Re: [Talk-us] Tagging historic US routes

[Greg Morgan]

Only one person cared about US 80 in osm.  I have deleted portions of the
route because parts of it are artificial ways to make the route render.
These artificial ways interfered with other mapping.  You can do what you
want with the route including deleting.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 6:47 PM Tod Fitch  wrote:

> This weekend I drove part of AZ-79 and noticed that Arizona has now put up
> some “Historic US 80” signage. On the sections of highway I drove, every
> occurrence of a AZ-79 route marker now also has a historic US-80 route
> marker. (Back in the day that highway was dual signed as US-80 and US-89
> but I guess nobody cares about having historic US-89 markers at present.)
>
> I was in a rental car and eventually figured out how to get Apple CarPlay
> setup so I could use the OSM based Maps.me app to show the roads I was on.
> In doing so I saw that Maps.me was showing the road with dual highway
> shields: A AZ shield with 79 and a US shield with 80. Since US-80 was
> decommissioned a long time ago (at least in Arizona and California) this
> seems wrong so I thought I’d look at the tagging.
>
> The tagging is on a route relation [1], at least I don’t see tagging on
> the individual way segments that would render as “US 80”.
>
> How should this be tagged?
>
> Casting about for examples of what to do, it seems that the Lincoln
> Highway [2] relation is quite different. And US 66 in California has no
> historic route relation at all, just the current county road route [3].
>
> There is a German page on the wiki about “route=historic” [4]. My reading
> of a machine translation of it implies that instead of “route=road” the
> historic US 80 relation should have “route=historic” and “historic=road”.
>
> Suggestions?
>
>
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/9230611
> [2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3958115
> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/205719338
> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dhistoric
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Re: [Talk-us] When is your doctor a clinic?

[Greg Morgan]

Brian,

That's my US American understanding of a clinic.  A clinic is not a
hospital and not a "doctors office".  But If I cannot get into my doctor or
if an individual does not need to go to the emergency room of a hospital,
then a clinic is a place to go.  For example, Honor Health is part of a
hospital system.  They are adding these "clinic" type places all over the
place as in here
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=33.6404930901=-112.0118460302=17=FJ_1oHqz8x2c1-PziWhxSQ=photo=0.4913798647410984=0.548466145091522=0
In this case, they bought out another clinic and replaced it with their
Honor Health brand.

You will need to zoom in on this image
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=33.67662935172414=-111.97772731602434=17=sEr2RqD5xZYGSZGEej8oJw=photo=0.8085766039159952=0.517578833862374=2.486737400530504
There
is also surgery center's.  Still not a hospital but invasive procedures are
performed at these locations.  A surgery center is cheaper than a hospital
per insurance dictates.  In this case you could go while with POIs.  Some
of these surgery centers are next to a string of retail POIs or may be in
the same wing of a building with retail space.

Don't know.  Some day I will sit down and map those.  I am just not
interested at the moment.

Regards,
Greg




On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 6:33 AM Brian Stromberg 
wrote:

> When I hear “clinic” in reference to a healthcare facility, I think of
> “urgent care” clinics, and I think there are about six urgent care clinics
> within a 20 minute drive of my local hospital. These are usually staffed
> with nurses and Physicians Assistants rather than MDs. It’s pretty common
> in the US for people to use these rather than the local emergency room, or
> even in lieu of a primary care doctor. Having them on OSM seems important
> if people need immediate care that doesn’t rise to the level of a hospital
> visit. For example, I took my mother to one near me when she had a fall (at
> her request, I might have preferred an actual hospital, but it wasn’t a
> great time to argue...). They often serve you faster and there is less
> administrative processing involved.
>
> Just wanted to share an American perspective.
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 7:56 AM Philip Barnes 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2020-01-24 at 00:51 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On 1/23/20 22:42, Paul Johnson wrote:
>> > > There may be a disconnect with what the US (or that spammer)
>> > > means.
>> > > Could I get a clarification on the difference between "doctors" and
>> > > "clinic" as you understand it?
>> >
>> > Personally (and in my country - Germany) there's precious little I
>> > would
>> > tag as a clinic; in everyday language we use the (german version of)
>> > the
>> > word clinic more or less synonymous with "hospital", with the
>> > possible
>> > exception that we'd also apply clinic to something that deals
>> > exclusively with non-illness-related things like e.g. a beauty clinic
>> > or
>> > a drug rehab clinic. In my language, a clinic would always be
>> > something
>> > where you can (and usually do) have a bed and stay for longer until
>> > the
>> > treatment is over. A building with a couple of different medical
>> > practitioners might be a "Gemeinschaftspraxis" ("shared practice") or
>> > perhaps an "Ärztehaus" (doctors' house) but not a "Klinik". Then
>> > again
>> > these would hardly ever be open 24/7...
>> >
>> > I'm not trying to apply my understanding of medical establishments to
>> > the US - just asking what the general understanding is on your side
>> > of
>> > the pond. Does Jmapb's distinction sound more or less ok for others
>> > too?
>> > He wrote:
>> >
>> Even in the UK, where OSM originated, clinics are quite rare.
>>
>> A clinic is where outpatients go, usually referred by their doctor to
>> see a specialist.
>>
>> The on the ground reality is that most clinics take place within
>> hospitals.
>>
>> Standalone clinics do exist, there is one in my town, but will tend not
>> to exist in larger towns or cities which have hospitals.
>>
>> HTH
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Alt_names on counties

[Greg Morgan]

Please don't remove the alt_name tags.  They are useful and not that much
of a distraction or an error  For example, a new freeway was just renamed
for a congress person that helped with many AZ transportation projects.  I
added the alt_name tag so that the South Mountain Freeway can still be
found in a search.  The new name is months old while the old alt_name has
been used for decade.  Not everyone calls Pima County by its full name.
That's why I think that the mapper added the alt_name so that
searches would be successful.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78850121

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 6:26 PM Tod Fitch  wrote:

> I’ve noticed that a number of counties in California and Arizona have what
> seems to be unneeded alt_name tags in their boundary relations. For example
> Pima County, Arizona has name=“Pima County” and alt_name=“Pima”. Same for
> Pinal County in Arizona and Riverside, Orange, Kern and Ventura counties in
> California. But this does not seem universal as the few counties I looked
> at in Washington state have only a name=* tag (e.g. name=“Columbia County”).
>
> I don’t see a wiki page for the standard for this in the United States. Is
> there one I’ve missed?
>
> Assuming there is not standard for this, should there be? And what should
> it be? (My preference is to remove an alt_name that is simply the name
> without “County”.)
>
> For what it is worth, it looks like the alt_names for counties in Arizona
> and California were added in 2014 by the user “revent” who is still
> actively mapping borders around the world.
>
> Thanks!
> Tod
>
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER-completeness visualizer?

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 2:03 PM stevea  wrote:

> As the ITOworld TIGER-completeness visualizer at
>
>
> https://product.itoworld.com/map/162?lon=-121.88=37.04=12=true_sidebar=map_key
>
> is no longer supported, does anybody know of a similar "product" that we
> can use to visualize how well we have reviewed TIGER roads (and rail?) in a
> given area?
>
> I REALLY miss that visualizer!  It showed whether highway=* ways were
> "touched in the last three years," whether the tiger:reviewed=no tag was
> removed and so on.  It was very well done and quite informative.
>
> I suppose a dedicated renderer could be built, that's pretty ambitious,
> though it is a worthy project, imo.
>

History:
* First there was Andy's green/red Tiger fixup map.  That was a great
simple map. The map would go from red to green when you killed the reviewed
tag.
* Mapquest picked up this map for a bit but it died when the group was
decommissioned.
* Itoworld was a nice version that added many more colors and the date last
touched.  The map was damaged when certain tags were no longer saved with
each edit.  These were removed in the background.  I started removing all
the Tiger tags because most of the map started turning black.  You could
tell what was edited or not.  The map almost reverted to Andy's map.
*There was a Battle Grid map. The original was lost but there is a
replacement that you have to run by yourself as far as I can tell.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_Battlegrid
https://github.com/iandees/tiger-battlegrid

My problem with Battle Grid map was that the the colors were too light when
you revised Tiger data.  I liked the idea because it reminded me of the Who
Did It Map. Something simple like a grid but use two colors like the
original fixup map but with no fading.  All each tile at zoom 16 needs to
do is change color and tell you how many more ways need to be touched.
Most of the tiles would be red until you touched all the roads.  Then the
tile would go green.  Again my approach is to removed all the Tiger tags
because the street names have been expanded.  I don't do this on major
connecting highways because I am not sure that all the routes have been
defined yet.  Tiger will have some of that route data in the list of tags.


> Bonus points for your best guess at when OSM will eventually complete a
> full TIGER data review.  I'll start:  at the rate we're going now, 2045?
>

April 2050  for nodes
June 2028 for ways
based on Ben Discoe's burn rate calculations.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/diary/44192
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HiC1-ixx30tbwgI27RJt1SvvK80BBRkLOg98Qcb0SD0/edit#gid=1034182050


Ben's spreadsheet mentions all these mappers except for balrog-kun for the
western states name expansion bot.
woodpeck_fixbot
TIGERcnl
jumbanho
jremillard-massgis
bot-mode
DaveHansenTiger
balrog-kun

I often use this list of mappers as a way of checking Tiger progress.  Note
that woodpeck_fixbot removed Tiger tags on nodes.  Hence, you have an idea
if the street has been touched or not for most of the cases.

Finally, I am not sure that OSMOSE would be a way to track Tiger data.  I
like the positive idea for moving forward.  I suppose that a pin would
render on every Tiger way might work.  The cycle times on some areas a
really slow in OSMOSE.  You'd have to close all the pins after each edit to
see how you are doing.  That effort adds to the pain.  I think the
challenge for the U.S. project is that most of these maps have been
maintained outside the U.S.  If implemented, I am not sure how long OSMOSE
would provide the service.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] New United States Bicycle Routes!

[Greg Morgan]

I will be happy to review your implementation of the route. A second pass
is always good for these turn by turn routes. It will have to wait until
later in the day. I have an internet outage right now.

I found Kentucky surprising when I have gone to visit. I am used to the
open road of the western states. Barrow pits on either side of the road are
used to build the road bed. In Kentucky it is very common to have a
gigantic tree at the edge of the road...well the minor roads. As I recall
all the roads leading into Lexington form spokes to a hub. These roads were
the horse trails to the tobacco markets. The roads in Kentucky have a very
different feel.

I will check both routes to the latest version of tiger data. I am not sure
that will help. As far as I know, the city, county, and states feed their
data to the census. If the data isn't that good to begin with or there has
been rapid changes, then you are going to run into the issues that you
describe. I have had to search for key roads in a number of states to
complete various USBRs. Kentucky also feels different because the counties
are the driving governments as I recall. If counties do not have thousands
and thousands of dollars for ESRI software to maintain the data, then you
will have these issues.

I also found some areas of poverty remarkable. The anti-importers want to
write studies that the Tiger import killed the community when in fact the
real issue is that we do not have the same density of mappers as some
locations in Europe. In the case of Kentucky parts of it are so rural that
a person is lucky to have phone service. Adding information to OSM is a
leisure class activity of time and resources.  I remember fields and fields
of tabacco crops years ago. The same areas have no cash crops.

I am not alarmed at the condition of Tiger data in Kentucky especially when
you consider parts of the state.


On Fri, Oct 26, 2018, 3:31 PM OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> I have completed a first draft of USBR 21 in Kentucky.  This was actually
> quite difficult as the TIGER name tags frequently do not match what highway
> names on the application from Kentucky's DOT says.  I did not change these,
> I'll leave that for "locals," but there is a great deal of work to do to
> change highway names in OSM in Kentucky, as it appears that counties,
> cities and KDOT change names (and segment breaks that make them up) quite a
> lot in the last 11 years since TIGER data were entered.
>
> As our wiki says and as is good practice in OSM, Greg's 23 and my 21 data
> entry deserve a "double-check review" by another OSM volunteer, and while
> these are "green" in our wiki, they are a "light green" until this is
> completed.  Greg, if you email me off list and agree to double-check 21,
> I'll do the same to 23.  Others are welcome, of course; email one or both
> of us if you are interested in helping.
>
> SteveA
> California
>
> > On Oct 26, 2018, at 10:51 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
> stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wow, Greg, you are quick.  Thank you!
> >
> > Additionally, (a major reason I'm including Kerry in this missive), I
> removed from OSM segments of Kentucky's USBR 23 which overlapped with ACA's
> Transamerica Trail (TA) "Mammoth Cave Loop."  (Now largely superseded by 76
> and 23).  These were between Highland Springs ("mid-state") and further
> north to Tanner, where 23 now connects to 76 at a T-intersection.  There
> are many reasons why OSM has been deprecating ACA routes in OSM:  these are
> proprietary and likely don't belong in OSM first place, and we document in
> our wiki that "over time, these tend to be replaced by USBRs" (among other
> reasons, like that they can get old and drift from updates that ACA can
> make or already has made).  Indeed, once again (as in the case of the
> northern segment of 76 in Kentucky replacing Mammoth Caves Loop earlier
> when 76 was approved in Kentucky), this segment of 23 100% overlaps with
> this ACA route, so yet another significant ACA route segment now deleted
> from OSM (as it is USBR now).
> >
> > Thanks again for your work to enter this, and keep up the great entry
> I'm guessing you are doing with USBR 21.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >> On Oct 26, 2018, at 6:18 AM, Greg Morgan 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Kentucky USBR 23  is done.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8843677#map=10/37.4960/-85.4712
> >
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] New United States Bicycle Routes!

[Greg Morgan]

Kentucky USBR 23  is done.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8843677#map=10/37.4960/-85.4712

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:30 PM OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> AASHTO has completed it's "Autumn 2018 round" of national route numbering
> approvals (almost) and there are new USBRs for OSM to map.
>
> One is already completed (thank you, user:micahcochran!):  USBR 15 was
> extended from Georgia into Florida to connect to Florida's existing USBR 90.
>
> In Kentucky, route data for USBR 21 (Georgia also has 21) and USBR 23
> (connecting to Tennessee's 23) are also available.  While our WikiProject
> (see https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_U.S._Bicycle_Route_System )
> has route data for both of these — PDF maps and turn-by-turn spreadsheets —
> the route is not quite yet approved.  I have been told by a knowledgable
> source that "the AASHTO bureaucrat in charge of preparing the vote didn't
> put the (Kentucky) applications in front of the committee.  As a result,
> the applications were sent to the committee for an email vote, which is not
> yet concluded."  That's OK.
>
> So, as is our usual (established for at least the last five years)
> process, we can take the sometimes substantial time and effort it takes to
> enter these while we wait for this "email vote approval" to complete, while
> the route is tagged state=proposed in the meantime.  Kentucky's 21 and 23
> are each "seeded" in one southern county, properly tagged, they simply need
> completion.  If AASHTO's email vote approves these, we remove the
> state=proposed tag, whether the route is fully entered into OSM or not.
> Let's enter it sooner rather than later!  Details on how to do so and links
> to route data in the cloud are found at the WikiProject link above.  Step
> right up, please!
>
> Thank you for making OSM (and its companion renderer OpenCycleMap, as well
> as other great bicycle routing tools) one of the most comprehensive bicycle
> routing platforms in the world.  Like "E pluribus, unum" in the USA, "Ex
> data, multum" in OSM:  "From data, much."  (Yes, I did just make that up!)
>
> SteveA
> California
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Re: [OSM-talk] Scientific paper on "Information Seeding"

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> today I was pointed to a recent, open-access scientific paper called
> "Information Seeding and Knowledge Production in Online Communities:
> Evidence from OpenStreetMap". This open-access paper is available here
>
> https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3044581
>
> In the context of armchair mapping, but especially of data imports (and
> recently, machine-generated OSM data) there's always been the discussion
> between those who say "careful, too much importing will hurt the growth
> of a local community", and others who say "this import is going to
> kick-start a local community, let's do it!"
>

Honestly Frederik, you point to a study and say that it is all scientific.
Furthermore, you act like you just came across the study when in fact you
have already pushed to the mailing lists on two other occasions.[1][2] This
also shows that you have failed to properly check the research before
pushing the link once again.  The study is all scientific sounding yet the
very heart of the study is based on the Modifiable Areal Unit Problem.[3]
Quoting the author "Note that TIGER information was incorporated for 3,093
counties within the US; the state of Massachusetts was excluded because
better quality information
was available from the state government.12 I will restrict my analysis to
these 3,093 counties."  The author picked any data, ignoring the size of
the population or other social and economic factors to make his point.
Thankfully the US Census Bureau uses "Block Groups (BGs) are statistical
divisions of census tracts, are generally defined to contain between 600
and 3,000 people, and are used to present data and control block
numbering."[4]   The whole foundation of the "INFORMATION SEEDING AND
KNOWLEDGE PRODUCTION IN ONLINE COMMUNITIES: EVIDENCE FROM OPENSTREETMAP"
study is based on a geographic division that the
_Census_department_would_not_use_.  The Census Bureau uses their block and
tract configuration for a number of federal programs.

Based on local knowledge you shouldn't even be pushing this study.  This
appears to be what happened.  A smart person takes a plane trip to the east
coast of the US.  That person obtains a degree at MIT and is a
Post-Doctoral Fellow--egg head kind-of smart.  That same person that
authored this study now takes a plane trip to UC Berkeley in California for
a job that the person landed. These two plane trips have led to his fatal
analysis that all counties and the rest of the US must look like MIT and UC
Berkeley and have the same high density as those two cities.

Let's take the Arizona county I map out of, Maricopa County[5], the Arizona
county just north of me, Yavapai County [6], and Switzerland[7] to see the
basic flaws in this research.  5/8th of Switzerland fits in my county
alone.  Adding Yavapai County's size to Maricopa County's size we now have
all of Switzerland covered and the combined population of Maricopa County
and Yavapai County adds only a 228,168 increase to Maricopa County's
population.  The study says that both Maricopa and Yavapai county should
perform the same.  Following this I have always heard from European's that
the American's should perform the same just like how Europe mapped.  The
size of two counties that are part of Arizona swallows up the size of
Switzerland begins to show why the US has a lower mapper density than
Europe does.

Let's compare Germany[8], the state of Montana[9] and the United
States[10].  We see that the size of Montana matches the size of Germany.
Yet, we see the population density is roughly 82 million people in Germany
to 1 million people in Montana.  You see there is nothing special to the
vaunted Germany Pub Meetup as a way to map.  You have the natural density
to make it happen. Moreover, now you feel the German experience should be
the same for the rest of the world and that Montana can have the same
mapping success as Germany.  In Germany mappers are a dime a dozen.   Oh
but wait!  Let's take Germany's population density and see what the US
population would have to be to have the same mapping success.
US Square Milles 3,796,742 / Germany Square Milles 137,903 = It takes
27.53197537399476 Germany's to fit into the US.
This means that to match the German population the US would need
27.5319753739947 * 82,800,000 = 62,279,647,560.966766 people where the
current population is 325,719,178.

The value of travel and education is that a person's understanding of world
is expanded.  That person's view is expanded to understand other human
beings live and work in diverse places. The failure here is that instead of
understanding that the world is different; instead of understanding that
not every one has high speed internet; instead of understanding that not
every one has the same leisure time available to map; the same tired
rhetoric is repeated over and over again that everyone should be able to
craft map their local space has overshadowed the 

Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Importing Addresses in Orange County North Carolina

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Tommy Bruce  wrote:

> I agree I don't see anything wrong with keeping the state and country tag.
>
> 2018-06-23 14:50 GMT-07:00 Greg Morgan :
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 2:34 PM Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A couple of things  First you have two tags that are not needed,
>>> addr:state and  addr:country.
>>>
>> I have a different opinion on this subject. I always add these two tags.
>> We are an international map. If he has the data already, I don't see why
>> they shouldn't be added. My view is shaped by living in a border state.
>>
>
I forgot to mention that these tags where handy when an influx of seo spam
hit my area.  There was no second thought about deleting the spam when
there were Washington, South Carolina, and what not in the seo spam
addresses.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Importing Addresses in Orange County North Carolina

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 2:34 PM Clifford Snow  wrote:

> A couple of things  First you have two tags that are not needed,
> addr:state and  addr:country.
>
I have a different opinion on this subject. I always add these two tags. We
are an international map. If he has the data already, I don't see why they
shouldn't be added. My view is shaped by living in a border state.

>
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

>
> I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one platform
> to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is something we
> can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that was available to us
> at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better platform for
> conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit non-open company well
> in the sense that we're somewhat locked in now. I dislike the fact that it
> is a walled garden, and becoming more so, as much as anyone who values free
> and open data and software. If there is a practical way to improve that
> situation, we should pursue it.
>
> Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
>
> Martijn


I am thinking of something that happened _even before Slack was around_.  I
found out late that, let's say it was, USSOTUM was already a go and that
planning in high gear.  Come to find out that I guess that I should be
reading the US Chapter's blog every day.  I don't recall seeing the
information in an email.  Well with the job that I have now, I have only so
much time to divide between mapping and other activities. Sometimes all I
have time for is a quick scan of email and adding a single node.  My older
phone was only 8G.  I had no room for anther app like slack.  What is nice
about email is that I can watch various OSM messages along with various
github notifications with just one app.  I just don't have time for all the
social media channels out there.

If part of the mission of the US chapter is to "spread the word", then the
chapter is not succeeding by selecting just one channel.  Not everyone has
a nice phone to load apps, or would care about slack, facebook, or
Twitter.  I think that the board needs to use all of the systems to get the
word out.

https://www.openstreetmap.us/
We support OpenStreetMap by holding annual conferences, providing community
resources, building partnerships, and by spreading the word.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 11:42 PM, ajt1...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> On 23/04/2018 03:40, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote:
>
> I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a
> mess in the Denver, Colorado area.
>
>
> What'd really help matters would be if local mappers could comment on
> changesets by new mappers (both "good" and "bad").  I see that someone's
> already commented on a couple of the "thousands of node additions" that
> you're presumably referring to here (if that was you - thanks!), but often
> locals are by far the best people to say "that doesn't look correct".  See
> https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/57929974 for an example near me by
> one of the "organised" mappers that alerted GB and DE mappers to the
> problems there.
>
>
> See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=
> 5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736
>
> Okay so Jack fully supports Nakaner.  He reports that 6-8 users are
creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area.  If we look at the node that
Jack is pointing to, then we will see that Victoria1901,
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Victoria1901 has made 30 edits.  There
are zero blocks against her.   Hyperbole!  Hyperbole!  So she didn't draw
in the way.  Honestly, are we going to grow new mappers or not.  We have to
let new people fail.  That's part of the learning process.  In the same
area is chachafish, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chachafish.  The
user has 124,710 edits.  Is there something that you don't like?  So have I
covered two of the 6-8 editors messing up Denver Colorado?

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com <
jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote:

> I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a
> mess in the Denver, Colorado area.
>
> See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=
> 5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736
>


I cannot tell.  What is it that these six to eight mappers are doing?  Are
these the same six to eight mappers that are receiving blocks?

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com <
jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote:

> I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a
> mess in the Denver, Colorado area.
>
> See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=
> 5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736
>


I cannot tell.  What is it that these six to eight mappers are doing?  Are
these the same six to eight mappers that are receiving blocks?

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 1:06 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a
> number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A
> number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and
> inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.
>
> Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability
> to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be
> run but Apple don't especially like you running it.
>
> We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These
> days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too
> much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.
>
>
Dude I went looking for these so called security issues. I found nothing.
Java is just another language.  I think that you are mixing up Java,
JavaScript, or Active X in the browser with Java as a whole. [1]The
only thing that I could find is that you would have to switch to ADA.  You
cannot trust, Ruby, Java, or your beloved dot net to manage a rocket
guidance system.  The last time I heard something like this was when Steve
Ballmer was at Microsoft.  It is fitting that he retired from Microsoft and
bought a basket ball team.  Apparently, Steve Ballmer feels comfortable in
a court room setting.  ;-)

Regards,
Greg


[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1075.pdf

9.3.16.12 Mobile Code (SC-18) The agency must: a. Define acceptable and
unacceptable mobile code and mobile code technologies c. Establish usage
restrictions and implementation guidance for acceptable mobile code and
mobile code technologies d. Authorize, monitor, and control the use of
mobile code within the information system Mobile code technologies include,
for example, Java, JavaScript, ActiveX, Postscript, PDF, Shockwave movies,
Flash animations, and VBScript, which are common installations on most end
user workstations. Usage restrictions and implementation guidance apply to
both the selection and use of mobile code installed on servers and mobile
code downloaded and executed on individual workstations and devices (e.g.,
tablet computers and smartphones).
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Re: [Talk-us] Edit war after MapRoulette motorway downgrading task

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Clay Smalley  wrote:

>
>
> I'm... shocked. This is a really confrontational way of addressing things,
> and it really doesn't make me feel good contributing here. I'm just gonna
> take a break from editing for a bit. I don't want to add fuel to the fire
> by reverting the edits.
>
> What's the best way to address this?
>
>
You asked for an opinion.  Node hoarders and node police mappers hurt the
project the most.  Regardless if you are right or wrong, you were changing
data right in UAN51's area of interest.  Try not to take the reversions
personally.  Develop a detached sense from your work and what other's do
with it.  The best way to handle it is just let it go.  It was just a few
tags.  The situation is escalating now that another mapper is jumping into
the question.  Moreover, the best thing that you can do right now is make
at least one small changeset a day in your normal area of interest.  That
will get you over the sting that you might feel right now. I am sure there
are plenty of items to add to the map in the metro Houston area.

I hope this helps,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[Greg Morgan]

Thank you for the detailed response.

Greg

On Mar 25, 2018 11:57 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
wrote:

I should have included:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States_railways

as that is a better starting place (for your flavor of question) than our
"at the top" Amtrak wiki.

There's a lot to grok to become a good OSM rail editor (and don't forget
updating wiki), yet, many of us are doing exactly that!

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Jibix  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> I've been a contributor of OpenStreetMap for a few year, with a couple of
> different accounts. I got them deleted today and I though it could be
> worthwhile talking about this here.
>
> In our current era of big data, I have been more and more concerned about
> having all my osm edits publicly linked to my profiles, and these profiles
> publicly listing all these positions and places where I've been, also with
> somehow time information and sometimes comments, etc... visible forever by
> anyone, or any bot. I've looked into making the link between all that data
> not publicly visible, but it seems the functionality there use to be for
> that (anonymous editing) is not possible since 2007/2009.
>
>
Therefore I'm afraid the only way forward I see to address my concerns is
> the following:
> 1) on the one hand having my past accounts deleted, for the corresponding
> change-sets not to be linked any more to my name or pseudonym. I got that
> done today.
> 2) on the other hand, from now on, to periodically create and abandon
> accounts for keeping editing without a massive correlation of data being
> too easily possible (but even like that it's an unperfect tradeoff).
>

If you did not know, not only is there a user name/pseudonym/profile name
but it is linked to an internal number.  The internal number is just a
sequence number that really holds the database together.  More than likely,
the account deletion was nothing more than changing your username.

Start with a fresh account.  Pick some name that you would never user or
take the internal number and add user_ in front of the number.  Then tell
no one what you have done.  Map away.  Map in another area of the world so
that no one can make a relationship between the old you and the new you.
The database needs that internal number to keep the nodes, ways, and
relations glued together.  Otherwise, I think all your plans will not
provide you the privacy that you think that they will.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Help fight advertising

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:44 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> * Contact the mapper responsible and politely ask them to fix it and/or
> stop adding advertising. In most cases, since these are throwaway
> accounts created by professional spammers, you won't receive a response
> but when in doubt, try it.
>


> * Use the business contact information provided to call/email them and
> ask which SEO firm they have paid to add data to OSM, and explain how
> this volunteer project is damaged by the actions of the SEO firm and
> that this also tarnishes the business reputation. Recommended if you
> like a little fight; some SEO operations have already been stopped from
> abusing OSM that way.
>
> * Should we have some MapRoulette task or OSMCha automatism or OSMI view
> to detect potential advertising?
>



> The data is in CSV format with the columns:
>
> date_last_edited,object,created_by,last_edited_by,name,description
>
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/us-seo.txt


 Frederik,

Thank you for the cleanup that you have done.  As of late my changesets
have focused on addressing and additional cleanup of Search Engine
Optimization, SEO, spam in Arizona.  In the case of SEO spam you might just
be wasting your time trying to contact them.*  Here are two examples of SEO
spam that I finally deleted.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4784217504/history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Copper%20Canyon%20Law%
20LLC%C2%A0Tax%20Attorney

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4792771037/history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Simplified%20Celebration

The first set of links are actually in Arizona while the second set of
links are for a company in Washington State.  I tried contacting the owner
of the first set of links*.  I received no response.  I provide these ids
because it would be interesting if someone can look into the OSM database
and see if these SEO mappers used the same SEO spam email address company
i.e. seosp...@seospamcorp.com.  If so, then a black list filter at the OSM
signup level could be a great tool to fight the spam.  I also wonder if a
black list service such as https://www.spamhaus.org/organization/dnsblusage/
might help or if we can use the service.  I would think that OSM qualifies
at under 100,000 emails/accounts a day.  Anyhow, many months after my
email* and around 11 months in OSM, I finally deleted both of these spam
nodes.  It feels like my email went to the spammers and not the business
owner.  I also wonder about the user account.  Has the spammer still won if
the name is not change to user_x and the contact email removed?  I also
found it interesting that mapper Владимир%20К  thought it important to undo
some of Frederik's changes as can be seen in the history for these nodes.

I am not sure that a MapRoulette task would be of helpful but that may be
worth a try.  Your OSM Inspector address overlay[1] has been a great tool
for hunting down the SEO spammers and advertisement.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4911881645/history

Where your address checker helped on this address was that the house number
was in the general range of address numbers but Camelback Road is way south
of this location.  That address came up as a nice red shinny dot in a
residential area.  Mapillary sequences on Camelback Road would make it
easier to add the address at the correct location verses moving the
address.  Resolution delete.  A MapRoulette challenge for a mapper outside
my local area may take a large effort to correct the address verses my
quick determination. As an example,  Владимир%20К, from Russia could not
determine that these were bad addresses and not worth saving.  In another
set of changes[2], a mapper from Germany could not determine that 1 was the
wrong address number for the area.  We need additional tools with address
number ranges and zipcode boundaries to detect these issues.  Moreover, the
US states need to be treated like individual countries in Europe.  Pascal's
OSM tool does not help me at a state level when the whole US is treated as
one blob.

Several years ago I had two mappers add a bunch of addr:* tags in my
mapping area then disappear.  All those red streets in OSMI made for an
ineffective tool.  The red from the streets reduced the effectiveness of
detecting bad addresses/spam.  I have cleaned up most of these streets
now.   Now I can use OSMI to also detect street names that have been
changed to business names by SEO or other kinds of map spammers.  Of course
that only works if I have address coverage to match.  In this cause, all of
the address nodes would turn red.

The last set of links that I provide you is also number two in Frederiks'
Arizona list. I will soon be deleting this spam. Now people _please don't
click_ on the URL in the node if you do not like birthday suits. I believe
this was really was a yoga place at one time but now is into some other new
age stuff.  Yet this kind of spam is just a redirect to a birthday suite

Re: [OSM-talk] shop windows on differnt streets

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Catonano  wrote:

> I hope this is the right place to ask about tagging
>
> There s this shop that has shop windows on 2 streets
> https://imgur.com/a/icpwJ
>
> Some of its shop windows have street numbers. as shown here
> https://imgur.com/a/ny08t
>
> This is  a quite common case, as you can see here
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vr2vKuqr1S5hjf772
>
> Some have their shop windows separated by building entrances or a
> different shop windows
>
> How do I map these ?
>
> My idea is that every shop window should be its own point with address
> info and then a relation should group them and be tagged with common data,
> such as the shop name, the web site, the phone number, the operator,
> whatever
>
> Does anyone here know of any example of a similar situation ?
>

I would say that it depends on your jurisdiction and how they create
addresses.  In my case, the address is set most of the time by what side
the water meter is on.  In that case it is easy to set the address except
on corner buildings like you point out.  In addition, in newer addresses it
seems that the whole structure gets an address.  Then sub-addressing as
they call it provides a suite/flat number for each of the shops.  I have
also seen the cases that you provide.   In this case, I make an address
point in the building polygon where the doorway is located. A shop window
can provide the same address point location.  I just create a separate POI
for the shop.  The address will remain even if the building is torn down
but shop owner and merchandise can have great volatility.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Comparing Tiger 2017 dataset with OSM in a automatedway.

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 11:00 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> Thank you, Tod.  Yes, I MIGHT find a VERY SELECT SUBSET of these data
> SOMEWHAT useful, as minor amounts of them seem to be accurate and
> more-up-to-date enough to introduce into OSM.  But certainly not using any
> sort of automated method.  Essentially, every single datum would need to be
> human-reviewed, possibly corrected, likely conflated, and for a great many
> of them, on-the-ground verified.  I'd say "garbage" seems too strong, but
> "very noisy with a highly limited potential to add some minor value to our
> map, coupled with great effort to vet, improve and enter the data" seems
> about right.
>
> SteveA
> California
>
>
Yep! While not good for an import the data is useful for comparison.  I see
where I could pick up some road names and new subdivisions from Badita's
data. A more useful comparison would be an update to Alex Barth's "Better
Than OSM" tiles.  Does anyone on the list know of a friend of a friend at
MapBox?  Would you please ask them to update Alex's work?
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#12/33.7449/-112.1031

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Comparing Tiger 2017 dataset with OSM in a automatedway.

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 2:40 AM, Badita Florin 
wrote:
...

> Did not had time to look at each individual state, but i will share the
> insight for Arizona :
> Feel free to look at the other states.
> And please, if you want me to run this on any public dataset, just tell
> me, I will help you create a translation file, and we can compare any SHP
> with OSM, and get the results.
>
>
Uploaded on the google drive folder Arizona, the result size is 267 MB XML
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B7aOUf0DFRnLU3hUWFNu
> S05JS2c?usp=sharing
>
> There seems to be some new neighborhoods that were constructed/ are being
> constructed added to this TIGER 2017 release.
>

Badita,

Bless your little heart!  Finally, there are some real analysis without
saying imports are bad and they kill the community.  The problem that you
have found is that metro Phoenix is building again--going gang
busters. Phoenix alone just surpassed Philadelphia as the 5th largest city
in the US. Some of the examples you provided look like the subdivisions
that went bankrupt during the subprime rate recession.  Developers are
working these subdivisions again.  You can see a glimpse of the roof tiles
on this subdivision that collapsed during the subprime rate debacle but is
actively being built right now.
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/oEdJEx6gjEBgOjtRtkjkHQ

It is not just roads where the growth and change is happening.  Iconic
buildings--as far as Phoenix goes--are being plowed under for apartment
buildings.
July 2016
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/WDRNcgF6KECHwfsj-qeNBA
October 2017
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/zZXUcxZJAT2UxrlQCyIvsQ
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/08/03/new-central-avenue-macayos-open-phoenix-early-2017/88008706/

I would only bore you to death with more examples of both.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

Tod,

Thank you for your help in Arizona--mostly metro Phoenix.  I think that we
need to ask MapBox to revise the 2017 Tiger layer.  There were short ways
without names in Tiger 2017 that both the Tiger 2014  and Tiger 2015 layers
have/had.  It was a mistake for them to remove 2015.  That is why you could
not find some of the names with the 2017 layer.

He! He!  You left me some great challenges.  I think those are best consume
in small changes.  Thanks also for the overpass query.

I think I got them all. The ones that had a name on the Tiger 2017 overlay
> at least. The ones that did not have a Tiger name (looks to be mostly
> service roads) I changed to “fixme=chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required”
>
>
> Here is a search for those:
>
> /*
> This query looks for nodes, ways and relations
> with the given key/value combination.
> Choose your region and hit the Run button above!
> */
> [out:xml]/*fixed by auto repair*/[timeout:25];
> // gather results
> (
>   // query part for: “name=chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required”
>   node["fixme"="chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required"](31.259769987394286,-116.
> 56494140625001,37.309014074275915,-108.0615234374);
>   way["fixme"="chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required"](31.259769987394286,-116.
> 56494140625001,37.309014074275915,-108.0615234374);
>   relation["fixme"="chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required"](31.
> 259769987394286,-116.56494140625001,37.309014074275915,-108.
> 0615234374);
> );
> // print results
> out meta;/*fixed by auto repair*/
> >;
> out meta qt;/*fixed by auto repair*/
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Oct 10, 2017 8:13 AM, "Tod Fitch"  wrote:

I have started trying to clean up some of the redactions in Arizona,
starting with the town of Maricopa. As Ian pointed out, these were
“pre-redacted” and rather than deleting the road name, the name was changed
to chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required.


I did not see that the redaction was finished. I will work on any of the
remaining names. The chdr changes were focused on various new subdivisions
at time of the changes.


The problem is there are some roads that do not have names on the Tiger
2017 overlay. At this time I have left those untouched.

My worry is that there does not seem to be a lot of local mappers working
in the area so it may be a while before the remaining
name=chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required roads get fixed. In the meantime data
consumers will be giving confusing information to end users. I can see (or
mentally hear) lots of routing guidance with “turn right at churdr usa az
name fixup required”.

I am inclined to simply delete the name if Tiger 2017 has no name. That
will do two things: 1. Make the map and routing less wrong. And 2. Allow
the normal QA tools we have indicate an issue (residential road with no
name).

Thoughts?

Tod

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:21 PM, Ian McEwen 
wrote:
>
> AZ has none because of https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51502902
> rather than an actual absence of things to fix from this (that changeset
> essentially pre-redacted the names, so they no longor appear in
> Frederick's list of redactions). I've fixed those I could find in the
> Tucson & Pima County areas, but there's still lots to be gone over in
> AZ.
>
> Just mentioning this so if anyone's doing anything like tasking manager
> work, they'll know they need to special-case AZ.
>
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 09:21:59AM -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
>> FYI,
>>
>> No redactions in Oregon, Arizona or Utah. I’ve added Tiger 2017 names to
the ways in the list located in California and Nevada. Later today I’ll do
New Mexico and Colorado.
>>
>> I’ve got to restrain myself from correcting geometry, adding surface,
lanes, turn lanes, etc. while I do this. :)
>>
>> Tod
>>
>>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Tod Fitch  wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like there are about 6600 redactions in the US. Did a quick sort
of the list by country and state and it looks like Texas has the most (by
eyeing the list rather than counting). Most states have a very manageable
number. There were about 42 in California and I was able to apply Tiger
2017 names to 38 of those. Most states will be that easy.
>>>
>>> All I did was take the list, extract out the ones for California, do a
edit to add "https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/“ in front of the way ID and
then do a “Load Location” in JOSM for each. Looked at them with the Tiger
2017 overlay imagery to see if there was a name I could apply. Took maybe
1/2 hour to do all of California.
>>>
>>> Not sure this is a big enough job to bother putting up a OSM task for
it. Just grab the way IDs in your state, and maybe in your neighboring
state(s), and do it.
>>>
>>> Texas and maybe New York will require more work, so maybe those could
be broken into tasks. But for the rest I think it would pretty much be “one
state is one task”.
>>>
 On Oct 8, 2017, at 3:28 AM, Nick Hocking 
wrote:

 Can someone put up an OSM task so that we can replace these names ,
from Tiger 2017?
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Re: [Talk-us] guidelines regarding roads access

[Greg Morgan]

On Sep 24, 2017 8:33 AM, "Greg Troxel"  wrote:


Adam Franco  writes:

> One additional note is that at least in my area, the TIGER import
> incorrectly added access=private to many driveways and privately
maintained
> residential roads. Upon surveying these I've found that they are signed
> "Private" or "PVT" on the street-name sign to indicate
> private-maintenance/ownership (don't complain to the town about a lack of
> snow-plowing/grading), but do not in reality have an access restriction.


https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=oyEdoFPUg3yayTv1deHZUQ=33.567826=-112.016051=17

I initially marked a street like this as access=private.  Then I found out
that this definition of private is more like Adam's experience. However, I
did not experience the issue with the TIGER import. I am not sure that an
HOA is a good thing.  I stay away from them for a number of reasons
including the leftovers of the subprime rate debacle.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2017/09/14/phoenix-area-homeowners-associations-foreclosing-record-number-homeowners/595816001/


For a "private way" (legal term in my state for what I think you refer
to as "privately maintained residential road"), I agree that there
shouldn't be access=private.

For a driveway to someone's house, access=private seems right, in that
it's generally at least impolite to use that road other than as
visitor/delivery/etc.

...

But, that tends to lead to pink blobs in rendering, and I'm not sure
that's the right thing, as service roads having the status "you should
use these only when dealing with the adjacent entities" seems to be the
default/normal case.  We should adjust rendering, not access, to make
this pleasing.


The rendering has been changed to a gray dashed center line.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Requesting to remove stoplines in San Jose

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Vivek Bansal <3viv...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey, I noticed pfliers has added lots of unconnected ways w/
> `highway=stopline` all over San Jose. It’s really been cluttering up our
> workflows in iD, and now it’s triggering JOSM’s validator as we’re adding
> sidewalks. Can we remove them in one big mechanical edit? Even if the
> concept is good, they’d have to be remapped in order to be useful anyways.
> Maybe they should be a node along the centerline.  Or instead they should
> be a road_marking.
>
> This also affects Phoenix, Arizona.
>
> Here is a link to pfliers history:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/pflier/history#map=6/38.882/-117.411
>
> Here is pfliers proposal:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/stop_line
>
> -3vivekb
>
> I noticed the new tagging in Phoenix.  I sent the Keep Right maintainer a
request that excludes highway=stopline from "intersections without
junctions" checking.  I do not believe the sky is falling.  I don't see how
these stoplines would have to be remapped.  When we look at the data, all
the Phoenix stoplines are mapped by traffic lights.  I am not sure how
stoplines would impact your workflow.  Ignore the Josm validation
recommendations for these stoplines.  I haven't put a request into Josm
maintainers but it is certainly something that you can do.

The proposal has something to do with autonomous cars. The stoplines may
just be perfect for the Phoenix area.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2017/06/23/arizona-getting-ahead-autonomous-vehicle-industry-stepping-aside-waymo-uber-intel-chevy-bolt/405436001/

https://www.keepright.at/report_map.php?zoom=15=33.51322=-112.06043=B0T=0%2C130%2C191%2C192%2C193%2C194%2C195%2C196%2C197%2C198_ign=0_tmpign=0
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Re: [OSM-talk] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Bianca Hambasan  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> We, the map analysts team from Telenav started editing in Phoenix by
> adding and reviewing the road geometry and road name, so we found this
> issue too. In our area of interest, we found about 5 200 ways with this
> tag. We want to help with this since we already edit in the area. Do you
> have any suggestions if we can contribute without overlapping our work? We
> can also use Map Roulette challenges, so anyone can be involved. If you
> have any other suggestion, we are open to them.
>
> As a source, we use Tiger data and Open Street Cam. What do you think
> about the accuracy of them?
>
>
>

Frederik,

What is the status of your name redaction?  chdr impacted many of the
streets that I made edits to.  I'd like to start fixing the names with the
Tiger 2015 layer.  However, I need to wait on your redaction.  I marked the
streets that need to be attended to by the chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required
tag. I am not sure if your redaction will remove my name tag target or
not.  Can you localize you redaction to just Arizona so that I can get
going?  As noted by Bianca, Telenav is in the area editing right now and
would love to help with the fix up effort.

Please Advise,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Edits in Phoenix, Arizona

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:49 AM, Horea Meleg 
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> We are editing in Maricopa and Pinal counties area, where we have tiger
> and approved local data. Thanks for all input and advice. We already talked
> with Hans about highway tags when we had some concerns. We talked with some
> mappers in Phoenix about signpost and the tag destination:street, which we
> used before in other areas but in Phoenix it’s not used. Could you give us
> some pointers: why do you not use it? Could we?
>

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/60547575
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/756209453

Look at the history on these to objects.  Was name, ref, exit_to, or
destination the tag to use or now is it destination:street?  Do you put the
tags on the node or the way? In my case, freeway exit numbers and mileposts
are important.  I put in many of the exit numbers.  I found something
better to do that keep up with all the "shall we do it this way
discussions".  Go right ahead and make the changes.  Your changes will be a
model for other future exits or exits left unchanged.

Thanks,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] guidelines regarding roads access

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Ionut Radu - (p) 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> While editing road geometry in Phoenix we found some situations that are
> arguable, considering the private districts/neighborhoods/trailer parks
> and other strata-style developments, with/without street names and
> with/without gates at the entrance:
>
>
It is very simple.  In my case, I have enough time to tiger fixup a set of
streets and then I have to dash for work or other errands.  I wouldn't read
too much into this.


>
> - streets are mapped as residential roads with unlimited access. (ex:
> 33.5412459, -112.2150893)
>
 Hans added the gates.  So split the road at the gate and add the access
tags.  All you are doing is building on another mappers work.

- streets are mapped as residential roads with limited access after the
> gate (access=no, access=private, access=destination) (ex: 33.5315072,
> -112.0206161;
>
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5664037/history
After 17 versions on this way, I finally put in the access tags.  I was
performing another pass of the Tiger fixup in this neglected area and found
the gates.  This also means I could correctly determine where the access
tags should be added.  It is not like I can go in the gated subdivision and
survey it.  Hence the access tags were added.

I would chalk this up to various skill levels at of mappers at various
times in their mapper lives or what the mapper is interested in.  Please
add the gates if you see them and access tags were needed.  Moreover if you
look at the dual carriage ways around this way
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/499095961 you will see that these were
added three months ago.  Mappers have to have the interest in performing
this kind of work.  That's all.

Also note that the metro Phoenix area is a very large area.  We also have a
transient population.  Right about now the snowbirds from the north and the
sunbirds that live here and own property during the winter--ha ha ha--but
vacation elsewhere during the summer are showing up.  They have little
interest in mapping.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Edits in Phoenix, Arizona

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 4:31 AM, Horea Meleg 
wrote:

> Hi everyone!
>
> This is Horea and I am part of the mapping team at Telenav.
>
> To make OpenStreetMap more navigable and accurate in guidance, our mapping
> team is planning to start editing in Phoenix.
>

Do you mean the City of Phoenix or the metro Phoenix area?  There is plenty
of work to do in both.  However, I'd like your team to stay awhile and work
on the metro area.  ;-)

In the next weeks we will focus on road geometry, road name, oneways,
> signpost, speed limit, lanes and turn lanes.
>
> This is where you come in! Beside the general OSM mapping guidelines (
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page, ht
> tp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features), do you have any local
> mapping guidelines for us? Also, we appreciate any hints regarding
> available local or government data that we might be able to us.
>
> We'd love any input and advice!
>
>
>  On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> turn restrictions, missing roads (if any), one-way roads, traffic signals,
> some carto features such as parks.
>

Hans Dekryger is a mapping force.  I think he maps all those features
except turn restrictions. Hans has done a great job of adding dual carriage
ways to metro Phoenix.  Most of the turn restriction and traffic flow
entries are false positives.  I see many no left turns suggestions where a
dual carriage way comes together. Only a few drivers make the u-turn.  It
would be incorrect to add those restrictions.


> As always we will respect local mappers’ work above everything.
>
Thank you for your concern.


> Sources will be Bing / DG, OpenStreetCam, Mapillary,
>
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109740061
Bing is your best bet.  Digital Globe is not even competitive.
If you look at the new ASU Law building, you can see that Bing has the
building under construction. DG premium show the area as a green parking
lot. DG standard shows the footing being dug.  DG is great for rural areas
but not here.  Bing is actual airplane flyovers around 2014 .  The new ESRI
imagery is newer but it does not let you overzoom.  Bing will still give
you tiles to zoom 20.  ESRI has newer data to zoom 17 and then shows the
same DG standard for 18. Overzooming only provides white tiles.

ImproveOSM (GPS based detections) augmented with government data where
> possible (which is where Horea’s question came from).
>
>


> Where possible we will publish MapRoulette / Tasking Manager jobs for
> anyone to participate.
>
The Phoenix area was hit hard by the chdr changes.  Fredrick lists affected
streets as Arizona but there are only three small outliers: Yuma, a few
along Mexico, and Tucson.  The rest were sub-prime rate subdivisions that
chdr either added the geometry and name or just the name.  The tiger2015
layer is more than adequate to cover these names.  I have set all  name
tags to chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required because the rest of the metro
Phoenix are pockets.  You can use any number of tools to search and repair
the name.  Other than this issue I cannot think of any potential
MapRoulette challenges.



> If you have any (other) specific insights to share, like locally specific
> mapping practices, things on the ground that are different / specific to
> the area, data you’ve worked with, let us know. Thanks!
>
 Remove all the tiger tags when you are done with a street.  Add surface
tags and lanes if you can. I use surface tag of dirt verses tracks.  I
started using the dirt surface tag when the town of Tonopah disappeared on
http://tripmaker.randmcnally.com/ . Tripmaker will let you route over dirt
but tracks do not display.

You really cannot use blue tiles like you would else where.  Most all of
our flood plains are recreation areas such as golf courses, and area mini
parks.  Most of the small neighborhood green looking mini-park areas are
dual use.  They are a catch basin during heavy rains but function as a
park.  Here is an example https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/YychJAU-Vwq_
3LVkTCiVHg . Although it is hard to see all the water and park features
because of the basis feature.


> Another way you can help is drive around and capture OSC / Mapillary in
> the area (duplicate coverage welcome) even though OSC coverage is already
> pretty good (mostly thanks to Greg).
>
>
I have not been able to keep up the OSC submissions.  They are just a save
subset of my Mapillary runs.  You will want to use Mapillary.  WSP is an
engineering firm out of Chicago.  They have/had a contract to so some work
around here.  They used Mapillary to get street imagery. cookry and wsp-us
are the same person.   In the wsp-us runs Ryan used two cameras: front and
back.  You'll have more than 2.1 million photos to work from in the the
metro Phoenix area and surrounds.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Zoe Gardner  wrote:

> Dear OSM talk subscriber
>
>
>
> I am a Research Fellow in the Nottingham Geospatial Institute at the
> University of Nottingham in the UK, interested in participation biases in
> geospatial crowdsourced projects such as OSM and other Volunteered
> Geographical Information (VGI) projects. My current research project is
> concerned with the way in which participation biases in OSM may potentially
> affect the usability of the data that is collected and subsequently what is
> available to location based service providers which use OSM as their
> primary geospatial database.
>
>
>
> The project is motivated by recent research that has found a strong male
> bias in OSM participation. This has led to assertions that various
> geospatial knowledge could be under represented or poorly recorded on the
> map.
>

Zoe,

I believe that you need to go back to the drawing board.  OSM is not about
gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation. OSM is about people with
leisure time that are willing to spend to add nodes to a map.  If I like to
add buidlings to the map, there is nothing about those nodes and one way
that compose the building that would discriminate or leave out information
based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation.

This sounds like one of those surveys designed to damage OSM.
"data that is collected and subsequently what is available to location
based service providers"
That statement sound like you are performing research for a vendor that
cannot compete with OSM.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] a sample panoramic aerial image for 3D mapping made with the new DJI Spark quad-copter

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:37 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> I received today my new DJI Spark quad-copter and made a panoramic aerial
> image with it:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Aerial_photograp
> hs_of_Geneva#/media/File:Geneva-aerial-panorama.jpg
>
> This aircraft is so small and light that some local regulations are not
> even applicable for it, as the they are mostly for the UAVs from 0.5 kg up
> to 30 kg (though the common sense and good piloting are always applicable).
> Nevertheless the image is of a surprisingly good quality for a cloudy day,
> and since it is panoramic it covers quite a large area.
>
> The 21 aerial photos for a panoramic image are taken automatically during
> a flight, and then they are stitched together by the DJI Media Maker
> software on a PC.
>
>  Oleksiy,

Thanks for sharing.  Have you tried to vertical shots?  For example, I know
of a new building.  I'd like to get building and the surrounding
improvements.  It seems like a small UAV that you describe would do the job.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Phoneix, Arizona open data

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 2:17 AM, Horea Meleg 
wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Me and my Telenav colleagues, are planning to start editing in Phoenix,
> Arizona. We are thinking of adding some map features like road geometry,
> name, one way or turn restrictions.  We’ve made a research for local data,
> and we’ve found this open source data: https://www.phoenix.gov/opendata#
> . The specific datasets are: Street
> center line for City of Phoenix
> , 
> Street
> Name Labels
> , 
> Traffic
> Restrictions along Streets
> 
> and Traffic Restrictions at Intersections
> 
> .
>
> We are wondering if these datasets have already been used/vetted in the
> past?
>
> If someone knows something about it, please inform us.
>

I don't think that this data will buy you much.  It is just a street center
line without dual carriage information. I think is works better for land
development zoning that OSM data.  I know that the MapBox data team has
already come through and added to lane counts and turn restrictions along
major roads.  I believe other mappers have worked hard on OSM turn
restrictions too Paul Johnson appears to be prolific with the work.  Please
contribute how you can.  Your edits are welcome.

The name labels will not be of much use.  The tiger data was correct in all
the places that I have mapped. Ohh! Ahh! Look at the beautiful Tiger fixup
map.
http://product.itoworld.com/map/162?lon=-112.04146=33.56395=11 I
am going back through now removing all the tiger tags and rechecking
geometries created with Yahoo. I know Hans has done a great job in many
areas with the Tiger fixup.  Dave Hansen, balrog-kun, iandees  I love you
guys for work you did that I did not have to do.  Tiger was the best import
ever!  balrog-kun's name expansion saved me so many hours of time.
iandees import of geonames saved many many hours of research.  These
automated changes allowed me to work on other issues.  I am an osmer that
thinks that the Tiger import was a good thing!

Adding missing speed limits would be a better effort than attempting to
sorting out the opendata site.  I looked at the site along time ago when it
was launched  but found these two confusing links.  I cannot tell if they
have just relinked the phoenix.gov website terms into the opendata terms.
Is it opendata or closed data?  Perhaps you'd want to send a note to them
to clear up the questionable terms.  The site appears to be more of a sales
pitch than anything with a real substantial opendata contribution.
https://www.phoenix.gov/opendata/terms
https://www.phoenix.gov/opendata/policy

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> In fact reading this thread i cannot really believe this discussion is
> actually happening, that there seem to be people who think that a large
> scale unauthorized use of data can be 'healed' by rubber stamping it
> with a 'review' of the names.
>

-1
We do get to go through the five stages.  We do get to express the emotions
until acceptance of our fate as part of the healing process.  There is no
rubber stamping!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 3:16 AM, James  wrote:

> As Stewart has pointed out there are some changes that are valid(name
> expansion). I think Mr.Ramm needs to revise his selection algorithm before
> mass deletion
>

I don't think that it make a difference.   I certainly don't want to make
more edits on questionable data!

My heart goes out to other countries without a source like to rebuild clean.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Mikel Maron  wrote:

> > we can find a good workflow for that. I wasn't expecting the community
> to start working on this pre-redaction but if people prefer that to
> fixing issues later...
>
> Absolutely, let's do this!
>
>
On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
>
> Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a
> proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create
> the challenge but I'd be happy to do it.
> Martijn
>
>
>
 Change set # 51502902

Here's what I did and the plan:

* I selected out Arizona USA.
* I used the magic of regular expressions to change the way id in the file
Frederik provided to a josm remote control command.
* The remote control command allowed me to load all the data into one
file.  I changed the name tag to chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required.  The new
name creates a great search target.
* I made no other changes before uploading the changeset.
* I would expect that the DWG would redact the potential name issues from
all the prior versions.
* Next a MapRoulette challenge can be constructed with the
chdr_USA_AZ_name_fixup_required search target.  The challenge will be
localized to Arizona because of the name change.
* The Tiger 2015 layer will be a good source to use name correction in the
challenge.  Others without the Tiger name source will not be so lucky.

The questions and observations:
* chdr is the last modifier of 2980 out of 5696 ways, 52%. These ways would
appear like the first and last introduction of the potential damage.
* The highest way version on one example way was 24.  Does this mean that
the redaction would have to be performed in all the 24 revisions?
* I came in at 1685 out of 5969 ways, 30%.  Even though I can rationalize
and observe that chdr's street name matches the Tiger 2015 layer, I cannot
prove or disprove this. I'd rather make a proactive resolution to the issue
than wait for additional edits on these ways.
* It took a long time for the name change to complete in JOSM once the last
remote control command was issued.

DWG you are up. Please redact the name issue in the prior versions of the
ways in Change set # 51502902.

Once the DWG is finished, it would be great if Martijn could assist me
develop a MapRoulette challenge.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:

> I don't understand what people mean with 'verifying' objects. We're
> not trying to find factually-incorrect data. The data is legally
> tainted. It's questionable whether looking at the current names
> imported from GMaps, comparing to another source, seeing they match
> and marking them as "verified" will legally change anything.



> And it's
> impossible to know if people are really verifying anything or just
> blindly marking them as verified.
>
>
Nicolás is there any chance you can refrain from slimming the community
like that?



> I think the only clean way to solve this is to redact and then re-map
> from legal sources.
>

If you are in another country than the US and Canada, then you may not have
a second legal source and you would make this statement.  In my case, I
have had a series of tiger name layers work from over the years..  So what
Fredrick wants to do based on his list is to wipe out my work with his
purposed blind revert.  As an example, here is way
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/103141172 .  I cleaned up the geometry
two years ago.  I added access tags and what not.  I make it a habit of
removing all tiger tags when I am finished cleaning up and verifying names
with the tiger layer.  Way 103141172 is on Fredrick's list.  If he performs
is revert, then I am going to have to go back and add the name back that I
have already checked on.  Hence, I do not agree with either of your
statements.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:

> I don't understand what people mean with 'verifying' objects. We're
> not trying to find factually-incorrect data. The data is legally
> tainted. It's questionable whether looking at the current names
> imported from GMaps, comparing to another source, seeing they match
> and marking them as "verified" will legally change anything.



> And it's
> impossible to know if people are really verifying anything or just
> blindly marking them as verified.
>
>
Nicolás is there any chance you can refrain from slimming the community
like that?



> I think the only clean way to solve this is to redact and then re-map
> from legal sources.
>

If you are in another country than the US and Canada, then you may not have
a second legal source and you would make this statement.  In my case, I
have had a series of tiger name layers work from over the years..  So what
Fredrick wants to do based on his list is to wipe out my work with his
purposed blind revert.  As an example, here is way
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/103141172 .  I cleaned up the geometry
two years ago.  I added access tags and what not.  I make it a habit of
removing all tiger tags when I am finished cleaning up and verifying names
with the tiger layer.  Way 103141172 is on Fredrick's list.  If he performs
is revert, then I am going to have to go back and add the name back that I
have already checked on.  Hence, I do not agree with either of your
statements.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a
> proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create
> the challenge but I'd be happy to do it.
>
> Martijn
>

Martijn,

I'd would be great if you can break this down to an area.  For example, I
have a list of Arizona streets.  I'd prefer to work on this as an Arizona
challenge verses one big chdr challenge.

Please Advise,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a
> proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create
> the challenge but I'd be happy to do it.
>
> Martijn
>

Martijn,

I'd would be great if you can break this down to an area.  For example, I
have a list of Arizona streets.  I'd prefer to work on this as an Arizona
challenge verses one big chdr challenge.

Please Advise,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 27, 2017 11:58, "Yves"  wrote:
>
>  a écrit :
>
>
> Frederik,
>
>
> Thanks for notifying us about this. I hope that you treat this as an
> import or automated edit and follow the rules you would expect to see the
> rest of the community follow
>
>
> Ian,
> To lessen the burden of the DWG, I would say that this thread is
> sufficient to document the redaction, plus whatever documentation the DWG
> usually make.
>
>
> I strongly disagree. As a group of people who have received extra-judicial
> powers in the OSM community, they should be expected to follow community
> guidelines to a higher degree than the rest of the community.
>

I agree with Ian.  Yves what about the DWG lessening the burden on mappers?
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Re: [Talk-us] Contacting local mappers or posting a note to "mappers in area". How to. Etiquette. Horseshoe Bend, ID,

[Greg Morgan]

On Aug 25, 2017 10:39 PM, "Tod Fitch"  wrote:

Mozilla Location services and open cell ID share data. You can down load
the Mozilla database as a CSV file. That will have the lat/lon and
identification of every cell tower they know about.

You can also download it from open cell I'd but you need an api key for
them.


Todd that is real interesting. I also found this
https://www.mylnikov.org/archives/1059
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Re: [Talk-us] Contacting local mappers or posting a note to "mappers in area". How to. Etiquette. Horseshoe Bend, ID,

[Greg Morgan]

On Aug 25, 2017 5:36 PM, "Bryce Nesbitt"  wrote:

I know about map notes.

Are there other ways I could post a bulletin message mappers in a given
region might see and react to?

Here it is not directly an OSM mapping task, so a map note seems
inappropriate.
But it's a task a local mapper would be perfect for, and it's no big deal.
Is there such a mechanism?

   -Bryce


NB: In particular I'm hoping to find someone willing to verify if tower SID
4881 of a certain Verizon cellular tower is coming from *Packer Joe
Overlook* near *Horseshoe Bend, ID,* or if that tower ID is coming from
above *Sweet, ID*.


Keypad Mapper 3 collects cell tower information. It may be worth a look at
their database to see if someone drove by that area with app on.  ID has
some sparsely populated areas. Good luck on finding local mappers. It's
worth a try.
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup for Hurricane Harvey potential impact areas

[Greg Morgan]

On Aug 25, 2017 1:59 PM, "Brian May"  wrote:

Calling all TIGER fixup junkies. I've been poking around the coastal areas
of Texas where Hurricane Harvey is expected to make landfall and seeing a
lot of TIGER fixup needed. More and more websites depend on OSM so it would
be nice to provide more accurate and updated info than what is there now.
Maps and GIS are going to be heavily relied on especially after the storm.


I find it interesting that US is called on to save the world. Will there be
a HOT activating for Texas? Will we get any new imagery for the area? Are
local agencies so well prepared that there is no need to use OSM?
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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 06/30/2017 06:21 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
> > Edits, from what appears to be a search engine optimization company
> > (SEO), have damaged a number of ways in the US.
>
> Was it not possible to determine the user accounts responsible and then
> have DWG revert all their contributions? Or did these accounts also
> contribute good data?
>


Back in April I did send an email to DWG. I also included the response with
the DWG name redacted[1].  Here's part of the problem.  I have identified
an account that is a spam account.  There is a pattern to these spam
edits.  If I do tell you that only bad things come from a single account
and I am not engaging in an edit war and if I tell you the way that was
altered was malicious, then to leave these spam accounts around, let's them
still win.  They have their account with the same data as in the tags.

Am 01.07.2017 um 08:33 schrieb Simon Poole:

...given that we have a known US based SEO company that has created
(literally) 1000s of such accounts (but with slightly less spammy edits),
and "we" haven't taken any action, why should we in this case?

How do you know this is all coming from a US based Simon?  How does
targeting US locations make it an US based company?  If it the same
occurred in Europe, then I am sure you would have more care and concern
than you are showing here.  Dude I often cringe when I reas what you write
in email.

The ChanlerAir is the more pernicious version of the problem. This pattern
changes a real OSM feature such as a road. OSM Change Set Analyser may be
useful here because they changed the street name.

In the second version of the problem[2], the change is subtle but uses some
of the same principles. LOL, I included the email that I sent to the Tax
firm.  You can email the OSM account and any of the firms involved but you
will not get a response.

Bayesian spam filters have been used for years to work on spam issues.
These spam changes do not need that complexity to detect.
 1.) The OSM account name has something to do with the change: Copper
Canyon Law LLC Tax Attorney
 2.) I cannot confirm this but I am guessing that the account name is the
same or similar to the email address used to setup the OSM account.
 3.) There is only one edit.
 4.) There may be a gravitar on the OSM account.  Think about it.  How many
newbies have a gravitar and make one edit?
 5.) Most of the time, The OSM account profile page, the change set text
and description tag all have the same business oriented marketing text.
The changeset text and the description tag look the same in the cases that
I have observed.
 6.) If there is a name tag, then it may be the same as the OSM user
account.  This is where the pernicious version of these changes can be
detected because the street name is changed.
 7.) The addr:.* tags are abbreviated.
 8.) The addr:state may not be the in the same location as where the edit
was made i.e. the location is AZ but addr:state is MD, WA, CA.  The rub
here is that most of the change set tools treat all of the US as one area
verses the need for multiple areas.  If I see a newbie make a change via
Pascal's tool,  I cannot tell if a new change in MD is correct or not
because I live thousand of miles away.
 9.) The actual change will have a full email address.  I have not seen
many newbies master that many tags on their first change.
10.) There will be a phone number.
11.) As stated already, there will be a description tag.  In my case, I use
description tags on relations but not in all cases.  The description tag
may be one of the key markers for this kind-of spam edit.
12.) There will be an email address.
13.) There may be a fax number.
14.) There will be a website.
15.) In the pattern of nodes that I present, I show that open areas and
strange locations are involved.  LOL we do a lot with our washes in Arizona
because we can put a golf course where the water runs infrequently.  We
will not put an Asian eatery nor a tax law firm by a flood control feature.



> Was it not possible to determine the user accounts responsible and then
> have DWG revert all their contributions? Or did these accounts also
> contribute good data?
>

This is where I think that the DWG needs an oversight board. I've seen
where the DWG will rollback good edits like the recent wikidata rollback
without community input.  I've had to cleanup these crappy reversions. I've
seen the DWG go after real newbies because they are exited and want to make
a difference but make a few mistakes. However, when there is a clear
pattern, the attitude is that the DWG all will not lift a hand.  That's the
perception that I have of the DWG.

By the way, Fred, I am not asking you to delete these nodes.  I have been
saving the examples for other mappers and perhaps a tool like OSM CA can
make a go of detecting these malicious edits.

Regards,
Greg

Re: [Talk-us] United States Bicycle Route 41 awaits OSM entry!

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 3:20 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> A brief reminder to any Minnesota (or Upper Midwest) mappers who may be
> inspired to enter some rewarding OSM data:  United States Bicycle Route
> (USBR) 41 is a new national-level bicycle route from Minneapolis to Grand
> Portage and the Canadian border, largely along Lake Superior.  Your
> reward?  You'll get to see USBR 41 "blossom" on OpenCycleMap (Cycle Map
> layer) as a solid red line with "41" badges!
>
> The route is over 300 miles, a relation is now "seeded" at its north and
> south termini.  To enter this route, please see our wiki:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_U.S._Bicycle_Route_System
> and scroll down to USBR 41, clicking on a link to find official AASHTO
> route data, which OSM has explicit permission to enter.  Whether you enter
> a single mile or all 300+, this is the final USBR before the next round at
> AASHTO.  Thank you!
>

If you see future requests from Steve about the USBR routes, then you might
want to accept one of these as a challenge.  I took on USBR 41 since no one
volunteered. Unlike USBR 90 in Arizona, I cannot run out and check the
route.  I have listed several issues that remain and a discussion with
Steve. Some are new paths that opened in 2017. Since it is summer time I am
wondering if any one can head up to parts of the route in Minnesota were
the issues are located and run some sort of survey: GPS, Mapillary,
OpenStreetCam, or what not.  Feel free to work on the issues.

Regards,
Greg

This link is also in the route relation.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/idtfhretq0urelu/AADNm6RwNePgBHKkKZphkYMja?dl=0

 > Missing area.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6708256#map=16/45.
1557/-92.9925=C

Huh, I really don't know what to do here!  I've had it happen where the
state (like the Department of Natural Resources or State Parks) quickly put
in some paved cycleway "in the middle of nowhere" and stitched it in with
the DOT so it got into the route, but Bing is still a long way from
catching up.  Sometimes it can be "guessed" (I've only done that once,
where it was clearly going to be a straight line) but I usually leave in a
gap, as you did here.  We do our best with what we have, though sometimes
despite our honest efforts, it just doesn't add up to 100%.

> There is a new path that I cannot see.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6708256#map=18/45.
51214/-92.97881=C

Yup, sometimes a route's data is newer than existing OSM, Bing
aerial/satellite or other data.

> Gap
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6708256#map=14/46.
7875/-92.0941=C

Ditto.

> The ASHTO turn by turn is different than the route board that you
provided in the relation.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6708256#map=15/46.
7414/-92.1520=C
> https://www.dot.state.mn.us/bike/usbr41/docs/route-board.pdf

Very odd:  I couldn't connect to that host!  It just hung like their 'net
is down.  I'll try this later.

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6708256#map=12/47.
2008/-91.3462=C

I don't think there is a better method to complete this as you did by
leaving the Gitchi-Gami State Trail in place.  I mean, there are two major
trail crossings (of highway MN 61) in Gooseberry Falls State Park where
Superior Hiking Trail crosses, (and another trail perhaps 50 m south):
which is a better place for USBR 41 to "cross and connect" to Gitchi-Gami?
I don't know.  Again, I think you've "done your best" and nobody can ask
for more than that!

> There is a path described in the turn by turn that I cannot see.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6708256#map=15/47.
9562/-89.6905=C

It may be that a new road/cycleway/path that is not now in OSM needs to be
added.  As neither of us knows that, we can't add it, so we're stuck with
"as best as you might do," once again.

Many and huge thanks for all of your clearly dedication and work on this!
How "done" might we call this?  99%  99.5%?  That seems about right without
the Gitchi Gami but if you exclude that maybe 97% or 98%.
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Re: [Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 113, Issue 10

[Greg Morgan]

On Apr 6, 2017 12:25 PM, "Mark Bradley"  wrote:

> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 15:56:02 -0700
> From: Charlotte Wolter 
> To: Bill Ricker ,Talk-US@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Response from TIGER about "driveways


Somewhat in a similar vein, as a native American English speaker, I have
wondered if it would be desirable for the editors to contain a feature that
would pop up a suggestion or warning, while tagging with an American
English word or phrase, which would specify the British English
equivalent.  Or maybe there's a wiki page that lists some common
equivalents?  Even more basic, is it stated anywhere in the wiki that
British English terms are to be used?  I know that's the policy, but I


All that I have seen are notes and warnings in various pages such as kerb.
I think JOSM covers this issue with preset warnings, "tag is not in
presets."

*Note:* As a policy OSM uses British English
 terms for most tags in
preference to North American English
. In this case kerb
rather than curb.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:kerb
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Re: [Talk-us] Osmar and Ways

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Erik MARONEY, IEA 
wrote:

> To whom it may concern,
>
>
>
> My name is Erik Maroney and I work for the International Energy Agency
> (IEA).  We are interested in using Open Street Map (OSM) for our road
> infrastructure projections.  We have had a couple of issues so far that we
> are confused about.
>
>
>
> 1)   Using R, we set the source to API and downloaded osm.  It seems
> as if some of the roads mapped on the OSM website aren’t being caught by
> osmar (the R package), which interfaces with osmosis (the command line
> tool). Could this perhaps be an issue with the bounding box, or is there
> some other reason why not all the roads are being captured? Any assistance
> with this issue would be very helpful!
>
> 2)  Using the Geofabrik database, it seems all the highways are not
> fully captured, is this just due to missing data?  Because when we go to
> the OSM website, we see plenty of other roads.  This is also true when we
> use the bounding box API method.
>
>
>
> Ultimately, the mismatch between the roads (especially highways and
> non-urban roads) mapped directly on OSM versus those we are able to
> download with R is our point of concern. Specifically we would like to come
> up with an automated way to capture all roads that service motorized
> vehicles within certain countries.
>
>
>
>
> The QuadTiles[1] may provide a visual for your potential bounding box
issue.  The area to look at is the intersection of a line and a tile[2].
Depending on your bounding box, you could miss a road if the nodes are in
other areas but the road still runs through your bounding box.  You may
have to use a more detailed configuration for your work.[3]

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/QuadTiles
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/QuadTiles#Indexing_tile_intersections
[3] https://switch2osm.org/
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Re: [Talk-us] Sabotage or a really bad bot?

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:56 PM, Charlotte Wolter <techl...@techlady.com>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Looks like, given Paul's information, that I just have to go in and
> correct as many as I can.
> This is an occasional issue with TIGER data. Somehow, when an
> address is located at the end of a driveway, especially long driveways,
> the driveway is given the street name. It may be a thing with TIGER
> software. Having worked on the Census, I know they create streets by
> marking a GPS point for every address. So, somehow the processing of
> the information they get, driveways become streets.
> I'll keep working on it.
>

I think that you are doing the wrong thing here.  The data came from the
Virgina to Census as is.  It is not like the Census made a mistake here.
That's how the jurisdiction maps their area.  To remove the street names or
the driveways is wrong for the area.  I make my statements based on the
prior version.  Dave Hansen brought those driveways as the were.  The
bot-mode expanded a the names and removed moved a few Tiger tags.  You'll
have remove the names from a larger portion than just Rustburg. I don't
think that you are being respectful of the local customs by imposing your
jurisdictions customs on their area.

Regards,
Greg Morgan
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Re: [Talk-us] An actual mini roundabout!

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Rihards  wrote:

> On 2016.12.09. 00:44, Elliott Plack wrote:
> > You mean these things aren't?pasted1
>
> no. here the road is physically making a circle, and you cannot cross
> the middle section - it should be mapped as a separate way, not a single
> node.
>

A long time ago with Potlatch 1, I would not have been able to make these
separate ways.  Thinking back to those days, I like it when knew mappers
use the mini_roundabout to mark the area shown by Elliot.  When I get a
chance, I expand these nodes to a separate way.  I make sure that I keep
the node as apart of the new separate way for history's sake.   I do the
same for mappers that mark a swimming pool with one node.  It gives me a
chance to build on other mapper's work in a positive way.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Help HOT give 10 communities the resources to map!

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:47 PM, john whelan  wrote:

Context please?  I have no idea what you are talking about.

One of the problems with giving aid is only about a tenth of the money
> given is used in the way one would hope.
>
> Probably the most pressing problem in Africa at the moment is corruption
> and in many ways aid doesn't help this particular problem.
>
> Mapping in OSM is way to assist without fear that the funds will be
> diverted.
>
> Money given by government agencies stands a little more chance that the
> aid will get through although there is always the temptation to say it must
> be shipped on ships from the donor country or must be spent on goods from
> the donor country.
>
> Given that HOT Inc exists in the US and given the USA culture, who else
> could elect Donald, I think we can expect them to present themselves in
> this manner.
>
> Whilst I would hope that requirements and benefits can be presented I'm
> not sure that this is in the US tradition.  Given the attention span of the
> target audience again is it worth the effort to HOT Inc?  Should the
> message have been restricted to those with a US address?
>
> If I'm cynical then the task manager has been very effective.  The
> training group has identified problem areas and come up with solutions.
> However HOT is not just HOT Inc there are many people involved in creating
> maps and the tools used.  Germany is home to many of them.   The OSM wiki
> contains much wisdom, the page I'm thinking of was put together by a
> Canadian, well a Québécois which is practically the same.
>
> I'd like to see two slots on the most urgent slots in tasks reserved for
> projects that are run by OSM groups in affected areas to give some sort of
> recognition to the work they are doing.  If nothing else they're learning
> project management skills that they can apply elsewhere.
>
> In sum HOT Inc probably deserves some support but on transparency I think
> it could do better.
>
>
> ​Note to Severin I trimmed the posted message down to fit under the 40k
> character limit for osmf and talk osm then reposted.  The original was
> posted on the HOT mailing list.
>
> Cheerio John
>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Pic4Carto: efficient pictures viewer for micro-mapping

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:43 AM, PanierAvide  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> There are more and more street-view pictures which are under open license
> (Mapillary, Wikimedia Commons, Flickr, and OpenStreetView which is changing
> its name). These pictures are a gold mine containing a lot of interesting
> informations for OpenStreetMap, however they are not fully used yet. Maybe
> one explanation of this is that every source has its own web portal, not
> always simple to use or fast to load.
>
> In order to get the best of all pictures, I created a tool to help mappers
> named Pic4Carto. It allows to see all recent pictures from Mapillary,
> Flickr and Wikimedia Commons, on a given area, as a slideshow (pictures
> showing one by one automatically). The goal is to watch fast all the data
> on the area, to discover features we want to add in OpenStreetMap (for
> example benches, fire hydrants, billboards, maxspeed signs...). The tool is
> available here :
>
> http://projets.pavie.info/pic4carto/
>
> PanierAvide,

That's very nice.  Your system takes 100 pounds of pain out of using
Mapillary.  There seems to be a few missing items but I cannot put my
finger on them.  The simplicity is Pic4Carto's best feature.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging karaoke bars?

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Andrew Wiseman  wrote:

> Anybody know the best practice to tag it? I was thinking just tagging as a
> bar (or restaurant, or whatever) then adding karaoke=yes , which seems to
> be somewhat common on Taginfo, 166 uses.
>
I'd favor your bar; karaoke=yes idea.  I would look for the bar by name
before the karaoke feature. You'd think that karaoke would have died by
now. But all you have to do is mix in being shnokered with any activity and
it would be the best night of your life.
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Re: [Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 108, Issue 18

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Valerie Anderson <
vale...@andersongeospatial.com> wrote:

> Hello talk-us!
>
>
> This is the area in question: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#
> map=13/28.2929/-81.2331
>
> I'm wondering why this building that I input into OSM:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/405322404 thinks that it's in New Eden (
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/
> node/154079502) and not Narcoossee (http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/
> 154104172). New Eden and Narcoossee are two nearby hamlets
> (unincorporated cities). The mailing address of the building is in Saint
> Cloud, the closest incorporated city to the building that's in the same
> county. I entered the tag addr:hamlet=Narcoossee yet when you search for
> the address in the search bar it says Building 2886, Absher Road, New Eden,
> Osceola County, Florida (http://www.openstreetmap.org/
> search?query=2886%20absher%20rd#map=20/28.33281/-81.19943=H).
>
> Why?
>
> Valerie,

You did everything correctly as far as OSM data entry goes.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/405322404
You are seeing the "value added" features of the OpenStreetMap Nominatim
service.  The service uses additional GIS boundaries besides OSM data for
the search results.  Hence, "Building 2886, Absher Road, New Eden, Osceola
County, Florida, 34771-9208, United States of America".

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] MassGIS Road Import - Lanes

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 2:30 AM, Greg Morgan <dr.kludge...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't live there but Mapillary user marc has nice coverage for some of
> the roads in question[1].  I am _guessing_ that a formula was developed
> based on the width value that Massgis had in their data. Looking at
> Mapillary while in JOSM, it almost looks like there is a one off error or a
> condition in one area of Massachusetts did not apply to another area of
> Massachusetts.  Again these are just guesses!  If you look at Massachusetts
> Avenue via JOSM/Mapillary, the street looks like lanes = 2 except for a
> turning lane here and there.
>
>
Oh! Oh!  I forgot to add, thank you for the mappers that imported Massgis.
  I'd rather have a usable map with street names and actual streets than a
map of perfect emptiness.  We has a wonderful useful map verses areas full
of "here be dragons".[2]



> Massachusetts Avenue
> width = 18.9; lanes = 3
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8615119
>
> Hancock Street
> width = 12.2; lanes = 2
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8615674
>
> width = 7.6; lanes = 1
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8614912
>
> [1] https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/marc?lat=42.
> 382047952522356=-71.18021987120689=12.90517848549394=map=
> L9nOys_VqYuhOjcZ0Z9I9A
>
> [2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons




> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Spencer Gardner <
> spencergard...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is anyone on here familiar with the process that was used to upload
>> MassGIS road data for the state of Massachusetts? I'm noticing a lot of
>> incorrect lane information on one-way residential streets and wondering if
>> the bulk import process could be the cause. I'd love to hear if anyone else
>> has come across this.
>>
>> For reference, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8615602
>>
>> I haven't scoured the rest of the state, but Cambridge is riddled with
>> one-way residential streets that all have lanes=2 when there's clearly only
>> a single travel lane.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
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>>
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Re: [Talk-us] MassGIS Road Import - Lanes

[Greg Morgan]

I don't live there but Mapillary user marc has nice coverage for some of
the roads in question[1].  I am _guessing_ that a formula was developed
based on the width value that Massgis had in their data. Looking at
Mapillary while in JOSM, it almost looks like there is a one off error or a
condition in one area of Massachusetts did not apply to another area of
Massachusetts.  Again these are just guesses!  If you look at Massachusetts
Avenue via JOSM/Mapillary, the street looks like lanes = 2 except for a
turning lane here and there.

Massachusetts Avenue
width = 18.9; lanes = 3
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8615119

Hancock Street
width = 12.2; lanes = 2
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8615674

width = 7.6; lanes = 1
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8614912


[1]
https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/marc?lat=42.382047952522356=-71.18021987120689=12.90517848549394=map=L9nOys_VqYuhOjcZ0Z9I9A

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Spencer Gardner 
wrote:

> Is anyone on here familiar with the process that was used to upload
> MassGIS road data for the state of Massachusetts? I'm noticing a lot of
> incorrect lane information on one-way residential streets and wondering if
> the bulk import process could be the cause. I'd love to hear if anyone else
> has come across this.
>
> For reference, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8615602
>
> I haven't scoured the rest of the state, but Cambridge is riddled with
> one-way residential streets that all have lanes=2 when there's clearly only
> a single travel lane.
>
> Thanks
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Mappers in Idaho!

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 11:49 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> I wanted to chime in my great enthusiasm for Greg Morgan helping or
> leading a good, chunky data effort in OSM like this.  Greg took on the USBR
> 90 effort in Arizona, hundreds and hundreds of miles of bicycle route, now
> very well entered in OSM and AASHTO-approved.  It took him weeks, but it
> would take anybody weeks or months, and he did a fantastic job.
>
> Greg was like a co-pilot, taking his responsibilities very seriously,
> using Mapillary to super effect, asking excellent questions, taking the
> small amount of direction required very well and just being all-around a
> top-notch communicator and team member.  If you have any interest in this
> Idaho project, notice that below, Greg offers to lead the effort!  So,
> listen up and throw your shoulder in with him and watch wonderful things
> happen in OSM with Greg at the helm.  Collaborating with him is like an
> enjoyable adventure!
>
> Regards,
> SteveA
> California
>
>
Steve,

Thanks for the kind words.  August was consumed with other activities than
OSM. At Elliot Plack's prompting a github repo was established.[1]  There
are a number of data questions that have come up.  Just like the USBR 90
project in Arizona where I established a relationship with the state
bicycle coordinator, I am using a similar approach with this effort. Teton
Idaho has been thankful for a few questions that I have brought up.  I sent
off additional questions this morning.  In addition, the repo has
educational qualities to it.  I believe that will be far more important
than just shoving the data into OSM.

Regards,
Greg


[1] https://github.com/osmlab/teton-idaho
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Re: [Talk-us] Deleting / Closing / Renaming all places in a chain

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 09/06/2016 11:01 PM, Elliott Plack wrote:
> > Should we launch an automated edit, or some kind of batch process on OSM
> > to clear the database `name=ITT Tech` (or similar) worldwide?
>

For one I had to go looking for the story.
http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/us-world-news/202562451-story
The for-profit college chain ITT Technical Institute is shutting down all
130 of its U.S. campuses, saying Tuesday it can't survive recent sanctions
by the U.S. Department of Education...


>
> This is a discussion that has happened in the past when Domino's Pizza
> has rebranded, or when the "Schlecker" drug store chain closed in Germany.
>
> I think automated edits are not a good solution mainly for two reasons:
>
> 1. In many cases, the world doesn't change instantly at the behest of
> some guy in marketing or legal. Individual locations might retain their
> signage for various reasons and we map what's on the ground,
>

Not around here.  They pop out the plastic and replace it with the new
company's name.  If it takes awhile for a new company to replace the old
company, then they flip the plastic over to save costs.  This isn't like
the days when bespoke signs were created for every business.
http://mapillary.com/map/im/LCodN7YJMEPKKlRnf2eLxw


>
> 2. If a chain is renamed or closed country-wide, and this change is not
> reflected on OSM in one area, then this can be a valuable sign for lack
> of mapper attention. A sign that has the best user interface of all:
> Because for any map user, dealing with an outdated map is normal, and
> the way you identify just *how* outdated something is is exactly by
> looking at such things: "Ah, this map seems to be from a time then
> Domino's was still called Domino's Pizza!" - Leaving these valuable
> markers of outdated-ness in place tells the map user that this area
> hasn't been touched for a while and that the other POIs in the vicinity
> are likely also a bit aged. When a local mapper touches up the area they
> will likely also update other things than just the closed-down shop, and
> then the map will be current again. Automatically editing away something
> country-wide hides the fact that the map lacks attention in an area.


Frederik you are thinking about this from a dense mapper perspective.
Germany has 89 million people in the same are as Montana that only has one
million people.  You are talking about one way to map if you have that
kind-of population that you can create a large mapper population from.  I
already know much of my area needs updating.  The problem is that I cannot
get to it and the transient nature of the area doesn't mean that I can go
out and build an OSM community here.  Automated edits like this by another
mapper would be a great addition to the work I already do in an area.  As
another perspective, I typically don't put in POIs like this unless I visit
them.  My area was one of the ground zeros for the sub-prime rate debacle.
I'll put in an address on a building before I will put in a POI.  Business
just don't stay around like they used to. I laugh snort when I read that
wiki page about armchair mapping.  I am in the top 50 worldwide Mapillary
submissions.  You think I can go out there and survey every node before I
put it in OSM. That's jsut not going to happen. You think that I even know
about changes like the ITT story.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=33.263809986326706=-111.81125590160123=8.272711628984965
 Woot! Woot!

Elliot, I'd say go for the change.  You are only going to __potentially__
remove 130 names from OSM objects.  Better yet, rename the name to a note
tag, with an explanation that the place was shutdown because of sanctions.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Freeway exit tagging

[Greg Morgan]

> mapping the road markings seems extremely strange - what if they are very
> faded, when do we map them ? is there a threshold of % of the paint left ?
> what is there are no road markings but there are signs ?

I encouraged MapBox to add some of their workflow information to the
wiki page.[1] The MapBox team will be the first to tell you that they
may not get things right.  However, I'd rather follow their lead right
now because they are making an effort to improve navigation.

I don't see how the questions help with the discussion.  I believe
that you are asking questions for something that does not exist.
1.The sun beats down on asphalt.  That's why I mark a road as
surface=asphalt and not surface=paved.  Asphalt handles so much
differently than concrete.  Up north water seeps into the cracks and
freezes.  This process generates frost heaves, where potholes form in
the road.  Down here in the land of the sun, the cracks are filled
with tar until the point of no return sets in just like frost
heaves.[2] The street feels like you are driving on cobble stones.
2.A pavement profiler comes in and removes the asphalt near the
sidewalk so there is less of a bump.  At this point, the picture shows
that the new asphalt was laid down.  Note the appropriate safety
signs.[3]
3.Days later there's a new glassy smooth road with new lane lines.[4]
I don't even bother adding construction tags when a road is being
resurfaced.  It is over and done too quickly to bother with.

> do we remove those tags during the winter in some regions ?
The tags stay the same in both good and bad conditions.  You have
drifted into hyperbole at this point. In the snow filled north and the
sunny south, these are still usable roads.  It would be useful to know
that there are three lanes on a snow packed street when only one is
drive-able.  The lane count and turn lanes are also useful knowledge
when the freeway is flooded and you are looking for an alternate
because the street ahead has only two lanes functional piled high with
freeway traffic.[5][6]

I would rather attempt to add the information for routing rather than
have no data.  NINO is far worse than the alleged GIGO.  The community
needs to let mappers attempt to understand the problem and improve
upon the knowledge or tagging.  My eyes glazed over when I looked at
the wiki page. I found sanity to the MapBox workflow.[1]

[1] 
https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/wiki/Mapping-guide-for-turn-lanes-from-imagery
[2] http://mapillary.com/map/im/AwRbJa0dDr_RSnnjteTTFA
[3] http://mapillary.com/map/im/i40PBdYRIMs7vHttf_SiZg
[4] http://mapillary.com/map/im/ZUvJ4et2qVGLC8JJDl43CQ
[5] http://mapillary.com/map/im/AbmqIXz9Wi0EQMoLLiSLyg
[6] http://mapillary.com/map/im/QHY4gXilNHH2yyp9PEInlA

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Re: [Talk-us] Mappers in Idaho!

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Martijn van Exel
 wrote:
> To add to the confusion created by me: someone pointed out that there is in
> fact a Teton County in both Idaho and Wyoming. The person I have been in
> touch with is from the Teton Co. in Idaho. So no Jackson Hole or Grand Teton
> NP there, but the eclipse still passes and you have almost just as awesome a
> view of the Tetons from the west..At a fraction of the cost :)
>
> But...Anyone want to map? Look at all this stuff that's not in OSM yet :)

Ha! Ha!  I looked at the data last night because I drove through the
area on I-15 in early February...well it was near by Teton Idaho.
Then in May of this year I drove through Wyoming...well it was near by
Teton Wyoming.  I am familiar with both areas.  I left a Mapillary
trail in both cases. There are only 11K addresses in the dbf file.  I
don't know how many foot prints are in the data, yet.  What I thought
about is that the US community could use the data as an example of how
to process the data for an import.  There are a number of questions in
the data and a template can be developed with a project like this. Oh!
 I won't be standing in line.  I will would be happy to lead the
effort.  I wanted to make sure that no one else had called dibs yet.
I was thinking that GIS school projects or, say, maptime kind-of
groups might want to join in as part of a tasking effort. The tasks
can be made small enough that they won't overwhelm a new mapper or
won't require a large time expenditure for an experienced mapper.

Before anyone pipes up about damage to a local community because of an
import, there's none.  On said I-15 trip, I stopped in Beaver Utah for
the night.[1]  In one feel swoop of a change set several days later, I
got to stand on the shoulders of giants: I modified nodes touched by
Dave Hansen, Balrug-kun, and NE2.  The area had not been worked since
the early days of the US project.  The local Beaver paper said that
the community was more worried about Boy Scout badges, a fire that
ruined a home, and the like. The great open places[2] like Top Of The
World [3] are more important than a mapathon.

Regards,
Greg

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/38.25104/-112.64784
[2] 
https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/drkludge?lat=44.9747045=-109.4556432=17=TkS55trFermdh6Dx2sf5Jg=photo=true
[3] 
https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/drkludge?lat=44.9427626001=-109.5602966=17=cY_TJx1nQONQeF32AxXRYw=photo=true

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 5:04 AM, Marc Gemis <marc.ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Greg Morgan <dr.kludge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> look at the recent turn lane work that MapBox is performing. They
>> have done a wonderful job of finding issues and developing use cases
>> for the rest of the community.  Far worse than the alleged GIGO of
>> this import is the NINO.  Without out MapBox's activity we would not
>> have a well developed definition of turn lanes.  Without sideway data
>> mapped and worked on, we'll get no where with these kinds-of
>> discussions.  I look forward to see what the Washington community will
>> find.  I am still working out details of my sidewalk edits.  I'd like
>> to build on the Washington data that will be developed.
>> https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/wiki/Mapping-guide-for-turn-lanes-from-imagery
>> https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/wiki/QA-for-turn-lane-data
>
> Huh ? The German community had turn:lane mapping as a week project
> (don't take  that too literally) back in November 2014. Thousands of
> turn lanes have been added in the months after the idea was launched
> in "DACH" (Germany, Switserland & Austria). I had been mapping
> hundreds of them in Belgium since spring 2014, all based on the JOSM
> style developed by Martin Vonwald.
> Please do not make it sound like Mapbox pushed turn:lane mapping
> forward. Maybe this is true for the US, but not for Western Europe.
> OsmAnd has turn lane navigation since the summer of 2015.

In 2014 turn:lane mapping was not on my radar.  I have not used
OsmAnd. I had/have no clue of your activity until now.  In the last
six years I have often turned to Western Europe for examples but
turn:lane mapping has not been one of them. What MapBox has pushed
forward is excellent documentation and published it in such a way that
the documentation was clear and drew my interest.  Moreover, what
really caught my eye is how the Portland community responded to a
mistake during the mapping process.  The Portland community did not
call in the DWC to break both of the mapper's knee caps with a
baseball bat.  The issue was repaired and the community moved forward.

Regards,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Greg Morgan]

> Again this seems to be is the "I'm waiting for someone else to do something"
> line.  If you want a map rendering that shows stop signs, create one, like I

I am not standing in any line.  If I find an issue that I don't think
has been addressed or the original author did not understand is an
issue, then I file a bug report to the best my abilities.  That
doesn't mean I have to pick up the language and supply the patch.  The
way that open source works is that you don't always have to be the
coder.  Besides I would put up Butt ugly tiles that only a mother
would dare hang on her fridge and be proud of.  Then again, Tiles At
Home was Butt ugly and effective for mappers to see there changes.
https://github.com/openstreetview/josm-plugin/issues/2
https://github.com/openstreetview/uploader/issues/5

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Meg,
>
>sidewalk tagging in OSM is a complex issue. The fact that sidewalks
> are not tagged as individual geometries is not purely a shortcoming,  it
> is a compromise that keeps OSM data editable. Having individual
> geometries for every single sidewalk on the planet will not only
> massively increase the data volume but also require new and better tools
> for editing, e.g. moving the geometry of a street without having to move
> three parallel lines manually and so on.
>
> There have been several local imports of sidewalk data that were removed
> again because lack of prior discussion and/or because they were
> single-purpose imports that did not care about integration with the rest

I don't see how that is relevant here since Meg is engaging in a conversation.

> of OSM (for example: what should rendering engines do with sidewalks;

Again relevance:  I am still waiting for a stop sign to be rendered a
year after it was requested. If we wait until a stop sign gets all
artsie and fartsie, then it will never be rendered and it will never
be mapped or shall I say mappers will become uninterested without a
reward for their efforts.  We deny one stop light towns the pleasure
of seeing something happen on the map.  We need this kind of data
before the renders can even have some use cases to work from.
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1683


> how do they integrate with normal footways; how is a sidewalk linked to
> the road along which it runs so that routing engines can say "follow
> sidewalk along XY road" instead of "follow unnamed footway"; how can
> routing and rendering use individual sidewalks and still gracefully fall
> back to another method where these are not defined, and so on).
>
> People are experimenting with different ways of mapping sidewalks.
> Under no circumstances should you perform an import that creates facts
> before your proposal for separate mapping of sidewalks has been
> discussed more widely.

I look at the recent turn lane work that MapBox is performing. They
have done a wonderful job of finding issues and developing use cases
for the rest of the community.  Far worse than the alleged GIGO of
this import is the NINO.  Without out MapBox's activity we would not
have a well developed definition of turn lanes.  Without sideway data
mapped and worked on, we'll get no where with these kinds-of
discussions.  I look forward to see what the Washington community will
find.  I am still working out details of my sidewalk edits.  I'd like
to build on the Washington data that will be developed.
https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/wiki/Mapping-guide-for-turn-lanes-from-imagery
https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/wiki/QA-for-turn-lane-data

Thank you Meg.

Regards,
Greg

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=crossing tags removed in changeset.

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 6:26 AM, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> On 19/07/2016 14:01, Greg Morgan wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:38 AM, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Two wrongs don't make a right.
>>
>> And yet you persist at your war.

>
>
>>We are an open
>> source project that should be building on each other's work.  I agree
>> that the tagging is wrong in the original and the change.  I disagree
>> with how you are handling the situation.  The better way forward is
>> not a revert the change but to change the tagging to highway=crossing;
>> crossing=unmarked;
>
>
> How do you know they're unmarked?
>

The long story short is that there is a node that is tagged that can
be built upon.  Even with the current tagging that Wynnham added or
removed, there is a node to build upon.  Add just the FIXME tag to the
current tagging. I don't care. The big sledge hammer approach to your
fellow mapper is what I care about.


> Reverting will reinsert the highway=crossing to all tags in one go.
>
>> FIXME=Please adjust this crossing by adding other
>> tags or changing the crossing tag.
>
>
> That's the same as asking on Talk-gb for users to check which, I suspect,
> will have a higher hit rate.

Right to the end you have this precision that no one else can match.
Look at all the energy that you spent on correctness and continue to
do so.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=crossing tags removed in changeset.

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:38 AM, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> On 16/07/2016 07:20, Greg Morgan wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Alejandro S. <alejandro...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Looks like somebody making automated edits without checking by survey
>>> what
>>> they are doing...
>>>
>>> I think it should be reverted.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>Alejandro Suárez
>>
>>
>> 4.) Edit 7, the edit under dispute, Wynndale removes the
>> highway=crossing tag following the first sentence of the wiki page and
>> the rest of the paragraph.
>>
>
> I think you're putting to much importance on the wiki & not enough about
> what's on the ground.
> Wynndale to an incorrect tag & made it worse (to correct it the removed tag
> would have to be re-added & then crossing=no removed.
>
> The geographic spread strongly implies he didn't have local knowledge for
> them all.
>
>> So how about coaching the mapper verses reverting the changeset or
>> making an allegation.
>
>
> He's made over 1400 edits since 2009.
>
>>   Even the original tagging is wrong.
>
>
> Two wrongs don't make a right.

And yet you persist at your war.

>
>> Why would
>> you want to revert a change that is right based on the wiki to
>> something that is wrong to begin with?
>
>
> Because it's wrong with what's in the real world. I'm proposing to revert
> this changeset & then ask on Talk-gb if those local to the amendments can
> clarify what is the correct tagging to use.

NO!  I am putting the emphasis on the bullying that is going on in the
community under the guise of correctness.  You took it upon yourself
to allege an automated edit in the talk on the change set.  Now you
brought your war here.  You want to roll back someone's work just
because you think you are right yet you cannot say that you have
surveyed the ground either.  That's my objection!  We are an open
source project that should be building on each other's work.  I agree
that the tagging is wrong in the original and the change.  I disagree
with how you are handling the situation.  The better way forward is
not a revert the change but to change the tagging to highway=crossing;
crossing=unmarked; FIXME=Please adjust this crossing by adding other
tags or changing the crossing tag.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=crossing tags removed in changeset.

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Alejandro S.  wrote:
> Hi,
> Looks like somebody making automated edits without checking by survey what
> they are doing...
>
> I think it should be reverted.
>
> Kind regards,
>   Alejandro Suárez

Alejandro,

Did you even read the change history of any nodes such as node
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/729984457/history or consult the
tagging page on the subject before you making the allegation that this
was an automated edit?
"crossing=no Where definitely no crossing is possible/legal. This tag
must be used without a highway=crossing, so data consumers only
evaluating the high-level highway tag are not mislead into assuming a
crossing here.
As crossing=no excludes the existence of a crossing, the combination
of highway=crossing and crossing=no is invalid.
Thus, if there is a place where one would expect a crossing but where
is definitely no crossing, you may tag this with crossing=no but
without highway=crossing.

It is obvious from the history and experience with Josm's noisy
validator that his is not an automated edit.   Wynndale was merely map
gardening.  The obvious change for this node is highway=crossing and
crossing=unmarked.  I say that because of the two lane looking cycle
way that crosses the road.  crossing=no may have been UniEagle's
attempt at crossing=unmarked.
1.) Edit 1 5/11/2010 NaN135709 adds the node at the crossing.
2.) Edits 2 to 5 from 6/29/2011 to 4/22/2014 all have the missing
crossing information.
3.) Finally on edit 6 on 4/22/14 roughly four hours after edit 5
UniEagle adds highway=crossing and crossing=no.  And when we look at
the wiki diff history, we can defend UniEagle's decision because there
wasn't much information at the time.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Acrossing=revision=1012147=963951
4.) Edit 7, the edit under dispute, Wynndale removes the
highway=crossing tag following the first sentence of the wiki page and
the rest of the paragraph.

The better option follows on the next sentence of wiki:
"crossing=unmarked A crossing without road markings or traffic lights"

So how about coaching the mapper verses reverting the changeset or
making an allegation. Even the original tagging is wrong.  Why would
you want to revert a change that is right based on the wiki to
something that is wrong to begin with?  How about clarifying the wiki
page before accusing someone of an automated edit?  How about let's
congratulate Wynndale on a brave attempt at map gardening in such a
hostile environment?

Regards,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-us] Restoring bus routes in Portland

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Peter Dobratz  wrote:
> Luckily, I saved a link to all of these bus routes on a wiki page as it's
> impossible to download a relation with zero members (unless you happen to
> know the ID):
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon/Transit_Route_Relations

Please let me know if you need additional help with the relationships.
It is unclear to me if this issue has been resolved or not.

You have done the hard work.  You have a handy list of relations.
I've been thinking of creating such lists for other highways and what
not.
If you don't want to hack and whack on an xml file, then you can also
do something like this.
1. ) Select the relation number that you are interested in and copy it
from your wiki page, control c.
 The only downside to your wiki page is that you used a name and
did not directly expose the relation number.
2..) In Josm menu bar>File>Down object...
3.) The dialog will show with the relation number already filled in.
4.) Pick any of the check box options in the dialog. You will have to
experiment depending on what you are mapping at the time.
 a.) Since you need to work with different layers pick
the"Separate layer" check box.
 b.) Uncheck the other two check boxes:  "Download referrers
(parent relations)" and "Download relation members".
5.) Next click the Download Object button.
6.) Another layer can be used to download the current state with the
steps above.
 Inside the relation editor is a "Download incomplete members"
button.  Use this to download all the ways or nodes in a relationship.
 Of course this is great for working on extending and existing
relationship.   I don't know if it will help you repair these
relationships.
I thought that I'd throw this out there for others.

These are the rules that I use when I am extending a relationship.
1.) You have to be careful because you cannot delete. The way or way
nodes may be connected to other parts of the map.
2.) In some node moves, you will have to download more data before
moving nodes.  That way you see other ways attached to the nodes.
3.) Deleting nodes also requires more data.  You have to see the whole
context with additional downloads of data.

Regards,
Greg

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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Does anyone have a contact at Craigslist [1]?  As you know they use data
> from OSM, but have their own rendering style.  Unfortunately it looks like
> at zoom level 16 and higher they render all streets as one way.  This
> reflects poorly on OSM.
>

People can do what they want with the OSM data.  I don't set it as a poor
reflection on OSM.  The problem is that the CL rendering style is just
looking at oneway=* without looking at the value.  CL is rendering
oneway=no as a oneway.  I'd report the issue as a rendering bug to CL and
leave out the reflection issue.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging National Forests

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 10:28 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> Bradley White  writes:
>
> Just to add my two cents, I do not think that "landuse=forest" should be
> tagged with national forest boundaries.
>
>
> I would like to be clear, here:  I USED TO believe this, as it was the
> “best practice” at the time, and so I DID tag like this.  But this was back
> in 2010-12 or so.  Meanwhile, the boundary=protected_area tag developed and
> evolved, and now I tag US National Forests with this (when I do) along with
> protect_class=6 (or protect_class=1b on Wilderness areas).  This is widely
> accepted in OSM in the USA.
>


> Yes, natural=wood is an important tag, as it really is distinct from
> landuse=forest:  the latter will have (or does have) trees being felled,
> the former simply will not.  OK, OK, maybe a natural=wood had trees felled
> “a long time ago” and so is second-growth (or third-growth).  I think OSM
> can live with that.  As long as the intention is for these trees to remain
> (uncut), and the entirety of the area (closed polygon) is essentially
> “treed,” I believe natural=wood is the correct tag.  I don’t need to have a
> degree in forestry (nor should I) to determine whether to tag natural=wood
> or landuse=forest.  Start with the former, and if you or someone else
> learns of or knows it to be timberland, change it to the latter.  I think
> that can suffice in 98% of the cases, and the other 2% can “be handled” as
> needed.
>
>
Perhaps the problem here is the multiple roles that the the US Forest
Service plays.   Note that that name is from the olden days.  Now the
service is know as the National Park Service.  I looked at the history of
some of these areas.  It looks like most of the tags, nodes, and ways were
configured seven years ago. One of the problems is trying to make sense of
the wiki pages because you bounce around.[1][2].

What does it mean to harvest or fell trees?  It doesn't always mean fresh
cut trees.  I remember skidding trees via a mule in a burn area.  The
rancher that I worked for had a permit to do so from the NPS.  I believe
one of the essential jobs now of the NPS is to cut down trees that were
damaged by beetles so that other trees are not infected.  Sure these trees
are not used to build a building though the standing dead fall may be used
for this purpose in some cases, but the wood makes great fire wood.

I've only casually looked at the protected tag via this discussion.
Perhaps it still applies to the historic preservation[3][4] efforts that
the NPS provides.  I also note at least for Arizona, the Arizona State
Parks department is responsible for forwarding documents to the NPS for the
national register.[5]  In the case of some of these sites, they feel more
like regular parks to me.[6][7]  I like the way Ian brought these over as
leisure=park especially in the case of Pipe Spring National Monument.  Also
note, federal studies must be provided for many construction projects.  I
don't know the exact reasons that would trigger such a study.  The desire
is to prevent additional lost of historic places.  These studies may add
some sites to the registry.

There appear to be problems with the idea of a park.  A park can be larger
than just a small area in a city. In the case of several Maricopa County
regional parks, some have been tagged as boundary=protected_area,
landuse=conservation, and leisure=nature_reserve starting five years
ago[8][9][10].  However, these areas are recreation areas and not protected
areas or conserved land that has been set aside so that moderate human
contact with the area.  These large Maricopa County parks are no different
than New York's Central Park.  I believe that leisure=park is more fitting
for these areas.

Finally, I always wondered why I thought forests outside of Arizona looked
so much greener than what is located here.  Two things dawned on me.  One,
the type of tree is so much different in Arizona compared to, say, a tall
pine tree in Colorado.  Two, there is little to no grass between the
trees.  Hence, some of these boundary=protected_areas in Arizona are
forests but not like the expectation of natural=wood or landuse=forest in
other parts of the country.  ;-)

Regards,
Greg


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:protect%20class?uselang=en-US
[2]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dprotected_area#Classification

[3] http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/heritage/
[4] https://www.nps.gov/nr/
[5] http://azstateparks.com/SHPO/

[6] https://www.nps.gov/pisp/planyourvisit/maps.htm
[7]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/359249951/history#map=17/36.86230/-112.73726

[8] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/100085359/#map=14/33.9250/-112.2644
[9] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/94849767#map=14/33.8300/-111.9998
[10] http://www.maricopacountyparks.net/assets/1/6/lake-pleasant-8x112.pdf
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Re: [Talk-us] Improving coverage of exit numbers and destinations on motorways

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:46 AM, Jinal Foflia  wrote:

> There has been a recent push to improve the coverage of exit numbers and
> destination signs on the motorways in the US by the data team at Mapbox.
> Some context here [1][2][3][4]. The primary sources of data were DoT
> documents and Mapillary images.
>
One of the first things that I mapped was exit numbers.  At least that
would provide some clue about the distance you have left or what not.  That
is a great first step but the focus is on urban mapping.  More important
for long distance driving or even navigation are mile markers.  The exit
numbers are tied to the mile markers.  The traffic engineer makes a
decision on an exit number based on the proximity of a mile marker. I have
added part of a press release[2] from Arizona DOT. Milepost/mile maker 346
is referenced.  Milepost/mile markers are far more valuable[1] but are not
rendered and thus have little value to an urban mapper or little reward for
the effort involved.  Also note that the exit numbers/mile makers for a
motorway will reset at state borders.  As I recall I-15 ends around 411 as
you enter Idaho.  Finally, expect gaps in the the exit numbers. Two or more
routes may share a section of the road for awhile until they diverge in
other directions.  Another case, is when the route is split by a city.  In
this case, a route might have run through a city at one time.

The work flow that you mention drive me batty.[0]  At one time there was a
discussion on the list about moving exit_to tags as destination tags on the
ramp.  I moved most of the exit_to tags that I mapped to the ramps.  Here
you are proposing something different by leaving some exit_to tags and
adding destination tags occasionally.  The batty part, is that the original
way I mapped these without exit_to was what I found in Europe. It looks
like Paul has a point because junction:ref is in the wiki page
that Duane cites. I don't know that you can use "does not look like
the x tagging
scheme is very common" or "we will continue to follow the conventional
tagging" when the wiki page has changes as recent as 9/2015.

I don't mind adding these features but there has to be something presented
on the main OSM maps other than another art project.  If you are looking
for mapper participation or encouraging passive users to become mappers,
then there has to be a reward on the main OSM site.  Otherwise, OSM has
developed the most boring video game that shows no lights nor rings any
bells.  It is the cartographers and not the importers that are killing off
mappers!

Regards,
Greg


[0] https://gist.github.com/poornibadrinath/f982a947c6a063ed1a9016a2d3246d4a
Look out for red outer circle for missing destination. Use open in JOSM
button to open the node in JOSM. Orange outer circle represents exit_to tag
and we don't need to add destination tags in the way. Green outer circle
represent that the concern way already has destination tag.

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3910143420

[2] Bridge work to close State Route 89 for four hours late Friday
Those traveling between Prescott and I-40 should consider alternate routes

PHOENIX ‒ State Route 89 will close for four hours approximately 13 miles
north of Chino Valley starting at 9 p.m. Friday, May 6, so crews can pour a
concrete bridge deck at Hell Canyon __(milepost 346).__ It’s one of the
final steps in readying a $14.4 million bridge scheduled to open to traffic
in mid-June.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou by 1-May 2016!

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> I'm slightly taken back by the number of people wanting to jump in and
> make decisions for a local community on a topic that has little bearing
> outside of their region.

...
>
>
> Simon


 Simon,

This is one of the most positive things that I've heard you say about
a local community deciding what to do!  Thank you.

The problem I have with both Christoph and Frederick statements from
Germany are that the comments have a feeling of not invented here and
more imperialism.  There is a smack of what's good for Germany is good
for everyone local mapping group out there.  Germany is about the size
of Montana USA.  Germany has a population of about 89 million people.
Montana has a population of around one million people.  Arm chair
mapping is perfectly good solution in this and many other cases.  The
whole meetup/pub mapping event just won't scale in areas like Montana.
I laugh when you want me to run out and GPS every node that I put on
the map where map density isn't there like in Germany.  Moreover,
there's this idea that consumer grade GPS devices are so much more
accurate compared to imagery.  What I have now is a _useful_ map using
all these tools regardless of their perceived accuracy.  Any way or
idea that builds upon the existing useful map is a great idea.

What I find interesting is that at least one of links shows Bénin
mappers using paper and pencil survey work.  It sounds like they want
better imagery to complement paper survey work with arm chair mapping.
Both types of mapping complement each other.  In both cases, errors
can be introduced into the map.  So what.  We are an Open Source
project with the idea of "release early and release often".  In
addition, OSM has a wonderful complement of tools to help correct any
mistakes.
https://projeteof.org/blog/crowdfunding-openstreetmap-au-benin-275km%C2%B2-dimagerie-satellite-haute-resolution-pour-cotonou-ce-1er-mai-2016/

When I read stories like this from MapBox...
"...And when we can make it better, we flag the area as a priority
collect. This creates a system where developers using the map SDK will
get the most updated imagery specifically where their users need it.
https://www.mapbox.com/blog/satellite-imagery-updates-telemetry/
...I get it.  MapBox is company that has to serve priority markets.
However, if all the the developers are in rich urban areas of the
world, then other areas may not see new imagery.  MapBox needs to pay
the bills to keep the lights on. MapBox may not be the solution in
this case.

>John, Ulule does not charge 40%, the fees reasonably amount to 7 or 8%, that's 
>a notable difference.
>If I donate $100 to a charity the net cost to me is $60 and $100 is more or 
>less available at the end.
> If I donate $60 to the crowdsourcing then $55 arrives at the end.  So if we 
> can get creative with a charity
> the money goes further.  Different western countries have different rules but 
> basically if it can be channeled
> through a charity more cash ends up on the ground.

So don't contribute to the crowdfunding effort.  Many businesses will
take something that was purchased for $50 and sell it for $100.  They
have to cover overhead and make a profit to stay in business. A loss
of $5 to overhead for $60 dollars sounds like a very efficient method
to channel funds to where it is needed.  For  example, I don't donate
to Unicef. I used to go around and collect pennies for that group when
I was young.  It was disturbing to find out that only one US cent of
each dollar actually made it to the children in need.  I don't know if
they improved their record from those days but in my case the damage
was done.  The crowd funding example that has been cited is not the
same kind-of overhead.

> nicolas chavent  wrote
> There is a local OSM group active in Benin since mid 2013,
> This group is skilled they got trained via (capacity building missions run
> by the collective Projet EOF) and had been always self training and growing
> their skills, growing their community and training Academic, Benin Red Cross
> Volunteers, Civil workers from local government, folks from the local tech
> scene etc...
> This group has a few equipments at hand,
> They share a co-working space (Blolab) in Cotonou with other tech actors,
> They have been active in their country (several places and various mapping
> project) and in Western Africa through regional 3 to 4 weeks long capacity
> building missions involving a lot of field and remote mapping work
> They operate mostly on a voluntary basis with low means and they grow their
> map and their community.
> They decided to crowdfund for these 275km2 high res imagery in Cotonou
> because this has been blocking them and that a few additional GPS Units will
> not make the difference, but this imagery will do!

 I don't see what the problem is.  Bénin mappers have already
performed an analysis of the problem.  I don't see why they cannot

Re: [Talk-us] Optimal / preferred checkin sizes

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Steve Friedl  wrote:

> Hi everybody,
>
>
>
> I spend way too much time in JOSM mapping my local area, but I’ve never
> really known how to best batch changes.
>
>
>
> Sometimes it’s obvious: if I work on a certain feature (say, adding
> details of fire stations), I add them and check them in one at a time, but
> sometimes I’m doing cleanup of a large area with no obvious breaking points.
>
>
>
> I don’t think that 3 square miles of road straightening ought to go in a
> single [enormous] batch, but I’m not sure that 100 entries of the form
> ‘Straightened Main Street in MyTown” / “Straightened Elm Street in MyTown”
> / “Straightened Euclid Steet in MyTown” is really adding any value.
>
>
>
> How does one decide how best to check stuff in?
>

The two words that say creativity is dead are "Best Practices".  In my
case, I don't care!  ;-)  Enjoy mapping.  If what you are mapping takes you
into a large area of work, then don't worry about it.  Part of my answer is
based on the density of mappers in my region and the US in general.  I've
been know to map for 12 hours in one change set.  I've had two conflicts in
six years.  Both of them were very odd and edge cases in my experience. I
have never thought about the size of the area that I map.  By all means
leave a change set comment.  You are communicating with other mappers. I
found that the change set comment is a frail thing.  It may not always
cover the mapping at hand regardless of the size of the area.  I will also
add note tags to features.  There are times where I cannot survey an area.
If there could be a question of why I made the change or why I split a way,
then the note tag becomes a mini comment about that decision.  It is also
another form of communication. I forgot who mentioned this on the list, but
if there is potential issue about a road that was removed because of
construction, then I will draw in a way and add a note tag explaining the
issue.  That way this whole pointless issue of arm chair mapping verses
survey mapping is removed from the joy of mapping!

Remember: have fun!  Mapping takes you into the spatial part of your
brain.  The logical side of your brain takes a rest.  That is the best part
of mapping.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] OSM attribution on website store locator pages

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Matt Simpson <m...@mag.cr> wrote:

> All - seaming to understand the intent of this thread and hoping to shed
> some light for you.
>
> Our team (MAGNETIC) was hired to design/develop the pieology website.
> Pieology also hired a company to build their store locator, which was
> outside our scope of work. The company they hired for store location
> services is Momentfeed (https://momentfeed.com/), seemingly a branch or
> distributor of Mobify, who looks to be using your service at the core of
> the location tool they provide.
>
> I would suggest contacting Momentfeed and/or Mobify to discuss
> attribution. As someone mentioned earlier, Pieology will have very little
> input on the matter.
>
> Hope this helps -
>
>
Matt,

Thank you for the response.  www.OpenStreetMap.org is a crowd sourced map
of the world. I love it that the Pieology site is using OSM.  There are a
number of other notable sites that are using OSM such as Craig's list
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/search/fua .  We are just trying to get to
the bottom of which firm should put the correct attribution on the Pieology
site.  I provided the CL map because it has the proper attribution.

Again thank you for the response.

Regards,
Greg




> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Greg Morgan <dr.kludge...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Martijn van Exel <m...@rtijn.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting, a bit troubling, to see an increasing number of layers —
>>> abstraction — between the end user and the OSM data. Now it’s three — the
>>> web site itself, Mobify (never heard of them), Mapbox —  between the end
>>> user and OSM. Makes it easier for all the intermediaries to point to the
>>> others for attribution requirements. And harder for the OSM community to
>>> enforce this simple but important requirement. OSM can only benefit from
>>> having many eyes on the map if we can continue to close this feedback loop.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> There is one more layer of abstraction: the design firm
>> http://www.magneticcreative.com/.  It seems that Magnetic Creative would
>> understand this issue.  They have their name in fine print at the bottom of
>> each page on the site.  Just as they want their name published for
>> potential clients, OpenStreetMap would like attribution for potential
>> future mappers.  I added their email to the list.  They would have to join
>> the list to respond, etc.  However, they should be able to pick up the
>> drift from this email chain.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> To my mind it’s on Mapbox to enforce attribution, I assume having this
>>> present on the map is in the terms they present to their customers?
>>>
>>> Martijn
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:31 AM, Fred Hillhouse <f.hillhouse...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Their tiles are coming from Mapbox. Who gets the attribution?
>>>
>>>
>>> http://b.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/dondeinc.i1021nhc/17/37433/50038.jpg70?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoiZG9uZGVpbmMiLCJhIjoiZ200QzN4dyJ9.KIhMqSmPUSn9Kru51GZT4g
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>> --
>>> *From:* Harald Kliems [mailto:kli...@gmail.com <kli...@gmail.com>]
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 8:08 AM
>>> *To:* Hans De Kryger; Peter Dobratz
>>> *Cc:* talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] OSM attribution on website store locator pages
>>>
>>> Might make more sense to directly contact Mobify as the map provider. I
>>> have suspicion Pieology will have no clue what you're talking about and
>>> wouldn't be able to fix it themselves anyway. Contact for mobify:
>>> http://www.mobify.com/contact/
>>>
>>>  Harald.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 1:10 AM Hans De Kryger <
>>> hans.dekryge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I see nothing on the entire site linking/mentioning osm. their emails
>>> i...@pieology.com if you want to contact them.
>>>
>>> *Regards,*
>>> *Hans*
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 9:08 PM, Peter Dobratz <pe...@dobratz.us> wrote:
>>> I'm seeing OSM data used more and more for generating the basemap onto
>>> which things like store location data is displayed on store websites.
>>> However, it's not always easy to find links to OSM attribution on such maps.
>>>
>>> Has an

Re: [Talk-us] OSM attribution on website store locator pages

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Interesting, a bit troubling, to see an increasing number of layers —
> abstraction — between the end user and the OSM data. Now it’s three — the
> web site itself, Mobify (never heard of them), Mapbox —  between the end
> user and OSM. Makes it easier for all the intermediaries to point to the
> others for attribution requirements. And harder for the OSM community to
> enforce this simple but important requirement. OSM can only benefit from
> having many eyes on the map if we can continue to close this feedback loop.
>
>


There is one more layer of abstraction: the design firm
http://www.magneticcreative.com/.  It seems that Magnetic Creative would
understand this issue.  They have their name in fine print at the bottom of
each page on the site.  Just as they want their name published for
potential clients, OpenStreetMap would like attribution for potential
future mappers.  I added their email to the list.  They would have to join
the list to respond, etc.  However, they should be able to pick up the
drift from this email chain.

Regards,
Greg







> To my mind it’s on Mapbox to enforce attribution, I assume having this
> present on the map is in the terms they present to their customers?
>
> Martijn
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:31 AM, Fred Hillhouse 
> wrote:
>
>
> Their tiles are coming from Mapbox. Who gets the attribution?
>
>
> http://b.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/dondeinc.i1021nhc/17/37433/50038.jpg70?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoiZG9uZGVpbmMiLCJhIjoiZ200QzN4dyJ9.KIhMqSmPUSn9Kru51GZT4g
>
> Fred
>
> --
> *From:* Harald Kliems [mailto:kli...@gmail.com ]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 8:08 AM
> *To:* Hans De Kryger; Peter Dobratz
> *Cc:* talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] OSM attribution on website store locator pages
>
> Might make more sense to directly contact Mobify as the map provider. I
> have suspicion Pieology will have no clue what you're talking about and
> wouldn't be able to fix it themselves anyway. Contact for mobify:
> http://www.mobify.com/contact/
>
>  Harald.
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 1:10 AM Hans De Kryger 
> wrote:
>
> I see nothing on the entire site linking/mentioning osm. their emails
> i...@pieology.com if you want to contact them.
>
> *Regards,*
> *Hans*
>
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 9:08 PM, Peter Dobratz  wrote:
> I'm seeing OSM data used more and more for generating the basemap onto
> which things like store location data is displayed on store websites.
> However, it's not always easy to find links to OSM attribution on such maps.
>
> Has anyone seen this?
>
> http://locations.pieology.com/
>
> There's a link to http://www.mobify.com/ in the lower-left corner, but I
> can't seem to find any links to http://www.openstreetmap.org/ anywhere on
> the page.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 101, Issue 10

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Mueller, Thomas <muel...@calu.edu> wrote:

> I am very sorry for my lack of communication.  Yes I am Tom Mueller.  I
> have a class called Introduction to Geography.  It is a class of 100
> students.  I offered my students an opportunity of extra credit if they
> completed 3 new buildings in their hometown (about 45 students took me up
> on this option.)  I had the students watch the MapGive video and they are
> submitting the screen shots to me.  I am asking students to make changes if
> there are problems.  I attempted this type of project about a year ago and
> did not have any problems.  I am sorry I was unaware that I needed to
> contact anyone.
>
I believe that black and white ink make this a challenge.  I think part of
the questions raised are how does the US OSM community assist a teacher
make a subject come alive like you are doing?  When I go out to map, I do
not have ask anyone before I start mapping.  Neither should you.  What you
are doing is no different than some of the Mapathon's that the US OSM
conduct.  You are attempting to guide these students just like what happens
at a Mapathon.  Moreover, you are mirroring what most of the data tell the
community, "A new mapper tends to create their first edit in their home
town."  You mentioned MapGive.  I have provided links to several
resources.  The first two are teaching resources.  The second two links are
safety nets.  Mapping is a human endeavor.  It is full of mistakes. These
last two resources show how US OSM as a community can come alongside your
efforts and repair any alleged damage. I would rather have these two tools
lit up with problems than a perfect map where new mappers are afraid to
touch the data.  The most important that you are showing is that you can
teach Geo/GIS concepts without standing up $100K of ESRI products to do
so.  The money can stay in the class room!

http://teachosm.org/en/
http://maptime.io/
http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?zoom=12=39.95356=-75.12364
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/

>
> If this is a problem, I will ask my students to stop.  I apologize.  I was
> using this extra credit as a test case for a bigger project in the fall
> semester .  However if this is causing a problem I will also not proceed.
>
>
> I tell you what, depending on what you need, there are plenty of projects
that I can provide you in Arizona. You are welcome to come to my hood as an
area for your larger project.  I would be happy to help out with your fall
semester in any way that I can. An example project might be one of the many
historic districts that are still not complete.  These are not full of old
1600 to 1800 buildings.  It is believed that the number of cheap building
material resources[1] along the Salt River and the post WWII boom made
these areas a special significance worthy of the US Parks preservation
efforts.

I can show you how I built on top of all the importers that have
contributed to the US OSM efforts.  Take a well forested area, then burn
off all the trees.  That is what I a desert is.  I have pieced together all
the dams and other support features in the Metro Phoenix area that are used
to control an area without a watershed.  There are still named
rivers/washes that can be added via tracing techniques.  Related to the
washes is the WWWII escape in Papago Park.  I am still trying to hunt down
where this memorial is
http://www.laurielundquist.com/_img/Swimming%20D/CC_6md.jpg.
http://www.laurielundquist.com/public_art_CC.html.

Please proceed.  There are many mappers cheering on your efforts.

Regards,
Greg Morgan


Brentwood Historic District
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/124871379#map=17/33.46098/-112.04512
[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.41555/-112.04048
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Re: [OSM-talk] RfD notification: Purge tag "priority" from tracks

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Roland Olbricht  wrote:

> Dear fellow mappers,
>
> we, the company Mentz, would like to fulfill a wish of the German
> community and change our former tagging of railway tracks.
>
> This constitutes a mechanical edit. Therefore, I would like to notify you
> that I have put a request for discussion on talk-transit@ .
> If you would like to discuss, please do so there.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dr. Roland Olbricht


Dr. Olbricht,

Thank you for publishing your intent.  I am coping the US Talk list because
a number of us rail fans in the US are looking at European tag models for
the vast railway network that we are piecing together.
http://www.openrailwaymap.org/ looks like the only way to show cases all
the features of rail changes. Will there be an impact to the railway map
too?

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] [BOT] [RFC]: water surfaces

[Greg Morgan]

Context Please!

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Frank Villaro-Dixon 
wrote:

> On 16-03-23 13:24:29, Andy Townsend, wrote 1.0K characters saying:
>
>> On 23/03/2016 12:22, Frank Villaro-Dixon wrote:
>>
>>> On 16-03-23 12:20:35, Andy Townsend, wrote 0.3K characters saying:
>>>
 On 23/03/2016 12:07, Frank Villaro-Dixon wrote:

> Again, that's not the goal if it. As said above, the role is NOT to
> change
> tags, but to remove redundancies.
>

 It doesn't matter.  All of the screed that I wrote yesterday applies to
 "redundant data" too - we need to understand how it got there, and what
 actually is wrong.

>>>
>>> Yep,
>>> as I said on another mail:
>>>
>>
>> Link please.  You've said lots of things, but much seemed very "handwavy"
>> and not really understanding of the issues.
>>
> TODO
>
>>
>> the majority comes from two 'bad' imports.
>>>
>>
>>

I looked back at the talk archives.  There's no context for this
discussion.  The moment I see something that says it is because of bad
imports, I start thinking that the issue and the supporting data is tainted.




> Link please - exactly which ones, run by whom and when?
>>
> Complete list (generated by me; source on git) is here:
> http://pastebin.com/Cn7gyn76
>
> Statistics are here:
> http://pastebin.com/KrZWJY6j
>
>
> Extract:
> 16 CanVec_Import_2009
> 16 PGS & Bing
> 22 PGS
> 23 Yahoo
>

Yahoo as a bad import?  How about a new mapper doing the best that they can
to improve the map added a few tags that a more experienced mapper can
build on?


> 36 CANVEC
> 38 JOSM lakewalker plugin
>


Where I see someone like Norm Abram[1] make these wonderful jigs and
patterns as labor saving devices for wood working, based on the limited
context, you are saying that the same labor saving Josm Lakewaker plugin to
help a mapper trace a lake is an import or a bad import?


> 39 bing
> 39 Lakewalker / Landsat
>

Ditto.


> 44 KSJ2
> 54 Landsat
> 56 CanVec 6.0 - NRCan
> 57 IRS
> 63 NRCan-CanVec-8.0
>118 landsat
>121 Bing
>123 NRCan-CanVec-7.0
>437 Kartverket N50
>802 NRCan-CanVec-10.0
>   1476
>   1708 NHD
>

The importers that provided me all the NHD data are my heroes.  Those
imports gave me a great deal of material to work with.

In my case, you'll have to provide more context here.  I look at OSM
Inspector and Keep Right and see all these broken things.  That is a
beautiful discovery.  Mappers are trying to improve the map that is very
much a human endeavor and mistake prone.  I am just lost how everything is
a bad import.

Please Advise,
Greg


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Abram
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Slack

[Greg Morgan]

Waffle Love:  The only reason that I am on Twitter is that I told two kids
in a food truck about OSM.  The only way I had to communicate with them was
via Twitter.  The grand experiment was to create a node with their
information. Once I paved the way, then the Waffe Love Van's node would be
moved to location after location by the Waffle Love duo.  The node on OSM
could be used to communicate their location with their customers.  They
favored my Tweet. Two more people know about OSM.  Unlike Betty White, I
don't have staffers to manage my presence.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3607959401#map=19/33.50553/-112.08266

The Twitter spam started flowing.  I ignored all the celeb X follow me
span.  One day I saw something interesting. I read that email.  The spam
began to focus.  Kids would come over.  I would pull up said email.  Oh!
Really You did this that and the other thing.  In the scheme of things
Twitter's big data engine made the connections.  Now these kids believe I
am part of Anonymous taking down ISIS. LOL!!! Since I told this story two
selectors at the NSA building have been activated.  Thank you.  You are
welcome!

Regards,
Greg



On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Greg Morgan <dr.kludge...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 3:52 AM, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There's an irony in these latest communication channels (loomio?) being
>> called 'collaborative'. The more that are used within OSM the more
>> fractured the communication becomes.
>>
>> It wouldn't be so bad if any conclusions were broadcast, but increasingly
>> they're not.
>>
>> IRC, due to its exclusiveness does nothing to promote a "community" which
>> many wish to attain.
>
>
> TL;DR
> ???
> HaHaHaHaHaHa  No I am not laughing at you or please I am not attacking
> you.  I love history.  The problem is that most of this discussion lacks
> the perspective of protocol wars waged over the years.  This is just World
> War 25. (You and others may not even get that reference.  It is from an
> Airplane Movie.)
>
> I am not attacking the board.  If this problem is really messed up and as
> usual, there are more directors than actors for a number of reasons[1],
> then my recommendation earlier is that the Board needs another elected
> volunteer member that handles all these channels of communication.  That
> solution was looking at the problem with my business analyst hat on. In the
> corporate world, this person on the C-Suite level is called the Public
> Information Officer, PIO.  This person guards and coordinates the public
> image of the corporation up to an including the logo and its placement on
> letterhead.
>
> In the early days of the Internet, a person could use the talk
> protocol...blah, blah, blah under the webserver port 80.[2] One of these
> protocols under port 80 was finger.  You could use the finger command to
> see what office hours a person was keeping.  Then the bad guys came along.
> In the Matrix movies somewhere there is a picture of good people using Nmap
> to break into the bad people's computers.  Exactly,  Nmap was used to check
> all these lower than port 80 numbers.  Just like your finger print, Nmap
> could be used to figure out the type of computer as an attack vector.  All
> those protocols and ports had to be turned off.
>
> Irc rocked the world based on these other problems. If you are a touch
> typist, there is no problem.  Yeah they taught typing on IBM typewriters
> back then.  Enter mIRC[3].  Some kid imagined a world where we all could
> communicate.
> Then there was ICQ and the cool kids on ICQ had a lower number than others.
>
> Mush Mush Mush!--Means I don't recall all the details nor does the order
> of existence of the protocol matter in these descriptions matter.  It all
> happened in the big old Internet.
>
> It seemed like there were three companies fighting a war.  These companies
> would constantly touch protocols to break communication and trap customers
> on platform. Pidgin and the like tried to bridge all these warring
> protocols.  There was such madness that plugins were developed to manage
> the changes.[4]
>
> Mush Mush Mush!
>
> Excite[4a] or what not created a protocol with an Icon.  I don't recall if
> this cool new shinny hotness road on the back of the Irc protocol or not.
> The use of IRC and mIRC raced to bottom feeder levels of today. Irc and
> mIRC were the new hotness that ruled the worl.  There were none of these
> questions of exclusiveness.  You were not promoting topic X without an IRC
> presence of some kind.
> Yahoo had other goodness.
>
> Mush Mush Mush!
>
> Some where in there world of communications Wikis rocked the world.  The
> hate from encyclopedias

Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Slack

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 3:52 AM, Dave F  wrote:

> There's an irony in these latest communication channels (loomio?) being
> called 'collaborative'. The more that are used within OSM the more
> fractured the communication becomes.
>
> It wouldn't be so bad if any conclusions were broadcast, but increasingly
> they're not.
>
> IRC, due to its exclusiveness does nothing to promote a "community" which
> many wish to attain.


TL;DR
???
HaHaHaHaHaHa  No I am not laughing at you or please I am not attacking
you.  I love history.  The problem is that most of this discussion lacks
the perspective of protocol wars waged over the years.  This is just World
War 25. (You and others may not even get that reference.  It is from an
Airplane Movie.)

I am not attacking the board.  If this problem is really messed up and as
usual, there are more directors than actors for a number of reasons[1],
then my recommendation earlier is that the Board needs another elected
volunteer member that handles all these channels of communication.  That
solution was looking at the problem with my business analyst hat on. In the
corporate world, this person on the C-Suite level is called the Public
Information Officer, PIO.  This person guards and coordinates the public
image of the corporation up to an including the logo and its placement on
letterhead.

In the early days of the Internet, a person could use the talk
protocol...blah, blah, blah under the webserver port 80.[2] One of these
protocols under port 80 was finger.  You could use the finger command to
see what office hours a person was keeping.  Then the bad guys came along.
In the Matrix movies somewhere there is a picture of good people using Nmap
to break into the bad people's computers.  Exactly,  Nmap was used to check
all these lower than port 80 numbers.  Just like your finger print, Nmap
could be used to figure out the type of computer as an attack vector.  All
those protocols and ports had to be turned off.

Irc rocked the world based on these other problems. If you are a touch
typist, there is no problem.  Yeah they taught typing on IBM typewriters
back then.  Enter mIRC[3].  Some kid imagined a world where we all could
communicate.
Then there was ICQ and the cool kids on ICQ had a lower number than others.

Mush Mush Mush!--Means I don't recall all the details nor does the order of
existence of the protocol matter in these descriptions matter.  It all
happened in the big old Internet.

It seemed like there were three companies fighting a war.  These companies
would constantly touch protocols to break communication and trap customers
on platform. Pidgin and the like tried to bridge all these warring
protocols.  There was such madness that plugins were developed to manage
the changes.[4]

Mush Mush Mush!

Excite[4a] or what not created a protocol with an Icon.  I don't recall if
this cool new shinny hotness road on the back of the Irc protocol or not.
The use of IRC and mIRC raced to bottom feeder levels of today. Irc and
mIRC were the new hotness that ruled the worl.  There were none of these
questions of exclusiveness.  You were not promoting topic X without an IRC
presence of some kind.
Yahoo had other goodness.

Mush Mush Mush!

Some where in there world of communications Wikis rocked the world.  The
hate from encyclopedias was incredible.  LOL Expert data HaHaHaHa!  Note
the parallel to authoritative data and OSM data.  HaHaHaHa!  Britannica
what?  Encarta what?  Wikipedia smoked 'em all!

Mush Mush Mush!

Now the fans of new hotness protocol x, y, and z are at World War 25 with
statements like Google X is dead; Facebook fans say that Twitter is dead.
Then there is the next new hotness and the fans start a new round including
slack.  I am jaded enough that I think most of these new hotness tools are
a battle for lock in and not real open communication.  There are people on
this list that are passionate about this.  The message that I understand
from the anti closed hotness x is based on the brief history of time above.
How can we as OSM promoters scream about open data and then smack our
friends in the open source world by using a closed protocol?

My prior example [5] was trying to show how I saw one of our board members
running ragged.  I asked permission to do something because it solved a
problem for me and possibly others that may use the conference videos.
Here is the business problem. Each year when a new US conference is posted.
the old conference videos go missing so to speak.  I am working on
resolving the problem for 2015 with their permission. In addition, I
created the 2016 wiki page set.[6]  All of a sudden the committee and
Martijn have one less thing to worry about.  They are my boss.  If they
want to take the page set in a different direction, then I will assist
them.  They are the PIO with an important message to publish.  Oh! In this
case, Martijn drew the short straw. He was the first board member to 

Re: [Talk-us] Communications manager

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:42 AM, Paul Norman <penor...@mac.com> wrote:

> On 4/1/2016 12:22 AM, Greg Morgan wrote:
>
>> I would think that the US Board should add another board member to be a
>> communications manager.  I now understand why corporations have paid staff
>> that do nothing but manage all these communication options.
>>
>
> Why would this need to be a board member as opposed to another volunteer
> managing communications without being a board member?
>

Umm...because I am thinking like the US mission statement.  (Note that I
added under bars for emphasis.) Because I have little time nor interest to
join all the social media groups.  Because I would think the board has
access to information that I do not.  Because I would think that this would
be all about transparency of the board.

I enjoy listening to our conference videos. They are thought provoking. I
try to attend the state of the map every year but some other concern
prevents my attendance. It is not like I am saying, "not my job".  I asked
permission from the US board via the board's email address.  I did not want
to step on someones toes if a person on the 2016 organizing committee
already called dibs for the job.  I'd be happy to take on the job of
organizing the You Tube and Vimeo video channels.  I love this media.  I am
perfect for the job.  You create 'em.  I'll arrange 'em.  However, that
would require security access and trust that may not be appropriate under
this circumstances.

I am just discussing one part of fostering awarenes.  Hence my thoughts
about one position on the board to help manage the load of all
communications.

Regards,
Greg

Mission statement

We strive to support the OpenStreetMap project in the United States through
___fostering awareness___, ensuring broad availability of data, continuous
quality improvement, and an active community.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/United_States#Mission_statement
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Slack

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> I find this a really worthwhile conversation to have. IRC is still great
> for some but it’s hardly inclusive. I like Slack and started using it early
> on. We set up an OSM US Slack, initially just for the board to coordinate,
> but we extended it to be open for all soon. They even give us free stuff
> because we’re a not-for-profit organization. I am a lurker on the Maptime
> slack and member of ~10 Slack organizations total. I introduced Slack at my
> workplace and it has gained great popularity there since. I like how Slack
> could help support a more inclusive OSM community.
>
>
I would think that the US Board should add another board member to be a
communications manager.  I now understand why corporations have paid staff
that do nothing but manage all these communication options.  For example,
 I was surprised to find that the call for US SOTM 2016 was open.  I missed
it because I don't always catch the board blog.  Had there been a board
position to send an email here, then another part of the community would
have received the message.  In a recent email chain about the US relation
tool, Martijn mentioned that he was wrapped around the axle going ca-thump,
ca-thump. I asked for permission to fix the 2015 SOTMUS page and create the
2016 SOTMUS page. The backing email is attached.  Martijn sends out a
tweet.  I see that I missed posting about it here. Oh and I have to sign up
for talk-ca to complete that important announcement too.  However, I don't
want to step on the organizing committee's toes and role in process.
That's where if feels like another board position is required to make sure
all these communication channels are filled. (I need to push the 2015 video
page edits to the weekend. Plans fizzle but I will get it done.)

Frederik mentioned Git.  I remember watching Git unfold.  Linus was taking
heat for using the proprietary Bit Keeper software to manage the Linux
Kernel development.  I think there was a Bit Keeper license violation.  As
I recall proprietary a company/person taunted Linux developers that crowd
sourced software couldn't match a system like Bit Keeper. Roughly 18 months
later, Git was complete/stable.  The software was functional and useful
much earlier than 18 months.  It seems like all creatures great and small
use the github.com site without thinking about it.  Github is a well
crafted wrapper around Git.

On the one hand, I understand all the paywalls out there that provide
different communication features.  I am concerned about the future openness
of the web when it appears that all the foundational RFCs are taken behind
these paywalls.  It almost feels like Facebook is recreating the web as a
private web. New hotness X is all the some people use.  It is hard to reach
out to these people if you do not use new hotness X to do so.  On the other
hand, there may be missed potential systems like Git if we don't stick to
our "Open Source/Open Data" guns so to speak.

I have two more thoughts.  The first is related to SOTMUS. At one time last
year there was a hope of having regional conferences.  Then the SOTMUS 2016
call for locations went out.  I am curios.  Was there an interesting
discussion on, say, Slack? Did the board forget to explain why the regional
conferences were dropped? Did the board flat out forget to think about it?

My second thought is about the legal thing.  Let's say the board had an
interesting discussion regarding the pros and cons about bringing in the
Harvard people using slack. Let's say that the board thought other people
were watching on slack or whatever you do. tick tock tick tock.  Now that
time passed and the Harvard people are discovered, the board lost the
message because the postmortem conversation looked like the board was way
too private and secretive.

By all means, I am not out running the lynch mob after the board.  I am
using these examples to show how hard communication can be. In our current
age, I think that an already difficult communication process grows as each
of these slack like tools is adopted.

Just like Betty White, I am on the Twitter.  I just don't have enough
cycles to use it.  More importantly, I need to have time to contribute at
least one change set a day big or small.  That's that way I can set out to
rule the world each day just like Pinky and the Brain.  ;-)

Regards,
Greg




Greg -- this is great. Thank you so much for getting this organized. Let me
tweet out a link to the wiki so folks are aware of it. Feel free to post to
talk-us / talk-ca too of course.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:13 AM Greg Morgan wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>
>> Thanks Greg! I took the liberty to remove the call for bids from the 2016
>> page as this part of the process is behind us. Please feel free to organize
>> the page based on previous’ years pages or add your own flavor.
>

Re: [Talk-us] Legal Research

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 5:12 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 4:58 PM, alyssa wright 
> wrote:
>
>> We're also accepting nominations for next year's OSM US pet mascot.
>
>
> I nominate me !
>

Paul, I can see that.  However, you'd need to replace the logo with some
sort of mappy thing and then run the image through an emoji process.  You
get plus point because the base image is not a cat or dog!
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Re: [Talk-us] Smartphone App that searches OSM addresses?

[Greg Morgan]

I am using the Android version of Maps.ME and there is a IOS version.  I
just tried an address in Maps.ME.  If found an address that I knew was
there.  You have choices to load state by state files.  High zoom tiles
come by default with the application so that you have reference roads.  You
will be asked to load the state file as you zoom in to find detail.  The
search/routing requires that you select the larger of two available files
for the state. I have not tried to create my own tiles.  They do provide a
quarterly update to the files along with the application if required.  I
suggested the IOS version to my sister who may travel to Europe.  She
seemed pleased.   I wanted to use a Garmin like app for Android for the
files that Dave Hansen produces of the US.  I tried Maps.ME before I
searched for other options. The Maps.ME application fixes the roaming data
problem that I have with cell coverage in Arizona.   I found an old working
Samsung 2 without a sim card.  I turned on Airplane mode and reenabled WiFi
access--saving battery.  I have all the states west of the Mississippi
loaded on that phone without addition microSD card use.  That allows me to
take pictures with Mapillary on my primary phone yet still have map
coverage with the second phone.

Regards,
Greg


On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Mike N  wrote:

> In the case where a county completely revamps its road network and
> addressing scheme for E911 purposes, then authorizes its road and address
> data to OSM, and it's properly imported, are there any Smartphone apps for
> both Android and IOS that would search those addresses?   And have turn by
> turn routing.
>
>   My cursory review:
>
>   OffMaps2 - Yes on address search, no on routing
>GPS Nav - uses commercial address reference over OSM address
>Scout - "  "
> OSMAnd - theoretically Yes on Android (I haven't tried it), I can't
> get any OSM address search to work on iPhone
>
>  Any suggestions?
>
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-us] SunCertPathBuilderException

[Greg Morgan]

Checking the certificate[1] via a web browser says that the certificate for
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/StartupPage is valid from ‎Friday,
‎December ‎09, ‎2016 1:37:29 PM until 12/9/2016.  If you haven't used this
computer for awhile you might check your JOSM version.  I had no problems
last night nor since the cert was issued on 12/9 with the latest version of
JOSM. I don't know if the SHA-1 issue[2] is related.

If the issue is a proxy problem as Mike pointed out, then I recall that you
have to add -Dhttp.proxyHost=yourProxyURL to your JOSM arguments before you
can change the proxy settings in your preferences.

[1]
https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/95617?p=ui_security_indicator=1
[2] http://blog.chromium.org/2014/09/gradually-sunsetting-sha-1.html

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Alan Bragg  wrote:

>
>
> At 3pm EST JOSM is refusing to start. I getting this message.
> ​If I ignore the message I can continue to use JOSM as usual.
>
> -
>
> JOSM tried to access the following resources:
>
>- https://josm.openstreetmap.de/maps
>- https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/StartupPage
>
> but *failed* to do so, because of the following network errors:
>
>- sun.security.provider.certpath.SunCertPathBuilderException: unable
>to find valid certification path to requested target
>
> It may be due to a missing proxy configuration.
> Would you like to change your proxy settings now?
>
> --
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gosh ... something about mapping ...

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Harald Kliems  wrote:

> Very useful, Simon. Thanks!
>
> Slightly OT: Can anybody explain what R5-5, "No vehicles with lugs" means?
> I'm assuming it doesn't refer to vehicles like this
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MyBrrEGexIg/TEIogw5nrdI/AFk/Jl7SF5tfQV0/s1600/L9990154.JPG
>
>
>
>>
You made me look...

In the early years of the 20th century, hard-surface roads often had signs
that read: “Tractors with Lugs Prohibited.”

Those early tractors were built with steel wheels covered with piercing
lugs that gouged every surface. I remember the signs on U.S. 63 south of
Stewartville to Racine and then on Minnesota Highway 16 going west to Grand
Meadow.

By the late 1930s, tractors finally were being built with rubber tires that
still gave field traction and speed, sometimes up to 20 mph on the road.

...

http://www.postbulletin.com/news/local/tractors-with-lugs-were-dangerous/article_580aa04a-5d73-5de1-8139-7b402a63ba90.html
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Re: [Talk-us] GeoBadges 1.0 for OpenStreetMap

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Steven Johnson 
wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> Just in time for #OSMGeoweek, TeachOSM with support from Mapstory.org and
> American Geographical Society, has released the first OpenStreetMap
> Surveyor I badge.[1]
>
> The badge is aimed at the newest open mappers of any age and is awarded
> for successful acquisition of basic editing skills on OpenStreetMap. We
> envision this badge to be the first in a constellation of more specialized
> badges based on skill sets, domains, area knowledge, and so forth. For more
> info on the mechanics of GeoBadges, see the AGS blog post[2].
>
> We have a special deal during OSMGeoweek: Anyone who maps in any of the
> #100Mapathons, #MissingMaps, #PeaceCorps, or #HOT events during OSMGeoweek
> will be eligible to claim the badge. Just make sure to comment your
> changeset with one of the 2015 OSMGeoweek hashtags so we can find it.
>
> Happy Mapping, everyone...
>
> [1] http://bit.ly/1NAhybF
> [2] http://bit.ly/1Pwsi0G 
> -- SEJ
> -- twitter: @geomantic
> -- skype: sejohnson8
>
>
Steven Johnson,

Like dude!  My hat is off to you!!!  You dared to violate the mainstream
[1] way of doing OSM business.  I don't know if we should call you Newton
[2], Galileo [3], Ignaz [4], Lincoln [6], or suffrage [7].  All I know is
that it takes a long [4][8] to make changes around here. I don't get why
OpenStreetMap has such a problem with some of the key tenants of Open
Source:
* Show me the code to make it better if the current code is wrong.
* Release early and release often.
* Use the force read the source.
I just saw these videos today. I get what you are trying to do!!!
1.) You are trying to help new mappers choose a lovable project to focus
on. [9][10].
2.) You are helping new mappers by picking one topic at a time to focus
energy on. [9][10]
3.) You are doing new mappers a favor by helping them define a performance
level. [9][10]
4.) and how to deconstructing the skill into subskills for them with badge
levels.
5) What's totally awesome about your plan is that you are providing time
frames for each subskill in say 20 hours. [9][10]
Oh my goodness! Steven your are a rocket scientist when it comes to those
little badges.  I get that you are starting at "Surveyor I" with just
setting up an account.  You have a plan to build on badge I with editing,
advanced editing, reading aerials, using KeepRight, and finally ending up
at say,Surveyor 25 after learning all the survey techniques.

I hope that you keep at your idea as you have dared to "Release early" in
hopes of developing a community around the system.  I hope that you can
ignore all the negative feedback [11] and return here for further refine
your badge ideas,"release often".  Hey I know that there are some pervs on
the network.  Even though the pervs exist, there are all these kids out
there that lie behind their parents backs and have a facebook page at 12.
Yes and they also lie about their age too to get that FB account.  If your
program fails approval based on age issues, I think you are on track to
develop the idea for "adults". The rewards idea are awesome. The current
plan of making new mappers think that have to have $20,000 of GPS
equipment[12] before adding a single node isn't working.

Keep up the good work Steve!

Regards,
Greg


mainstream
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=309
Newton
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=470
Galileo
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=617
Ignaz Semmelweis
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=716
It takes a long time.
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=836
Lincoln
[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=866
Suffrage
[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=912
It takes a long time like gravity
[8] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dDAD0Y_WU=946
Visual summary "The First 20 Hours"
[9]
http://sachachua.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/20130705-Visual-Book-Review-The-First-20-Hours-How-to-Learn-Anything...-Fast-Josh-Kaufman.png
You tube "The First 20 Hours" interview.
[10] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB6K60mkmho
feedback
[11] https://youtu.be/Bxtb-PpZih8?t=653
$20,000 to mark plant locations for a database.
[12] http://www.meetup.com/PHXGeo/photos/21943882/364216142/#364216142
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Re: [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap US elections: October 12 townhall with candidates

[Greg Morgan]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Michael Reichert  wrote:

> Dear US electorate,
>
> Am Thu, 08 Oct 2015 20:16:50 -0700 schrieb Alex Barth:
> > And - it's not to late to run for elections! Get your name up on the
> > list by October 10th.
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/
> United_States/Elections/2015#Candidates
>
> And this is my censorious analysis reviewing all candidates:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Nakaner/diary/36098
>
> *Summary* I think that some candidates are suitable and some are not
> suitable. It looks as the number of edits and the time since the first
> map edit is proportional to the suitability of each candidate (with some
> exceptions).
>

Thank you for the analysis.  It is the same message that I heard last
year.  I applaud the courage of these inexperienced mappers or whatever the
criteria is to run for the board. New blood and old blood would make things
better regardless how many nodes or their consistency level of adding map
features.  It feels like the experienced people want more mapping parties
like England and Germany for example.  That practice does not scale outside
of densely packed US urban areas. A new/old mapper might come up with a new
way of doing business in the US.  Experienced people like DBAs have told me
that I should not store images in a database.  Then MapBox comes along with
MBTiles and has a great solution to managing tiles. Inexperience people can
find new ways of looking at the same people that's results in game changing
techniques. The diversity of experience and opinions make this a strong
slate of candidates.  What would the US board do if the main problem is at
the OSF level as far as new ideas or unrecognized problems?

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Find missing roads

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> I'll look into it.
>


I don't know if this is the same issue.  I noticed that there was a
disconnect between the web map,
http://www.improve-osm.org/missingRoads/#7/34.611/-109.797 , and Josm.  The
website showed just a few heatmap giblets. Yet there area all sorts of red
does in Josm.  Then I realized that the defaults of the website might be
different than Josm.  Either that or I changed the two so that they did not
match.



>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 6:18 PM Russ Nelson  wrote:
>
>> Eric Ladner writes:
>>  > I see some just north of Utica.   dozens of dots over all of New York
>> if I
>>  > zoom out.
>>
>> Weird. I fixed some north of Utica. Are your dots possibly cached? Is
>> my lack of dots cached? Martijn?
>>
>> Paul Johnson  writes:
>>  > Try other states?  ;o)
>>
>> I don't know if you've noticed, but I stick to NY. It's big enough to
>> be a challenge, but small enough to say "I finished this." where
>> "this" is lakes, ponds, rivers, streams, boat ramps, interstates, and
>> railroads. My own county is a big enough challenge to get all its
>> county roads into relations. I need to start that project up again
>>
>
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[Talk-us] Android Phone App that Uses Garmin Format -- Was Whole-US Garmin Map update - 2015-09-30

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Dave Hansen  wrote:
> These are based off of Lambertus's work here:
>
> http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl
>
> If you have questions or comments about these maps, please feel
> free to ask.  However, please do not send me private mail.  The
> odds are, someone else will have the same questions, and by
> asking on the talk-us@ list, others can benefit.
>
> Downloads:
>
> http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2015-09-30
>
> Map to visualize what each file contains:
>
> 
> http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2015-09-30/kml/kml.html


I think my Garmin GPS finally died.  Has anyone had experience with or
can recommend an Android app that uses the Garmin file format?  I seem
to be in areas where the data roaming does not shine.  It would be
nice to toss one of these US Garmin files on the SD card and still be
able to navigate.  The primary concern is navigation so the other
editing features and such are not as great of a concern.

Thanks,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-us] Should driveways be on OSM?

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Tom Bloom  wrote:
> Summary, sort of. Thanks for all comments!
>
> There is no consensus, but what I've gleaned is that:

I believe you are reading into what was said to prove your point.
>
> -If the driveway is long and wrong, or short and inside an urban area,
> delete it.

Long story short: you are going to delete this guys hard work because
you do not like how it is rendered.

Longer story long:  One of the best things about OSM is the level of
detail that can be achieve.  One of the best example areas in the US
on the top 100K meta tiles
http://fred.dev.openstreetmap.org/density/
 is in east coast.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?box=yes=-78.662109375,35.7821707032661,-78.6181640625,35.8178131586966#map=19/35.84268/-78.65369
Look at that beautiful detail!.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1938107848
There's even detail that's not rendered.

What's even more impressive about this area is that much of the map
detail was entered in after TIGER.  Yes someone entered it by hand.
So are you going to delete this area too just because you don't like
how it is renedered?  If other maps do not include features are you
going to delete that too?
I do not understand why you'd want to take the map density backwards
just because you do not like how it is rendered.


>
> Paul and Kevin say I should fix them. Easily said, but there are are too
> many and there are whole towns needing alignment, and endless roads
> connecting them that don't remotely resemble reality. No data is better than
> wrong data.
>
> -Change to hwy=service, and service=driveway. I agree.
>
> -Regarding access=private. If there is a gate, it's private. If it is a lane
> to a farmhouse, it may or may not be. There are any number of reasons. The
> electric meter reader. FedEx. Someone who is lost. The vet. I think the
> private tag should be removed, unless the lane is posted private. I've never
> seen one in decades of biking country roads. Farmers love company. If there
> is an address issue, it is normally the mail box at the main road, not at
> the house.
>
> -Shared lane. If there is more than one house, the lane should be fixed.
>
> -Living Streets. This is a distinct entity and not something decided by OSM.
> They are decided by local administration, and OSM should tag them only after
> that. Paul suggests that there could be townhouses at the end of rural lanes
> in rural Oregon. They are farmhouses and the tag is wrong. Tho I do prefer
> the wrong green tag to the wrong red tag :-).
>
> -Don't map for the renderer. Agreed, but it seems reasonable to try to make
> the map look good. Mapnik is the face of OSM for most people. Paul again
> suggests that I should make my own render. Why? I've spent countless hours
> aligning rivers, roads, and rails with Mapnik as the guide. This makes the
> map look better and may appeal more to prospective users.

So if we follow your logic these features are next on your list:
Google doesn't map bridges that means delete
Google doesn't map leisure=pitch or sports fields that means delete.
Google doesn't map leisure=playground that means delete.
Google doesn't map highway=crossing that means delete.
On and on it goes...
Hence your idea of what should be displayed on osm has major roads and
rivers that you have mapped.

Like dude!  You are part of a community.  There are other opinions of
what should be in the map database.  That's why we don't map for the
rendering.  Other people take that data and create their versions of
the map .  They will not be able to do that if you remove all the data
based on a formula where you do not see the another map that presents
the data or how a certain map looks.

Your view may explain what Pascal noted in his research: "Also, the
previously discussed pattern which depicts a contributor loss of
almost 70% over the years is again visible."
http://neis-one.org/2014/08/osm-activity-2014/

Why would any mapper want to contribute hours and hours of time to OSM
just to have someone with a wild hair delete all their work because
they don't like how it renders?  Put the beer down and sober up before
you wreck someone else's work!

Regards,
Greg

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Re: [Talk-us] Should driveways be on OSM?

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> I run into this as well. If I don't see anything close to the way on
> imagery I definitely have very little problem deleting them.
>
> I also question the access=private tagging although not because of the
> rendering. I mean technically it is correct I suppose but if you are
> trying to route to an address at the end of a long driveway, the
> router should tell you to go down the driveway. Tagging it as


If this really is true, then perhaps you should file a bug report.  If
I accurately map a residential gated community with access=private,
show the gates, then wouldn't that be more valuable to set what
expectations are required to get into the area.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16842943#map=18/33.78757/-111.98892

> access=private would probably prevent that from happening in most
> routers. I would say access=destination might be more accurate however
> really I think data consumers should know what highway=service and

Who are these data consumers that you speak of?  If they are
freeloaders, I could careless about them.  One of shifts that I have
noticed over the years is that we appear to no longer care about what
mappers do or how we improve the ecosystem for mappers but I hear all
about data consumers.  The data consumers need to adapt to OSM and not
the other way around.

> service=driveway together mean and appropriately handle it without an
> explicit access tag.

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[Talk-us] GPS Tracking and the Most Novel Use of OSM data that I have seen.

[Greg Morgan]

I had autoplay enabled on YouTube.  Somehow, I ended up listening to
this legal discussion on GPS Tracking.  It was one of the most
engaging discussions that I have heard on the surrounding issues.

Some of you may have used d3js.org for data presentation.  The iD
editor uses d3js to present OSM data for mapping.  In this case, data
was presented with the Unity game engine using OSM as a backdrop.  The
last two links have the point in time right before OSM is mentioned or
used.

Regards,
Greg

Note that there may be swearwords in the presentations.  Please don't
click on the links if that will offend you.

GPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Y8ZWHy1dY

Creepy Doll.
https://youtu.be/ubjuWqUE9wQ?t=1838

CouchDB, GeoCouch, OpenStreetMap
https://youtu.be/ubjuWqUE9wQ?t=2185

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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER tracing layer updated to 2015 release

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:55 PM, Eric Fischer e...@pobox.com wrote:

 Last week the US Census Bureau released the 2015 version of TIGER. This
 afternoon I updated the data in the set of tracing tiles that Mapbox hosts.

 As before, at zoom level 16 and up, it shows the complete TIGER streets,
 and at zoom levels 12 through 15, it shows TIGER minus dynamically
 subtracted OSM so you can more easily find TIGER streets that are missing
 in OSM.

 The tile URL has not changed, so if you are using iD or another editor
 that pulls from editor-imagery-index, you already have the new data. If
 not, you can manually enter the tile URL:


 https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/enf.e0b8291e/{z}/{x}/{y}.png?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoiZW5mIiwiYSI6IkNJek92bnMifQ.xn2_Uj9RkYTGRuCGg4DXZQ



I clicked on the link you provided and received:

{message:Not Found}

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] New JOSM RasterFiltersPlugin

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Alan Bragg alan.d.br...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks Blake, When I went to the page

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins

 RasterFilters was not listed. Even after refreshing the page.

 I'm glad you sent the link
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RasterFilters

 Alan

 On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hi,

 Directions:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RasterFilters

 Note it has a two step process, install the plugin, restart, go to
 preferences and download the filters in the Map project tab (3rd from top
 in mine, has a grid pattern). Clicking the download button there doesn't
 have a visible effect, but you probably have to do it.

 After that it works as advertised now.



Beyond what Blake said, here are two key phrases from the wiki page.

Also after adding at least one layer you can find button *Choose Filter* in
the JOSM main window (Figure 2).
...
*Note: if you added not raster but OSM layer the Choose Filters button
will be disabled.*

In practice that means clicking on, say, the MapBox layer, and making sure
that the little green check mark is on the same layer. Only then will the
Choose Filter icon be enabled so that you can add the filters to the
desired layer.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Railway crossing challenge for MapRoulette

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Charlotte Wolter techl...@techlady.com
wrote:

  Matijn,

 By the way, what is the difference between crossing and
 level_crossing?



I treat highway=crossing the same as railway=crossing.  That would be a
place where a horse, bike, skateboard, foot path, etc. would cross the
railway.  I also apply all the related highway=crossing tags to the
railway=crossing nodes.  I've used this mostly around light rail crossings.

There are also additional tags that could be added to a level
crossing: A level
crossing (where a road crosses a railway, usually with a gate and big
flashing traffic light).
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dlevel_crossing
That would require additional tasks to survey the crossings.  Adding the
crossings would be a good first step for a survey phase.  Armchair mapping
any survey mapping can coexist!




 At 03:30 PM 7/7/2015, you wrote:

 Hey Mike —

 Crossings already present in OSM will not be excluded, but can be easily
 skipped over. In most cases you can see them on the rendered map tiles so
 no need for a round trip to the editor.

 Martijn van Exel



I see the why Martijn would be hard pressed to exclude crossings that are
already in the OSM.  He's using the Federal Railway Administration, FRA,
data as a punch list in this challenge.  Perhaps you can add additional
features to a crossing in this challenge, if you know that bells and
whistles exist at a crossing.


Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Importing Tesla Superchargers

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Charles Samuels o...@charles.derkarl.org
wrote:

 On Monday, April 13, 2015 03:35:20 PM Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  Having done a few up to dating scripts:
 
  I recommend looking for nearby amenity=charging_station, not name=
  Supercharger.
  In fact you may want to make this even more fuzzy, checking for either
  tag.  And
 That might conflict with a nearby non-Tesla charger.

  use name:Supercharger not name=Supercharger.
 What's the difference? I already use a case-insensitive substring search
 for
 supercharger.

 
  OSM mappers will often change things like a name tag.  While it is
 possibly
  nobody will ever mess
  with the data you left in OSM, but chances are periodically someone will
  hand edit the nodes
  you left.


Here's a supercharger with all the bells and whistles mapped out[1].
* The charging problem is all about current. The big old transformer that
supports a Tesla DC station was added to the north of the screen wall.
* The original node form Tesla was in the walled area.
* I use a single node for all the chargers that I have mapped including
Tesla. If a charging site has limited amps going to the vehicle, then the J
connector style can require a long time for a partial charge.  Hence, this
is not like a gas station where a single node is good enough.  For example,
an EV charger may be tied up for four hours in low amp settings.  Tesla is
changing the game with a 10 minute charge time.
* The real address on the site is 444 South Watson Road[2].  The addressing
authority did not send the address to the USPS so you will not find 444 as
a valid USPS address via address correcting software.  444 is a valid
Buckeye AZ address for emergency calls or for the utility company.  If the
address was submitted to USPS, then you'd receive a code saying that 444
was a valid address along with additional information saying that the USPS
will not deliver mail to that site.  444 is on the south side of the walled
area.
* The 416 address is for the Carl's Jr.  I have not added that photo to the
OSM wiki yet.  I am not sure if it would help.  Perhaps Carl's Jr. is the
operator/sponsor of the charger?  If so, then that would be a savvy
business move.  Sponsoring the Tesla charger may help Carl's Jr. compete
with the truck stops to the west of the location.  USPS would deliver mail
to the 416 address.
* I put the Buckeye Supercharger name on the industrial landuse that I
added to cover the switching cabinets.  All the addresses and names would
help someone find the location.  Nominatim has already picked up the
information.
* I used Key Pad Mapper 2 to record all the reference numbers on each
terminal.  It looks like there is significance to the As and Bs in use[3].
* I used an idea that I picked up from Bryce on his Duro repair stations.
I changed the original source tag to website. I added source as survey.
Let's say that you program sets the source tag to auto or the program's
name.  If a mapper takes the time add the detail, then your program could
use the survey tag as an indicator to discontinue the updates to the tags.
* Feel free to hack and whack on the nodes that I created.  It won't hurt
my feelers and I won't stop mapping if you do. The wiki page is a mess
right now[4].  I have found that it is a confusing topic to get straight as
I am not an EV vehicle driver.  I think there needs to be a US or North
America section of the page that has a focus on what is used here.  You all
can hack and whack on the wiki page too.
* One of the problems is that in a pinch, a regular RV socket can be used
to charge the vehicles.  That may mean that RV and EV tags could merge some
day.
* I'd encourage you to continue your efforts.  Once you have the Tesla
stations done, then you can try your hand at all the other chargers.  I
added a great deal of detail for a couple of SemaConnect Network chargers.
I personally wouldn't do that in the future.  Having an assisted editing
system like what your are trying to develop would be a great help to
enhance limited data that a mapper might include.  All the other chargers
require some sort of membership to a network unless the government is
pushing a free one[5].  Such a deal!  Spend $30K + on an EV and get free
parking at a basketball or baseball game.  ;-)

HTH,
Greg

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30205831
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Cs_us_tesla_buckeye_charger.png
[3]
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42481-How-does-a-Supercharger-work
[4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station
[5] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3184125857
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Importing Tesla Superchargers

[Greg Morgan]

Oh my goodness.  Once again we have the alleged notion that imports will
drive off mappers without examining any real data. If we look at the
Buckeye Charger we see that fredo_p, a A Hit-and-Run Mapper, added the
original node.  He's still a mapper. Theodin a German mapper added
something. AndiG88 another German mapper added something.  Finally njaard
touched the same node.  The German mappers did nothing different that what
njaard did.  They looked up that there were 8 charging ports on the Tesla
site.  I surveyed the site and see no problem with what has gone on with
this node.  The question I have is should there be eight nodes for each
station since one is required for each parking spot along with a
wall/building for the transformer where the address is located?  The name
issue may not be a factor since you can Google on either the address or
name.  Note that all the mappers involved including me the surveyor are
still mapping.  I am surprised that we did not loose fredo_p--last modifier
of 95 nodes, 16 ways and 0 relationships--with the mapper's first
experience of a node that does not render. I hope that we don't loose
njaard--last modifier of 2,900 nodes, 663 ways, and 30 relationships--over
a node still does not render with a cute little icon.  In may case, I lost
interest in mapping all EV chargers because there's no reward for mapping
them.  There was the reward of finding three of the four types of chargers
used in the US. There was the reward of understanding the problems with
making EV work. Sure the nodes are in the database but I do not experience
the reward of seeing the node on the map like a regular gas station node.
In my view it is not the importers that are killing mappers it is the
cartographers that only show a portion of what can be mapped.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mapbox+sudio+data+projectie=utf-8oe=utf-8#q=buckeye+arizona+tesla+charger
http://www.teslamotors.com/findus/location?place=buckeyesupercharger
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Cs_us_tesla_buckeye_charger.png
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2776570644/history#map=19/33.44263/-112.55724
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/fredo_p
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?fredo_p
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Theodin
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Theodin
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?AndiG88
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/njaard
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?njaard

I am guessing that this will bounce because I am not on the import list.

HTH,
Greg


On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:33 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


 Charles Samuels o...@charles.derkarl.org writes:

  On Sunday, April 12, 2015 01:12:12 AM Andy Allan wrote:
   Right now, if a tag doesn't match with supercharge.info, I overwrite
   OSM's.
 
  Could you explain this a bit further? For example, if supercharge.info
  has capacity 6, and I correct this to capacity 8, does your script
  then overwrite my tag and change it back to the incorrect value?
 
  Correct. My intent is that I expect OSM to be no better than
 supercharge.info,
  so for now it's easiest to just overwrite. Then on following runs of it,
 I
  manually investigate the changes made in OSM and reconcile the
 differences.

 You may actually be right about the likelihood of correctness, and this
 may lead to an expected value of  0.1 errors per year.  However,
 imports changing data entered by hand is something that crosses a
 cultural bright line, and I find it concerning that you're heading down
 that path.  I say that as someone who is usually much more on the
 pro-import side.

 To stay within OSM norms, the thing to do is leave the existing data
 alone, and publish a list someplace of mismatches.  It's fine to write
 to the person who added it and explain that there's a mismatch and ask
 if they are sure.

 The other notion in imports is to test  out the process before you do
 it.  Have you run the conflation code against the osm database, and how
 many cases are there where osm already has a charger station but the
 tags dont' match?

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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems kli...@gmail.com wrote:

 In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has worked
 pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense (worst case: Montreal,
 where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will have it's own house
 number) it starts getting tricky assigning the number to the correct
 building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can definitely be useful for address
 data.


Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous when using
pen and paper.  I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two digits
while entering five digit numbers.  There's a bunch of post processing when
you actually enter the data.  With any technique that I use, I always feel
like Billy in the family circus.  It is amazing where people put
addresses.  Commercial buildings can be the worst case to try and find the
number.

http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
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[Talk-us] Better Than OSM was Your opinion about SOTM US

[Greg Morgan]

Alex,

I really like this Better Than OSM map.  The very accidental name has
that Missouri state Show me impact.  Show me where the newer TIGER is
better than OSM and I'll show you where OSM is still better than TIGER.
The accidental genus of the map comes in the last example.  With these
ideas in mind:

I found this area from area from the magenta/blue TIGER map that MapBox
produced several years ago.  Back then the magenta/blue line stood out.
Here I said let's see if TIGER caught up to me.  In this case, TIGER has
improved but there is a yellow line replacing the magenta/blue line.  The
interesting building and parking lot pattern really shows up nicely in this
map.  Both the discovery and mapping of geometric patterns in OSM has that
Bob Ross happy little animals affect on me.  ;-)  I spent additional time
improving the area based on the perceived challenge laid down by the map.
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#18/33.28937/-111.94653

Here are two missing apartment/condo like areas that show up with the map.
The blank and gray blob on the OSM main map provide no real indication that
there's something to improve upon.  TIGER is better in this case because
OSM doesn't have the additional detail that TIGER shows.
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#19/33.28999/-111.88173
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/33.28999/-111.88173
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#19/33.29724/-111.94407
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/33.29724/-111.94407

The Better Than OSM map flags this next area yet we can see that OSM is
better than TIGER in this case.  Here is an example of the challenge that
you face.  How would you turn off these yellow lines that fall between the
real roads in this sardine subdivision?  This area feels like one of the
scale problems that TIGER has.  It could also be that TIGER staff have not
had a chance to clean up these kinds-of lines.
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#21/33.29915/-111.92984

Here's another TIGER cleanup issue for TIGER staff.  However, the Better
Than OSM chanllege pointed me to a way that needed to be turned into a
dual carriage way.
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#20/33.24150/-111.84551

This next area is what I call a sub-prime rate subdivision.  The area may
have stalled right before or during the sub-prime mortgage rate debacle.  I
cannot always tell if TIGER staff received the plat information right after
bankruptcy. I wished MapBox had a version of satellite that would stop at
zoom 17 and let me over zoom the imagery to 18 and below.  Does anyone know
of a way to make over zooming of MapBox Satellite work in JOSM with the
current MapBox configuration?
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#19/33.24192/-111.83822

Whereas an earlier example had TIGER yellow pointers to an area concealed
by OSM one color blobs, the Better Than OSM also points to areas that are
a tie: both maps are equally bad because there is missing data.  These
large cavernous areas really attract my eye while panning and zooming the
map.  One feature that would be helpful is a wispy thin building outline.
I don't know what the exact ratio would be but If you are using 9 for a
road width, then 2 may be that wispy thin building outline value. Adding
too many additional features would diminish the impact of the map.  As a
volunteer, I might have time to get lost in a detailed building.  At other
times, I might try to knock out a few nodes while waiting for the
carpooler.  The building outline might be a helpful gauge for the type of
project that I can fit into the time constraints of the moment.  I have
been using this map as my primary launching point since you introduced it.
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#18/33.24546/-111.84102
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/33.24546/-111.84102
https://api.tiles.mapbox.com/v4/lxbarth.647bc246/page.html?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibHhiYXJ0aCIsImEiOiJFVXdYcUlvIn0.bbaHTEWlnAwGgyVwJngMdQ#18/33.28802/-111.88678
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/33.28829/-111.88644

Thanks,
Greg


On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com
wrote:



 On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote:


 On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Thanks for another TIGER tool.  I used it to look

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Greg Morgan]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Martijn van Exel mart...@openstreetmap.us
wrote:

 It would be nice if we could have SotM US this June be a venue to dispel
 some of the assumptions that seem to exist abroad about the U.S
 OpenStreetMap community. Reducing the U.S. community to a bunch of couch
 potatoes who are more concerned with mapping remote places and importing
 data is not only inaccurate but also disrespectful to all of us who
 tirelessly work to improve our neighborhoods and towns based on good ol'
 ground surveying and local knowledge.

 Perhaps we, as the U.S. chapter, play a role in creating or sustaining
 these false assumptions? Do we need to do a better job highlighting really
 good local mapping efforts? I would welcome opinions and ideas.



As I recall Martijn, there were a number of videos from SOTM US 2013ish
that laid out the issue. It is the size of the US project that complicates
the issue.  By the time your talk came around, you stated the same thing
once again.  By the way, I am so thankful that the US Conference records
these sessions.  I have not been able to attend but I try and view the
videos every once in awhile.

I'd have you focus on something else than trying to dispel the assumptions
about the US.  I have the sense; it is what I have observed; no mater what
is done in the US, we did not do it like the Europeans so it cannot be
good.  That's my perception of their view.

One of the most interesting things I saw from 2013 was the progress report
and the meta tile report that some of the report was based on.  I had to go
look at what some of the mappers had accomplished in these regions.  It was
so cool to see all those buildings that were imported in Chicago.  That was
a major accomplishment.  Arizona has this problematic issue about trying to
make money off their GIS data.  Sadly, there's no cost recovery even if
they think that there is.  Moreover, there is no building data set that I
know of in AZ that could match what Chicago cataloged.  The Chicago area
inspired me to trace as many buildings as I can.  One of the cool areas
that I worked on was the Scottsdale Air Park
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.62087/-111.91182 .  Thanks for the
inspiration Ian!  I got bored.  I moved on to other areas.  However, I
always look for those nice challenging buildings to map.

One of the Carolina meta tiles also inspired me
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/254964599#map=19/35.84273/-78.66457 .
Wow.  Look at that!  The mapper added driveways too.  I saw a number of tag
combinations that I never thought of because of these meta tiles. I
actually setup a daily import to generate my own meta tile report.  I was
shooting for x number of nodes in each tile of the meta tile.  I found out
that Arizona has a number of zero meta tiles.  I also saw that $user in the
East Valley had a number of very dense tiles but no 100K meta tile yet.  As
for me, I got past 50,000 nodes in one meta tile but no 100K meta tiles
yet.  There's so many interesting things to see and map that when I achieve
boredom with an area, I find another interesting area to map.

I always try to think of the glass of orange juice as half full or half
empty.  Either way their's room for Vodka!  So Fredrick builds a tool to
solve a rendering problem.[1]  It is not just the US where a certain image
is painted.  The resulting discussion sounds like a Ford verses Chevy
debate __to_me__.  The debate goes like this, if your Chevy has more nodes
than my Ford, I have to find some vault with the Chevy.  The opportunity to
see a Craig's List or Rand McNally use OSM without all the great or small
contributions would not have been possible with the efforts of OSM
mappers.  The sea of change that OSM has brought is just amazing to me.

Regards,
Greg


[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-May/067194.html
http://fred.dev.openstreetmap.org/density/
http://fred.dev.openstreetmap.org/density/2012.html

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-May/067136.html

Because it means that this is probably dead data without a community behind
it to fix problems and to do updates.

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-May/067138.html

Endless story. That's the anti-imports theory : a map looking
complete does not call for new contributions. Which means that we
should gum out the map from time to time just to build a new community
of contributors when the previous one consider the job done or is
exhausted ;-)

Pieren

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-May/067142.html
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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Greg Morgan]

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Minh Nguyen m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
wrote:

 On 2015-04-03 22:25, Russ Nelson wrote:

 Greg Morgan writes:
* In my case, TIGER isn't all the that bad.

 In some NY counties, TIGER is very good. In other places it is like
 Stevie Wonder was in charge of quality control. What I've heard is
 that the maps they were digitizing off were of MUCH lower resolution
 than we have available now.


 I wonder if it was even about the resolution in some counties. It's as if
 the data was traced off a cartogram, or maybe reconstructed from a table of
 intersections.


I think TIGER is genius.  I think of TIGER like the walking papers
project.  You print out a piece of paper and mark a few Xs and Os on it.
You go back and record the real data.  TIGER serves its primary purpose:
collecting census data by getting boots on the ground in the right area.  I
base my thoughts/opinion on some of the trailer courts, retirement
communities, and travel trailer parks around AZ.  They were so out of
scale.  It felt like that is what could fit on an 8 by 11.5 sized paper
that could be carried by a census worker.

The intersection table ideal feels right.  There have been a number places
where I cut a street at an intersection.  Where that intersection was good
enough for a census worker, it may drive a person crazy that is trying to
use the same data for a visual representation of an area in a car.

Resolution is another good idea. From my experience with Yahoo imagery, I
like to over zoom when I map.  My node placement is vastly different as
zoom 17 verses 1.25m in JOSM.  With MapBox Satellite, I click on the slider
in JOSM.  I can use the arrow keys to over zoom layer 17 down to 50.1m
before I get to the same Bing looking layer.  Woot! Woot!  I just ran
across this video last week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05_eABTrXq8
 It is a very interesting process that MapBox uses to solve many problems
with imagery.

Regards,
Greg
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