date:20100102

Richard,

 In my view, what matters is someone's _overall_ contribution to OSM, not 
 their unquestioning adherence to the doctrine of free.

I am not talking about classifying *people* into properly open and 
proprietary - I wanted to classify *projects*.

The author of, say, openmtbmap can be the nicest guy  major OSM 
contributor; if openmtbmap is - for whatever valid reason - not open in 
the sense of letting everyone else look into and use openmtbmap, then we 
should very clearly make this distinction, rather than act as if 
openmtbmap were as open as OpenStreetMap itself.

The same author may have other projects which are properly open and 
which we would of course praise as such.

 Faced with one person who makes an enormous contribution to OSM, but 
 chooses to keep one aspect of their contributions closed-source; and 
 another whose main contribution is a lot of wiki voting, but has sent 
 two preset patches, assiduously annotated with some inordinate licence 
 preamble in capital letters - well, I couldn't criticise the former or 
 deny them any respect. And applying pressure rather smacks of that 
 Proper attribution lynch mob.

I think it is really important to not take this to the personal level. 
Just because user X does something propietary with OSM data doesn't mean 
that he is less of a nice guy. However (on the other hand) just because 
he is a nice guy doesn't mean that something proprietary he produces 
should be treated as if it was part of the family.

I'm doing business with OSM and I'm not ashamed to say that some things 
I do are proprietary. Others are open. I don't expect my proprietary 
stuff to feature prominently on the OSM web pages. I would not feel 
ostracised if OSM makes the distinction, saying about some these are 
cool projects that share the OSM spirit of openness and we fully embrace 
 recommend them and about others these are other projects/services 
using OSM data but they are non-free.

 Hey, I managed a whole post about Not-properly-Open without mentioning 
 the GPL. ...oh crap.

Well, of course in my mind I'm not making the distinction between a) 
free/open and b) proprietary, but between a**) absolutely free and not 
requiring to sell your soul to RMS, a) free/open if you sell your soul, 
b) proprietary. But I felt that was too much to recommend in one go.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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[OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010-01-02 Thread Pieren

Look here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.6238lon=7.8259zoom=14layers=B000FTF

Mapnik is showing a Germany label in Strasbourg which is, as far as
I know, still part of France ;-)

It's not a node, so my guess is that label is coming from a huge
polygon but, stilll, I don't know what can be a polygon named
Germany and its centre is so far in the west...

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010/1/2 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
 Look here:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.6238lon=7.8259zoom=14layers=B000FTF

 Mapnik is showing a Germany label in Strasbourg which is, as far as
 I know, still part of France ;-)

 It's not a node, so my guess is that label is coming from a huge
 polygon but, stilll, I don't know what can be a polygon named
 Germany and its centre is so far in the west...

Does anyone know of a good reason for the names of polygons to render?

Most of the time, there is a place node for where things should
render, otherwise you get the names of postcodes and names rendering
in the middle of no where.

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[OSM-talk] mapnik style for a cycle map

2010-01-02 Thread arno

Hi,
I'm trying to make a custom mapnik rendering of my local area. This rendering 
would be a intended for cycle commuting. Ideally, I'd like something like 
opencyclemap with slight modifications.

But opencyclemap style seems to be not publicly available[1]. So, I was 
wondering if someone had a public osm.xml file intended for cycling. That 
would probably be more easy to change than mapnik default rendering style.

regards,
arno

[1]: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-October/043925.html


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[OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

Traditionally, mapping streets in OSM has relied on physically visiting the
streets to get a GPS trace, and noting the names of streets while you're at
it. But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
trace from (I'm thinking of nearmap, in australia), you don't have to visit
the street to get the shape.

But...where do you get the street name from? I think there's a general
policy that you can't copy it off other maps...but why, exactly? How can a
piece of information like the name of the street be copyright? Whose
copyright law are we dealing with, anyway?

Also, what if you look up 3 other maps, and they all show the same name, is
it ok to copy then?

Thanks,
Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010-01-02 Thread Florian Lohoff

On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 09:37:15PM +1000, John Smith wrote:
 2010/1/2 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
  Look here:
 
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.6238lon=7.8259zoom=14layers=B000FTF
 
  Mapnik is showing a Germany label in Strasbourg which is, as far as
  I know, still part of France ;-)
 
  It's not a node, so my guess is that label is coming from a huge
  polygon but, stilll, I don't know what can be a polygon named
  Germany and its centre is so far in the west...
 
 Does anyone know of a good reason for the names of polygons to render?
 
 Most of the time, there is a place node for where things should
 render, otherwise you get the names of postcodes and names rendering
 in the middle of no where.

Isnt it the natural thing to do? Lakes have names, forrests sometimes
have and at least in Germany industrial areas have usually names which
should be shown on the map.

Flo
-- 
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Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen.
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010/1/2 Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de:
 Isnt it the natural thing to do? Lakes have names, forrests sometimes
 have and at least in Germany industrial areas have usually names which
 should be shown on the map.

Hmmm perhaps I should have been a little clearer, I'm thinking of
administrative boundaries, in particular boundary relations, and there
is lots of area names rendering in the middle of no where or duplicate
names close to each other because there is a boundary + a place node,
and well yea, postcode names rendering in the middle of no where:

http://osm.org/go/ueR62iP6
http://osm.org/go/ueR_vjAf

etc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

2010/1/2 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
 Traditionally, mapping streets in OSM has relied on physically visiting the
 streets to get a GPS trace, and noting the names of streets while you're at
 it. But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
 trace from (I'm thinking of nearmap, in australia), you don't have to visit
 the street to get the shape.

And before nearmap people were armchair mapping with Yahoo, this isn't
a new issue.

 But...where do you get the street name from? I think there's a general
 policy that you can't copy it off other maps...but why, exactly? How can a
 piece of information like the name of the street be copyright? Whose
 copyright law are we dealing with, anyway?

Copyright issues aside, how do you know the commercial map is accurate?

 Also, what if you look up 3 other maps, and they all show the same name, is
 it ok to copy then?

That's assuming they don't all come from the same source, most
commercial information is usually sourced in Australia from
mapds.com.au

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010-01-02 Thread Lennard

John Smith wrote:

 It's not a node, so my guess is that label is coming from a huge
 polygon but, stilll, I don't know what can be a polygon named
 Germany and its centre is so far in the west...

There is an issue that causes labels to (far) outside the polygons, and 
that is a multipolygon with multiple outer rings. A fix has been applied 
to osm2pgsql recently, supposedly fixing this, but until the planet has 
been fully reloaded, lots of old-style objects will still be in the 
database. Still, this issue always caused the labels to outside and to 
the _east_ of the objects, and this is to the west. This particular case 
may have another cause.

 Does anyone know of a good reason for the names of polygons to render?

It makes all kinds of otherwise unhandled polygons* show up with a 
label. This includes houses, forests, marinas, quarries, etc. You name 
it: if it's a closed area with a name label, it renders. Mind you, I'm 
very much against doing this in the mapnik stylesheet, because it 
actually takes control away from us. You cannot suppress a label for 
things which really shouldn't render. The same holds true for the 
default way to render labels for every way with a name key.

I do understand, however, that requiring explicit handling to label a 
large swath of polygonic* features would require an extensive section in 
the mapnik stylesheet, and some effort to compile and decide which to 
render. Which is why it hasn't been done yet, although with the current 
modularized approach, at least it won't be a total maintenance nightmare 
anymore.

Perhaps now is the time to get around to actually fixing this, accepting 
that some labels you've come to expect to be rendered will suddenly be 
absent? Until someone notices, creates an enhancement ticket, and we 
create an explicit rule, of course.

* The same applies for ways, causing untold floating names to appear 
where there is no supporting rendered feature.

 Most of the time, there is a place node for where things should

Most of the time, there really isn't.

 render, otherwise you get the names of postcodes and names rendering
 in the middle of no where.

Indeed, which is currently the case.


-- 
Lennard

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Re: [OSM-talk] mapnik style for a cycle map

2010-01-02 Thread Lennard

arno wrote:

 But opencyclemap style seems to be not publicly available[1]. So, I was 
 wondering if someone had a public osm.xml file intended for cycling. That 
 would probably be more easy to change than mapnik default rendering style.

The stylesheets for the dutch cycling and walking overlays are available:

http://git.openstreet.nl/index.cgi/stylesheets.git/tree/

Look for the ones with 'fiets' (cycle) and 'wandel' (walking) in the 
names. See what they look like on http://www.openfietskaart.nl/ and 
http://www.openwandelkaart.nl/ respectively.

Being overlays, they handle specific route rendering, and do not result 
in the all-in-one tiles that OCM produces, but you're welcome to have a 
look at them, and see what we've done.

-- 
Lennard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

2010-01-02 Thread Claus Hindsgaul

2010/1/2 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk


 Provided that this does not result in REMOVING ways that are mapped - or
 prevent
 adding the REAL fine detail of ways that do not actually physically form
 part of
 the 'accompanying' road. This sort of 'shorthand' should not replace
 mapping the
 real situation on the ground ESPECIALLY where the cycleway ( or
 sidewalk/footpath ) is not physically part of the 'accompanying' road.

 NOTHING should dictate that removing physical data is the 'correct' way of
 mapping!


I don't think anyone here wants to erase good information from the map. But
unless we are prepared to reconsider implementations, OSM is bound to lack
evolution and be increasingly inconsistent as we gain more experience and
learn from each other.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that you want to impose a regime,
where tags can be altered or (in the case of cycleways) can be converted to
separate ways - but that it is NEVER an improvement to delete a separate way
(physical data) and replace it by shorthand cycleway-tags.

If so, I have to disagree. In many cases separate ways or nodes indeed adds
information and refine the digital map description. But at least with cycle
tracks aligned with roads, I think it often really REMOVES more information
than it adds, at least for routing software. These are examples of
information that you throw away if you separate a closely coupled cycleway
from its road:

   - There is no way for routing software to deduct that you can cross the
   road to access the opposite track or the road itself e.g. to make a U-turn,
   until you reach a junction.
   - The concept of being at the same road as the cars is lost:
  - routing says something like turn left at unnamed cycleway one meter
  after Oxford Rd
  - junction count will be screwed. Information such as turn right at
  the 3rd junction can not be deducted from the map data as extra
  highway=cycleway and possibly future sidewalk-ways intoxicate it.
  - traffic light count has the same problem
  - bicycle routing priority may not benefit from information from the
  car way such as maxspeed, access or traffic density
  - bridge and tunnel rendering can not avoid to show several separate
  bridges/tunnels for the same road due to missing information

This is just to illustrate that it does not always lead to better map data
to choose the most labour intensive and complex representation.
For most closely coupled bicycle tracks/lanes I myself would clearly prefer
the cycleway=track/lane representation to separate ways EVEN if it took
more time and effort to do! (My post from yesterday lists the obvious
exceptions). It is not just a shorthand as you seem to imply.

I will not advocate an invasive general mass conversion, but trust that
mappers will continue to evaluate improve the implementation of their future
and former contributions based on insights from the community.
We should not dictate removing existing ways, but neither should we forbid
improving the representation where applicable, even if this involves
conversion of existing separate cycleways to cycleway-tags.

-- 
-- 
Civilingeniør ph.d. Claus Hindsgaul
Edvard Thomsens Vej 19, 5. th
DK-2300 KBH S
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010-01-02 Thread Florian Lohoff

On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 10:14:41PM +1000, John Smith wrote:
 2010/1/2 Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de:
  Isnt it the natural thing to do? Lakes have names, forrests sometimes
  have and at least in Germany industrial areas have usually names which
  should be shown on the map.
 
 Hmmm perhaps I should have been a little clearer, I'm thinking of
 administrative boundaries, in particular boundary relations, and there
 is lots of area names rendering in the middle of no where or duplicate
 names close to each other because there is a boundary + a place node,
 and well yea, postcode names rendering in the middle of no where:
 
 http://osm.org/go/ueR62iP6
 http://osm.org/go/ueR_vjAf

Doesnt make sense - its just matter of fixing the mapnik config. I 
think currently it renders a name for all polygons. This should
probably be limited to certain types.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen.
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

2010-01-02 Thread Shaun McDonald


On 2 Jan 2010, at 11:49, Steve Bennett wrote:

 Traditionally, mapping streets in OSM has relied on physically visiting the 
 streets to get a GPS trace, and noting the names of streets while you're at 
 it. But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can 
 trace from (I'm thinking of nearmap, in australia), you don't have to visit 
 the street to get the shape.
 
 But...where do you get the street name from? I think there's a general policy 
 that you can't copy it off other maps...but why, exactly? How can a piece of 
 information like the name of the street be copyright? Whose copyright law are 
 we dealing with, anyway?

You still need to go and visit the streets. With the London mapping parties 
last year after most of London was traced from the Yahoo imagery, what was 
found was:
* Many places the imagery was out of date, and the road layout had changed.
* There were lots of POIs on the ground that still needed to be collected due 
to be being able to be seen from above.
* Tree cover, overhanging or tall buildings obscured some things that needed to 
be captured, thus needing the on the ground survey.

 
 Also, what if you look up 3 other maps, and they all show the same name, is 
 it ok to copy then?

That copying, they may have all got it from the same wrong source, or it may 
have changed since they last surveyed.

Shaun

 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Shaun McDonald
sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.ukwrote:

 You still need to go and visit the streets. With the London mapping parties
 last year after most of London was traced from the Yahoo imagery, what was
 found was:
 * Many places the imagery was out of date, and the road layout had changed.


The nearmap images are very fresh - a few months at worst.


 * There were lots of POIs on the ground that still needed to be collected
 due to be being able to be seen from above.


Sure, but that's a whole separate piece of work. First priority is surely to
get streets mapped, then their names, then other POIs...


 * Tree cover, overhanging or tall buildings obscured some things that
 needed to be captured, thus needing the on the ground survey.


Yep, these are additional benefits to visiting the street. But if I was
going to be doing ground surveys, there are lots of places I'd rather visit
than these new outer suburban housing developments.



 That copying, they may have all got it from the same wrong source, or it
 may have changed since they last surveyed.



But from a copyright point of view, is it acceptable? (Let's not do the
what would you do if you had infinite time debate again. I don't have
infinite time. Can I copy the street names off Google Maps/Melway/Yahoo/...
or not?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

2010/1/2 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk:
 * Many places the imagery was out of date, and the road layout had changed.

In this case, Nearmap, is doing monthly fly overs of several
Australian cities, and they have new imagery online within about 2
weeks of taking it...

But yea, new yahoo imagery that appeared online mid last year was at
a guess up to 3 years out of date, it was missing a few new
motorways...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?


Steve Bennett wrote:
 But...where do you get the street name from? I think there's a 
 general policy that you can't copy it off other maps...but why, 
 exactly? How can a piece of information like the name of the 
 street be copyright?

Quick answer as requested:

1. Your jurisdiction may give databases of facts protection over and above
the facts themselves. Simplifying hugely, the EU does, the US doesn't.
http://www.iusmentis.com/databases/ for more.

2. The Terms of Use for Google Maps (or whatever) may forbid it through
contract.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://old.nabble.com/Sourcing-street-names---what%27s-the-policy%2C-and-why--tp26992382p26993048.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

Liz wrote:
 On Sat, 2 Jan 2010, Michael Hufer wrote:
   
 On the Oregon 550(t) you will find the satellite almanac-screen if you
  touch  the five-bars satellite reception indicator.

 
 Thanks, will try it.
 Later I might read the instructions.

   
I wouldn't bother, they're not much cop :-(


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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

2010-01-02 Thread Lester Caine

Steve
 NOTHING should dictate that removing physical data is the 'correct'
 way of mapping!
 
 That's rather an extreme point of view. No professionally produced maps 
 contain everything. Nor do the databases from which they are derived. 
 Everything is not achievable, so let's not aim for it. Instead, let's 
 work out what we value most of all, set some priorities, and focus our 
 efforts accordingly.

Eventually it would be nice to be able to correctly use areas for every feature 
that actually covers an area. Rivers, parks and the like already are but can 
also be accessed as a single 'reference' at a higher level. There is no real 
dispute BETWEEN A and B, but it must be possible to view the data either at the 
B level ... a connection between X and Y which you can cycle down ... and the A 
level where the widths are displayed accurately so one can see if one can cycle 
2 or more abreast. Complex tags can be added to 'B' to provide the width, 
distance for some other way and the like, but that is no substitute for 
actually 
mapping the information on the ground. So really all that is required a 
relation 
between the A and B views of the world?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Dave F. wrote:
 John Smith wrote:
   
 2010/1/2 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com:
   
 
 I think it's high time this was done. IMO, OCM should be removed from
 the main map options asked persuasively to rename themselves as they're
 not really open, are they?
 
   
 What do you suggest they rename to?

 FreeCycleMap? :)
 
 Yeah, why not?
   
Is there a wiki page that lists all the sites that use OSM data. I think 
OCM should be put there.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Just because user X does something propietary with OSM data doesn't mean
 that he is less of a nice guy. However (on the other hand) just because
 he is a nice guy doesn't mean that something proprietary he produces
 should be treated as if it was part of the family.

But what's the family?

People have written open-source OSM apps for closed platforms (Windows, 
OS X) and runtimes (Flash Player and formerly Java). Others spend time 
reverse-engineering closed formats (.img) for closed hardware (Garmin). 
I suspect the site JS has some hacks to make it render properly on (the 
closed-source) Internet Explorer. You could argue, and there are some 
reading this list who do, that these are therefore non-free and 
shouldn't be included in the OSM family.

OSM's raison-d'etre is free geodata. Nothing else. If we start getting 
doctrinal about how we think people should interact with the data, I 
think OSM, as a project, becomes more insular and less viable.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

Steve Bennett wrote:
 I've got a trace from today which is significantly out of sync with a 
 path I traced from Nearmap:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-37.880138lon=145.193417zoom=19gpx=594988
  
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-37.880138lon=145.193417zoom=19gpx=594988

 The trace looks like I was wandering through the grassy paddock, but I 
 was actually following exactly that northern most highway=path in 
 the bush. So it looks like the trace is incorrectly recorded something 
 like 50m north of where I actually was. Now, since the discrepancy 
 seems to go away on that track a bit further east (later 
 chronologically), presumably the explanation is the GPS data is 
 faulty. Is this common? I'm new to GPSing, so I'm just surprised. It's 
 a Garmin Oregon 550. Is there anything I can do to reduce, or at least 
 detect, such errors?

 Steve
There are some good points in the previous messages, but I think there's 
an overall strategy  that's:

Don't be a slave to your GPS.

Be aware of your surroundings - Are you in thick undergrowth? Are you 
traveling at the bottom of a steep cliff?

As has been said, keep an eye on the accuracy reading (except if you're 
driving of course!)
If you are in an area where reception is poor make a note of it, either 
with a waypoint or, as I do, with old fashion paper  pencil.

I take photographs to help me remember what my route looked like. I find 
it extremely useful for recalling road signs  street names.

If your trace goes straight across a field, but you know you walked 
around the edge of it, mark it as you walked it, taking a best guess as 
to where you went. Then tag it with a note or Fixme explaining that it 
needs updating.

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

Craig Wallace wrote:
 But I'd still agree with Shaun - a single GPS trace is not really 
 accurate enough for adding ways to OSM IMO.
Whilst I agree - more the merrier, just because you have only one trace 
it's not a valid reason not to upload it.

If you feel it's an accurate representation,  good. If not, add a note 
or Fixme tagged explaining that it needs retracing to get a more 
accurate average.

IMO, if your policy was followed, OSM would be a fraction of it's size  
poorer for it.

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

2010-01-02 Thread Lester Caine

Claus Hindsgaul wrote:
 Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that you want to impose a regime, 
 where tags can be altered or (in the case of cycleways) can be converted 
 to separate ways - but that it is NEVER an improvement to delete a 
 separate way (physical data) and replace it by shorthand cycleway-tags.
 
 If so, I have to disagree. In many cases separate ways or nodes indeed 
 adds information and refine the digital map description. But at least 
 with cycle tracks aligned with roads, I think it often really REMOVES 
 more information than it adds, at least for routing software. These are 
 examples of information that you throw away if you separate a closely 
 coupled cycleway from its road:
 
 * There is no way for routing software to deduct that you can cross
   the road to access the opposite track or the road itself e.g. to
   make a U-turn, until you reach a junction.
THAT depends on a number of factors. If the cycleway is isolated from the road 
by a grass verge, then the U-turn may require getting off and carrying the 
bike. 
While a pedestrian could simply walk across. Cycle and pedestrian routing DOES 
require more information than is currently provided by a single vehicle way.

 * The concept of being at the same road as the cars is lost:
   o routing says something like turn left at unnamed cycleway
 one meter after Oxford Rd
Currently in town pedestrian/cycle routing ASSUMES that the vehicle junctions 
are the same, which is often not the case. Directions can be just as wrong 
without providing separate ways. Adding ever more tags to describe details on 
routes which are NOT the same - although they may all be 'Uxbridge Road' - is 
simply wrong.

   o junction count will be screwed. Information such as turn
 right at the 3rd junction can not be deducted from the map
 data as extra highway=cycleway and possibly future
 sidewalk-ways intoxicate it.
One of the reasons *I* think that it is time 'highway' only referred to vehicle 
routes, and 'cycleway' and 'footway' were properly managed as separate ways? 
YES 
in some cases vehicle, cycle and foot traffic may well be on the same area of 
the earths surface, but where there are identified foot/cycle areas then these 
should be capable of being mapped, and then from that mapping data, lower zoom 
shorthand needs to understand the differences.

   o traffic light count has the same problem
? a junction with slips and cycle boxes must be correctly mapped  shorthand 
with two ways meeting with a 'traffic lights' tag is fine at the macro level, 
but then adding right/left turn slips and pedestrian/cycle islands need to be 
detailed.

   o bicycle routing priority may not benefit from information
 from the car way such as maxspeed, access or traffic density
Not sure what your point is here, but if in general there is a need to group 
elements together and apply tags at the higher level.

   o bridge and tunnel rendering can not avoid to show several
 separate bridges/tunnels for the same road due to missing
 information
Or may actually REQUIRE a separate bridge or tunnel where the pedestrian/cycle 
route is separated for safety. The BRIDGE/TUNNEL element needs to be mapped 
properly, rather than just as a renaming of some area of a way! Just because 
the 
'shorthand' way of adding 'bridge' often gets the detail wrong just reinforces 
the need to properly map details.

 I will not advocate an invasive general mass conversion, but trust that 
 mappers will continue to evaluate improve the implementation of their future 
 and former contributions based on insights from the community.
 We should not dictate removing existing ways, but neither should we forbid 
 improving the representation where applicable, even if this involves 
 conversion of existing separate cycleways to cycleway-tags.

I think this is the point.
Adding higher level tags that remove the need to map the lower level details 
simply creates more complexity when someone then comes to ADD the fine detail. 
The correct balance needs to be made, and having complex cycleway tags added to 
'third party' ways also needs to co-exist with actually mapping the cycleway. I 
don't see the creation of tags which then conflict with lower level mapping as 
an improvement. BUT if the tags relate to a shorthand FOR the lower level 
details and do not prevent actually adding the full detail, there is not a 
problem.

I was just concerned when it was being suggested that these REPLACE the lower 
level detail! They must not prevent the mapping of the actual fine detail.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird -

Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 6:49 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
 trace from (I'm thinking of nearmap, in australia), you don't have to visit
 the street to get the shape.

 But...where do you get the street name from?


*I* get it from my county property appraiser :).  YMMV.

I think there's a general policy that you can't copy it off other maps...but
 why, exactly? How can a piece of information like the name of the street be
 copyright? Whose copyright law are we dealing with, anyway?

 Also, what if you look up 3 other maps, and they all show the same name, is
 it ok to copy then?


As was pointed out, the 3 other maps may not be independent.  OTOH, if you
can get enough *independent* sources that you're certain you have the right
information, I say go for it, especially if you can find non-map-provider
sources.  However, there are others on here who adamantly disagree with
that, so don't publicize it.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

2010-01-02 Thread Ulf Lamping

Am 02.01.2010 14:57, schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
 Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Just because user X does something propietary with OSM data doesn't mean
 that he is less of a nice guy. However (on the other hand) just because
 he is a nice guy doesn't mean that something proprietary he produces
 should be treated as if it was part of the family.

 But what's the family?

 People have written open-source OSM apps for closed platforms (Windows,
 OS X) and runtimes (Flash Player and formerly Java). Others spend time
 reverse-engineering closed formats (.img) for closed hardware (Garmin).
 I suspect the site JS has some hacks to make it render properly on (the
 closed-source) Internet Explorer. You could argue, and there are some
 reading this list who do, that these are therefore non-free and
 shouldn't be included in the OSM family.

This argument is a bit pointless, as you cannot draw the line where to 
stop it. Your graphic card BIOS is probably closed source, your harddisk 
BIOS is probably closed source, ... ;-)

The question for me is simply: Does the project open it's *own* work or not?

 OSM's raison-d'etre is free geodata. Nothing else. If we start getting
 doctrinal about how we think people should interact with the data, I
 think OSM, as a project, becomes more insular and less viable.

For me it's not about how people should interact, but just to make it 
clear what's open (in the sense of open source) and what is not.

A good example:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin#Software

has a column License, which makes it pretty clear.


A bad example:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download

has no such column and it's a hassle to find out, which of the projects 
are open and which are not. Hint: a lot are not :-(

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

2010-01-02 Thread Joseph Reeves

 FreeCycleMap? :)
 Yeah, why not?

What's your definition of Free? Beer, speech or freedom? Following
your argument we'd have to call it
NoUpFrontFinancialCostToTheUser(ApartFromBandwidth)CycleMap

Or we channel the communities abilities into mapping rather than
arguing about this ;-)



2010/1/2 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com:
 John Smith wrote:
 2010/1/2 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com:

 I think it's high time this was done. IMO, OCM should be removed from
 the main map options asked persuasively to rename themselves as they're
 not really open, are they?


 What do you suggest they rename to?

 FreeCycleMap? :)
 Yeah, why not?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote:

 Quick answer as requested:

 1. Your jurisdiction may give databases of facts protection over and above
 the facts themselves. Simplifying hugely, the EU does, the US doesn't.
 http://www.iusmentis.com/databases/ for more.


I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
extraction of insubstantial parts.  If you're just using a map site
occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing.  If you're
systematically using it on road after road, that's another.

2. The Terms of Use for Google Maps (or whatever) may forbid it through
 contract.


Interestingly, the TOS for Google Maps forbids copying of any part of the
content, not just substantial parts.  But that can't possibly be meant to
be taken literally.  Is it really forbidden to write down driving directions
on a piece of paper, or to tell them to someone else over the phone?

Furthermore, if you're using more than one source, who's to say whether you
copied the data from Google and verified it with the other source, or if you
copied the data from the other source and verified it with Google?

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 But if I was going to be doing ground surveys, there are lots of places I'd
 rather visit than these new outer suburban housing developments.


Why aren't you mapping those places instead?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

Anthony wrote:
 I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
 extraction of insubstantial parts.  If you're just using a map site
 occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing.  If you're
 systematically using it on road after road, that's another.

Oh, sure. But then a lawyer could argue that one mapper doing it 
occasionally is insubstantial, but 100,000 OSM mappers all doing it 
occasionally is substantial.

And so on per your driving directions example. There are infinite shades 
of grey and the only way to resolve them is to have infinite test cases. 
But we don't want to get sued, so we just say: safest to steer clear 
entirely.

There may be a place for testing out the endurance of copyright law and 
Google's lawyers, but OSM isn't it. There is no point endangering the 
genuinely collected data for the sake of some lazy copying. ISTR SteveC 
suggesting that we establish a separate site called 
letsinfringethefrickinmap.com.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote:

 Anthony wrote:
  I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
  extraction of insubstantial parts.  If you're just using a map site
  occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing.  If you're
  systematically using it on road after road, that's another.

 Oh, sure. But then a lawyer could argue that one mapper doing it
 occasionally is insubstantial, but 100,000 OSM mappers all doing it
 occasionally is substantial.


Lawyers can argue anything they want, but if the 100,000 OSM mappers are
acting independently I highly doubt that argument will go very far.  But
what do I know, that law itself is just nutty.  Fortunately, it doesn't
apply to me.


 And so on per your driving directions example. There are infinite shades
 of grey and the only way to resolve them is to have infinite test cases.
 But we don't want to get sued, so we just say: safest to steer clear
 entirely.


Safest to steer clear entirely?  Absolutely.  Reasonable to do so?  I'd say
no, absolutely not.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote:

 There is no point endangering the
 genuinely collected data for the sake of some lazy copying.


So, when the license change occurs, OSM is going to delete everything and
start all over from scratch?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Joseph Reeves wrote:
 FreeCycleMap? :)
   
 Yeah, why not?
 

 What's your definition of Free? Beer, speech or freedom? Following
 your argument we'd have to call it
 NoUpFrontFinancialCostToTheUser(ApartFromBandwidth)CycleMap

 Or we channel the communities abilities into mapping rather than
 arguing about this ;-)

I don't see how free speech is relevant in this case so - free beer.

It can be called whatever they like - MyCycleMap perhaps. It doesn't 
have to declare itself in the name - explain what it's source is in an 
'About...' dialog box along with an explanation about what it's keeping 
hidden.

But, remove it from the main page where it appears comparable with OSM 
in the open sense, which it clearly isn't.

My abilities have spent much time mapping over the previous week so I'm 
quite happy now, pointing out things that I think are out of proportion.

Cheers
Dave F.

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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

2010-01-02 Thread Nop



Hi!

Am 02.01.2010 00:23, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 We cannot, and do not want to, trademark the words open, free and
 the like, but I think we could be a little bit more assertive about whom
 we consider to be a kindred spirit and who is doing his own thing, and
 apply the tiniest amount of pressure for people to upgrade from (b) to (a).

 I think many of us will be surprised how many cool OSM projects
 actually fall into the (b) category.

Before we talk about putting projects in categories - this would assume
that there is an agreement on what those terms mean and what is the
right direction to move into. But as far as I got it from previous
discussions, opinions are very much divided here, too.

So what does open mean:
- everything is available to look at?
- everything may be copied and re-used?
- everybody may participate and change things?
- all of that?

And what does free mean:
- generally available?
- free of restrictions on usage?
- free of cost?
- available in an open format?
- a combination of that?

In my personal opinion, PD is free, while OSM is already non-free as it 
puts severe restrictions on the usage of the data.

bye
Nop

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Re: [OSM-talk] Maxheight changes

2010/1/1 Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com

 If
 something over that height isn't allowed, then it doesn't matter how many
 zeros you add. If your car is 2.1 meters high, you're not allowed,
 period (...but with the devices used for measuring).


even legally there will be some tolerance, if a sign is saying maxheight 2,
you will not have any problems even if your vehicle is 2.01 metres high, nor
will a possible fine depend on the quality of measuring device used by the
police to get to an infinite number of trailing zeros before a 1.

Still I agree that 2.0 is different to 2 as ít indicates probably the
precision of the number.

cheers,
Martin
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

2010-01-02 Thread Aun Johnsen

  On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Nop ekkeh...@gmx.de wrote:



 Hi!

 Am 02.01.2010 00:23, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
  We cannot, and do not want to, trademark the words open, free and
  the like, but I think we could be a little bit more assertive about whom
  we consider to be a kindred spirit and who is doing his own thing, and
  apply the tiniest amount of pressure for people to upgrade from (b) to
 (a).
 
  I think many of us will be surprised how many cool OSM projects
  actually fall into the (b) category.

 Before we talk about putting projects in categories - this would assume
 that there is an agreement on what those terms mean and what is the
 right direction to move into. But as far as I got it from previous
 discussions, opinions are very much divided here, too.

 So what does open mean:
 - everything is available to look at?
 - everything may be copied and re-used?
 - everybody may participate and change things?
 - all of that?

 And what does free mean:
 - generally available?
 - free of restrictions on usage?
 - free of cost?
 - available in an open format?
 - a combination of that?

 In my personal opinion, PD is free, while OSM is already non-free as it
 puts severe restrictions on the usage of the data.

 bye
Nop



The term Open have been deluted long ago, and have a lot of different
meanings by now. OSM have also contributed a little to this delition of
Open.

Open = Open Source - Much of the drive behind OSM tools are Open Source,
though there are some that are not quite

Open = Open Terms - Well, CC-BY-SA are not completely an open term, should
it be completely open than we need to move it to PD, thats a different
discussion.

Open = Libre - Freedom have been put into the word open, that is not quite
right, but I will not argue. OSM give me more freedom in how to use the data
than any other crowdsourced projects I know of, and probably have the most
possible ways of using its data.

Open = Free - This is definitely a way of deluting the term. What you pay
for the product have nothing to do with the openness. Same also if we put
adverticement banners on the site in order to gather money to pay for
serverspace or bandwidth, we will still be free of charge for the users
though some people will argue that we are not completely free.

That also goes for the word Free, though it is mostly the same list as Open.
Maybe we should request all derived non-free non-open products to use the
word Available instead of Open or Free? AvailableCycleMap does not delute
the words Open or Free!
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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

2010/1/2 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com

 But, remove it from the main page where it appears comparable with OSM
 in the open sense, which it clearly isn't.



+1, IMHO it should not be an option on the main map page as it is less
open than OSM. Instead we could have other projects there, that are as
open as OSM (and that preferably cover the whole planet, don't know how much
of those there are at the moment).

I agree with Frederik that this is a discussion about the project, not about
Andy and his other contributions. It is our main page and a closed project
on the main page of OSM IMHO doesn't suit well.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

2010/1/2 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk

 Provided that this does not result in REMOVING ways that are mapped - or
 prevent
 adding the REAL fine detail of ways that do not actually physically form
 part of
 the 'accompanying' road. This sort of 'shorthand' should not replace
 mapping the
 real situation on the ground ESPECIALLY where the cycleway ( or
 sidewalk/footpath ) is not physically part of the 'accompanying' road.

 NOTHING should dictate that removing physical data is the 'correct' way of
 mapping!


+1
couldn't agree more. We had the case in Germany last year that separately
mapped cycleways were deleted and cycleway=track was added to a nearby road,
that actually was physically divided from the cycleway (which btw. was also
connected to another way, the main road wasn't - a situation that applies
quite often in similar cases).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

2010/1/1 Ulf Möller o...@ulfm.de

  You can check the satellite screen on the Garmin. It should show an
  estimated position accuracy.


 The eTrex often claims 10m accuracy when in fact it is 50m off, so that
 doesn't really help. Using two different GPS receivers is a good idea if
 you don't want to survey twice.



while this might help in the case your devices calculations/capabilities
create the offset, this is still no help in the case of atmospheric
interferences. Generally I'd say the more traces you can get, the better is.
If you got only 1 trace that shouldn't prevent you from mapping though:
enter the data the best you can (detailed tags are at least as valueable as
positional accuracy), and probably someone else will optimize the track with
new data in the future.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open


Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 +1, IMHO it should not be an option on the main map page as it is 
 less open than OSM. Instead we could have other projects there, 
 that are as open as OSM (and that preferably cover the whole 
 planet, don't know how much of those there are at the moment).

Right. When you've come up with a map that's as cartographically impressive,
as technologically capable, and as downright _useful_ as OpenCycleMap, come
back and ask again, won't you?

To me the front page of OSM seems like the ideal place to demonstrate look,
this is what having open data enables you to do. But, hey, maybe
fundamentalism is the in thing for 2010.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://old.nabble.com/Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open-%28was%3A-Re%3A--Talk-GB--Yet-another-trunk-road-query---A495%29-tp26989214p26995050.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010/1/2 Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de

 On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 10:14:41PM +1000, John Smith wrote:
  Hmmm perhaps I should have been a little clearer, I'm thinking of
  administrative boundaries, in particular boundary relations, and there
  is lots of area names rendering in the middle of no where or duplicate
  names close to each other because there is a boundary + a place node,



probably that's a mapping error? If there's a polygon the node could go. Or
it could be added to a relation, where the node would be inserted as
rendering-location-suggestion? This still might be different for different
views and zooms.



 Doesnt make sense - its just matter of fixing the mapnik config. I
 think currently it renders a name for all polygons. This should
 probably be limited to certain types.


well, I myself consider rendering all polygon-names a feature (nice to see
which features are maybe missing in the stylesheet), but for a clean map
for the consumer I'd agree with you (though I don't consider Mapnik-OSM as
such).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:

 well, I myself consider rendering all polygon-names a feature (nice to see
 which features are maybe missing in the stylesheet), but for a clean map
 for the consumer I'd agree with you (though I don't consider Mapnik-OSM as
 such).


Is a boundary relation a polygon?  Maybe the solution is that a boundary
relation is just a collection of ways, and multipolygon relation is a
polygon.
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010-01-02 Thread Aun Johnsen

 On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

2010/1/2 Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de

  On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 10:14:41PM +1000, John Smith wrote:
   Hmmm perhaps I should have been a little clearer, I'm thinking of
  administrative boundaries, in particular boundary relations, and there
  is lots of area names rendering in the middle of no where or duplicate
  names close to each other because there is a boundary + a place node,



 probably that's a mapping error? If there's a polygon the node could go. Or
 it could be added to a relation, where the node would be inserted as
 rendering-location-suggestion? This still might be different for different
 views and zooms.



 Doesnt make sense - its just matter of fixing the mapnik config. I
 think currently it renders a name for all polygons. This should
 probably be limited to certain types.


 well, I myself consider rendering all polygon-names a feature (nice to see
 which features are maybe missing in the stylesheet), but for a clean map
 for the consumer I'd agree with you (though I don't consider Mapnik-OSM as
 such).

 cheers,
 Martin
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Maybe the Mapnik-OSM should be further vectorized, I've just put in a ticket
on that on trac. The data we put into Mapnik allows for full vectorizing of
the map, though Mapnik actually produces a raster map. With a vectorized map
each user could enable and disable the layers as desired, i.e. could have
the map render a different shade on lit highways, remove the name of
supermarkets, etc. That would b of benefit as enabling ALL tags to be
rendered will overcrowd the map, and we are to many to really agree on which
to enable and which to disable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

Lennard,

Lennard wrote:
 Still, this issue always caused the labels to outside and to 
 the _east_ of the objects, and this is to the west. This particular case 
 may have another cause.

I think that there was someone on IRC a while ago pointing out the name 
of a natural reserve on the South African mainland which was rendered 
way out west on the water.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:


 Furthermore, if you're using more than one source, who's to say whether you
 copied the data from Google and verified it with the other source, or if you
 copied the data from the other source and verified it with Google?


Yeah, that's part of why I find this so-called copyrighting of facts...odd.
The name Thompson Street just doesn't contain enough creativity to make
this feasible. Imagine Google Maps contained a trap, a little street that
didn't actually exist, and it turned up in the OSM database too. It's hard
to see what they could use that to claim, other than that we copied *that
street*. So we delete it, where's the harm?



 On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 But if I was going to be doing ground surveys, there are lots of places
 I'd rather visit than these new outer suburban housing developments.


 Why aren't you mapping those places instead?


Not sure I understand the question. But to clarify: the places I'm
interested in surveying are either country towns, national/state parks, or
places in my city that are good for bike riding. But out of a sense of duty,
I also spend time tracing roads in outer suburban housing developments off
Nearmap - I just don't have any desire to go and visit them, least of all to
spend hours writing down street names, when there are much better places to
get the information from. My time being finite, I'll spend my survey time in
places of maximum utility/interest to me.

Anyway, the answer to my question seems to be use your own judgment, don't
tell anyone where you got the information from, and everything will be ok.
Which is a weird answer, but ok.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote:

 But I'd still agree with Shaun - a single GPS trace is not really
 accurate enough for adding ways to OSM IMO.


Hmmm...is there consensus on this view? My approach so far has been any
information that is approximately correct is better than nothing. The
quality of information can be improved over time, and a way whose endpoints
are correct but with a fictitious route is far more valuable than a
completely missing way. I'm even tempted to draw a massive straight line
between several towns to indicate roads that I know exist but that I haven't
surveyed. Would this offend a lot of people here?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

2010-01-02 Thread Dan Karran

2010/1/2 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:

Anyway, the answer to my question seems to be use your own judgment, don't
tell anyone where you got the information from, and everything will be ok.
Which is a weird answer, but ok.

I wouldn't say that's a widespread view of people in the project, just
a small minority. You shouldn't be using information from other
sources unless you know that they are free of any copyright (or from a
source with a compatible license), otherwise it has the potential to
cause issues in any area where copyrighted sources have been used.

I think the FAQ in the wiki[1] is quite clear in saying that you
generally shouldn't copy from other places:

===
What images and maps may I use to make maps from?

Most maps have copyright restrictions. This includes images from free
beer sites as Google Maps, and printed paper maps, even if you
scanned them yourself. Commercial aerial/satellite photography is also
copyrighted.

You should not use copyrighted maps in any way while editing
OpenStreetMap (unless it is compatible with our license). Using
includes tracing over the map, copying a name from the map, or
pinpointing a coordinate on the map. To be on the safe side, we tend
to regard all of these as a form of copying, or creating a derived
work. Generally speaking, it's best not to even look at copyrighted
maps while you are editing OpenStreetMap.

So what can you use? Not very much, which is why we are doing all this
re-surveying from scratch. However there are some Potential
Datasources, in particular we have imported TIGER data for the US, AND
Data for the Netherlands. We also make use of out-of-copyright maps
although they are very old, and Yahoo! Aerial Imagery (which we have
special permission to trace over).
===

Best wishes,
Dan

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#What_images_and_maps_may_I_use_to_make_maps_from.3F

--
Dan Karran
d...@karran.net
www.dankarran.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 But if I was going to be doing ground surveys, there are lots of places
 I'd rather visit than these new outer suburban housing developments.


 Why aren't you mapping those places instead?


 Not sure I understand the question. But to clarify: the places I'm
 interested in surveying are either country towns, national/state parks, or
 places in my city that are good for bike riding. But out of a sense of duty,
 I also spend time tracing roads in outer suburban housing developments off
 Nearmap - I just don't have any desire to go and visit them, least of all to
 spend hours writing down street names, when there are much better places to
 get the information from. My time being finite, I'll spend my survey time in
 places of maximum utility/interest to me.


I think we're all better off if people would not map out of a sense of
duty.  Stick to the places that you're interested in, and not only will you
get the most benefit, but we'll get the best maps.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

2010-01-02 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier

Steve Bennett wrote:
 On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Craig Wallace wrote:
 
 But I'd still agree with Shaun - a single GPS trace is not really
 accurate enough for adding ways to OSM IMO.
 
 Hmmm...is there consensus on this view? My approach so far has been any
 information that is approximately correct is better than nothing. The
 quality of information can be improved over time, and a way whose
 endpoints are correct but with a fictitious route is far more valuable
 than a completely missing way.

Anyway you put it, the map will only ever be an approximative
representation of reality, so approximation is the name of the game and
 improvement is part of it. But from approximative to fictious, there is
a line that I would not cross.

 I'm even tempted to draw a massive straight line between several
 towns to indicate roads that I know exist but that I haven't
 surveyed. Would this offend a lot of people here?

That would be using a map as an item in a to-do list. It would look ugly
to me and I doubt that many people would support that use. Better keep
the todo list separate - in another layer if you want it represented
geographically.

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Re: [OSM-talk] mapnik style for a cycle map

2010-01-02 Thread arno

Le samedi 02 janvier 2010, à 13:27:19 +0100, Lennard a écrit : 
 arno wrote:
 
  But opencyclemap style seems to be not publicly available[1]. So, I was 
  wondering if someone had a public osm.xml file intended for cycling. That 
  would probably be more easy to change than mapnik default rendering style.
 
 The stylesheets for the dutch cycling and walking overlays are available:
 
 http://git.openstreet.nl/index.cgi/stylesheets.git/tree/
 
 Look for the ones with 'fiets' (cycle) and 'wandel' (walking) in the 
 names. See what they look like on http://www.openfietskaart.nl/ and 
 http://www.openwandelkaart.nl/ respectively.
 
 Being overlays, they handle specific route rendering, and do not result 
 in the all-in-one tiles that OCM produces, but you're welcome to have a 
 look at them, and see what we've done.

thanks for those links :)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

2010/1/3 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
 I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
 extraction of insubstantial parts.  If you're just using a map site
 occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing.  If you're
 systematically using it on road after road, that's another.

I know for a fact that Google has plenty of mapping errors,
intentional or otherwise, why would this juust be limited to the
streets drawn?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Sarah,

Sarah Hoffmann wrote:
 More of (a) would be lovely. Speaking of it, is the source code behind 
 the OSM Inspector available somewhere? It might provide very instructive 
 to see how you do the data processing.

There's nothing special about the inspector itself and if anyone is 
interested we can probably release that (just a bunch of Javascript and 
Mapserver style files). The data files which OSMI uses are somewhat of a 
side product of our Geofabrik-internal, daily gobble up data and 
process it into all sorts of things our customers want job. This job is 
not Open-anything (not only does nobody get the source, nobody gets a 
binary either); it would currently be a major pain to separate the 
stuff for paying customers bit from the stuff for OSMI bit.

I have updated the OSMI wiki page accordingly. My main objective with 
this thread was a desire make it clear what is open and what isn't, and 
I hope the OSMI is now a good example of that.

But since you ask about the data processing; what we basically do is 
convert OSM data into our own format (which is not much different from 
CSV) and then use all sorts of utilities to convert it into whatever we 
need. This is a constantly evolving process, and early on we heavily 
relied on PostGIS for processing, but found that too clumsy and we're 
now moving away from PostGIS for as many things as possible.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010/1/3 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 probably that's a mapping error? If there's a polygon the node could go. Or
 it could be added to a relation, where the node would be inserted as
 rendering-location-suggestion? This still might be different for different
 views and zooms.

The problem is, unless the polygon is circular the centre of the
polygon is only occasionally where you want the name to render, so
only rendering nodes rather than polygon names makes more sense.

 well, I myself consider rendering all polygon-names a feature (nice to see
 which features are maybe missing in the stylesheet), but for a clean map
 for the consumer I'd agree with you (though I don't consider Mapnik-OSM as
 such).

If you want such custom rendered maps that's fine, but I don't think
it should happen on a tile set intended for general consumption...

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010/1/3 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 I think that there was someone on IRC a while ago pointing out the name
 of a natural reserve on the South African mainland which was rendered
 way out west on the water.

This happens with postcode boundaries too, due to the irregular shape
the name renders outside of them some times.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Defective GPS trace

2010/1/3 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
 completely missing way. I'm even tempted to draw a massive straight line
 between several towns to indicate roads that I know exist but that I haven't
 surveyed. Would this offend a lot of people here?

I've done this, I knew a road ran between 2 towns but wasn't on OSM,
so drew a straight line, and when I was able, I surveyed it properly.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010-01-02 Thread Patrick Kilian

Hi,

 I think that there was someone on IRC a while ago pointing out the name
 of a natural reserve on the South African mainland which was rendered
 way out west on the water. 
 This happens with postcode boundaries too, due to the irregular shape
 the name renders outside of them some times.

Does anybody here know a reasonably fast algorithm which finds the
center of the (largest) incircle of a polygon? And would you find that a
suitable stop for the label of the polygon?
I tried to play around with that idea but couldn't come up with an
algorithm to find that point efficiently in the general case.
Furthermore I'm not totally sure if it really is the optimal place for
the label as the label itself is not circular but much wider then the
vertical extend.
It might trigger a smart idea for automatic label placement in somebody,
so I decided to share the idea.


Patrick Petschge Kilian

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

2010/1/3 Patrick Kilian o...@petschge.de:
 Does anybody here know a reasonably fast algorithm which finds the
 center of the (largest) incircle of a polygon? And would you find that a
 suitable stop for the label of the polygon?
 I tried to play around with that idea but couldn't come up with an
 algorithm to find that point efficiently in the general case.
 Furthermore I'm not totally sure if it really is the optimal place for
 the label as the label itself is not circular but much wider then the
 vertical extend.

In the case of suburb polygons in Australia, even if you do figure out
a better way to centre the label the centre of the polygon isn't
always the town centre.

Cartography is an art form, and you will never be able to do this sort
of thing perfectly by extrapolation from the boundary.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Hi,

first of all, I wasn't intending this to become an opencyclemap 
bashing thread. I wasn't even aware that there is something non-open 
about opencyclemap; I was prompted by your quote of openmtbmap. I didn't 
have a hidden agenda -

I'm not saying we should try to shame non-open solutions into 
submission. There are good and valid reasons for people to do things 
non-open.

Your argument about flash players and JVMs leads nowhere; I am not 
talking about openness of the target infrastructure but openness of the 
process. If I let you see and use all aspects of my work but you still 
need to buy a processor from Intel in order to practically use my work, 
that does not make my work less open.

Maybe instead of trying to define what counts as open, we could more 
easily say what is not open. If someone gives me a map rendered from 
OSM, but doesn't give me the style sheets or rule files or whatever so 
that I can see how he arrived at this map, then that map is most 
certainly not open. The process is secret. The map maker has maybe spent 
a lot of time figuring things out, and enjoys writing books or speaking 
at conferences about the cool aspects of his map that others cannot yet 
match, or tries to sell his consulting expertise. And it is his right to 
do so; and you are right in saying that in many cases such a non-open 
map will benefit the project more than no map at all. But that doesn't 
change the fact that the map is not open, and that others in the project 
who want to compete with that map will have to go through the same 
learning curve again instead of being offered the chance to stand on 
the shoulders of giants.

 But, hey, maybe fundamentalism is the in thing for 2010.

I wonder why you seem so fundamentally opposed to what I'm saying. The 
OSM mission statement contains the idea of [using geodata] in creative, 
productive, or unexpected ways. There can be no doubt that someone who 
makes his stylesheet and processes available for others to build on acts 
in this spirit.

It seems that my suggestion has conjured up images of some kind of 
openness police that will hunt down anyone who does something 
non-open, together with a mega-infectuous share-alike license that says 
that the second you even look at anything to do with OSM you have to 
upload your brain  hard disk to Richard Stallman. (Or should that now 
be Jordan ;-)

I assure you that this is not the case. As you know, I'm a PD advocate. 
Software I write, and data I contribute, is usually PD. As such, I tend 
to rely more on community norms and less on legal stuff: I make my 
things available for everyone, and I welcome it if others do the same. I 
will not hate someone who does not make his things available like I do, 
but I will probably be more willing to help a fellow free software 
author than someone who does proprietary stuff.

All I'm trying to do is introduce proper labeling - what is open and 
what isn't - and create a little incentive for people to share the cool 
stuff they do with OSM. An incentive - not a rule. Sharing something is 
often more than just uploading it to SVN. You have to put in a bit of 
documentation, remove that commented-out code over there, polish the 
whole thing a little bit for its public appearance. Maybe even remove 
the drats, I  don't know what this option does but it doesn't work 
without comments as they make you look silly ;-) That is extra work - 
work you don't have to do if you keep your stuff secret. All I want is 
to give people something in return - something like you get a silver 
star if you make a cool OSM-based application, and you get a gold star 
if you share it.

I think it is good and right to make this distinction. I don't feel that 
this warrants the fundamentalism battle cry. Maybe some won't buy food 
labeled organic and others won't buy food not labeled so; but that 
doesn't make proper labeling fundamentalistic. Proper labeling is just that!

As someone else pointed out, it is sometimes quite difficult to find out 
exactly how open something is. If everyone who announced some cool new 
OSM map or OSM editor or OSM web site could be encouraged to specify 
exactly which bits of his application are open and which aren't, that 
would make many things easier.

The Garmin map page that Ulf mentioned, where you have a green/red 
source available column, is very much what I was thinking of - maybe 
green/red is too harsh and it should indeed be gold/silver, but the 
table overall does not create the impression that the non-open stuff is 
somehow despicable. If something like that could be made a habit in OSM 
- call a spade a spade, and say where something is open and where it has 
little black boxes full of secrets, that would go a long way to making 
me happy in this respect.

(I'll review mentionings of Geofabrik services on the Wiki and amend 
them accordingly.)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

2010-01-02 Thread Colin Marquardt

2010/1/3 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 The Garmin map page that Ulf mentioned, where you have a green/red
 source available column, is very much what I was thinking of - maybe
 green/red is too harsh and it should indeed be gold/silver, but the
 table overall does not create the impression that the non-open stuff is
 somehow despicable.

Here is another such list:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services

Cheers
  Colin

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !

Hi,

Patrick Kilian wrote:
 Does anybody here know a reasonably fast algorithm which finds the
 center of the (largest) incircle of a polygon? And would you find that a
 suitable stop for the label of the polygon?

Bobkare of t...@h fame has spent some thoughts on this and devised the 
original osmarender area centre algorithm which seems to work quite 
well. When I did or/p initially I tried to implement his algorithm but 
somehow it didn't work, and to this day or/p only uses a primitive area 
centre algorithm, while the better one is in the XSLT version only.

Also, Jiri Klement has once written a Java preprocessor that does area 
centre computation, also mainly for t...@h. You should find ample 
discussion on all this over on the t...@h mailing list.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
   
 +1, IMHO it should not be an option on the main map page as it is 
 less open than OSM. Instead we could have other projects there, 
 that are as open as OSM (and that preferably cover the whole 
 planet, don't know how much of those there are at the moment).
 

 Right. When you've come up with a map that's as cartographically impressive,
 as technologically capable, and as downright _useful_ as OpenCycleMap, come
 back and ask again, won't you?
   

This is a classic example of  someone whingeing after they were 
expecting to be lauded with praise  palm leaves, as they rode through 
the city on a donkey, for doing something that no one told them or 
expected them to do. At the first sign of criticism they get all offended.

When you've come up with a map that's as cartographically impressive,
as technologically capable, and as downright _useful_ as OpenCycleMap,

No one on this thread actually criticized OCM on this level, but since 
you bring it up I would say it's distinctly average:

I mean, who, when planning a ride is desperate to deliver a letter to a 
letter box?
It doesn't display at level 18 which can lead to confusion in city centres.
It doesn't display the difference between paths  footways.
Bicycle parking labels on given a number of spaces if greater than 20. 
Personally I think knowing the number of smaller bike racks would be as, 
if not, more useful.
It doesn't display certain areas such as leisure=nature_reserve

Oh!  it's not open so that others who want to help improve it can 
contribute.

The one thing that is decent is the contour rendering.

 To me the front page of OSM seems like the ideal place to demonstrate look,
 this is what having open data enables you to do. But, hey, maybe
 fundamentalism is the in thing for 2010.

We keep on being told in these forums that OSM is _not_ a map making 
exercise, that it is purely a database for making maps. Yet, in big 
letters on the front page it says Show me the map - get out of my way!

It needs to be one way or the other.
Personally I think it _should_ be promoting map renderings, but on it's 
main map page it should be one that is truly open in the sense of OSM.

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Not-properly-Open-but-called-Open

Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Your argument about flash players and JVMs leads nowhere; I am not
 talking about openness of the target infrastructure but openness of the
 process.

I know you're not.

Nonetheless neither you nor I have a monopoly on defining open. People 
on this list have, in the past, regretted that OSM is viewable on 
non-free browsers, and that the source code for routing software using 
OSM data does not have to be released (in an AGPL style). There are 
people who feel that OSM absolutely should not have a Flash-based editor 
on the Edit tab. I don't agree with them, but that's not to say they're 
wrong and I'm right.

So I don't want OSM to get into arguments about opener than thou - 
gold stars or silver stars or the purple raspberry of Bad Closed Source 
No Donut. You have one definition; I have another; so does everyone on 
this list. We won't agree. If we start imposing additional demands over 
and above open geodata, then we shall talk ourselves to death as 
Google buries us with our own confusion.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [talk-au] MapOSMatic will now do any where...

2010/1/2 James Andrewartha tr...@student.uwa.edu.au:
 Logic is not the only requirement for useful conversation. Assuming
 good faith is also important, and something that you often don't do

Which he failed to do, he's sent some nasty comments to me personally
with respect to what others have posted on the talk list.

 when asking if someone has filed a bug or accuse them of trying to

He didn't ask if anyone had filed a bug, he mentioned it would be nice
if potlatch did the same thing, meaning someone else should file a bug
about it because he hasn't or won't

 limit the project. We're all here because we believe OSM is a great

Ummm perhaps you should re-read what he wrote because he was asking to
limit OSM, or at least what people are contributing.

 project to work on, there's no need to needle people so much.

I wasn't needling anyone, but he seems to have taken it as such.

 When you treat someone as though they're acting dishonestly, you can't
 expect that to be ignored.

I've no idea how you came to that conclusion, I never accused anyone
of anything of the sort.

 I do, as his decision will mean less of your spam on the list (of
 course now I'm guilty of this, but whatever).

Please point out where I sent (commercially) unsolicted emails to the
list? Otherwise stop claiming I'm spamming, since that is factually
untrue.

Also I fail to see your point here, just because he doesn't reply how
will that limit what I send to the list? It will just limit what he
receives...

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Re: [talk-au] NearMap PhotoMap imagery for OSM

2010/1/2 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
 http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/3983

I managed to get this to work, although I did it in slightly a lazy
way in that you can't supply a completely custom URL, I just added a
type option for custom URLs, so you could tell the system to send
/z/x/y.png or x=$xy=$yz=$z and the URL you feed the URL section you
can specify the date. Needs to be fixed up to do proper URL parsing
etc, but works well enough to avoid needing to user morb_au's apache
redirection hack.

slippymap.custom_tile_source_1.ext=jpg
slippymap.custom_tile_source_1.name=Nearmap with custom date
slippymap.custom_tile_source_1.url=http://www.nearmap.com/maps/nml=Vertnmd=20091031
slippymap.custom_tile_source_1.type=URL

I've uploaded a patch, and you can download a copy of the current
slippymap plugin from the latest branch here:

http://map-data.bigtincan.com/data/slippymap.jar

I doubt the plugin will work against the current stable version, and
no idea if my code will be included in the next stable release or not.

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[talk-au] Walker intention books - how to tag?

2010-01-02 Thread Mark Pulley

Anyone got any suggestions on how to tag walker intention books? These  
are located at the start of walks in remote areas so park rangers /  
rescue services know where you were going if you don't come back. The  
Hiking page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking doesn't help.


At Strzelecki Peaks on Flinders Island I recently tagged one, this was  
located with a board, so I used tourism=information,  
information=board, note=walker intention book located here.
I'm currently adding Staircase and Eskdale Spur walks on Mount Bogong  
- there are two books to tag, but no boards with them (just a post  
with a metal box containing the book - the map is elsewhere). Any  
ideas? (tourism=information, information=guidepost doesn't seem  
appropriate here!)


Strzelecki Peaks book (shown as i in Osmarender):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-40.20439lon=148.0505zoom=17layers=0B00FTF

First Mount Bogong book will be here (I haven't saved anything yet so  
it looks rather blank at the moment):

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.7020123lon=147.2587325zoom=21

Mark P.
---
They offered to transport me back to any point in history that I  
would care to
 go, and so I had them send me back to last Thursday night, so I  
could pay my

 phone bill on time.
 (Weird Al Yankovic, Everything You Know Is Wrong)

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Re: [talk-au] Walker intention books - how to tag?

2010-01-02 Thread John Henderson

I've wondered the same thing myself.

My thought is that a user-defined amenity tag might be the most 
appropriate, given the lack of anything already defined.

amenity=logbook

seems simple and meaningful to me.  Log books are frequently used to 
give and to update intentions.

Maybe it could be adopted in the hiking wiki.

John

Mark Pulley wrote:
 Anyone got any suggestions on how to tag walker intention books? These 
 are located at the start of walks in remote areas so park rangers / 
 rescue services know where you were going if you don't come back. The 
 Hiking page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking doesn't help.
 
 At Strzelecki Peaks on Flinders Island I recently tagged one, this was 
 located with a board, so I used tourism=information, information=board, 
 note=walker intention book located here.
 I'm currently adding Staircase and Eskdale Spur walks on Mount Bogong - 
 there are two books to tag, but no boards with them (just a post with a 
 metal box containing the book - the map is elsewhere). Any ideas? 
 (tourism=information, information=guidepost doesn't seem appropriate here!)
 
 Strzelecki Peaks book (shown as i in Osmarender):
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-40.20439lon=148.0505zoom=17layers=0B00FTF
  
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-40.20439lon=148.0505zoom=17layers=0B00FTF
 
 
 First Mount Bogong book will be here (I haven't saved anything yet so it 
 looks rather blank at the moment):
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.7020123lon=147.2587325zoom=21
 
 
 Mark P.
 
 ---
 
 They offered to transport me back to any point in history that I would 
 care to
 
  go, and so I had them send me back to last Thursday night, so I could 
 pay my
 
  phone bill on time.
 
  (Weird Al Yankovic, Everything You Know Is Wrong)
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

2010-01-02 Thread John Henderson

As you say, I and others have been using the node tag 
highway=turning_circle for this.

It seems to neatly fit the bill:

A turning circle is a rounded, widened area usually, but not 
necessarily, at the end of a road to facilitate easier turning of a 
vehicle.

John

Jim Croft wrote:
 Many of the residential 'dead ends' in Giralang are terminated by neat
 little blobs that render sort of like the turning radius at the ends
 of these streets.  This is not uniform practice across the ACT.
 
 On inspection, these blobs are labelled 'turning circle'...  which
 seems a bit at the extreme end of the definition in these cases.
 
 Should all dead ends with an expanded turning radius be terminated
 this way in OSM?  Need advice about what to do with the end of my
 street - and the others in the suburb...  :)
 
 Interestingly, the ACT govt public maps deal with this in their
 on-line application by drawing the actual line of the curb as it
 curves out and around.
 
 jim
 


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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Many of the residential 'dead ends' in Giralang are terminated by neat
 little blobs that render sort of like the turning radius at the ends
 of these streets.  This is not uniform practice across the ACT.

 On inspection, these blobs are labelled 'turning circle'...  which
 seems a bit at the extreme end of the definition in these cases.


Can you give examples? A widened end at the end of a street sounds like the
definition of a turning circle?

One pattern I'm seeing a lot of is a kind of Y or T shape at the end of the
street, where each end of the Y provides room for maybe one car to park in
front of a house. I'm mostly sort of ignoring them, not sure if they justify
a whole extra way or not. A node tag would be nice, but I don't know what to
call it.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

2010/1/2 Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com:
 Interestingly, the ACT govt public maps deal with this in their
 on-line application by drawing the actual line of the curb as it
 curves out and around.

Unless you have surveyor grade equipment (and the budget to pay for a
surveyor) highway=turning_circle is usually good enough, although if a
car has to do a 3 point turn I use highway=no_exit or some kind of
barrier=*...

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[talk-au] Nearmap to do Melbourne to NSW border....

Just noticed this on their forum...

http://forum.nearmap.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=67

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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com wrote:

 ok - will give it a go.  my mental image of a turning circle may have
 been more like a round about...


You may have been thinking of traffic circle, the US term for a
roundabout.

Canberra must have more of these things than any other .au city...


Nah, the outer suburbs of Melbourne are full of them, for a start. Someone's
theory that living in cul de sacs is safer/more desirable, and that people
like to be able to turn around.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] broken JOSM

2010-01-02 Thread Elizabeth Dodd

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, you wrote:
  decided to try merkaartor again in the interim
  but will report back
 
 I really should try that out, but people keep saying it isn't as
 feature rich as JOSM...
 
nearmap runs from svn without trouble
has a roundabout creation tool
and /should/ have geotagged photos but something has gone wrong there and I 
await a reply on the mailing list


-- 
Sheriff Chameleotoptor sighed with an air of weary sadness, and then
turned to Doppelgutt and said 'The Senator must really have been on a
bender this time -- he left a party in Cleveland, Ohio, at 11:30 last
night, and they found his car this morning in the smokestack of a British
aircraft carrier in the Formosa Straits.'
-- Grand Panjandrum's Special Award, 1985 Bulwer-Lytton
   bad fiction contest.

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Re: [Talk-br] Material interessante para o OSM

2010-01-02 Thread Vitor George

Olá,

Para sanar o problema de incorreção, ou inexistência, iniciamos o projeto
Brasil 250 Cidades:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Brasil_250_Cidades

Os dados do IBGE são úteis porque em muitos casos há apenas que alinhar e
ajustar alguns pontos.

Abs,
Vitor

2010/1/1 enqd e...@ymail.com

 Eu realmente discordo. Se uma pessoa usa o mapa para fazer rota,
 certamente ele ficará mais frustrado em saber que a maioria dos dados
 estão errados do que não existir dados suficientes.
 Ter várias informações erradas, é como fingir ter um mapa completo. Eu
 acredito que em relação as estradas é preciso ter informações mais
 próximas do correto.
 Até para quem vai adicionar estradas ou editar fica complicado, devido
 as estradas erradas importadas do IBGE.
 Minha sugestão é se possível remover todas as estradas importadas pelo
 IBGE que estão muito erradas.

 2010/1/1 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
 
 
  2010/1/2 enqd e...@ymail.com
 
  Olá pessoal, estou começando a me familiarizar com o Osm, no começo
  estava um pouco complicado, mas pouco a pouco vou me aprofundando
  mais.
  Recentemente encontrei um site com alguns arquivos GPS em formato GTM
  que pode ser muito interessante. Eu converti um dos arquivos e
  utilizei para corrigir a estrada de Brasília a Unaí e um pouco mais
  adiante.
  O site com os arquivos é http://onix.com.br/ivan/gps.htm
  Para baixar os arquivos, clique em roteiro
  para converter para GPX, basta usar a ferramente online no site:
  http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/
 
  O cara que postou as rotas tem um email que está disponível nesse
  site: http://onix.com.br/ivan/
  Se alguém desejar comunica-lo a respeito do projeto OSM seria
  interessante, (Talvez ele se interesse pelo projeto e comece a
  contribuir também)
 
  Obs: Uma coisa que percebi é que várias estradas estão erradas
  (totalmente desalinhadas). Essas estradas parecem ter sido importadas
  do IBGE. Para adicionar a estrada Brasília - Caldas Novas e Brasília -
  Unaí, tive que deletar vários segmentos.
  Não sei como foi feita essa importação, mas se for para ter algo
  totalmente errado, acho melhor que fossem deletadas e só fosse aceito
  adicionar estradas importadas de dados de GPS, pois o Yahoo não cobre
  com o zoom de qualidade as estradas brasileiras.
 
  Quase tudos os rodovias importado pelo IBGE precicar controle, eu ja fiz
  este com BR-262 Belo Horizonte para Vitoria, e alguns outros pedasses.
 Achou
  que e melhor continuar com os dados de IBGE e ajustar onde tem dados
 melhor
  ou mais recente, que chirar, o mapa parecendo mais completo com este.
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  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
 
 

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[Talk-de] Happy New Year! - Neujahrsedition des Worldfile vom 31.12.09/1.1.10

2010-01-02 Thread Carsten Schwede

Hallo,

die neuen Daten liegen wie gewohnt zum Download bereit unter:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Computerteddy

-- 
Viele Grüße
Carsten


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[Talk-de] Disability Description - voting started

2010-01-02 Thread Lulu-Ann

Hello lists,

the voting has started on the feature Disability Description.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/DisabilityDescription

This is planned to be rendered on 

http://www.accessiblemaps.org 

Regards
Lulu-Ann


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Re: [Talk-de] Freietonne DB

Hallo Mirko,

   auch im neuen Jahr stuende Dir etwas *weniger* Schaum vor dem Mund 
sicherlich gut zu Gesicht.

 Kann man sich nun zukünftig öfters an solchen überflüssigen anonymen 
 Edits erfreuen,

Die Edits sind nicht anonym; wenn Du an den User schreibst, der dahinter 
steckt, wird das soweit ich weiss durchaus von einem Menschen gelesen.

Und wenn Du dabei einen Ton anschlaegst, in dem Du nicht gleich alles 
verteufelst, was Du Dir nicht selbst ausgedacht hast, ist die 
Erfolgswahrscheinlichkeit sogar noch groesser ;-)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-de] Freietonne DB

 Die Edits sind nicht anonym; wenn Du an den User schreibst, der dahinter 
 steckt, wird das soweit ich weiss durchaus von einem Menschen gelesen.

Genau darum gehts ja. In OSM erscheint durch den FT DB Eingriff nur 
Freietonne selbst. Das kam von FT und nicht aus OSM. Auf der verlinkten 
Seite von FT selbst ist nur jjOffline zu sehen. Was oder wer das ist kann 
man nur raten. Kontaktmöglichkeiten gibts aber generell nicht.

  Und wenn Du dabei einen Ton anschlaegst, in dem Du nicht gleich alles
 verteufelst, was Du Dir nicht selbst ausgedacht hast, ist die 
 Erfolgswahrscheinlichkeit sogar noch groesser ;-)

Hat damit nichts zu tun, im Gegenteil. Ich warte ja noch immer auf eine 
Reihe von Schifffahrtszeichen deren Standort ich habe, die aber noch nicht 
abgedeckt werden.  Da trage ich die auch gerne ein, da bin ich auf der Seite 
von FT.

Wenn das aber damit endet das ohnehin schwierig aktuell zu haltene Gebiet 
öfters noch nach doppelten Informationen eines weiteren Bots absuchen zu 
müssen, man das dann nichtmal mit dem entsprechendem Verfasser abklären 
kann, der augenscheinlich nur aus der Ferne orkaelt hat, ist das nicht 
wirklich lustig. Amok laufende Bots haben wir reichlich. Die Geschichte mit 
Eigenenamen von Waldwegen reicht mir da schon. Da wird auch jede Strasse mit 
Straße überschrieben, obwohl das keine Straßennamen ansich sind. Mit 
historischen Daten brauche ich da garnicht erst fangen.

Gruß
Mirko 


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Re: [Talk-de] Konzentrationslager/Arbeitserziehungslager

Nach der HMA nun ein weiteres Testobjekt, diemal mit zwei Generationen Daten 
unter den Aktuellen. Jetzt aber vor meiner Tür, damits keinen anderen stören 
kann.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.29592lon=11.46672zoom=15layers=B000FTF

Es handelt sich um die Gewerkschaft Roßleben mit den Schächten Roßleben und 
Wendelstein vor der Rekonstruktion etwa 1950, nach 1960 wurde umgebaut und 
erweitert. Das ganze ließe sich noch von 1903 bis zu Rekonstruktion 
jahresgenau abstufen.

Dieser Datensatz ist wie zuvor mit einem historic Namensraum vor jedem 
Schlüssel gekennzeichnet. Diesmal jedoch um die Jahresangabe erweitert. Das 
könnte man bis hin zu konkreten Daten, oder mit einem weiteren Schritt auch 
Zeiten machen. Wäre so vielleicht auch ein Lösung für zukünftige oder 
temporäre Sachen, die nur in speziellen Renderern oder zu bestimmten Zeiten 
sichtbar werden sollen und bei Bedarf eventuell auch automatisch entfernt 
werden könnten.

Die Gerwerkschaft Roßleben um 1950 versteckt sich historic:1950:. Die 
Objekte mit diesem Namensraum muss man sich nur abgreifen, nach isolierung 
selbigen Schlüssel entfernen und schon kann das ganze ganz normal gerendert 
werden.

Darüber dann der Zustand der etwa 1990 entspricht. Der sich nun VEB 
Kalibetrieb Südharz, Werk Heinrich Rau Roßleben bezeichnende Betrieb hatte 
zu diesem Zeitpunkt seine größte Ausdehnung. Diese Daten sind mit 
historic:1990: gekennzeichnet. Was nach 1992 daraus und samt tausenden 
Arbeitsplätzen wurde sieht man im aktuellen normalen Datensatz.

Auch hier könnte man noch weiter gehen. Einige hundert Meter darunter liegt 
das eigentliche Abbaugebiet. Das sind aber mehrere Stollen übereinander. Ein 
dichtes Netz was mit weiteren angeschlossenen Gruben im Westen bis nach 
Ziegelroda, im Osten bis Nebra und im Norden bis etwa Schmon reicht. Das ist 
zu dicht und zieht falsche Verbindungen mit Daten darüber an.

Gruß
Mirko 


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Re: [Talk-de] Freietonne DB

2010-01-02 Thread Ulf Möller

Mirko Küster schrieb:

 Genau darum gehts ja. In OSM erscheint durch den FT DB Eingriff nur 
 Freietonne selbst. Das kam von FT und nicht aus OSM. Auf der verlinkten 
 Seite von FT selbst ist nur jjOffline zu sehen. Was oder wer das ist kann 
 man nur raten. Kontaktmöglichkeiten gibts aber generell nicht.

Hast du denn mal den Account angeschrieben, unter dem das in OSM 
hochgeladen wurde? Das wird doch sicher jemand lesen und entsprechend 
weiterleiten können.


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Re: [Talk-de] Freietonne DB

 Hast du denn mal den Account angeschrieben, unter dem das in OSM
 hochgeladen wurde? Das wird doch sicher jemand lesen und entsprechend
 weiterleiten können.

Lieber Freietonne DB Bot...
Damit erreichst du nur den FT Admin selbst. Wäre elaganter wenn man den 
betreffenden dann selbst erreicht und keiner stille Post spielen müsste.

Mitlerweile hat sich das aber geklärt. Mein Fix war vorhin wieder entfixt, 
diesmal teilweise direkt in OSM. Es war Jan Jesse selbst. Ist bereits 
kontaktiert.

Gruß
Mirko



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Re: [Talk-de] Freietonne DB

2010-01-02 Thread Ulf Lamping

Am 02.01.2010 15:27, schrieb Mirko Küster:
 Hast du denn mal den Account angeschrieben, unter dem das in OSM
 hochgeladen wurde? Das wird doch sicher jemand lesen und entsprechend
 weiterleiten können.

 Lieber Freietonne DB Bot...
 Damit erreichst du nur den FT Admin selbst. Wäre elaganter wenn man den
 betreffenden dann selbst erreicht und keiner stille Post spielen müsste.

Hast schon recht.

Darüber soll sich aber dann der Bot Besitzer Gedanken drum machen, wie 
er seine Arbeitszeit sinnvoll nutzt.

Gruß, ULFL

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[Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

2010-01-02 Thread Peter Herison

Moin moin

Ich hab' hier eine Strasse
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25788793), die von der
Hauptstrasse in Richtung Feld abzweigt. Am Anfang ist es aber noch ein
normaleer highway=residential, der zu ein paar Haeusern fuehrt, unter
anderem dem Vereinsgelaede eines lokalen Karneval-Vereins.
Die Strasse hat ein Schild mit Namen Frohsinn Weg. Die offizielle
Adresse des Vereins lautet allerdings Im Heidegraben 29, was auch mit
der Hausnummer am Gebaeude uebereinstimmt.

Frage 1: Was kommt in den Name-Tag? Der offizielle, oder der vom Schild?
Frage 2: Was ist der 2. Name? loc_name? alt_name?



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[Talk-de] Probleme mit LeanJOSM

2010-01-02 Thread Bernd Wurst

Hi.

Da ich gerne täglich frische Software nutze aber nur endlich Bandbreite 
habe, hab ich mich über Frederiks LeanJOSM sehr gefreut.

Seit einiger Zeit (hab's nur sporadisch getestet) habe ich aber einige 
elementare Probleme damit:

- Sobald ein (beliebiges) Plugin geladen wird, kommt ein NoSuchMethodError.
java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: 
org.openstreetmap.josm.gui.ExtendedDialog.setContent(Ljava/lang/String;)V
at 
org.openstreetmap.josm.plugins.PluginHandler.loadPlugins(PluginHandler.java:126)
   
at 
org.openstreetmap.josm.gui.MainApplication.main(MainApplication.java:152) 


- Sobald man eine Änderung hochladen will, kommt ein NoSuchMethodError (hatte 
den nur grafisch, irgendwas mit Changeset.getID() oder so).


Ohne diese beiden Funktionen ist JOSM zwar komplett wertlos, funktioniert 
ansonsten aber. ;-))


Im Ernst: Frederik, kannst du bitte mal danach schauen? Offenbar wird da was 
rausgepatched was man eher drinlassen sollte.

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
Columbus hatte in Wirklichkeit vier Schiffe -
das vierte segelte über die Kante


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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

2010-01-02 Thread malenki

Peter Herison schrieb:

(http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25788793), die von der
Hauptstrasse in Richtung Feld abzweigt. Am Anfang ist es aber noch ein
normaleer highway=residential, der zu ein paar Haeusern fuehrt, unter
anderem dem Vereinsgelaede eines lokalen Karneval-Vereins.
Die Strasse hat ein Schild mit Namen Frohsinn Weg. Die offizielle
Adresse des Vereins lautet allerdings Im Heidegraben 29, was auch mit
der Hausnummer am Gebaeude uebereinstimmt.

Es gibt öfter Adressen, deren Adressanschrift nicht mit dem Name der
Straße übereinstimmt, an dem sich die Adresse befindet/zu befinden
scheint.

Frage 1: Was kommt in den Name-Tag? Der offizielle, oder der vom
Schild? 

Wer soll das endgültig entscheiden? Ist das Schild inoffiziell? 
Ich würde dem Augenschein nach taggen und den Name vom Schild
verwenden.

Frage 2: Was ist der 2. Name? loc_name? alt_name?

Zusätzlich solltes du ja beim Verein und der Stadt
nachfragen, wie es sich mit dem Straßenname verhält



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Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

2010-01-02 Thread qbert biker

Hallo,

hab heute noch ein wenig mit dem Programm rumgespielt und 
eine alternative Visualisierung gemacht:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2618/bosmcrossing2.png

Die Ausgangsdaten sind gleich geblieben, also:

http://www.opencarbox.de/osm/test6.osm.bz2

Vielen Dank an Guenther Meyer fürs Bereitstellen.

Für die Änderungen der Spuranzahl auf der Strecke muss ich
mir noch was einfallen lassen, eine Abschrägung sollte
es fürs erste tun. 

Gruesse Hubert


 Original-Nachricht 
 Datum: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 11:05:17 +0100
 Von: qbert biker qbe...@gmx.de
 An: talk-de@openstreetmap.org
 Betreff: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung

 Erstmal ein gutes Neues zusammen!
 
 Ich war letztes Jahr mal in ein paar Diskussionen dabei, in
 denen es um spurgenaue Abbildung von Autobahnkreuzen, etc.
 ging. Ueber die Feiertage hatte ich Zeit, ein wenig
 damit zu spielen und das ist dabei rausgekommen:
 
 http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7219/bosmcrossing1.png
 
 Das Kreuz ist bei Herford (ca. 52°05'20'', 8°41'46'') und
 wurde mal im November als Beispiel angegeben:
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.08868lon=8.69753zoom=17layers=B000FTF
 
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2009-November/058720.html
 
 Ich bin dabei komplett ohne Relations ausgekommen und habe
 als Eingangsdaten nur 'lanes', '*.link', 'oneway' und 
 'highway' verwendet (ohne Gewähr auf Vollständigkeit). Bei
 einer angenommenen Spurbreite von 5m sieht das ganze
 relativ realistisch aus.
 
 Allerdings habe ich das Kreuz lokal bei mir ziemlich umbauen
 muessen, damit das raus kommt, was zu sehen ist. Die 
 Änderungen habe ich sicherheitshalber nicht hochgeladen, denn 
 mit einem lokalen Datensatz kann man besser basteln ohne die
 anderen zu stören. 
 
 Gruesse Hubert
 -- 
 GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
 Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
 
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Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 -
sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser

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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

2010-01-02 Thread Torsten Leistikow

Peter Herison schrieb am 02.01.2010 16:32:
 Ich hab' hier eine Strasse
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25788793), die von der
 Hauptstrasse in Richtung Feld abzweigt. Am Anfang ist es aber noch ein
 normaleer highway=residential, der zu ein paar Haeusern fuehrt, unter
 anderem dem Vereinsgelaede eines lokalen Karneval-Vereins.
 Die Strasse hat ein Schild mit Namen Frohsinn Weg. Die offizielle
 Adresse des Vereins lautet allerdings Im Heidegraben 29, was auch mit
 der Hausnummer am Gebaeude uebereinstimmt.

Die Kombination aus Karnevalverein und dem Strassennamen Frohsinn Weg laesst
mich an der Korrektheit des Strassenschildes zweifeln. Aber frage doch einfach
mal einen Anwohner, die werden schon wissen wo sie wohnen.

Gruss
Torsten

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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

2010-01-02 Thread Colin Marquardt

Am 2. Januar 2010 16:32 schrieb Peter Herison pheri...@web.de:
 Ich hab' hier eine Strasse
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25788793), die von der
 Hauptstrasse in Richtung Feld abzweigt. Am Anfang ist es aber noch ein
 normaleer highway=residential, der zu ein paar Haeusern fuehrt, unter
 anderem dem Vereinsgelaede eines lokalen Karneval-Vereins.
 Die Strasse hat ein Schild mit Namen Frohsinn Weg. Die offizielle
 Adresse des Vereins lautet allerdings Im Heidegraben 29, was auch mit
 der Hausnummer am Gebaeude uebereinstimmt.

 Frage 1: Was kommt in den Name-Tag? Der offizielle, oder der vom Schild?
 Frage 2: Was ist der 2. Name? loc_name? alt_name?

Klingt mir nach
name=Im Heidegraben; fun_name=Frohsinn Weg; fun_name:note=(sp!)

alt_name waere mir zu offiziell, das Schild haben doch bestimmt bloss
die Karnevalisten aufgestellt?
(Wenn diese aufgrund einer Anfrage an die Stadt gezwungen werden,
diese Anmassung abzubauen, ist OSM bestimmt auf Jahre Thema der
Festreden, hat doch auch was :)

Cheers
  Colin

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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

2010-01-02 Thread Bernd Wurst

Hallo Peter.

Am Samstag 02 Januar 2010 16:32:34 schrieb Peter Herison:
 Ich hab' hier eine Strasse
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25788793), die von der
 Hauptstrasse in Richtung Feld abzweigt. Am Anfang ist es aber noch ein
 normaleer highway=residential, der zu ein paar Haeusern fuehrt, unter
 anderem dem Vereinsgelaede eines lokalen Karneval-Vereins.
 Die Strasse hat ein Schild mit Namen Frohsinn Weg. Die offizielle
 Adresse des Vereins lautet allerdings Im Heidegraben 29, was auch mit
 der Hausnummer am Gebaeude uebereinstimmt.

Aaalso... ;-)
Was mich stutzig macht, ist die Höhe der Hausnummer. Eine Straße mit 2 
Gebäuden dran hat normalerweise keine Hausnummer 29.

Die Straße Im Heidegraben über der Bundesstraße drüber hört bei OSM recht 
bald auf. Bei den kommerziellen Mitbewerbern heißt die Straße aber bis 
mindestens zum Karnevalsverein noch Im Heidegraben.

Ich tippe also ganz stark darauf, dass die Adresse der Karnevalisten von der 
Hauptstraße kommt, die dort dann wohl immer noch Im Heidegraben heißt. 

Dass die Zufahrt dann über einen Frohsinn-Weg (Die Formulierung mit 
Deppenleerzeichen hat dann vielleicht der Praktikant gemacht) führt, ist 
weiter nicht schlimm.


 Frage 1: Was kommt in den Name-Tag? Der offizielle, oder der vom Schild?

Das vom Schild, wenn es denn ein offizielles Schild ist bzw. ein Name der 
gebräuchlich ist.


 Frage 2: Was ist der 2. Name? loc_name? alt_name?

Der kommt an die Straße die ihn trägt. :)

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
Gegen das zunehmende Wissen der Menschheit wäre nichts einzuwenden,
wenn sie dadurch gescheiter würden.
  -  Ernst R. Hauschka (dt. Aphoristiker 1926)


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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

Am 2. Januar 2010 16:32 schrieb Peter Herison pheri...@web.de:

 Frage 1: Was kommt in den Name-Tag? Der offizielle, oder der vom Schild?
 Frage 2: Was ist der 2. Name? loc_name? alt_name?



als erstes würde ich Adresse des Hauses mit der Straße eingeben (nach
KA-Schema, also addr:...), so wie Dir bekannt (also Im Heidegraben). Als
Namen für den Way der Straße würde ich das was auf dem Schild steht
eintragen ( Frohsinn Weg), oder (m.E. hier zu empfehlen) weiterforschen,
ob das Schild evtl. nicht stimmt. Prinzipiell immer so taggen, wie der
Informationsstand ist, raten ist langweilig und bringt nichts.

Gruß Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

 Aaalso... ;-)
 Was mich stutzig macht, ist die Höhe der Hausnummer. Eine Straße mit 2
 Gebäuden dran hat normalerweise keine Hausnummer 29.

Das hat erstmal garnichts zu sagen. Oft werden die Hausnummern schon vor dem 
Spatenstich an die geplanten Grundstücke vergeben. Bei uns ist es auch nicht 
unblich das auf der rechten Seite die Nummern 1 bis 15 stehen, links in 
entgegengesetzer Richtung die 16 bis 30. Manchmal kommts zur 
Grundstücksteilung und es quetscht sich z.B. noch eine 8a dazwischen. Und so 
stehen sich dann Hausnummer 2 und 29 gegenüber. Auch wenn die restlichen 
Grundstücke noch garnicht bebaut oder länsgt verworfen wurden.

Ein anderes Kuriosium was man hier oft findet sind Ortsdurchziehende 
Hausnummerierung. Da fängt der Kirschweg mit 1 bis 20 an, die Haupstraße 
geht mit 21 bis 85 weiter, in der Fräuleinstraße kommt dann 86 bis 124. Und 
so hast auch mal einen Straßenstummel mit 3 Häusern, die aber die Nummern 
134 bis 137 tragen.

Gruß
Mirko 


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Re: [Talk-de] Stassenschild != Adresse

Am 2. Januar 2010 17:59 schrieb Mirko Küster webmas...@ts-eastrail.de:

  Aaalso... ;-)
  Was mich stutzig macht, ist die Höhe der Hausnummer. Eine Straße mit 2
  Gebäuden dran hat normalerweise keine Hausnummer 29.

 Das hat erstmal garnichts zu sagen.



schließlich sind die Nummern, die wir meist Hausnummern nennen, eigentlich
Grundstücksnummern, wobei ein Grundstück (falls sinnvoll) auch mehrere
Nummern bekommen kann. Allerdings ist das nicht bundeseinheitlich geregelt.

Gruß Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

Am 2. Januar 2010 17:06 schrieb qbert biker qbe...@gmx.de:

 Hallo,

 hab heute noch ein wenig mit dem Programm rumgespielt und
 eine alternative Visualisierung gemacht:

 http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2618/bosmcrossing2.png




Sieht schon viel anschaulicher aus, fast perfekt. Richtig schön wäre es
jetzt noch, wenn man auch den Beginn einer Spur drin hätte, also dort, wo
sie noch nicht voll benutzbar ist, der Asphalt sich aber schon verbreitert
(bisher fangen die Spuren sofort bei voll an, ist aber vielleicht auch nur
ein Renderingthema?).

Etwas merkwürdig der südliche Teil der durchgehenden horizontalen Autobahn:
ist da gerade Baustelle, oder warum hat die z.T. nur eine Spur?

Gruß Martin
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[Talk-de] Post- und Telefonkarte

2010-01-02 Thread Sebastian Hohmann

Hallo,
vielleicht interessiert es hier auch einen, nachdem es im Forum schon 
Anklang gefunden hat: http://osmtools.de/poi/

Gruß

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Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

2010-01-02 Thread Nils Heuermann

Hallo Hubert,

 hab heute noch ein wenig mit dem Programm rumgespielt

jetzt hab ichs mir auch angeguckt. Sieht hübsch aus :)

Vom Tagging her ist es sehr simpel und nutzt auch keinen neuen  
Zaubereien. Für tiefgehendere Informationen zu einzelnen Spuren bräuchte  
man dann natürlich eine ganze Latte an Tags am Way...

 http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2618/bosmcrossing2.png

Zu beachten wäre noch, dass wenn eine Spur im normalen Straßenverlauf  
wegfällt, dies i. d. R. die linke ist. Im Beispiel z. B. die von Nordwest  
kommenden 2 Spuren, die sich auf 1 verringern.

Auch dies ist nichts Neues für dich:
Auf Straßen mit Gegenverkehr, also die nicht oneway sind, gibt es z. B.  
die wechselnden 2+1-Straßen oder unterschiedlichste Abbiegespuren an  
Kreuzungen. Da kanns schnell unübersichtlich werden und nur mit lanes=x  
kommt man nicht weiter. Hast du dir dazu weitere Gedanken gemacht?

Viele Grüße,
Nils

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Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

2010-01-02 Thread Nils Heuermann

Am Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:19:08 +0100 hat Martin Koppenhoefer  
dieterdre...@gmail.com geschrieben:

 http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2618/bosmcrossing2.png

 Etwas merkwürdig der südliche Teil der durchgehenden horizontalen  
 Autobahn:
 ist da gerade Baustelle, oder warum hat die z.T. nur eine Spur?

das ist nur eine Bundesstraße (B 239). Nordwestlich der Autobahn ist sie  
vor einigen Jahren ausgebaut worden (trunk, autobahnähnlich mit 2 Spuren  
je Richtung), nach Südosten ist es eine normale 2-spurige Straße (primary,  
ist im Screenshot nicht mehr zu sehen). Daher kommen in dem Kreuz Spuren  
hinzu bzw. fallen weg.

Gruß,
Nils

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Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

2010-01-02 Thread Hartmut Holzgraefe

Martin Koppenhoefer

  Etwas merkwürdig der südliche Teil der durchgehenden horizontalen 
Autobahn: ist da gerade Baustelle, oder warum hat die z.T. nur eine Spur?

passt schon, das obere ist keine Autobahn sondern 'nur'
eine Bundesstraße (B 239) die nur auf der westlichen Seite
autobahnähnlich ausgebaut ist, in östlicher Richtung
verschmalert sich die B239 auf eine Spur je Fahrtrichtung.

-- 
hartmut

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Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

2010-01-02 Thread qbert biker


 Original-Nachricht 
 Datum: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 18:19:08 +0100
 Von: Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 An: Openstreetmap allgemeines in Deutsch talk-de@openstreetmap.org
 Betreff: Re: [Talk-de] Spurgenaue Abbildung, Update

Hallo,

 Sieht schon viel anschaulicher aus, fast perfekt. Richtig schön wäre es
 jetzt noch, wenn man auch den Beginn einer Spur drin hätte, also dort, wo
 sie noch nicht voll benutzbar ist, der Asphalt sich aber schon verbreitert
 (bisher fangen die Spuren sofort bei voll an, ist aber vielleicht auch
 nur
 ein Renderingthema?).

Ist es - ich habe schlicht noch keine Regel dafür implementiert.
Bisher habe ich mich nur mit der automatischen Anpassung von
Y-Verbindungen beschäftigt, also '2 auf 1' oder '1 auf 2'.

Es bräuchte also noch eine Regel für '1 auf 1' mit 
Spuranzahländerung. Mal schaun, wann ich dazu komme.

 Etwas merkwürdig der südliche Teil der durchgehenden horizontalen
 Autobahn:
 ist da gerade Baustelle, oder warum hat die z.T. nur eine Spur?

Das was von rechts unten nach links oben geht ist keine 
Autobahn, sondern eine autobahnähnlich ausgebaute Bundesstrasse,
also in diesem Bereich 'trunk'. Die Spuränderungen sind 
zumindest nach den Satellitenbildern so wie beschrieben, ohne
Baustelle. 

Gruesse Hubert
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Re: [Talk-de] Post- und Telefonkarte