Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[Kevin Peat]

On 25 September 2017 17:13:01 BST, ael  wrote:
>On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 01:36:22PM +0100, SK53 wrote:
>> Moor (or possibly fell) covers a decent amount of Corine data
>imported
>> across Europe as natural=heath. In effect natural=heath on OSM no
>longer
>> means heath. It may mean any of the following:
>> 
>>- Upland vegetation in its broadest sense: unimproved upland
>grassland,
>>drier blanket bogs (covered by heather), Racometrium heath,
>Bilberry
>>dominated heath, Shrubby vegetation dominated by brooms (at least
>in France
>>& Spain), and no doubt a few others I've missed.
>>- Moorland in Britain, which is probably a slightly smaller subset
>of
>>the above
>>- Lowland heathland: places like the Surrey Heaths, Suffolk
>Sandlings,
>>Norfolk Brecks etc.
>>- Other less obvious lowland areas known as heaths: particularly
>with
>>large swathes of bracken and patches of birch.
>> 
>> When this thread first started I thought we could work to remove
>these
>> multiple meanings, but having seen what places with natural=heath
>from
>> Corine imported-data in the Cevennes,  suspect that this is an
>unrealistic
>> objective.
>
>Well, surely this make the tag so general as to be pretty useless. The
>original meaning was pretty specific and useful. "Moor" or something
>equivalant is well understood (in the UK, at least) and is useful as
>a broad description where detailed mapping is absent.
>
>Anyway, I take it that no one is objecting to my changes and wanting to
>revert them?
>
>ael
>
>
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This was discussed in a thread here a number of years ago. There is a lot of 
upland heath on the moor:

http://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/wildlife-and-heritage/habitats2/moorland/upland-heathland

I think it would be better if it was kept as heath with a sub type. Just 
changing it to moor doesn't add anything useful.

Kevin


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Kevin Peat]

On 15 March 2014 08:22:26 GMT, Michael Kugelmann michaelk_...@gmx.de wrote:
Am 14.03.2014 12:43, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:
 IMHO, share alike is just like DRM on music
What??? Come on, don't be foolish! DRM tries to prevent any reuse of 
date whereat Share Alike just requests to offer the data under the same

conditions as you got them. This is a fundamental difference!


Best regads,
Michael.


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Well my point is that using OSM should be a no-brainer and the complexity added 
to the license by share alike means that it isn't for a lot of potential users. 
I would prefer my contributions to be used as widely as possible. 

It really doesn't matter [to me] if a few people rip off the project if the 
result is OSM becomes ubiquitous. I don't suppose Linus Torvalds cares that a 
few Chinese companies rip off Linux when the open license means it is 
everywhere.

Anyway, this is a rather pointless discussion as I can't imagine any changes to 
the license while the previous license change is still in peoples' memories ;]

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Re: [Talk-GB] Use of leisure=sports_centre at Silverstone etc

[Kevin Peat]

I believe that Silverstone is also an active airfield.


Only for helicopters on race weekends and for sightseeing trips, the runway was 
repurposed a few years ago. To complicate things further there is a new 
university building on the site so you could add campus to the list of possible 
tags.

Kevin


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Re: [Talk-GB] Hants CC - Open Government Licence use of data

[Kevin Peat]

Robert Norris rw_nor...@hotmail.com wrote:

Case in point (green dots on OS Explorer, sort of track on NPE, nothing
in OS Streetview, perfectly good track for 4x4s (maybe even cars -
memory is fuzzy now)  mountain bikes).
Something I've mapped  (Potlatch2 claims AndyS has modified it - but
then I've never quite understood Potlatch2's change list compared to
one from the OSM website).
I don't think it was marked as a Byway hence I did not mark it as such
but feels like one (presumably the reasons for the additions Sailor
Steve has made).

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/41984943/history

'Hampshire's maintained highways list'
Are you referring to
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/roads/highway-factsheets/maintained-roads.htm
? Or something else?

However it's hard to search for unamed/unknown ways, such as the above.
...


I have mapped many of these green lanes in Devon and tagged them as:

   highway=track
   designation=unclassified_highway

They were discussed in the past on the list. You sometimes see them signed as 
unmetalled roads and they appear to have the same legal access rights as 
normal public roads.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Kevin Peat]

Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote:

It's not obvious at all, I even think this would have several negative
effects:
- rewarding contributions one way or another (like giving acces to
some additional service) may push quite bad quality contributions
(gamification for example is to be considered with a lot of caution)
- reducing access over time to services may create a very negative
image: imagine you have access to some service, then this access gets
limited, usually this is not providing positive feedback
- the more services will be on osm.org the less new interesting
services will be created on top of OSM data somewhere else.

OSM is not a project created to provide services to end users, it is a
project to create/share data in order to build services on top of
them.

The existing slippy map is a limited way to show the tip of our
iceberg. It already has some negative effect, with a lot of people not
going further and thinking that OSM is just that : an open map of
streets... when OSM is much much more.

There are plenty of sites providing very interesting services on top
of OSM data, and osm.org should allow visitors to discover them
instead of replicating more or less these sites and services.

I agree with you about gamification, there are plenty of people faking 4square 
[and similar] check-ins just to get badges, etc. I don't think osm needs that 
kind of thing.

The main problem with mappers having to rely on third party sites is they all 
update with different schedules. I make a change to fix a routing problem, how 
long do I have to wait before a third party site is updated; hours, days or 
weeks?

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Kevin Peat]

Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote

What do I think? I think code counts - good quality, robust, deployable
code. Routing will happen on the front page pretty much instantly if
someone
comes up with a top-quality UI and the resources to make it happen. So
far
they haven't. You can have all the mailing list discussions like this
in the
world, but they don't make anything happen in themselves apart from,
usually, sapping the energy of those who _do_ code...

OSM seems pretty good at drives to raise cash. How about a drive to find 
developers to fix some of these things? It seems to me that there are a lot of 
university departments getting free geodata of the backs of OSM contributors 
efforts and it would nice if some of them gave something back.

Another benefit of a wiki style homepage might be that the top jobs needing 
developers could be exposed to a much wider audience than is the case right now.

Kevin


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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[Kevin Peat]

On 14 May 2013 11:43, Robert Scott li...@humanleg.org.uk wrote:


 We would be alpha all the way into 2016 then.

 Really, we've been told that HTML5  SVG are taking over vector graphics
 for the web for nearly 5 years now. There are still painful holes in the
 implementations. Without things like iD driving things forward browser
 vendors will have little reason to improve the situation.

 There's a limit to how long we can sit back and ooh and aah at new browser
 developments without ever actually daring to use them.


Lots of developers make the mistake of waiting for users to have a shitty
experience and then saying, Hey, you should have used it on a different
platform, and they then wonder why they get a bunch of 1-star reviews and
unhappy users.

I would imagine that most OSMers would have (at least) Firefox and
Chrome/Chromium installed. If iD doesn't work so well on Firefox yet then
why not put up a dialog at the start of a session on Firefox telling them
they would be better off using Chrome?

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[Kevin Peat]

On 14 May 2013 13:29, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:

 On 14/05/13 13:14, Kevin Peat wrote:

  I would imagine that most OSMers would have (at least) Firefox and
 Chrome/Chromium installed. If iD doesn't work so well on Firefox yet
 then why not put up a dialog at the start of a session on Firefox
 telling them they would be better off using Chrome?


 Because that makes for an appalling user experience?

 If we want to make it the default before FF seems to be up to the job then
 we'll just make FF fall back to PL2 as we will already be doing for IE.


Prior to this thread I had tried to run iD on Firefox and decided it was
way too laggy to use. If I wasn't subscribed to this list I would never try
it again. That is my idea of a poor user experience.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[Kevin Peat]

On 14 May 2013 13:36, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:


 And some of us find the conditions G$ put on chrome is a reason NOT to
 have anything to do with it. It's bad enough the pressure to change for
 spurious reasons without having OPEN projects like OSM making the same
 demands :(



Use Chromium then, seems to work well with iD.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[Kevin Peat]

Lester,

On 14 May 2013 14:30, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:


 But I'm have been more than happy with seamonkey for many years so why
 would I switch to something else just because someone thinks they know
 better :( When they get proper email support back ... there may be a reason
 to change.
 The problem here is that there are now too many browsers and none as yet
 follow the latest 'standards' fully, while many of us are still using
 set-ups that we are more than happy with and simply have no reason to
 change. iD needs to mature and get a better user base before it can be
 CONSIDERED to be made the default! We know the limitations of P2, can
 handle them and support new users. Learning something new takes time which
 many of us do not have spare.


Well that is up to you but you can't expect everyone else to stay in the
90's. I don't miss Steve Jobs very much but one useful thing he did was to
kill flash. Someone buying an iPad or a current Android tablet doesn't have
the ability to use flash and Linux support has been discontinued so I think
it's great that OSM is moving away from a flash based editor.

Also, if you dislike Google that much you probably shouldn't use
Seamonkey/Firefox as they have been by far the largest backer of the
Firefox project for years.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Usage of lanes / turn restrictions versus multiple ways when road is not divided

[Kevin Peat]

On 9 May 2013 13:06, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote:


 What do people think of this:

 http://osm.org/go/0EQSJEoZT-- (aerial: http://binged.it/10kuDNm )

 and this:

 http://osm.org/go/eu6_VCkLp-- (aerial: http://binged.it/16js1Ye )


These look good to me. I have mapped a number of junctions in a similar way.

As for traffic islands, I wouldn't create a divided highway for a 2 metre
long refuge but I probably would for a 50 metre section. If it means
anything, the other mapping providers (OS, Google) seem to do that as well.

Is there any consensus tagging scheme for providing OSM based lane guidance
and if there is does anyone know of an app that implements it?

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Review of Skobbler

[Kevin Peat]

Interesting, although Privacy-conscious Apple fanbois seems like it might
be a very small market and why do the media often call the project
OpenStreetMaps, where does that come from?

Kevin



On 3 May 2013 10:19, david da...@avoncliff.com wrote:

 http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/05/02/open_source_**mapping_skobbler/http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/02/open_source_mapping_skobbler/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Natural England Data

[Kevin Peat]

Dudley,

On 1 May 2013 19:42, Dudley Ibbett dudleyibb...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Hi

 Am I correct in assuming we cannot use this data.  It talks about OGL but
also mentions 3rd party and OS (again!!)

 http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/publications/data/


This dataset was discussed on the list before. I seem to remember most of
the data was okay to use in OSM. Search the list archive to confirm.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] the brilliant and constantly improving Wikipedia of maps

[Kevin Peat]

On 29 Apr 2013 22:01, Rovastar rovas...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Great however the OSM referenced has been shoehorned in there (not
 complaining though), as the cartographers mentioned finding the new 2000ft
 mountain just seemed to use Ordinance Surveynotably the wrong height
 appears on OSM and not updated. :(

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.81021lon=-2.60709zoom=16layers=M


What's with the feet, I thought 'ele' was supposed to be in metres?

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Permissibility of incorporating parts of an address from a business' website

[Kevin Peat]

On 25 April 2013 11:14, Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es wrote:

 The folks who drafted the EU DB directive most likely were not aware that
 in a
 near future, a person from a country A could put data about country B in a
 DB
 inside a computer in a country C...


But in their world view there will only be one country in the future so
this short-term problem goes away ;)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Dartmoor needs fixing (heath area missing a chunk)

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Jason,

On 24 April 2013 11:55, Jason Cunningham jamicu...@googlemail.com wrote:


 I think the problem is back


Is it not just a browser caching issue? Looks okay to me in Firefox and
Chromium and I took a look at the way in josm and couldn't see anything
wrong.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Dartmoor needs fixing (heath area missing a chunk)

[Kevin Peat]

Brad,

On 24 April 2013 16:17, Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote:

 Strange, as I find it to be okay on the French map, and broken on
 streetmap.org.


I assume you mean openstreetmap.org ?

Most of the time stale tiles are due to them being cached by the browser.
In Firefox you can hold down the CTRL key while clicking reload to force a
reload from the server. In Chrome/Chromium CTRL SHIFT r does the same
thing.

If a higher zoom tile doesn't automatically re-render for some reason you
can force it by (in Firefox),

   Right clicking on the tile in the slippy map and selecting View Image
   Add /dirty to the url of the image and press return
   eg. http://a.tile.openstreetmap.org/12/2006/1381.png/dirty

You should get the message Tile submitted for rendering

You can also add /status to a tile image to find out when it was last
rendered,
   eg. http://a.tile.openstreetmap.org/12/2006/1381.png/status

If none of this makes a difference to your problem then let people know as
there may be something else that needs to be investigated.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] BBC News - Google Map Maker edit tools extended to cover the UK

[Kevin Peat]

On 11 April 2013 08:12, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:

 No mention of OSM in this piece:

 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22099960


Google has been getting a free pass from the media but now they are making
hardware that may change, waiting for the Nexus sweatshop / employee
suicide stories to emerge.

It will be interesting to see if they get enough contributors to even sort
out the mess that gmaps poi's are in let alone to add buildings, etc.
Outside of a few urban centres I don't see it myself.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] NCN 28?

[Kevin Peat]

Richard,

On 9 April 2013 09:31, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

 Hi all,

 Is anyone able to verify the existence or otherwise of NCN 28 from Exeter
 to Dartmoor, as shown on OSM right now?


Ashamed to say I am not at all familiar with NCN 28 despite the low zoom
map on Sustrans site showing it coming within a couple of hundred metres of
my house.

I assume the open section they are talking about on their website is the
new path and bridge around the back of Newton Abbot racecourse which I have
ridden a couple of times and does I think have some NCN signage which must
be 28. I will check this next time I am up there unless someone else has
confirmed it already.

The South Devon Link Road construction gives rise to new cycle paths from
Newton Abbot down to Torquay which this document:

   http://www.devon.gov.uk/ldfpaper-newtonabbot.pdf

mentions as being part of NCN 28. Those paths will be finished around the
end of next year. They have recently started on the groundworks so there is
nothing to see as yet.

Torbay Council are working on some cycle paths in Paignton right now which
might become part of this but I haven't seen any signage around as yet. I
think the work has been held up a bit due to the poor weather of late.

Kevin (user: devonshire)
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Re: [Talk-GB] NCN 28?

[Kevin Peat]

Replying to my own post,

On 9 April 2013 10:44, Kevin Peat k...@k3v.eu wrote:


 I assume the open section they are talking about on their website is the
 new path and bridge around the back of Newton Abbot racecourse which I have
 ridden a couple of times and does I think have some NCN signage which must
 be 28. I will check this next time I am up there unless someone else has
 confirmed it already.


Seems as if the new path is signed as route 2 per this timely twitter post,

   https://twitter.com/CycleDevon/status/321614115296657408/photo/1

Route 28 seems to run along the Templer Way cycle path but I don't recall
seeing any specific signage along there.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM on BBC TV

[Kevin Peat]

On 8 April 2013 12:13, Gregory nomoregra...@googlemail.com wrote:

 ...I think it was this website:
 http://www.netweather.tv/indeI think it would be nice to have a wiki page
 OSM spotted in the wild or notable OSM use, 
 x.cgi?action=lightning;sess=http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=lightning;sess=


 Nothing in the credits. Is it worth looking into this?


I also noticed this, probably because I have been using the
netweather.tvsite for quite a while. Free weather radar on an OSM
basemap is pretty
cool. The website attributes OSM which I think is all that could be
expected. I don't think TV would ever be expected to attribute things which
appear fairly incidentally and if anything they should have credited
netweather rather than OSM.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Named street shown as missing on ITO OSM analysis

[Kevin Peat]

Donald,

On 29 March 2013 10:36, Donald Noble drno...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hullo all,

 Wondering if anyone can shed any light on this. I added a street/name
 following a survey a couple of weeks ago, but it is still showing as missing
 on the ITO OSM analysis map.


Should be name = Columba Terrace not service = Columba Terrace

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] prow_ref

[Kevin Peat]

Dudley,

On 29 March 2013 15:25, Dudley Ibbett dudleyibb...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Many Thanks

 I'll use the code without the county council letters as this is what is in
 the name tag in JOSM.  I'll debate as to whether to split the path number
 according to the last number as this would require quite a bit of work and
 I've still not mapped all the paths in the parish yet!


I have integrated quite a lot of the DCC prow data for South Devon and
a typical example of what I have done tagging wise is:

highway = footway
designation = public_footpath
prow_ref = Chivelstone Footpath 12
source:prow_ref = definitive_statement

I used a perl script to reformat the data beforehand so I could just
copy and paste the tag values in josm as it takes way too long to do
it manually for hundreds of prows.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 March 2013 15:00, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote:

 Currently ist's really hard for anyone (not just Europeans) to do any change
 to the mapnik style due tu its complexity. That's why nobody really works on
 it; not because they don't care but because its freaking hard to get the
 style to do exactly what you want without destroying sth. else.


The current stylesheet has been stuck for ages, even in Europe there
are a lot of useful things unrendered. How about OSMF paying someone
to complete this port? Possibly a corporate sponsor could be found or
have a kickstarter or something.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 March 2013 16:38, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:

 What makes you think money is the problem?


Money could help to speed up the process by buying time which people
may not be able to give as a volunteer. Crowd sourcing map data works
great because it is fun (for OSMers at least!) but building
stylesheets is fun for way less people so some inducement may be
required.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible Boundary Vandalism Warning

[Kevin Peat]

Colin,

On 23 March 2013 14:24, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
 Just wanted to give everyone a heads-up...

 User SemanticTourist has been very busy recently with Neighbourhood Plan
 areas, particularly in East/West Sussex, Kent and central England.
 He has been adding them to the map in a way that IMHO is not compatible with
 current practice...

I noticed these uploads in the SW. I tried to find some mention of
them on the imports page without success and I don't remember reading
anything on the lists. There is something fairly unhelpful about them
in the wiki. What use are they exactly?

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Mid Devon Mappers - on your marks...

[Kevin Peat]

On 19 March 2013 08:49, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
 In case anybody has been updating OSM by removing the apostrophes, you might
 need to put them back again...


Most of the councils down here are so strapped for cash that I have
been waiting for one of them to argue that as everyone has a satnav we
don't need to bother with road signs at all.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Build your own GPS receiver

[Kevin Peat]

Florian,

On 18 March 2013 14:32, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote:

 I'd rather go for getting your own OS running on a commercial GPS
 available e.g. the Garmins  getting you DIY GPS receiver running
 is probably not that hard - but for what purpose? It'll neither be better
 on battery life, less waterproof, less ruggedized etc.


Building your own Etrex is probably a waste of time from an OSM
perspective but would still be fun for some of us especially if the
accuracy was really good. This sort of module would also be great for
someone to build a quadcopter to get aerial images where none exist or
for other location based projects that big companies are not
interested in.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Build your own GPS receiver

[Kevin Peat]

On 18 March 2013 15:20, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote:

 Why would that be a waste of time? One could workaround e.g. replace
 the Garmin stuff and let the multitude of OSM tags be displayed,
 probably even with a user preference...


Wouldn't it be better to just start with an Android device and write a
decent app to do this stuff, the affordable Garmin hardware seems
pretty low powered with mostly small screens.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Build your own GPS receiver

[Kevin Peat]

On 18 March 2013 16:18, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote:

 Show me a smartphone with the screen turned on, gps running which lasts
 more than 3 hours...

You are right there, but I wasn't really thinking of a phone. I have a
Nexus 7 + waterproof case and *if* the screen was brighter it would
make a really good OSM device for hiking. I don't really care about 24
hour battery life as I can't walk for that long anyway.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Highways Leading to Farms and single residential properties in rural areas

[Kevin Peat]

Dudley,

On 11 Mar 2013 21:27, Dudley Ibbett dudleyibb...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Is there a correct answer for this or is it a matter of mapping style?  I
am leaning towards using Highway=Service for these and keeping
Highway=Track for tracks that link from fields to farms or roads to
fields (i.e. not from roads to farmyards or residential properties...

Modern farms are more like industrial estates with access designed for 40t
trucks and massive farm machinery so in those cases I favour
highway=service for the main farm access road even if it has a central
divide like a track might have.

Highway=track is better for typical bridleways, green lanes, etc that only
a tractor or 4x4 could use.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Dartmoor needs fixing (heath area missing a chunk)

[Kevin Peat]

On 28 Feb 2013 23:08, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote:

 ...looks excellent as a get away from it all destination...

Bring some good boots as it's pretty muddy after 6 months of rain.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Dartmoor needs fixing (heath area missing a chunk)

[Kevin Peat]

On 1 Mar 2013 13:48, Dudley Ibbett dudleyibb...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Looks like I'm missing something here as I always assumed Dartmoor was a
moor, given its name.  Is there a reason for moors being tagged as heaths?


http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/protectedsites/sacselection/sac.asp?EUcode=UK0012929

Dartmoor is often described as upland heath which I suppose is basically
what moorland is.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode data

[Kevin Peat]

Aidan,

On 27 Feb 2013 09:04, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please don't load this data into OpenStreetMap. It's not a good idea.


100% agree with Andy. To be acceptable your script would need to do at
least as good a job as mappers could do by hand which I don't think is
possible with only centroids being available. It's easy for a person to
look at a postcode overlay and spot that a postcode just applies to one
side of a street but I don't see how your script can do this with any
degree of confidence.

What I would like to see is a tool (similar to ITO's OS Locator
reconciliation) to encourage people to add more postcodes.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode data

[Kevin Peat]

Aidan,

On 27 February 2013 11:12, Aidan McGinley
 ... I've only included the highest quality data
 which is postcode centroids that fall within a building within the area of
 the postcode...

 Does that allay any concerns about the import?

Does the centroid always fall within the postcode area? I didn't
realise that was the case if true, or is there an indicator in the
dataset for that?

I still think that these kinds of things are best structured so
mappers can run them themselves against their own areas if they want
to. In that way there is always someone to check the results and to
clean-up any problems that do occur.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] road names along the A50 (and elsewhere)

[Kevin Peat]

On 20 Feb 2013 19:38, Dudley Ibbett dudleyibb...@hotmail.com wrote:

 ...I certainly wouldn't defend his attitude...


I don't know Mauls from Adam but how would you feel if you had been
contributing to the project for five years and someone you'd never heard of
sent you an unfriendly message threatening a ban for adding a name to a
road?

IMHO, individual contributors shouldn't be threatening others with bans
under any circumstances, this is what the OSMF is for.

Kevin (440k nodes)
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Re: [Talk-GB] road names along the A50 (and elsewhere)

[Kevin Peat]

On 20 Feb 2013 21:14, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote:

 ...He copied data from a local newspaper article to name a road
wrongly...

Mauls might be wrong in this case but the name of a road in the local paper
isn't copyrighted. It's a basic fact, the newspaper didn't create it and
they certainly don't own it.

If I read in the local paper that the  Blockbusters down the road has
closed down I am perfectly free to use that information to remove it from
OSM. It is just ridiculous FUD to say otherwise.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] advice for getting a newer Garmin nüvi car navigation device?

[Kevin Peat]

On 14 Feb 2013 01:10, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org

 Annoyingly, most of the cool goodies like on-screen speed limit and
overspeed alert and lane assist aren't available in the mkgmap output as
far as I can tell¹...


I have rolled my own OSM based maps for years using mkgmap for Etrex and an
old Nuvi in the car and while that is nice the lack of pretty basic SatNav
features really isn't great and doesn't look like changing anytime soon.
Navigation works on the Nuvi but doesn't always give a good route.

I think the future must be an Android or iOS app designed to work with OSM
where [data allowing] they could implement all the features expected from a
modern SatNav.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Kevin Peat]

On 13 Feb 2013 12:59, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote:

 Hello,

 Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map?

place=locality

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Kevin Peat]

On 13 Feb 2013 14:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote
 +1, place=locality is generally a generic placeholder, which
 should/could be substituted by the time we dig deeper into toponyms
 and develop more specific classes...

Well a place is just a named geographical location and I believe this tag
combination is in common usage for named junctions [it certainly is in my
part of GB where almost every crossroads is named] which as usual with OSM
trumps all those people trying to create their idealised tagging schemes.

Be sure to let everyone know when you have developed your classes ;]

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Speed limits on Garmin

[Kevin Peat]

On 11 Feb 2013 18:33, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 What's the best tool to get Garmin devices to show maxspeed on screen?
 ...

I would like to be proved wrong but AFAIK this isn't possible. You could
generate a garmin map with roads coloured by speed limit but probably not
worth the effort.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] OpenTrail - Freemap for Android

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Nick,

On 11 February 2013 12:59, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote:

 If you're interested in trying it out...


I installed the apk on a Nexus 7. The smallish downloadable packaged
maps are great and the render is nice and clear which is good for
mobile devices.

I did notice a couple of things from first use.

Had to try the map download quite a few times (mostly getting
Connection to http://www.free-map.org.uk refused) but managed to
download the SX map in the end. A download progress bar might be a
good idea for a future version as it is hard to know if anything is
happening.

Street name labels are extremely small and don't expand as you zoom in.

The POI search (only checked pubs) seems to only find those mapped as
nodes and not those mapped as areas. Search for other POI types would
also be useful (toilets, convenience stores, etc.).

highway=pedestrian doesn't appear to render.

The sea is rendered as white with just a thick blue line for the
coastline. I guess that is a feature?

Hope this is useful.

regards,
Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] OpenTrail - Freemap for Android

[Kevin Peat]

On 11 Feb 2013 18:06, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote:

  ...I'm guessing most pois have a node even if they have an area as well.

That might be the case today but I am assuming that as more buildings are
added then more and more POI's will just be areas.

Mkgmap has a feature to generate POI nodes from POI areas. Maybe you should
do something similar to just compute nodes and add them to free-map.

 - sea: this is because it would be somewhat awkward to have a blue sea
and white land...


No problem.

I have been using AFTrack on Android which has a bunch of other neat gpx
and track related features but if it ever stops raining down here I will
definitely test your app some more.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

[Kevin Peat]

On 3 Feb 2013 00:31, Tom Taylor tom.taylor.s...@gmail.com wrote:

 ...They don't contribute to the mapping that is presumably our primary
interest.


Open source projects have a philosophy about them, they are not just a pile
of data and source code. Although the term 'geocode' is not core to OSM
there are probably companies out there with trademarks and patents on
things which are. So it is important we don't just cave-in to every bully
that comes along, hence the passionate reaction to something that is really
a trivial issue.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fowey estuary coastline problem

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Jason,

On 30 January 2013 08:00, Jason Woollacott wool...@hotmail.com wrote:
 This relates to some work I did on the Cornish county boundary a while back,
 the same also has happened at Newton Ferrers, just south of Plymouth.


I had been meaning to ask you about the boundary changes you made. Is
it right that the county boundaries now go some way up the rivers? In
the case of the River Dart all the way up to Dittisham. Just seems
counterintuitive (+ also looks crap).

Kevin (user:devonshire)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fw: Fowey estuary coastline problem

[Kevin Peat]

So it seems, although the OS at least manages to limit the ugliness
factor. I wonder if there is some historical reason for it? Next time
I use the ferry I'll ask the guy to make sure he stays in Devon :]

Kevin



On 30 January 2013 11:37, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote:
 That's how it appears on OS maps, e.g.
 http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=286849Y=54821A=YZ=115

 Steve


 On 30/01/2013 10:46, Jason Woollacott wrote:

 Hi Kevin,

 Agreed, it looks wrong...  The data came from the OS Boundary Line data,
 which I took from the gpx trace from Colin's site,
 http://csmale.dev.openstreetmap.org/os_boundaryline/

 I wish I knew the reasoning behind it...   I can understand the boundary
 being at the low water mark,  but it seems very odd just to draw it across
 at Dittisham.

 Jason




 -Original Message- From: Kevin Peat
 Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:48 AM
 To: Jason Woollacott
 Cc: talk-gb
 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Fowey estuary coastline problem

 Hi Jason,

 On 30 January 2013 08:00, Jason Woollacott wool...@hotmail.com wrote:

 This relates to some work I did on the Cornish county boundary a while
 back,
 the same also has happened at Newton Ferrers, just south of Plymouth.


 I had been meaning to ask you about the boundary changes you made. Is
 it right that the county boundaries now go some way up the rivers? In
 the case of the River Dart all the way up to Dittisham. Just seems
 counterintuitive (+ also looks crap).

 Kevin (user:devonshire)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wow, Google Maps now has detailed maps for North Korea!

[Kevin Peat]

On 29 January 2013 10:58, Matt Williams li...@milliams.com wrote:
 comment.

 I tried that too and gave up. However, it's also covered by CNN

Also covered by the BBC (seems like no comments) and Map Maker also
got a good mention on BBC Radio 4 over breakfast this morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21226623

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Go Map!! is in the Apple app store

[Kevin Peat]

On 25 Jan 2013 22:20, Apollinaris Schöll ascho...@gmail.com wrote:

 have used Vespucci until a year ago. At that time the user interface was
way to complicated. I know it has improved since but cant test anymore
without a Android device.


I've used Vespucci a fair bit recently on my Nexus 7. Works great for
adding POI's or simple tag changes but not the interface for anything too
complex.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Barry,

 On 24 Jan 2013 11:38, Barry Cornelius barrycorneliu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please can you confirm that the routes are now better...


The Devon kml data looks spot on now.

thanks,
Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 23 Jan 2013 23:22, Barry Cornelius barrycorneliu...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Kevin Peat wrote:

 The Converted kml file for Devon on this page:
 http://www.rowmaps.com/kmls/DN/


 Great, thanks.  Each path has a name, e.g.:
DN Seaton Footpath 2
 It would help if you gave the names of some of the paths you have
problems with.  Sorry, I should have asked this earlier

If you look at DN Dartmouth Bridleway 1 with the OS map background you can
see it is offset a little to the south.

As I said before not a big deal.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 January 2013 09:09, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com wrote:
 highway=track, access=yes, designation=unclassified_highway

...makes sense to me for those I have seen. These tracks have no
signage at all but clearly there are public access rights which would
be nice to reflect in osm.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 Jan 2013 11:38, Barry Cornelius barrycorneliu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please can you confirm that the routes are now better...

Thanks for that. I'll check it out and let you know (will probably be
tomorrow now).

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 Jan 2013 15:02, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com wrote:

 Since the public rights of way tagging using designation=* is a very
 British (actually English and Welsh) thing, I doubt it will ever be
 rendered on the main OSM map. :-(

I don't really see why that would be the case. There must be quite a few
tags that are only popular in single countries but that still get rendered.

Using designation for legal status effectively deprecates highway=byway and
highway=bridleway so if the standard map renders don't keep up they wont be
much use for countryside users.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 23 Jan 2013 18:58, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote:


 ...

Thanks for that. Any thoughts on whether they should be specifically tagged
in OSM?

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 23 Jan 2013 19:38, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote

 Ideas welcome (I've not seen enough examples to get an understanding of
what these roads are actually like on the ground - photos ...

This is one:

http://m.google.co.uk/u/m/R9HAqI

The ones I have surveyed are glorified farm tracks with mostly gravel or
broken concrete surfaces, currently tagged as highway=track which seems
appropriate given the surface.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] PRoW surveying authorities (Was: Guidance for adding PRoW to OSM: prow_ref=)

[Kevin Peat]

On 23 Jan 2013 21:42, Barry Cornelius barrycorneliu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Which kml file are you referring to?

 Please give me a URL so that I can download the kml and check...

The Converted kml file for Devon on this page:

http://www.rowmaps.com/kmls/DN/

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] POI display on osm.org

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Roland,

On 21 January 2013 08:37, Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de wrote:
 Dear all,

 have you ever been annoyed that Mapnik doesn't render a name for a street or 
 a pub, although you are interested in?


Really nice and would be great to see it on osm.org. It is just a
shame that so many POI's are currently not rendered at all which isn't
great for mappers or map users. It would be helpful if they just had
some kind of marker so you knew there was something there without
loading an editor.



 As an extra feature, if an element has a tag value starting with http://;, 
 the headline of the element gets a hyperlink to the URL written in this tag 
 value.


Would it be possible for the website tag to always be written as a
link adding http:// if necessary where it doesn't exist?

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] POI display on osm.org

[Kevin Peat]

On 21 January 2013 13:49, Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de wrote:

 Having the icons on the map is unlikely possible, because there might be 
 simply not enough space on the Mapnik map.


Maybe so but having clickable POI's is a lot less useful if loads of
them don't render. A lot of common usages of shop (eg. shop=furniture,
shop=jewelry) don't render at all. If we have another zoom level then
I suppose a lot more of this stuff could be made visible which I think
will help greatly with maintenance.

Not your problem I know :]

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Marking landuse and field boundaries

[Kevin Peat]

On 1 Jan 2013 20:34, Richard Fairhurst richard@systeme...

 Until then, the advanced mappers must share in OSM's collective
 responsibility to keep the project editable by newbies. That's why I
believe
 widespread farm landuse mapping in the countryside is an actively harmful
 indulgence.

Couldn't disagree more. Editing complexity is an urban problem. Even with
farming landuse added rural editing has got to be an order of magnitude
easier than editing a dense city centre.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a police station not a police station?

[Kevin Peat]

On 31 December 2012 09:36, Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net wrote:
 Many police services are considering providing front counter services out of
 post offices, cafes, supermarkets!

+ libraries as they have done in my town.


 I would suggest that we continue to use amenity=police both for police
 stations and for police amenities placed in other buildings (like front
 counters in fire stations).

I am not sure that makes sense. A police admin office with no public
facing services is not a police station as most people would
understand it. Maybe office=police (or something similar) would be
better for those locations.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Footpath segmentation

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Bill,

On 30 December 2012 22:52, Bill Chadwick bill.chadwi...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would be interested to hear how council released prow data has / has not
 been used within OSM to add to or replace existing contributed path data.
 Hants and Devon have released PROW data but sadly many of the paths in the
 New Forest and Dartmoor are not PROW (black dashes on the OS 1:50K). It
 would be good to use a blend of OSM and council data in such areas but I am
 unsure how to avoid duplicate paths if there are paths in OSM not tagged as
 PROW.


Anyone who has used the OS Dartmoor maps will know that they contain
rights of way across the open moor that don't actually exist as paths
on the ground and I can see some of them in this data. So although the
dataset may be useful I don't think anyone who doesn't know the areas
concerned should just try to blindly integrate it with what we already
have.

I also just checked a couple of sections of the SW Coastal Path near
me and the accuracy of the path in the dataset is pretty poor compared
to what we already have which is disappointing.

Kevin (user:devonshire)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Marking landuse and field boundaries

[Kevin Peat]

Steven,

On 31 Dec 2012 21:19, Steven Horner ste...@stevenhorner.com wrote:

 I mapped a small area with landuse and some fences months ago but
refrained from doing anymore because not many others appear to be doing it.
You can see what I did here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.72508907318115lon=-1.7569917440414429zoom=17


From just a quick glance your fields look okay but the names of the roads
and woods should be capitalised (not sure if you mapped those as well).

If you enjoy adding fields keep doing so. There may not be many now but I
expect more people will add them in the future when their areas are
complete for roads, buildings, etc.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Added road schemes announced in the Autumn Statement in OSM

[Kevin Peat]

On Dec 10, 2012 1:25 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote

 No. We should be mapping physical objects...

There are plenty of non-physical objects mapped in OSM but I don't see the
point of adding road schemes to the db before contracts are awarded.  The
South Devon Link Road near me was in the planning stage for more than 25
years before work started and having proposed routes in OSM for such long
periods wouldn't benefit anyone.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] fences, trees and houses

[Kevin Peat]

On 21 November 2012 09:23, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 I wouldn't have tagged the driveways with access=private unless there
 was a sign that actually says so. Not because of any rendering issue,
 but because I am lazy and it doesn't really add any information.


I think service=driveway should infer access=destination unless
explicitly set otherwise. You should only use access=private where
signed. If you start tagging people's driveways as private then you
also need to use it for any way where there is no legal public right
of way such as in tourist attractions, on private ground, etc. which
makes no sense at all as you just end up with huge amounts of stuff
tagged as private.

If the missing buildings were added then the map would be less
confusing as the purpose of the driveways would then be apparent.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Problem with an Etrex 20

[Kevin Peat]

On Nov 19, 2012 7:32 PM, Tim Waters chippy2...@gmail.com wrote:

 The supplied cable is a small one, about 1ft long, if that helps.

Same here, I have a 20 and it only mounts with the supplied cable which is
about 15cm.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Data copied from Google Maps

[Kevin Peat]

On 6 November 2012 09:28, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
 A public domain street sign does not become automagically a
 copyrighted derivative work just because you see it through a
 copyrighted photo. And this is true worldwide, not only in some
 countries.

Isn't the real point that regardless of the legal situation we would
not like Google (and others) to rip-off OSM so we should not rip them
off in return. It is just basic respect at the end of the day.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] FW: Office of National Statistics data

[Kevin Peat]

On 31 October 2012 18:14, Brian Quinion
openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote:

 Making this sort of distinction (what can have a postcode) is incredibly
 difficult - for instance NCP carparks do have a postcode.


Shame about that, but if someone does a full postcode search and there
are OSM objects tagged with that exact postcode then wouldn't it be
better just to return those objects or at least have them at the top
of the list?

In my case there are 3 buildings tagged with the full postcode but
when I search for it they appear below an entry for the suburb of the
town which I think if shown at all should be further down the list.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] FW: Office of National Statistics data

[Kevin Peat]

On 31 October 2012 14:50, Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net wrote:
 I think this is quite a confusing approach. Post code searches often end up
 returning the wrong street that is also near the centroid, houses that don't
 belong to that post code that happen to be nearby, and also weird objects
 like trees and car club parking bays.

+1 on that. When I search for my own postcode, as well as the
buildings actually tagged with it the pub car park next door is also
returned and a nearby unclassified road neither of which have a
postcode set. I think in a postcode search it would be better not to
return things that could never have a postcode.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] importing house shapes

[Kevin Peat]

On Oct 16, 2012 9:15 PM, Adam Hoyle adam.li...@dotankstudios.com wrote:

 Hi Talk-GB,

 Sorry if I'm posting on the wrong list.

 ...I have a huge preference for Potlatch over JOSM...

You can get therapy for that :]

In JOSM you can press Q after drawing a building to cure the wobbles, not
sure if Potlatch has something similar.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Who is a good mapper? Who isn't?

[Kevin Peat]

On 10 October 2012 21:22, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 What are the results?
 ...
 The most common comment quality is 18.
 Half of all accounts have comment quality from 13 to 36.
 Bots usually have comment quality under one.


Equating changeset comment quality with mapper quality is total BS.
Descriptive comments are helpful to other mappers but that is all.
They don't tell you anything about the quality of the changes.

I think that in well mapped areas if your contributions persist over
time then probably you are a good mapper. If your changesets are
frequently reverted or your contributions are quickly edited by others
then probably not.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Garmin eTrex 30 - just reduced on amazon

[Kevin Peat]

On Oct 8, 2012 3:15 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
  today..
  Garmin eTrex 30 Outdoor Handheld GPS Unit £157.49

 Thanks Peter. I've been humming and hahing (however it is spelled)
 for ages about whether to get one or not. So I now have, via the
 Amazon link here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon
 and added a bike mount to the order (self-justified by the price
 reduction, so effectively a freebie).

I have owned a 20 for quite a while and subjectively the accuracy seems
better than the hcx I had before. Not sure if that is due to the glonass
support or just a more modern chipset. The interface hasn't improved much,
if at all.  I preferred the cycling of pages on the older models to the
back button used on the new ones. My hcx bike mount had an irritating
rattle which the new one doesn't have so I guess that is an improvement.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging the source

[Kevin Peat]

On 28 September 2012 15:13, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 yes, but often when something is wrong, the source-tag is as well ;-).
 I have seen lots of source=PSG (coastline) where the data obviously
 was far too detailed to be from PSG, it is because people hardly
 remove those (meanwhile unvalid) source-tags.


Agree on that. There is lots of UK data with source=NPE or PGS that
has obviously been subsequently adjusted from Bing or elsewhere,
probably done this myself many times and forgotten to change the
source tag.

That's why I would prefer some automation. If I have Bing and an OS
based layer open and active in JOSM then I don't see a problem with
automatically adding those as sources to the changeset. Those tags
should then be visible when retrieving object history. Mappers could
still override that with source tags on the objects if required.

Kevin

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Re: [Talk-GB] Donington Park

[Kevin Peat]

Haven't been to Donington for a couple of years but the only recent
change to the track itself that I am aware of is them moving the final
chicane back a few metres as shown in this image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donington_as_of_2010.svg

Kevin



On 8 May 2012 14:29, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote:
 (on a different mailing list) Philip Barnes wrote:


 Very true, and it really grates hearing Donington Park refered to as
 being in Derbyshire.


 Seeing that, I had a look to see if anyone had managed to get the current
 circuit layout for Donington in yet.  Unfortunately they haven't, and the
 Bing imagery's fairly antique (it still has the Dunlop Bridge, which hasn't
 been there for several years).

 Surely there must be some OSMers who are or know track day enthusiasts?  We
 can't all be lentil munching cyclists, surely? :-)

 Cheers,
 Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] On footpaths

[Kevin Peat]

On 5 May 2011 11:41, Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote:

  getting people interested in (say) the southwest?

  area, and the National Parks. Time for some footpath parties, or
 There's me, living just off Exmoor.  Time limited, but I do what I can.


Ditto myself, around Torbay and on Dartmoor. We'll have to try and get those
surfer dudes up on the north coast to go out mapping when there are no
waves.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Skip geographical (redundant) address tags

[Kevin Peat]

On 3 May 2011 15:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:



 You seem to imply that relations are faster / less manual work
 requiring when entering addresses manually with one of the OSM
 editors, but from my own experience they require at least the same
 (manual) work, if not more.


+1

It couldn't be easier (in JOSM at least) to select a bunch of buildings and
add the tags once. If you use a relation you must create it and add the
members + tags to it so it is hard to see how that can ever be easier for
the mapper which is generally what OSM is all about.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

[Kevin Peat]

On 16 April 2011 17:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Isn't it funny how, just over a year ago, we couldn't care less about
 anything the Ordnace Survey did, and suddenly we are a project that must
 choose their license according to what is compatible with OS?

...

I say to you the same I said to Ian - even if OSMF would publish what
 mechanism they plan to use (and I'm pretty sure they don't have one yet),
 then that mechanism would not become part of the contract and it could be
 changed at any later time, say, after majorities in the OSMF board have
 changed after the next election or something.


No-one expects the OSMF/LWG to have all the answers worked out in advance
but surely someone can answer questions about what their intentions are.
Such as is it the LWG's intention to make the license/ct's compatible with
OS Opendata? If it isn't then all those people currently tracing thousands
of roads a week in the UK might as well take a break and get some fresh air.

After so many years, someone must surely have given at least a bit of
thought to how removing incompatible/un-relicensed contributions might be
handled? What's wrong with starting a thread with those ideas and letting
other people give their input?

I am quite prepared to trust people who I feel are being honest about their
intentions but the lack of information just gives the impression that
something underhand is in the works. I can imagine it would be easy for
those people who believe cc-by-sa doesn't apply to map data to justify
re-adding any deleted contributions on the basis that most of it is
effectively pd. I just think that would be a really bad idea as far as
maintaining any kind of community trust goes.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

[Kevin Peat]

On 16 April 2011 19:42, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 If people are indeed doing that then I would *definitely* suggest the fresh
 air option, no matter what we intend to do license-wise; see recent imports
 discussion on talk-gb (Adding a further 250,000 roads quickly using a
 Bot).

 Over 2 ways were added in Britain in the last month (per ITO) and I
would think a fair proportion of these must be coming from the OS data.

...

 Most of what I wrote here hasn't been formally said by anyone in OSMF, but
 OSMF haven't fully thought this through either, and the above is simply the
 logical course to take given all the conditions and plans that *have* been
 discussed.


 Thanks for your thoughtful answer. It is certainly a lot more detailed than
anything I have read before. My first impression is how can a process with
so many grey areas possibly result in a cleanly licensed dataset?

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] stat pr0n

[Kevin Peat]

On 13 April 2011 15:32, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:

 Where to start. There's the obvious ones like most active contributor per
 region, first 100 nodes / ways (that persist), one /two/five-year
 contribution anniversary, first dog waste disposal bag dispenser in your
 home town, etc.
 Also: badges tied to project of the week. The World Mapper badge for
 mapping on all continents.


Just rip off foursquare they have badges for everything.


 One of the many challenges with badges is that you want to encourage
 *quality* mapping, not just quantity. Listen to the 'competition' episode of
   This Developer's Life podcast[1] to hear what StackOverflow's Jeff Atwood
 has to say on the matter.


I think the competition for the Most Pointless Import badge would be
pretty intense.

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-talk] We Need to Stop Google's Exploitation of Open Communities

[Kevin Peat]

On 11 April 2011 20:14, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote:

 Of course, its not about the license at all - if you appeal to fans of
 licenses you'll attract nobody. Google will take potential users by
 providing an awesome end product; the sort if thing everyone can appreciate.
 Make some awesome mapping products and you'll attract plenty of contributors
 and you'll be able to leave licensing talk to the nerds, presumably just as
 Google plans.

 Agreed. Most OSMers don't care about the license so why would people in the
developing world?

Being critical of Google serves no purpose. They aren't forcing people to
contribute to their products. gmaps is cool and everybody uses it so people
naturally want to see their street, business, etc. on there.

We should concentrate on making OSM a better competitor. A couple of things
I can think of:

- Why do so many people create OSM accounts but then just do a few edits or
none at all? How about a poll directed to those people to try and get to the
root of the problem? Is it the editors or the help available or something
else?

- A lot of effort has gone into making Potlatch and JOSM the powerful tools
that they are but if you are in a developing country with just a mobile
phone or a low spec laptop with a crappy internet connection they are going
to suck. How would someone in that situation contriibute to OSM?

Kevin
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Compliance timeline

[Kevin Peat]

On 8 April 2011 11:38, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Ed,

 transfer rights to the OSMF

 I believe that this is the (only) critical issue. To be open contributions
 need to be given freely and without restriction, so as to avoid the current
 situation where some contributors (with varying agendas) seem to be holding
 OSM to ransom by threatening not to relicence their contributions.

 The contributors aren't doing anything it is the OSMF that is holding the
data to ransom.


 This need to be finalised sooner rather than later so that OSM mapping can
 recommence.

The current license has worked well for many years with significant
transgressors (Google, Waze et al) respecting it. I would prefer OSM worked
with Creative Commons on 4.0 rather than deleting contributions.



 As to which licence we run under, it doesn't matter to me at all, since I
 believe it should be public domain anyway.  I'll leave that for others to
 bicker about but full rights to the data by the project is essential, in my
 opinion.



I read recently (not sure if true) that Libreoffice in their fork from
Openoffice had abandoned CT's and seen a big increase in contributors. I
wonder if introducing CT's will have the opposite impact on OSM.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapdust Newbie Question

[Kevin Peat]

On 29 March 2011 17:14, Kev js1982 o...@kevswindells.eu wrote:

 I think the roundabout symbol is where the user raised the bug - MapDust
 seams a rather apt name in my experience though - Dust doesn't serve any
 useful purpose  (in reality) and neither does mapdust's bugs.

 Kev


Despite the low signal to noise ratio I actually find mapdust quite
encouraging as it is obvious that normal members of the public are using the
maps which can only be a good thing for OSM. I would like the developers to
get rid of the other issue type which is pretty useless and also try to
differentiate between problems with the map data and problems with the
skobbler app itself.

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapdust Newbie Question

[Kevin Peat]

Well I find it encouraging that people are using OSM otherwise what is the
point of us making it? The fact they are too stupid to work a satnav is
probably true as most members of the crowd are unfortunately idiots. The
mapdust folks just need to take that into account by stopping people raising
bugs with no descriptions or vague bug types.

Despite that I have picked up a couple of missing turn restrictions and some
missing speed limits in my area so I think it has value even if you have to
search for it.

Kevin


On 29 March 2011 18:40, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:


  Despite the low signal to noise ratio I actually find mapdust quite
 encouraging as it is obvious that normal members of the public are using the
 maps...


 Are you certain about that?

 I get the impression many are automatic sends (default fault descriptions)
  random positioning (accidentally pressed touch screens).
 I've seen many 'wrong turn indicated' messages in residential areas, that I
 suspect have been sent in error by users when handling their phone after
 they've parked their car.

 Dave F.



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Re: [OSM-talk] the coastline

[Kevin Peat]

to the list as well

On 22 Mar 2011 16:58, Kevin Peat ke...@kevinpeat.com wrote:


 On 22 Mar 2011 10:41, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote:
 
  Robin's point stands - should we mark the low water mark and the high
  water mark and render the littoral zone differently?
  I guess it is part of the micro-mapping initiative which is popular on
  the tagging list.
 
 
  There is a proposal at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Water_cover  for water
= tidal, which defines the zone between low and high water

 I have used tidal=yes to mark the tidal parts of beaches, rivers, paths,
etc. It has ~5000 uses per taginfo so I guess other people are using it as
well.

 Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] inferred single-carriageway NSL?

[Kevin Peat]

On 16 March 2011 17:00, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote:




 Then there are the '30mph' which should for consistency be '30 mph' (with a
 space).


I don't see the point of editing just for consistency. Developers should
handle leading/trailing spaces, or the lack thereof, and different
capitalisation, as without any input validation the data will always be
inconsistent.




 Finally, I have a technical question on speed limits. What exactly is a
 dual carriageway? Are the slip-roads between two dual carriageways also dual
 carriageways (and therefore have 70mph limits) or are they not and are they
 therefore 60mph limits? Similarly for short sections where a single
 carriageway road divides for a short section.


I am also curious about this. There is a dual carriageway near me that has 3
roundabouts along its length. Two of the roundabouts have signed 40mph
limits but the third one has no signed limit. I assume the limit for that
roundabout is 60mph?

Kevin
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Re: [Talk-GB] inferred single-carriageway NSL?

[Kevin Peat]

He added these tags to some dual carriageway in my area that already had
speed limit tags. I was just going to delete them as they seem pointless.
Anyone know otherwise?

Kevin

On 13 Mar 2011 12:28, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:

 Hi

 You've probably seen the numerous edits by chriscf. Can anyone explain the
purpose of these edits  what the the tags below even mean?
 I've had no reply to an email sent to him a couple of days ago

 In my locality, each of his edits already had a maxspeed (with units) tag
accurately mapped by people on the ground. I don't understand what these
extra tags add to the OSM's quality

 I'm most concerned about the 'inferred' references, which, to me, is no
better than guessing; something that should not be a part of OSM.

 Comment: units in speed limts, add/remove special road status, attempt
to infer NSL status

 Tags:
 FIXME:nsl = inferred single-carriageway NSL - remove this tag once
verified
 source:maxspeed = UK:nsl_single

 Cheers
 Dave F.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Zero tolerance on imports

[Kevin Peat]

Russ,

You are spot on with this. I don't think UK contributors would currently be
madly tracing OS data into OSM if it was easy to produce a complete UK map
from OSM surveyed data with the missing bits filled in from the OS dataset.
Until better tools are available people are going to keep importing stuff
regardless of the ultimate benefit to the project.

Kevin


On 6 March 2011 17:39, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:


 That's because nobody is talking about the REAL
 solution. OpenStreetMap is the place for user-edited volunteered
 geographic information. It's NOT the place for importing information
 which would be nonsensical if a user edited it. snip

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Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline updates

[Kevin Peat]

Is there any reason to still have the NPE layer accessible from the editors.
It was useful in the pre-OS/Bing days but seems like a liability now?

Kevin



On 25 February 2011 17:47, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:

   I have edited coastlines in Cornwall last summer and they are
 still
  not
   updated on the main map. (Easy to see because the border and
  coastline
   share the same location in the data but show up differently on
 the
  map.)
  
 
  Can you gave an example location?

 I had a quick look around the coastline, but the first couple of
 discrepancies I found are recent edits (one was 6th February, the
 other in January
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/95126825 - this one I found
 interesting as the coastline that was based on the boundary has been
 updated to NPE which is over 50 years old)

 Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] Zero tolerance on imports

[Kevin Peat]

Peter,

The point isn't whether or not your tool will create correct route relations
but what the point of doing that would be. I can understand creating route
relations for long distance cycling/hiking paths that people actually want
to navigate and historic routes (Route 66 comes to mind as a non-American)
but what is the point of creating a route relation for every highway?

No-one gets up in the morning and decides to navigate State Highway 483
from one end to the other and even if they did a decent routing engine could
create the route on the fly, so adding it to OSM is a waste of time and
would just add pointless complexity to the data-set.

Kevin




On 21 February 2011 16:58, Peter Budny pet...@gatech.edu wrote:

 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes:

  Hi,
 
  On 02/21/2011 04:03 PM, Peter Budny wrote:
  Those of you who think all automated or semi-automated data
  contributions are harmful to OSM are dooming this project to never be
  able to grow to become a leading source of mapping data.
 
  It is a common fallacy to believe that good map data could somehow,
  magically, be produced from computers that evaluate GPS tracks, camera
  recordings, or aerial imagery.
 
  If this were possible, then Google et al. would be 10 times as good at
  doing it as we are.

 Google, like Waze, has both historic and real-time traffic data
 automatically generated by millions people with mobile phones.  So in at
 least some ways, they ARE 10 times better than OSM.

  The strength of OSM is the people on the ground. If you try to
  eliminate them from the equation

 Whoa, who said anything about eliminating people?  What I'm saying is
 that we should find ways to integrate human editors with automated or
 semi-automated tools, so that humans can delegate the tedious work to
 computers and spend more time doing things that can't be handled by
 computers.

  Last year, as part of a school project, I built a robot that will
  automatically create route relations for all the state highways in the
  US, being careful not to change or duplicate existing data.
 
  [...]
 
  The code would be in use already if not for a few people running around
  panicking about my devil-robot and its witchcraft.
 
  Maybe you haven't been able to demonstrate the added value your
  mechanical edit would bring to the database?

 The value is that
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kentucky#State_routes would show
 route relations for all 6000+ state routes in Kentucky, instead of
 7... and then I could use the same code to finish the other 49 states in
 the US.  And then with minor modifications, I could use the same code in
 other countries.

 As an analogy, we store OSM's source code in Subversion and Git, and let
 those tools compare files when we make a change.  Could this be done by
 hand?  Of course.  But why would you want to?  You would produce the
 same result (actually, you're more likely to make a mistake than the
 computer).  Yes, sometimes the tools come upon situations they can't
 handle, and have to let a human intervene, but they relieve us of the
 tedious bits.

 Some people look at OSM and say, It needs more tools.  Some people
 say, It needs less tools.  Consider me firmly in the first camp.

  I mean, if it can be
  determined by a robot, then surely it would be redundant to have it in
  the data again?

 First, your reasoning is specious.  Consider a shopping receipt: what's
 the added value to listing a subtotal and total, when these could be
 trivially computed by summing the items purchased and subtracting the
 amount paid?

 Second, the robot's contributions would not be perfect... but then
 again, neither are mine.  I've never drive down Kentucky State Highway
 483, so any edits I make to it are merely the best I can do given what's
 already in OSM.  But if I see tiger:name_base=State Highway 483, I'm
 going to put it in a relation with the other ways that match it.  A
 robot can do exactly the same thing, only a lot more efficiently than I
 can.

 And before you counter... no, I don't think it's pointless or wrong to
 edit a part of the map I've never been to.  If I (or anyone else) ever
 DOES go there, it would be nice to have already improved the map as much
 as possible, rather than letting it remain a completely unedited jumble
 or void.
 --
 Peter Budny  \
 Georgia Tech  \
 CS MS student  \

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Re: [OSM-talk] Zero tolerance on imports

[Kevin Peat]

You don't need a route relation to do that just a ref tag.

Kevin


On 21 February 2011 17:40, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:


 Navigation, for starters : turn-by-turn indications are improved by being
 able to mention turn left on route 35.

 Besides, it is static geographic data which fits OpenStreetMap's basic
 purpose, so as long as it does not step on anyone's toes it is relevant even
 if there is only one user.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Zero tolerance on imports

[Kevin Peat]

Peter,

I have nothing against automated edits in general as long as they are
useful, are tested properly and don't overwrite other people's efforts
without agreement. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I think the
difficulty in contacting contributors in an area makes that hard to do.

I am not interested in contributing to Waze but I have skimmed their forums
out of curiosity and they don't seem to have any answers to these problems
as far as I can see. They may have traction in the US but the Waze map of
the UK looks like it was drawn by a five year-old.

In the case of Josh Doe's centreline data if he can't do it himself he
should try to team up with someone who can produce a tool to compare the
highway geometries in the two data-sets and take it from there. Maybe you
could give him a hand with that or know someone who might help?

Kevin




On 21 February 2011 18:03, Peter Budny pet...@gatech.edu wrote:

 Okay, even if we accept that -- and many OSM mappers do not, which is
 why there are tens of thousands of route relations in the database --
 who is going to add all those ref tags?

 You haven't addressed the original problem, which is that there is a lot
 of editing to be done, some of which is tedious and easily performed by
 computers.

 ~ Peter Budny

 Kevin Peat ke...@kevinpeat.com writes:

  You don't need a route relation to do that just a ref tag.
 
  Kevin
 
  On 21 February 2011 17:40, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:
 
  Navigation, for starters : turn-by-turn indications are improved by
 being
  able to mention turn left on route 35.
 
  Besides, it is static geographic data which fits OpenStreetMap's
 basic
  purpose, so as long as it does not step on anyone's toes it is
 relevant
  even if there is only one user.
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Zero tolerance on imports

[Kevin Peat]

This is a very good point. In the past I have thought about contacting the
mappers active in a particular area but it's a pain in the a*se to do
something that should be trivial. The current OSM messaging system could
really do with a bit more social thinking not just relying on users adding
their names to wiki pages that most people probably don't even know exist.

Quite a few areas are covered these days by user groups or dedicated mailing
lists. It might be a good idea if those areas were stored and then when
someone starts mapping in the area then JOSM/Potlatch/etc. could pop up a
box saying you should check out the Wiki/Website for the group, where they
could state their views on things like imports.

Kevin








On 20 February 2011 09:06, Daniel Sabo daniels...@gmail.com wrote:


 The other issue is that the community is hard to communicate with

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Re: [Talk-GB] Incorrect use of OS VectorMap District when mapping?

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Jason,

I am the mapper (user:devonshire) who imported the woods in your first
example around Dartmouth but it was last May so not exactly recently. The
woods that are there now are a lot better than the NPE traced ones that we
had before. I took the view at the time that importing the VectorMap data
would be a major improvement.

Since the Bing imagery (old as it is) became available I am not sure why
anyone would bother importing VectorMap woods as it is a lot less hassle to
trace from Bing and just take the names from the OS StreetView. Ultimately I
will probably replace the OS sourced data but it isn't a big priority for me
right now. Feel free if you have nothing better to do.

The VectorMap data for streams is good especially as they are virtually
impossible to survey well on the ground. Filling in the blanks may seem like
a good idea but whether it is a track bridging the stream, the stream is
piped or just disappears for a bit (as often happens in wetland areas) is
hard to know without a survey.

Kevin







On 9 February 2011 18:42, Jason Cunningham jamicu...@googlemail.com wrote:

 OS VectorMap District is an excellent source of data for features like
 streams and woodland, but these layers of data tend to be a bit of a mess
 and need to be stitched together as part of a method in importing into OSM.
 eg Streams will end when they meet a bridge, then reappear the other side
 of the bridge, so for OSM you need to link all the separate sections of the
 streams into one long stream

 Started to notice that the VectroMap District data in its raw state has
 started to appear in the map, from more than one mapper
 http://osm.org/go/erduA_U9K--
 http://osm.org/go/eugeBnUca-
 You can see stream are broken presumably at locations of bridges, and
 woodland has strips missing presumably along paths (and is also made up of
 several sections if you look at it in an editor)

 Doesn't appear to be guidance in the wiki about how to deal with VectorMap
 District. I just want to check I'm right in thinking this is the wrong way
 to go about it? If so I'll try and write up some guidance in the wiki.

 Jason


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Re: [Talk-GB] Adding a further 250, 000 UK roads quickly using a Bot?

[Kevin Peat]

I agree with you 100% on this. I think if OSM is street-level complete
(preferably with postcodes as well) then it will be picked up by a lot more
developers for their iPhone and Android apps and the amount of feedback we
could get would be a 100 times greater than now. A standardised, OSM hosted,
bug reporting api could also be offered to developers so they don't end up
building their own versions of MapDust.

Kevin




On 4 February 2011 01:14, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote:


 Also, we are getting some of the most comprehensive on the ground
 verification and improvement reports from applications like the Sat-Nav
 Skobbler bugs with MapDust. The more complete the map is, the more people
 will use things like that and give feedback on errors.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Adding a further 250, 000 UK roads quickly using a Bot?

[Kevin Peat]

Richard,

I don't think we need a bot for this as the current tools seem quite
adequate to me. If the missing streets are added this year then that would
be great.

Building a community is ideal but I think outside the successful parts of
the country we are not going to get a lot of people wanting to do ground
surveys of whole towns. Mapping is a geeky activity and in large parts of
the SW, Wales and the North there just aren't that many of those people
about.

As I said before I think the only realistic approach in those areas is to
get the maps onto as many devices as we can (for which they need to be
street level complete) and then cultivate feedback from satnav/smartphone
users to add some richness to the data. Hopefully some of those people would
join the OSM community along the way.

Kevin





On 4 February 2011 12:15, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:


 Can't we actually have a go at doing it ourselves and finishing the UK this
 year? Say right, let's look at a bot in spring 2012, but we have a year to
 get this right? I'll do a town this weekend if you will.

 cheers
 Richard


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 View this message in context:
 http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Adding-a-further-250-000-UK-roads-quickly-using-a-Bot-tp5986539p5992349.html
 Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Talk-GB] pay_scale_area

[Kevin Peat]

I don't think this data serves any useful purpose. The polygon for my area
cut right across the middle of arbitrary areas so I deleted it a long time
ago. I've never had any feedback on that so assume no-one was using it.

Kevin






On 2 February 2011 10:40, Bob Kerr openstreetmapcraigmil...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:

 Hi,

 I am presently doing some tracing in Dumfries and there is a way which is
 marked public_transport=pay_scale_area. It is part of a Naptan import. The
 area seems to be vague and is cutting across a number of areas where I am
 doing some detailed work.

 Is there a good reason that this should still be kept?

 Cheers

 Bob


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Re: [OSM-talk] Why I don't use JOSM (was Re: Non-map-based OSM editor)

[Kevin Peat]

+1 on this idea

I have used josm since I started with osm but still end up clicking fairly
randomly on these icons. A menu would be way better.

Kevin

 On 24 Jan 2011 22:41, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

2011/1/24 Sebastian Klein basti...@googlemail.com:

 Anthony wrote:

 If I take notes of which parts I find least intuitive (the parts I
 have to...
I'd like to recall an UI-idea already mentioned some years ago: get
rid of the icons in the lower left and have the windows/tabs on the
right turned on and off with a new menu on the top: windows or
similar. This is IMHO how most programs handle this. These icons tend
to be confusing for beginners and the more plugins you have installed,
the worse it gets (you have to scroll because they have filled up the
left border).

cheers
Martin


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Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids

[Kevin Peat]

Hello Chris,

I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode
centroids to the map?

There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me
to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding
the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in
navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their
satnavs?

Kevin



On 20 January 2011 18:17, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote:

 Now that people are tracing buildings from Bing etc addressing is getting
 more widespread, but one awkward area is postcodes. The Open data that OS
 released last year included the Code Point Open dataset which has the
 location of postcode centroids. These can help with adding postcodes to
 addresses.

 I have created an overlay from the postcode centroids. You can see it here
 http://codepoint.raggedred.net/ One way to use this is as an overlay in an
 editor. Blackadder has added how to set this up in JOSM on the wiki page
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ordnance_Survey_Opendata#Code-Point_OpenIt 
 also works in Potlatch 2.

 I have only loaded some of the postcode areas so far. You can see these on
 the wiki page:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Chillly/codepoint

 Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value of
 that. I am interested in the experience people gain from using this data,
 for example to add postcodes to an address such as addr:postcode.

 --
 Cheers, Chris
 user: chillly


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Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids

[Kevin Peat]

So I should delete the various admin boundaries in the db then as they
cannot be viewed on the ground?

That's great for Nominatim but what if I want to find a postcode on my
Garmin?

Kevin




On 21 January 2011 09:58, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:


 Because postcode centroids are not real - they don't exist so fail the
 ground truth rule.

 As I understand things the new version of Nominatim that is coming up
 will search the OpenData postcode data (and various other postcode
 databases for other countries) directly anyway.

 Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids

[Kevin Peat]

Hi Ed,

With the advent of Bing tracing and OS Opendata I wouldn't be surprised if
we had all the roads in Britain complete this year even in the areas where
there are never going to be many mappers on-the-ground. But house numbers
cannot be added remotely so it might take another 10 years for all that data
to be added by local people. In the meantime it would be nice to be able to
make a postcode search.

Kevin



On 21 January 2011 10:03, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:

 I can’t speak for Chris, but I don’t see any point in just adding the
 centroids to the map as any satnav application already has access to that
 data and can even keep it updated easier by keeping it separate and just
 replacing the Opendata source file each time a new version is released.



 I’m still not absolutely convinced that if we have all the roads and house
 numbers that postcodes are even necessary (other than for satnav users who
 are in the habit of entering them). Searching for the address should find it
 with or without the postcode being present. I can see they might be useful
 to distinguish between two roads with the same name in the same town, but I
 think that is fairly rare.



 Ed



 *From:* Kevin Peat [mailto:ke...@kevinpeat.com]
 *Sent:* 21 January 2011 09:52
 *To:* Chris Hill
 *Cc:* Talk-GB
 *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids



 Hello Chris,

 I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode
 centroids to the map?

 There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me
 to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding
 the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in
 navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their
 satnavs?

 Kevin



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Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids

[Kevin Peat]

Chris,

I'll go with the flow on this, there isn't much point adding stuff to the db
where there isn't a consensus. My postcode area is TQ so if you could add
this to the layer that would be great, it would be useful for tagging
buildings anyway.

Kevin



On 21 January 2011 11:46, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote:

 On 21/01/11 09:51, Kevin Peat wrote:

 Hello Chris,

 I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode
 centroids to the map?

 There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me
 to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding
 the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in
 navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their
 satnavs?

 Kevin

 As others have said, the postcode centroids are completely artificial. I
 believe they were included as part of the Open Data as a way of giving some
 address information out without giving away the real address file data that
 would have been much more useful. Clearly OS  RM did not want to give any
 of this data away, they make money from it. They were forced to give some
 Open Data, so the fudged, soft detail of Street View and the postcode
 centroids are the result.

 The overlay is intended for anyone to use to assist with adding postcodes
 to OSM objects by referring to the centroids without adding them.

 I will add more data over time, but if anyone would like specific areas
 (e.g. HU) adding first please speak up.

 --
 Cheers, Chris
 user: chillly


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