Re: [talk-au] Victorian Vicmap Address Import Proposal

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi Andrew,
indeed a great initiative and yes the NSW import has stalled way too 
long.


You will also need to detail how to deal with Unit numbers. For the NSW 
import there where many single houses that had several entries like 12A, 
12B and 12-2 Lakewook Road. Do you import them as individual nodes? or 
just one omitting A/B/2?


My comments, also based on some of my NSW import experience below in 
line.


Cheers, Seb

Am 2021-05-19 14:48, schrieb Andrew Harvey via Talk-au:

Some specific topics for discussion/feedback I have so far are:

1. How should we handle existing address interpolation ways? Should
these be left as they are or replaced with individually mapped address
points? I'm proposing we replace.

2. Should we also import `addr:suburb`, `addr:state` and
`addr:postcode` tags? I'm proposing we do.


I vote for adding the information. I have been adding it where possible.
In theory the POI should know in which State or LGA it sits but the 
reality is that this does not result in the user having complete 
addresses on the POI. E.g. restaurants don't have the suburb 
automatically shown in OSMAnd.


I would also argue that the information is part of the full address of 
the house/building. Else I dare say we should have a similar discussion 
for phone numbers. We don't need to add +61 or (0)2 as this is implicit 
by the POI location.




Given postcode regions aren't mapped, then adding these to the address
should be very helpful.

`addr:state` is less important given these addresses fall within the
Victoria state admin boundary already. The wiki touches on this saying
"A few mappers consider higher-level tags, or even addr:city=* as
redundant, since they could be calculated from the respective boundary
relations they are contained in (if present and valid). However, such
practice has severe disadvantages and can lead to wrong results."

Either way, I don't think it matters too much, but since it's not
harmful to include, and might provide some benefit, then we may as
well include `addr:state`?


State and post code are part of the full address. I vote for including 
it.




`addr:suburb` is similar to `addr:state`, suburb/locality boundaries
are already well mapped in Victoria. Since we have this detail from
the source data I think we probably should still include it.

3. `addr:suburb` vs `addr:city`.

Both tags are in use within Australia. According to taginfo
(https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/australia-oceania/australia/search?q=addr%3A)
within Australia addr:suburb occurs 521 ,671 times and addr:city
562,542 times.

The iD address preset fields uses addr:suburb.

Victoria only has a handful of place=city objects
(https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/17vc), Melbourne, Geelong, Ballarat,
Bendigo, Shepparton, Warrnambool, Traralgon, Bairnsdale, Wangaratta,
Wodonga, Horsham, Mildura.

Because for addressing, it's the suburb/locality that appears on the
address not the city (eg. Melbourne place/city covers the whole
greater melbourne urban area, but not all the addresses here include
"Melbourne", only those within the CBD area where the Melbourne
place=suburb exists.

While in rural areas it's a locality not a suburb, the two usually go
hand in hand, and I'd say it's okay to still tag these as addr:suburb
even though it's technically a locality and not a suburb.

In this way I'd argue that addr:city has no place in Australia
(convince me otherwise).




Not sure if I want to convince you.
To me this sounds like different names for the same thing. Aren't City 
or Suburb just different words for the next level up from Street?


The Auspost is referring to 'placename/suburb/locality' page 25 
https://auspost.com.au/content/dam/auspost_corp/media/documents/australia-post-addressing-standards-1999.pdf


For the NSW import I recall that I settled for city=corresponds to a post code>.




Maybe for this import, where we find an address existing in OSM and it
has addr:city which matches the addr:suburb from our Vicmap address,
then we automatically swap it to addr:suburb?
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Re: [talk-au] Contributions to Road Geometry in Perth,

[Sebastian Spiess]

On 3/9/20 9:38 pm, Ian Steer wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 19:23:21 +1000
>> From: "Sebastian S." 
>> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Contributions to Road Geometry in Perth,
>>  Australia
>> Hi,
>> I have made excessive use of the node tag for islands.
>> Particularly for pedestrian crossing.
>>
>> Splitting the road into two separate ways for only a few metres seems 
>> excessive to me. Even when there is a several Meter long raised kerb 
>> separating the lanes I would not >split the road.
> Could you please elaborate on this method you have been using ?
>
> Ian


Hi Ian,

have a look at Marianna Road

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/176612937#map=19/-33.69876/151.28378

where I have used islands for stretches in the road that are separated
by a concrete barrier. (Height is like a curb so it could be argued if
this is segregated enough)

but even if the road was split by a proper island for the length of the
intersection I would not split the way.

Seb


>
>
> On 1 September 2020 10:05:42 pm AEST, Andrew Harvey 
>  wrote:
>> Heads up, looks like their team has started to map in Perth, see on 
>> OSMCha
>> -> https://osmcha.org/?aoi=80b50a6d-6bb5-48cb-8ac4-4b2ddd9d5d76
>>
>> Mostly looks okay to me, and mostly minor tweaks, though I raised a few 
>> questions and issues on changeset comments but also listed most of them
>> here:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/840589945/history was added but the 
>> existing road name and other applicable attributes were not applied.
>> This
>> same issue happens in quite a few other places too so appears to be 
>> systemic. I've raised some changeset comments but worth including this 
>> as part of the standard practice by your editing team.
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/842851495/history is that a 
>> roundabout? I can't tell from the Maxar imagery, yet that is the 
>> claimed source, how could you tell from the imagery what this is?
>>
>> I personally find splitting ways for a traffic island at roundabouts 
>> like in https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/840189281/history a tad to 
>> excessive (would prefer to just tag the node as traffic island and use 
>> one way, gives a much cleaner dataset as the transition between dual 
>> and single carriageways is always messy) but I guess it's not wrong and 
>> both styles are popular in OSM currently. Does the community have a 
>> view on this?
>>
>> Unclear source of the turn restriction in
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/90223764#map=18/-32.04553/115.8
>> 0953
>>
>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 21:28, OSM NextBillion. AI 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you cleary for valuable insights, we would be more cautious
>> while
>>> mapping in such areas. While Satellite Imagery is our prime resource,
>> we’d
>>> consider mapillary photos as well wherever available. We do have some 
>>> expert assistance in our team for interpreting satellite imagery and
>> map
>>> something only if we’re double sure of it’s existence. We will refer
>> to
>>> mappers history before editing existing data to understand if it was 
>>> created using local expertise and would change only if there is
>> conclusive
>>> evidence from satellite and mapillary imageries.
>>>
>>> We will reach out to local mapping experts through forum and/or
>> changeset
>>> comments if we require further help.
>>>
>>> Thank you all once again for the suggestions, we look forward to
>> working
>>> with you all. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 05:35, cleary  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the interest in mapping in Australia and thanks for
>> posting
 your plans on this list.

 I would add to the caution expressed by others.  I live in an urban 
 location in Australia but I have travelled in other areas within 
 Australia.  It has taken me quite some time to learn to interpret
>> satellite
 imagery and I still have a lot to learn about this country.  After 
 personally visiting areas and noting what I see, and sometimes
>> taking
 photographs, I then return home and compare my notes with what I see
>> in the
 imagery and I am still surprised.  I think it can be quite
>> precarious to
 map features using just satellite imagery unless you have expert
>> assistance
 in interpreting the imagery.  For example, a common error by others
>> has
 been to map lines of cleared vegetation as roads when they are
>> actually
 fences. Even where an unmapped road exists, it is probably still
>> unmapped
 because it is a private road and not accessible by the public - many
>> of the
 roads on rural properties in Australia are private and, if added to
>> the
 map, need to marked as such. Farmers get annoyed about intruders on
>> their
 farms especially as biosecurity is a significant concern in parts of 
 Australia.

 So while I appreciate contributions to the map, I suggest that
>> "armchair"
 mapping needs to be undertaken with a lot of caution.




 On Sat, 15 Aug 2020, at 

Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Sebastian Spiess]

On 8/9/20 3:14 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 10:12, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
> Reading what is stated by Queensland Health on its website, as you
> have quoted it, I think that taking the information and
> incorporating into OSM is one of the areas that requires the
> permission of Queensland Health. 
>
>  
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 13:11, Andrew Harvey  > wrote:
>
>
> Yeah I don't see how we can use that, for starters "No
> Derivatives" means we can't adapt it into a new work, which is
> exactly what incorporating it in OSM is doing. 
>
>
> Thanks, fellas.
>
> Had hoped that it may have been OK :-(
>
> Ahh well, will write them a letter & see what they say?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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A bit late to the thread here but I'm curious who's going to treat me at
a clinic? From Cleary's explanation I take it there is no need to have a
'medical practitioner' there at all?

I think it makes sense to document the usage of tags for AU and rural AU
in the wiki as suggested

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Re: [talk-au] Admin_level discussion for Australia

[Sebastian Spiess]

On 19/9/20 10:08 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 09:29, cleary  > wrote:
>
>
> In regard to ABS data ... I understand that it was added into OSM
> when it was the only data for which we could get permission.  ABS
> statistical areas approximate suburb boundaries (perhaps 90%
> similarity).  In the Sydney suburb where I live, the ABS boundary
> is almost exactly the suburb boundary that existed more than 20
> years ago (last century!) but the official boundary has now
> changed. Now that we have accurate data on suburbs/localities, I
> think we should remove references to ABS data.
>
> In regard to mapping localities ...  I don't have knowledge of the
> Gold Coast but, in NSW, I see localities as non-specific areas
> without precise boundaries and which are are smaller places within
> the bounded places usually referred to as suburbs.  If there are
> official boundaries for Gold Coast localities, then I withdraw my
> comments. However generally I think the suburbs are best mapped as
> areas with precise boundaries while localities are mapped as
> nodes. In rural areas, these places are often unpopulated and
> mapped as "place=locality" or one or two houses mapped as
> "place=isolated_dwelling" (both of which I have used).  In
> metropolitan areas, they can be mapped with a node
> "place=neighbourhood" (which I have used) or "place=quarter"
> (which I have not used).
>
>
> For place=* yes best to use local knowledge, but for the actual
> administrative regions (which is what's being proposed for import
> here) as boundary=administrative, there are no gaps, so anywhere on
> the country has a suburb/locality administrative regions.
>
> It makes sense to co-mingle the place=* and boundary=administrative
> where they are the same, especially for suburban suburbs, but in rural
> areas if the imported region doesn't matchup with the place name, then
> you can separate out the boundary=administrative from the place=*.
>
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I'm not clear on what would be used for Level 10 if Suburb/Locality is
moved to Level 9. However if there is a sensible use even in one or two
sates/territories then I think AU wide we should shift to Level9.

Would it make sense to add existing and suggested authoritative source
for each level to the spreadsheet? Thanks for the ABS background!

Cheers,

Seb


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Re: [talk-au] Namespace for maintenance tags

[Sebastian Spiess]

On 19/9/20 3:58 pm, Warin wrote:
> On 17/9/20 11:40 am, Andrew Davidson wrote:
>> On 15/9/20 10:53 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. psma:loc_pid. Where this is a stable ID that is used as a
>>> reference, the existing ref tag is better for this. If we want to be
>>> more specific then ref:psma or something like that would work. No
>>> need to invent new tags here when one already exists, is well
>>> documented and in widespread use.
>>>
>>
>> I have been pondering this further and I'm wondering if these type of
>> maintenance tags would be more appropriate in the note namespace. So:
>>
>> note:*=*
>>
>> rather than
>>
>> ref:*=*
>>
>> as note=* is for information for other mappers.
>>
>> Any thoughts/objections/counter proposals?
>
>
> notes tend to be alerts for caution?
>
> What about using comment:*=* as these tend to be informative, perhaps
> too casual?
>
>
>
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Hi all,

adding my 2cts.

I'm for using ref= or ref:xxx= as these would be references. Referencing
or relating to the PSMA data set. I don't see comment as suitable when
there is a reference tag for referencing identifiers.

With regards to upload first and then clean up later. I am against it.
If preparing a change locally and merging it into the existing map prior
to uploading is too complicated now, who is going to see through what
needs to be done later?

I am an advocate of doing it right first time and therefore I suggest to
review if by going slower this can be achieved. e.g. break the task up
into smaller bit but do them right using task manager. If consistency is
required a wiki or local note file has helped me in the past to be
consistent over a lengthy time.

Cheers,

Seb


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Re: [talk-au] Working with local government

[Sebastian Spiess]

On 9/7/20 7:52 pm, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote:
>
>
>
> Jul 9, 2020, 06:50 by greg.dutkow...@gmail.com:
>
> Hi,
> Bicycle Network Tasmania are trying to improve the quality of
> cycling infrastructure information in OSM.
> Much has been done by volunteers in various jurisdictions, and we
> have done lots locally, but the tagging is quite complex for cycle
> paths and not always correct.
> Local councils are responsible for much of the infrastructure, but
> they usually have little interaction with OSM.
> It would be most efficient if the councils GIS data worked in
> tandem with OSM data so that they kept each other up to date, each
> storing the info that is most useful for them. For instance, for
> bike parking, there is little utility in OSM storing the asset
> numbers and other info that the councils use to maintain their
> assets (although the ref tag could be used as a foreign key to
> help keep the two in sych).
> The Hobart councils we work with are concerned with the quality of
> the data in OSM and the ability of anyone to change it.
> Does anyone know of any examples we could learn from of local
> government itself working to keep OSM data up to date?
> Thanks.
>
> One of the easiest things that local government may do is to
>
> 1) publish their datasets on an open license allowing to use it by mappers
> 2) react to reports of mistakes in their data
>
> Both work relatively well in Poland for address data - with publishing
> required by
> national law (though still ignored be many local governments)
>
> Note that (1) is useful for mappers even if data quality is
> unsufficient to import it
> into OSM. I am using a bit noisy bicycle parking in locating unmapped ones
> (often location, description and real location mismatches
> significantly, but
> almost always it allows me to find something that was missing in OSM)
>
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Hi, indeed great to see you reach out.

Yes I agree that a good approach is to make the data open. However, I
understand Greg is asking if there are working concepts on how to
maintain a link between local government GIS (which might have
additional information) and OSM data.

Once the relevant information has been entered into OSM, how is the
council to track the data? e.g. to see if tags get modified, nodes
moved, added.

e.g. worst case is that a nicely mapped and tagged area gets re-done by
someone. This results in new node and way numbers.

A good example would be a single node gets expanded by OSM users.

In both cases the data is diverging from another. How to keep track? Are
there concepts/solutions?

Yes

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[talk-au] LPI NSW images not loading

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hello,

is anyone else having issues with NSW LPI images not loading in JOSM?

This also seems to be the case for iD.

Regards,

Seb



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[talk-au] Bus stops in Sydney

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hello list,

it's been a while for me to be active, life got in the way :-) I hope
everyone is sane and safe.


Every now and then I add some bus stops around my area. I wanted to add
operator and network tags as well but am not quite sure.


What I found so far was:

    network=Sydney Buses
    operator=State Transit Authority, Transit Systems West
    operator=Transport NSW
    network=Sydney Buses Network
    network=TNSW - Sydney Buses
    operator=State Transit Authority
    operator=Sydney Busses
    This is as a result of this query https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VMz

Now my first point for a source is/was https://transportnsw.info where
I've learned that NSW is structured in several Regions
(https://transportnsw.info/regions#/) and Sydney is in the "Sydney and
surrounds" region (https://transportnsw.info/regions/sydney-surrounds)

This region has a multitude of operators providing different types of
services. One the operators page (https://transportnsw.info/operators) I
can filter for Sydney + Bus. In the big list I can find "State Transit"
(https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/state-transit) and by the images of
the buses there I guess that most of the stops I'm adding are from that
operator.

This leads me to believe operator="State Transit" correct. But reading
on https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/state-transit/about-us I can learn
that they are an organisation of 3,500 people with approximately 2,900
bus operators. Which leaves me again puzzled and unsure.

So the tags I currently thing are correct are

    operator=Transport for NSW

    network=Sydney Buses

but I'm sure there are others that can shed a better light onto this and
maybe provide some guidance.


Cheers,

Sebastian





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[talk-au] traffic_calming=choker and table

[Sebastian Spiess]

I've come across a few by now but not sure how to tag them.

It is a table with a choker - example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-33.75158/151.25648

There are at least 5 of them in the vicinity of the example. Can we
create new tags?

traffic_calming=choked_table ?

While the wiki notes some aussie special - choked_island
.
This is not mentioned in the wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming

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Re: [talk-au] Shoulder and cycle usage

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi,

your case 1 appears to me like a parking lane. With or without cycle
lane this is a common occurrence in most suburbs. I've asked about
parking lanes some time ago.

case 2 - what is the lane between the two continuous lines for?

case 3 - this is where I ask me at what width does a shoulder start
being a shoulder?

case 4 - have not notices that one.

I give you case 5 - similar to case 3 but with markings to indicate
bicycle use, on junctions there are even green cycle lanes.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-32.78641/151.92969

Case 5 was the reason I've raise the question. Following your cases I
would tag it (shouder=yes, cycleway=lane) I do recall signs with bikes
on them along the road, which I would interpret as official cycle way?
However I noticed that there was no line marked on the outside of the road.


I think that the shoulder tag is more important on higher level roads
and rural roads. In urban areas, residential roads I would use the
parking lane tags.


On 23/1/20 5:34 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and particularly
> when they have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
>
> I've seen a few different scenarios.
>
> - a dedicate cycle lane (only used as a cyclelane, not an emergency
> shoulder) cycleway=lane + shoulder=no
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.81151/151.18789
> - a shoulder which doubles as a marked cycle lane (it's an emergency
> shoulder, but with markings to indicate bicycle use) (shouder=yes,
> cycleway=lane)
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.64938/150.84838
> - a shoulder which can be used by bicycles but has no bicycle markings
> or signage (shoulder=yes cycleway=no, bicycle=yes)
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-34.58996/150.60760
> - have both a cycle lane and a shoulder, though segregated by paint
> (cycleway=lane, shoulder=yes) - no way to distinguish this from case
> (2) eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/-33.43134/151.29444
>
> I admit though this can be subjective.
>
> So my rule of thumb is if there is a painted marking for bicycles and
> it's separated from other traffic from paint then use cycleway=lane,
> you can also then consider if this is a road shoulder too and add
> shoulder=yes if so.
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 14:30, Ian Sergeant  > wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> Shoulders should always be tagged appropriately.
>
> Shoulders legally in Australia can be used by all bicycles -
> whether or not they have a bicycle stencil (painted bicycle sign) 
> And a bicycle lane is legally indicated by a sign and not a
> stencil.  Legally the stencil has no meaning at all.
>
>
> My view is we should be tagging based on the effective feature on the
> ground, and not solely based on if it meets a specific legal
> classification. So while legally it might need to meet certain
> crieteria to be an official "cycle lane" so long as it's dedicated for
> use by bicycles and separated from other traffic, it's effectively a
> cycleway=lane in OSM.

I've also seen some shoulders that are quite rough and not great cycle
lanes.

>  
>
> My personal advice currently in Australia is to caution against
> indicating there is bicycle infrastructure where there is no
> amenity.   Since, this is a far greater problem in OSM than
> missing cycle routes and infrastructure, and takes far longer to
> correct and survey.  Google Maps has actually come from behind to
> lead OSM in this aspect now in Sydney in most areas.
>
Ian, could you clarify the problem? I understand you refer to amenity as
in signs and stencils for cycle routes?
>
> Are there any places in particular you think we are lacking? I've been
> working hard to add new recently built infrastructure and well as
> remove cycle tags from OSM where there is nothing left on the ground
> anymore.
>  
>
> That said, most motorways that have a wide shoulder, a cycle
> stencil, and permit cycling have a bicycle lane indicated.  I
> think this is probably appropriate.
>
> Ian.
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 14:19, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> Hi, what is the view of tagging road shoulders and
> particularly when they have painted bicycle signs?
>
> Motorways would be another candidate.
>
> A wiki entry for shoulder exists but is very basic
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder___
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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Sebastian Spiess]

I've done a few. Two raised questions.

Narrabri - There are two fire ' services'  according to LPI map. How to 
tag them?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79336523

and RAYMOND TERRACE Fire Station - This seems to be and old fire station 
as according to https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/news.php?news=608

a new one was built. I can't tell if the old one was closed down.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79336870


Am 2020-01-08 21:24, schrieb Andrew Harvey:

If someone has carefully surveyed the name as signposted I leave that
intact. branch is not mandatory but helpful since consumers can choose
how they want to format the such as "Narooma", "Narooma RFS", "Narooma
Rural Fire Brigade", etc. especially when combined with operator. The
whole point was to be neutral on the exact name format and not engage
in a mass edit to reformat them to be the same, but instead respect
names will look different based on signage.

On Wed, 8 Jan 2020 at 21:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


I have used the LPI Base Map for both name and operator, see

Way: Narooma Fire Station (761122699) [operator fire & rescue]

and

Way: Narooma Rural Fire Service (761122698)

I do not bother with the 'branch' as that is usually the leading
value in the name and probably the same as the areas administration
name too.

The LPI Base Map also gives the area so it can be mapped as a way.

On 08/01/20 16:13, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

No, just confirming details was all I was thinking about!

Thanks

Graeme

On Wed, 8 Jan 2020 at 14:57, Andrew Harvey
 wrote:

It's normally considered okay to check a business website as a
reference and picking up their contact details, but to err on the
side of caution taking a whole database from fire.nsw.gov.au [1] and
mass importing is not advised.

So I'd suggest not just copying everything from that website. For
the RFS operated fire stations normally the name will indicate this,
or a quick look at google search results may also indicate,
sometimes it's visible on Mapillary based on the signage.

On Wed, 8 Jan 2020 at 15:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick
 wrote:

Just a thought?

Are we allowed to use  https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=467
or not?

I've thinking we would still need permission & waiver?

Big question, I guess, is - are we commercial or not?

Thanks

Graeme




Links:
--
[1] http://fire.nsw.gov.au
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[talk-au] Over 55’s Lifestyle Village = retirement_home ?

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi all,

is a Over 55’s Lifestyle Village (like this one
https://www.middlerockhomevillage.com.au) a amenity=retirement_home?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dretirement_home

I'm not clear if the Lifestyle Village is only a fancy marketing name or
not. I've seen such villages and some are past caravan parks that have
been re-purposed with the over 55's as clientel.

How would you tag this?


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Re: [talk-au] OT: DB has correct attribution

[Sebastian Spiess]

The DB (Deutsche Bahn) has lost much of it's glory.

Deterioration of tracks, AC break down in summer heat in most of the
newest ICE trains, delays, delays, price increases.

Nevertheless I likes using the DB. Austria is seeing a revival of
intercity night trains (sleeper wagons)

If anyone is interested in some more DB and data mining you can have a
look at this talk (with english translation and subtitles)
https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10652-bahnmining_-_punktlichkeit_ist_eine_zier

On 6/1/20 3:44 pm, Ben Kelley wrote:
> I think our top speed was about 235km/h.
>
>   - Ben.
>
>
> On Sun., 5 Jan. 2020, 22:15 Graeme Fitzpatrick,  > wrote:
>
> Very nice.
>
> What was it doing on the flat?
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] presenting #NorthernBeachesSolar pet project

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi Graeme, glad I feed your 'needs'.

I would add a closed way for every continuous row / line of panels. 15
rectangles for the roof top you found.
Each rectangle is updated to set generator:solar:modules
=*
 
to the number of modules the rectangle represents.

On 5/1/20 2:20 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Been following with interest - after all, don't we all need something
> /else/ to map ‽ :-) 
>
> Please have a look at 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=631189377#map=19/-33.81607/150.99852 ,
> which I spotted while fixing phone numbers.
>
> So would you draw individual boxes around each of those 15 sets of
> panels & tag each one as a separate node?
>  
> Thanks
>
> Graeme


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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Sebastian Spiess]

I took the liberty to add it to the wiki page. The building=fire_station
is references on EN and DE translation of the amenity page thus I guess
there should be no issue.

On 5/1/20 9:15 pm, Warin wrote:
> There are some 944 of them in the data base .. so they should be
> documented.
>
> I'd be pleased to add a few more, along with the suggested tags.
>
> On 05/01/20 21:02, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>> Okay with me though it would be good if that tag was documented
>> at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building
>>
>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 20:15, Sebastian S. > <mailto:mapp...@consebt.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> Similar to schools the building should be tagged
>>
>> building=fire_station
>>
>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=fire_station
>>
>>
>> On 5 January 2020 4:55:26 pm AEDT, Andrew Harvey
>> mailto:andrew.harv...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, this
>> is 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#One_feature.2C_one_OSM_element,
>> there should only be one amenity=fire_station for a single
>> fire station.
>>
>> Where possible I prefer to trace the site boundary as this
>> can be useful information and put all the tags on that, and
>> then just have a way inside it with building=yes an none of
>> the fire station tags.
>>
>> But I think it's also fine to just have a node, or to just
>> have the building without the site as interim solutions or
>> for fire stations where the extent is just the building which
>> don't have a yard.
>>
>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 15:27, David Wales
>> mailto:daviewa...@disroot.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Somewhat related to this.
>>
>> Camden West Rural Fire Service has both a traced
>> building, *and* a traced site border.
>> Both are currently tagged with amenity=fire_station.
>>
>> The building has the rest of the identifying tags.
>>
>> I feel that it makes sense to only have one feature
>> tagged with amenity=fire_station, and the rest of the
>> tags. Should this be the building, or the site border?
>>
>> See link below:
>> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id=724460466#map=20/-34.05818/150.67674
>>
>> Regards,
>> David Wales
>>
>> On 4/1/20 2:39 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 14:14, Sebastian Spiess
>>> mailto:mapp...@consebt.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Andrew,
>>> I've done one. Just clarifying regarding the branch.
>>>
>>> branch  =   Narrabeen Fire Station
>>> name   =  Fire and Rescue NSW Station 068 Narrabeen
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't see clearly from Mapillary what the singe looks
>>> like, but branch should be just "Narrabeen", without the
>>> "Fire Station" words. Then you could still have
>>> name=Narrabeen Fire Station.
>>>  
>>>
>>> Is this how you suggested? Before the branch tag was
>>> the name.
>>>
>>> I've also added
>>> building =    fire_station
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79179815
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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Re: [talk-au] RapID roads now available for Australia

[Sebastian Spiess]

HI,
it is now, however it seems they did not use the NSW LPI images but
their own...

Australia   2019-12-30  Facebook's Map With AI - Maxar Imagery



On 31/12/19 12:10 pm, Andrew Davidson wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:40 AM Phil Wyatt  > wrote:
>
> RapID roads now available for Australia
>
>  
>
> But not in the list of downloads:
> https://github.com/facebookmicrosites/Open-Mapping-At-Facebook/wiki/Available-Countries
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] presenting #NorthernBeachesSolar pet project

[Sebastian Spiess]

I had a look the Tasking Manager.
Do I understand it correct that I would need to set-up a (local) tasking
manager instance for myself?
The wiki does not list any Tasking Manager in AU. Does anyone have one
up an running or is there one that is good to use for this?


On 4/1/20 9:20 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> Nice work, would love to see more roof top solar panels mapped.
>
> The Tasking
> Manager https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tasking_Manager might suit
> this better than MapRoulette, since Tasking Manager breaks an area up
> into tiles and you go in, choose a tile, complete it, then upload. It
> helps track progress, avoid conflicts and ensures a whole area is done
> without gaps in coverage.
>
> MapRoulette works differently, it's based on identifying features
> already which need some work.
>
> > start_date=* - set to the date of the LPI NSW Imagery - or should
> this be rather source:date=*??
>
> start_date is when the feature started, so when the solar panel was
> installed, you can just do  if you only know the year or -MM
> if you only know the month, but if you don't know you can omit it.
> source:date is better for the imagery date.
>
> On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 08:50, Sebastian S.  <mailto:mapp...@consebt.de>> wrote:
>
> So far I have not worked out a good grid method.
> I go by suburb in my area and keep the file local until I've
> completed the suburb. Only then I upload.
> While offline I use a temporary area tagged as wood. I expand this
> box over the area I've worked through. This is just because I
> don't know any better solution. 
>
> If you want to see a map showing the modules you can use open
> infrastructure map, link is at the bottom of the wiki.
>
> I thought about making this a mapping challenge on
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapRoulette but so far I've
> not looked into it. I've got no experience with this but am happy
> to receive guidance.
>
>
> On 2 January 2020 7:11:07 am AEDT, Dion Moult  <mailto:d...@thinkmoult.com>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 11:29:13PM +1100, Sebastian Spiess wrote:
>
> I'd like to present my latest pet project:
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:ConsEbt/NorthernBeachesSolar
> I wanted to share this and collect some feedback or comments. 
>
>
> I love it! I might do a bit of solar mapping too! How easy is it to 
> set a grid
> to know which areas have been mapped?
>
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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Sebastian Spiess]

Andrew,
I've done one. Just clarifying regarding the branch.

branch  =   Narrabeen Fire Station
name   =  Fire and Rescue NSW Station 068 Narrabeen

Is this how you suggested? Before the branch tag was the name.

I've also added
building =    fire_station

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79179815

On 4/1/20 9:06 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I've updated the Australian Tagging Guidelines with NSW fire station
> operators 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Fire_Stations.
>
>
> I'm proposing:
>
> for NSW Rural Fire Service stations to use 
> operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
> operator:wikdata=Q7011777
>
> for Fire and Rescue NSW stations to use
> operator=Fire and Rescue NSW
> operator:wikidata=Q5451532
>
> Does that sound okay?
>
> I'm also suggesting to use the "branch=" tag to use the short name of
> the fire station branch, which is usually the suburb name and is
> printed on the fire trucks, since the regular name= tag could contain
> a longer signposted name.
>
> For other states, if this tagging is okay, please help fill in the
> operator and operator:wikidata tags on the wiki page for your states.
>
> I've created a MapRoulette challenge for NSW to fill in these tags
> either as implied from the name, local knowledge or from street lever
> imagery https://maproulette.org/challenge/11820
>
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Re: [talk-au] Fire Station Operators

[Sebastian Spiess]

Sounds good to me.

On 4/1/20 9:06 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I've updated the Australian Tagging Guidelines with NSW fire station
> operators 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Fire_Stations.
>
>
> I'm proposing:
>
> for NSW Rural Fire Service stations to use 
> operator=NSW Rural Fire Service
> operator:wikdata=Q7011777
>
> for Fire and Rescue NSW stations to use
> operator=Fire and Rescue NSW
> operator:wikidata=Q5451532
>
> Does that sound okay?
>
> I'm also suggesting to use the "branch=" tag to use the short name of
> the fire station branch, which is usually the suburb name and is
> printed on the fire trucks, since the regular name= tag could contain
> a longer signposted name.
>
> For other states, if this tagging is okay, please help fill in the
> operator and operator:wikidata tags on the wiki page for your states.
>
> I've created a MapRoulette challenge for NSW to fill in these tags
> either as implied from the name, local knowledge or from street lever
> imagery https://maproulette.org/challenge/11820
>
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[talk-au] presenting #NorthernBeachesSolar pet project

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hello All and Happy New Year,

I'd like to present my latest pet project:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:ConsEbt/NorthernBeachesSolar


Inspired by an UK based project
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_Kingdom/Rooftop_Solar_PV
I wanted to do something similar in front of my doorstep.

The wiki gives some details about tags I'm using as well as three
changesets that are part of this project.


I wanted to share this and collect some feedback or comments.


Cheers, Seb


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Re: [talk-au] parking and bike lane

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi Andrew,
thanks for all these hints. I probably should have read up on the tags a
bit better. A case of too late mapping.

I've followed your suggestions and added the tags up and downstream of
the roundabout with this changeset
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78947187

I do welcome comments. In particular regarding how to go about the cycle
way and the roundabout. And what about sidewalk? I'm inclined to map it
as a separate way.

Cheers,
Seb

On 28/12/19 6:37 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> Hi Sebastian,
>
> 1. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes is says "Use
> the lanes=* key to tag how many traffic lanes there are on a highway
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway>." and "Count excludes
> cycle lanes.". So in this case there are only 2 traffic lanes. So
> simply use:
>
> lanes=2
>
> 2. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway it says
> "https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway" Since both sides
> have a cyclelane you can just use a single tag:
>
> cycleway=lane
>
> Using both cycleway:left=lane + cycleway:right=lane can be interpreted
> as the same thing, and some people would use cycleway:both=lane which
> also means the same thing. My preference is to keep things simple by
> using cycleway=lane since having 3 different ways of tagging the same
> thing just makes it harder for beginners to contribute because they'll
> be left confused on the difference, whereas if we're consistent with
> the simplest form, it's best.
>
> 3. Once you've used lanes=2 then access:lanes, bicycle:lanes,
> cycleway:lanes are no longer needed here.
>
> 4. lcn=yes only if this is part of a signposted cycle route (ie. if
> there are way marking signs showing this is a route)
>
> 5. Parking lane tagging looks good, but again once you've used lanes=2
> then you don't need parking:lanes=lane|lane.
>
> 6. I'd also use cycleway:lane=doorzone to indicate this cyclelane is
> in the door zone and so mostly I'd just ride outside the cyclelane in
> the traffic lane anyway... The tag isn't well documented yet but has
> have some
> use https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cycleway%3Alane=doorzone
>
> 7. You could also say surface=asphalt, lit=yes, overtaking=no if you
> wanted to add more tags.
>
> On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 at 01:12, Sebastian Spiess  <mailto:mapp...@consebt.de>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering to add the following tags to Griffin Road (and others)
> bit since JOSM is not rendering as I expect it, I thought I ask if
> this
> combination makes even sense.
>
> Road example is here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/171171120 and
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/1R1u3k4BQ6dsIscMwSfDpg
>
> The road is essentially parking lane, bike lane, 2 lane road, bike
> lane,
> parking lane. Tag wise this leads me to:
>
> access:lanes=|no|||no|
> bicycle:lanes=|designated|||designated|
> cycleway:lanes=|lane|||lane|
> cycleway:left=lane
> cycleway:right=lane
> highway=secondary
> lanes=6
> lcn=yes
> maxspeed=50
> name=Griffin Road
> parking:condition:both=free
> parking:lane:both:parallel=on_street
> parking:lane:both=parallel
> parking:lanes=lane|lane
>
> what are your thoughts?
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] local traffic only

[Sebastian Spiess]

Thanks Andrew,
I have updated the street accordingly. See
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/174303541/history

On 11/11/19 7:24 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> In an effort to try to document the outcome of this discussion, I've
> updated 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Local_Traffic_Only
>  though
> if any one still feels this isn't the best way to tag this feature,
> please speak up.
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 at 10:26, Ian Sergeant  > wrote:
>
> What does "official" mean?  It's official, in that the signs are
> placed by the local council.  However they are not enforceable,
> because no law (regulation, etc) gives them a legal meaning.
>
> There is no definitive list of street signs that are advisory vs
> enforceable.  But the RMS has a partial list on their website, and
> the definitive is the Australian Road Rules (as in various state
> legislation).
>
> Councils use them to discourage local streets for through use. 
> They advise drivers that they aren't a main road - and they may
> have traffic calming, etc on them and be otherwise unsuited in
> design for through use.  They aren't used at all in many (most?)
> council areas.
>
> In some cases, they may also have a reduced speed-limit on the
> same sign.  That would be enforceable.
>
> It's pretty low value information to capture in OSM.  But the
> signs exist, so we can capture them - but a access restriction
> would be inappropriate.  I've said before I agree with Andrew's
> proposed tagging for discouraged access.
>
> Ian.
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 at 06:38, Sebastian S.  > wrote:
>
> So the sign is put up by the council. Is it not an official sign?
>
> Could someone elaborate on the legal side mentioned here. E.g.
> is there catalogue of street signs in the road rules and this
> one is not among them?
>
> Are people confusing lax enforcement of the sign with it
> having no legal meaning?
>
> On 9 November 2019 11:37:49 am AEDT, Andrew Harvey
> mailto:andrew.harv...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 02:24, Mateusz Konieczny
> mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Why it would be irrelevant?
>
>
> access tag family is for legal access (with some space
> for officially discouraged access),
> access=destination is for "transit is illegal", not
> "local residents dislike transit traffic".
>
> OSM is not a place to add a nonexisting ban on transit
> traffic
>
>
> Yeah realised this later, see my other post in this thread
> at 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-November/013188.html,
> which I suggested motor_vehicle:advisory=destination to
> tag a suggested or advised but maybe not legally
> enforceable destination only restriction.
>
> On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 01:55, Mateusz Konieczny
> mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Is it "local traffic only" as in "resident only" or
> "no transit"?
>
> Is permission required to enter this area?
>
> AFAIK there is no tagging scheme for distinguishing
> "only with permission of
> homeowner" and "available to all residents of closed
> community".
>
>
> It just means this road is indented to be used if you're
> traveling to somewhere along this road, but not if you're
> just driving through as a shortcut.
>
> It's still public land, not private property. 
>
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[talk-au] local traffic only

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hello List,

how do you map a 'local traffic only' sign as this one? 
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/FkY8gmlGX2NmhUARyveMQw


Following https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access states "...Note 
that "access only for residents" is private..."


Would this not break navigation in apps etc?

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Re: [talk-au] Map features for OSM & new street-level imagery in Australia

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi, this is great. Many thanks to all involved.

I would be keen to ask or propose the Northern beaches Council to do the
same.

Do you have any contact persons that I could refer the Council men to?

Note: I have no idea how to actually approach the council (the
appropriate person) however I'm not shy of trying. Maybe there are some
suggestions here?

Regards,

Sebastian


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Re: [talk-au] Street names from gis.mn.gov?

[Sebastian Spiess]

I suggest to have the author add a changeset comment to clarify.


On 5/11/19 9:57 am, Nemanja Bračko wrote:
> Yup, I can confirm that Harvey is right.
> It is left from one of US editors which were moved from US edits to AU
> like 2 months ago.
>
> Thanks,
> Nemanja
>
> Sent from my phone
>
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019, 23:51 Andrew Harvey  > wrote:
>
> I'd recommend leaving a changeset comment to ask, it's likely
> they've used the wrong comment by mistake as that's a US data portal.
>
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 09:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick
> mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Sorry about the cryptic title :-)
>
> Was looking at the map earlier & spotted a change made by one
> of the Microsoft mapping team that had the comment 
>
>
> "Adding missing roads from aerial imagery, and names
> from source=gisdata.mn.gov 
> #maproulette"
>
>
> What's gisdata.mn.gov ?
>
> This particular change was
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/74193595  if you're
> interested, but this was only one of several dozen made by
> Melis on that day.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Uluru naming consistency

[Sebastian Spiess]

I support this too.

While I recall that it was Ayers Rock some time in the past in my bubble
it is no longer actively used.

On 29/10/19 12:00 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 11:08, Michael Gratton  > wrote:
>
> On Tue, 29 Oct, 2019 at 10:43, Adam Horan  > wrote:
> > I prefer the first proposal from Joachim:
> > name = Uluṟu
> > name:en = Uluru
> > name:pjt = Uluṟu
> > alt_name = Ayers Rock
> > alt_name:en = Ayers Rock
> > official_name =  Uluru / Ayers Rock
> > official_name:en =  Uluru / Ayers Rock
> >
> > I suggest putting 'Ayers Rock' in alt_name instead of old_name. If
> > you think about it Uluru *is* the old name... 
>
>
> Okay fair point! 
>
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[talk-au] Environmental Justice Atlas

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hello all,

I just wanted to share this link of the Environmental Justice Atlas that
I have come across the other day.

https://ejatlas.org/

The Australia centric view: https://ejatlas.org/country/australia

A website that lists all sorts of Environmental issues of the past and
present using a variety of sources.

The tiles are done using Leaflet but according to attribution are from
ESRI and not OSM though.


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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Sebastian Spiess]

Am 2019-07-25 23:48, schrieb Andrew Harvey:

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 21:12, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search)
 wrote:


Thanks for the reply,

I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory
sometimes, that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here.
Also, I think that gov routes are there to indicate importance of
the road and flow of traffic.

I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this
before reverting suggested road classification. If there are any
local mapper for these areas It would be great if they could turn
into conversation to give an opinion?


I think we have enough comments here, and documentation on both the
highway=motorway and Australian Tagging Gudelines wiki page (that Seb
just pointed out) to say that
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/110348897/history and the rest of
that road should be reverted, as it's clearly not a highway=motorway.



A bit OT but I noticed that the previous version had bicycle=yes. This 
is also an an aspect that contradicts my understanding of a highway. 
Many major roads, even toll ways have bicycle signage and it seems to be 
accepted to use by bike. This is very different from e.g. Germany where 
this is forbidden on an Autobahn.


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Re: [talk-au] Copying address from business website?

[Sebastian Spiess]

I do consider the website of a business public. Why else would the 
business have the website?
So if said website provides information that makes sense in OSM, I add 
it.
Yes the brain is to be switched on, always, e.g. opening hours - I 
follow what the shop states if they differ from the site.


I do agree that aggregator sites or many of these listings that are just 
SPAM in my view shoudl not be considered an acceptable source - as they 
are not the primary source of the information but rather have crawled 
the web for it.


Seb


Am 2019-07-22 17:28, schrieb Simon Poole:

There was just a longish discussion on legal-talk on the topic:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2019-July/thread.html 
(note that AUS is one of the three countries with a strong sweat of the
brow doctrine).

From a legal POV completing information with data from the
establishments own website should in general be OK, from a QA
perspective brain needs to be turned on as, just as with any other data
source,  there is no guarantee that website contains current and 
correct

information.

Compilations of the same data (for example google and so one) should 
not

be used for sourcing information for OSM.

Simon

Am 22.07.2019 um 05:04 schrieb Kim Oldfield:

Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact details)
from a business's webpage?

For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 (what
changed is easier to see at
https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added
the street address as listed on their website.

If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
address if it is not obvious during a site survey?

Regards,
Kim

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Re: [talk-au] Copying address from business website?

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi, I find it odd that you state source:website but don't proved the 
website in the website tag. Why not?


PS: I see the website of the business as the virtual front and consider 
the information public as any sign etc on the actual shop. So Yes I do 
this also all the time. (Individual POIs, not mass import)


Am 2019-07-22 15:47, schrieb Kim Oldfield:

Graeme: It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
This particular change caused me to reconsider how appropriate it is
as it was all sourced from the website so I used source=website which,
when viewed superficially, appears to contradict guidelines for where
to source map data.

Andrew: It is nice to know that this is generally considered OK for
individual facts.

Adrian: As part of manually adding these facts I check that the
address I'm adding is for this physical location, ie at least the
street adjoins the business being tagged.

On 22/7/19 3:28 pm, Adrian Hobbs wrote:
Might be issues where contact address (e.g. head office) being copied 
is different to physical location on map.

Adrian Hobbs

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On 22 Jul. 2019, 15:21, at 15:21, Andrew Harvey 
 wrote:

This has come up a few times on the mailing lists, and the advise
usually
given is it's okay to source a few facts here and there like the
address or
contact number, but just don't start taking a whole database of 
venues

and
copy that database.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 13:06, Kim Oldfield 


wrote:

Is it acceptable to copy a street address (and other contact 
details)

from a business's webpage?

For example in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72452124 
(what

changed is easier to see at
https://osmlab.github.io/osm-deep-history/#/way/705884944 ) I added

the

street address as listed on their website.

If this isn't acceptable, what is an acceptable way of getting an
address if it is not obvious during a site survey?

Regards,
Kim

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Re: [talk-au] Removing "WikiProject" prefix

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi Daniel,
welcome to the virtual down under. I assume this is part of a larger 
wiki maintenance/clean up?


As you mention that links will be updated/redirected I don't see any 
issue with it.


Cheers, Seb

Am 2019-07-26 07:05, schrieb dcapillae:

Hi,

I am Daniel, from Spain. I would like to change the name of the wiki
pages related to the Australia mapping project to remove the
"Wikiproject" prefix following the pages name conventions [1].

The name of the pages related to the Australia mapping project would
be "Australia" (name of place) instead of "Wikiproject Australia", as
recommended by the wiki conventions. It is a change that I have
already made in United States [2], Canada [3], Spain [4], and all
Spanish-speaking countries [5] on the Wiki.

I could make the necessary changes, and also add the "Country"
template [6] to the Australia project page, although this change is
optional.

All pages with "WikiProject" prefix will be redirected automatically.
There will be no broken links in any case.  I'll make sure everything
works correctly, just like now.

Do you like the idea? I have posted this message on the wiki in case
you prefer to comment there [7].

Thank you for you attention! Greetings from Spain.

Regards,
Daniel

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki_organisation#Pages_naming_convention
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ES:Spain
[5] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_speaking_countries

[6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Country
[7]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:WikiProject_Australia#Removing_.22WikiProject.22_prefix


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Re: [talk-au] use of addr:unit

[Sebastian Spiess]

Thanks I did not see this one before.
Is there a real difference between units and flats? Flats appears very
British to me while I did consider units as covering Units, separated
Units one a block of land, apartments within an apartment building and
flats/units within one building/house.

On 16/5/19 11:08 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:flats is documented and
> in use for this.
>
> On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 22:18, Sebastian Spiess  <mailto:mapp...@consebt.de>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> how would you tag multiple units in one building or apartment block?
>
> e.g. if we have an apartment block with units 1, 2, 3, 4...
>
> addr:unit=1;2;3;4
>
> or
>
> addr:unit=1-4
>
> or
>
> addr:unit=Unit 1-4
>
>
> what to do if the numbering is not consecutive, e.g. only units 1,
> 3, 6,
> 7, 8
>
>
> The wiki seems to be quite light on detail about this so what are your
> thoughts?
>
>
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[talk-au] use of addr:unit

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi all,

how would you tag multiple units in one building or apartment block?

e.g. if we have an apartment block with units 1, 2, 3, 4...

addr:unit=1;2;3;4

or

addr:unit=1-4

or

addr:unit=Unit 1-4


what to do if the numbering is not consecutive, e.g. only units 1, 3, 6,
7, 8


The wiki seems to be quite light on detail about this so what are your
thoughts?


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Re: [talk-au] Importing Hobsons Bay City Council tree data into OSM

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi David, thanks for your explanation.

I think it is good practice to use a separate import account, so good on
you!

On 15/4/19 11:17 pm, David Sisourath wrote:
>
> Hi Sebastian,
>
>  
>
> Thanks for the feedback. The trees seen in the adjacent Wyndham City
> Council have actually been manually mapped by another contributor.
>
>  
>
> I will change the changeset comments to be ‘Hobsons Bay Tree Import
> - 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Hobsons_Bay_City_Council’.
>
>  
>
> I have also decided to create a dedicated OSM account for the import.
> This will be called HobsonsBayCityCouncil_Import with the user
> description linking to the import page.
>
>  
>
> Let me know if anything on the import page is unclear or if anything
> needs changing. I will be undertaking another test import, this time
> in an area with existing trees.
>
>  
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>  
>
> 
> *From:* Sebastian Spiess 
> *Sent:* Monday, April 15, 2019 10:31:36 PM
> *To:* David Sisourath; Andrew Harvey
> *Cc:* talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Importing Hobsons Bay City Council tree data
> into OSM
>  
>
> Hi David,
>
> I'd like to say that the test import looks very impressive on the map.
> Thank you for your effort on this.
>
> Are there guidelines how to mark the import in the changeset? Not
> having read up on it but I would think the changeset should reference
> the wiki page for the import?
>
> For those who are interested in the import, see the wiki here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Hobsons_Bay_City_Council
>
> Cheers, Seb
>
>
> On 14/4/19 10:45 pm, David Sisourath wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Andrew, I have looked at all of the tags in the raw data and
>> have created a Python file to process this.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have considered the ‘Unknown’, ‘Not Applicable’ and also removed
>> the trees where they are ‘stumps’ or ‘vacant’.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The data is linked here:
>>
>> https://data.gov.au/dataset/ds-dga-80051ffe-04d5-4602-b15b-60e0d0e3d153/
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have actually proceeded with a test import on a small area in
>> Seabrook. A reason why I think a source tag would be useful is the
>> identification of imported trees in subsequent updates from Council
>> being imported.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I note that this test import is easily reversible by me if plans do
>> not eventuate.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The test import changeset is here:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/69182499#map=16/-37.8860/144.7627
>>
>>  
>>
>> Also, there is a non-existent boundary through Seabrook Primary
>> School that renders on Mapnik. I noticed this during the test import
>> and am unsure of the issue here.
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>  
>>
>> David
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> 
>> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 14, 2019 9:56:38 PM
>> *To:* David Sisourath
>> *Cc:* talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Importing Hobsons Bay City Council tree data
>> into OSM
>>  
>> Great working on sourcing those waivers!
>>
>> Do you either have a sample .osm file or could you post an example of
>> what tags/values will be imported? Can you say anything further about
>> how you will transform the data? ie. removing "Unknown" values etc.
>>
>> Regarding the source tag, I think it must be on the changeset, but
>> can optionally be on each object as well. It was once pointed out to
>> me that the source on the object may lead to editors thinking they
>> can't change/touch the object, and it can also be misleading when
>> changes subsequently happen. Mind you, I still add source,
>> source:geometry, source:name etc. tags where I feel it's appropriate
>> manually, I just don't think it's essential to have them on each object.
>>
>> Feel free to post a link to this
>> thread 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-April/012577.html as
>> a changeset tag or comment to help link the import back to this
>> discussion.
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 15:35, David Sisourath
>> mailto:david.sisour...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>  
>>
>> I intend to import tree data in the Hob

[talk-au] POI - address details

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi list,

this question originates from the discussion about the NSW address
import, see here:
https://gitlab.com/dionmoult/osm-nsw-address-import/issues/7

My view is that addresses are more than just the Street name and house
number (plus Unit number).

When I put POIs on the map I also add City, postcode and state - the
full address.

I understand that this information might be redundant as the city or
suburb boundary is 'passing' it down, however to me the address is
incomplete for the POI.

When using data consumers they do not necessary pass down the city to
the POI and it will be missing in their listing, e.g. when searching.

What are the views here?


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Re: [talk-au] Importing Hobsons Bay City Council tree data into OSM

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi David,

I'd like to say that the test import looks very impressive on the map.
Thank you for your effort on this.

Are there guidelines how to mark the import in the changeset? Not having
read up on it but I would think the changeset should reference the wiki
page for the import?

For those who are interested in the import, see the wiki here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Hobsons_Bay_City_Council

Cheers, Seb


On 14/4/19 10:45 pm, David Sisourath wrote:
>
> Thanks Andrew, I have looked at all of the tags in the raw data and
> have created a Python file to process this.
>
>  
>
> I have considered the ‘Unknown’, ‘Not Applicable’ and also removed the
> trees where they are ‘stumps’ or ‘vacant’.
>
>  
>
> The data is linked here:
>
> https://data.gov.au/dataset/ds-dga-80051ffe-04d5-4602-b15b-60e0d0e3d153/
>
>  
>
> I have actually proceeded with a test import on a small area in
> Seabrook. A reason why I think a source tag would be useful is the
> identification of imported trees in subsequent updates from Council
> being imported.
>
>  
>
> I note that this test import is easily reversible by me if plans do
> not eventuate.
>
>  
>
> The test import changeset is here:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/69182499#map=16/-37.8860/144.7627
>
>  
>
> Also, there is a non-existent boundary through Seabrook Primary School
> that renders on Mapnik. I noticed this during the test import and am
> unsure of the issue here.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> David
>
>  
>
>  
>
> 
> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 14, 2019 9:56:38 PM
> *To:* David Sisourath
> *Cc:* talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Importing Hobsons Bay City Council tree data
> into OSM
>  
> Great working on sourcing those waivers!
>
> Do you either have a sample .osm file or could you post an example of
> what tags/values will be imported? Can you say anything further about
> how you will transform the data? ie. removing "Unknown" values etc.
>
> Regarding the source tag, I think it must be on the changeset, but can
> optionally be on each object as well. It was once pointed out to me
> that the source on the object may lead to editors thinking they can't
> change/touch the object, and it can also be misleading when changes
> subsequently happen. Mind you, I still add source, source:geometry,
> source:name etc. tags where I feel it's appropriate manually, I just
> don't think it's essential to have them on each object.
>
> Feel free to post a link to this
> thread 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-April/012577.html as
> a changeset tag or comment to help link the import back to this
> discussion.
>
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 15:35, David Sisourath
> mailto:david.sisour...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>  
>
> I intend to import tree data in the Hobsons Bay LGA into OSM.
>
>  
>
> The data has been verified by myself with aerial imagery and
> DELWP/VicMap boundaries.
>
>  
>
> I will be importing small squares of data at a time, including the
> tree circumference, species (if known) or genus (if species
> unknown). Tree circumference in the data are grouped by ranges of
> 150mm. I have taken the maximum of these ranges to be the
> circumference in my code.
>
>  
>
> A source tag will be attached to each tree node imported,
> source=data.gov.au:Hobsons Bay City Council, and also on the
> relevant changesets.
>
>  
>
> A waiver has been signed by Hobsons Bay and is available on both
> the Australian Data Catalogue page and the Contributors
> 
> 
> page.
>
>  
>
> Any questions or feedback regarding the import would be highly
> appreciated, including whether the approach to the circumference
> tag, and source tag is acceptable.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> David
>
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Re: [talk-au] OSGeo Oceania as a not-for-profit entity? Your feedback, please

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi all,
I do welcome the initiative to put OSM and OSGEO interested people onto
a more solid foundation. Personally I hope this can be a starting point
for more face-2-face interactions and engagement.

I did read through your proposal and I see no issues with Option2 as
suggested as favourable.
For all options there is the need for several people to fill positions
with varying degrees of liability. Do you have an understanding how big
the pool of active volunteers is and how many would be required for
Option 2?

Cheers,
Sebastian


On 18/3/19 8:01 pm, John Bryant wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> As promised, following on the heels of the successful FOSS4G SotM
> Oceania conference  in November 2018, we
> have embarked on a journey to lay down a strong foundation for the
> growth of this community. In addition to planning a new instance of
> the conference in Wellington, New Zealand, for November 2019, we are
> also doing significant ground work on establishing a not-for-profit
> that can manage funds, enter into agreements, and act as a local
> chapter of OSGeo and OSMF.
>
> We have developed a recommendation for an initial path forward, and
> we'd like you, the community, to provide your feedback. If you have
> experience or knowledge here, and can provide insight, or wish to
> contribute your thoughts, please chime in. Your comments are most
> welcome, and can be provided by responding to this email, or by
> commenting in the Google Doc.
>
> The draft recommendation is attached as a PDF, and a live Google Doc
> version is linked here
> .
> We will take input until the end of next week (29 March). At that
> point, we'll make adjustments where warranted, and hopefully be in a
> position to raise a motion to the OSGeo Oceania board to accept the
> recommendation, and begin the process.
>
> If this is all new to you, and you're wondering what the heck OSGeo
> Oceania even is, please check out this basic wiki page
>  that will give you a bit of
> background. We'll be fleshing this out in the coming months, but I
> hope it gives you enough of an idea. We will certainly be aiming to
> increase our outreach, and get people involved from across the region.
>
> Any questions, please ask!
>
> Cheers
> John Bryant
> on behalf of OSGeo Oceania
>
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Re: [talk-au] Large contribution to update OSM rural / offroad tracks in Australia

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi James,
first welcome to OSM and great that you reach out on the list.

There are many ways you could 'get the data into' OSM, however if you
rely on the help of others I doubt that they are willing to contribute
under your account.

I suggest you read and watch the FOSDEM talk
(https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/geo_gpxtraces/) from Zverik from
Juno. Juno has also large amounts of GPS tracks that they use to
generate a heat map. This helps them to de-anonymize the data. This heat
map can then be added as a tiled layer in JOSM.

The tiled layer can then be used by others to edit in OSM.
Link: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Zverik/diary/47986

If you want to speed up or generate interest in the task of drawing
tracks from your records you can also look into creating a task on
https://maproulette.org/

So one idea could be A) clean up gps tracks, B) create a heat map, C)
publish as tile server D) task on maproulet to trace/map the tracks.

Contributors that help you trace your tracks could use the Source tag to
indicate your company as provider of the data.

You would need to formally publish the information with a suitable
licence though.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,
Sebastian

On 3/4/19 3:59 pm, James Nuccio wrote:
> Hi OSM community!
>
> I'm relatively new to using and contributing to OSM but must say I'm
> really getting into it.  I am currently building a navigation app
> targeted towards the 4wding market which makes use of OSM.  Part of
> our offering is to geo-track our users as they navigate through the
> bush to better understand the 4wd tracks themselves.
>
> A byproduct of this process is that we have hundred of traces to be
> able to validate the geometry of current tracks, as well as add new
> tracks to the database.  All of these traces are an aggregation of
> user data, not traces of individual users.
>
> I am keen to get this info back into OSM but I'm looking for help as I
> don't have capacity to do so myself.  However I'd still like the
> contributions to be entered under my OSM userid.
>
> Is this something anyone can help with?  I'm based in Melbourne if
> that makes a difference.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> -- 
> *James Nuccio*
> Founder and CEO
> Newtracs
>
>
> Web: www.newtracs.com.au 
> Instagram: @newtracs4x4 
> Facebook: @newtracs 
> Twitter: @newtracs 
>
>
>
> -- 
> *James Nuccio*
> Founder and CEO
> Newtracs
>
> Web: www.newtracs.com.au 
> Instagram: @newtracs4x4 
> Facebook: @newtracs 
> Twitter: @newtracs 
>
>
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[talk-au] Berry Train Station

[Sebastian Spiess]

This is follow on from the previous discussion about the Sydney train
station.

The Berry station (public_transport=station) is currently outlined by
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/678867487

Thanks to the meet up last weekend I was introduced to QGIS and the NSW
data source.

If I import the areas of each plot of land the train station is quite a
big area. See the screenshot here: https://prnt.sc/n6cg12

My question is now should the complete area be tagged landuse=railway
AND railway=station which is how I understand the wiki when using an
area,
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation#A_Simple_Railway_Station

What are your thoughts?


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Re: [talk-au] Bushwalking site using OSM

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi Andrew,
looking nice. I'll try to follow your suggestion for a pull request to
add the walk around Narrabeen Lake.

Cheers,
Seb

On 27/3/19 11:17 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I just launched a new map based on OSM
> data https://www.beyondtracks.com/map/
>
> It aims to show much more detail at low zoom levels compared to most
> OSM map styles out there.
>
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 at 18:03, Andrew Harvey  > wrote:
>
> I just wanted to share a project I've been working on recently, which
> provides bush walking information, mainly in NSW.
>
> http://beyondtracks.com/
>
> Most of the route geometries have come from OpenStreetMap, the
> basemaps are using OpenStreetMap, I've pulled in points of interest
> along the walk from OpenStreetMap and the search uses names of
> features near the walk from OpenStreetMap.
>
>
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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Re: [talk-au] Platform names

[Sebastian Spiess]

Hi,
I don't want to re-start this thread but just wanted to share this post 
I came across from OSMAND; the app I use for routing and GPS recording. 
It it about public transport and tagging 'for the renderer' OSMAND.


https://osmand.net/blog/guideline-pt

Regards,
Sebastian

Am 2019-03-21 11:26, schrieb Thomas Manson:

Looking at Central Station, Sydney, the platform names are things
like 'Platform 4+5'. (https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6015392)

 From my reading of
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Apublic_transport%3Dplatform,
this should be
 the name of the station , so in this case that would be either
Central or Central Station, with the platform numbers as the ref tag
(which is already populated).

 1) First of all, is my understanding correct? It should be the
station name.
 2) Secondly, should the name be Central or Central Station (assuming
1 is correct)?

 Regards,
 Thomas
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Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Sebastian Spiess]

Am 2019-03-26 11:54, schrieb Andrew Harvey:

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 11:43, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


If https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ is to be the
railway=station then it needs to be expanded to include the are of
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116


I've expanded the landuse=railway area to include the main buildings.
I've also moved the railway=station to the whole landuse area, and
created a new public_transport way which is a bit smaller for Central,
per https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68528202.

I understand this is a big change, so if there's any issues with doing
this let's work them out.

I haven't migrated the relation members which used the old
railway=station build across yet.


Thanks for your work on this.

Question: any reason the https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023 was 
not tagged with train=yes as per the linked wiki page?


Also, wheelchair=yes might be too broad and not specific enough to be 
actually helpful.


I would think that the alt_name=Sydney Terminal should only be on actual 
platform or buildings. Boundaries such like way/34891023 (above) are 
rather theoretical. I see it as a likely scenario  that the alt_name 
might be used by data consumers to perform routing.


It looks like some of the footpaths on the platforms need more work as 
iD is complaining about them crossing 'Station'.


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Re: [talk-au] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Australia

[Sebastian Spiess]

I'd like to hear more about wikidata and how it is used. Maybe during a 
meet up...


Am 2019-03-18 12:40, schrieb Sam Wilson:

Sounds good, especially as we're not the guineapig location. :)

I've given up adding wikipedia tags of any style, and now just add 
wikidata.


On 3/18/19 3:52 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Old style wikipedia link is one where language is stored in key, not 
in

value.

For example "wikipedia:en=Australia" is an old style link, while
"wikipedia=en:Australia" is a form that is currently standard.

Many old-style Wikipedia links remain and updating them to new style
manually is boring, tedious and some mistakes may appear during this.

Some OSM elements have old-style Wikipedia link without new tag what
means that this data is harder to process for editors and data
consumers.

Also, remaining old-style Wikipedia tags confuse mappers, especially
less experienced.

Therefore I propose to run an automatic edit that will replace
old-style Wikipedia links with current style of Wikipedia links.

Please comment no matter what you think about this idea! I will not
make the edit without a clear support so please comment if you think
that it is a good idea and if you think that it should not be done.

Number of affected objects should be relatively small -
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H5x reports just 200 elements.

Plan is as follows:

I will take full responsibility for all edits and if anything goes
wrong I will fix it.

Editing is limited to objects with old-style Wikipedia tags is not
conflicting with existing wikipedia=* or wikidata=* tag or other
old-style wikipedia tags.

Links detected as invalid (leading to disambigs, articles about 
humans,

animals, plants, events etc) are also skipped.

Each changeset contains a single element or group of close elements to
avoid edits spanning across large areas (it is impossible in cases
where edited object itself spans very large area).

After every changeset bot sleeps for one minute.

This is proposed as reoccurring edit and may be made as soon as new
old-style wikipedia links appear.

documentation page on OSM Wiki is at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_old-style_Wikipedia_links_in_Australia

I have experience with automatic edits. exactly the same task was run
in Poland to remove more than 6000 old-style Wikipedia links what was
completed without any issues.

I recently processed also old-style Wikipedia tags across USA.


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Re: [talk-au] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Australia

[Sebastian Spiess]

Given this was done in other areas successfully I see no issues and 
support it.


Am 2019-03-18 06:52, schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:

Old style wikipedia link is one where language is stored in key, not
in
value.

For example "wikipedia:en=Australia" is an old style link, while
"wikipedia=en:Australia" is a form that is currently standard.

Many old-style Wikipedia links remain and updating them to new style
manually is boring, tedious and some mistakes may appear during this.

Some OSM elements have old-style Wikipedia link without new tag what
means that this data is harder to process for editors and data
consumers.

Also, remaining old-style Wikipedia tags confuse mappers, especially
less experienced.

Therefore I propose to run an automatic edit that will replace
old-style Wikipedia links with current style of Wikipedia links.

Please comment no matter what you think about this idea! I will not
make the edit without a clear support so please comment if you think
that it is a good idea and if you think that it should not be done.

Number of affected objects should be relatively small -
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H5x reports just 200 elements.

Plan is as follows:

I will take full responsibility for all edits and if anything goes
wrong I will fix it.

Editing is limited to objects with old-style Wikipedia tags is not
conflicting with existing wikipedia=* or wikidata=* tag or other
old-style wikipedia tags.

Links detected as invalid (leading to disambigs, articles about
humans,
animals, plants, events etc) are also skipped.

Each changeset contains a single element or group of close elements to
avoid edits spanning across large areas (it is impossible in cases
where edited object itself spans very large area).

After every changeset bot sleeps for one minute.

This is proposed as reoccurring edit and may be made as soon as new
old-style wikipedia links appear.

documentation page on OSM Wiki is at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_old-style_Wikipedia_links_in_Australia

I have experience with automatic edits. exactly the same task was run
in Poland to remove more than 6000 old-style Wikipedia links what was
completed without any issues.

I recently processed also old-style Wikipedia tags across USA.
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