Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Paweł Paprota]

You are mixing so many different topics and misconceptions that I think
you basically don't know what you're talking about.
Perhaps you should read up on what is Java first...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Java_implementations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language

etc.

Paweł


On Sun, Apr 22, 2018, at 22:06, john whelan wrote:
> JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent
> a number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.
> A number of sales people's statements about their licensing were
> dubious and inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.> Having said that 
> if we look at the requirements then we'd like the
> ability to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes
> it can be run but Apple don't especially like you running it.> 
> We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These
> days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is
> too much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.> We have a lot of 
> existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have
> a lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and
> documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in
> people time.> Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it 
> needs a
> more powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.> I have no 
> instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to
> think things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a
> major security hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is
> not known to be highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens
> what is the impact?> It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by 
> running in a
> separate user account but that too complicated for many of our users
> to configure.  Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep
> their machines safe?> Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec  wrote:
>> End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a
>> version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8
>> and Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will
>> only work with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run
>> JOSM build 10526 on Java 7. Source: having done just that,
>> yesterday).>> 
>> No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
>> Cheers,
>> Jan "Piskvor" Martinec 
>> 
>> Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan 
>> napsal:>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html
>>> It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term
>>> Support means no new versions per three years.>>> 
>>> " Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as
>>> game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date
>>> commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the
>>> updates.>>> 
>>>  Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC,
>>>  will continue until the end of 2020.>>> 
>>>  As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support)
>>>  model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the
>>>  current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the
>>>  end of a three year LTS cycle.  ">>> Cheerio John
>>> 
>>> On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny 
>>> wrote:
 On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400 john whelan
  wrote:

  > Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to
  > be out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free
  > licenses to expire.

 Source?>>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] GeoServer and OpenStreetMap

[Paweł Paprota]

I used a similar approach (osm2pgsql and connecting that as data source
in GeoServer) in the past, also IIRC I used mapnik2geotools script to
convert one of the Mapnik OSM styles to SLD, worked out quite well.

Paweł

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 17:51, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> On 2016-09-29 9:19 AM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> > Has anyone here put OSM data into GeoServer.
> >
> > Is there a primer somewhere to help me along the way.
> >
> >
> 
> I have not with GeoServer, but I did document my steps with MapServer 
> and OSM data: 
> https://github.com/mapserver/mapserver/wiki/RenderingOsmDataWindows
> 
> -jeff
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff McKenna
> MapServer Consulting and Training Services
> http://www.gatewaygeomatics.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Paweł Paprota]

What you are proposing is basically design by committee
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee) which is rampant
everywhere in OSM and kills innovation. Everyone wants to pile on their
own cause - be it privacy (see the latest pull request on Github
regarding Gravatar for another viable contender for the Waste of Time
prize) or some weird anarchy/freedom/whatever world views.

At the same time there's a guy (Mateusz) who took on the task of making
the default style not suck - so what do people here do? Of course, let's
discuss this to death until everyone agrees. But then you may find that
no one wants to work with you on this anymore.

In Poland we have this often-used saying with regards to the political
or social situation (yeah, we Poles like to complain a lot!) - it sucks
but at least it's stable!

Paweł

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015, at 11:39, Colin Smale wrote:
 


 
 That discussion is only a waste of time because people hope that a consensus 
 will magically appear. The subject of the discussion is absolutely something 
 which deserves air-time. I am not talking about the specific case of 
 abandoned railways, but about who has the right to decide what data has no 
 place in OSM and order its deletion.


 What was that famous line in Animal Farm again?


 --colin


 On 2015-08-20 10:53, Paweł Paprota wrote:


 I'm taking bets on whether this thread will have more replies than the
  abandoned railroads (100+ and still going strong!) and win the prize
  for the Biggest Waste of Time in OSM for 2015.
 
  YES WE CAN('T)
 
  Paweł
 
  On Thu, Aug 20, 2015, at 03:16, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
 For those that did not check on Mateusz Konieczny diary 
 entries[1[http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35586]],
  
  postings to this mailing list and github discussions then the Proposed 
  Great Colour Shift might come as a surprise if it is implemented.
 
  According to the github discussion there is an overwhelming consensus 
  [2] on moving from current rainbow colour scheme for roads to a 
  red-yellow only scheme. I am unsure of where this overwhelming consensus 
  formed because I never saw it on this mailing list nor on talk-dev nor 
  on announcements, I admit to be an infrequent IRC user but I didn't see 
  this overwhelming consensus there and so far no one has been able to 
  tell me where it formed or where I can find it.
 
  The design goal seems straight forward, to discontinue green and blue 
  for roads and move to red and reddish. For this to happen the decision 
  was made to shift current primary, secondary and tertiary colours 
  upwards so primary is now the colour of secondary and secondary the 
  colour of tertiary. Leaving tertiary white.
 
  Tertiary instead gets to be wider than residential and unclassified 
  roads, but to be able to spot that you need to have it next to them to 
  see which is the wider one.
 
  This one simple change of bleaching tertiary however is something I find 
  to be a great hindrance to mapping efforts, particularly in rural areas 
  where the roads are isolated and panning over the map, wether in iD or 
  using default tiles. Currently it is easy to spot tertiary roads snaking 
  through valleys and over vast desert plains, they are yellow and the non 
  tertiary roads are white. Tertiary is significant there as it denotes 
  the roads between the villages and towns that are often unpaved but 
  still the most important, even the only, road. Lesser white colours 
  imply the roads not being between larger settlements although they could 
  lead to hamlets. The guidelines for mapping in Africa state thus.
 
  Removing the colour from tertiary makes all mapping that much harder to 
  verify and quality check. Currently it is easy to see if a tertiary road 
  is broken with a white unclassified bridge, not so in the proposed Great 
  Colour Shift.
 
  Mateusz has been forthcoming with all changes and done sterling work in 
  displaying different areas and how they will look. But he acknowledges 
  that this change is not beneficial everywhere on the map and now has a 
  disclaimer:
 
  Among potential problems are that it is now harder to recognise road 
  type of given road, especially in situation where there is no 
  possibility to compare it with other road types.
  Such significant change will be confusing for current users of this
  style.
  UK color coding of roads is well known for many people, for them a new 
  style - even assuming that it would be intuitive for them - will be less 
  useful.)
 
 
  The question really arises if this change is beneficial or not for the 
  project. Many hours have gone into it and doing CartoCSS on all these 
  zoom levels is not trivial. But this is a major shift on the front page 
  of our website, a blow to those who use the default tiles through uMap 
  or similarly and depend on the UK rainbow road style and makes life 
  harder for mappers to visually confirm the type of road

Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Paweł Paprota]

I'm taking bets on whether this thread will have more replies than the
abandoned railroads (100+ and still going strong!) and win the prize
for the Biggest Waste of Time in OSM for 2015.

YES WE CAN('T)

Paweł

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015, at 03:16, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
 For those that did not check on Mateusz Konieczny diary entries[1], 
 postings to this mailing list and github discussions then the Proposed 
 Great Colour Shift might come as a surprise if it is implemented.
 
 According to the github discussion there is an overwhelming consensus 
 [2] on moving from current rainbow colour scheme for roads to a 
 red-yellow only scheme. I am unsure of where this overwhelming consensus 
 formed because I never saw it on this mailing list nor on talk-dev nor 
 on announcements, I admit to be an infrequent IRC user but I didn't see 
 this overwhelming consensus there and so far no one has been able to 
 tell me where it formed or where I can find it.
 
 The design goal seems straight forward, to discontinue green and blue 
 for roads and move to red and reddish. For this to happen the decision 
 was made to shift current primary, secondary and tertiary colours 
 upwards so primary is now the colour of secondary and secondary the 
 colour of tertiary. Leaving tertiary white.
 
 Tertiary instead gets to be wider than residential and unclassified 
 roads, but to be able to spot that you need to have it next to them to 
 see which is the wider one.
 
 This one simple change of bleaching tertiary however is something I find 
 to be a great hindrance to mapping efforts, particularly in rural areas 
 where the roads are isolated and panning over the map, wether in iD or 
 using default tiles. Currently it is easy to spot tertiary roads snaking 
 through valleys and over vast desert plains, they are yellow and the non 
 tertiary roads are white. Tertiary is significant there as it denotes 
 the roads between the villages and towns that are often unpaved but 
 still the most important, even the only, road. Lesser white colours 
 imply the roads not being between larger settlements although they could 
 lead to hamlets. The guidelines for mapping in Africa state thus.
 
 Removing the colour from tertiary makes all mapping that much harder to 
 verify and quality check. Currently it is easy to see if a tertiary road 
 is broken with a white unclassified bridge, not so in the proposed Great 
 Colour Shift.
 
 Mateusz has been forthcoming with all changes and done sterling work in 
 displaying different areas and how they will look. But he acknowledges 
 that this change is not beneficial everywhere on the map and now has a 
 disclaimer:
 
 Among potential problems are that it is now harder to recognise road 
 type of given road, especially in situation where there is no 
 possibility to compare it with other road types.
 Such significant change will be confusing for current users of this
 style.
 UK color coding of roads is well known for many people, for them a new 
 style - even assuming that it would be intuitive for them - will be less 
 useful.)
 
 
 The question really arises if this change is beneficial or not for the 
 project. Many hours have gone into it and doing CartoCSS on all these 
 zoom levels is not trivial. But this is a major shift on the front page 
 of our website, a blow to those who use the default tiles through uMap 
 or similarly and depend on the UK rainbow road style and makes life 
 harder for mappers to visually confirm the type of road.
 
 Should this be a new, alternative style instead?
 
 
 [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35586
 [2] 
 https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1736#issuecomment-130592532
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] History of specific areas

[Paweł Paprota]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2015, at 09:31, Paul Johnson wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote:
 
  I don't know if OWL can do it because it is offline.
 
 Is OWL gone forever?  My recollection is I was living in Salem and just 
 joined the project more recently than OWL's been online. 

Unfortunately, for now the answer is yes. But this may change in the
future. So I guess it's not gone forever. Maybe...

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Paweł Paprota]

 And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at least as 
 efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural imperialism as remote 
 mapping.

Acting as devil's advocate, I have a quick question - are you 100% sure
that you are not overthinking stuff? I see discussion after discussion
which delve into grand topics like diversity, freedom from proprietary
software/services, freedom from corporations, now this thing with remote
mappers robbing local people of something deep and profound...

Don't you think you're over-analyzing everything a bit too much
recently? I mean, wouldn't the energy be better spent?

Just checking. I may be wrong, in which case, please do carry on...

Paweł

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015, at 19:09, Christoph Hormann wrote:
 On Saturday 13 June 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  [...]
 
  I don't agree with everything written in these postings but they
  certainly deserve some wider audience, and that's why I am writing
  this here - since neither author is on these lists and I haven't seen
  their messages mentioned or quoted anywhere.
 
  I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: Whenever you give
  someone a map by remote mapping, you also take something away from
  them.
 
 Thanks for pointing to these texts, very interesting reading.
 
 I fear though that critical discussion of the matter will most likely be 
 difficult since the perceived need for humanitarian mapping in events 
 of crisis and the perceived prominence of altruistic motives in those 
 activities is so large making even the basic notion that something good 
 does not justify something bad seems unimportant.  Critical reflection 
 on your activities in such a context is very difficult.
 
 One important point where i think Gwilym is wrong is the idea that 
 proactive humanitarian mapping will lead to a true homogenization of 
 the map.  First of all none of the organized mapping activities 
 focusses on those areas that are worst mapped in OSM so they increase 
 differences rather than reducing them.  Efforts in true homogenization 
 would only have a chance on a much longer time horizon (i.e. decades) 
 and none of the organizations involved in humanitarian mapping think on 
 that time scale.
 
 But more importantly the colonalization, control and power over space 
 is already there in the form of global coverage high resolution 
 imagery.  Remote mapping essentailly makes this information more 
 accessible.  If this is a good or a bad thing can of course be 
 discussed but OSM is not really the best address to blame here in any 
 case.
 
 This is not meant to say remote mapping in OSM is generally a good 
 thing, many of the arguments against it have a lot of merit.  But the 
 main question should be if and how this hampers development of true 
 grassroots mapping by locals when performed within OSM and thereby 
 conteracts the primary purpose of the project and not if remote mapping 
 itself, i.e. extracting semantic information from remotely sensed data 
 that exists anyway is morally questionable in general (which is fairly 
 frivolous IMO).
 
 And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at 
 least as efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural 
 imperialism as remote mapping.  My favorite example is always map 
 rendering, there is a real lot of more or less subtle cultural bias in 
 that.  OSM does not only need more mappers with diverse cultural 
 backgrounds, it also need more diverse input in development and design 
 and the barriers for those are much higher than for mapping.
 
 -- 
 Christoph Hormann
 http://www.imagico.de/
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Paweł Paprota]

Could you please move this discussion to the tagging list?

On Thu, Jun 4, 2015, at 16:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Am 04.06.2015 um 01:48 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com:
  
  
  A value of residential here  seems to need a key to identify whether it 
  relates to a building or landuse.
 
 
 there is also highway=residential 
 
 
 
  However, you suggest building=residential as possibly being redundant. In 
  fact, I'd turn this on its head and make landuse=residential (with the 
  exception of moles) redundant.
 
 
 
 building=residential is bad tagging IMHO as it adds only rough
 information not going beyond what landuse already tells, typically people
 will use more specific values like apartments, house / detached, villa
 etc (if they specify more than yes)
 I can't deny there are quite some of them nonetheless:
 
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/building#values
 
 
  The only residential landuse is directly under a building but by using 
  landuse=residential, such areas cover gardens and highways - which are 
  clearly not residences.
 
 
 I agree for highways but gardens, terraces, garages etc are normally part
 of the residence, even if you don't sleep there...
 
 
 Cheers 
 Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

[Paweł Paprota]

But what exactly is the problem that you're trying to solve with this
idea? Database size? There are much bigger contributing factors to
database size than this, like rampant data redundancy everywhere,
botched mechanical edits etc. Complexity of the UI of editors? I'm sure
they can manage to optimize it.

Paweł

On Wed, May 27, 2015, at 23:13, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,
 
we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects.
 
 Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language
 tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to
 the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The
 less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to
 have their language respected and recorded.
 
 The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are
 several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room
 for enhancement.
 
 Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated
 language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added,
 for example, name:ru tags even to small villages:
 
  http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map
 
 (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group
 and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will
 remain.)
 
 It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be
 there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or
 transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but
 at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder:
 
 If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to
 Wikidata for names in other languages?
 
 We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural
 heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM
 really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to
 record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation
 with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to
 join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata?
 
 We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used
 name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were
 actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want
 (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of
 English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a
 place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for
 OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata.
 
 Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of
 us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable?
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 -- 
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Routing on osm.org

[Paweł Paprota]

Great work!

Picked up by Slashdot BTW:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/02/17/1351206/openstreetmaporg-gets-routing
:-)

Paweł

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015, at 15:22, Steve Coast wrote:
 +1 this is awesome
 
 Steve
 
 On Feb 16, 2015, at 12:10 PM, Michael Kugelmann michaelk_...@gmx.de wrote:
 
 Am 16.02.2015 um 20:20 schrieb Rob
  Nickerson:
 Congratulations to all those who were involved in
  getting directions/routing on openstreetmap.org
  :-)
 +1!
  
  
 
Cheers,
 
Michael.
  
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Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol

[Paweł Paprota]

Not to be a wise ass but it looks recently like OSM is setting out to
solve every single problem starting from gender inequality, good
practices for bookkeeping, methods for democratic voting and now
alcoholic beverages and noise levels at OSM related events...

At the same time Ilya Zverev's message on osmf-talk with very concrete
and very actionable items is left without any response.

I mean, OSM should not be a frontier for all possible controversial
issues to be discussed and solved from ground up. There are solutions
for those things already out there. I feel like shouting just use the
damn Google Docs for storing information and be done with it (replace
use Google Docs with any issues talked about here in recent weeks).
Someone just take charge and let's press on!

True, I am regarded by most people as a troll by now but even trolls can
feel pain at the sight of something placed on its head.

Paweł

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014, at 23:05, Richard Weait wrote:
 I read this article recently and It got me thinking.  Do we devalue
 community members, or potential community members who don't drink?
 
 A quote from the article, When alcohol is currency, non-alcoholic
 drinks are considered valueless, and the interests and needs of people
 who don’t drink alcohol are easily forgotten.
 
 Give it a read and let's talk.  Can we do better in the ways that the
 article suggests?
 
 https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/alcohol-and-inclusivity-planning-tech-events-with-non-alcoholic-options
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)

[Paweł Paprota]

 
 OSM is not a melting pot for the world's open data and while there is a
 place for imports, every import will have to be carefully thought about
 and evaluated. Streamlining that process is not necessarily in the best
 interest of OpenStreetMap.
 

What do you mean? Clearly it *is* in the interest of OSM unless you have
a very different definition of OSM. In some areas of the map you would
not see most of the data (or any data, really) were it not for imports.
Nearby my home area Czech community did an awesome import of addresses
and buildings. Now compare it with the Polish side:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.8719/18.5786

What is your vision for this specific area if there was no
building/address import? Do you expect that in 1 or 5 or 10 years you
would have the same level of coverage by local mappers?

Regarding streamlining and imports in general - to be honest I don't see
much point in the current (quite complex and lenghty) process for
analyzing and blessing the good imports. Instead of putting up more
walls between data and OSM the project should heavily invest in official
backend (as in - *built-in into osm.org*) tools for detecting and
manging (e.g. reverting) changes to the database. At this point there
are tons of 3rd-party scripts but that will not scale and will lead to
more calls for careful imports and that will of course lead to more
barriers for people interested in importing data.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] weekly – 219 – 23.09.-29.09.2014

[Paweł Paprota]

Good stuff, keep it coming!

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014, at 00:27, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
 Hi,
 
 the weekly Nr. 219 with all important news from the OpenStreetMap
 ecosystem
 is published.
 
  http://www.weeklyosm.eu/
 
 Have a lot of fun.
 
 -- 
 ## Manfred
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM completeness

[Paweł Paprota]

I developed a tool some time ago to analyze many aspects of the road
network. See the output here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSMonitor/Poland_Major_Roads

Unfortunately I don't have time to work on it anymore so it was launched
only for Poland, Serbia and Czech Republic. It would be possible to run
it globally but you'd need to deploy it on a sufficiently powerful
server.

Paweł

On Tue, Sep 2, 2014, at 14:29, Eleanor Stokes wrote:
 Hi list,
 Not sure if this is the right place to post--but I just got into using
 OSM and 
 am hoping to utilize it for some of my research.  I need to get some kind
 of 
 completeness metric for each of the cities I am looking at (about 200 of
 them).  
 
 Does anyone happen to know of completeness analyses
 across cities in different regions that have been performed?  
 I'm particularly interested in the completeness of the
 road datasets in OSM.
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Paweł Paprota]

Read this and substitute OSM for Wikipedia:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/13/google_stabs_wikipedia_in_the_front/

quote
The moral is: if you're a contributor to an open web resource, then
beware: the hippy ethos simply marks you out as a mug. Unless you
protect and license your work, you *will* be exploited by a powerful
corporation. Because as the Scorpion said to the
Frog[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog], It's in
my nature - it's what I do*.
/quote

On Thu, Mar 13, 2014, at 15:26, Alex Barth wrote:
 Hello everyone -
 
 I've been sitting on writing about the detrimental effects of OpenStreetMap's 
 share-alike license (ODbL) for a while and finally decided to, um, share. 
 I've been listening long to many OpenStreetMappers I respect a ton telling me 
 it's not so bad and it's just what we're stuck with right now. But given how 
 bad share alike is for OpenStreetMap I don't think we should give up for 
 pushing for a more open license. Here's why I think share-alike hurts 
 OpenStreetMap and how this keeps OpenStreetMap from having the full impact it 
 could have:
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/diary/21221
 
 Looking forward to your comments,
 
 Alex
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] full history planet file updated?

[Paweł Paprota]

+1 to the update. Also it would be nice to have up-to-date extracts (by
continent and country).

On Sat, Nov 2, 2013, at 17:02, Peter Körner wrote:
 Hi
 
 it wood be pretty cool to have an known updatecycle for full history 
 planets. It does not need to be often but it would help to know how long 
 we need to wait for a new one.
 
 Regards, Peter
 
 Am 02.11.2013 14:09, schrieb Maurizio Napolitano:
  i need the full history planet more recent.
  Here there is an old planet file (8 months ago).
  http://planet.openstreetmap.org/planet/full-history/
 
  How i can reconstruct to obtain a more recent file?
 
  Thanks!
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Interesting website stuff in the works

[Paweł Paprota]

Thanks for the summary. BTW, what happened to the week in OSM
newsletter which seems to serve similar purpose? Haven't seen one of
them in a while.

Paweł

On Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 7:48, Paul Norman wrote:
 I'm trying something different in the hopes of getting more awareness
 about
 potential website changes with significant feature or UI impacts. The
 suggested place for comments is on the github issues or pull requests
 
 Reorganize export/share UI - the next set of changes to the share UI.
 Github page for change at
 https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/351
 Test deployment at http://mapui.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/
 
 Add welcome page - Providing a better introductory page, filling a gap in
 existing materials. 
 Github page for change at
 https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/338
 
 Rationalize multiple locate me type functions - Discussion about
 confusion
 and duplication between Where am I?, home and the new geolocation
 button.
 Github page for change at
 https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/373
   
 Use a hash anchor for location/zoom persistence - using #zoom/lon/lat
 instead of ?lon=Alat=Bzoom=C
 Github page for change at
 https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/378
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping cooperation between countries in OSM

[Paweł Paprota]

Pretty cool. Looks like people are mostly contributing to neighboring
countries and also to popular holiday destinations :-)

I can confirm this as I live on Polish/Czech border and often map in
Czech Republic.

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 11:47, Frédéric Bonifas wrote:
 Hi,
 
 For a long time I have wanted to know where people from a given
 country also contribute in OpenStreetMap.
 I have analyzed all the nodes in the OSM Planet from the 15th June
 2013 and I came up with this map :
 http://fredericbonifas.github.io/OSM-cooperation/
 
 One identified bias is that each contributor is assigned the country
 where he has contributed the most as his main country. But this may be
 false.
 
 Best
 
 -- 
 Frédéric Bonifas
 +33672652807 skype:fredericbonifas
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Paweł Paprota]

 The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user
 services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing
 similar, but by design.

Umm, no, not really. It most certainly *is* because of the lack of
knowledge, technology, time, people and many other resources. It is not
easy to provide any non-trivial end-user services based on OSM data -
mainly because there is *a lot* of data. Take any example, like
clickable POIs, better history, routing, search. If anyone wants to take
such services to Google Maps level (so search just works for a change)
then it WILL be hard to implement.

Don't spread misinformation that anything is by design. If there were
people to tackle those hard tasks then would anyone say no because
that's our design? I don't think so.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 8:29, Simon Poole wrote:
 
 Guillaume
 
 I've answered some of your questions directly on your OSM blog.
 
 Here just some general remarks: at least since I've been involved with
 OSM and likely for a whole lot longer, the tension between what we have
 stated as the primary function of the main site, providing tools for our
 contributors to add and edit data, and the expectation that it should be
 something more google-ish has been very apparent. At times, mostly just
 to drive the point home, it has been suggested that it might be best to
 get rid of the map on the front page completely.
 
 Now I think there is some consensus that the Map is an important
 marketing tool that we need to attract more contributors, well at least
 keep them interested for a couple seconds so that we can tell them our
 story. But that is likely where the consensus stops and that is one of
 the reasons (outside of resources) why there hasn't been much visible
 expansion of services on OSM over the last years.
 
 Providing more services to end users would have a lot of consequences,
 for example it would start encroaching on the business of third parties
 providing such services now (we naturally already do this with the
 current site to a certain point), at least raising the bar of what you
 would need to provide to differentiate your service from OSM. Providing
 a full blown end-user site would also require substantially more
 resources than we have at our disposal and would likely mean that our
 current all volunteer model both for operations and administration
 would no longer be workable.
 
 There are some clear downsides to our current business model for
 example our main brand is not exposed as much as if we were running
 4square, MapQuest Open etc., and on the other hand interesting services
 for end users that exist don't profit from the OpenStreetMap label as
 they could do.
 
 The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user
 services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing
 similar, but by design. Now the communities thinking about that may
 change, but because we are travelling in largely uncharted territory, it
 is not a surprise that change comes slowly.
 
 Simon
 
 
 
 
 Am 09.07.2013 06:41, schrieb Guillaume Pratte:
  Hello,
 
  I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and I 
  am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the 
  project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to 
  replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap.
 
  But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues?
 
  I'll give a few concrete examples why, humbly hoping that my words can 
  encourage changes to the main website.
 
  First point: searching. I have OpenStreetMap zoomed in to some region of 
  Montreal, Canada. I input café, looking for a coffee shop. I get results 
  from Nominatim, inviting me to visit a village in Brazil named Café or 
  even the Café point in Antarctica. While these search results awaken my 
  globetrotter's desire to explore the world, they frustrate me at the same 
  time. Why couldn't Nominatim priorize results from the bounding box or 
  surrounding? Why can't OpenStreetMap show me results on the map like the 
  OverPass API does, performing a search on the tag amenity=cafe and showing 
  the results on the map?
 
  Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of 
  interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address, 
  business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot 
  easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the 
  map's data in order to have information on a point of interest?
 
  Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and 
  OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the 
  map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp-- 
  What are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have 
  to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data.
 
  Fourth point: sharing a point of 

Re: [OSM-talk] Seeing changesets confined to an area

[Paweł Paprota]

http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013, at 14:17, David Richfield wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I want to see changesets that affect an area, and all I'm seeing when
 I click on history are changesets that affect map elements that are
 scattered across a huge area, but don't affect anything in the area I
 specified.
 
 Is there a way to find changesets that actually affect a map element
 in the selected area?  I suppose the reason that the history search
 doesn't already do that is that it's much easier to just search for
 bounding boxes, but is there a way to filter the search afterwards?
 
 Thanks,
 
 --
 David Richfield
 [[:en:User:Slashme]]
 +27718539985
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-ca] Tag for Tim Horton's

[Paweł Paprota]

Just a polite reminder that the tagg...@openstreetmap.org list is the
proper place for such discussions...

On Fri, May 31, 2013, at 1:42, Paul Johnson wrote:
 Not a cafe, then, that'd be more of a restaurant.
 
 
 On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:21 PM, John F. Eldredge
 j...@jfeldredge.comwrote:
 
  I have often seen the term used in the USA by casual-dining restaurants
  that cook from scratch, instead of relying on the heavily pre-prepared food
  characteristic of fast-food restaurants. These cafes have beverages
  available, but in limited variety, since the emphasis is on the food.
 
 
 
  Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 5:11 AM, Andrew MacKinnon 
  andrew...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  is there such a thing as a cafe that is not a coffee shop?
 
  Yes, if it is a tea shop.
 
  --
 
  talk mailing list
  talk@openstreetmap.org
  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
 
 
  --
  Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Google Maps being praised for removing I-5 colasped bridge quickly

[Paweł Paprota]

Things like these and in general Google/Apple/insert your favorite
corporation here-mania really only show how upside down the world is
nowadays.

Does OSM really want press like that? I'm not sure... true, it would
get the word out about OSM but is that the proper way to publicize?
I think people don't really care that some bridge was removed or added
or whatever, they just see the word Google or Apple in the headline.

How did Wikipedia become a household name? I don't know but I'm not sure
if it was because they wanted to get silly publicity like this. I would
bet it had more to do with the actual content and quality of their
project.

Of course with Wikipedia it was somehow easier because all of their
work gets indexed by search engines and the more links to Wikipedia the
better place in search results = automatic publicity to pretty much
everyone who uses the internet.

Back on topic, I don't think journalists who write those
articles/headlines will be interested in OSM any time soon. And that's a
good thing in my book.

Paweł

On Sat, May 25, 2013, at 9:40, Paul Norman wrote:
 How can we get more effective press coverage from events? Part of it is
 probably more people volunteering for the communications working group,
 but
 is there more?
 
  
 
 Note: If you want to help with the CWG, email
 communicat...@osmfoundation.org.
 
  
 
 From: James Mast [mailto:rickmastfa...@hotmail.com] 
 Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:10 PM
 To: talk...@openstreetmap.org; talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [Talk-us] Google Maps being praised for removing I-5 colasped
 bridge quickly
 
  
 
 http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/collapsed-i-5-bridge-gone-google-maps-almo
 st-quickly-it-6C10067906
  
 If I remember correctly, we had it marked as access=no and the segment
 removed about an hour faster than on Google.  Somebody needs to get ahold
 of
 Rosa from NBC (who did the article) and let them know about OSM pawning
 Google here.
  
 -James
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Google Maps being praised for removing I-5 colasped bridge quickly

[Paweł Paprota]

On 05/25/2013 12:15 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Of course with Wikipedia it was somehow easier because all of their
work gets indexed by search engines



Also osm is indexed by search engines



Sure but have you ever seen a link to OSM object (way/relation/node) in 
the internet?


When you search for Vienna or Berlin for example, Wikipedia is the top 
result. Link to OSM is nowhere to be found (at least on the first 10 
pages of search results, after that I gave up looking for it).


Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/03/2013 10:51 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

I don't know exactly what git log you mean. OSM is a whole universe
of software; a part of that is visible on
https://github.com/openstreetmap/. The bit that is on
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website is but a tiny
 fragment of it. The number of Top Ten Tasks completed would only be
 suitable if you had something to compare it to (in 2011 we managed
 to close 4 tasks but not a single one in 2012 or so).



I meant the OSM platform aka the main website aka API aka Rails Port and
related services.

But this would start whole another discussion is the main website
relevant etc. Of course it is and we should have a lot of features
there because people (and the media for example) are judging the whole
project by it - but let's not discuss this further in this thread...

I am glad that this thread has happened. A lot of people say it's just
flamewars and it breaks the community. I think such threads serve a
purpose and it's good to have them to exchange viewpoints.

It's a new week, I am prepared to agree that we maybe disagree in some
points and continue working on OSM.

Just a last word - I am not proclaiming doom. To the contrary - I am
full of energy and ideas but at the same time I am a bit afraid that if
this energy does not lead anywhere then I will be burnt out in this 
project because of the frustration that I cannot change anything.


Let's hope that we can find a way to work together in the coming months.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/02/2013 11:30 PM, Chris Hill wrote:


Actually, I question just how valuable the work is of someone who uses
it to threaten the community with withdrawing it if he is a bit upset. I
prefer to see the work given freely without strings attached - that's
what I see as what Open means. YMMV.


How am I threatning anyone? I'm just speaking out loud what are my 
concerns and that's not because I want to threaten but maybe provoke 
some people to think about what effects their actions (or inaction) have 
on the community.


What strings are attached to my work? The code is on Github, it's on 
open source license, I'm actively working on it and at the same time 
taking part in these discussions.


Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/02/2013 11:49 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:


you are too impatient, at least too impatient for the occasionally
glacial pace at which things move in OSM(F).

You have been with OSM for about 6 months now if I'm not mistaken,
and most of your recent messages (at least most of the messages that
reach me) are about how and why you might be leaving. Most people
take a bit longer than that!


That's because in those 6 months I have worked several hundred hours
(300) on my OSM related projects. So I'm not exactly a regular member
of the community. I was working nearly full time on OSM in my own time
from October to December.

So you may say that my impatience was accelerated by that fact.


You are also jumping to conclusions (OSMF doesn't want to set agenda
for the future) - maybe OSMF simply wants to think it over?


Please don't quote selectively. This sentence was an either/or
construct so please don't quote out of context.

And you seem to be thinking it over since 2011 according to SWG
meeting minutes. As Jeff mentioned, there is a group of people who have
the energy and ideas on how to reactivate such strategic/future
initiative. I'm very interested to see how OSMF reacts to that.


There are many others who have, over the years, done much more work
that you have, in their spare time, and who haven't after only six
months sent lots of emails about having to abandon all their work if
 OSMF doesn't finally manage to implement strategic planning or so.


So what? People are different. I am apparently more outspoken or
sensitive to some stuff than others. I.e. I want to make sure that the
project I'm spending tons of my own free time is actually going
somewhere. What's wrong with that?


It seems that in your particular case you see a connection between
coding for OSM and the OSMF because ultimately you would like to get
paid for your work, and you don't see OSMF paying developers without
a strategic plan. Is that reading correct, or do you simply fear that
without a strategically planning organisation the OSM project will
die and your contributions with it?


I abandoned my apparent pipe-dream of getting paid for OSM work
about a month ago. I still think that the community should be supported
in their efforts by some organization like OSMF, i.e. CWG or DWG members
should be actually paid for their work on some basis. Developers may be
a different case because some of the tasks require extreme amount of
work so it could be done on case-by-case basis.

What I want right now is some sign that OSM is not fading away as a
project. And no, we just need time to think it over written by OSMF
board member is not what I'm looking for.

For me the next 6-8 months will be make or break for OSM(F).

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/03/2013 07:35 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 03.02.2013 12:36, Paweł Paprota wrote:

What I want right now is some sign that OSM is not fading away as a
project.


Shouldn't this be the other way round - shouldn't somebody who
claims that OSM was about to fade away have proof for that?

Number of users raising:
(...)

I'm sorry but I don't see any reason for gloom. Maybe you have read
the wrong blogs to fear that OSM will soon be forgotten ;)



Nice way to interpret the data :-) Look closer and not only if the
charts are rising and you can see a different picture:

Number of users grew from 500k to 1M since some time in 2011 until
January 2013:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats1_users.png

At the same time the percentage of (highly) active users is falling
since at least 2009 and this number is now below 2%.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats8.png
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats4A.png

On the developer side of things, look at the git log and what's been
going on in the last several months. How many Top Ten Tasks have been
accomplished in 2012 from those that were planned? Now think why this
number is so low.

I don't know much about CWG but I trust Richard when he says they are
understaffed/under-resourced and proper communication and PR is
probably one of the most important things right now that the project
should be doing.



As I said, such impatience is unusual and unwarranted. The next 6-8
months are certainly not going to make or break OSM or OSMF; I
really don't know where that idea comes from.



That's your opinion, I have a different one and know at least a couple
of people who think alike. Certainly if nothing is done in 6-8 months
then OSM is not going to vanish. It's just my personal timeframe, the
time I'm willing to invest into developing and helping with other matters.


Strategic thinking is long-term thinking, and in our case requires
to get a lot of pepole on board in a suitable process, including
those who think that we shouldn't have a strategy (we can't just kick
them out and say ok then we'll have a strategy without you - we
have to convince them that having a strategy is good). This not only
is a lot of work but also requires the political skills that Mike
Migurski mentioned. I'm confident that all these things are going to
happen in due course, but it is very unlikely that in due course
means in 6-8 months.



Seriously? 6-8 months is not enough time to put together such 
initiative? What do you plan on doing all this time?


Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/01/2013 04:22 PM, Simon Poole wrote:

Please address any questions on the matter to me by e-mail and not to
the list.


Why?

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/01/2013 08:54 PM, andrzej zaborowski wrote:

I agree with what you're saying although I can't help thinking that
if the OSMF can't take the risk of having some things in the wiki,
the solution, for everyone's benefit, is to move the wiki to a server
that's not paid for by the OSMF.  I'm positive finding such a server
wouldn't be difficult (in fact the home page says it is hosted at UCL
 ByteMark -- so if the OSMF is neither hosting nor writing the
content, should it accept the C+D?  The admins *are* OSMF members,
but they're not OSMF). The OSMF has at some point started assuming
responsibility for what is being published in the database and now on
the wiki.  In the case of the database it makes sense for someone to
give some level of warranty that the data in it in fact is legally
usable, although the consequences of this step have had a terrible
effect on the map and the community so far.


+100

Current situation is getting silly to the point that I'm seriously
considering abandoning this project and leaving history tab, vector
tiles and my other projects unfinished just to have peace of mind and
work in a sane project with sane organization behind it like KDE.

On one hand OSMF is telling us they don't want any strategic planning
and involvement, on the other they are redacting and editing data and
wiki. And this is possible mostly because what Andrzej said - that they
host the servers (which I am personally grateful for - to the admins -
no to people who use it for political bullshit like this).

This is NOT how a project should work and you will only discourage
people by doing such stunts.

Either finally get your act together and prepare a proper organization
like KDE e.v (http://ev.kde.org/) or get out of the project and
leave it be. There is still plenty of energy that will fill the void
after you (I'm talking to OSMF).

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/02/2013 02:38 PM, Ed Loach wrote:

As far as I can see, OSMF Ltd is very like KDE ev; compare
http://blog.osmfoundation.org/about/ and
http://ev.kde.org/whatiskdeev.php


Legal status is the least of what I meant. Compare what OSMF does with
this quarterly report from the KDE foundation:

http://ev.kde.org/reports/ev-quarterly-2012_Q3.pdf

Not only is all this stuff happening but they also have people who
prepare such a nice quarterly report.

Also note fund raising efforts, expenses and donations, partners, new
members etc.

This is an organization that actually supports the community in their
efforts. And they are not evil in doing that.

What can be done to steer OSMF into that direction? Can it be even done
at this point?

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/02/2013 07:41 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:

There's a group working in parallel to put together a strategic plan,
in the absence of one, but doing this without leadership and support
from the top can be problematic.


Couple of people have mentioned the Strategic Working Group[1] to me in
the last few days when I ran the idea by them.

It seems to be an ideal platform for this kind of effort. It looks like
SWG has been inactive for quite a while now:

* Last meeting minutes are from December 2011 [2]
* Last mailing list thread is from September 2012 [3]

I am not sure what are the reasons of this inactivity, whether it is
intentional (OSMF does not want to set the agenda for the future) or
people just don't have the time/energy but regardless of that it looks
like the right place to discuss further.

The initiative that Jeff mentioned is in very early stages, basically
few people got together via e-mail after one of those recent OSM Future
Look threads and we came up with an idea to start a more structured
brainstorming. I think it should be revealed soon how to participate and
what this is exactly.

The most interesting challenge is of course moving from talking to
action, we have some ideas how to avoid degenerating into another
talking initiative. Involving OSMF in some capacity would be another
idea to give the initiative more momentum.

[1] http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Strategic_Working_Group
[2] 
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes#Strategic_Working_Group

[3] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/strategic/

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

[Paweł Paprota]

On 02/02/2013 10:23 PM, Chris Hill wrote:

Threats to leave the project remind me of the bullshit thrown around
 during licence-change when hardly anyone actually had the balls to
follow through. If people are so unhappy then go, but do so quickly
and quietly and leave the people really interested in OSM to continue
making the very best map database we can.


So you don't acknowledge that there are people (like me) who are really
interested in OSM and same time they are discouraged by a situation
like this and are considering leaving the project?

By your logic either everyone has to STFU and agree with the actions of
OSMF or they have to leave the project because they are not really
interested in OSM.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] POI display on osm.org

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/23/2013 09:35 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:

I suspect that looking for things of type X is more of an end user
 goal though, which isn't the target audience for the OSM web site.



...or is it? :-)


The question we should be asking is what sort of approach helps
mappers and for that I suspect what things are here may be more
useful?


For that I think the browse map data feature could be made more
prominent though I do understand performance/scalability challenges of this.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] POI display on osm.org

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/22/2013 09:35 AM, Ilya Zverev wrote:

Right now, in Roland's version, it isn't even clear that one should
click on the map to get information.


In one of the EWG meetings POI display was split into two separate tasks:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks#Clickable_POIs_on_the_frontpage

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks#POI_inspection_tool_on_the_frontpage

I think this separation makes sense and I assume that Roland's solution
is for the POI inspection tool task since, as you mentioned, the POI's
themselves are not really clickable as on Google Maps for example. For
that the Mapnik grid renderer approach looks interesting.

For the POI/data inspection tool I think we would need vector tiles
approach instead of a regular fire SQL for given coordinates approach
but of course this does not mean that Roland's solution does not apply -
if it can be scaled for production and nicely integrated into the Rails
Port then why not?

It is certainly better than current situation where we have nothing
clickable and no inspection tool...

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] POI display on osm.org

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/23/2013 12:31 PM, Tom Hughes wrote:

Well that one seems wrong to me as it is approaching the issue from one
of achieving feature parity with Google Maps, but as I have always
understood it that has never been our goal.


It also provides better user experience. Sure we can say that the main 
website is only for mappers and having no hit boxes on POI's is OK but 
then I guess I'd have to start questioning why do I keep spending all 
this time on improving history view if it's not really the goal for the 
main website to be usable...


Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] POI display on osm.org

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/21/2013 03:17 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:

A perfect solution here might be to extend Mapnik to report as
additional meta data to a tile the objects rendered (and/or skipped)


Mapnik has a grid renderer that does exactly what you described:

https://github.com/mapnik/mapnik/wiki/MapnikRenderers

Perhaps together with OSM Mapnik update to 2.0 and using Carto for
the main stylesheet this could be implemented as well.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Paweł Paprota]

 Isn't the purpose of OSM and Contributors to credit or attribute
 the
 source of the map tile data?
 

Maybe, maybe not. More importantly - the fact that there's a discussion
what this mark tries to communicate means that it fails to do it
properly in the first place. 

At first glance I thought it was just sort of a banner to promote OSM
but if it is to replace the legal attribution then it's not really doing
that job. I support Kai's idea about separating the two functions. I
like the Wikipedia example. It would be really cool to have a widely
known edit button/symbol/mark sitting in the corner of embedded maps
to show that the map is a living thing that can be corrected, enriched
etc.

I also agree with Tom - naming stuff *is* very important and is
definitely not a side issue. Right now contributors mark suggests at
least two different things - list of contributors or some kind of award
for being a contributor and neither of them is true... This stuff should
really be dead simple and intuitive, if you have to think about it as a
user, explain, discuss then forget it, it won't work in the wild. Of
course it's always harder to communicate more with less but that's the
main challenge I  see here...

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/13/2013 04:20 PM, MonkZ wrote:

Maybe colorcoded here was an edit in log(x) minutes (tilewise png
transparency or css opiacity) or colorcoded amount of edits within
this week (tilewise png transparency or css opiacity)


I tried that in some UI experiments a few weeks ago and it looked cool.

I think it would be nice to show that the OSM map data is really alive
and such ideas as yours above are doing that, it certainly looks better
than nothing at all and the please zoom in prompt.

OWL API has summary tiles already - they provide exactly the kind of
data you mentioned (last edit + number of edits in the last X days), I
just need to rethink how they are generated/cached because they don't
scale nicely to what's in the database currently.

Anyway, I added a new issue based on your suggestion:

https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/issues/11

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi again,

Just a couple of small updates about this project:

* I made some major changes to the user interface - there is no popups
anymore as they obscured geometry and especially made the show previous
geometry function useless in some cases as the popup was in the way.
Opinions are welcome as always. For me personally the sidebar feels a
little bit crowded after the changes so it would be nice if someone had
an idea how to preserve the amount of information available and still
have a simple and clear user interface.

* The database now has tiles for over 3 million changesets so things are
slowing down especially at low zoom levels. Because of this I will
probably soon remove tiles from zoom levels = 10 or something like
that. Queries for those levels run sometimes for several minutes so it's
only a waste of server processing power to try and display them. And
also the disk space is running very low on two 500GB SSDs on the server
and I would rather remove useless tiles than resort to moving data to
the spinning drive :-)

Paweł

On 01/04/2013 12:01 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote:

http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/

Couple of things:

* Zoom levels = 14 should be usable. On lower zoom levels it
sometimes takes a lot of time to show history. Also I don't have
clear idea yet what to really show on the lower zoom levels - what
would be useful - so suggestions are welcome.

* I'm actively working on this instance so don't be surprised when
something breaks or there is no data at all etc. - it's a beta
version :-)

* You can click on nodes/ways in the map to get more details about
changes :-)



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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - OSM contributor mark

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/11/2013 03:26 PM, Alex Barth wrote:

http://yhahn.github.com/byosm/  (just a demo domain, this should live
ideally on `openstreetmap.org/contributors`)


Looks good as far as I understand the proposal...

One thing came to me at a quick glance - the new /contributors page does
not have any visual references to the osm.org website styling, there is
no chrome or even OSM logo there. Isn't that going to be confusing to
the user to see such very different page that is part of the website?

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/09/2013 03:05 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:


My idea of dealing with this complex situation is to:


This all sounds nice but has it been done on a scale that OSM needs it
to work? Are there large projects that have this kind of organization
that you describe?

There are dozens of large open source communities (Apache Software
Foundation, KDE, Ubuntu etc.) that we can learn from. I would say more -
not only learn from but by looking at those projects we can see what's
possible. Some of those communities have been around for a decade or
more - my theory is that it is safe to assume that between them all they
tried more or less everything in terms of organizing themselves.

So what we can choose from is out there today and working. Everything
else has failed the test of time. I don't think we want to be pioneers
and try something enitrely new that has not been done or, even worse,
try something that was tried before and failed (why repeat mistakes of
others?).

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/09/2013 11:17 AM, Peter Wendorff wrote:

OpenOffice, now part of Apache, is well known, sure - but I think,
still more people know Microsoft Office than OpenOffice.


I don't think ASF would be happy with you reducing them to OpenOffice
:-) They have over a hundred of well-known projects and as an
organization they are a great example of how things can work.

With the rest of your post - I'm not talking about changing the project
itself. Again - no one wants to take away anything from anyone. I'm not
sure why people jump to defensive positions so quickly in those discussions.

The projects I gave as examples are as open source as OSM, everyone is
free to contribute, there is a community behind each of those projects -
no different than OSM.

They are just better organized to do some things like communication,
fundraising, strategy, events and the list goes on and on. This stuff
cannot be done properly with having only structures at lower level
because such structures will never be able to coordinate with each other
- they have a different role - to grow the project organically which is
great but cannot be applied in every area.

And better organization does not mean becoming, as you put it, a
centralized moloch of decision makers who reject what other people do
because it does not fit to their opinion what should be done by someone.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/09/2013 12:20 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:


Communication professionals IMHO most often sound like marketing.


I did not mean communication professionals but giving more resources to
the OSMF's Communication Working Group or similar initiatives. Posting a
tweet or a blog post now and then really is not enough to communicate
about the project that OSM has become. There needs to be more
initiatives like switch2osm, campaigns need to be thought out and put
together. This does not have anything to do with marketing, it's just
how a project grows.


I didn't see any hint to something like that, and that's what's
missing for some people arguing against you here, I guess.



I did that multiple times already. It's kind of frustrating to see that
this discussion always seem to run in the same circles over and over
again... To see the gist of what I mean:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/06.html

Projects like OSM do not run on fairy dust and rainbows. Yesterday I
watched Jimmy Wales (founder of Wikipedia) on The Colbert Report talk
show and he was talking about Wikipedia's strategy and budget. They
spend nearly 30 million dollars a year on hardware, network, manpower
(technical, administrative) just to keep Wikipedia running. Of course it
is not nearly the same scale as OSM but the same principle starts to
apply to OSM as I hope everyone wants OSM to be more like Wikipedia in
terms of users and being well-known. The number of core contributors
stays pretty much the same for two years now.

I heard plans to have a big bang campaign this year based on the new
editor for newcomers (iD) and potentially the new history tab that I'm
working on. I would *love* to be able to finish my tool so it is
production quality and can be used to show off how great OSM is in such
campaign. But I doubt I will reach such point simply because I can no
longer afford working exclusively on OWL. So this will probably move to
another month, then another year etc...

Sure it may seem as I am lobbying to get money for myself but ultimately
if OSM cannot support in some way (organizational or not,
ecosystem-driven or not) in creating such feature that I prototyped then
something is really wrong with the project or at least the project is
being limited.


Please give concrete examples what you then mean by better
organization. What's missing where and when? And if you really want,
why do you think, a better organization would solve that issue -
and what kind of better organization?



If only I had all the answers... I am just trying to start a discussion
based on my own example with OWL. It does not seem to be working too 
well so let's drop it. It's clear that we speak different languages in 
this topic.


Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Simple improvement(s) to openstreetmap.org

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/09/2013 01:37 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

I may be a grumpy old dinosaur but I don't see how diluting the
Openstreetmap brand into the bland broth of proprietary centralized
social services that plague the Internet nowadays will bring any
value...


Simple question then: you go to osm.org and want to find out what's new
in the project. How do you do that? Where do you find project
announcements like the recent 1 million users news?

None of the links from the home page are obvious enough. You can go to
Documentation and there's the wiki where you can find news on the
front page but that's hardly obvious.

I don't mean to spread misinformation about Communication Working
Group's job here so correct me if I'm wrong but OSM does have an
official Facebook account[1] and official Twitter account which do have
such announcements. It seems only natural to promote those channels from
the main page and I will try to provide a patch for that.

I don't like those propietary centralized social services that plague
Internet nowadays either but I don't think OSM is the right bastion to
fight this particular war...

[1] https://www.facebook.com/OpenStreetMap
[2] https://twitter.com/openstreetmap

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Being more like Wikipedia

[Paweł Paprota]

Frederik,


Hundreds of man-years of developer time... and still a person with
average computer literacy cannot add a table to an article!


Maybe ease-of-use is not a priority for them? I could imagine a lot of
arguments against having a full WYSIWYG editor in Wikipedia.

Regardless, their achievements speak for themselves - billions of page
views per month, something like 500 million unique visitors per month,
#5 website on the internet etc. etc. so they must be doing something
right...

Anyway, I think I am finished with discussion in this thread, I just
want to say that I'm looking forward to some concrete suggestions from
you that are backed by data or examples.

My impression from this discussion is that some people cling to the idea
that stuff is black or white. Either we have funding/staff and become a
corporation with a lot of overhead or we stay what we are today. If
you think in such binary way there's no room for discussion or at least
the discussion is very painful because there will always be some
loophole you will find and grab at it to tear down any new ideas or
directions that are different from your own.

That's OK, I don't mind, I am not discouraged by this, although it
definitely would be better if there was more people who would say
great, let's do it or let's try it instead of trying to come up with
reasons why not to do it.

Thankfully it's an open project so we can try different approaches, so
again - I look forward to what you come up with and I also hope for
myself that I can finish some stuff I have started and maybe even make
some moves towards organizing funding, although I wouldn't know where to
start with that...

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Frederik,

I basically agree with everything that Jeff wrote in reply to your
e-mail so I won't reiterate the same points.

One thing to note - look at the numbers: between 2010 and today, the
number of users doubled and in the same period the number of active
contributors did not change nearly that much.

What does that say to you? For me it's a clear signal that there is
great interest in OSM but somehow OSM is failing most of those
interested. Welcome Working Group is a good way to find why but I think
it's pretty obvious when you look what OSM has to offer to a newcomer
who is used to services like YouTube and Facebook in terms of usability
and features.

There does not have to be a grand strategic plan in order to start
addressing the lowest hanging fruit like... umm, I don't know - being
able to see what was changed in my home area without having a lot of bot
edits displayed in the history tab? Being able to calculate a route or
click on a POI on a main page of a freaking mapping project?

I really don't want to discuss whether OSM main website should have
feature X or Y. I am interested in doing X and Y, I know that people are
interested in X and Y and are going to find it useful. So instead of
endless discussion I will just do it because I am a developer. In the
process of doing it I suddenly realize that I actually enjoy working on
this stuff but it takes a lot of effort so I ask around about funding
because I would like to continue working on it.

The simple fact is that some of the improvements won't ever be
implemented without people working full time on it (look at the Top Ten
Task list to get some idea). How do you propose to solve this problem
without funding people to develop them?

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/07/2013 11:32 PM, Johan C wrote:

The Wikimedia Foundation launched a strategic planning process in
2009: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page which, in 2010,
resulted in a collaborative vision for the movement till 2015.


Thanks for this link, I have not seen this before... it's kind of
mind-boggling when you compare this to OSM wiki and our efforts to
strategize. Like heaven and earth...

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Roland,


Mapnik and all the other tools you mentioned have all been developed
without a strategic vision and without formal permission from
whomever


Because they are single-purpose libraries that don't really need any
strategic vision other than do we use XML/CSS/C/C++ for this decisions.

Putting it all together and creating something like OSM.org and the OSM
core platform is a completely different thing. What you get with a
market-like approach in this case is a dozen of small websites to do the
same thing which is of course cool because you can pick and choose but
does that help the core project?


In an organization, you need some kind of majority (might be your
boss only or in a more democratic case, a majority by numbers) to
steamroll down the minority's will


I don't think we're talking about things like that... it is not black or
white (corporate-like organization or no organization at all). There is
something in between that best suits the OSM spirit.

I'm more and more convinced that it is *not* OSMF as I simply don't
understand what is the role of OSMF as such. I can tell what specific
working groups are doing but the overall organization is undefined and
I'm not sure I really care to find out or discuss what it should be -
this looks like a giant waste of time.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

It has been said that many people sign up to OSM because they believe
 they'll have advanced user features (more maps? your own map style?
 whatever). Without any research into this, you cannot conclude that
 those who sign up would have been mappers if only our web interface
was more like Facebook.

Also, I think that your comparison with Facebook is totally out of
place; OSM is a site where you sign up if you want to survey the
planet, whereas Facebook is a site where you sign up if you want to
be in touch with your friends. OSM is a project where people work on
a common goal together; this is something completely different than
Facebook. If someone told me I signed up to OSM but was so different
from Facebook that I couldn't do anything they will probably get a
rather puzzled look from me!



I didn't mean Facebook literally, I just used it as an example of a
website that is from the 21st century.



I don't understand the obsession with wanting everything on the main
 page. We're not a business that needs the ad revenue; we're an open
 project and one of the great things that we want people to
understand is how everyone can build cool stuff with OSM. What better
way than to link to stuff other people have built? (Kind of like the
Schaufenster on www.openstreetmap.de - I'd like to move the map
away from our main page like www.openstreetmap.de did.)



My vision goes beyond that (or maybe not beyond but in a different
direction...) as I believe that having a proper modern website that
shows off different tools (like routing) and most of all - user
contributions and data we have - will ultimately help the project at all
levels.


I really don't want to discuss whether OSM main website should
have feature X or Y. I am interested in doing X and Y, I know that
people are interested in X and Y and are going to find it useful.
So instead of endless discussion I will just do it because I am a
developer. In the process of doing it I suddenly realize that I
actually enjoy working on this stuff but it takes a lot of effort
so I ask around about funding because I would like to continue
working on it.


Makes sense. Much better than having a committee tell you what to
code next, no?



And no one is/was suggesting we have such committee.


The simple fact is that some of the improvements won't ever be
implemented without people working full time on it


I'm not sure if that is a simple fact. Nobody has ever (to my
knowledge) approached OSMF and said I'll code feature #4 on your top
ten tasks list if you give me so-and-so much money. I don't know
what would happen if someone did. OSMF could either reject, or accept
and pay, or talk to other parties who might be interested in the
issue.

I have, by the way, done that myself, too, in the past; on several
occasions I was approached by someone who wanted additions coded for
 JOSM or other OSM related tools and I built them and added them to
the code base. In at least one situation I had an idea myself and
approached a company working with OSM and asked if they'd be
interested in funding it. I've never asked for, or received money
directly from OSMF though.



I don't think you appreciate the complexity of the OSM main website and
related services. JOSM and standalone tools and scripts are just single
purpose tools which are rather easy to code (although of course require
a lot of effort). There are no user-driven scalability, point of
failure, hardware, security and integration challenges involved.

And that's why TTT list moves so slowly. Have you followed EWG
discussions about the main issues from that list? After attending
several IRC meetings and reading some logs it is clear to me that some
of those issues are fundamentally different from what you try to compare
it to above.

I also have done some OSM contracting work but compared to OSM main
website it was no challenge at all - no scale, only one country extract,
no history. Where's the engineering fun in that? Providing a modern,
well-integrated and usable main website for OSM is a great challenge I
would like to take part in. If you don't think this is a good goal for
the community then that's fine, after all it's an open community so
everyone can work on what they want to.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/08/2013 01:16 PM, Roland Olbricht wrote:

 Please tell people the truth, you actively contribute to impede the
 Top Ten Tasks. Let's take a look at


If you think that this solution (Overpass popup) would be suitable for
the main website, why don't you just develop it and propose the merge
instead of throwing around accusations?

Why would anyone care about my -1 which is my technical opinion
(dependency on Overpass API) and not really any political sabotage as
you seem to imply (and which I won't even dignify with an answer...)?


 The task was then postponed for indefinite time, because you
 promised to do some work you have not done since October.


I don't recall having any action item relevant to clikable POI's, if I
did then I failed to do it because I was/am working on OWL and that's
not a crime. I don't see why anyone would wait for me if they were to
implement clikable POI's.


 There are several stable working installations of rendering chains
 out there, including CycleMaps, the German openstreetmap servers and
 others. There is more than one installations of nominatim. It's not
 rocket science, in partciular not from a programming point of view.
 It's a matter of long time care and responsibility, and that's
 exactly the point for which the admin team deserves acknowledgement.
 I do acknowledge that reliability, carried out by responsible humans,
 not by some magic super-software.


Rendering chain does not really fully describe the main website. Also
the fact that something is running on German or whatever servers does
not mean too much in the context of the main website.

 By contrast, your list user-driven scalability, point of failure,
 hardware, security and integration challenges, 21st century web
 site are just buzzwords. For example, security
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Security has a well-defined
 meaning that already includes availablity which is the reason to do
 scalability and avoid designing a single point of failure.

 In particular, one virtue of security exactly to prevent
 overwhelming complexity is to divide and conquer. Adding features not
 only to the main site but even intermix them with the core system
 (the main OSM DB) makes the task indeed difficult. But this is due to
 bad design, not because the task is difficult.


It's your choice if you want to dismiss challenges I described and call
them buzzwords. If you really think that then there's not much to discuss...

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

(...)


What you describe sounds good in theory (ecosystem) but in practice it
does not work that way. You can't just pick and choose some cool
projects and integrate them into the main site. Software (in particular,
open source software) is not a puzzle that can be easily thrown together
and create something bigger than one piece.

Look at distro packaging people - there is tremendous amount of work
going into delivering upstream projects to actual users at the end. Look
at all the glue between all components (like D-Bus, systemd etc) that is
needed for a fully working system.

Now take this Linux methaphor and apply it to OSM and its main website.
In my time that I spent following Rails Port and in general main website
development (about 6 months) I have seen 2 maybe 3 people writing major
pieces of code for Rails Port, some of those pieces have been rejected
from merging for various reasons.

All I'm saying that it's not as easy as you make it sound and pursuing
funding for improving the main website is a viable thing to do,
otherwise we will have to keep waiting X years or maybe forever for some
of the more complex pieces to be fit into the puzzle.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Richard,

I just came back from a few hours of skiing, full of enthusiasm to
continue my work on OWL and interested how the discussion in this thread
evolved and what do I see? Accusations of sabotage thrown at me...

So basically - I think I start to understand what you said.

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Jeff,

On 01/08/2013 07:48 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:

Paweł -

Please do not be discouraged by the voice of one person delivering
an ad-hominem attack.

There are plenty of people - including myself - who are excited by
your sabotage of OSM efforts through OWL. Where can I send the
dynamite?

I encourage others who are supportive of your efforts to speak up.
Too often, there is silence in response to rude behavior on these
lists.



That's OK, I had grown a thick skin in recent years so I'm not bothered
by such e-mails. I just don't understand why we can't just talk to each
other.

I thought more about Roland's e-mail and it's maybe not as clear cut as
it may seem...

While I obviously was not trying to sabotage anything I do understand
why Roland may feel hurt by what I said at that meeting. Well, I didn't
say that much (basically -1 and that I don't agree with this solution)
- and that may precisely be the problem.

EWG meetings are one-hour sessions where random people like me can say
stuff. It's not the greatest way to discuss major features like
clickable POI's - there is simply no time. So a short -1 to describe
someone's months of work can be hurtful - I know I would be hurt if that
was how OWL or other work I'm passionate about was treated.

So I hereby apologize if that is how and why Roland felt. It seems in 
this case I myself am guilty of what I'm trying to argue against - 
simplifying what is not that simple - I should have explained my opinion 
better.


Let's just all come together and hug.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch


A bit off-topic but this sentence from Clifford's footer really stuck
with me.

Maps with a human touch - I like that, perhaps it could be more widely
used as a OSM slogan :-)

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Now take this Linux methaphor and apply it to OSM and its main
website. In my time that I spent following Rails Port and in
general main website development (about 6 months) I have seen 2
maybe 3 people writing major pieces of code for Rails Port, some of
those pieces have been rejected from merging for various reasons.


i, and i hope everyone else too, applaud those people for their
efforts. however, as every maintainer learns, it's a difficult
balancing act to merge new features while keeping quality high -
which sometimes means that some things don't get merged first time.
i'm certain that this happens in the linux kernel too, and it's
happened to me in the rails_port: i took the feedback, improved my
code and re-submitted.



I did not make my point clear enough. I meant that that *there are only
2 or maybe 3 people* writing major pieces of code for Rails Port and
then again it's not always easy to merge it (which is a good thing, I
agree).

Ideally people from the ecosystem would be willing to write some code to
integrate their cool projects into the main site. That is clearly not
happening.



i think we can be more optimistic than that - we're all trying to
improve OSM, so rather than endlessly discussing all the negative
things, perhaps we could get back to doing what we enjoy: writing
code / mapping / etc...



Sure, that's always good but note that another thread about OSM's future
ends in basically no conclusion. Or rather the conclusion seems to be
that all is fine and the future is secured with the current approach.

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/08/2013 08:32 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:


I will develop a survey with the help of anyone that wishes to
contribute.


That's a potentially good initiative but I would be careful so that it
does not degenerate into another kind of todo or wishlist, like this:

http://osm.uservoice.com/forums/41047-general

From my point of view the main problem is that there is simply not
enough people doing stuff (with the main site). For example: I have
subscribed to a lot (dozens) of wiki pages with technical documentation
several weeks ago. To this day I have only got maybe one notification
that someone changed something on these pages.

Like I said before, there is plenty of obvious work to be done before
we need to resort to defining a grand vision of the future.

My complaint about lack of conclusion to this thread was more about the
fact that... well, more about an impression than a fact I guess since I
can't seem to name it... there does not seem to be much momentum yet for
doing stuff like WikiMedia. Looking at their approach really shows how
more mature (although not always right - all those formal processes,
ewww) they are.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Hello Clifford,

Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of next
level that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.


It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work with
the community to build OSM for the future. I would think that at the
rate we are growing, we need to be planning for a much bigger
future.


Just a few days ago I replied to a mailing list thread about OSM's
market share with my thoughts on precisely this topic you mention in
the quote above:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/06.html

I am a developer so my area of interest is technical but I am sure that
in other areas like working with the community, communication and
advertising, data (handling vandalisms, imports) there is a similar
need for more involvement.

Sure it would be great to have the project run on volunteers - money
(some people being paid) thrown in the mix always causes problems at
some point - but I think it's becoming clear that OSM cannot reach that
next level without some sort of push... After all, it's normal in other
large projects/organizations that some people are working full time on
it. Perhaps OSM needs to evolve a little bit more to embrace such model?

The other problem is much simpler - where do you get the money from? I
thought about OSM Foundation getting involved and trying to get some
funding for the project. Not sure how that would work legally but at
this point there has to be a way to get money for development - it's
clear that many stakeholders and users of OSM want to see the project
moving forward and I'm sure some of them are willing to donate money.

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Julien,



Could it be possible to integrate the user classification visible
here ( http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/oooc) by example by adding the
same coloured man icon on the right of OSM User link. IMHO it could
be very usefull to know if an edit has been done by a new user of a
senior user



That's an interesting feature. I'm not sure if it belongs in OWL - maybe
it would make sense to implement that in the core website application so
that this seniority information could be used in all places where user
data is shown.

But that's more of a technical problem - the feature itself is a good
idea, I will make a note of it, thanks.

In general I would like to add some social feel to the new history tab
like displaying user avatar (I hit a technical problem with that for 
now) to make it more engaging than just a dump of changeset metadata.


Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your feedback - it is exactly what I was hoping for.



Things I've noticed: RSS gives this error: We're sorry, but something
went wrong.


Thanks, I'll fix that.


Scroll bar Gets 'stuck' as I move it down  some of the lettering
doesn't scroll (Firefox  17.01, Shockwave Flash 11.5 r502) Appears to
 work OK in IE (Haven't got Chrome)


Yes, I'm seeing it on Firefox 17 on Windows (on Linux it's OK). Not sure
what's going on but this looks very similar to the following more
general problem:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/162


When I click on an entity the pop-up balloon sometimes obscures it
making it hard to see the changes in geometry. Could the balloon be
positioned further away or make it movable?



Yeah, I noticed that too, not sure yet how to handle this properly.


Requests: Could the permalink be designed to display the history
side-bar?


Good idea, I added it here:

https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/issues/4


Open click-able pages into new tab as default (personal preference)


Hmm, not sure what to do here. I also prefer using new tabs but for that
I always use middle click.


Instead of having the 'next page' icon could a continuous scroll be
employed (similar to how twitter gets older messages)?


I thought about that but there's one problem - if there is continuous
scroll then you will get more and more changesets by scrolling down. And
that means that the user probably expects all of them to be displayed
and that's problematic because browser performance/responsivity
decreases very sharply as the number of geometry features grows beyond
some point.

This still needs to be solved even now with pages limited to 15
changesets - in some cases there is just too much stuff to show and the
browsers freezes.

I would love some thoughts on how to best solve this problem in a way
that is not too complicated for the user.


When hovering the mouse over an edit in the History bar the entities
for that edit dim to a light shade. Wouldn't it be better if it was
the other way around  all others dimmed while the edit your
interested in were emphasised (something similar to the way relations
are highlighted in Potlatch)?



OK, I will tweak color configuration.


Thanks for a superb tool that will save a lot of time for checking
edits.


I'm glad to hear people like it. I hope it will do more than just save 
time. I think it really brings OSM data to life and shows that it is 
really a wiki-like mapping project where anyone can change anything.


Anyway, thanks again for your feedback. For the future don't hesitate to 
create Github issues here if you want:


https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/issues

I will add a report a problem/idea link to the beta version, maybe it 
will help with getting more feedback.


Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Toby,

On 01/04/2013 12:41 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

Holy smokes this is great. What is the status of the data backing it?
I see one changeset a coworker just made to our office building (new
user today!) but a changeset I made to to highway west of town on
December 31st doesn't seem to be coming up.

This is the changeset that isn't showing up:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14482239



I'm still doing a lot of experimenting and changes and that means 
scratching the existing geometry tiles and starting all over again.


Generally I process around ~100k-200k changesets (usually with ids 
somewhere between 14M-14.5M) and then it's time to start again to get 
fresh tiles to check some changes in the code I made.


Once the tiling logic is stable I will process history.


Also, the link to the object ID in the popup bubbles when you click on
a change in the map is linked to
http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/abc



Yeah :-)

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/04/2013 10:18 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:


Correct - although the data shown in the history panel is from the live
database (via the replication feed) the actual database backing that
rails instance is separate so none of the changesets shown will exist.



Exactly. Same goes for nodes, ways and users. That is partly why I have 
not yet bothered with proper links to those objects but I will correct that.


Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/04/2013 09:50 AM, Christian Quest wrote:

Very nice improvement. Bravo !

Where should we report bugs/ideas ?



The code is here:

https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/tree/owl-history-tab

So the issues should probably go here for now:

https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/issues

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

On 01/04/2013 10:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote:

Pawel -

This is great.

What would it take to make this blazing fast?


There is still a lot challenges ahead with performance such as:

* On high zoom levels OWL API response time is acceptable most of the 
time but I only tested it with 1.5M changesets. Will it scale to 10 
times that? I think it will (on high zoom levels) without major changes 
but if it doesn't then database schema needs to be adjusted (SP-GiST 
indexing maybe).


* On low zoom levels there is a known issue with performance because a 
lot of changesets match and they need to then be sorted by timestamp to 
select the latest ones and the sorting right now does not use the index. 
I spoke with a Postgres guru on IRC and he gave me some hints which I 
still need to try out.


* Client-side performance is still a challenge - I managed to kill 
Firefox a couple of times with the amount of changes that the code tried 
to show. There should probably be a limit of geometry features to be 
shown (plus it should be based on the browser you use) and some kind of 
warning and/or filtering of changes just like the Browse map data 
feature does it currently.


* Another performance challenge is with processing history data and 
creating tiles. It used to take a long time but I optimized the hell out 
of the tiler code and now it can process about 500k changesets per 24 
hours so in a month we would have the whole history (in theory, don't 
try this at home...). That's on the zark server with two cores. More 
core = more tiling jobs that can run efficiently so it should not be 
that bad after all (unless the database blows up).


So to answer your question - mostly more testing and development is 
needed, for that I need time.




Echoing Christian: where should we file bugs/suggestions?



I enabled Issues on my fork of openstreetmap-website repo:

https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/issues

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Pierre,

 On 01/04/2013 01:52 AM, Pierre Béland wrote:


http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-1.70737lon=29.02081zoom=15layers=M



This is indeed a great example. I put the symbols in the sidebar one day 
just because it was easy to do (CSS classes and images were already 
there) and I wanted to show more information about each changeset in the 
list.


At first the idea of those symbols there seemed silly but now I'm 
starting to think it actually makes sense - you can see at a glance what 
is in a changeset and also somehow you can see the scale of a changeset 
as in your example where changesets have dozens of buildings.



In the History tab, the arrows at the bottom to go to the next page
could be more visual. You could maybe simply add a text like Next page.


Thanks for the suggestion.

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] Marketshare iPhone Google Maps Hits 10 Million Downloads in 48 Hours

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Johan,

On 01/03/2013 10:53 PM, Johan C wrote:

I´m quite surprised that so few OSM´ers are interested in discussing
the approach to gain market share for OSM. After my first posting mid
 December now Waze is in the news, with up to 30 million users:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/02/is-apple-plotting-a-route-to-a-waze-acquisition-rumours-on-the-road-point-to-yes/

 Any more ideas to the strategic issue of increasing market share for
 Openstreetmap?


What market are we discussing here? Waze looks like some social 
application which does not actually do too much but is nicely put 
together and promoted, probably also got some funding from venture 
capital and now it's cool.


My thoughts about OSM in this context:

1. OSM platform (database, osm.org and related services) is an 
*extremely* complex project from the technical perspective. I have been 
working for several hundreds man-hours in the past 3 months of my own 
time on a new History tab (more interactive etc) and I can tell you that 
this is one of the more complex projects I've ever worked on.


2. OSM (again - platform) is understaffed and underfunded to compete in 
any real way with such services like Waze, not to mention Google Maps or 
Bing where you have whole armies of engineers, designers etc.


3. Power of OSM is in the community but I agree that from strategic 
point of view OSM (osm.org/platform) needs to have more features, be 
more social, better-looking etc.


After 3 months of hard working on a new big feature for osm.org I can 
tell you that there is no way that OSM (platform) can compete with all 
these new hip services without having more contributors and/or having 
technical staff or contractors working around the clock. This stuff is 
simply too big, too complex and when you add new features it will 
consume even more maintenance time of the admins/developers - something 
has got to give. My guess is that some time in the next few years 
everything will blow up unless there's major change in how the OSM 
platform is developed in maintained.


The problem as always is money. I personally would be willing to work 
full time on the OSM platform but I need to eat and pay my bills like 
everyone else so I will soon need to go back to a regular job to earn 
money and my OSM related work will suffer - no new features. There is 
probably more people like me who would gladly get involved full time but 
who is going to pay for that?


Paweł

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[OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi all,

For some time now I've been working on the OpenStreetMap Watch List 
project[1] and on integrating OWL into the main OSM website.


At this point I've got something slowly approaching beta status and I 
would appreciate early feedback from the community.


You can see it in action here:

http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/

Couple of things:

* Zoom levels = 14 should be usable. On lower zoom levels it sometimes 
takes a lot of time to show history. Also I don't have clear idea yet 
what to really show on the lower zoom levels - what would be useful - so 
suggestions are welcome.


* I'm actively working on this instance so don't be surprised when 
something breaks or there is no data at all etc. - it's a beta version :-)


* You can click on nodes/ways in the map to get more details about 
changes :-)


Any comments are welcome.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OWL_(OpenStreetMap_Watch_List)

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] MapBox and OSM in Eclipse LocationTech

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi,

This has been discussed on the dev list several times already, see for 
example:


http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2012-October/025746.html
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2012-October/025970.html

Also see their blog:

http://mapbox.com/osmdev/

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tracking Something/Anything in OSM

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi,

There is a demo instance of the Activity Streams functionality:

http://suncobalt.dyndns.org:8081/

Zoom in to the area that you want and click Activity tab. There is a 
link for RSS.


Right now I'm working on a more general solution to storing change 
information because that's the main problem with such project - 
processing OSC files (or even augmented diffs) is not enough to provide 
relevant change data.


Paweł

On 10/22/2012 05:18 PM, Alex Rollin wrote:

How does one monitor something?

If there is a list of schools that is maintained by a school district,
is it possible that the school district can be notified if one of the
nodes/ways/items is changed?

Can someone take 2 minutes to write down what is involved in this?

Terms like ask the api for information about the object is the level
of understanding I have of this.

Is it possible?

Alex


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Re: [OSM-talk] Gauß' edits to turn resctrictions wiki pages

[Paweł Paprota]

Polish page also has been reverted (yesterday):

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Pl:Relation:restrictionaction=history

Paweł

On Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 12:00, Cobra wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 those of you reading tagging@ might have noticed a similar thread two
 weeks ago:
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2012-October/011573.html
 Someone in the German forum noticed that the German version has also been
 changed by Gauß. There seems to be a consensus that Gauß has good
 intentions, but that the way he added his ideas to these pages isn't
 really acceptable. His proposal has some flaws which certainly break a
 lot of applications. His ideas might be fine, but they need to be
 discussed and fixed before adding them to the main wiki page.
 
 Today I noticed that he changed all other language versions as well. The
 English and Russian page have already been reverted. Some language
 versions contain the original English text, some have a translated
 version.
 Are there any objections against reverting his changes to these pages?
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Activity Stream (a.k.a. social OSM) - demo instance

[Paweł Paprota]

On 10/16/2012 03:44 PM, Alex Barth wrote:

Very interesting.

Activities seems to be going for replacing the history tab - am I seeing this 
right? I was expecting activity streams an expansion of the 'your friends' feed 
on my user profile. I. e. while on the history tab I get a complete changeset 
listing, on Activities I see summaries of people or places I'm interested in 
(how the latter would work is not fleshed out at all atm in OSM). I'd like to 
understand better where you see activity streams falling between functionality 
we now accomodate under the History tab and the friend feed.


I added the Activity tab simply on a whim :-) Activity Server as it is 
can serve an activity stream in different formats for different scopes, 
i.e.:


1. For a given bounding box (Activity tab)
2. For a given activity actor (author of the activity)
3. For a given activity recipient (my own activity stream as I call 
it) - not yet fully implemented


I will be focusing more on (2) and (3) now that the demo instance is 
more or less up and running. The idea is to provide a personal wall / 
activity stream for each user and also a third party view activity 
stream - when looking at someone's user page there are currently 
activities of that person listed.


Another thing is what you mention as places I'm interested in - there 
are some tickets for that in Trac and I think this definitely needs to 
be built. Activity Server side of things is ready - place I'm 
interested in is just a bounding box after all so it's not a problem to 
retrieve an activity stream for such places, potentially even for many 
places at once and get one unified view - a lot of possibilities now 
that the backend is in place.


As for the History tab - we discussed this briefly yesterday on the EWG 
meeting as there is a Top Ten Task for implementing an OWL-powered 
history/activity tab. As I see it, History could just be a more 
advanced view of the Activity - showing changesets with all the gory 
details such as links to OsmChange XML etc. I don't think those two 
thinks conflict with each other - it's only a matter of putting it all 
together and avoiding UI clutter.


Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] help.osm.org - platform migration research

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi again,

I think I have finished the research[1] before today's EWG meeting.

I have focused on Shapado since it looks most promising and has a great
i18n support. Migration effort would be large but in exchange we would
get a truly international QA platform.

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks/Progress/Support_for_multiple_languages_on_help.osm.org#Update_.28October_2012.29

Paweł

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012, at 12:41, Paweł Paprota wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 During the EWG meeting last week I volunteered to research migration
 feasibility for the help.osm.org platform migration due to i18n problems
 with current software (OSQA).
 
 I have started putting together some content on the wiki (see [1]), if
 you want to get involved, either by suggesting new software candidates
 or by providing more in-depth information for a specific candidate,
 please do.
 
 BTW, this is only a research - migration is just one of the options to
 resolve this Top Ten Task - so it does not mean that help.osm.org will
 be moving away from OSQA. The purpose of this exercise is to provide
 alternatives.
 
 [1]
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks/Progress/Support_for_multiple_languages_on_help.osm.org#Update_.28October_2012.29
 
 Paweł

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[OSM-talk] Activity Stream (a.k.a. social OSM) - demo instance

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi all,

I've been working and working on this stuff or a few weeks now, I guess
now is as good time as any to show a pre-pre-alpha version :-)

So what I have for you today is a demo instance [1] of the Rails Port
that is integrated with Activity Server by means of the new Activity tab
- this tab shows activity for selected (displayed on the screen)
bounding box.

For now it looks similar to the History tab but it is fully powered by
the Activity Server which means that in the (near) future there will be
more information there than just changeset activities - I hope to
integrate diary entries, new mappers in your area, events, OSM Tasking
Manager, help.osm.org and ponies.

Changeset descriptions are of course powered by an integrated instance
of the great Changemonger project courtesy of emacsen.

There is also an early version of user page activity stream, e.g. [2].

Couple of notes:

* Yes, some (most) of the activity stream functionality is just for show
(comments, zoom, reloading) but could be relatively easily implemented -
I would love to hear people's opinions.
* Apidb contains only data for Poland so you probably won't find your
user in this instance.
* Activities are being currently generated based on an Europe database
and the replication is catching up (now it's at the end of September) so
new activities pop up constantly as replication progresses.

Let me know what you think about functionality and otherwise.

[1] http://suncobalt.dyndns.org:8081/
[2] http://suncobalt.dyndns.org:8081/user/SegMar

If you want to know more about this effort, see:

https://github.com/ppawel/osm-activity-server
https://github.com/ppawel/osm-activity-publishers
https://github.com/ppawel/openstreetmap-website/tree/social-osm

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Activity Stream (a.k.a. social OSM) - demo instance

[Paweł Paprota]

When you zoom in to a small area there is indeed no activities in many
places - there is only ~8000 activities in the database at this point,
replication is still in progress.

As for the translation - I have added an English one but for some reason
it is not being picked up in Javascript, so it's a bug. But for now I
would propose to ignore the details and focus on the concept, such as
for example:

* Is presentation as a separate tab and on the user page useful?
* Do you think commenting on activities would be a useful feature?

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Activity Stream (a.k.a. social OSM) - demo instance

[Paweł Paprota]

 IMHO the separate tabs on osm.org are a little bit fuzzy in their 
 concept, yet.
 We have tabs for search, data details, map key, export and your proposed 
 activities.
 The Tab concept as it's used currently lacks combination possibilities: 
 It's not possible to show any combination of tabs, which would be useful 
 especially for the activity stuff.
 I personally don't want to actively crawl the activity, but have it at 
 hand while using osm.org as a mapper; keep it open and see what happend 
 while diving into a data detail with the data tab or exporting an image.
 
 But as long as there's nothing changed in what we have now, well... it's 
 one simple and fitting possibility, that doesn't harm the current page ;)
 (to make that clear: the feature itself is cool, that doesn't harm, I'm 
 talking about the implentation as tab here only).

This kind of feedback is exactly what I'm looking for at this stage. I
wanted to have activity stream for displayed bounding box so I used the
simplest possible implementation (technically speaking) - a new tab. But
I agree that it is a bit awkward in terms of user experience.

The problem is that I'm a developer... I'm sure I can come up with some
kind of UX design for this but there are people who would do this much
better and in shorter time... it would be great to have someone look at
this and just point out obvious problems like you did.

I think that the activity on the main page feature could be used to
nicely show off OSM's core philosophy - that the map is actively built
by people. A newcomer will likely immediately go to their own home area
with the map and if they see that there are other mappers nearby this
could further motivate them to join OSM.

Right now I'm not sure how to implement it better in terms of UX... As I
said this is pre-pre-alpha so there's a lot of other stuff to work on
but at some point UX will start to matter as much as anything else... so
suggestions/ideas/mockups/whatever welcome.

  * Do you think commenting on activities would be a useful feature?
 For blog posts I think we have that already, which raises the question 
 if that should be something on the activity stream or on the activity 
 itself at source side.

Yeah that is confusing, I guess the comment link could go to diary
entry in this case...

 You proposed yet
 - diary entries: these have comments already. I think, it should be 
 possible to show them, probably to add them, but comments should be 
 attatched to the blog, not to the activity server here.

+1

 - new mappers in your area: commenting? I would like to see a link to 
 send them a osm message instead.
 - OSM Tasking Manager: not sure, don't know much about it.
 - events: shouldn't comments go to the wiki page etc. where they are 
 pulled from?
 - help.osm.org: a link to provide that help would be better (again 
 direct at the help system)
 - ponies: no comment (please ;) )
 

These are good points. The idea for comments is that it is a very easy
way to communicate. I think it definitely makes sense for changesets
because there is no other way to communicate with people on changeset
level other than sending a private message which is more work than just
clicking comment and typing something.

But for other activities as you point out this may not be so useful.
Thanks for your comments on this (pun intended ha ha).

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Activity Stream (a.k.a. social OSM) - demo instance

[Paweł Paprota]

Sure, this is the whole Poland:

http://suncobalt.dyndns.org:8081/?lat=51.61lon=22.44zoom=7layers=M

BTW, the activities are not reloaded automatically (and the Reload
button doesn't work - I will fix that in a minute) right now so when you
change the bounding box you need to click Activity tab again - maybe
that's why you couldn't find activities anywhere?

Paweł

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[OSM-talk] help.osm.org - platform migration research

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi all,

During the EWG meeting last week I volunteered to research migration
feasibility for the help.osm.org platform migration due to i18n problems
with current software (OSQA).

I have started putting together some content on the wiki (see [1]), if
you want to get involved, either by suggesting new software candidates
or by providing more in-depth information for a specific candidate,
please do.

BTW, this is only a research - migration is just one of the options to
resolve this Top Ten Task - so it does not mean that help.osm.org will
be moving away from OSQA. The purpose of this exercise is to provide
alternatives.

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks/Progress/Support_for_multiple_languages_on_help.osm.org#Update_.28October_2012.29

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] User activity stream - progress update

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Tobias,

Thank you very much for your response!

 
 Brainstorm of things I would find interesting in a stream follows:
 
 - activity from other *.osm.org services (forum, help, wiki watchlist)
 - posts from blogs.osm.org (not unlike diaries, but hosted externally)
 - releases of OSM-related software the mapper uses / is interested in
 - local media featuring OSM - basically, an integrated regionally
 filtered view of http://wiki.osm.org/OpenStreetMap_in_the_media
 - upcoming calendar events (http://wiki.osm.org/Template:Calendar),
 again filtered by geographical area
 

Wow, these are some great ideas. I really had a hard time coming up with
more possible activities than just the obvious ones (diary entries,
changesets).

 As for the upcoming events, does that even fit the activity concept?
 It seems a bit redundant to expect people to repeatedly remind you of a
 known future event when you could just automatically generate a list of
 upcoming events in the area. (But then I'm not really into that social
 thing. ;))
 

Hmm, this is a good point. I used calendar events on Facebook several
times and it is rather outside of the activity stream / news feed (or
whatever they call it).

Activity stream only contains activities like User X is going to attend
event Y - but this would require some mechanism so users are able to
say I'm going to that event and for now I think this is out of scope
for a simple activity stream.

 Some of of what I mentioned above should already be available as RSS
 feeds. How hard will it be to turn a feed into activities, and vice
 versa?
 

I think that having user's activity stream exposed as RSS/ATOM is one of
the basic requirements, it is easy to implement (once the server is
implemented :-).

Turning RSS/ATOM into activities would be an interesting feature. Some
questions already in my mind - how to recognize which users are
interested in a given RSS item? Does the whole RSS feed go to all users?

 And finally, another question: Will your server be able to do filtering
 by geographic location? That is, can an application just add some
 coordinate or bounding polygon to an activity, so it will be distributed
 to the relevant users (maybe based on the home location these have set
 on osm.org) by your server? Doing this would seem like a common
 requirement.
 

Currently the idea for the activity server is to make it as simple as
possible - it is not even aware of OSM users, their friend lists, their
home location.

Currently the responsibility of addressing the activity lies with the
activity publisher. So an application has to say to the server:

User X created new diary entry. Notify users A, B and C about this

This greatly simplifies the server implementation but on the other hand
puts more responsibility on the activity publisher. 

In the light of your message and requirements that you mentioned I (and
perhaps other developers can comment as well) need to rethink the
approach here. Perhaps it would make more sense to make the activity
server aware of OSM users and then the publisher would just say:

User X created new diary entry.

And the server would find X's home location, friends and distribute the
activity accordingly.

Thanks again for your message, as you can see the implementation is in
very early stages and new ideas is extremely important because it shapes
the technical details.

Paweł

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: New Working Group Welcome WG

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Richard,

I read the proposal and to be honest I'm not sure about the hypothesis
(Early contact increases mapper engagement). For me it would seem kind
of creepy if a website that I've just registered and done something on
contacted me personally saying You've added a restaurant.

I think that the general purpose is great - get to know mappers, why
they decide to leave the project etc. but I would say that messaging
people is not a good way to achieve that. It's just too... personal.

I would much prefer (as a user - not a new user - but remembering my
first changesets :-) that this kind of goals are achieved through good
website and editing usability, context-relevant help and some kind of
tutorials. So in the above example, there would be a message on the
website saying Did you know that you can add the address? instead of
someone contacting the user and asking them...

I have seen several new people's reactions to OSM editing tools,
usability and documentation and to say that they were confused is to put
it lightly... One person was surprised when I redirected them to OSM
forums - there are forums???.

So in general I am inclined to agree with what Andy said in this thread
already - OSM tools and documentation are hard to understand and as he
put it writing stuff that's easy to use is really, really, hard. and I
agree 100% with that statement.

Perhaps the Welcome Working Group could borrow something from the (now
defunct?) User Experience Working Group's mission statement:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/User_Experience_Working_Group

After all, osm.org is the common denominator for all newcomers - they
all have to go through it, this is their first contact with the project
so I imagine that things like user-friendliness, clean user interface
often make or break new mappers.

Paweł

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[OSM-talk] User activity stream - progress update

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi all,

Back in August I made some noise on IRC and mailing lists about the
activity stream stuff. We had some discussions about technical approach
which were very useful to me. Since then I got side tracked with other
work, both OSM related and otherwise.

However, this weekend I've started implementing what I call
OpenStreetMap Activity Server. You can learn more about it from
project description on GitHub:

https://github.com/ppawel/osm-activity-server/blob/master/README.md

The idea is simple enough: applications can publish activities to the
Activity Server and the server in turn is able to serve user's activity
stream - so Rails Port would retrieve such stream to display it on the
user page for example.

As for publishing activities, there are a few things I have in mind:

1. Mapping activity - an application would analyze current changesets
and publish activities to the Activity Stream so that users see what is
going on in their region. In addition, OWL could publish activities for
users interested in specific areas (although I have not looked into OWL
so not sure if this is feasible).

2. Diary entries - these could get more exposure through the activity
stream.

3. Status update activities - hopefully not like Facebook's I just
ate a good sandwich but more like Let's go map the forest on
Saturday.

Well, these are just some ideas anyway...

Let me know what you think, feel free to comment on the code (which is
in a very early stage obviously) or on the idea in general.

PS. Excuse the cross post but I feel this is relevant both to users and
developers at this point (e.g. would be nice to hear if users actually
want something like this...).

Paweł

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