date:20081201

Mike had put the link up before I'd published the doc. You should be able to
reach it now. Let me know if not.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcs6phhk_35dkhtq2dj

Patience please on the other Jan  Oct ones, they will be up later today.

Cheers

Andy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:legal-talk-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Miller
Sent: 01 December 2008 12:10 PM
To: 'Licensing and other legal discussions.'
Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM Foundation / Domains / Trademark


The August of September minutes have been published. Thank you.

Fyi, the draft minutes of the latest meeting are behind password
authentication. Can the requirement for authentication be removed to make
it
generally accessible? I don't know if I have a password as a foundation
member, but I don't wish to have to remember another one without good
reason.

I notice that the October minutes have not (and also nor have the missing
January ones and the AGM 08 minutes - I mention these only for
completeness). Are these to be published in the next few days?

I think we are keen for some firm dates from the foundation re the transfer
of domain names, trade marks and other project assets. With respect, the
words 'soon', 'shortly' and 'when we get around to sorting the paperwork'
have not happened as with any speed in the past (The Jan08 minutes are
still
due to be published 'shortly'). Can we have some dates by which this will
be
completed?

Btw, is there a good reason why one can not search the pdf documents or
copy
text from them? I found it confusing that one always comes back with a
'nothing found' for any search. It is also inconvenient when one wants to
quote from the minutes.

Regards,



Peter


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:legal-talk-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
 Sent: 01 December 2008 11:57
 To: 'Licensing and other legal discussions.'
 Subject: [Spam] Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM Foundation / Domains / Trademark

 Jochen,

 We posted draft board meeting minutes to the OSMF website so you can get
 up
 to date on the workings behind the scenes. We will be doing the same each
 month going forwards.

 http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/officers-board/board-meeting-minutes/

 The osmfoundation.org and stateofthemap.org were both registered by me on
 behalf of the Foundation to get the ball rolling, it was just quicker at
 the
 time. Both will be transferred to the OSMF when we get around to sorting
 the
 paperwork.

 Cheers

 Andy


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:legal-talk-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jochen Topf
 Sent: 01 December 2008 11:30 AM
 To: Licensing and other legal discussions.
 Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM Foundation / Domains / Trademark
 
 Any news on that issue? I think a few people here are waiting for an
 official statement from Steve and from the foundation.
 
 btw: Just noticed that the osmfoundation.org domain name is also
 privately owned. By Andy Robinson in this case.
 
 Jochen
 --
 Jochen Topf  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-
 388298
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Per

Now we can see a big discussion, but no one did anything constructive!
One thing is clear, we need a tag to describe the usability of ways.
If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
Smoothness is better than nothing.

Please have a look at and comment on:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Smoothness#Be_constructive.21_Try_to_find_good_alternatives_to_smoothness.21

While Chriscfs objections are valid, he acts ignorant, uncommunicative
and destructive and should be stopped!

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chriscf

Per


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst


Per-15 wrote:
 If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
 Smoothness is better than nothing.

That's debatable (as well as, er, very_horrible).

Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
the access tags:

bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

so you'd get

highway=bridleway
foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)

It follows the time-honoured OSM principle of tag as much as you know/can
be bothered to do; crowdsourcing will make the data richer over time.

But I really can't be faffed with explaining this to a bunch of droids on
the wiki who may never have seen a bridleway in their lives but won't let
that stop them voting. 

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Lester Caine

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Per-15 wrote:
 If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
 Smoothness is better than nothing.
 
 That's debatable (as well as, er, very_horrible).
Agreed
It does not provide a platform to build on at all.

 Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
 the access tags:
 
 bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
 
 so you'd get
 
 highway=bridleway
 foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
 bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
 bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
 bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
Now that makes perfect sense and fits in with usability.

There IS a need for tagging things like width, height restrictions, and 
even 'steepness', but in the first instance simply getting a good 
coverage everywhere with a basic set of tags is more important than the 
excessive fine detail that is being proposed as 'basic tagging' ?

I don't want to reopen an old debate, but contour lines are ALMOST 
essential around here for determining the severity of a walking route, 
while those routes are well surfaced in places, the change in altitude 
makes some of them impractical for some of us 'less fit' walkers.

 It follows the time-honoured OSM principle of tag as much as you know/can
 be bothered to do; crowdsourcing will make the data richer over time.
 
 But I really can't be faffed with explaining this to a bunch of droids on
 the wiki who may never have seen a bridleway in their lives but won't let
 that stop them voting. 
If there was an obvious set of tagging then there would not be a 
problem, but as yet there is nothing proposed that *I* would consider 
provides useful information. Perhaps it is time for secondary data 
projects - like the cycle map - to have thier own set of extra tags that 
are only used for those mapping excercises?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Bernhard Zwischenbrugger


Hi


bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

so you'd get

highway=bridleway
foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)


In Vienna we have an event called Friday Night Skating.
Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal roads.
The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads that 
are for normal for cars only.


The route is about 15 to 25 km.

To plan an event like this is not easy.
It should be a different route every week.
If it's combined with sightseeing it's optimal.

There are similar events in many cities like Paris, Munich,... sometimes 
with much more skaters.


For beginners the road surface is very important.

It should be possible to plan a Friday Night Skate route with data from OSM.

If we have a tag
skate:xy
bicycle:xy
people think it's allowed to go by bike or inline skates on this roads - 
but it isn't.


For more info:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatenight
http://www.nightskating.at
http://www.muenchner-blade-night.de/

Sorry - all in German


Bernhard

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	=0D=0A=
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	Add new words as easy as in an Excel Table.
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end:vcard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 Per-15 wrote:
  If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
  Smoothness is better than nothing.

 That's debatable (as well as, er, very_horrible).

 Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
 the access tags:

 bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

 so you'd get

 highway=bridleway
 foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
 bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
 bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
 bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)

 It follows the time-honoured OSM principle of tag as much as you know/can
 be bothered to do; crowdsourcing will make the data richer over time.


This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice rink
is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).

Having an additional rating per mode of transport seems to make
substantially more sense.

I believe some one else (Matt White) has recently posted a comment, wanting
to know about a 4WD tag, to suggest that only 4WD vehicles would be
suitable. The above approach could easily (and more importantly) and clearly
indicate this.

vehicle:2wd=unsuitable
vehicle:4wd=difficult

For me one of the biggest problems with smoothness (other than it being a
terrible name), is that it is a generic tag, and we keep on seeing issues
being raised where generic tags are not suitable for specialist
hobbies/areas. We shouldn't be looking to add to this issue.

But I really can't be faffed with explaining this to a bunch of droids on
 the wiki who may never have seen a bridleway in their lives but won't let
 that stop them voting.


Further to Lester's comment.

I'm some what amazed that we have not yet split out the tags to the
different groups to allow for specialist tagging, and those that
passionately care about those tags, can monitor that page/list.

We would still want to standardise on a tagging format/method to keep things
consistent.

I would have thought we'd have sections along the lines of (and this is just
off the top of my head)

Buildings
Motorised Vehicles
Rail ways
Footways
Waterways

Cycling
Skiing
Rolerblading


etc etc, caution would need to be taken to not duplicate tags/purposes, and
I am sure we'd still have healthy discussions (arguments) when those
instances rear their ugly head.

But I do not think 1 single page, covering every possible tag makes sense,
if we are looking to be able to tag the entire planet, that page will
quickly become unsuitable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst


Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
 In Vienna we have an event called Friday Night Skating.
 Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal
 roads.
 The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads that 
 are for normal for cars only.

You can't design/evolve a tagging system for the entire planet on the basis
of an inline skating event in Vienna. That's insane.

No tagging system will ever cover 100% of cases. But far better to have one
which is 90% comprehensive and 100% intuitive, than 100% comprehensive and
25% intuitive. No-one's stopping you using less mainstream tags for your
OpenSkateMap.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

2008-12-01 Thread Claudius Henrichs

David Earl:
 I've implemented some changes to the experimental UK postcode searches
 in the Namefinder.
(...)
 1. you can now search for UK postcode prefixes, e.g. CB21. These are
 just OSM nodes.

Which OSM-tag are you querying there? postcode=x? Do you respect 
addr:postcode according to the Karlsruhe Schema?

Regards,
Claudius


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Robert Vollmert

On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:02, Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
 In Vienna we have an event called Friday Night Skating.
 Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal  
 roads.
 The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads  
 that are for normal for cars only.

 The route is about 15 to 25 km.

 To plan an event like this is not easy.
 It should be a different route every week.
 If it's combined with sightseeing it's optimal.

 There are similar events in many cities like Paris, Munich,...  
 sometimes with much more skaters.

 For beginners the road surface is very important.

 It should be possible to plan a Friday Night Skate route with data  
 from OSM.

 If we have a tag
 skate:xy
 bicycle:xy
 people think it's allowed to go by bike or inline skates on this  
 roads - but it isn't.

Since smoothness=good/excellent handles this fine, I'd suggest to just  
use it.

Cheers
Robert


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008/12/1 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hi


 bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

 so you'd get

 highway=bridleway
 foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
 bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
 bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
 bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)


 In Vienna we have an event called Friday Night Skating.
 Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal roads.
 The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads that
 are for normal for cars only.

 The route is about 15 to 25 km.

 To plan an event like this is not easy.
 It should be a different route every week.
 If it's combined with sightseeing it's optimal.

 There are similar events in many cities like Paris, Munich,... sometimes
 with much more skaters.

 For beginners the road surface is very important.

 It should be possible to plan a Friday Night Skate route with data from
 OSM.

 If we have a tag
 skate:xy
 bicycle:xy
 people think it's allowed to go by bike or inline skates on this roads -
 but it isn't.

 For more info:
 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatenight
 http://www.nightskating.at
 http://www.muenchner-blade-night.de/

 Sorry - all in German


If this is an argument in favour of smoothness, then you would run in to
exactly the same problem (just not as fine grained).

If a user see's a road as being tagged as smooth, then they'd think that
they could roller blade on it, which apparently they are not allowed to.

Here, we run in to a problem where suitability and permissibility are not
going along with each other.

With Richards suggestion you could still have.

bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
bicylcle=no

Though that to me feels ugly, but at least feasable.

Additionally, for now at least, a certain amount of sense has to be assumed,
and that you wouldn't get some one rollerblading down a dual carriage way,
during a normal day, just because a map told them it was smooth.

If they did, then I think they'd be a prime candidate for a Darwin award!
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Robert Vollmert

2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to  
 extend
 the access tags:

 bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

 so you'd get

 highway=bridleway
 foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
 bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
 bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
 bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)

The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
exotic from the provided suitabilities.

On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:09, Douglas Furlong wrote:
 This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and  
 Ice rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on  
 it!).

Hurray for absurd arguments. Obviously, 'slippery=yes' is implied on
ice rinks.

I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to  
discredit
smoothness=*. Would one of you that think smoothness is worse than  
nothing
care to comment on the definition by example I proposed in
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-November/031779.html
?

Cheers
Robert


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Robert Vollmert

On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:15, Douglas Furlong wrote:
 If this is an argument in favour of smoothness, then you would run  
 in to exactly the same problem (just not as fine grained).

 If a user see's a road as being tagged as smooth, then they'd  
 think that they could roller blade on it, which apparently they are  
 not allowed to.

 Here, we run in to a problem where suitability and permissibility  
 are not going along with each
 other.

Thus, we put permissibility in one key (skate=yes/permissive/no/...),  
physical
suitability in others (surface=*, smoothness=*, steepness=*,  
slippery=yes/no).
And we don't mix them all in one key.

Smoothness is completely independent of access rights. What gave you  
the idea
it wasn't?

Cheers
Robert


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Richard Fairhurst


Robert Vollmert wrote:
 The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
 for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
 exotic from the provided suitabilities.

Yes, infer, like we do with every other tag. People realised they didn't
need to tag bicycle=yes;horse=yes;car=yes on every road about five minutes
after OSM started. You can still find some of those ways around if you look
hard enough. ;)

 I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to  
 discredit smoothness=*.

It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just impossible. It's
like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

On 01/12/2008 10:11, Claudius Henrichs wrote:
 David Earl:
 I've implemented some changes to the experimental UK postcode searches
 in the Namefinder.
 (...)
 1. you can now search for UK postcode prefixes, e.g. CB21. These are
 just OSM nodes.
 
 Which OSM-tag are you querying there? postcode=x? Do you respect 
 addr:postcode according to the Karlsruhe Schema?

I was going to refer you to the wiki page but I realise I haven't 
documented postcodes there. I will do so now.

It's not using any tags to look up postcodes, and as I said it is only 
*UK* postcodes (which have a distinctive pattern I can search for). 
Also, as I said, it's not dealing with street addresses currently except 
to ignore numbers in key positions so they are harmless if searched for.

UK postcodes as well as being distinctive and recognisable also have the 
problem that they are copyrighted (at least, the database and 
geolocations are), so it is hard to get good coverage using OSM tags 
(because mappers have no means to collect these on the ground and don't 
have access to copyright free sources) and the freethepostcode 
initiative, though improving is still quite sparse (and, I noticed when 
processing some of it, is riddled with errors - obvious typos and wildly 
misplaced codes).

As you'll have seen from a few previous messages recently, it is my 
intention to move towards a more comprehensive, international and free 
form search, which does indeed utilise the Karlsruhe schema.

So, sorry if I raised your expectations.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Robert Vollmert wrote:
   
 I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to  
 discredit smoothness=*.
 

 It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
 very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
 hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just impossible. It's
 like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.
   
Maybe arsecomfort would be better than smoothness... you drive down 
the road, and once you reach the end, you can easily determine if your 
backside falls into the lovely, a bit sore, bruised, haemmoroid 
hell or my coccyx is coming out my nose

Works well for all types of seated vehicles...

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008/12/1 Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Douglas Furlong wrote:
  2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
  bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
 
  so you'd get
 
  highway=bridleway
  foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
  bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
  bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
  bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
 
 
  This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice
  rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).
 
  Having an additional rating per mode of transport seems to make
  substantially more sense.
 
  I believe some one else (Matt White) has recently posted a comment,
  wanting to know about a 4WD tag, to suggest that only 4WD vehicles
  would be suitable. The above approach could easily (and more
  importantly) and clearly indicate this.
 
  vehicle:2wd=unsuitable
  vehicle:4wd=difficult
 
  For me one of the biggest problems with smoothness (other than it
  being a terrible name), is that it is a generic tag, and we keep on
  seeing issues being raised where generic tags are not suitable for
  specialist hobbies/areas. We shouldn't be looking to add to this issue.
 I had a go on the smoothness talk page to simplify the tag somewhat.
 Something along the lines of a simplified 3 tag scope (eg: normal,
 bumpy, rough - or whatever prettier equivalents), where the smoothness
 tag refers to the default vehicle type (I guess car for the main highway
 tags, bike for cycleway, horse for bridle way - you get the picture).


The problem with marking smoothness for the default vehicle type, is that we
are then left in a situation where we still have to map for the non-default
vehicles.

So for a road, smoothness=average, to me would mean  actually nothing at all
to be honest, for example.

London side street, English Motorway, country side road, Irish back road,
Irish main road.

In all of the above a smoothness rating of average would be totally
different, and almost certainly have no meaning at all to a Rollerblade.

So, we come back to the same problem of how do we deal with the fringe
users, the racing bike riders, the Rollerblades, etc.

Which you cover below.


This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle types easily
 - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
 smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the tertiary
 highway type)
 smoothness:mtb=bumpy
 smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
 smoothness:tank=normal (or even glass like :-)
 smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable


I really honestly can't see how the above differs from, for example.

bicycle:mtb=bumpy
bicylce:racing_bicyle=rough
tank=normal
skate:inline=unsuitable,

Other than, we drop smoothness and replace it with the mode of transport in
question.

I would strongly suggest Richards suggestion is ultimately clearer, than the
arbitrary smoothness tag.


 I don't personally like the term smoothness either, but I've yet to
 find a decent alternative (surface would be nice, but 'tis taken).

 The 4WD proposal (plug:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4WD_Only) is a
 little bit separate. It could be taken into account using some sort of
 smoothness, track type, surface, take your pick, but I am specifically
 looking at tracks that are actually signed as 4WD only, to be rendered
 with a nice bit of text at the end of the road name to make it obvious
 what is 4WD only (most decent AU maps of hte country side have explicit
 4WD tags of those roads that require it). Good for routing and the like
 (where the relative smoothness can be a bit subjective)


 Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access restriction or
a suggestion?

I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could you
face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?

If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather see some thing
along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag, which to date I
believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as opposed to suitability,
which are not the same thing at all.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008/12/1 Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
  Robert Vollmert wrote:
 
  I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to
  discredit smoothness=*.
 
 
  It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
  very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
  hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just impossible.
 It's
  like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.
 
 Maybe arsecomfort would be better than smoothness... you drive down
 the road, and once you reach the end, you can easily determine if your
 backside falls into the lovely, a bit sore, bruised, haemmoroid
 hell or my coccyx is coming out my nose

 Works well for all types of seated vehicles...


Unfortunately, that would then depend on the quality of seat that one is
placing the arse upon :)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Dave Stubbs

2008/12/1 Robert Vollmert [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to
 extend
 the access tags:

 bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

 so you'd get

 highway=bridleway
 foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
 bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
 bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
 bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)

 The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
 for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
 exotic from the provided suitabilities.

 On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:09, Douglas Furlong wrote:
 This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and
 Ice rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on
 it!).

 Hurray for absurd arguments. Obviously, 'slippery=yes' is implied on
 ice rinks.

 I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to
 discredit
 smoothness=*. Would one of you that think smoothness is worse than
 nothing
 care to comment on the definition by example I proposed in
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-November/031779.html
 ?


Because the corner cases sometimes express the fundamental problem in
an obvious unsubtle way. Sometimes people point out corner cases just
to be annoying :-)

The reason I think no-one has commented on your definitions is because
they're infinitely better than what was actually being proposed, and
also have virtually nothing to do with what was proposed (they
actually seem to be related to smoothness!). The reason for that is
they describe a number of fairly specific examples, reduce the number
of options, and don't even try to classify the rougher examples
which is where most of the contradictions kick in. ie: a couple of
tree roots on a cycle path make it good, lots make it intermediate, no
mention of tanks.

The question most people will come up with is, what do I classify a
cycle path with an intermediate number of bumps as? You'd probably
declare it doesn't matter, which I'd be inclined to agree with. The
worst that happens is that a way spends the rest of its existence
oscillating between the two states. You could probably relate it in
some way to the cat/toast paradox, and if you could figure out a way
to generate electricity from it you'd become rich.

Or introduce a deliberately fuzzy border value like bad/intermediate.
And wait the necessary 20 mins for someone to point out this is
qualitatively different from intermediate/bad.

Anyway, the main problem with definition by example is what happens
when the examples don't fit. This happens surprisingly often. You
basically have two choices, just guess, or introduce a new example for
everyone to argue over.

You're also only defining the value for a specific purpose, which is
generally less useful than objective features which can be used for
many purposes. Of course if you're only interested in the specific
purpose that distinction isn't going to interest you, which is fair
enough.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

Douglas Furlong wrote:

 This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle types
 easily
 - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
 smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the
 tertiary
 highway type)
 smoothness:mtb=bumpy
 smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
 smoothness:tank=normal (or even glass like :-)
 smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable


 I really honestly can't see how the above differs from, for example.

 bicycle:mtb=bumpy
 bicylce:racing_bicyle=rough
 tank=normal
 skate:inline=unsuitable,

 Other than, we drop smoothness and replace it with the mode of 
 transport in question.

 I would strongly suggest Richards suggestion is ultimately clearer, 
 than the arbitrary smoothness tag.
  
I wasn't suggesting it was any better, although I kind of like the core 
key name first (smoothness:vehicletype=*) as it doesn't waste the 
primary tag (and something like skate:inline=unsuitable doesn't actually 
indicate what the why it is unsuitable (too steep, bad surface, high 
traffic volume, idiot weekend cyclistd abound etc.)

 I don't personally like the term smoothness either, but I've yet to
 find a decent alternative (surface would be nice, but 'tis taken).

 The 4WD proposal (plug:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4WD_Only) is a
 little bit separate. It could be taken into account using some sort of
 smoothness, track type, surface, take your pick, but I am specifically
 looking at tracks that are actually signed as 4WD only, to be rendered
 with a nice bit of text at the end of the road name to make it obvious
 what is 4WD only (most decent AU maps of hte country side have
 explicit
 4WD tags of those roads that require it). Good for routing and the
 like
 (where the relative smoothness can be a bit subjective)


  Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access 
 restriction or a suggestion?

 I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could 
 you face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?

 If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather see some 
 thing along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag, 
 which to date I believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as 
 opposed to suitability, which are not the same thing at all.
It is the latter (it is a recommendation) rather than a legal 
restriction. The point of such an explict tag is so that when I'm out 
driving, the map actually shows the 4WD state as text (given that I dont 
think the Garmin I have really has any other way of visually 
distinguishing the road state/vehicle requirement)

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

Douglas Furlong wrote:
 2008/12/1 Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
  Robert Vollmert wrote:
 
  I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to
  discredit smoothness=*.
 
 
  It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
  very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
  hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just
 impossible. It's
  like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.
 
 Maybe arsecomfort would be better than smoothness... you drive down
 the road, and once you reach the end, you can easily determine if 
 your
 backside falls into the lovely, a bit sore, bruised, 
 haemmoroid
 hell or my coccyx is coming out my nose

 Works well for all types of seated vehicles...


 Unfortunately, that would then depend on the quality of seat that one 
 is placing the arse upon :)
Now you're just being picky... :-)

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008/12/1 Robert Vollmert [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
 the access tags:

 bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

 so you'd get

 highway=bridleway
 foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
 bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
 bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
 bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)


 The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
 for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
 exotic from the provided suitabilities.

 On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:09, Douglas Furlong wrote:

 This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice
 rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).


 Hurray for absurd arguments. Obviously, 'slippery=yes' is implied on
 ice rinks.

 I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to discredit
 smoothness=*. Would one of you that think smoothness is worse than nothing
 care to comment on the definition by example I proposed in
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-November/031779.html
 ?


I've just had a read of this post, and I think my primary concerns are still
present.

My biggest issues is that smoothness varies depending on the vehicle in
question, and as such it's just to vague to really be of use.

If you tag a road with smoothness valid for a car user (what type of car?
4wd big effin thing, or a lotus elise?), then what about a cyclist (and lets
not even start looking at the different types of cyclists!). I just perceive
it to be far to vague to cover the average users of that way, it's got
nothing to do with fringe cases at all.

I think a merger of the two suggestions would make sense.

vehicle type:vehicle sub type=smoothness factor

This allows us to clearly define what is going on, and have it explicitly
relevant to the different vehicle types that would use it.

Yes, certain inference would be required for the majority of locations,
however it DOES allow for specialist tagging for those who care to do it in
those area's, and they would all reside together, and be easily
understandable.

smoothness factore can also have different definitions based on vehicle
types.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

Douglas Furlong wrote:
 2008/12/1 Matt White [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Douglas Furlong wrote:
 
  This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle
 types
  easily
  - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
  smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the
  tertiary
  highway type)
  smoothness:mtb=bumpy
  smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
  smoothness:tank=normal (or even glass like :-)
  smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable
 

 the bumpy/rough/unsuitable are just examples, and of course would need 
 further clarification.

 But more importantly, they could be dependant on the leading values.
Agreed. That was what I was trying to get to on the Smoothness talk page 
- a horse for courses approach. Probably not very clearly given my 
propensity for prolixia
 I.E. skate:inline, could have totally different values to bicycle:mtb, 
 which could be specified by the enthusiasts that use that form of 
 transport.

 I'm not certain why you want smoothness first, ultimately the end user 
 should never REALLY have to know about the order these values per tag, 
 we should be relying on the editors, to have reasonable graphical 
 interfaces to allow for an easy way of ticking boxing and selecting 
 drop downs of relevant values.
  
More just in keeping with existing tag/sub tag keys like name= and 
name:en= than anything else.
Given a lot of the keys that are currently in use, it's getting close to 
almost requiring a more explicit key/sub key structure (which just leads 
us to needing key:subkey: subsubkey structure :-) )

 and renders to render the maps depending on these values.


 
  I don't personally like the term smoothness either, but
 I've yet to
  find a decent alternative (surface would be nice, but 'tis
 taken).
 

  If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather
 see some
  thing along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag,
  which to date I believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as
  opposed to suitability, which are not the same thing at all.
 It is the latter (it is a recommendation) rather than a legal
 restriction. The point of such an explict tag is so that when I'm out
 driving, the map actually shows the 4WD state as text (given that
 I dont
 think the Garmin I have really has any other way of visually
 distinguishing the road state/vehicle requirement)


 This sounds a bit like tagging for the render, which I believe is 
 frowned upon.
 Having vehicle:4wd=suitable (or what ever), could just as easily be 
 rendered, as a 4wd access tag, however it would fall in to the whole 
 suitableness kinda argument that is going on.
It sort of is tagging for the renderer, although I was only going to 
mark roads that are physically sign posted as 4WD only (thus removing a 
large chunk of subjectivity). It's borderline, and I'll just modify the 
mkgmap script I use for generation of garmin maps for the moment. But 
given that there's a solid barney going on over the smoothness tag, and 
the rack tpye and surface tags both suck and don't really convey the 
meaning... well, who knows. Until then, I guess I have to use something.

I have found some tags kicking around where equipment= was used with 
reference to diff lockers, mud tyres etc. There's only about 10 4WD tags 
in the system so far.

In the long run, it does sound like the 4WD requirement might be a 
fairly specific Australian thing, so it might be more useful if us AU 
mappers agree to something useful and move on from there (note that I'm 
not a big fan of this regional key stuff, but we are stuck with a lot of 
UK-centric tags and icons, so maybe it's a chance to get our own back :-P )
 We need to separate visual representation of features, from how that 
 feature is tagged, as they are not the same thing.

 I'd be curious to know from a maintainer of one of the visualisation 
 projects, which they would find easier to work with.
Ditto.

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Bernhard Zwischenbrugger


hi

smoothness 

I found a wiki page - but it's in German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zustandserfassung_und_-bewertung

They have a scale from 1 to 5 for zustandswert:

1.5 : maximum for new roads
3.5 : warning level
4.5 : /Schwellenwert - the road must be repaired

/For measuring there is a mashine called planograph:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planograph

Here a pdf with nice pictures:
http://squadra.net/downloads/Workshop_messtechnische%20Erfassung.pdf

maybe there are similar infos in english - but I couldn't find.


Bernhard
begin:vcard
fn:Bernhard Zwischenbrugger
n:Zwischenbrugger;Bernhard
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
note;quoted-printable:liebe Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe=0D=0A=
	=0D=0A=
	Bernhard Zwischenbrugger=0D=0A=
	=0D=0A=
	http://datenkueche.com=0D=0A=
	Multi language online dictionary.=0D=0A=
	Add new words as easy as in an Excel Table.
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
version:2.1
end:vcard

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[OSM-talk] aeroway_obstacle Feature Proposal - Voting - Proposed features/aeroway obstacle

2008-12-01 Thread andras . fabian

After an RFC time of 4 weeks, and no big objections - only some minor 
corrections - I would like to promote this feature request to the Voting. 
Voting starts today 2008-12-01 and will end on 2008-12-15.

Here is the link to the proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/aeroway_obstacle

Thank you very much for your vote!

Andras Fabian
www.alpilotx.de 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

One more thing: UK postcodes have spaces in them: searching for OX13ld 
won't work as it won't recognize it as a UK postcode. You need
OX1 3LD.

However that particular example doesn't work anyway because the 
address it tries to find is not helpful. It thinks the word 
Scientist is a street name (which it could be, of course) in the 
address lookup, for which it gets in full First Church of Christ, 
Scientist, Oxford, OX1 3LD

David


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[OSM-talk] aeroway_obstacle Feature Proposal - Voting - Proposed features/aeroway obstacle

2008-12-01 Thread andras . fabian

Voting stopped by alpilotx ... Sorry guys. I have completely forgotten to check 
the Talk page. In the first days I didn't get responses and then I was 
believing, I would get automatic notification if I set the page on watch (which 
was obviously not the case). And I got only one response via the mailing list 
... 
So, again sorry for the inconvenience and I will now go back to the RFC state. 
I will see if I can clean up the - partially - valid objections from the Talk. 

Andras Fabian
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[OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
users signing up each day hasn't changed much.

Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
Students returning to studies?

If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

Cheers

Andy

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical;


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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

On 01/12/2008 12:40, Shaun McDonald wrote:
 Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or 
 ways in the osm data?

No: see my earlier reply to someone else who asked exactly the same 
question.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

2008-12-01 Thread Dave Stubbs

2008/12/1 David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On 01/12/2008 12:40, Shaun McDonald wrote:
 Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or
 ways in the osm data?

 No: see my earlier reply to someone else who asked exactly the same
 question.



I'm guessing what's confusing people is where you're getting the
postcode data from.

So just quickly, that's:

 - full post code search: Google search on postcode looking for
address - Namefinder search on address

 - prefix search, or post code used as area limiter:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/namefinder/postcodeprefix.sql

The only question remaining being, where does that SQL file come from?
NPE maps, free the postcode etc I presume?

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OSM data with JAVA

2008-12-01 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Jan Torben Heuer wrote:
 Hi, I hope this is the right place for my question.

No, definitely not. There is a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list and a
[EMAIL PROTECTED] list, both of which would be more suitable than
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I want to use OSM data for a routing client. I therefore need the
 streetdata. I heard that OSM can be accessed via postgresql

This is wrong; you can only import OSM data into a postgres instance of 
your own, you cannot access someone else's postgres.

Check out traveling salesman (- wiki.openstreetmap.org, use search) 
which is a working routing application in Java; I'm sure you can use 
that as a starting point. There are also non-Java routing 
implementations (gosmore and navit most notably) and a routing web 
service that is written in Java but wher the source is not (yet) 
available (www.openrouteservice.org).

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread 80n

In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
please? ;)


On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
 contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
 users signing up each day hasn't changed much.

 Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
 Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
 Students returning to studies?

 If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
 could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

 Cheers

 Andy

 [1]
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical;


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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

On 01/12/2008 13:45, Dave Stubbs wrote:
 2008/12/1 David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On 01/12/2008 12:40, Shaun McDonald wrote:
 Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or
 ways in the osm data?
 No: see my earlier reply to someone else who asked exactly the same
 question.

 
 
 I'm guessing what's confusing people is where you're getting the
 postcode data from.
 
 So just quickly, that's:
 
  - full post code search: Google search on postcode looking for
 address - Namefinder search on address

Correct. And there's three potential pitfalls there: (a) the postcode 
simply isn't listed, (b) it is listed but the address with it is wrong 
or misleading, (c) I am unable to parse the accompanying address or 
perhaps worse I parse it wrongly.

  - prefix search, or post code used as area limiter:
 http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/namefinder/postcodeprefix.sql
 
 The only question remaining being, where does that SQL file come from?
 NPE maps, free the postcode etc I presume?

Correct (though I added the names of the post towns by web searching 
where I didn't know them anyway).

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Donald Allwright

In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads 
please? ;)

I think you'll find that if you start mapping footpaths, it'll at least partly 
solve the problem. Footpaths, by definition, cannot (legally) be cycled on so 
you have to do them on foot. Which means your number of miles mapped per hour 
of mapping drops off to a much lower level. You'll feel you've wasted your time 
the first time you see the results, but that feeling soon goes. :-)

Donald


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Dave Stubbs

2008/12/1 80n [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
 please? ;)


There's the whole world of addresses open to you + you could always
move house :-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Chris Browet

2008/12/1 80n [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
 please? ;)


Indeed, I think that the stat doesn't say much. In crowded areas like
Germany or UK, there will be a time where there won't be anything left to
map.

The real interesting stat is to see what is happening in areas where there
is still much to do, but that would need to take the location of the users
and the density of the map into account.

- Chris -
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Ed Loach

Andy asked:

 If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has
 now stopped
 could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I've not stopped as such, but there are a number of factors that
mean I can't contribute as much as I did initially.

When I started mapping I went out for about an hour each evening
after work capturing the local roads using GPS and then mapping them
when I got home. There were a lot to do. I can't do that now
because:

* It's dark by the time I finish work
* Most of the local roads are done, so an hour doesn't really give
me the time to get any roads that need tracing and back

So now I'm limited to taking strange routes to get from A to B to
try and add POIs, which in terms of number of points contributed
will be much fewer. Oh, and I had three hours on Saturday free that
I spent driving around Harwich, Dovercourt, and Parkeston, adding
the details to the map on Sunday though someone had helpfully traced
many of my Saturday uploaded GPX tracks already so I really just had
to apply tags in most cases and add the POIs from the photos
imported against the relevant track in JOSM.

I would guess that many of the well populated areas may have similar
issues, in that they need to go further afield now to map. The new
contributors won't be evenly distributed across the planet
(unfortunately), so many of them will find that if they live in well
populated areas much of the stuff will be mapped.

I'll be back in Dovercourt on Wednesday evening and in Wheatley and
Oxford on Thursday afternoon/evening/Friday morning but while I'll
take the GT-31 with me I doubt I'll find much to add new while I'm
there, though looking at the UK A roads project pages I might be
able to find a route to take in the A120 around Braintree, though
need to check that it hasn't already been done and the wiki page not
updated.

Ed

PS: Just seen the other responses which suggest mapping footpaths
and house numbers. It's something I've considered, and indeed I did
a few footpaths one evening when walking into town, but again you
can't really get far if you have an hour to get there and back, plus
it is now dark and cold(er) in the evenings. 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Elena of Valhalla

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
 If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
 could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I have almost stopped mapping in the latest month or two for a couple
of reasons:

* less light in the evening: I can't see/take a pic of street names
when returning home in the evening, especially if it is also raining
and/or foggy
* rain and a little snow: not exactly something that encourages
outdoor activities :) (but wait for some decent snow and I will be
back mapping :) )
* a few other reason that prevented me from having free time for mapping

anyway, it's just temporary, I've already had a couple abstinence
crisis, so I hope to be back mapping soon :)

-- 
Elena of Valhalla

homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [OSM-talk] Coordinate in wiki page

2008-12-01 Thread Andy Allan

I've no idea where that template comes from - is it a wikipedia thing?
Very few wikipedia templates have been also copied onto the
openstreetmap wiki.

 In answer to your second question, yep, most links are hardcoded
simple urls, but you might want to consider either embedding a map
(see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Slippy_Map_MediaWiki_Extension
) or a place sidebox (see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Creating_city_pages#Using_a_template_to_create_the_page_text
)

Cheers,
Andy

2008/11/30 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Hi

 I tried this:

 {{Coordinate|article=/|NS=48.054048|EW=14.705797|type=city|region=AT-03}}

 But ist does not work.

 How to make a link to the map? Hardcoded?


 Bernhard


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Re: [OSM-talk] XAPI relations query returns only nodes

2008-12-01 Thread David Carmean


The queries that failed were attempts to find all relations of 
any type, so .../api/0.5/relation[type=*][bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
or .../api/0.5/relation[bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0] 
only returned nodes.



On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 07:34:52PM +, 80n wrote:
 David
 I just tested it with /api/0.5/relation[type=route] and the response looked
 ok.  Plenty of relation elements.
 
 What query did you actually use?
 
 80n
 
 On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:09 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  I recently ran a XAPI query for relations, which returned only nodes and
  not the
  relations themselves.  Not very useful, I'd say :)
 
  XAPI queries for ways have also been returning associated relations.
 
  Any XAPI developers on the list?
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread John McKerrell


On 1 Dec 2008, at 14:56, Elena of Valhalla wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
 If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now  
 stopped
 could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

My mapping has been really sporadic this year as I don't have anything  
particularly local to work on. I did go out for a big 3 hour session  
at the weekend so hopefully that'll help to turn the graph around :-)

John

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

Donald Allwright wrote:
Sent: 01 December 2008 2:13 PM
To: 80n; talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more
roads please? ;)

I think you'll find that if you start mapping footpaths, it'll at least
partly solve the problem. Footpaths, by definition, cannot (legally) be
cycled on so you have to do them on foot. Which means your number of miles
mapped per hour of mapping drops off to a much lower level. You'll feel
you've wasted your time the first time you see the results, but that
feeling soon goes. :-)

At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of no cycling on urban
footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)

Seriously though, last winter I added the local unpaved public footpaths
that fingered out into the countryside around me. I'll be doing more this
winter but then that will have about wrapped them up. 

I reckon I have one more season of mapping to the north of Birmingham
(Walsall, Brownhills, Cannock and Lichfield etc) before like some other
contributors I'll need to refocus my mapping or move house. I'm already
mapping 10 miles from home and it really isn't justifiable to map further
out.

The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of our
planet

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Donald Allwright



At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of no cycling on urban
footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)

Unfortunately the mud doesn't, which if Saturday is anything to go by would 
have been a bit too much for my non-mountain bike :-)

The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of our
planet

Last winter I spent many dark evenings tracing the jungle rivers and mountain 
lakes in Peru from the yahoo satellite images. The vast majority of this will 
be nigh-on impossible to map using a GPS, so I considered this to be a useful 
contribution in an area previously mostly empty (OSM-wise). Some of these have 
probably never been mapped to this level of accuracy before. And I still 
haven't finished yet (Lakes are only about half-way up the country, and most of 
the coastal rivers still need doing), so I reckon that'll keep me going this 
winter. Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of water unmapped, so that would be 
something you could consider. I'm sure there are many other parts of the world 
with similar needs. As urban areas lend themselves well to on-the-ground 
mappers with GPS devices these are better left to locals who can gather street 
names, but even here I reckon there's room for basic mapping of major highways 
from satellite, as that will form a
 framework around which people on the ground can organise their own mapping. 
For example people might decide to map completely a square enclosed by roads, 
rivers etc., but unless these features are already on the map it's harder to 
plan something like this. When I actually got to visit one such road I was able 
to adjust it on the basis of GPS data, thus improving the accuracy.

Donald



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Igor Brejc

How about covering your area with land use data using yahoo/landsat? 
It's something I do occasionally at the end of the work day when I'm 
totally exhausted - it's a nice dumb work which helps my brain turn off. 
And it comes handy for various hiking maps (example of my area: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.5045lon=15.534zoom=12layers=0B00FTF).

Anyway, I find mapping footpaths in forests much more interesting than 
plain old residential streets and roads - fewer people tend to cover 
them and sometimes it turns out be a real adventure - getting lost or 
meeting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wild_Boar_Habbitat_3.jpg

Not to mention the health benefits ;)

Igor

Donald Allwright wrote:

 At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of no cycling on urban
 footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)

 Unfortunately the mud doesn't, which if Saturday is anything to go by 
 would have been a bit too much for my non-mountain bike :-)

 The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
 nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of our
 planet

 Last winter I spent many dark evenings tracing the jungle rivers and 
 mountain lakes in Peru from the yahoo satellite images. The vast 
 majority of this will be nigh-on impossible to map using a GPS, so I 
 considered this to be a useful contribution in an area previously 
 mostly empty (OSM-wise). Some of these have probably never been mapped 
 to this level of accuracy before. And I still haven't finished yet 
 (Lakes are only about half-way up the country, and most of the coastal 
 rivers still need doing), so I reckon that'll keep me going this 
 winter. Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of water unmapped, so that 
 would be something you could consider. I'm sure there are many other 
 parts of the world with similar needs. As urban areas lend themselves 
 well to on-the-ground mappers with GPS devices these are better left 
 to locals who can gather street names, but even here I reckon there's 
 room for basic mapping of major highways from satellite, as that will 
 form a framework around which people on the ground can organise their 
 own mapping. For example people might decide to map completely a 
 square enclosed by roads, rivers etc., but unless these features are 
 already on the map it's harder to plan something like this. When I 
 actually got to visit one such road I was able to adjust it on the 
 basis of GPS data, thus improving the accuracy.

 Donald

 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread graham

80n wrote:
 In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more 
 roads please? ;)

Surrey is finished??!! Congratulations, I missed that!

I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely 
unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I 
know ;-)

Graham





 
 
 On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
 contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
 users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
 
 Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
 Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
 Students returning to studies?
 
 If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now
 stopped
 could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
 
 Cheers
 
 Andy
 
 [1]
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical;
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

Igor Brejc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sent: 01 December 2008 3:57 PM
To: Donald Allwright
Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists); 80n; talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

How about covering your area with land use data using yahoo/landsat?
It's something I do occasionally at the end of the work day when I'm
totally exhausted - it's a nice dumb work which helps my brain turn off.
And it comes handy for various hiking maps (example of my area:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.5045lon=15.534zoom=12layers=0B00FTF
).

Anyway, I find mapping footpaths in forests much more interesting than
plain old residential streets and roads - fewer people tend to cover
them and sometimes it turns out be a real adventure - getting lost or
meeting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wild_Boar_Habbitat_3.jpg

Not to mention the health benefits ;)

This really depends on where you live. If you live in a major city then you
don't have much option but to map residential streets. Otherwise it's a
special trip out to the countryside. Not something you can easily do in a
lunch hour or after work.

A few locations excepted (eg the USA) the majority of urban conurbations
don't have Yahoo aerial imagery. Landsat is fine for generality but isn't
detailed enough to be of any use whatsoever in an urban sprawl. You get much
better results from detailed on the ground mapping in these instances.

Landsat is however a great starting point for blank areas of the map,
especially were water is present. Perhaps we should all strive to pick an
area of the world and add what we can from Landsat. Would be a useful drive,
especially for those that don't much like tracing Yahoo! or those that use
JOSM and find displaying Yahoo! a faff.

Cheers

Andy

Igor

Donald Allwright wrote:

 At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of no cycling on urban
 footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)

 Unfortunately the mud doesn't, which if Saturday is anything to go by
 would have been a bit too much for my non-mountain bike :-)

 The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
 nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of
our
 planet

 Last winter I spent many dark evenings tracing the jungle rivers and
 mountain lakes in Peru from the yahoo satellite images. The vast
 majority of this will be nigh-on impossible to map using a GPS, so I
 considered this to be a useful contribution in an area previously
 mostly empty (OSM-wise). Some of these have probably never been mapped
 to this level of accuracy before. And I still haven't finished yet
 (Lakes are only about half-way up the country, and most of the coastal
 rivers still need doing), so I reckon that'll keep me going this
 winter. Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of water unmapped, so that
 would be something you could consider. I'm sure there are many other
 parts of the world with similar needs. As urban areas lend themselves
 well to on-the-ground mappers with GPS devices these are better left
 to locals who can gather street names, but even here I reckon there's
 room for basic mapping of major highways from satellite, as that will
 form a framework around which people on the ground can organise their
 own mapping. For example people might decide to map completely a
 square enclosed by roads, rivers etc., but unless these features are
 already on the map it's harder to plan something like this. When I
 actually got to visit one such road I was able to adjust it on the
 basis of GPS data, thus improving the accuracy.

 Donald

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

graham wrote:
Sent: 01 December 2008 4:07 PM
To: osm
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely
unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I
know ;-)

What part? How Big? Is it available for a mapping party :-)

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Donald Allwright



It's very common in Bolivia at least that river have very different
water levels, is there  a tag for this? Usually you have a large
riverbed and then a very small river running in the middle for most
part of the year, and then sometimes it will flood all the way up to
the riverbanks.

I have take the approach that the 'river' is the part where vegetation doesn't 
grow. A lot of the time much of this won't actually be underwater, but the 
actual channel within the riverbed will change very rapidly, possibly with 
every flooding, whereas the river bed itself will change less rapidly (but 
still rapidly enough that, say, 10 years down the line it will be significantly 
different). This is also relatively easy to tell from even low-res satellite 
imagery - unless the river bed has green mud of course! Looked at another way, 
the vegetation is there because that area hasn't had a flood severe enough to 
wash it away, at least within the timespan it takes for the vegetation to grow.

Having said that, if anyone can think of a better way of doing this I'm open to 
suggestions. I think in reality though the concept of 'edge of the river' is 
fairly ill-defined in areas where it hasn't been interfered with by mankind, in 
much the same way as the location of a coastline changes. The fact is that the 
coastline oscillates nearly twice a day, and low-water and high-water are 
merely approximations that allow us to put something on a map. You wouldn't 
want to build a house between the two lines though.

Donald


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Inge Wallin

On Monday 01 December 2008 13:59:32 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
 The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
 contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
 users signing up each day hasn't changed much.

 Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
 Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
 Students returning to studies?

I'd say winter.  It's definitely the case for me (Sweden) and if you look at 
the statistics you will find exactly the same dip during the same period last 
year.

 If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
 could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I haven't actually stopped, it's just slowed down.  But I imagine others that 
could stop temporarily.

-Inge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread John07

Inge Wallin schrieb:
 On Monday 01 December 2008 13:59:32 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
   
 The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
 contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
 users signing up each day hasn't changed much.

 Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
 Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
 Students returning to studies?
 

 I'd say winter.  It's definitely the case for me (Sweden) and if you look at 
 the statistics you will find exactly the same dip during the same period last 
 year.
   
Yes, the weather is one issue.  But i would love it to map in a 
snow-covered landscape :-)

Jonas


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread sylvain letuffe

On Monday 01 December 2008 15:00, 80n wrote:
 In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
 please? ;)
+1
And I don't care about street numbers
-- 
Sylvain Letuffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
qui suis-je : http://slyserv.dyndns.org



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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Gervase Markham

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Gervase Markham wrote:
 Most of all since we're growing exponentially and even if we had 90% of 
 mappers agree on something today, in two or three months those 90% would 
 perhaps only form 30% of the community...
 This is actually an argument _for_ Map_Features and some sort of
 meritocracy, not against.
 
 It was intended as an argument *against* binding votes. Anything that is 
 carried by a (even vast!) majority today might be a minority opinion a 
 few months later.

But all of those new people generally have far less mapping, OSM and
tagging experience than the older people. Which means that if you don't
have some sort of binding (or at least, highly recommended) set of tags
created by those with more experience, different people will make the
same newbie mistakes over and over again when it comes to thinking up tags.

Lots of other projects (e.g. Wikipedia) have a regular flux of
newcomers. They don't seem to think that this stops them making policy,
or having experienced people making decisions about style or the way of
doing things and then having them enforced. The pseudo-egalitarianism of
the opinion of everyone who is involved has equal weight is a recipe
for either deadlock or anarchy. No project - commercial or volunteer,
large or small - runs itself that way.

Gerv


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Alex Mauer

Douglas Furlong wrote:
 My biggest issues is that smoothness varies depending on the vehicle in
 question, and as such it's just to vague to really be of use.

No it doesn't.  It's not like a paving machine runs just ahead of every
off-road vehicle, making the road smoother for them.  The smoothness of
the way is the same, whether you're using inline skates, or a tank.

The vehicle is just a tool for measuring the smoothness.

At one end of the scale, you have a perfectly smooth ride (or at least
the best the vehicle can give), no matter what vehicle you're in.

At the other end, you have total unsuitability for all but a few vehicles.

 If you tag a road with smoothness valid for a car user (what type of car?
 4wd big effin thing, or a lotus elise?),

Did you even read the smoothness key page?  It clearly defines different
values for each of them.  If it's usable in the former, it's at worst
smoothness=horrible.  If it's usable in the latter, it's at worst
smoothness=intermediate.

There is no smoothness valid for a car user.  bad is usable by a
normal car, intermediate is usable by a sports car.  (I consider the
Elise a sports car).

 then what about a cyclist (and lets
 not even start looking at the different types of cyclists!). I just perceive
 it to be far to vague to cover the average users of that way, it's got
 nothing to do with fringe cases at all.

There is no generic cyclist.  It depends on type of bicycle they're
using.  And smoothness takes that into account.  A mountain bike (and a
suitably skilled rider, presumably) can use routes that a racing bike
cannot.

 specialist tagging for those who care to do it in
 those area's

That's not what the smoothness key attempts to accomplish.  What it
attempts to do is give a simple, single-key estimate of how rough/smooth
a road or path is.  The various vehicle types are there only to give
examples of what sort of vehicles can be expected to tolerate a given
class of road (and to say how a road which can be tolerated by a given
vehicle should be classified).

Are there perhaps two different sets of expectations for the smoothness
key?  On the one hand, there are people who expect something like
mtb:scale and sac_scale, where it defines the quality or difficulty of a
given route for a given vehicle type.  And on the other hand, there are
people who just want to know how smooth the route is (based on what
vehicles can handle it), and can judge from there whether they're
willing to take their vehicle down it.  I think the smoothness key is
currently based around the latter, and that the objections come from the
former.

-Alex Mauer hawke



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread 80n

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 80n wrote:
  In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more
  roads please? ;)

 Surrey is finished??!! Congratulations, I missed that!



To clarify, my immediate area is complete in every direction as far as I can
go before meeting another area that is already mapped. And by complete I
mean all everything down to post boxes but not as far as house numbers.

As far as Surrey is concerned all towns and large villages are fairly well
mapped.  I don't think we can declare it finished yet but it's not far off.

I don't know how other counties are doing.  Are any others near to
completion?

80n



 I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely
 unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I
 know ;-)

 Graham





 
 
  On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
  contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of
 new
  users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
 
  Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
  Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
  Students returning to studies?
 
  If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now
  stopped
  could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
 
  Cheers
 
  Andy
 
  [1]
  
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical;
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

80n wrote:
Sent: 01 December 2008 5:38 PM
To: graham
Cc: osm
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   80n wrote:
In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some
more
roads please? ;)

   Surrey is finished??!! Congratulations, I missed that!

To clarify, my immediate area is complete in every direction as far as I
can go before meeting another area that is already mapped. And by complete
I mean all everything down to post boxes but not as far as house numbers.

As far as Surrey is concerned all towns and large villages are fairly well
mapped.  I don't think we can declare it finished yet but it's not far off.

I don't know how other counties are doing.  Are any others near to
completion?

Rutland of course still needs a lot of the rural highways and bridleways
adding but is otherwise in good shape from the previous mapping party.

Probably next up will be Cheshire which Chris Morley, Richard Bullock and
others have been steadily knocking off.

Cheers

Andy

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[OSM-talk] State of the Map 2009 - Update

2008-12-01 Thread Nick Black

Hello,

Here's a quick update on the planning of the State of the Map 2009:

Proposals: We've received 3 proposals to host the conference in 2009 from
Gran Canaria, Amsterdam and Trento (Italy)

Working Group: Following last week's board meeting we established a working
group to deal with the State of the Map 2009 organisation.  The working
group consists of Nick Black (Chair) - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mike
Collinson - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Coast -
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Waeit - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Robinson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Etienne ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will be
looking after the finances from the OSM Foundation's stand point.  I will
get in touch with other volunteers once the organisation process propper
gets under-way.  The SOTM Working Group's role will be to coordinate and
assist the organisation efforts of the local group.

Timeline: Unfortunately we will not be announcing the host candidate today,
as per the schedule.  A decision will be made by the working group by the
15th December.  The SOTM09 working group will be meeting to discuss the
proposals over the next two weeks, so you'll be able to book your flights
before christmas.

Thanks,

-- 
Nick Black

OpenStreetMap Foundation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Gour

 Andy == Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hi Andy,

Andy If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now
Andy stopped could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I got my 1st GPS (76CSx) few days ago and do not own bike (yet),
although preparing the house in the country-side where we'll move in 4
months. The whole area as well as 'my' country is not covered much, so
I'm looking forward to start working (aka: contributing) to OSM project.


Sincerely,
Gour

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[OSM-talk] Reuse of Ordinance Survey maps

2008-12-01 Thread paul youlten

http://spatialnews.geocomm.com/dailynews/2008/nov/17/news4.html

;-)
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[OSM-talk] Reuse of Ordinance Survey maps

2008-12-01 Thread paul youlten

http://spatialnews.geocomm.com/dailynews/2008/nov/17/news4.html

;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

Hi!

Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 The problem with the notesapi branch is not that it's the same
 database but just that it takes the wrong approach to doing things
 within that database.
 
 For the record my preference would very much be for this to be a
 rails based system within the current database.

I am definitely in favour of a rails based system, too. When you said
within the current database did you mean implementing it using nodes
and ways or just placing some more tables within the current database?

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

Hi!

Bernhard Zwischenbrugger [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 What about defining the API first?

Yes, at least before starting some serious programming. My basic idea
for the api was to allow to add, search/filter, and modify bug reports
through a RESTful controller. The search/filter output should be able
to provide rss feeds to enable watching an area for changes and new
bugs. 
I haven't really thought about email or jabber notifications. At the
moment I am just thinking of hooking some notification classes into the
main api. These can then send out what ever type of notification is
requested (text messages on your mobile depending on your current
location?).

 And before defining the API we need the use cases.

I tried to put some use cases on the proposal page already. Feel free
to add more (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bugtracker_proposal).

 An other thing I would like to see are bug reports in XMPP (Jabber)
 Network. Think about a map that shows you a new report without
 polling. People could discuss immediately in a small chat window
 about this bug. Scalability shouldn't be a problem with XMPP.

Such a system might be an interesting job to set up. It could probably
be implemented as a transport for jabber that impersonates each bug
report with a new user. Everyone who has added one of these users to
their roster gets all messages other people send to this user. Another
option would be some multi-user chat but I cannot really image how to
do this.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Christoph Böhme wrote:
  That sounds good. I will see at the weekend if it really is a piece
  of cake. Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side
  code from osb for a web-based client-side interface?
 
 Before you get all cranked up writing something new, be sure to check 
 out the notes API branch in SVN, where something OSB-like has been 
 attempted in rails already. I don't know by whom and what the status
 is but I'm sure you will find out.

Thanks, I will have a look at it. I did a bit to much mapping at the
weekend and only managed to install the rails port. However, at the
moment I am a bit confused anyway and not sure what I am going to
implement.

  Especially it would not help anyone if bug reports
  contain different information depending which user interface was
  used to add them to the database. Just imagine the situation where
  a user adds a bug through the web interface and a mapper requests
  the bugs with JOSM. Both pieces of software need to use the same
  model of information in the report and the same concept of how to
  process the bug report.
 
 This is very short-sighted - coming from someone who has worked with 
 OSM! Who are you to know in advance what cool ideas the writers of
 bug tracking software might have? Just because you cannot think of
 anything beyond severity, class and comment doesn't mean nobody
 else can. Let the writers of software decide, do not constrain them
 by your limited imagination.

 If someone comes up with a cool new tag the makes reporting and
 handling bugs much easier, then let him do that and write his own
 cool interface for it. If it works well then others will copy the
 idea. By postulating that everyone will have to work with the
 smallest common denominator, you are killing off creativity.
 
 It's ok to have a few suggested standard attributes like severity and
 so on, but never close the door to enhancements.

I should have excepted this reply ;-) and I have to admit I was quite
focused on developing just a bugtracker and nothing more. Though, I
did not assume I could write the ultimate bug tracking application
that would never need to be extended or accompanied by other tools. My
argument was basically that changes will not happen as often in a bug
tracker as they do for mapping. So, I assumed it would be sufficient to
be able to change the table definitions in the database if new ideas pop
up. But after thinking about this for a while now I can actually see
no advantage of structured bug reports compared to tagged ones. So,
let's go for the tagging approach!

There is only one (technical) question remaining: If we use the same
tagging scheme we could as well store the bug reports directly in the
main database instead of setting up additional tables. The only
problems I can see with this are: 
 - Notifications when new bugs are added
 - How to handle file attachments (through an additional api?)
 - Changesets in api 0.6 (I do not like the idea of creating a
   new changeset for every single bug)

Perhaps this questions should better be asked on dev?

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

Xav [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Christoph Böhme a écrit :
  Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side code from 
  osb for a web-based client-side interface?
 
 If it is a moral question : of course.
 If it is a technical question : 50% of the code has to be rewriten.

Fine, it would at the very least give us something to start with. 

 But when I proposed the use of tags, I thought about the 
 clients-developper :
 
   - I want the simplier interface with only lat/lon/date, two bug 
 states, and a text. I do not want a crapy interface with 30 text
 areas and 60 combo-boxes
 
   - Someone will desire to add a zoom level for each bug, the email
 of the authors, and three bug states
 
   - Someone else will want a reference to the OSM data, the diameter
 of the area that the bug describes, the age of the mother of the
 author, etc.
 
 The tag=value schema does all this.
 And, as the OSM end-user clients (like Mapnik, [EMAIL PROTECTED], routing
 softwares), there are only small pieces of the data that are rendered
 depending of the choice of the rendered.

As I wrote earlier, I made my mind up about the tagging scheme and I
think it is probably the best solution.

  I do not think that it would be the best idea to put images in the 
 database besides it is technically possible with a classical
 database ; I do not know about OSM database. An URL to a solid file
 seems to me much more efficient.

True. It only means that there need to be an additional api for
uploading files which works smoothly together with the main api.
 
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Christoph Böhme wrote:
  That sounds good. I will see at the weekend if it really is a piece
  of cake. Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side
  code from osb for a web-based client-side interface?
 
 Before you get all cranked up writing something new, be sure to check 
 out the notes API branch in SVN, where something OSB-like has been 
 attempted in rails already. I don't know by whom and what the status
 is but I'm sure you will find out.

Thanks, I will have a look at it. I did a bit to much mapping at the
weekend and only managed to install the rails port. However, at the
moment I am a bit confused anyway and not sure what I am going to
implement.

  Especially it would not help anyone if bug reports
  contain different information depending which user interface was
  used to add them to the database. Just imagine the situation where
  a user adds a bug through the web interface and a mapper requests
  the bugs with JOSM. Both pieces of software need to use the same
  model of information in the report and the same concept of how to
  process the bug report.
 
 This is very short-sighted - coming from someone who has worked with 
 OSM! Who are you to know in advance what cool ideas the writers of
 bug tracking software might have? Just because you cannot think of
 anything beyond severity, class and comment doesn't mean nobody
 else can. Let the writers of software decide, do not constrain them
 by your limited imagination.

 If someone comes up with a cool new tag the makes reporting and
 handling bugs much easier, then let him do that and write his own
 cool interface for it. If it works well then others will copy the
 idea. By postulating that everyone will have to work with the
 smallest common denominator, you are killing off creativity.
 
 It's ok to have a few suggested standard attributes like severity and
 so on, but never close the door to enhancements.

I should have excepted this reply ;-) and I have to admit I was quite
focused on developing just a bugtracker and nothing more. Though, I
did not assume I could write the ultimate bug tracking application
that would never need to be extended or accompanied by other tools. My
argument was basically that changes will not happen as often in a bug
tracker as they do for mapping. So, I assumed it would be sufficient to
be able to change the table definitions in the database if new ideas pop
up. But after thinking about this for a while now I can actually see
no advantage of structured bug reports compared to tagged ones. So,
let's go for the tagging approach!

There is only one (technical) question remaining: If we use the same
tagging scheme we could as well store the bug reports directly in the
main database instead of setting up additional tables. The only
problems I can see with this are: 
 - Notifications when new bugs are added
 - How to handle file attachments (through an additional api?)
 - Changesets in api 0.6 (I do not like the idea of creating a
   new changeset for every single bug)

Perhaps this questions should better be asked on dev?

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread graham

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
graham wrote:
Sent: 01 December 2008 4:07 PM
To: osm
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely
unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I
know ;-)

What part? How Big? Is it available for a mapping party :-)

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=42.45526825544973lon=13.927090173991406zoom=17layers=BF000F

The area is Abruzzo.

Penne (my town) itself is 'done' - except that a lot is guesswork as the
streets are too narrow to get a good signal and you have to do it from
odd points.

None of the other small towns in the area are even started. We've just
about done the 'A' roads but lots of the others are undone.

For the rest of Abruzzo: one person has done Pescara (the capital, on
the coast) and one Montesilvano, which joins on to it. One person is
doing Lanciano further south, and one just started on L'Aquila (the
other big town), but all the other towns the same size as Penne (eg.
Chieti, Citta Sant Angelo, Atri) are still to do. There's another person
in osm with a house to let near Teramo (also not mapped), about 40km
north of Penne but the road between is so wiggly it makes me feel ill..

It's a very hilly area, you need to be fit if you're cycling (and I
don't have a bike there) - but loads of little kids go shooting up the
hills, cycling is a big sport in the area. Obviously it's flatter near
the coast; the mountain has a huge plateau on top with trails and horse
trekking routes - not in winter though. There is a lot of scope for
walking mapping round small old towns, and for driving mapping round
country roads.

My place has one double-bedroom, one with two single beds, one living
room with sofa bed, two bathrooms. For a mapping party I'd have to cover
my (fairly minimal) costs but have convinced my missis we could do it
without charging otherwise, as long as it isn't in the really peak season.

There is an english lady in Penne who runs a BB and does walking tours
- she is grumbling about the lack of available printed maps to give her
customers, and I was hoping to get round to doing a contour map and
experimenting with putting one of her walking routes on it. She might be
very amenable to letting her BB (actually a floor in an old palazzo) be
used if she knew she might be getting something like that back from it..

Cheers
Graham

Cheers

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread maning sambale

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:00 PM, 80n [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
 please? ;)

We need more volunteers in Metro manila ;)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=14.594717284692324lon=121.03235961646361zoom=11

You have two options:
1. Visit us and start cycling our roads.  It sunny here and there's no winter.
2. Yahoo!



cheers,
maning




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| '-._7' |Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden|
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features

2008-12-01 Thread Stephen Hope


  Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access restriction or
 a suggestion?

 I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could you
 face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?


It's a warning, not a restriction.  I regularly take my 2WD on one of
these roads, every time I visit my aunt. On the other hand, I'm only
going about 2 kilometres, I know I can handle that bit of the road as
long as it isn't raining so hard the surface has turned to porridge,
and the really bad parts are past her house. I've gotten a few odd
looks from 4WD drivers going the other way (passing isn't easy,
either), but no one's ever tried to stop me.

On the other hand, some of these roads are hundreds of kilometres
long, with possible fords/flooding, steep hills, bad ruts, and no
inhabitants to turn to for help. I wouldn't want to take a single 4WD
on those roads, let alone a 2WD.

Stephen

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[OSM-talk] GIS bigwigs taking notice of openstreetmap

2008-12-01 Thread maning sambale

Just noticed this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/James%20Fee/diary/4223

James Fee of http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com,
now contributing to Openstreetmap.  The heavyweights of geoblogging
are here!  Welcome!

Can't wait for Dr. Tomlinson, Goodchild and Burrough to chime in. ;)

cheers,
maning
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Re: [OSM-talk] XAPI relations query returns only nodes

2008-12-01 Thread 80n

David
Both these queries seem to work ok when I try them.

The actual URLs I used were:
wget
http://osm.bearstech.com/osmxapi/api/0.5/relation[type=*][bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]which
returned a file of 107,839,289 bytes containing 485,694 nodes, 46,128
ways and 1,238 relations.

And:
wget
http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/relation[bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
which returned 108,617,239 bytes containing 489,529 nodes, 46,373 ways and
1,264 relations.

What did you get?  Is it possible your results got truncated in some way?

80n

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:59 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 The queries that failed were attempts to find all relations of
 any type, so .../api/0.5/relation[type=*][bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
 or .../api/0.5/relation[bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
 only returned nodes.



 On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 07:34:52PM +, 80n wrote:
  David
  I just tested it with /api/0.5/relation[type=route] and the response
 looked
  ok.  Plenty of relation elements.
 
  What query did you actually use?
 
  80n
 
  On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:09 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
   I recently ran a XAPI query for relations, which returned only nodes
 and
   not the
   relations themselves.  Not very useful, I'd say :)
  
   XAPI queries for ways have also been returning associated relations.
  
   Any XAPI developers on the list?
  
  
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

2008-12-01 Thread Karl Eichwalder

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 This really depends on where you live. If you live in a major city then you
 don't have much option but to map residential streets. Otherwise it's a
 special trip out to the countryside. Not something you can easily do in a
 lunch hour or after work.

Yes, but it depends.  In most German cities public transport systems are
not that bad.  With a bus or lightrail or even riding your bike it does
not take more than 15 or 30 minutes you are in the woods (sad story,
riding additional 15 or 30 minutes you will reach the next village or
town...).

 A few locations excepted (eg the USA) the majority of urban conurbations
 don't have Yahoo aerial imagery.

Yahoo just recently started to serve more images in the Northern Bavaria
(Franconia).  It's worth checking from time to time.

-- 
Karl Eichwalder

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[OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Lambert Carsten

Hoi,

Ik kwam een raar verloop tegen van de gemeente grens in Amsterdam:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.33308lon=4.92431zoom=16

Volgens de history in Potlach zijn die boundaries ruim een maand geleden 
opnieuw geïmporteerd uit AND. (Het betreft hier Way: #27963078.)

Weet iemand mij te vertellen waar ik informatie kan vinden om die grenzen te 
corrigeren? (En die ik mag gebruiken uiteraard!)

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Lambert Carsten

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] End-of-year party

2008-12-01 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Joepie!

Ik ben even langs het door mij voorgestelde cafe gelopen (De Vergulde
Gaper) en we kunnen daar gewoon een tafel reserveren.
Zal ik dat even regelen?

Het cafe is op 5 minuten lopen vanaf Amsterdam Centraal Station.
De locatie op onze kaart klopt niet helemaal dus die heb ik aangepast...

Het is op de hoek van de Prinsenstraat en Prinsengracht.

Groet,
Floris

 OSM-vrienden,

 Het heeft even wat op zich laten wachten, maar heb nu toch even de datum
 geprikt voor onze end-of-year party.

 Het is zondag de 14e december geworden. Locatie: Amsterdam.
 Mocht je je nog niet hebben opgegeven, schroom niet en wees welkom.

 Houdt de wiki in de gaten voor de laatste ontwikkelingen:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Netherlands_Mapping_Parties_2008#OSM_end-of-year_party_-_Amsterdam

 Gr,
 Henk Hoff

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Eugene van der Pijll

Lambert Carsten schreef:
 Ik kwam een raar verloop tegen van de gemeente grens in Amsterdam:
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.33308lon=4.92431zoom=16

Wat is daar vreemd aan?

groeten,
Eugene

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Ldp

Eugene van der Pijll wrote:
 Lambert Carsten schreef:
 Ik kwam een raar verloop tegen van de gemeente grens in Amsterdam:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.33308lon=4.92431zoom=16
 
 Wat is daar vreemd aan?

Juist. Wat is de definitie van raar? Heb je de grenzen in 
Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog al eens bekeken, Lambert?

Heb jij dan kennis van een echte grenscorrectie in dat gebied, die nu 
niet op de kaart staat? In dat geval zou je correct handelen door hem te 
corrigeren, maar anders kan de huidige 'rare' grens net zo goed de 
juiste zijn.

-- 
Lennard

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Vier onwillige route relaties op openfietskaart, hulp gevraagd

2008-12-01 Thread Michiel Zandbelt


Freek wrote On 01-12-08 21:44:

On Monday 01 December 2008, Michiel Zandbelt wrote:
  

Nu zijn er inmiddels een viertal routes die hardnekkig weigeren
gerenderd te worden en dus ook niet verschijnen op de kaarten.

Ik heb ze bij herhaling nagekeken en opnieuw getagd, kan geen fout
ontdekken, maar toch krijg ik ze niet op de kaart terwijl alle andere
routes er keurig opstaan.



De tiles van openfietskaart.nl worden maar eens in de paar dagen opnieuw 
gerendered. Aan de datum van wijziging te zien zou ik ze morgen of hooguit 
overmorgen op de kaart verwachten.
  


Dat weet ik, ik ben er ook al langer mee aan het sleutelen maar dat zie 
je niet bij alle relations in de history omdat ik er een aantal na een 
week of wtee a drie zonder rendering rucksichtlos verwijderd heb 
inmiddels en er geheel nieuwe voor in de plaats heb aangemaakt..


Het gekke is dat de routes die ik het meest recent heb toegevoegd 
(tussen Grave en Ravenstein) al wel gerenderd zijn, misschien net een 
andere tile, maar toch.


Hopelijk komen ze bij de volgende rendering alsnog in beeld ( na 
woensdag meestal),maar ben er nog niet van overtuigd, gezien het 
contrast met al die andere routes die probleemloos en vrij vlot op de 
kaart verschenen. Anyway deze week nieuwe ronde nieuwe kansen, ik wacht 
even af, geduld is en blijft een schone zaak.

)

Michiel


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Vier onwillige route relaties op openfietskaart, hulp gevraagd

2008-12-01 Thread Gert Gremmen

Verder moet je soms tot twee dagen na een update van de serverdata
wachten tot de tiles 48h oud zijn. Hoe vaker je kijkt, lijkt het wel,
hoe langer het duurt.

Gert
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Freek
Verzonden: maandag 1 december 2008 21:45
Aan: talk-nl@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Vier onwillige route relaties op
openfietskaart,hulp gevraagd

On Monday 01 December 2008, Michiel Zandbelt wrote:
 Nu zijn er inmiddels een viertal routes die hardnekkig weigeren
 gerenderd te worden en dus ook niet verschijnen op de kaarten.

 Ik heb ze bij herhaling nagekeken en opnieuw getagd, kan geen fout
 ontdekken, maar toch krijg ik ze niet op de kaart terwijl alle andere
 routes er keurig opstaan.

De tiles van openfietskaart.nl worden maar eens in de paar dagen opnieuw

gerendered. Aan de datum van wijziging te zien zou ik ze morgen of
hooguit 
overmorgen op de kaart verwachten.

opencyclemap.org update trouwens nog minder vaak: eens per week op
donderdag 
of vrijdag. De snelste updates kan je bij [EMAIL PROTECTED] vinden (bijv. 
informationfreeway.org), vaak binnen een paar uur, maar die laat geen 
fietsroutes zien.

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Vier onwillige route relaties op openfietskaart, hulp gevraagd

2008-12-01 Thread Freek

On Monday 01 December 2008, Michiel Zandbelt wrote:
 Freek wrote On 01-12-08 21:44:
  On Monday 01 December 2008, Michiel Zandbelt wrote:
  Nu zijn er inmiddels een viertal routes die hardnekkig weigeren
  gerenderd te worden en dus ook niet verschijnen op de kaarten.
 
  Ik heb ze bij herhaling nagekeken en opnieuw getagd, kan geen fout
  ontdekken, maar toch krijg ik ze niet op de kaart terwijl alle andere
  routes er keurig opstaan.
 
  De tiles van openfietskaart.nl worden maar eens in de paar dagen opnieuw
  gerendered. Aan de datum van wijziging te zien zou ik ze morgen of
  hooguit overmorgen op de kaart verwachten.

 Dat weet ik, ik ben er ook al langer mee aan het sleutelen maar dat zie
 je niet bij alle relations in de history omdat ik er een aantal na een
 week of wtee a drie zonder rendering rucksichtlos verwijderd heb
 inmiddels en er geheel nieuwe voor in de plaats heb aangemaakt..

 Het gekke is dat de routes die ik het meest recent heb toegevoegd
 (tussen Grave en Ravenstein) al wel gerenderd zijn, misschien net een
 andere tile, maar toch.

 Hopelijk komen ze bij de volgende rendering alsnog in beeld ( na
 woensdag meestal),maar ben er nog niet van overtuigd, gezien het
 contrast met al die andere routes die probleemloos en vrij vlot op de
 kaart verschenen. Anyway deze week nieuwe ronde nieuwe kansen, ik wacht
 even af, geduld is en blijft een schone zaak.
 )

Ja, een beetje vreemd, ze lijken mij in ieder geval correct getagd. Inderdaad 
maar even afwachten.

-- 
Freek

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Vier onwillige route relaties op openfietskaart, hulp gevraagd

2008-12-01 Thread Michiel Zandbelt

Freek wrote On 01-12-08 21:56:
 Ja, een beetje vreemd, ze lijken mij in ieder geval correct getagd. 
 Inderdaad
 maar even afwachten.
   

Ze zijn tot nu toe overigens altijd ook bij het opnieuw downlaoden van 
het betreffende gebeid van de OSM servers in Merkaartor weer keurig als 
relations in beeld gekomen (in Merkaartor, maar dus niet in OSM online).

Maar wie weet is aan het einde van deze week dit alles al weer 
achterhaald en opgelost, we'll see.


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] End-of-year party

2008-12-01 Thread Zoran Kovacevic

ik zou zeggen go-go-go en post meteen ff op www.openstreetmap.nl

cu

On 1 dec 2008, at 12:07, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:

 Joepie!

 Ik ben even langs het door mij voorgestelde cafe gelopen (De Vergulde
 Gaper) en we kunnen daar gewoon een tafel reserveren.
 Zal ik dat even regelen?

 Het cafe is op 5 minuten lopen vanaf Amsterdam Centraal Station.
 De locatie op onze kaart klopt niet helemaal dus die heb ik  
 aangepast...

 Het is op de hoek van de Prinsenstraat en Prinsengracht.

 Groet,
 Floris

 OSM-vrienden,

 Het heeft even wat op zich laten wachten, maar heb nu toch even de  
 datum
 geprikt voor onze end-of-year party.

 Het is zondag de 14e december geworden. Locatie: Amsterdam.
 Mocht je je nog niet hebben opgegeven, schroom niet en wees welkom.

 Houdt de wiki in de gaten voor de laatste ontwikkelingen:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Netherlands_Mapping_Parties_2008#OSM_end-of-year_party_-_Amsterdam

 Gr,
 Henk Hoff

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Lambert Carsten

On Monday 01 December 2008 18:44:41 you wrote:
 Lambert Carsten schreef:
  Ik kwam een raar verloop tegen van de gemeente grens in Amsterdam:
 
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.33308lon=4.92431zoom=16

 Wat is daar vreemd aan?

Misschien is deze link iets beter voor josm:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?mlat=52.33358488334535mlon=4.919190258055218zoom=16

Het gaat in de eerste plaats om dat industrie terrein bij ('boven') de Hemweg. 
Gemeente grenzen lopen toch niet dwars (schuin zelfs) door gebouwen heen?
Het is wel een tijd geleden, maar een stuk of 6 gemeentegrens borden heb ik 
toch echt niet over het hoofd gezien. Eén weet ik er te staan en die staat in 
de bocht van de Spaklerweg, als het goed is middin in deze link:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.333732lon=4.922701zoom=18layers=B000FTF

Vermoedelijk loopt de grens daar langs (ten zuiden van) de Hemweg.

Ondanks de rechte lijn is de grens die door dat Wenckelbach gebied gaat ook 
verdacht.

Maar goed ik vroeg mij af of iemand wist hoe of waar ik zo'n grens kan 
verifiëren zonder meteen te gaan 'wobben'.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Lambert

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Skywave

Grenzen lopen wel degelijk door gebouwen heen, teminste ik heb verhalen
gehoord van zowel landsgrenzen als provinciegrenzen (huiskamer in
Gelderland, keuken in Brabant enz.). De grenzen zijn rechstreeks uit de AND
data. Ik heb net even op viamichelin gekeken (enige die ik ken met
gemeentegrenzen) en die komt best overeen. Maar indien je het beter weet zou
je het moeten verbeteren. Maar de bebouwde kom borden zijn anders dan dan
gemeentegrenzen, kan ik je wel vertellen.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Lambert Carsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Monday 01 December 2008 18:44:41 you wrote:
Lambert Carsten schreef:
Ik kwam een raar verloop tegen van de gemeente grens in Amsterdam:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.33308lon=4.92431zoom=16

Wat is daar vreemd aan?

Misschien is deze link iets beter voor josm:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?mlat=52.33358488334535mlon=4.919190258055218zoom=16

Het gaat in de eerste plaats om dat industrie terrein bij ('boven') de
Hemweg.
Gemeente grenzen lopen toch niet dwars (schuin zelfs) door gebouwen heen?
Het is wel een tijd geleden, maar een stuk of 6 gemeentegrens borden heb ik
toch echt niet over het hoofd gezien. Eén weet ik er te staan en die staat
in
de bocht van de Spaklerweg, als het goed is middin in deze link:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.333732lon=4.922701zoom=18layers=B000FTF

Vermoedelijk loopt de grens daar langs (ten zuiden van) de Hemweg.

Ondanks de rechte lijn is de grens die door dat Wenckelbach gebied gaat ook
verdacht.

Maar goed ik vroeg mij af of iemand wist hoe of waar ik zo'n grens kan
verifiëren zonder meteen te gaan 'wobben'.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Lambert

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Stefan de Konink

Skywave wrote:
 Grenzen lopen wel degelijk door gebouwen heen, teminste ik heb verhalen 
 gehoord van zowel landsgrenzen als provinciegrenzen (huiskamer in 
 Gelderland, keuken in Brabant enz.). De grenzen zijn rechstreeks uit de 
 AND data. Ik heb net even op viamichelin gekeken (enige die ik ken met 
 gemeentegrenzen) en die komt best overeen. Maar indien je het beter weet 
 zou je het moeten verbeteren. Maar de bebouwde kom borden zijn anders 
 dan dan gemeentegrenzen, kan ik je wel vertellen.

Kadastrale grenzen lopen *niet* door gebouwen heen. Dus een voordeur en 
de rest van een woning liggen in 1 land/provincie.


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Cartinus

On Tuesday 02 December 2008 00:40:33 Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Kadastrale grenzen lopen *niet* door gebouwen heen. Dus een voordeur en
 de rest van een woning liggen in 1 land/provincie.

Da's niet waar. Er staan in Baarle-Nassau/Hertog genoeg huizen waar de 
landsgrens dwars doorheen loopt. Sommige zijn oud, andere zijn vrij nieuw. 
Het meest recent gebouwde geval (voor zover ik weet) staat in een 
nieuwbouwwijk uit de jaren zeventig.


On Tuesday 02 December 2008 00:40:13 Lambert Carsten wrote:
  Lekker handig met belastingen en andere
 regelingen (bouwbesluit enz)!

Je betaalt belasting daar waar je voordeur zit.

-- 
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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[OSM-talk-nl] Toeristische / culturele kaart

2008-12-01 Thread Gert Gremmen

Het is een beetje stil in OSM-NL, dus ik dacht laten

we er eens wat nieuwe initiatieven ontplooien.

 

Als een nieuw project, 

wil ik voorstellen voor deze winter:

 

Een toeristische kaart

 

 

waarop afhankelijk van de insteek van de bezoeker

 

cultureel

amusement

logies

parkeren

kamperen

musea

tentoonstellingscomplexen

winkelgebieden

 

duidelijk aangegeven worden inclusief de naam

en een link naar wikipedia.

Omgekeerd denk ik dat Wikipedia dynamisch

naar onze touristische kaart zal kunnen linken.

 

Wie voelt er wat voor om daaraan te beginnen?

 

We kunnen beginnen met  inventarisaties

 

-  plaatsen/steden met typisch touristische waarde

(Amsterdam, leiden , Delft, Gouda, etc )

-  streken met touristische waarden

(achterhoek, de peel, hoge veluwe)

-  objecten met toeristische waarde

(zaansche schans , efteling, afsluitdijk, keukenhof, maesland kering, 
rotterdamsche haven, rondvaarten)

-  Musea (categorieën nodig)

(openluchtmuseum, rijksmuseum)

-  winkelgebieden

(kalverstraat, koopgoot, hoog catharijne)

-  hotels

-  bioscopen

-  theaters

-  tentoonstellingscomplexen

(rai gebouw, lakenhal etc)

-  campings

-  WC's in steden (haha, wel praktisch, heeft iemand een icoon voor de 
krul)

-  standbeelden (bartje , dokwerker, maar dat kan heel ver gaan)

 

Jullie hebben vast nog wel aanvullingen.

 

Nadat we een flinke lijst hebben gegenereerd, moeten deze

worden gestuctureerd en een  tagging schema opgesteld.

Vervolgens mappen en renderen.

 

Als we een beetje aanpakken, kunnen we in mei

een fantastisch leuk project laten zien.

 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen



 
ce-test, qualified testing bv

 

 

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] bounderies

2008-12-01 Thread Lennard

Cartinus wrote:
 On Tuesday 02 December 2008 00:40:33 Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Kadastrale grenzen lopen *niet* door gebouwen heen. Dus een voordeur en
 de rest van een woning liggen in 1 land/provincie.
 
 Da's niet waar. Er staan in Baarle-Nassau/Hertog genoeg huizen waar de 
 landsgrens dwars doorheen loopt. Sommige zijn oud, andere zijn vrij nieuw. 
 Het meest recent gebouwde geval (voor zover ik weet) staat in een 
 nieuwbouwwijk uit de jaren zeventig.

Uniek aan het project is dat de grens dwars door het gemeentehuis 
loopt. Een klein stukje van het gebouw ligt op Nederlands grondgebied. 
De gemeente Baarle-Hertog heeft dus niet alleen bij de provincie 
Antwerpen, maar ook bij de gemeente Baarle-Nassau een bouwvergunning 
moeten aanvragen. De grensaanduiding zal zowel aan de buitenzijde als in 
het interieur zichtbaar gemaakt worden met verlichting. De grens zal 
door de raadzaal / trouwzaal en de kantoren van de politie en het OCMW 
lopen.

De hoofdaannemer zal  de bouw normaliter in juli 2009 kunnen opleveren. 
De gemeente Baarle-Hertog verwacht eind 2009 te kunnen verhuizen.

Bron:
http://www.baarle-hertog.be/nieuwsdetail/1563/default.aspx?_vs=0_Nid=2653

Recent genoeg, Cartinus? :-)

Nu is Baarle wel een buitenbeentje, wat dat betreft. En voor Lambert: 
heb je er al eens over nagedacht om de afdeling Geo en 
Vastgoedinformatie (http://www.gvi.amsterdam.nl/) van de Gemeente 
Amsterdam te bellen? Wellicht de meest directe bron om meer informatie 
te krijgen.

Er is ook een website die het doel heeft om gemeentelijke en provinciale 
herindelingen bij te houden: http://home.planet.nl/~pagklein/gemhis.html

http://home.planet.nl/~pagklein/gemhis.html#pb199962

Provinciale bladen 62 (1999) en 57 (2000) – besluit Gedeputeerde Staten 
14-12-1999: De Noordhollandse gemeenten Amsterdam en Diemen hebben 
grondgebied met elkaar verruild.

http://home.planet.nl/~pagklein/gemhis.html#pb2005106

Provinciaal Blad 106 (2005) Een grenswijziging tussen de gehandhaafde 
Noordhollandse gemeente Amsterdam en de gehandhaafde Noordhollandse 
gemeente Ouder-Amstel heeft plaatsgevonden. De grens is hierbij 
logischer gelegd langs wegen en metrolijnen en doorsnijdt niet langer 
gebouwen. Bij deze grenswijziging zijn 9 inwoners en 0,43 km2 land 
overgegaan van Ouder-Amstel naar Amsterdam en 0,07 km2 land van 
Amsterdam naar Ouder-Amstel.

Wat je dus ook gelijk een bron geeft. Die bladen zou je op kunnen vragen 
bij de provincie of Staten.

http://www.vng.nl/documenten/extranet/bjz/bb/herindelingovz2006.pdf 
geeft deze bladen ook op.

-- 
Lennard


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Re: [talk-au] Dual Named Roads