date:20100516

This kind of project is definitely exciting !

However, I still think it is meant to be used by advanced users, and I
would first like to focus on achieving the simple use case of loading
the GPS with some data, without detailed control of the exact area nor
the rendering. (I think it is reasonable to assume that someone is going
to download the complete data for a given state even if he's only
interested in part of it... )

So, I see this tool as another part of the toolkit that supports
people's  generation of new maps, that can then be aggregated on the
user-centric website I am talking about.

Am I wrong to assume this ?

Sami

On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 08:12 -0400, john whelan wrote:
 It might be worth looking at Maperitive, its new, in beta but does
 some very nice things like export bit map and a SVG export command is
 planned.
 
 The really nice thing is though that since it can work with either a
 local file (save an OSM file from JOSM) or on the web linked to the
 OSM database you get a lot more control over what is rendered and how
 it is rendered since the processing is done locally.  So here in
 Canada I have it displaying the street names in French in a bilingual
 region.
 
 If it can be linked to the Garmins then you get control over which
 area you want, and just the area you want, at what level of detail and
 which brand of coffee shops you're most interested in.
 
 Cheerio John
 
 On 15 May 2010 22:13, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Sami Dalouche
 sko...@free.fr wrote:
  What I see is hundreds of small projects or individual
 people creating
 
 
 ...
 
  So, I am currently thinking of starting a complementary
 project to OSM
 
 
 See the problem here? IMHO if you want to put some effort into
 this,
 the best thing you could do would be to try and
 unite/combine/link/organise all those hundreds of small
 projects -
 rather than just start another one.
 
 My experience has been that for part of the world, there is a
 different project somewhere producing the maps you need. For
 example,
 in australia, it's really easy:
 http://www.osmaustralia.org/downloads.php
 
 In the case of Garmin, complication seems to also arise from
 the fact
 that earlier Garmins required special software (like
 Mapsource) to
 load the maps onto the device. Newer ones (like my Oregon 550)
 are
 trivial: simply download a .img file, and copy it into the
 right
 directory.
 
 So, I think there need to be more services of this kind:
 websites that
 regularly (eg, every week or more often) generate .img files
 of a
 given area, in a number of styles (eg, hiking, cycling,
 driving...)
 There is already a central registry of these kinds of sites:
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download
 
 But it could be improved.
 
 Steve
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps

Hi,

OSMAustralia is awesome, and it's exactly the kind of simple
user-centric website that I think is useful for end-users.

However, I am not sure of what are you suggesting me. How do you see
uniting/combining/linking/organizing all those hundreds of small
projects without creating a new fresh repository ?

In any case, we're on the same track here. I do not want to duplicate
any effort, and do not feel like developing the NIH (Not Invented Here)
syndrom. 

Sami

On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 12:13 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote:
 On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Sami Dalouche sko...@free.fr wrote:
  What I see is hundreds of small projects or individual people creating
 
 ...
 
  So, I am currently thinking of starting a complementary project to OSM
 
 See the problem here? IMHO if you want to put some effort into this,
 the best thing you could do would be to try and
 unite/combine/link/organise all those hundreds of small projects -
 rather than just start another one.
 
 My experience has been that for part of the world, there is a
 different project somewhere producing the maps you need. For example,
 in australia, it's really easy:
 http://www.osmaustralia.org/downloads.php
 
 In the case of Garmin, complication seems to also arise from the fact
 that earlier Garmins required special software (like Mapsource) to
 load the maps onto the device. Newer ones (like my Oregon 550) are
 trivial: simply download a .img file, and copy it into the right
 directory.
 
 So, I think there need to be more services of this kind: websites that
 regularly (eg, every week or more often) generate .img files of a
 given area, in a number of styles (eg, hiking, cycling, driving...)
 There is already a central registry of these kinds of sites:
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download
 
 But it could be improved.
 
 Steve



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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps



On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 18:53 -0700, Sam Vekemans wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Sami Dalouche sko...@free.fr wrote:
 
 snip
 
 So, if you already have all the rendering machinery in place,
 I would be
 happy to create the scripts to regularly go fetch the maps you
 render
 and publish them onto some kind of user-centric website.
 That would be awesome !
 
 sami
 
 Yup it would :)  ... yes they are routable, and your talking about 2
 different countries and 3 different states, and cycling / hiking /
 routing / contour (topographical) which cover a big area.
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.41lon=-74.69zoom=7layers=B000FTFT
 (zoom in to where you like and click the Permalink button at the
 bottom right corner)
 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.1481lon=-71.6721zoom=13layers=B000FTF 
is an example of an area that is of interest to me. However, as I prefer 
simplicity of use over complete control, I prefer loading a 4GB SD card with 
the whole area I am possibly interested in (let's say, new england + NY + 
quebec), and then forget about it. 

Are you saying that it is an unreasonable use case ?

 Contour + Hiking map/cycling   - non-routable on MapSource is possable
 hiking + routable (no contours on MapSource) is possable.
 routable + contours on MapSource is not possable   (because of licence
  proprietary software)

When you say possible/impossible on MapSource, do you mean
technically possible/impossible using Garmin's .img format ?

What is the licensing problem that prevents creating routable + contour
maps ?

 
 However, transparent contour IMG files (that i'm making)  can be used
 as a background map (And a contour -only MapSource Installer and/or as
 available IMG tiles., for any map that you want. (is also in progress)
  
I'm sorry I'm not yet familiar with the GPS I just got, but please let
me rephrase that so I am sure to understand :

it is impossible to create a contour + routable + hiking on garmin, but
you are circomventing this limitation by generating an additional
transparent background map that can be overlaid on top of any other map,
including hiking+routable. Is that what you mean ?

Also, I wonder : what is the difference between the contour map that
you talk about and garmin's official topographic maps ? Do the
topographic map contain more information than the contour ?

 Yup, Slowly but surely, this is the goal todo.  In order to get to
 that point, there is a WHOLE LOT of technical process that needs to be
 done.
 

No doubt about that ;) The beauty of software development ;-)

 To talk@ osm:   In other words, I just need to get a .nsis script file
 created using ground truth, (just like makemap has).  I can do that
 myself with an .iss file, but it will stall  is not automatic,  other
 than that were set on the back-end side.   For the front-end.  I have
 it set to edting a txt file.  and following dos command prompts.  But
 thats as technical as i know how.  ( Because it is using outside
 programs, the details i'll post on a blog or something)
 
 Cheers,
 Sam
 
 

Regards,
Sami


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Re: [OSM-talk] is there an open database of places?

Please note that there is a project called Gisgraphy :
http://www.gisgraphy.com/

It already provides importers for Geonames data, as well as a REST API
to access it. 

I am currently creating a java client for this
(http://github.com/samokk/gisgraphy-java-client ), but it is still not
really useable. 

Slowly, but surely :)

sami


On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 22:44 +, Jukka Rahkonen wrote:
 Patrick Aljord patcito at gmail.com writes:
 
  
  Hey all,
 .
  Would it
  make sense to have a seperate DB that would store all places? Is there
  already a project that does that?
 
 http://www.geonames.org/
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Help to import Rio de Janeiro city data to O SM - misaligned shapefiles

2010-05-16 Thread Jukka Rahkonen

Arlindo Pereira openstreetmap at arlindopereira.com writes:

...
 
 Now, moving on to the second question: the largest shapefile
 (Quadras.shp, with the streets and the blocks) has 68 MB, and after
 conversion (and two hours later) it becomes a huge 416 MB .osm file,
 and I can't open it with JOSM (ok, after half an hour it loads up on
 the editor but I can't do anything because the program freezes). How
 can I split it in smaller files for an easier edition?

One possibility is to edit the shapefile with some GIS program like OpenJUMP or
QGis, select features from a smaller area and save that part to a new shapefile.
That way you could also select only some kind of features to import, or cut off
those you do not want at all.


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[OSM-talk] older GPS Tracks not displaying in Potlatch

2010-05-16 Thread Dave F.

Hi

Older gps traces (10 months+) don't appear to be displaying when I click 
on The Icon (G) in Potlatch.

They're still listed in GPS Traces  are PUBLIC.

Is there a time limit for their visibility?

Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Robert Martinez

On 05/16/2010 02:40 PM, Frieder Ferlemann wrote:

 I added a draft for a decision table here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo
 If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well,
 then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit.

 Greetings,
 Frieder

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Hello Frieder,

I have mixed feelings about this table and the wikipage:

* it is a good instrument to guide non-designer people to make better 
decisions (instead of having endless discussions with a crappy logo as a 
result)

* it is NOT an instrument that can claim to be a recipe for the best 
logo, every designer would weight different things and include/exclude 
certain things for valid reasons. I for example would have reservations 
about the equal importance of the Vision parts:
 idea of a map, world-wide, freedom, collaboration,
 versatility, growth, reliability, huge, participation,
 eye-catcher, not user group specific,
 not specific to shop owners + car navigation, internationalism


* it unfolds its full potential if there are many good contributions 
that qualify for a good logo


I'm profoundly sure that the involvement of non-designers in this issue 
should be to vote on something like a top 3 logo list (not be defined 
by: the best three there are but by: 3 good logos)! And the problem 
is: there are way too few submissions that would score high enough in 
your table.
So in my eyes it boils down to one solution to this problem (as well as 
branding and design issues in general):

 There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and 
competence, and I think this table is a bad workaround for that at best.

My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a 
capable design team as soon as you can!
You won't get satisfying results in the long run if there are no such team.
In the meantime I suggest (with grinding teeth) using the table to get a 
result.


Robert Martinez






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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

Hi,

Frieder Ferlemann wrote:
 I added a draft for a decision table here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo
 If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well,
 then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit.

What logo are we talking about? I understand that Robert's submission 
was for an OSM logo, while the page you have now edited is about the 
OSMF logo.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

Robert,

Robert Martinez wrote:
 There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and 
 competence

[...]

 My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a 
 capable design team as soon as you can!

Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, 
or respect for, how the project works? There are no departments with 
authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. 
How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you 
understand so little?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo


On May 16, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Robert,
 
 Robert Martinez wrote:
 There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and 
 competence
 
 [...]
 
 My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a 
 capable design team as soon as you can!
 
 Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, 
 or respect for, how the project works? There are no departments with 
 authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. 
 How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you 
 understand so little?

He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability and 
aesthetic of OSM is a big mess.

My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really want 
another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design, usability or 
aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to making the map call 
C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of looking like Windows 
3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a design czar, it would 
have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data entered, project 
visibility, user happiness...

And yes I know what I wrote on the wiki about JFDI back in 1987 or whatever. 
But we have these walls that we didn't have then. If you want to get a sweeping 
design done it will take a herculean effort because there's so much fight on 
this list on even whether good design is a good thing, or whether more users is 
a good thing, or you have to write everything the 'right' way... and you, 
Frederik jump on the guy because he doesn't know much about the project? That's 
actually a pretty good thing. He doesn't know he has to be friends with Tom to 
get something deployed, he doesn't know he'll have to fight Matt being 
defensive about his logo, he doesn't know all the political shit that is 
getting in the way of moving forward in a meaningful way.

If he did know all this, I suspect he would go and do something useful with his 
life instead of wasting it here. It's not even that any of the above is bad - 
it's great that the map call is now constant memory or whatever (thanks to 
matt?), it's awesome that Tom is guardian to a set of stable servers and he 
holds that key so judiciously, but we have to realise too what barriers this 
throws up to innovation, and try and get out of the way when necessary.

So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten old and 
crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads screwed on. Nobody 
means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of the list sometimes and 
people don't like change. If you want some real fun go read the legal list 
archives and look how long it takes to make anything happen.

And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze is kicking 
our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze writing essays on why 
design is bad and we don't need new users.

Oh, I guess I do want this fight again.

Yours c.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclopath wiki bicycle map

2010-05-16 Thread Reid Priedhorsky

Steve Bennett wrote:
 
 On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:34 AM, Reid Priedhorsky r...@umn.edu wrote:
 Anyway, I mostly wanted to say hi and let you all know we are here. If
 you have any questions, ask and I will reply here on the list.
 
 Hi Reid. Just wondering if/when this project will expand outside
 Minnesota? Also, and I haven't really been following this thread, how
 does it integrate with OSM, and could it integrate better? Seems a
 pity to collect information twice...

Hi Steve,

Short answer, we have active plans to expand and should have some news 
within the next few weeks. The model we are following is the Craigslist 
island model, i.e. focusing on adding metro areas and regions one by 
one (as opposed to expanding in a big circle from Minneapolis).

Currently, we do not integrate with OSM at all, and I agree with you. In 
terms of data sharing OSM to Cyclopath, we are leery of the OSM 
licensing mess and hesitate to get involved. The other way round would 
work fine (a previous poster gave our data license as CC, but actually 
we have broad freedom to share the data under general openness goals).

I'd also be interested in how we might move towards sharing tool chains 
and things. I believe the key issues here might be data complexity (we 
have a lot more types of features and relationships than just ways) and 
all the fiddly little choices that are made differently between two 
independent projects.

Reid

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Robert Martinez

On 05/16/2010 06:35 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Robert,

 Robert Martinez wrote:
 There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and 
 competence

 [...]

 My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find 
 a capable design team as soon as you can!

 Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge 
 of, or respect for, how the project works? 

Did I really offend you by assuming that there are certain aspects of 
the project that get decided not by pure democracy?
Aren't there any people good at special fields like handling tile 
rendering, or traffic balancing or editor development etc.?
I must admit I'm not an active contributor in any of those kinds - but I 
must say I'm a bit offended myself that you assume I know nothing about 
the project and act respectless, just because I think it is a good 
Idea to have some people that are specialized in design.

I'm offering a contribution after all! Please respect that, too.


 There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; 
 there is no project management. How can you even think about designing 
 a logo for a project of which you understand so little?


To be honest: my first impression of the current logo drove me to the 
guess that there is no design team, so that's not big news for me.
(Btw: if you read my initial mail - why didn't you make that clear earlier?)

You seem to be involved enough to help me out here:

In case there really IS NO hierarchy whatsoever other than Steve Coast 
and the rest - there is no problem!
If the community should decide: fine! I already agreed on using the 
logo-rating-table (if there really is no better solution).
Or maybe I can even come to Girona, too, and share my thoughts there 
(but that's not the complete community that decides and it is not sure I 
can get there)

But If there IS actually a decision hierarchy - who is deciding:
when (or if) to announce a logo contest?
who decides on the guidelines?
who decides when there are enough submissions?
who is the jury (mailing list - wiki - a web-poll - voting in Girona - ...)?

Always glad to hear other voices on the issue, too.


Bye
Robert Martinez



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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Frieder Ferlemann

Hi Frederik,

Am 16.05.2010 18:33, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 I added a draft for a decision table here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo
 If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well,
 then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit.
 
 What logo are we talking about? I understand that Robert's submission 
 was for an OSM logo, while the page you have now edited is about the 
 OSMF logo.

I meant to contribute to Robert's submission for an OSM logo.
The link given in: 
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-May/050188.html
on my first uneducated view seemed to show relevant context,
so I added the table there. Also it seemed polite because
I picked up the items from the user Kscahefer.

I'll happily move it elsewhere. If need arises I also have a
very capable /dev/null here. Seems to take data at a rate
of more than 1 GB/sec and is not full yet.

Kidding aside I like the idea of a wiki because (opposed to
mail or forums) it tends to focus discussion because
technically there is a single document being worked on.
(there are of course numerous examples that using
a wiki is no guarantee for consensus)


Robert Martinez wrote:
 I for example would have reservations about the equal
 importance of the Vision parts: [..]

I have too. Nor are the criteria likely complete
(or orthogonal).

I have no stakes in the decision other than
that it should be fair and does not absorb
much unneeded voluntary work.

Greetings,
Frieder

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps

2010-05-16 Thread Lambertus

On 05/16/2010 01:57 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
 Yes, such a project would be useful. I suggest you get in contact with
 some of the people already running something similar, e.g.:

  http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php

 That project has selectable maps, a mapsource installer and more.
 Presumably it could use some programming help to perhaps make custom
 maps.


I would like that to happen (users choosing their own product id, add 
contours, prefer cycling or car etc) but the server is already 
overloaded and there is just no chance that more functionality could be 
added. So, that's left to others (and there are plenty of others already).

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Kai Krueger


He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability
and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess.

My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really
want another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design,
usability or aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to
making the map call C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of
looking like Windows 3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a
design czar, it would have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data
entered, project visibility, user happiness...

Perhaps I am too much of a geek my self, but I some how can't see changing a
logo or design will get us masses of new users. Not with all the other
usability issues still present.  At least I can't remember the last time I
though: Oh, this is a really amazing project! The best thing ever. But
given the logo isn't quite ideal, I am not going to contribute to the
project That doesn't mean that changing the logo might not be a bad
idea or that the current logo is perfect. I just don't think that the _logo_
is a particularly pressing matter and thus does have the time to go through
a larger (and admittedly slow and painful) community process to see what the
best solution is and if it is worth giving up the current logo and loosing
the associated corporate branding


And yes I know what I wrote on the wiki about JFDI back in 1987 or
whatever. But we have these walls that we didn't have then. If you want to
get a sweeping design done it will take a herculean effort because there's
so much fight on this list on even whether good design is a good thing, or
whether more users is a good thing, or you have to write everything the
'right' way... and you, Frederik jump on the guy because he doesn't know
much about the project? That's actually a pretty good thing. He doesn't
know he has to be friends with Tom to get something deployed, he doesn't
know he'll have to fight Matt being defensive about his logo, he doesn't
know all the political shit that is getting in the way of moving forward in
a meaningful way.

I would suggest to anyone who does care about usability (and I hope people
do), to look at the wiki. Imho the front page still has a reasonable clean
design and appropriate amount of information, but already the next link down
it rapidly degrades in quality to not really being usable any more.

For example I would guess one of the first links a new user would click on
is the Beginners Guide, probably in the expectation to find out what the
project is about, what they can do with it, why they personally would
benefit from the project and how they can then contribute back. However,
what they are presented on the English version is let's say less than
ideal. Neither does it explain the project as a whole particularly well,
nor does it link to all the wonderful wealth of resources available that
make OSM a great ecosystem and give plentiful reasons to put in the effort
to overcome the learning curve inherent in OSM. In fact it doesn't even
really achieve the one thing it does try to do which is to give an easy
introduction to editing in OSM in any way a newbie would feel comfortable
with. On top its design is I think fair to say even worse than that of the
logo or the front page. (without wanting to offend the people who have
contributed to the beginners guide so far). Other pages linked from the main
wiki not addressing power mappers aren't often any better.

There, we really could use some great designers, marketing and PR folk,
journalists or who ever else feels up to the task of presenting OSM to the
newbie in an appealing and accurate way to make sure they understand how the
project works and how they can contribute. 

And the best thing is, it is a wiki! So you don't need to be friends with
TomH to get it deployed, or argue with Matt about the logo, or RichardF
about what the best language is to write Potlatch in or... You can just do
it and you are much more likely to get the gratitude of all if you do.
(Well, perhaps you need to be friends with Grant if things get out of hand
to make sure he locks down the wiki page at the right time ;-)) But I really
doubt there will be a big edit war on the wiki given the current state of
affairs with respect to our beginners documentation! 

 So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten old
 and crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads screwed on.
 Nobody means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of the list
 sometimes and people don't like change. If you want some real fun go read
 the legal list archives and look how long it takes to make anything
 happen.

Well perhaps a large crowd sourced project isn't the best platform if you
want revolutionary change. If there isn't an absolute necessity for a step
change, you are best off with small incremental changes in the right
direction.  (Just like you don't go into a country

Re: [OSM-talk] older GPS Tracks not displaying in Potlatch

2010-05-16 Thread Richard Fairhurst


Dave F. wrote:
 Older gps traces (10 months+) don't appear to be displaying when I 
 click on The Icon (G) in Potlatch.
 
 They're still listed in GPS Traces  are PUBLIC.
 
 Is there a time limit for their visibility?

Potlatch pulls them down 10k (IIRC) at once to avoid boggling the server too
much.

If you click the icon again (without having panned away) it'll load the next
10k, and so on and so forth.

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/older-GPS-Tracks-not-displaying-in-Potlatch-tp5061899p5062630.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

Steve,

SteveC wrote:
 He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design,
 usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess.
 
 My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it

You want someone to fix the OSM design and usability whose main area of 
competence seems to be making aesthetically pleasing logos? Who would 
not hesitate to use a logo for OSM that suggests to the world that the 
essence of OSM is collecting POIs, just because it works better as a 
logo (and perhaps because he couldn't be bothered to find out exactly 
what OSM is about)?

 He doesn't know he has to be friends
 with Tom to get something deployed, he doesn't know he'll have to
 fight Matt being defensive about his logo, he doesn't know all the
 political shit that is getting in the way of moving forward in a
 meaningful way.

Oh right, and the proper way to deal with a situation like this is to 
install a czar so that in the future, anyone who wants to get 
something going does not only have to jump through all the hoops you 
mention but *additionally* has to be friends with the design czar?

 If he did know all this, I suspect he would go and do something
 useful with his life instead of wasting it here. 

Let's not blow this out of proportion. I know that redesigning the OSM 
start page, and possibly anything else after that, has been your pet 
peeve for the last I don't know how many years. But this thread, until 
now, was *not* about redesigning the OSM start page, or about usability, 
or a design review, or whatever.

This is about someone parachuting in, designing a logo with *no* heart, 
*no* soul, *no* character, that does not in the least convey what OSM is 
about, that looks like it comes straight from a clip-art collection 
(section geo things), and having the chutzpah to tell us he had 
somehow reduced the logo to the essence.

If the same methodology was to be applied to redesigning the project 
then why not change our main page to look like that of Twitter, after 
all Twitter is a big UI success and their page sure works as a 
webpage. Never mind that we're trying to do different things here.

 So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten
 old and crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads
 screwed on. Nobody means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of
 the list sometimes and people don't like change. 

I'm sure there are people on this list who don't like change; 
personally, I would appreciate a better logo. This logo, however, is not 
better, and that's all I have said.

About your things have gotten old an crusty - do you remember how many 
million times in the API 0.3 or 0.4 days we had some GIS acolyte 
parachuting in and treating us like idiots because we weren't using 
PostGIS but MySQL instead? Did we welcome them with open arms and say 
Hallelujah, finally someone who brings change? - No, we said 
Implement it and we'll consider. We finally did get rid of MySQL but, 
as far as I remember, it was not the work of one of these people who, 
upon finding out that it perhaps was not so easy as they first thought, 
went on to be the messiah to someone else.

 And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze
 is kicking our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze
 writing essays on why design is bad and we don't need new users.
 
 Oh, I guess I do want this fight again.

Then do me a favour and pick what you want to fight about. I see four 
interwoven messages here:

1. Robert's suggestion for a new logo. I do not like it. You didn't even 
say whether you like it or not. Is this the fight you want, then tell us 
why you think his logo is better than the one we have.

2. Your desire to renovate the OSM user interface, or perhaps more: The 
OSM user experience altogether. My personal take on this is that yes, we 
could do a lot to improve it, but we haven't (yet) got the right people 
to do it. They will eventually come and find a way to evolve things, 
rather than just dumping everything we have and having some guru make it 
better. - You have tried to pioneer this cause a number of times, but 
you more often than not did it in a clumsy fashion, stepping on the toes 
of as many people as possible in the process, and then wondering why you 
caught flak. I'm sure this will sooner or later be addressed by a team 
of level-headed people who do their work well and easily manage to 
convince others that it is good, rather than some ex-cathedra czar 
decision which is not to be questioned.

3. A good user interface, obviously, must be based on knowing what one 
wants to achieve. I can see a possible fight here as well; my position 
has always been that growth for growth's sake may harm the project and 
we are right to take it slow. A slick UI is fine but if we attract 
people who don't possess the intellectual capacity and patience to be a 
working member of this community, we could just as well buy data from 
somewhere. Is this

Re: [OSM-talk] new logo


On May 16, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Kai Krueger wrote:

 
 He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability
 and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess.
 
 My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really
 want another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design,
 usability or aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to
 making the map call C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of
 looking like Windows 3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a
 design czar, it would have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data
 entered, project visibility, user happiness...
 
 Perhaps I am too much of a geek my self, but I some how can't see changing a
 logo or design will get us masses of new users.

It helps to read what I wrote: the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a 
big mess. I didn't just say the design. That's just symptomatic.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)

Hi,

Kai Krueger wrote:
 There, we really could use some great designers, marketing and PR folk,
 journalists or who ever else feels up to the task of presenting OSM to the
 newbie in an appealing and accurate way to make sure they understand how the
 project works and how they can contribute. 
 
 And the best thing is, it is a wiki! So you don't need to be friends with
 TomH to get it deployed, or argue with Matt about the logo, or RichardF
 about what the best language is to write Potlatch in or... You can just do
 it and you are much more likely to get the gratitude of all if you do.

I think there's a problem - the gratitude. I think that people, at least 
if they have a reasonably sized ego, are more likely to embark on 
something like complete front page re-design (let's make it a project, 
let's have a project manager, let's do it big, let's give it a name, and 
later everone says that YOU were the visionary who pulled it off) than a 
meagre editing of Wiki pages.

Not only are you not placed on a pedestal when you do lots of work on 
the Wiki; there may even be others who ruin all your good work by adding 
their own ;-)

Maybe we could find a way to make contributing to the Wiki a bit more 
interesting to people with ego. Have lists of top contributors (perhaps 
per language) and number of edits in a given timeframe, just as we have 
for API changes. Give them stars and badges and stuff. I'm sure 
Wikipedia has something we can learn from in this respect?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)

2010-05-16 Thread jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 for API changes. Give them stars and badges and stuff. I'm sure
 Wikipedia has something we can learn from in this respect?


Great Idea,
here is my suggestion
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:H4ck3rm1k3/OSMBarnStarIdea

I think you deserve one.!
let me look up the cheesy text :

[image: OSMBarnStarProposal001.png]

For many contributions to OSM and tireless help and contributions, I present
you with this Opensteetmap Barnstar. Considering how much work and code an
data you contribute, you deserve it!

James Michael DuPont 23:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

heheheh,
mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)

2010-05-16 Thread Gregory

Outdated and not used for a while...
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Awards

On 16 May 2010 22:02, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com 
jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:





 On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.orgwrote:

 for API changes. Give them stars and badges and stuff. I'm sure
 Wikipedia has something we can learn from in this respect?


 Great Idea,
 here is my suggestion
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:H4ck3rm1k3/OSMBarnStarIdea

 I think you deserve one.!
 let me look up the cheesy text :

 [image: OSMBarnStarProposal001.png]

 For many contributions to OSM and tireless help and contributions, I
 present you with this Opensteetmap Barnstar. Considering how much work and
 code an data you contribute, you deserve it!
 
 James Michael DuPont 23:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

 heheheh,
 mike



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Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo


On May 16, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 About your things have gotten old an crusty - do you remember how many 
 million times in the API 0.3 or 0.4 days we had some GIS acolyte parachuting 
 in and treating us like idiots because we weren't using PostGIS but MySQL 
 instead? Did we welcome them with open arms and say Hallelujah, finally 
 someone who brings change? - No, we said Implement it and we'll consider. 
 We finally did get rid of MySQL but, as far as I remember, it was not the 
 work of one of these people who, upon finding out that it perhaps was not so 
 easy as they first thought, went on to be the messiah to someone else.

There are major differences, you can't conflate the two.

* This guy actually did something, not just waffle about PostGIS
* Our 'consideration' of his work is 'you arent part of the project' which is 
not actually a logical argument. Some of your personal opinions on whether it 
looks like clipart are actually more useful.
* People waffled about PostGIS and ontologies because it's what they were 
taught to do in GIS, not because they had valid reasons that the tradeoffs were 
better or something once you took in to account speed or community uptake.

I'll go back to what I said ages ago about law. There are just some domains 
that you can't expect that your CompSci knowledge will make you ready for. You 
might read a Copyright law and be clueless about case law in the same way that 
you're welcome to read a Tufte book, and still not have a clue how to make a 
site usable. It takes a long, long time to figure this stuff out.

I don't think you can point to a single FLOSS project which did 'design by 
committee' well? That's why I say we need a czar. That's why I think 
Shuttleworth is right to ignore people and push on with a design vision, why 
Ive works at Apple. You can't get a wholistic experience by just copying the 
shiny buttons and drop shadows off the mac UI. It needs a one-minded driving 
push to make something like that work.

I think we should probably vote that person in. But sitting around saying it 
looks like clipart gets us utterly nowhere. All that does is piss the guy off, 
and he clearly knows a lot more design than you or I do, or are likely to know. 
We should welcome him, say cool - here are the tools, you show us the way, but 
we have some concerns a,b,c,d...x. And you have to accept that not all of your 
concerns are going to be fixed, just like with the license process. Because 
design by committee just doesn't work. But instead, he gets told it's just 
crappy clip art and he hasn't paid his respects by learning `git` yet to be 
considered part of the community. Come on. That's totally bonkers. Why in their 
right mind would anyone good at design want to help us?

 And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze
 is kicking our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze
 writing essays on why design is bad and we don't need new users.
 Oh, I guess I do want this fight again.
 
 Then do me a favour and pick what you want to fight about. I see four 
 interwoven messages here:
 
 1. Robert's suggestion for a new logo. I do not like it. You didn't even say 
 whether you like it or not. Is this the fight you want, then tell us why you 
 think his logo is better than the one we have.

First, I don't want best to be the enemy of the good or better. The current 
logo is ok, it can be improved as has been pointed out. Is anyone screaming to 
get a change pushed through with the current logo? No. Nobody is doing that. 
Instead you do have this guy. Therefore, a better logo now is more useful than 
a perfect logo in 2014.

As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference material 
or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the current logo:

* has too many colours
* doesn't scale
* is too busy
* isn't brandable to a colour scheme

This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts.

Now, this guy comes along and wants to make things better - cool! Let him have 
at it I say, because it's not like we need to stick with his logo if we choose 
forever, is it? It's not like we can't ask him to come back with a bunch of 
alternative designs, is it?

I would love to avoid starting a sub-committee to look at design and have a 
bunch of morons attack it with pot shots like what the LWG has had to wade 
through for 2 years before anything happens. Crowd sourced open projects are 
fantastic at some things, but UI and design just isn't one of them. I say we 
just recognise that, and give someone a chance to work on it.

 2. Your desire to renovate the OSM user interface, or perhaps more: The OSM 
 user experience altogether. My personal take on this is that yes, we could do 
 a lot to improve it, but we haven't (yet) got the right people to do it. They 
 will eventually come and find a way to evolve things, rather than just 
 dumping everything we have and having some guru make it better. -

Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)


On May 16, 2010, at 2:42 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Kai Krueger wrote:
 There, we really could use some great designers, marketing and PR folk,
 journalists or who ever else feels up to the task of presenting OSM to the
 newbie in an appealing and accurate way to make sure they understand how the
 project works and how they can contribute. 
 
 And the best thing is, it is a wiki! So you don't need to be friends with
 TomH to get it deployed, or argue with Matt about the logo, or RichardF
 about what the best language is to write Potlatch in or... You can just do
 it and you are much more likely to get the gratitude of all if you do.
 
 I think there's a problem - the gratitude. I think that people, at least 
 if they have a reasonably sized ego, are more likely to embark on 
 something like complete front page re-design (let's make it a project, 
 let's have a project manager, let's do it big, let's give it a name, and 
 later everone says that YOU were the visionary who pulled it off) than a 
 meagre editing of Wiki pages.

Not really - it's that small changes are not going to get very far. You're not 
going to make the buttons shiny and increase usability, or move a paragraph to 
the left not right or something.

OSM's design is stuck at or near a local optimum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_optimum

Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that you've 
already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so obvious and easy to 
do that I've been asked multiple times why on Earth we haven't done it.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions

Hi,

SteveC wrote:
 Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that
 you've already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so
 obvious and easy to do that I've been asked multiple times why on
 Earth we haven't done it.

As you surely have been told already, a feedback tab needs people to 
process the feedback otherwise it will just annoy everyone. Has a 
solution to this been proposed?

The last time you suggested a feedback tab was by hooking up OSM to 
some third-party service where people would have been able to add 
comments using a completely different user interface. I didn't think 
that was a good idea, and if my voice was instrumental in shooting 
down that idea then I am awed by my own power.

I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people add 
feedback would be difficult to do (now that TomH has spam under 
control). I would be the last person to oppose it, provided that it is 
halfway clear what happens with the stuff people write on it. After all 
we don't want to set up a corporate customer service department full of 
drones that send preformatted text messages back to everyone, or do we?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions

See this is what I'm talking about. Why not instead of listing your reasons why 
it would be impossible, why don't you say I don't know steve, it might work, 
let's try it for a week and see what happens?

If you say that you will be my hero, I'll send you a I love you bean and give 
you a big kiss on stage at SOTM.

How about it?

Yours c.

Steve

On May 16, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Hi,
 
 SteveC wrote:
 Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that
 you've already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so
 obvious and easy to do that I've been asked multiple times why on
 Earth we haven't done it.
 
 As you surely have been told already, a feedback tab needs people to process 
 the feedback otherwise it will just annoy everyone. Has a solution to this 
 been proposed?
 
 The last time you suggested a feedback tab was by hooking up OSM to some 
 third-party service where people would have been able to add comments using a 
 completely different user interface. I didn't think that was a good idea, and 
 if my voice was instrumental in shooting down that idea then I am awed by 
 my own power.
 
 I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people add 
 feedback would be difficult to do (now that TomH has spam under control). I 
 would be the last person to oppose it, provided that it is halfway clear what 
 happens with the stuff people write on it. After all we don't want to set up 
 a corporate customer service department full of drones that send preformatted 
 text messages back to everyone, or do we?
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 -- 
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo


On May 16, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Time for a data model czar and throw away all this backward looking shit of 
 tagging freedom?

Well if you think about it Frederik, I was the data model czar.

 You mean that to keep pace with Waze and Google Map Maker, we should simply 
 drop the libertarian bullshit and become just another company with top-down 
 decision making and a marketing department that does whatever seems best? 
 Just because others manage abuse their community by taking their work and 
 giving them nothing in return, save perhaps for a few stars in a ranking 
 list, we should try to pull off the same?

For fscks sake Frederik, I didn't say anything about dropping any of our good 
stuff like community or data model or open sourceness.

It's really simple - they have a nicer website, they have nicer tools, they 
have more users than we do (3 times as many) in a fraction of the time and 
they're far, far better at creating and managing a community of users that 
we're only starting to get to grips with. All you do is scare them away.

 And I
 sense you're pushing against it all because of your idea of what a
 community should look like, and it's just going to be a cul-de-sac if
 we insist on all this stuff because the people who want to contribute
 these days are a whole different crowd that people like waze are much
 better at helping. And it should be _us_ at the forefront not them!
 
 To me, someone contributing to TomTom MapShare or Waze or Google Map Maker or 
 any other we-own-all-your-work project is just a cow being milked. 
 Old-fashioned world view maybe, but this is the one point were personally I 
 am totally, absolutely unwilling to move. It is absolutely clear to me that 
 there's a giant gap between what we are doing and what they are doing. We 
 treat our community with respect because we're in this together; they do it 
 for their, or their shareholders', monetary gain. For them, it is a fucking 
 *job*. I am not even willing to compare.

Did I say anywhere 'treat them like a cow' or anything like that? For the 4th 
time, I like waze's design and a bunch of stuff they've done. That doesn't mean 
I like closed data, or something, or that they're perfect.

Here's the important bit:

You have to get it in to your head Frederik that my mum (to pick an example) 
wants to contribute to OSM, and she doesn't want to jump through all the hoops 
you did to do so. She wants to facebook friend us. She wants to be appreciated 
on twitter. She wants a simple feedback button. Learning JOSM isn't an option. 
Learning potlatch isn't. Maybe, maybe, learning mapzen POI editor is. Probably 
not even something like mapmaker.

And all you can say is fuck off we don't want you is *incredibly* backward, 
and holding back the project.

 (surely this thread is that introduction) before he can have an
 opinion about the logo. And frankly, like balancing a lawyers opinion
 vs. your legal opinion and a designers opinion vs your clipart
 comments, I'm going to pick the lawyer and the designer. For someone
 so bright why you can't see your own limitations is baffling to me.
 
 As I tried to explain above, his work did not meet what I would expect from a 
 professional designer. I am speaking as one - tiny - part of this designer's 
 client, OSM.

With a - big - mouth.

 Speaking of being baffled, I am slightly surprised that you seem to be so 
 happy with this mediocre logo.

I'm not - but it is better than what we have now. And like I said, I'm more 
interested in fixing this fucked up process where whenever someone tries 
something a small band don't like, they get shat all over.

Yours c.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Robert Martinez

On 05/17/2010 12:51 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Steve,

 SteveC wrote:

 I think we should probably vote that person in. But sitting around
 saying it looks like clipart gets us utterly nowhere. All that does
 is piss the guy off, and he clearly knows a lot more design than you
 or I do, or are likely to know. We should welcome him, say cool -
 here are the tools, you show us the way, but we have some concerns
 a,b,c,d...x. And you have to accept that not all of your concerns are
 going to be fixed, just like with the license process. Because design
 by committee just doesn't work. But instead, he gets told it's just
 crappy clip art and he hasn't paid his respects by learning `git` yet
 to be considered part of the community. Come on. That's totally
 bonkers.
  
 Now I don't know the background of this. Maybe someone has talked to him
 and told him we desperately needed a new logo or so. Maybe that someone
 has worked with Robert in the past and knows he's a good designer. I
 have only judged what he has submitted to the list, and from this I
 cannot say that he cleary knows a lot more design than you or I. I
 think the logo is executed well enough, i.e. he clearly knows his
 Inkscape or whatever, but to me a good design process would also mean to
 - and these are Robert's words - capture the essence and convey it.
 And this is precisely what the logo does not do.

 Feedback in this direction came from me and others, and the replies that
 Robert had to offer were (1) the current logo isn't any better, and (2)
 it cannot be done because the space is limited in such a small logo.

 But this is *exactly* why I (and probably most other people) suck at
 creating logos or icons - it is very difficult to capture the essence of
 something in so small a space. And this is exactly what I would expect
 from a good designer - make an OSM logo which immediately communicates
 that here's people making a map. Now that would be good.


 Now, this guy comes along and wants to make things better - cool! Let
 him have at it I say, because it's not like we need to stick with his
 logo if we choose forever, is it? It's not like we can't ask him to
 come back with a bunch of alternative designs, is it?
  
 Sure. It was only after his insistence, and his call for better
 management, that I concluded that he seems to know little of OSM. Before
 that, I said quite simply and clearly that I do not like his design
 because it makes us look like a POI collecting project. I'm happy for
 him to take this feedback, which wasn't mine alone, and work on a bunch
 of alternative designs.


 I catch flak because I'm frank,
  
 No, you have tried to use this justification many times before and it
 has been explained to you that it is possible to be frank without
 alienating people. You may be frank, but you display very little
 sensibility to people's feelings. For example, the first time you came
 up with new designs for the front page was when you had CloudMade
 designers make mockups. Did you really think that people in a free and
 open project would like to have their front page designed that way? The
 designs could have been the best designs in the world, they would not
 have been accepted. Sometimes messages need to be wrapped properly, and
 being unwilling to use respect and politeness means that many messages
 will be discarded even if they carry some truth.


 When Steve Jobs went back to apple one of the first things he did was
 throw away all the stuff that was in the campus museum. Old macs,
 Apple ]['s and all that.
  
 I have difficulties in seeing how Steve Jobs and Apple fit in here. I
 think Apple sucks but I don't think it is relevant. I don't believe in
 gurus either.


 Because you can't invent the future by
 looking at the past. Of all the amazing achievements OSM has made,
 none is as important as the ones to come. If you don't believe that,
 then there's not a lot of point being here because that would mean
 we're a declining project, and therefore there are better things to
 do elsewhere.
  
 Indeed you sound like you've listened too much to charismatic gurus. You
 sound like you're trying to create meaningful quotes for posterity. You
 are not arguing with me, you are talking to the camera. Think about what
 you're saying! Just because physics has interesting things in store for
 the future doesn't mean that anyone learning the theory of relativity is
 looking backwards and has no place in physics.


 And I'm telling you, you're looking backward, and you
 want a process, and a working group so that in about 2 years someone
 might improve the site design.
  
 No, I'm happy for someone to create a design on their own. Of course it
 would make sense to talk about the goals first so that there's no
 disappointment later. I think you are right in saying that design cannot
 be done by a committee, but the designers sure should talk to their
 clients before they start, no?

Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Richard Weait

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Robert Martinez m...@mray.de wrote:
 Hello OpenStreetMappers,


 I would love to offer a special contribution to the project: a new logo!
 Here is my blogpost: http://freegital.de/osm-logo-proposal
 Here is the presentation:
 http://mray.de/sites/default/files/logoproposal_big.html

Dear Robert,

I really like the logo.  I'm just one voice of course.

I don't agree with Paul's characterization of clip art. Clip art
leaves a negative connotation for me.  Paul's suggestion of a golf
course interests me, as I have a couple of golf-map related domain
names.  So with a couple of minor[1] tweaks, I think you have a super
logo for my osm-related interest.

For an OSM or OSMF logo, I've been following this thread with interest.

I think Matt's logo, the current OSM logo, is miles better than
anything else proposed at the time.  Like your offering, Matt
contributed a lot of thought, time and expertise in creating and
donating a logo.  It has served us well and as mentioned earlier in
this thread, Has anybody left the project because of the logo?

Of course I still can't leave well enough alone, so how about:
Rather than a flag, marking a point on a grid, how about a pen, or
hand wielding a pen, drawing a road?
On the left, a field of 1s and 0s for the data, and on the right the
aforementioned road as part of a junction?[2]

Clearly inspired and informed by Matt's magnifying glass revealing the
underlying data, but showing instead the progression from data to
information, and the hand of the contributor (or their pen).[3]

[1] that is to say, I have no clue, I'm not a graphic artist, but I
feel like I have to put my fingerprints on this.
[2] /Ibid./
[3] /Ibid./

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread M∡rtin Koppenhoefer

2010/5/16 SteveC st...@asklater.com:
 As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference 
 material or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the 
 current logo:

 * has too many colours
 * doesn't scale
 * is too busy
 * isn't brandable to a colour scheme

 This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts.


while this is all true, it doesn't imply that to design a new logo we
must completely throw the current design away. I think that the old
logo is quite good at pointing out what OSM is about (for a part,
sparing out the collaborative aspect, but still the data and not map
or poi-aspect is important). I would expect from a new logo to be
1 individual and unique
2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo
3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM
4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo (ideally the
new logo would be some progress of the old one)

the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with OSM.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

2010-05-16 Thread Roy Wallace

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:47 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would expect from a new logo to be

 1 individual and unique
 2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo
 3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM
 4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo

 the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with 
 OSM.

Good points. Though personally, I believe 2 (technical/graphical) is
by far the most important, where that includes the requirement that it
look good.

4 (continuity) is unnecessary, IMHO, and 1 (uniqueness) is usually not
a big issue. 3 (story-telling) can be very difficult - but please
remember that this shouldn't be interpreted literally - i.e.
symbolizing the idea of OSM does NOT mean that there HAS to be 1's
and 0's, AND a map, AND the idea of a community, AND the idea of
freedom, etc etc.

Look at the Nike logo. Or the ubuntu logo... both very simple, and
effective because they each try to capture only one single *feeling*
that somehow represents each company.

I really like Robert's contribution. But I guess I understand, now,
that some people think it falls short on story-telling. Perhaps that
is useful feedback, that designers can take away from this. I think
it's only a matter of time before someone proposes a design that nails
(at least) those four criteria simultaneously.

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nieuwe gebruikers moeten zich registreren voor ODbL (naast CC-BY-SA)

2010-05-16 Thread Lambertus

Op het forum loopt een soort van poll over deze kwestie, misschien 
halverwege volgende week de stand opmaken? Wie wil kan nog even zijn 
voorkeur bekend maken...


http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=6959


On 05/13/2010 06:31 PM, Roeland Douma wrote:

Zijn er plannen hoe dat te doen?
Is het misschien iets om de top 20 editors in NL te nemen en er vanuit te gaan
dat ze niet akkoord gaan en dan uit te rekenen wat er nog van NL overblijft?
(om het even lokaal te houden)

Soort worst case scenario.

Of neem een ander scenario, zeg dat 5% nee zegt. wat blijft er dan nog over?

Lijkt me toch redelijk relevant om dat soort getallen een beetje te hebben.

Groet,
--Roeland

On Thursday 13 May 2010 01:12:24 Henk Hoff wrote:
   

Daar komt het in grote lijnen wel op neer.

Gr,
Henk

Op 13 mei 2010 00:17 schreef Roeland Doumau...@rullzer.com  het volgende:
 

Om toch weer even dwars te liggen.
Wat gebeurt er als ik weiger mijn data onder de ODbL vrij te geven?
Worden dan
al mijn edits (en edits door mensen van de data na mij) niet meegenomen?

Groet,
--Roeland

On Wednesday 12 May 2010 17:13:59 Henk Hoff wrote:
   

Ter info.

Er is in de afgelopen tijd uitgebreid gesproken over een wijziging van
de licentie voor OpenStreetMap. Vandaag is de eerste stap gezet in de
daadwerkelijke overgang.

Vanaf vandaag moeten *gebruikers die een account aanmaken* op
www.openstreetmap.org akkoord gaan met publicatie op basis van de Open
Database Licentie (ODbL), naast dat deze data ook nog onder CC-BY-SA
vrijgegeven kan worden. Dit is een eerste stap in de overgang van de
OSM-dataset van CC-BY-SA naar ODbL.

De bestaande gebruikers krijgen vanaf een nog te bepalen tijdstip de
 

vraag

   

of zij akkoord gaan met de Contributor Terms (
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms) en dat zij
 

hun

   

bestaande bijdragen daar ook onder willen vrijgeven. Wil je dit moment
absoluut niet missen, zorg er voor dat je bij de OSM-account een
werkend e-mailadres hebt geregistreerd.

De datum waarop de dataset daadwerkelijk onder de ODbL wordt
vrijgegeven
 

is

   

nog niet vastgesteld. Dit zal deels afhankelijk van de datum waarop de
bestaande gebruikers benaderd gaat worden.


Mvg,
Henk Hoff
OSM Foundation
 

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Re: [talk-au] New gateway motorway bridge duplication

2010-05-16 Thread Stephen Hope

A couple of things about the bridge.

First, even though it was officially opened today, it doesn't have
traffic on it until Monday week (24th). Then they do changes to the
approaches, and a bit later shut the old bridge down for six months
for refurbishment.  We'll have to keep changing things here until
December.

Second, on Thursday they had a pre-opening ceremony, with assorted
politicians and reporters being pretty much the only people there, to
welcome google to the bridge.  A google streetview car was the first
to cross the bridge (not counting workers, I guess).  So once the
footage is processed, and streetview gets it's next update, it's going
to look a bit weird if the maps aren't corrected as well.

See http://www.girlclumsy.com/2010/05/on-bridge.html#more


On 16 May 2010 11:55, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
 It's been months now since a new section of the gateway motorway
 opened and it still hasn't appeared on their maps, and today, or
 tomorrow at the latest, the gateway motorway bridge opens to traffic.

 So I'm wondering if we should start a pool on how long before the
 bridge and other road works ends up on google maps.

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Re: [talk-au] New gateway motorway bridge duplication

2010-05-16 Thread Steve Bennett

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 3:56 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
 There is a lot of weird street view locations where the roads have
 been realigned but the map data hasn't caught up...

Yeah, here's an interesting one I came across a while ago:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8hq=ll=-37.632077,144.069471spn=0.011691,0.072098z=15layer=ccbll=-37.630716,144.062648panoid=UbAjxEt3Nz25stG7maF4Lwcbp=11,273.15,,0,-4

Drag the little man around and you'll notice that since Yendon-Egerton
Rd is actually dead straight, the street view only shows up where
reality intersects the non-existent wiggle in the map data...

Steve

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[talk-au] Broadcast tower locations

CC-by dataset just turned up:

http://data.australia.gov.au/622

It seems pretty straight forward to convert this to .osm format,
suitable for JOSM. However I'm after suggestions on how to deal with
the .osm file(s).

I'm leaning towards producing metro and non-metro data sets and bulk
importing the non-metro data sets and then offering the metro data
sets on a request basis, or is there a better way to handle this and
other similar data sets?

These locations might be of interest for another reason, many
transmission sites are close to look outs.

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Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?

2010-05-16 Thread Andrew Gregory

I'd like to thank everyone who replied. While there were some suggestions,  
it seems nobody else is worrying about these, so I guess with no  
established convention I'll go with waterway=drain;area=yes.  
waterway=drain because I've seen many of these sites with signs marked  
drainage area. area=yes is required because the wiki page for drain:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Ddrain

only lists way elements for it.

John mentioned surface=grass. I've never seen one of these with grass.  
More like surface=ground/dirt/sand/gravel/compacted.

-- 
Andrew Gregory mailto:and...@scss.com.au
http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/

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Re: [talk-au] Broadcast tower locations

2010-05-16 Thread Roy Wallace

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:13 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm leaning towards producing metro and non-metro data sets and bulk
 importing the non-metro data sets and then offering the metro data
 sets on a request basis, or is there a better way to handle this and
 other similar data sets?

Splitting up the data seems reasonable. As for access, I'd suggest
supplying it via a central location on the wiki. In general, IMHO the
easier it is for people to access it and import it, the better.

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[talk-au] Fwd: [Aust-NZ] The National Plan for Environmental Information [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Bruce Bannerman b.banner...@bom.gov.au
Date: 17 May 2010 14:30
Subject: [Aust-NZ] The National Plan for Environmental Information
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
To: aust...@lists.osgeo.org aust...@lists.osgeo.org



fyi:

http://www.environment.gov.au/npei/


Bruce

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Re: [talk-au] Broadcast tower locations

2010-05-16 Thread Steve Bennett

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:13 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm leaning towards producing metro and non-metro data sets and bulk
 importing the non-metro data sets and then offering the metro data
 sets on a request basis, or is there a better way to handle this and
 other similar data sets?

Is that because you're worried there will be a lot of duplicates with
existing data in metro areas? Could you perhaps import it all, but
mark the metro data as locked (or whatever it is that stops it
rendering)?

Steve

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Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?

2010-05-16 Thread Steve Bennett

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Andrew Gregory and...@scss.com.au wrote:
 I'd like to thank everyone who replied. While there were some suggestions,
 it seems nobody else is worrying about these, so I guess with no
 established convention I'll go with waterway=drain;area=yes.
 waterway=drain because I've seen many of these sites with signs marked
 drainage area. area=yes is required because the wiki page for drain:

Fwiw, I'd start using a new tag, maybe waterway=drainage_area, and
make a note in the wiki. Marking it drain, area=yes implies that
this is an actual running drain that happens to be quite wide at that
point.

Incidentally, to make sure I'm understanding what we're talking about,
you're talking about an area where water runs *into*, in order to seep
into the soil?

Steve

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Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?

2010-05-16 Thread Stephen Hope

Andrew,

Is this what you are talking about?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/basin%3Dinfiltration

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-February/034383.html


Stephen


On 17 May 2010 14:15, Andrew Gregory and...@scss.com.au wrote:
 I'd like to thank everyone who replied. While there were some suggestions,
 it seems nobody else is worrying about these, so I guess with no
 established convention I'll go with waterway=drain;area=yes.
 waterway=drain because I've seen many of these sites with signs marked
 drainage area. area=yes is required because the wiki page for drain:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Ddrain

 only lists way elements for it.

 John mentioned surface=grass. I've never seen one of these with grass.
 More like surface=ground/dirt/sand/gravel/compacted.

 --
 Andrew Gregory mailto:and...@scss.com.au
 http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/

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Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?

On 17 May 2010 15:27, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/basin%3Dinfiltration

+1, waterway=drain according to current wiki doco only applied to ways

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Re: [talk-au] Broadcast tower locations

On 17 May 2010 15:07, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is that because you're worried there will be a lot of duplicates with
 existing data in metro areas? Could you perhaps import it all, but

Some people were upset at previous imports in metro areas.

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[Talk-br] Confirmação de Presença no FISL

2010-05-16 Thread Claudomiro Nascimento Junior

Pessoal,

Eu e o Arlindo compramos passagem ontem para participar do FISL.

Só precisamos agora achar lugar (baratinho) pra pousar nos dias que
estivermos por lá.

Alguem do RS pode dar dicas em relação a lugar pra ficar?

[]s

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread M∡rtin Koppenhoefer

Am 16. Mai 2010 16:35 schrieb André Riedel riedel.an...@gmail.com:
 Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail.


Wie kommst Du darauf? Den Tag kannte ich noch gar nicht, er scheint
aber nicht für Trampelpfade gemacht zu sein:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrail

For cross-country trails, hiking trails, paths going up to a mountain 

Die Definition ist komplett frei von Abgrenzungen zu footway und path
(die können doch auch einen Berg hochgehen, oder?) und es steht sogar
dabei, dass es designierte Fußwege sind (foot=designated). Das Bild
suggeriert auch eher einen größeren Weg als einen Trampelpfad.

Ich nutze selbst highway=footway, informal=yes für Trampelpfade. Steht
allerdings wohl nirgends dokumentiert und ist ggf. ein Platzhalter,
d.h. ich würde die auch wieder zu was anderem umtaggen, wenn es denn
klar ist, dass das neue (alte) Tag wirklich und ausschließlich
Trampelpfade meint. Das trail scheint mir die Anforderungen an eine
brauchbare Definition nicht zu erfüllen, zumindest sind das m.E. keine
Trampelpfade. Sieh Dir mal hier die Bilder an:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail

Gruß Martin

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[Talk-de] Aktualisierungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames

2010-05-16 Thread Johann H. Addicks

Liegt es am Aktualiserungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames, oder
warum wird der Thälmannsee (mit Name versehen vor einem Monat) nicht
gefunden?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23231371/history

-jha-


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Re: [Talk-de] - optisch aufgearbeitete OSM History

2010-05-16 Thread malenki

UMAX974 schrieb:

vor einiger Zeit hab ich mal eine Seite gesehen, auf der die OSM
History einer Ortes optisch dargestellt war. Ich könnt mir vorstellen,
dass es so etwas evtl sogar in Form eines kleinen Filmes gäbe. Ich
fände das z..B für  OSM Präsentationen eine Tolle Sache, wenn man für
einen beliebigen Ort diese OSM Wachstum darstellen könnte. Gibt es so
etwas?

Dies¹ Trifft nicht ganz das Thema, könnte möglicherweise trotzdem
hilfreich sein (Ansichten zu verschiedenen Zeiten generieren lassen, gif
erstellen, done.)

¹
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.de/59980/

Gruß
malenki



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[Talk-de] highway=trail

2010-05-16 Thread André Riedel

Am 16. Mai 2010 16:48 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 Am 16. Mai 2010 16:35 schrieb André Riedel riedel.an...@gmail.com:
 Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail.


 Wie kommst Du darauf? Den Tag kannte ich noch gar nicht, er scheint
 aber nicht für Trampelpfade gemacht zu sein:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrail

 For cross-country trails, hiking trails, paths going up to a mountain 

 Die Definition ist komplett frei von Abgrenzungen zu footway und path
 (die können doch auch einen Berg hochgehen, oder?) und es steht sogar
 dabei, dass es designierte Fußwege sind (foot=designated). Das Bild
 suggeriert auch eher einen größeren Weg als einen Trampelpfad.

Die Wikiseite ist in der Tat sehr schlecht.

 Ich nutze selbst highway=footway, informal=yes für Trampelpfade. Steht
 allerdings wohl nirgends dokumentiert und ist ggf. ein Platzhalter,
 d.h. ich würde die auch wieder zu was anderem umtaggen, wenn es denn
 klar ist, dass das neue (alte) Tag wirklich und ausschließlich
 Trampelpfade meint. Das trail scheint mir die Anforderungen an eine
 brauchbare Definition nicht zu erfüllen, zumindest sind das m.E. keine
 Trampelpfade. Sieh Dir mal hier die Bilder an:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail

Das ist wieder so eine Sache mit den Übersetzungen.
path != Pfad
track - trail oder Eisenbahnbett http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track

Hier geht es um Definitionen. Im Speziellen kann man die
Entstehungsgeschichte (irgendwo) im Mail-Archiv nachlesen. Es ging
dabei auf jeden Fall um eine Kategorie unterhalb der von path/footway.

Aber man sollte es auf jeden Fall noch ein mal verfolgen, wie die
genaue Verwendung ist.

Ciao André

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Re: [Talk-de] Aktualisierungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames

2010-05-16 Thread Volker

Johann H. Addicks addicks at gmx.net writes:

 
 Liegt es am Aktualiserungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames, oder
 warum wird der Thälmannsee (mit Name versehen vor einem Monat) nicht
 gefunden?
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23231371/history
 
 -jha-
 

Da ist was kaputt:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim

:(





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Re: [Talk-de] Aktualisierungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames

2010-05-16 Thread Johann H. Addicks

Volker schrieb:

 Da ist was kaputt:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim

Hmm, 13. April hiess es also ETA 14 days schade.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Nominatimdiff=457648oldid=442739

-jha-


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Re: [Talk-de] - optisch aufgearbeitete OSM History

Hallo,

UMAX974 wrote:
 vor einiger Zeit hab ich mal eine Seite gesehen, auf der die OSM History 
 einer Ortes optisch dargestellt war. Ich könnt mir vorstellen, dass es so 
 etwas evtl sogar in Form eines kleinen Filmes gäbe. Ich fände das z..B für  
 OSM Präsentationen eine Tolle Sache, wenn man für einen beliebigen Ort diese 
 OSM Wachstum darstellen könnte. Gibt es so etwas?

Ich habe einen recht primitiven Dienst, mit dem man sich eine Grafik, 
die nur Nodes anzeigt, fuer einen beliebigen Ort erzeugen lassen kann:

http://labs.geofabrik.de/history/

Ausserdem habe ich vorfabrizierte Bilder fuer einige Regionen mit 
richtigem Mapnik-Rendering:

http://www.geofabrik.de/gallery/history/

Die sind aber zuletzt im Dezember aktualisiert worden.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets

2010-05-16 Thread Johannes Huesing

Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:30:15PM CEST]:
 Am Sonntag 16 Mai 2010, 12:17:30 schrieb Johannes Huesing:
  Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:16:23AM 
 CEST]:
   Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing:
 Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu.
 Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat
 stehend ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen
 Stadtteil.

Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil?
   
   ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die
   gelben schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund
   (fruehere eigene gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen
   hat.
   
   ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von
   grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden.
  
  Hat ein Weiler also keinen Namen? Oder hat er einen Namen, der
  Grund dafür ist nur unbekannt?
 
 kannst du lesen?!?

Mit ein bisschen Mühe verstehe ich auch die absolute Kleinschreibung.

 hab ich das geschrieben???

Nein, aber tertium non datur.

Ich habe folgendes aus Deinem Text gelesen, tut mir Leid, wenn
ich Dich falsch verstanden habe:

Ein Stadtteil ist ein Gebiet innerhalb der Ortsgrenzen (die gelben
schilder) einer groesseren Stadt, das aus irgendeinem Grund (fruehere eigene
Gemeinde, eigene Verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen Namen hat.

Das bedeutet, kennzeichnend ist, dass sich ein Stadtteil nicht nur
auf dem Stadtgebiet befindet, sondern auch eine geschlossene Ortschaft.
Das ist zu Deiner Information nicht gleichbedeutend, die gelben 
Schilder markieren die Grenzen der geschlossenen Bebauung, nicht 
die Ortsgrenzen. Wichtig ist, dass er nicht nur einen Namen hat,
sondern dass es auch einen Grund für den Namen gibt. Beispiele 
dafür sind eine frühere Eigenständigkeit oder eine eigene Verwaltung.
Das letzte wäre eher ein Stadtbezirk als ein Stadtteil. Es müssen 
nicht unbedingt Menschen in diesem Stadtteil wohnen, ein Gewerbegebiet
kann auch ein Stadtteil sein. Hauptsache, es gibt einen Grund dafür,
dass es einen Namen hat.

Ein Weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende Ansammlung von
Grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene Ortschaft bilden.

Dies sind keine Gegenbegriffe zu einem Stadtteil, außer den gelben
Schildern und dass eine Aussage über den Namen fehlt. Eine kleine,
alleinstehende Ansammlung von Häusern kann es auch innerhalb von
Städten geben, das ist kein Alleinstehungskriterium für Gemeindeteile
oder selbstständige Weiler. Die Hemmschwelle, gelbe Schilder zu
errichten, ist in der Stadt niedriger als in Landgemeinden.

 wahrscheinlich hat er einen namen, sonst koennte man ja nix hinschreiben.

Könnte man schon, nur das name-Tag würde leer bleiben.

 der name ist absolut irrelevant.

Warum hast Du ihn in Deiner Definition für Stadtteil dann aufgeführt?

-- 
Johannes Hüsing   There is something fascinating about science. 
  One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture 
mailto:johan...@huesing.name  from such a trifling investment of fact.  
  
http://derwisch.wikidot.com (Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi)

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauc ht den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread Nils Heuermann

Am Sun, 16 May 2010 14:01:28 +0200 hat Florian Gross  
usenet-spam-genausoguel...@grossing.de geschrieben:

 Hier in der Gegend scheinen die Blauschilder (auch von der Polizei)
 eher als Fahrrad frei angesehen zu werden und werden auch so
 verwendet.

genau, wobei ich die als Radfahrer angenehmer finde als Fußweg+Radfahrer  
frei, dann ist man rechtlich gesehen nicht nur ein Gast ;-)

Andererseits verbietet man mit den Fuß-/Radweg-Schildern (im Gegensatz zu  
gar keinen Schildern) die Nutzung für Mopeds etc., die da sicher auch  
gerne langfahren würden (bzw. deren Fahrer).

Gruß,
Nils

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[Talk-de] Stolpersteine - Vollständigkeitsauswe rtung

2010-05-16 Thread Jan Tappenbeck


Moin !

seit einigen Wochen werden vermehrt Stolpersteine erfaßt.

Ich habe jetzt hierzu ein Tool [1] erstellt mit welchem die 
Vollständigkeit überwacht werden soll.


Einzelheiten zum Thema findet Ihr unter [2].

Es würde mich freuen, wenn die Erfassung in HH so weiter vorangeht wie 
bisher - es gibt nämlich schon ein großes Interesse an der daraus 
entstehenden Karte.


Vorerst habe ich nur HH und Lübeck eingepflegt. Nach einer gewissen 
Testphase können gerne auch andere Städte eingebunden werden.


Gruß Jan :-)


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stolpersteine#Soll-Ist-Abgleich-Tool

[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stolpersteine
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[Talk-de] Geodaten für Zürich

Liebe Schweizer,

ich war auf einer Tagung bei Google in Zürich und habe dort
Menschen aus dem GIS-Umfeld der Stadt Zürich kennengelernt.
Die finden OSM gut und wären bereit, Daten zur Verfügung zu stellen.

Einen entsprechenden Kontakt kann ich gern vermittel.
Leider kenne ich die Schweizer/Zürcher-OSM-Szene nicht:
wer wäre ein geeigneter Gesprächspartner?

Gruss, Markus


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[Talk-de] 3D-Panorama-Karte

Google hat in Zürich eine 3D-Panorama-Karte vorgestellt.

Ein Dutzend grossformatige Flachbildschirme hochkant im Kreis.
Darauf nahtlos die Welt als Panorama.
Der Betrachter mitten drin.

In der Mitte eine 3D-Maus:
drehen: das Panorama dreht sich um den Betrachter
bewegen nach vorn/hinten/rechts/links: Flugbewegung/Zoom
hochziehen: Bewegung zur Weltraumperspektive
runterdrücken: Bewegung zur Froschperspektive

Hier ein Ausschnitt mit dem Musterhafen Warnemünde von OpenSeaMap:
http://www.openseamap.org/index.php?id=52L=0
Man kann sogar rund um den Leuchtturm fliegen...

Gruss, Markus

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[Talk-de] Geodaten für Uster (CH)

Liebe Schweizer,

ich habe einen Menschen aus dem GIS-Umfeld der Stat Uster kennengelernt. 
Er wäre bereit, Daten zur Verfügung zu stellen.
Einen entsprechenden Kontakt kann ich gern vermittel.
Wer mag?

Gruss, Markus

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ich habe gemerkt, dass es noch keine Vorgabe gibt, wie Stationszeichen
gemappt werden können. Stationszeichen sind die kleinen Schilderchen an
den Straßen, ide die Kilometrierung angeben, sozusagen die Nachfolger
der Kilometersteine (für mehr Informationen siehe
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stationszeichen). Zwar gibt es ein
Proposal zu Kilometersteinen
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Milestones), aber
das reicht für diesen Zweck bei weitem nicht aus. Daher habe ich unter
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Milestones#Some_more_ideas_how_to_tag_milestones_in_Germany_.28and_other_countries.3F.29
einen Vorschlag gemacht, wie man Stationszeichen (unter
Berücksichtigung des Proposals) mappen könnte. (Erschwert wird es
dadurch, das jedes Land sein eigenes System hat, zum Beispiel
http://www.stmi.bayern.de/bauen/strassenbau/veroeffentlichungen/16478/
(Bayern),
http://www.strassenbau.niedersachsen.de/master/C39481429_N39481081_L20_D0_I5213350.html
(Niedersachsen) oder
http://la.boa-bw.de/archive/frei/899/0/www.im.baden-wuerttemberg.de/de/Ordnungssystem_der_Strassen/1800155968.html?referer=17_min=_im
(Baden-Württemberg).)

Ich habe es bereits an einem kurzen Stück Straße ausprobiert:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/4687539

Leider gab es bisher weder im Wiki noch im Blog Rückmeldungen dazu,
weswegen ich mich jetzt an diese ML wende, um zu fragen, was ihr davon
haltet, und ob es z. B. noch Anregungen oder Verbesserungsvorschäge
gibt.

Mir ist durchaus bewusst, dass es sich hierbei vermutlich um ein eher
langweiliges Thema handelt, aber ich denke, Stationszeichen sind es
durchaus wert, gemappt zu werden, weil sie jeden Punkt im Straßennetz
(jedenfalls, was die nummerierten Straßen angeht) genau definieren (je
nach Land durch Straßennummer, Abschnitt und Station oder vorherigem
Netzknoten, nächsten Netzknoten und Station). Das könnte zum Beispiel
bei Unfällen recht hilfreich sein.

Gruß,
T. M.

PS: Dies ist mein erster Beitrag zu dieser ML (genaugenommen einer der
ersten überhaupt zu irgendeiner ML), daher hoffe ich, dass ich alles
richtig gemacht habe, und bitte euch, mir möglichst nicht den Kopf
abzureißen, wenn ich doch was falsch gemacht habe.

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 04:35:07PM +0200, André Riedel wrote:
 Kartendarstellung redest, vermische bitte nicht deine Übersetzung von
 path zu Pfad mit der der Definition von highway=path. Ein
 highway=path ist dem cycleway und dem footway gleichwertig!
 
 Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail.

Steht mal im widerspruch zu dem Bild hier:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath

und auch der in dieser Seite verfassten Definition in Schriftform.

In der Deutschen variante:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dpath

Einfacher Weg im Wald, der keine weitere Beschilderung hat. Laut den
Access-Restrictions also erlaubt für Fußgänger, Radfahrer und Reiter.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen.
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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[Talk-de] Wikipedia SkillShare-Konferenz in Lünebu rg

vom 4.-5. Juni findet in Lüneburg eine Wikipedia/Wikimedia-Konferenz 
statt: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Skillshare

Bis jetzt werden 130 Teilnehmer erwartet.
Vielleicht ist ja für den einen oder anderen etwas dabei.

Gruss, Markus


Themen:
* Fotorallye der 500 Fotos von Lüneburg
* Bots für Dummies – Vortrag
* Bots für Nerds
* Wir machen die Monobooks! – Workshop
* Toolserver
* Qualitätsmanagement
* Konflikte in der Wikipedia – Konstruktive Internetkommunikation
* Beautyretusche
* Ethik in Zusammenhang mit Artikeln über lebende Personen
* Wikisource – Workshop
* Urheberrecht
* Dateiüberprüfung
* Wikiversity
* „Nenne Name und Lizenz“: Nachnutzung der Wikipedia in der Pressearbeit
* RC meets MP
* Wikipedia, Wikimedia-Projekte und Schulen - Das Schulprojekt
* Funktionsweise der Wikipedia aus spieltheoretischer Sicht
* OpenStreetMap, die freie Weltkarte
* Fotografieren für Wikipedia
* Wikimania 2010 in Danzig – wir stellen uns vor
* Welche Quellen darf man benutzen? Was sind überhaupt Quellen?
* Supportteam demystified
* Medienkompetenzschulung mit ARD-aktuell-Chef Kai Gniffke
* Creative Commons als Lizenzen der Zukunft
* Onlinesucht - Kritischer Umgang mit dem Internet
* Digitalisieren im Stadtarchiv
* Wikiquote-Workshop
* Wikipedia-Usability

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Re: [Talk-de] Stolpersteine - Vollständigkeitsauswertu ng

2010-05-16 Thread Walter Nordmann


hi jan,

ich dachte, es wäre inzwischen ALLEN klar, dass Relationen NICHT zum
Gruppieren (zusammenstellen von Objekten) dienen soll. Da gab es vor einigen
Wochen mal wieder Diskussionen drüber.

walter

-
Der Fehler tritt nicht sporadisch sondern nur ab und zu auf. - aus
Hotline-Eintrag
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Re: [Talk-de] Geodaten für Zürich

2010-05-16 Thread Thomas Ineichen

Hallo Markus,

 ich war auf einer Tagung bei Google in Zürich und habe dort
 Menschen aus dem GIS-Umfeld der Stadt Zürich kennengelernt.
 Die finden OSM gut und wären bereit, Daten zur Verfügung zu stellen.

Ich war per Zufall vorgestern Freitag beim GeoZ und habe dort nach der
Verwendung  der Luftbilder der Stadt gefragt. Wenn alles klappt sollte
ich bald ein schriftliches OK dazu haben. Um welche Daten ging es denn
bei Dir?


 Einen entsprechenden Kontakt kann ich gern vermittel.
 Leider kenne ich die Schweizer/Zürcher-OSM-Szene nicht:
 wer wäre ein geeigneter Gesprächspartner?

Hier lesen nur wenige Schweizer mit; die CH-Liste findest Du hier:
http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch


Gruss,
Thomas



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Re: [Talk-de] Geodaten für Zürich

Hallo Thomas,

 Ich war per Zufall vorgestern Freitag beim GeoZ und habe dort nach der
 Verwendung  der Luftbilder der Stadt gefragt. Wenn alles klappt sollte
 ich bald ein schriftliches OK dazu haben.

Gratuliere!

 Um welche Daten ging es denn bei Dir?

Die Stadt Zürich erfasst grad den gesamten Langsamverkehr.
Man könnte sich vorstellen die Ergebnisse mit OSM zu teilen.

 Hier lesen nur wenige Schweizer mit

Schade. Vielleicht kannst Du das Angebot ja weiterleiten
und jemand meldet sich bei mir?

Gruss, Markus

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[Talk-de] Flüsse und Kanäle

Liebe OSMer,

Viele Flüsse und Kanäle sind bisher nur als Linie dargestellt:
Peene
Oder-Havel-Kanal
Elbe-Lübeck-Kanal
Mittellandkanal Hanover-Minden
Oder-Spree-Kanal
Elde-Müritz-Wasserstr.
Obere Havel
Havel-Kanal

Vielleicht gibt es ja kommunale Luftbilder,
mit denen man die Breite erkennen und darstellen kann?
Oder Ortskundige können helfen?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:waterway=riverbank

Gruss, Markus

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Re: [Talk-de] Bayernviewer-Daten

2010-05-16 Thread Daniela Duerbeck

M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 Hast Du mal nachgesehen, ob es evtl. einen Bebauungsplan gibt? Da
 stehen die Hausnummern z.B. auch drin.
   
Für München gibt es leider erst sehr wenige Bebauungspläne online:
http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/plan/bebplanung/rechtsverbindliche_bebauungsplaene/176754/index.html

Hier is alles rot, was (online) verfügbar ist
http://www.muenchen.de/cms/prod2/mde/_de/rubriken/Rathaus/75_plan/05_bebplanung/rechtsverbindliche_bebauungsplaene/uebersichtsliste.pdf

Ich hab jetzt auch ein paar Hausnummern eingetragen und muß sagen, dass 
es schon arg mühsam ist, will man alles ablaufen/abfahren.

Aber für München finde ich keine Hausnummern-Pläne.

Viele Grüße von Dani


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Re: [Talk-de] Stolpersteine - Vollständigkeitsauswertu ng

2010-05-16 Thread Jan Tappenbeck

Am 16.05.2010 21:55, schrieb Walter Nordmann:

 hi jan,

 ich dachte, es wäre inzwischen ALLEN klar, dass Relationen NICHT zum
 Gruppieren (zusammenstellen von Objekten) dienen soll. Da gab es vor einigen
 Wochen mal wieder Diskussionen drüber.

 walter

 -
 Der Fehler tritt nicht sporadisch sondern nur ab und zu auf. - aus
 Hotline-Eintrag

Hi !

das Thema wurde einmal so angefangen und deshalb habe ich mich vorerst 
daran orientiert.

Solange es noch kein anderes (spezielles) Tag für diese Menge von 
Objekten ( 23.000) finde ich das gar nicht so verkehrt.

Gruß Jan :-)


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Re: [Talk-de] Gemeindegrenzen und Straßennamen

2010-05-16 Thread Chris66

Am 15.05.2010 22:12, schrieb Chris66:

 Und woher sollen Anwendungen wissen, dass sich die addr: Information
 nicht auf das Objekt selbst bezieht?
 
 Hab die Tags gelöscht.

Hier gibts noch mehr davon:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44816271
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44815979
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334631
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334377
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/333876
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334376
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334375
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334627
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/333875
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/556028

Ob Mapnik/Osma die Hausnummer des NSG in die Mitte des Polygons
malt weiss ich nicht. ;-)

Chris



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Re: [Talk-de] Unterscheidung von Fahrrad/Fahrradfahren verboten

2010-05-16 Thread Felix Hartmann

Es braeuchte wirklich ein Tag fuer den speziellen italienischen 
Sonderfall in einigen Gebirgsgegenden, wo man sein MTB nur tragen, aber 
nicht schieben darf. Berührt das Bike den Boden und ein Ranger siehts, 
kostet es 3 stellige Geldstrafe.


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[Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread Tirkon

Im Wiki wird beim cycleway betont, dass dieser straßenbegleitend sei.
Das ist in Städten häufig so. Hier auf dem Land, wo Eigenheime
abgesehen von Stadtkernen fast die Regel sind, werden Neubausiedlungen
häufig als Ansammlung von Stichstraßen mit Wendehämmern angelegt und
30er Zonen immer mehr die Regel. Bürgersteige sind rare Ausnahmen. Man
läuft und radelt (und spielt) auf der Straße. Um den Fußgängern und
Radfahrern die dadurch bedingten Umwege zu ersparen, gibt es schmale
befestigte Querverbindungen, welche durchgängig als kombinierter Rad
und Fußweg beschildert sind. Von straßenbegleitend kann somit keine
Rede sein.

Auch als designated im Sinne von OSM würde ich die Wege nicht
bezeichnen, wenngleich diese Wege - wenn verkürzend und insbesondere
für Kinder sicherer - natürlich gern genutzt werden. Eine weitere
Intention ist es dabei auch, ein Rad- und Schulwegenetz abseits von
Hauptstraßen zu schaffen. In den Siedlungen verkehrt nunmehr nicht nur
Zielverkehr, sondern sie werden für die Radfahrer zu einer Art
Nahverkehrsnetz. So dringt diese Form - wo möglich - auch immer mehr
in Altsiedlungen vor. 

Diese Beschilderung der Abkürzungen kann rechtlich wegen des
abweichenden Verlaufes niemand davon abhalten, den Umweg über die
Straße zu nehmen. Sind da hunderte von Wegen falsch beschildert, da
nicht straßenbegleitend? Sind die Gesetze da von der Wirklichkeit
überholt worden, in der auch solitäre und nicht nur straßenbegleitende
Wege regelmässig so gekennzeichnet sind? 

Für diese Fälle stört bei OSM die Annahme der Straßenbegleitung und
des designated schon sehr, weil sie auf dem Land in der Praxis nicht
stimmt. 

OSM ist in den Städten sehr gut aufgestellt. Es fehlt an einer
besseren Abdeckung des ländlichen Raumes. Um dem beizukommen, mangelt
es hier am griffigen Tag cyclefootway ohne Designierung, das nicht
so heißen muss. In den Fällen, wenn diese Wege in aller Regel baulich
getrennt sich übergangslos einer Hauptstraße nähern, kann man dann das
designated hinzufügen. Das entspricht der praktischen Handhabung,
wie sie von der Polizei durchgesetzt und den Kindern im
Verkehrsunterricht gelehrt wird. 

Für solch ein griffiges Tag spricht auch, dass momentan der footway
bzw cycleway als tatsächlich designated und eigentlich ausschleßlich
Rafahrern vorbehalten für solche Fälle missbraucht werden, wie es
derzeit verbreitet auf OSM der Fall ist.

Ich weiß, dass man für solche Fälle ein path verwenden kann. Das
aber widerstrebt vielen Usern, die einen gewissen Ausbauzustand für
Radfahrer und Fußgänger ähnlich der primary-Straßenklasse für
Autostraßen damit verbinden möchten.


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Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets

2010-05-16 Thread Guenther Meyer

Am Sonntag 16 Mai 2010, 04:40:50 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
 Am 15. Mai 2010 23:51 schrieb Johannes Huesing johan...@huesing.name:
  Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil?
 
 Es ging hier um München. Zeig mir mal einen Stadtteil von München, der
 nur Weiler ist.
 
wie?!
dein beispiel solln ist ein stadtteil und damit definitiv kein hamlet.
nichts anderes habe ich geschrieben.

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Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets

2010-05-16 Thread Guenther Meyer

Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing:
  Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu.
  Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat stehend
  ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen Stadtteil.
 
 Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil?
 
ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die gelben 
schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund (fruehere eigene 
gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen hat.

ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von 
grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden.


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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread aighes


Hallo,
wie wäre es mit dem allgemeinen highway=path in Kombination mit
bicycle=yes|designated|no, foot=yes|designated|no und segregated=yes|no ?

path sagt im Prinzip das gleiche aus, wie cycleway und footway, es lässt
aber die vorherschende Nutzung offen.
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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread aighes


Noch eine Ergänzung:

Den Ausbauzustand eines Weges kann man mit surface=*, smoothness=* und
width=* angegeben werden. Weder path, noch cycleway noch footway machen
irgendeine Aussage zum Ausbauzustand, außer dass er nicht für Autos gedacht
ist.
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Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets

2010-05-16 Thread Johannes Huesing

Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:16:23AM CEST]:
 Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing:
   Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu.
   Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat stehend
   ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen Stadtteil.
  
  Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil?
  
 ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die gelben 
 schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund (fruehere eigene 
 gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen hat.
 
 ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von 
 grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden.
 

Hat ein Weiler also keinen Namen? Oder hat er einen Namen, der
Grund dafür ist nur unbekannt?

-- 
Johannes Hüsing   There is something fascinating about science. 
  One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture 
mailto:johan...@huesing.name  from such a trifling investment of fact.  
  
http://derwisch.wikidot.com (Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi)

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Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets

2010-05-16 Thread Guenther Meyer

Am Sonntag 16 Mai 2010, 12:17:30 schrieb Johannes Huesing:
 Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:16:23AM 
CEST]:
  Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing:
Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu.
Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat
stehend ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen
Stadtteil.
   
   Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil?
  
  ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die
  gelben schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund
  (fruehere eigene gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen
  hat.
  
  ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von
  grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden.
 
 Hat ein Weiler also keinen Namen? Oder hat er einen Namen, der
 Grund dafür ist nur unbekannt?

kannst du lesen?!?
hab ich das geschrieben???
wahrscheinlich hat er einen namen, sonst koennte man ja nix hinschreiben.
der name ist absolut irrelevant.

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread Heiko Jacobs

Tirkon schrieb:
 Im Wiki wird beim cycleway betont, dass dieser straßenbegleitend sei.

Meinst Du auf
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:cycleway

  Mit cycleway=* werden Fahrradwege beschrieben.
  Das sind Wege die neben der eigentlichen Straßen verlaufen
  und speziell gekennzeichnet sind. In diesem Fall benutzt man
  highway=* ganz normal für die eigentliche Straße und ergänzt
  cycleway=* um den Fahrradweg zu beschreiben.

...? Dann steht die Lösung doch im nächsten Absatz:

  Wenn man eigenständige Fahrradwege kennzeichnen möchte
  nimmt man stattdessen highway=cycleway.

mit foot=yes|designated, wenn Du path nicht magst:

  Ich weiß, dass man für solche Fälle ein path verwenden kann. Das
  aber widerstrebt vielen Usern, die einen gewissen Ausbauzustand für
  Radfahrer und Fußgänger ähnlich der primary-Straßenklasse für
  Autostraßen damit verbinden möchten.

plus surface=asphalt|compacted|paving_stones|...
und smoothness=good|...

Gruß Mueck


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Re: [Talk-de] Unterscheidung von Fahrrad/Fahrradfahren verboten

2010-05-16 Thread Simon Kokolakis

Am 16.05.2010 00:11, schrieb Heiko Jacobs:
 Anders kann es nur im nicht-öffentlichen Bereich aussehen, wo
 Fußgängern womöglich wirksam das Mitführen von Fahrzeugen untersagt
 werden könnte. Also eingezäunte Gelände oder Gebäude könnten sowas
 in der Hausordnung haben. Wer sowas taggen will, muss vermutlich
 ein tag erst noch erfinden dafür ;-)


In der Tat handelt es sich um eine Einkaufspassage, also im nicht-StVO 
Bereich. Dort ist in der Hausordnung explizit das Fahren und das 
Schieben verboten. Räder dürfen somit überhaupt nicht in das Gebäude.

Beste Grüße,
Simon

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway

2010-05-16 Thread Florian Gross

Tirkon glaubte zu wissen:

Auch wenn es nicht wirklich hier rein gehört:

 Diese Beschilderung der Abkürzungen kann rechtlich wegen des
 abweichenden Verlaufes niemand davon abhalten, den Umweg über die
 Straße zu nehmen. Sind da hunderte von Wegen falsch beschildert, da
 nicht straßenbegleitend? Sind die Gesetze da von der Wirklichkeit
 überholt worden, in der auch solitäre und nicht nur straßenbegleitende
 Wege regelmässig so gekennzeichnet sind? 

Genau das. Kurzer Hintergrund:

Die Benutzungspflicht darf nur angeordnet werden, um eine besondere
Gefahrenstelle zu beseitigen. Für diese Gefahrenbeseitigung gibt es
hohe Zuschüsse beim *Bau* des Weges.
Da die Benutzungspflicht von einer Behörde angeordnet wird, ist man
bisher davon ausgegangen, daß diese die Vorschriften[1] beachtet und
die Benutzungspflicht nur den Vorgaben entsprechend angeordnet wird
und es wurde nie nachgeschaut, wo die Benutzungspflicht eigentlich
angeordnet wurde.
Folge: Die Städte und Gemeinden sind schnell dahintergekommen, daß
man sich so den Großteil der Baukosten abnehmen lassen kann, wenn
man nur ein Blauschild an den Weg hängt.
Was gerne übersehen wird: Die Wege müssen notfalls regelmäßig
gesäubert und geräumt sowie Instand gehalten werden. Dafür gibt
es keine Zuschüsse.

Warum sich die Behörden meist hartnäckig weigern, eine einmal
verhängte Benutzungspflicht wieder zurückzunehmen:
Die erhaltenen Fördergelder müßten dann zurückgezahlt werden,
was manche Kassen merklich leeren würde.

[1] Dazu gehört einiges wie Mindestbreite, Fahrbahnbegleitend und
einiges mehr. Das muß alles erfüllt sein, um eine benutzungspflicht
verhängen zu dürfen.

 Für diese Fälle stört bei OSM die Annahme der Straßenbegleitung und
 des designated schon sehr, weil sie auf dem Land in der Praxis nicht
 stimmt. 

Hier in der Gegend scheinen die Blauschilder (auch von der Polizei)
eher als Fahrrad frei angesehen zu werden und werden auch so
verwendet.

flo
-- 
Die Schreibselfehler hab Ich jetzt mal oben entfernt.   [WoKo in dag°]


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Re: [Talk-de] Stats OSMI Routing View 2010/05

2010-05-16 Thread Pascal Neis

Hi,

André Riedel schrieb:
 André Riedel schrieb:
 Ich finde es immer noch Schade, dass Wege, welche mit einem Knoten mit
 noexit=yes enden, und Weg, welche mit highway=platform oder
 public_transport=platform verbunden sind, als Fehler angesehen werden!
 ab morgen sollten Knoten die mit highway=platform oder mit
 public_transport=platform verbunden sind, nicht mehr als Fehler
 angezeigt werden.
 Und hat sich deine Meinung zu ersteren Fall geändert?
 
 vielleicht ein wenig ;o)
 Bisher habe ich es so verstanden, das in fast allen Posts,
 die ich von anderen gelesen habe, sie das Tag noexit an den Way
 und nicht an die Node hängen. Wie du richtig schreibst, sieht es
 laut tagwatch etwas anders aus. Ich persönlich finde es eigentlich
 auch besser wenn es am Way und nicht an der Node vorhanden ist.
 Werde es am WE integrieren ..
 
 Danke.

ist drin! Die Anzahl der Fehler hat sich aber nur
um ca. 150 verringert. Haette gedacht das es mehr
ausmachen wurde ...

viele gruesse
pascal




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Re: [Talk-de] Stats OSMI Routing View 2010/05

2010-05-16 Thread André Riedel

Am 16. Mai 2010 14:16 schrieb Pascal Neis pascal.n...@gmail.com:
 Hi,

 André Riedel schrieb:
 André Riedel schrieb:
 Ich finde es immer noch Schade, dass Wege, welche mit einem Knoten mit
 noexit=yes enden, und Weg, welche mit highway=platform oder
 public_transport=platform verbunden sind, als Fehler angesehen werden!
 ab morgen sollten Knoten die mit highway=platform oder mit
 public_transport=platform verbunden sind, nicht mehr als Fehler
 angezeigt werden.
 Und hat sich deine Meinung zu ersteren Fall geändert?
  
 vielleicht ein wenig ;o)
 Bisher habe ich es so verstanden, das in fast allen Posts,
 die ich von anderen gelesen habe, sie das Tag noexit an den Way
 und nicht an die Node hängen. Wie du richtig schreibst, sieht es
 laut tagwatch etwas anders aus. Ich persönlich finde es eigentlich
 auch besser wenn es am Way und nicht an der Node vorhanden ist.
 Werde es am WE integrieren ..

 Danke.

 ist drin! Die Anzahl der Fehler hat sich aber nur
 um ca. 150 verringert. Haette gedacht das es mehr
 ausmachen wurde ...

:-/ Besser als nichts ;-)
ABER bei den bisherigen False-Positives musste das Attribut immer am
Weg stehen und hat vielleicht einige vor der Nutzung auf einen Knoten
zurückgeschreckt.

Mir ist noch ein Speziallfall aufgefallen, welcher das Routing zwar
nicht beeinflusst, aber doch recht häufig auftritt. Ein Weg geht an
ein Gebäude (oder einzelne Hausnummer) und endet dort (mit gemeinsamen
Knoten). Diese Fälle könnten am besten noch herausgefiltert werden.

Ciao André

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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 02:32:08AM -0700, aighes wrote:
 Hallo,
 wie wäre es mit dem allgemeinen highway=path in Kombination mit
 bicycle=yes|designated|no, foot=yes|designated|no und segregated=yes|no ?
 
 path sagt im Prinzip das gleiche aus, wie cycleway und footway, es lässt
 aber die vorherschende Nutzung offen.

Ich wohne auch auf dem Land - bei mir ist das alles cycleway - Ein
cycleway=track ist straßenbegleitend und wird auf dem way der straße
angelegt. Ein highway=cycleway ist ja immer ein eigenstaendiges objekt
von daher ist der terminus des Straßenbegleitend da sicherlich
uebertrieben und/oder falsch.

Ein path ist wirklich ein Pfad - d.h. nichts befestigtes in meinen
augen. D.h. wenn jden tag 30 Schulkinder auf dem selben weg durch
den Wald stapfen dann ist das nach 3 Monate ein Path. Zum foot oder
cycleway wirds erst dann wenn jemand das ggfs ausschildert oder
befestigt.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen.
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:44:55AM +0200, Tirkon wrote:
 Für diese Fälle stört bei OSM die Annahme der Straßenbegleitung und
 des designated schon sehr, weil sie auf dem Land in der Praxis nicht
 stimmt. 

Dann nimm doch das Wiki nicht woertlich 

 OSM ist in den Städten sehr gut aufgestellt. Es fehlt an einer
 besseren Abdeckung des ländlichen Raumes. Um dem beizukommen, mangelt
 es hier am griffigen Tag cyclefootway ohne Designierung, das nicht
 so heißen muss. In den Fällen, wenn diese Wege in aller Regel baulich
 getrennt sich übergangslos einer Hauptstraße nähern, kann man dann das
 designated hinzufügen. Das entspricht der praktischen Handhabung,
 wie sie von der Polizei durchgesetzt und den Kindern im
 Verkehrsunterricht gelehrt wird. 

Ich nutze dann wahlweise foot bzw cycleway + jeweils dem anderen
foot/bicycle=yes

Es kommt ja drauf an was man erreichen will. Ich moechte das
eine routingsoftware das benutzen kann und das es in der Karte
halbwegs vernuenftig auftaucht.

D.h. wenn das eher fuer Radfahrer ist bzw eher von radfahrern
benutzt wird ist das ein cycleway + foot=yes und sind das eher
die Fußgaenger dann ists nen footway + bicycle. 

Beides erfuellt den tatbestand der routebarkeit und taucht beides
in der Karte auf.

Wenn mir jemand darlegt was denn der neu zu erschaffende Blumenstrauß
an minderheitentags zusaetzlich bringt kann ich mein vorgehen ja 
nochmal ueberdenken.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen.
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [Talk-de] Gemeindegrenzen und Straßennamen