to have this discussion. We cannot fix a
"Bell needs to fix this" issue on this mailing list. Regardless, it does
not excuse the name calling.



> Keep in mind that this group is primarily engineers/problem solvers.
>>
>
> So far the engineering-based problem-solving I've witnessed in this thread
> has amounted to "you can't get there from here". Explaining how Bell's
> system works now does zero to solve Karen's technical issues, let alone the
> quality of the customer-service response to her actions to date.
>

No, a lot of the questioning has been about - this is what is happening. So
where is the gap?


>
> And I think it is an important question to answer. What is it that changes
>> that it causes Karen issues?
>>
>
> Indeed, that is Bell's problem that it MUST solve. If the transition has
> broken backwards compatibility (to use our lingo), they must fix the
> breakage. Their current digital-to-analog solution may work for many users
> (such as my landline) but clearly isn't sufficient for Karen's needs.
>
> The best possible solution is to find something that addresses Karen's
> requirement with a purely digital connection. Maybe it's a latency issue;
> remember how sensitive faxes were to even slightly unstable connections? I
> don't have any clue on the technical issues, but simply insist that the
> onus is on Bell to address them since they broke compatibility. I care less
> about "how" than that it gets done.
>
>

Well, then when someone who has a sense is trying to make sense of it,
don't attack them. The question being asked is "What is the gap?".  All the
other things, we cannot do anything about, they need to be fixed by Bell.


> While we are not medical professionals, we are engineers and it is our job
>> to solve the problem. In order to do that we do need to understand the
>> problem. This doesn't mean that Karen needs to participate in that process.
>> Maybe the medical professionals have an idea on what is getting affected
>> physically, but they are not engineers and they cannot comment on how to
>> answer the question on how to solve it.
>>
>
> The medical professionals are required to define the problem, ie the
> specifications required for their instruments to work properly. The comms
> engineers then need to solve that problem by whatever means necessary. We
> know that an analog solution using POTS works. Karen cannot simply be left
> behind by the move to digital.
>

Have the medical professionals defined it? No one is saying Karen should be
left behind. What folks are constantly asking for is to understand what the
gap is. There are defintions that are being met, standards that are being
met. This tells there is a gap. We need to identify the gap. But - you
cannot insist on providing technology for which spares do not exist. Is
your expectation that Bell manufacturer spares that are no longer
available? Who pays for it? Is it bell, is it our taxes, is it Karen? So
while I sympathize with where you are coming from, there may be real
constraints there.


>
>
>> If Karen's accessibility needs require analog service in 2023, then that
>>> service is not obsolete merely because it's convenient for Bell to declare
>>> it so.
>>>
>>
>> The service is obsolete because the technology is no longer being
>> actively maintained
>>
>
> I don't want to digress over semantics and definitions of "obsolete", see
> below.
>
> This doesn't absolve Bell of the responsibility to ensure accessibility
>> requirements are met. It just means the technology is obsolete.
>>
>
> If you agree that Bell has the responsibility to be backwards-compatible,
> then designations of "obsolete" are irrelevant.
>
> I am reminded (once again) of the brilliance of Jon Stewart's 2021 rant
> on the Colbert show 

Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-09-07 12:35, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Knott via talk  
wrote:


> Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of
inaccessibility for blind customers
> https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/

This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other
companies do. However, this is current technology, not obsolete,
which Karen seems to need.


I call shenanigans on that perspective.

Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see 
the issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it 
must be seen as a broader issue of problem-solving. If Karen's 
accessibility needs require analog service in 2023, then that service 
is not obsolete merely because it's convenient for Bell to declare it 
so. In making a transition to digital it is Bell's responsibility to 
either:


  * provide a complete working solution to Karen's needs that can be
accomplished purely digitally
  * use whatever means required internally to maintain (what is seen
in her home as) analog service

Given its regulated monopoly in last-mile connectivity, the onus is on 
Bell to provide a solution to the problem that it caused.



I hate sticking up for Bell or Rogers.
REALLY REALLY hate it.

But James is right our phone system has been digital for decades now and 
likely over 5 decades.


So the problem that Karen is facing is likely not an issue with the 
signal being digital but is an issue with the way the signal gets 
attenuated and modified by the up to several KM of twisted pair cable.


Think of this a bit like the difference between vinyl records and CDs.
Some people really dislike the much better quality and swear that their 
old LPs sound "warmer".


Likely Karen's problem can be cured by some appropriate signal 
conditioning and I would not be surprised if there were not some 
products out there for the hearing impaired that could to that task.


I believe that Bell/Rogers et al can be forced to keep providing 
existing services like my party line but they are not likely going to be 
forced to provide the old services to new installations.


Karen is kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.
She has moved into a new location and is trying to get an old service 
which Bell may not be obliged to provide.


I get the impression that Karen is also not rolling in cash so that any 
kind of solution that will be a major expense will be a problem.


The conversation has become stuck in the mode where some say Bell should 
fix everybodies problems no mater what and others are saying new tech is 
good no mater what.


Clearly Karen has a problem with the newer digital phones but she does 
not have the same problem with her old location where she was on a phone 
at the end of several KM of copper cable.


The question is what are the differences and how can the signal quality, 
or lack there of, be recreated in a digital phone line.



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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:12 PM James Knott  wrote:


> And if Bell is no longer able to provide the service she wants.
>

Wants? WANTS?!?

We're not talking about call-display here. This is about connectivity for
medically-necessary equipment.

Sigh.

Bell broke it. Bell needs to fix it. Full stop.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:50 PM Dhaval Giani  wrote:

>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 9:36 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Knott via talk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for
>>> blind customers
>>> > https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/
>>>
>>> This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies
>>> do. However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen seems
>>> to need.
>>>
>>
>> I call shenanigans on that perspective.
>>
>> Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see the
>> issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it must be
>> seen as a broader issue of problem-solving.
>>
>
> Evan, I did not read James' response in that vein. I read it as genuine
> curiosity.
>

Forgive me for insisting that technical curiosity take a back seat to the
real-world medical needs of people. But I will insist. This is a real
problem, not an experiment nor a business decision.


> Keep in mind that this group is primarily engineers/problem solvers.
>

So far the engineering-based problem-solving I've witnessed in this thread
has amounted to "you can't get there from here". Explaining how Bell's
system works now does zero to solve Karen's technical issues, let alone the
quality of the customer-service response to her actions to date.

And I think it is an important question to answer. What is it that changes
> that it causes Karen issues?
>

Indeed, that is Bell's problem that it MUST solve. If the transition has
broken backwards compatibility (to use our lingo), they must fix the
breakage. Their current digital-to-analog solution may work for many users
(such as my landline) but clearly isn't sufficient for Karen's needs.

The best possible solution is to find something that addresses Karen's
requirement with a purely digital connection. Maybe it's a latency issue;
remember how sensitive faxes were to even slightly unstable connections? I
don't have any clue on the technical issues, but simply insist that the
onus is on Bell to address them since they broke compatibility. I care less
about "how" than that it gets done.


> While we are not medical professionals, we are engineers and it is our job
> to solve the problem. In order to do that we do need to understand the
> problem. This doesn't mean that Karen needs to participate in that process.
> Maybe the medical professionals have an idea on what is getting affected
> physically, but they are not engineers and they cannot comment on how to
> answer the question on how to solve it.
>

The medical professionals are required to define the problem, ie the
specifications required for their instruments to work properly. The comms
engineers then need to solve that problem by whatever means necessary. We
know that an analog solution using POTS works. Karen cannot simply be left
behind by the move to digital.


> If Karen's accessibility needs require analog service in 2023, then that
>> service is not obsolete merely because it's convenient for Bell to declare
>> it so.
>>
>
> The service is obsolete because the technology is no longer being actively
> maintained
>

I don't want to digress over semantics and definitions of "obsolete", see
below.

This doesn't absolve Bell of the responsibility to ensure accessibility
> requirements are met. It just means the technology is obsolete.
>

If you agree that Bell has the responsibility to be backwards-compatible,
then designations of "obsolete" are irrelevant.

I am reminded (once again) of the brilliance of Jon Stewart's 2021 rant on
the Colbert show , talking
mainly about the COVID lab leak "theory" but coming up with this general
comment:

*"We owe a great deal of gratitude to science. Science has, in many ways,
> helped ease the suffering [...] which was more than likely caused by
> science."*
>

Bell broke it. They need to fix it. Full stop. No excuses.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:18, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2023-09-07 13:00, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

I have a rural cottage with a pulse dial phone on a party line.


I can pulse dial over my Rogers connection.  Yep, I actually tried it, 
with the box that provides my Internet connection and home phone.


Also, what's available in cottage country might be years behind what's 
in the city.

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You should see the fun when you get connected to the off shore support 
people trying to diagnose a problem with a party line.

I bet you 75% of the people on this list don't even know what that is.

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 13:00, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

I have a rural cottage with a pulse dial phone on a party line.


I can pulse dial over my Rogers connection.  Yep, I actually tried it, 
with the box that provides my Internet connection and home phone.


Also, what's available in cottage country might be years behind what's 
in the city.

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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 12:35, Evan Leibovitch wrote:



This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other
companies do. However, this is current technology, not obsolete,
which Karen seems to need.


I call shenanigans on that perspective.

Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see 
the issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it 
must be seen as a broader issue of problem-solving. If Karen's 
accessibility needs require analog service in 2023, then that service 
is not obsolete merely because it's convenient for Bell to declare it 
so. In making a transition to digital it is Bell's responsibility to 
either:


  * provide a complete working solution to Karen's needs that can be
accomplished purely digitally
  * use whatever means required internally to maintain (what is seen
in her home as) analog service

Given its regulated monopoly in last-mile connectivity, the onus is on 
Bell to provide a solution to the problem that it caused.


And if Bell is no longer able to provide the service she wants. When I 
started in telecom, I was a bench tech and spent my days overhauling 
Teletype machines.  Suppose Karen needed a Teletype machine?  She will 
not find anyone able to provide that service, as it's been obsolete for 
a long time.  I chose that example, because deaf people would often use 
Teletypes to communicate, using the old 300 baud modems.  Teletype 
machines are long gone and dial up modems aren't used much these days.  
So how would anyone get that service? They wouldn't.  Technology has 
moved on and there are now better ways for blind people to communicate.


Getting back to phones, in electrical engineering there's something 
called transfer function.  With this, you assume you have a black box 
and measure the input vs output and compare things like level, frequency 
response, distortion and more.  If 2 black boxes produce identical 
response, they will sound identical, regardless of what they're made 
with (this is a concept that audiofools have a problem with).  In an 
earlier message, I discussed a bit about the technology and CODECs, 
specifically the G.711 CODEC.  If 2 devices have that CODEC, they should 
sound identical.  This leads me to what I've been struggling with all 
along.  That is what is she hearing that causes the problem?


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-09-07 12:48, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 2023-09-07 12:13, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
The CRTC is a cruel joke for consumers. It's far too 
industry-friendly and has allowed Robellus to get away with awful 
shenanigans and anti-competitive behavior for decades. While it 
offers a path to complain,  
I would not expect such a complaint to be answered in a timely manner 
or to your satisfaction.


I fully agree with Don that this is a human rights issue, and 
following that path will likely achieve better results than fighting 
Bell on their turf.


Again, can the CRTC force Bell to provide obsolete service?  What if 
Bell has abandoned or removed the copper cable to her neighborhood?  
What if they've removed the necessary equipment from their office?  
How are they supposed to provide the service?

Well. They actually can.

I have a rural cottage with a pulse dial phone on a party line.

The CRTC forced Bell to keep providing that service in rural 
Ontario(Canada?)



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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Alex Kink via talk]

It's such a messy situation.
Karen has been using a service that from her perspective has been copper/analog 
for years and this has been compatible with her condition. It's likely that 
this service has been described to her by her previous service providers using 
words such as copper and/or analog. To be clear, copper and analog are not 
interchangeable terms here.

In reality, it has been copper to her phone for only a certain number of 
meters, depending on the how modern the network at her location was at any 
given time. Without question, after certain distance that copper has been 
plugging into a digital network for past 30+ years.

Karen now turns to the service provider asking for a copper/analog connection 
but the provider doesn't know what that means to Karen. Because the providers 
are generally the devil and don't give a rat's butt about anything the client 
wants, they just talk BS and provide whatever they want to provide. To cut some 
slack to the providers, not that they deserve it, probably good 99%+ of clients 
really don't know what they are talking about.

The reality is, that even if Karen found a well meaning individual at the 
provider who would be willing to go above and beyond for her, they would not be 
able to help her because 1) Karen doesn't know what was the nature of the 
service she has been using for the past 30+ years that has worked for her, 
other than it was a copper twisted pair coming out of the wall. 2) Even if 
there was a way to exactly identify the technical specs of her past connection 
that worked for her, it might be nearly impossible to deliver that to her at 
her current address in the year 2023.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 12:35, Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Knott via talk  > wrote:
>  
>> > Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for 
>> > blind customers
>> > https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/
>> 
>> This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies do. 
>> However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen seems to need.
> 
> I call shenanigans on that perspective.
> 
> Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see the issue 
> as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it must be seen as a 
> broader issue of problem-solving. If Karen's accessibility needs require 
> analog service in 2023, then that service is not obsolete merely because it's 
> convenient for Bell to declare it so. In making a transition to digital it is 
> Bell's responsibility to either:
> provide a complete working solution to Karen's needs that can be accomplished 
> purely digitally
> use whatever means required internally to maintain (what is seen in her home 
> as) analog service
> Given its regulated monopoly in last-mile connectivity, the onus is on Bell 
> to provide a solution to the problem that it caused.
> 
> - Evan
> 
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Dhaval Giani via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 9:36 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Knott via talk 
> wrote:
>
>
>> > Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for
>> blind customers
>> > https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/
>>
>> This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies do.
>> However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen seems to
>> need.
>>
>
> I call shenanigans on that perspective.
>
> Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see the
> issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it must be
> seen as a broader issue of problem-solving.
>

Evan, I did not read James' response in that vein. I read it as genuine
curiosity. Keep in mind that this group is primarily engineers/problem
solvers. And I think it is an important question to answer. What is it that
changes that it causes Karen issues? While we are not medical
professionals, we are engineers and it is our job to solve the problem. In
order to do that we do need to understand the problem. This doesn't mean
that Karen needs to participate in that process. Maybe the medical
professionals have an idea on what is getting affected physically, but they
are not engineers and they cannot comment on how to answer the question on
how to solve it.


> If Karen's accessibility needs require analog service in 2023, then that
> service is not obsolete merely because it's convenient for Bell to declare
> it so.
>

The service is obsolete because the technology is no longer being actively
maintained and all the development is happening elsewhere. This doesn't
absolve Bell of the responsibility to ensure accessibility requirements are
met. It just means the technology is obsolete. (For example, I would claim
Linux 2.6.32 is obsolete, but I can also find millions of IoT devices
running 2.6.32 which we probably want to secure).

Thanks!
Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 12:13, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
The CRTC is a cruel joke for consumers. It's far too industry-friendly 
and has allowed Robellus to get away with awful shenanigans and 
anti-competitive behavior for decades. While it offers a path to 
complain,  I would not expect 
such a complaint to be answered in a timely manner or to your 
satisfaction.


I fully agree with Don that this is a human rights issue, and 
following that path will likely achieve better results than fighting 
Bell on their turf.


Again, can the CRTC force Bell to provide obsolete service?  What if 
Bell has abandoned or removed the copper cable to her neighborhood? What 
if they've removed the necessary equipment from their office? How are 
they supposed to provide the service?


I am no fan of Bell however, expecting them to provide an analog phone 
line back to their office, when everything is moving to IP over fibre 
may amount to nothing more than wishful thinking.


BTW, here's something I worked on around 15 years ago.  There is a hydro 
control centre, located in Mississauga at the corner of Lakeshore Rd. 
and Winston Churchill Blvd.  They had a need for multiple analog phone 
lines, to connect dial up modems to.  Bell could not supply those lines, 
so the company I worked for provided the equipment to do it, connected 
to a T1 line and I was the one who installed the equipment to provide 
those analog lines.  Even then, some special equipment was needed, as 
Bell's DMS 250 switch wasn't configured to provide the type of analog 
lines required.


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Knott via talk 
wrote:


> > Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for
> blind customers
> > https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/
>
> This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies do.
> However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen seems to
> need.
>

I call shenanigans on that perspective.

Given the nature of our group it is natural that some here will see the
issue as merely one of choice and pace of technology, but IMO it must be
seen as a broader issue of problem-solving. If Karen's accessibility needs
require analog service in 2023, then that service is not obsolete merely
because it's convenient for Bell to declare it so. In making a transition
to digital it is Bell's responsibility to either:

   - provide a complete working solution to Karen's needs that can be
   accomplished purely digitally
   - use whatever means required internally to maintain (what is seen in
   her home as) analog service

Given its regulated monopoly in last-mile connectivity, the onus is on Bell
to provide a solution to the problem that it caused.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Hi Karen,

The CRTC is a cruel joke for consumers. It's far too industry-friendly and
has allowed Robellus to get away with awful shenanigans and
anti-competitive behavior for decades. While it offers a path to complain,
 I would not expect such a
complaint to be answered in a timely manner or to your satisfaction.

I fully agree with Don that this is a human rights issue, and following
that path will likely achieve better results than fighting Bell on their
turf.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
 is
pretty explicit about prohibiting penalizing people because of physical
disability:

*Equality rights are at the core of the Charter. They are intended to
> ensure that everyone is treated with the same respect, dignity and
> consideration (i.e. without discrimination), regardless of personal
> characteristics such as race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion,
> sex, age, or mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, residency,
> marital status or citizenship. *
>

You are receiving neither respect, dignity nor consideration from Bell (and
in this case, Teksavvy acting as Bell's reseller). As such I think you have
a strong case, but IANAL. You have two channels to go, the Canadian Human
Rights Act and the Accessible Canada Act. I think the latter offers a
better and faster process here; the Accessible Canada Act explicitly
applies to regulated telcos, of which Bell certainly is one.

The Canadian Human Rights Commission maintains (and is supposed to enforce)
a Duty to Accommodate

that I believe applies here completely. And it provides a PDF  called
"Tools for Individuals"

that detail forms of non-compliance with the two Acts and how to proceed
with formal complaints.

Ontario also has its own human rights commission, but the federal path is
likely recommended since Bell is a federally-regulated entity. However,
Ontario offers a benefit in the Human Rights Legal Support Centre,
 that may assist with your complaints
process and give infinitely better advice than I have offered above.

Apologies if I have stated the obvious or indicated paths that have already
been tried unsuccessfully.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@el56
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 11:51, Don Tai wrote:
Karen is not alone. Accommodations are needed for the good of the 
greater society. I also see this in our election system as well. We 
must not leave anyone behind. We are smart, we just need to find an 
adequate solution.


I am having trouble understanding what her issue is.  She complains 
about whatever service is provided, claiming that she has to have an 
analog phone line.  As I mentioned, the entire phone network has been 
digital for decades, more recently over IP.  The basic "toll quality" 
digital call uses a G.711 CODEC, which has been in use for over 50 
years.  This provides a standard voice channel, with specified frequency 
response and noise level, etc..  She has no doubt had many, many calls 
using it.  There is no difference in G.711, whether delivered via TDM or 
IP.  It's a standard CODEC.  Why is she hearing something different?  As 
I mentioned, other CODECs have been used.  The 2G and 3G phones used 
CODECs designed to squeeze multiple channels into the bandwidth of an 
analog cell call.  These could cause audio distortion.  These days, the 
trend is in the opposite direction, with the CODECs providing better 
than toll quality calls.  You may see terms such as HD Voice with them. 
This provides greater bandwidth than toll quality, over both "land line" 
and cell phone calls, which means more life like and natural call quality.


Now, assuming she is able to get an analog line.  It is unlikely to go 
back to the Bell office and will terminate somewhere near her home.  
There is absolutely no difference in what is delivered, as it will be 
copper to the point where the call is converted to digital with G.711 or 
better CODEC.  Same with services that are digital to the hojme, either 
over fibre or coax cable.  Digital is digital is digital, with the only 
difference being IP or the old TDM.  So, where is her problem occurring?


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Don Tai via talk]

Karen is not alone. Accommodations are needed for the good of the greater
society. I also see this in our election system as well. We must not leave
anyone behind. We are smart, we just need to find an adequate solution.

On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 11:41, James Knott  wrote:

> On 2023-09-07 11:25, Don Tai wrote:
> > The next step is the CRTC:
>
> Do you honestly believe they can force Bell to bring back obsolete
> technology?  First off, they'd have to provide a copper pair back to the
> office, when everything else is fibre.  Then, they'd need the equipment
> that can handle it, which may have been scrapped already, etc.
>
> Maybe someone from Bell can clarify this, but I doubt that will happen.
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 11:25, Don Tai wrote:

The next step is the CRTC:


Do you honestly believe they can force Bell to bring back obsolete 
technology?  First off, they'd have to provide a copper pair back to the 
office, when everything else is fibre.  Then, they'd need the equipment 
that can handle it, which may have been scrapped already, etc.


Maybe someone from Bell can clarify this, but I doubt that will happen.
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 11:29, Don Tai wrote:
Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility 
for blind customers

https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/


This is about what Bell is not providing, even though other companies 
do.  However, this is current technology, not obsolete, which Karen 
seems to need.


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Don Tai via talk]

Bell faces human rights complaint over allegations of inaccessibility for
blind customers
https://globalnews.ca/news/9373449/bell-human-rights-complaint/

On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 11:25, Don Tai  wrote:

> this is a human rights issue. Contact the Bell Communications ombudsman
> first, but can't find a direct route:
> https://support.bell.ca/how-to-resolve-a-concern
>
> The next step is the CRTC:
> For regulated services, contact the CRTC at:
> Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
> Ottawa, Ontario
> Canada, K1A 0N2
>
> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 11:07, Karen Lewellen via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> The key word is that you cannot conceive of what would cause my brain
>> issues...you are not a medical professional.
>> The  ability to even capture auditory processing disorders, mine came via
>> a  slight stroke in a surgery, did not even exist ten years ago.
>> I respect our professional background in your field..but that does not
>> make
>> you  an expert in
>>   others.
>> That you cannot conceive of my situation does not  mean anything
>> important here , because you are not a medical professional.
>> Please stop trivializing my circumstance by outlining your expertise as
>> if
>> it  carried any weight..it does not.
>> I am personally very tired of hiving to defend explain and micromanage my
>> body to techs who claim to know more than medical tests because they have
>> never seen it before.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2023, James Knott wrote:
>>
>> > On 2023-09-07 10:35, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> >>  may I ask what method of suicide will be best then?
>> >>  From what you say, in spite of the aquired brain injury I currently
>> >>  experience, and its medical documentation, my being able to use analog
>> >>  phone service until less than a year ago,  and the like, my body is
>> too
>> >>  much trouble to keep alive, no longer can communicate with the outside
>> >>  world safely, do my job, etc without the seizures all VOIp services
>> cause
>> >>  me..with tests to support this.
>> >>  Seems like a fine time to go according to you,  since according to
>> you,
>> >>  I cannot achieve what I have done just fine, even with the physical
>> >>  resources for it here in my house, or existing analog customers being
>> >>  around
>> >
>> > First off, I cannot comment on your health issues.  However, I can
>> comment
>> > on telecom issues, having worked in the field for over half a century.
>> The
>> > world is moving to IP for just about everything and that over fibre.
>> > Carriers, such as Bell or Rogers, run fibre out into the community, in
>> some
>> > cases converting to copper in the neighbourhood and more and more often
>> > directly in the consumer's home or office.
>> > Second, I first came across digital audio, for phone service in 1975
>> and it's
>> > been growing ever since.  A bit about me, I started working in telecom
>> in
>> > 1972.  I spent 23 years working for CN Telecommunications, CNCP and
>> Unitel,
>> > as the company ownership changed.  Most of that time I worked as a
>> > technician, but for my last 5 years, I was in planning, where I planned
>> the
>> > installation of telecom equipment, both in the office at 151 Front St.
>> W. as
>> > well as customer sites in downtown Toronto.  Even back then, everything
>> I
>> > worked on was 100% digital.  That was almost 30 years ago.  Since then,
>> my
>> > work has been largely services provided over IP, including voice.  It
>> been
>> > years since I've seen voice provided over anything other than IP.  Even
>> some
>> > of the old Time Division Multiplex (TDM) services were emulated over IP.
>> >
>> > As someone with all that experience, I cannot conceive of anything that
>> would
>> > contribute to your issues, other than possibly getting a CODEC that
>> tries to
>> > minimize bandwidth to the point that it causes noticeable distortion.
>> With
>> > the bandwidth available now, there's no reason for such CODECs to be
>> used.
>> >
>> > Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if Bell is unable to provide what
>> you
>> > want.  I know Rogers can't.  Even if Bell were able to provide it, your
>> > calls would be analog only as far as their office, if that far.
>> Everything
>> > beyond would be digital, likely over IP.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >---
>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
>> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Don Tai via talk]

this is a human rights issue. Contact the Bell Communications ombudsman
first, but can't find a direct route:
https://support.bell.ca/how-to-resolve-a-concern

The next step is the CRTC:
For regulated services, contact the CRTC at:
Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada, K1A 0N2

On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 11:07, Karen Lewellen via talk 
wrote:

> The key word is that you cannot conceive of what would cause my brain
> issues...you are not a medical professional.
> The  ability to even capture auditory processing disorders, mine came via
> a  slight stroke in a surgery, did not even exist ten years ago.
> I respect our professional background in your field..but that does not
> make
> you  an expert in
>   others.
> That you cannot conceive of my situation does not  mean anything
> important here , because you are not a medical professional.
> Please stop trivializing my circumstance by outlining your expertise as if
> it  carried any weight..it does not.
> I am personally very tired of hiving to defend explain and micromanage my
> body to techs who claim to know more than medical tests because they have
> never seen it before.
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2023, James Knott wrote:
>
> > On 2023-09-07 10:35, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>  may I ask what method of suicide will be best then?
> >>  From what you say, in spite of the aquired brain injury I currently
> >>  experience, and its medical documentation, my being able to use analog
> >>  phone service until less than a year ago,  and the like, my body is too
> >>  much trouble to keep alive, no longer can communicate with the outside
> >>  world safely, do my job, etc without the seizures all VOIp services
> cause
> >>  me..with tests to support this.
> >>  Seems like a fine time to go according to you,  since according to
> you,
> >>  I cannot achieve what I have done just fine, even with the physical
> >>  resources for it here in my house, or existing analog customers being
> >>  around
> >
> > First off, I cannot comment on your health issues.  However, I can
> comment
> > on telecom issues, having worked in the field for over half a century.
> The
> > world is moving to IP for just about everything and that over fibre.
> > Carriers, such as Bell or Rogers, run fibre out into the community, in
> some
> > cases converting to copper in the neighbourhood and more and more often
> > directly in the consumer's home or office.
> > Second, I first came across digital audio, for phone service in 1975 and
> it's
> > been growing ever since.  A bit about me, I started working in telecom
> in
> > 1972.  I spent 23 years working for CN Telecommunications, CNCP and
> Unitel,
> > as the company ownership changed.  Most of that time I worked as a
> > technician, but for my last 5 years, I was in planning, where I planned
> the
> > installation of telecom equipment, both in the office at 151 Front St.
> W. as
> > well as customer sites in downtown Toronto.  Even back then, everything
> I
> > worked on was 100% digital.  That was almost 30 years ago.  Since then,
> my
> > work has been largely services provided over IP, including voice.  It
> been
> > years since I've seen voice provided over anything other than IP.  Even
> some
> > of the old Time Division Multiplex (TDM) services were emulated over IP.
> >
> > As someone with all that experience, I cannot conceive of anything that
> would
> > contribute to your issues, other than possibly getting a CODEC that
> tries to
> > minimize bandwidth to the point that it causes noticeable distortion.
> With
> > the bandwidth available now, there's no reason for such CODECs to be
> used.
> >
> > Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if Bell is unable to provide what
> you
> > want.  I know Rogers can't.  Even if Bell were able to provide it, your
> > calls would be analog only as far as their office, if that far.
> Everything
> > beyond would be digital, likely over IP.
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

The key word is that you cannot conceive of what would cause my brain 
issues...you are not a medical professional.
The  ability to even capture auditory processing disorders, mine came via 
a  slight stroke in a surgery, did not even exist ten years ago.
I respect our professional background in your field..but that does not make 
you  an expert in

 others.
That you cannot conceive of my situation does not  mean anything 
important here , because you are not a medical professional.
Please stop trivializing my circumstance by outlining your expertise as if 
it  carried any weight..it does not.
I am personally very tired of hiving to defend explain and micromanage my 
body to techs who claim to know more than medical tests because they have 
never seen it before.



On Thu, 7 Sep 2023, James Knott wrote:


On 2023-09-07 10:35, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 may I ask what method of suicide will be best then?
 From what you say, in spite of the aquired brain injury I currently
 experience, and its medical documentation, my being able to use analog
 phone service until less than a year ago,  and the like, my body is too
 much trouble to keep alive, no longer can communicate with the outside
 world safely, do my job, etc without the seizures all VOIp services cause
 me..with tests to support this.
 Seems like a fine time to go according to you,  since according to you, 
 I cannot achieve what I have done just fine, even with the physical
 resources for it here in my house, or existing analog customers being
 around 


First off, I cannot comment on your health issues.  However, I can comment 
on telecom issues, having worked in the field for over half a century.  The 
world is moving to IP for just about everything and that over fibre.  
Carriers, such as Bell or Rogers, run fibre out into the community, in some 
cases converting to copper in the neighbourhood and more and more often 
directly in the consumer's home or office.
Second, I first came across digital audio, for phone service in 1975 and it's 
been growing ever since.  A bit about me, I started working in telecom in 
1972.  I spent 23 years working for CN Telecommunications, CNCP and Unitel, 
as the company ownership changed.  Most of that time I worked as a 
technician, but for my last 5 years, I was in planning, where I planned the 
installation of telecom equipment, both in the office at 151 Front St. W. as 
well as customer sites in downtown Toronto.  Even back then, everything I 
worked on was 100% digital.  That was almost 30 years ago.  Since then, my 
work has been largely services provided over IP, including voice.  It been 
years since I've seen voice provided over anything other than IP.  Even some 
of the old Time Division Multiplex (TDM) services were emulated over IP.


As someone with all that experience, I cannot conceive of anything that would 
contribute to your issues, other than possibly getting a CODEC that tries to 
minimize bandwidth to the point that it causes noticeable distortion.  With 
the bandwidth available now, there's no reason for such CODECs to be used.


Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if Bell is unable to provide what you 
want.  I know Rogers can't.  Even if Bell were able to provide it, your 
calls would be analog only as far as their office, if that far.  Everything 
beyond would be digital, likely over IP.




---
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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 10:35, Karen Lewellen wrote:

may I ask what method of suicide will be best then?
From what you say, in spite of the aquired brain injury I currently 
experience, and its medical documentation, my being able to use analog 
phone service until less than a year ago,  and the like, my body is 
too much trouble to keep alive, no longer can communicate with the 
outside world safely, do my job, etc without the seizures all VOIp 
services cause me..with tests to support this.
Seems like a fine time to go according to you,  since according to 
you,  I cannot achieve what I have done just fine, even with the 
physical resources for it here in my house, or existing analog 
customers being around 


First off, I cannot comment on your health issues.  However, I can 
comment on telecom issues, having worked in the field for over half a 
century.  The world is moving to IP for just about everything and that 
over fibre.  Carriers, such as Bell or Rogers, run fibre out into the 
community, in some cases converting to copper in the neighbourhood and 
more and more often directly in the consumer's home or office.
Second, I first came across digital audio, for phone service in 1975 and 
it's been growing ever since.  A bit about me, I started working in 
telecom in 1972.  I spent 23 years working for CN Telecommunications, 
CNCP and Unitel, as the company ownership changed.  Most of that time I 
worked as a technician, but for my last 5 years, I was in planning, 
where I planned the installation of telecom equipment, both in the 
office at 151 Front St. W. as well as customer sites in downtown 
Toronto.  Even back then, everything I worked on was 100% digital.  That 
was almost 30 years ago.  Since then, my work has been largely services 
provided over IP, including voice.  It been years since I've seen voice 
provided over anything other than IP.  Even some of the old Time 
Division Multiplex (TDM) services were emulated over IP.


As someone with all that experience, I cannot conceive of anything that 
would contribute to your issues, other than possibly getting a CODEC 
that tries to minimize bandwidth to the point that it causes noticeable 
distortion.  With the bandwidth available now, there's no reason for 
such CODECs to be used.


Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if Bell is unable to provide what 
you want.  I know Rogers can't.  Even if Bell were able to provide it, 
your calls would be analog only as far as their office, if that far.  
Everything beyond would be digital, likely over IP.



---
Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

may I ask what method of suicide will be best then?
From what you say, in spite of the aquired brain injury I currently 
experience, and its medical documentation, my being able to use analog 
phone service until less than a year ago,  and the like, my body is too 
much trouble to keep alive, no longer can communicate with the outside 
world safely, do my job, etc without the seizures all VOIp services cause 
me..with tests to support this.
Seems like a fine time to go according to you,  since according to you,  I 
cannot achieve what I have done just fine, even with the physical resources 
for it here in my house, or existing analog customers being around




On Thu, 7 Sep 2023, James Knott via talk wrote:


On 2023-09-07 10:06, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:

 I do have a doctor's note documenting my medical need for analog service,
 something bell refused to read and Teksavvy refused to share even with
 permission. 


Doctor's note or not, analog service, back to the central office, might not 
be available.  These days, "analog" service is generally provided over IP.  
The old analog phone line is largely history.


BTW, at some point, all phone service is carried over a digital connection 
and has been for many years.  The only question is where the conversion 
takes place.  For decades it was in the central office.  Now, it could be 
in your home, as my home phone over Rogers is, or it could be out on the 
street somewhere.


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Re: [GTALUG] Landline and Bell revisited.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-09-07 10:06, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
I do have a doctor's note documenting my medical need for analog 
service, something bell refused to read and Teksavvy refused to share 
even with permission. 


Doctor's note or not, analog service, back to the central office, might 
not be available.  These days, "analog" service is generally provided 
over IP.  The old analog phone line is largely history.


BTW, at some point, all phone service is carried over a digital 
connection and has been for many years.  The only question is where the 
conversion takes place.  For decades it was in the central office.  Now, 
it could be in your home, as my home phone over Rogers is, or it could 
be out on the street somewhere.


---
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