Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-17 09:21, Marc Gemis wrote : On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04 in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04 or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as source=survey 2014-07 or source=survey 2014-06-21 . Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import. IMHO, you can only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into another. So please do not use source=survey. Sorry but it is an import and a survey. source=TEC 2014-04 relates to the import of the TEC's data. source=TEC 2014-04 must be in TEC.osm.zip bus stops so that the mapper copies it to OSM. When found in OSM, it means that the bus stop can be removed from the file TEC.osm.zip which shows the work that remains to do. Same process for future versions. source=survey 2014-xx relates to the location, shelter, bench tags etc. that the mapper will add at the time of the import or later and it is a survey. It is the last time that this data was verified and it helps mappers not to verify what has already been verified. There should also be a TEC 2014-04.osm.zip file containing the original TEC data so that the user can compare that data with the data he introduces, for example TEC's uppercase name and OSM's lowercase name. There will be later files like TEC 2014-10.osm.zip at which time a new TEC.osm.zip will be created containing the new changes that must be applied. The user must also be able to see the lines drawn by TEC in case the bus stops do not make the itinerary clear. Here is a file of mine: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2 What remains to be done before we can make realistic updates: publish TEC 2014-04.osm.zip (= present TEC.osm.zip + following tags) add source=TEC 2014-04 to TEC 2014-04.osm.zip add source=survey 2014-04 to TEC 2014-04.osm.zip add website tag new TEC.osm.zip = TEC 2014-04.osm.zip new TEC 2014-04.lines.osm.zip Please note that the particular syntax of the tags is moot. But, please, make propositions instead of saying what it must not be (there are just too many). I can publish a "how to tag the bus stops" in the wiki page if you like. On 2014-06-17 15:19, Ben Abelshausen wrote : On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: the source should a) contain some reference to TEC, Exactly! And (a) is "Exactly! " what source=TEC 2014-04 was proposing. b) any aerial image you have used (probably Bing). This is something that everybody knows, or should know. "Bing 2004" or so, not "Bing". you can only use survey when you go out On 2014-06-17 15:18, Ben Abelshausen wrote : "Survey" does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use That article does not define "Survey" explicitly. It says that it is a survey. dictionary.reference.com to view in detail, especially to inspect, examine, or appraise formally or officially in order to ascertain condition, value, etc. appraise: to estimate the nature, quality, importance, etc.: Nothing in that says that the surveyor must travel. Any means to ascertain the data is acceptable. Cordialement, André.
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Since I would prefer to keep things simple, or at least as simple as possible, I'd prefer to work with one file. To indicate that a stop is not in Openstreetmap yet, I tag it with odbl=new when no stop with its ref is in the file I download from Overpass API. This tag will be stripped automatically by JOSM before the data gets uploaded, just like the created_by tag which I use to make street names available to the person doing the import. They don't make sense in the Brabant-Wallon file, but they seem to have helpful information in the Charleroi file. Since I'm a minimalist who'd prefer to put as few tags possible on stops, platforms, stop positions, shelters, benches and waste baskets, I'd prefer not to add source tags on each and every of the 7x? objects we'll be adding to the DB. OK, I counted the stops of De Lijn in that number. So I add source information on the changesets, which is the accepted practice nowadays, at least that's what I read on the imports list. If you want to add such tags, you can open the file, Ctrl-a to select all objects. Add the tags you want and save the file. Jo 2014-06-23 11:58 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-17 09:21, Marc Gemis wrote : On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import. IMHO, you can only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into another. So please do not use source=survey. Sorry but it is an import *and* a survey. *source=TEC 2014-04* relates to the import of the TEC's data*. **source=TEC 2014-04* must be in TEC.osm.zip bus stops so that the mapper copies it to OSM. When found in OSM, it means that the bus stop can be removed from the file TEC.osm.zip which shows the work that remains to do. Same process for future versions. * source=survey 2014-xx* relates to the location, shelter, bench tags etc. that the mapper will add at the time of the import or later and it is a survey. It is the last time that this data was verified and it helps mappers not to verify what has already been verified. There should also be a *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* file containing the original TEC data so that the user can compare that data with the data he introduces, for example TEC's uppercase name and OSM's lowercase name. There will be later files like *TEC 2014-10.osm.zip* at which time a new TEC.osm.zip will be created containing the new changes that must be applied. The user must also be able to see the lines drawn by TEC in case the bus stops do not make the itinerary clear. Here is a file of mine: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2 What remains to be done before we can make realistic updates: - publish *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* (= present TEC.osm.zip + following tags) - add *source=TEC 2014-04* to *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* - add *source=survey 2014-04* to *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* - add website tag - new TEC.osm.zip = *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* - new *TEC 2014-04.lines.osm.zip* Please note that the particular syntax of the tags is moot. But, please, make propositions instead of saying what it must not be (there are just too many). I can publish a how to tag the bus stops in the wiki page if you like. On 2014-06-17 15:19, Ben Abelshausen wrote : On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: the source should a) contain some reference to TEC, Exactly! And (a) is Exactly! what *source=TEC 2014-04* was proposing. b) any aerial image you have used (probably Bing). This is something that everybody knows, or should know. Bing 2004 or so, not Bing. you can only use survey when you go out On 2014-06-17 15:18, Ben Abelshausen wrote : Survey does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use That article does not define Survey explicitly. It says that it is a survey. dictionary.reference.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/survey to view in detail, especially to inspect, examine, or appraise formally or officially in order to ascertain condition, value, etc. appraise: to estimate the nature, quality, importance, etc.: Nothing
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
IN OPENSTREETMAP SURVEY MEANS: go out physically, see something with your own eyes while standing next to it, add it to the DB. The dictionary definition is not relevant. Jo 2014-06-23 11:58 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-17 09:21, Marc Gemis wrote : On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import. IMHO, you can only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into another. So please do not use source=survey. Sorry but it is an import *and* a survey. *source=TEC 2014-04* relates to the import of the TEC's data*. **source=TEC 2014-04* must be in TEC.osm.zip bus stops so that the mapper copies it to OSM. When found in OSM, it means that the bus stop can be removed from the file TEC.osm.zip which shows the work that remains to do. Same process for future versions. * source=survey 2014-xx* relates to the location, shelter, bench tags etc. that the mapper will add at the time of the import or later and it is a survey. It is the last time that this data was verified and it helps mappers not to verify what has already been verified. There should also be a *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* file containing the original TEC data so that the user can compare that data with the data he introduces, for example TEC's uppercase name and OSM's lowercase name. There will be later files like *TEC 2014-10.osm.zip* at which time a new TEC.osm.zip will be created containing the new changes that must be applied. The user must also be able to see the lines drawn by TEC in case the bus stops do not make the itinerary clear. Here is a file of mine: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2 What remains to be done before we can make realistic updates: - publish *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* (= present TEC.osm.zip + following tags) - add *source=TEC 2014-04* to *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* - add *source=survey 2014-04* to *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* - add website tag - new TEC.osm.zip = *TEC 2014-04.osm.zip* - new *TEC 2014-04.lines.osm.zip* Please note that the particular syntax of the tags is moot. But, please, make propositions instead of saying what it must not be (there are just too many). I can publish a how to tag the bus stops in the wiki page if you like. On 2014-06-17 15:19, Ben Abelshausen wrote : On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: the source should a) contain some reference to TEC, Exactly! And (a) is Exactly! what *source=TEC 2014-04* was proposing. b) any aerial image you have used (probably Bing). This is something that everybody knows, or should know. Bing 2004 or so, not Bing. you can only use survey when you go out On 2014-06-17 15:18, Ben Abelshausen wrote : Survey does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use That article does not define Survey explicitly. It says that it is a survey. dictionary.reference.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/survey to view in detail, especially to inspect, examine, or appraise formally or officially in order to ascertain condition, value, etc. appraise: to estimate the nature, quality, importance, etc.: Nothing in that says that the surveyor must travel. Any means to ascertain the data is acceptable. Cordialement, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
I managed to get the script to the next 'level'. For lines for which all stops are mapped, it's possible to create skeleton route relations for all the variations. See here for an example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/RoutesFor%20W%20BXL%20-%20Waterloo.osm Give me a sign if you plan to actually use it. If you do, keep in mind 2 routes already exist for that line, which I created by adding the stops manually. Those 2 contain ways too, of course. It takes a bit of fiddling to add them to the route_master and transfer the stops from 2 of the skeleton routes to them. If you want other skeleton routes to experiment with, let me know. It's easier when no routes for such a line exist yet in the OSM data. But then you still have to add all the composing ways yourself, of course. In the MAPCSS I have code to visually highlight all the stops when you temporarily add odbl=yes as a tag to the route. For those interested in the subject, I think it's best to simply show it all during a Google hangout. Cheers, Jo 2014-06-17 23:20 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-17 22:41, Jo wrote : What I fail to see is why I'd need to contact him. It doesn't depend on him at all whether the import is approved or not. No but he probably knows much about how being approved and it's his interest to help you Anyway, the question is: Is that wiki page good enough for submitting it or does it need to be improved? and he might know that. Not me. Up to you (but please help my finger cramp ;-)) André. Jo 2014-06-17 22:07 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Jo, Isn't Andy Allan making the Transport Map? You might try to get advice from him. He would certainly be keen to have us on his map! I once contacted him for a bike map trifle. Took some time but he very kindly replied. Whoever that is anyway. Fingers crossed. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Share-Alike doesn't make much sense for data. Agree we should ask TEC to go for CC BY or CC 0. Kind regards, Pieter On 2014-06-18 23:12, Jo wrote: I posted on the imports list. This is the first answer I got: Hi, I'm sorry to bear bad news, but the sharealike aspect of CC-BY-SA 4.0 means that you cannot import the data into OSM, since CC-BY-SA 4.0 data can be publicly adapted only under ___the same___ licence (i.e. not under OSM's ODbL licence) - or, more accurately, it must be publicly reused one of the licences listed in the first section of this page: https://creativecommons.org/compatiblelicenses Dan Can we ask TEC directly to give Openstreetmap explicit permission to reuse the data and redistribute as ODbL? Or whether they'd consider releasing the data under ODbL as well? Do we have a contact with them who can make such decisions? Jo 2014-06-18 15:18 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com mailto:winfi...@gmail.com: I managed to get the script to the next 'level'. For lines for which all stops are mapped, it's possible to create skeleton route relations for all the variations. See here for an example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/RoutesFor%20W%20BXL%20-%20Waterloo.osm Give me a sign if you plan to actually use it. If you do, keep in mind 2 routes already exist for that line, which I created by adding the stops manually. Those 2 contain ways too, of course. It takes a bit of fiddling to add them to the route_master and transfer the stops from 2 of the skeleton routes to them. If you want other skeleton routes to experiment with, let me know. It's easier when no routes for such a line exist yet in the OSM data. But then you still have to add all the composing ways yourself, of course. In the MAPCSS I have code to visually highlight all the stops when you temporarily add odbl=yes as a tag to the route. For those interested in the subject, I think it's best to simply show it all during a Google hangout. Cheers, Jo 2014-06-17 23:20 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-17 22:41, Jo wrote : What I fail to see is why I'd need to contact him. It doesn't depend on him at all whether the import is approved or not. No but he probably knows much about how being approved and it's his interest to help you Anyway, the question is: Is that wiki page good enough for submitting it or does it need to be improved? and he might know that. Not me. Up to you (but please help my finger cramp ;-)) André. Jo 2014-06-17 22:07 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Jo, Isn't Andy Allan making the Transport Map? You might try to get advice from him. He would certainly be keen to have us on his map! I once contacted him for a bike map trifle. Took some time but he very kindly replied. Whoever that is anyway. Fingers crossed. André. -- +32 486 74 71 22 Open Knowledge Foundation Belgium http://okfn.be Open Transport Working Group OKFN http://transport.okfn.org ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-18 23:12, Jo wrote : I posted on the imports list. This is the first answer I got: Hi, I'm sorry to bear bad news, but the sharealike aspect of CC-BY-SA 4.0 means that you cannot import the data into OSM, since CC-BY-SA 4.0 data can be publicly adapted only under ___the same___ licence (i.e. not under OSM's ODbL licence) - or, more accurately, it must be publicly reused one of the licences listed in the first section of this page: https://creativecommons.org/compatiblelicenses Dan Can we ask TEC directly to give Openstreetmap explicit permission to reuse the data and redistribute as ODbL? Or whether they'd consider releasing the data under ODbL as well? Do we have a contact with them who can make such decisions? PATRIS Antoine antoine.pat...@tec-wl.be I cc:ed you a reply in which he was very cooperative and he implicitly agreed that we use their data. He's the GIS project manager. You said why bother them? ;-) I hope it's the only grief from Dan. Я могу исправить французский. Thanks. In'ch Allah. André. Jo 2014-06-18 15:18 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com mailto:winfi...@gmail.com: I managed to get the script to the next 'level'. For lines for which all stops are mapped, it's possible to create skeleton route relations for all the variations. See here for an example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/RoutesFor%20W%20BXL%20-%20Waterloo.osm Give me a sign if you plan to actually use it. If you do, keep in mind 2 routes already exist for that line, which I created by adding the stops manually. Those 2 contain ways too, of course. It takes a bit of fiddling to add them to the route_master and transfer the stops from 2 of the skeleton routes to them. If you want other skeleton routes to experiment with, let me know. It's easier when no routes for such a line exist yet in the OSM data. But then you still have to add all the composing ways yourself, of course. In the MAPCSS I have code to visually highlight all the stops when you temporarily add odbl=yes as a tag to the route. For those interested in the subject, I think it's best to simply show it all during a Google hangout. Cheers, Jo 2014-06-17 23:20 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-17 22:41, Jo wrote : What I fail to see is why I'd need to contact him. It doesn't depend on him at all whether the import is approved or not. No but he probably knows much about how being approved and it's his interest to help you Anyway, the question is: Is that wiki page good enough for submitting it or does it need to be improved? and he might know that. Not me. Up to you (but please help my finger cramp ;-)) André. Jo 2014-06-17 22:07 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Jo, Isn't Andy Allan making the Transport Map? You might try to get advice from him. He would certainly be keen to have us on his map! I once contacted him for a bike map trifle. Took some time but he very kindly replied. Whoever that is anyway. Fingers crossed. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import. IMHO, you can only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into another. So please do not use source=survey. regards m ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-17 00:07, Jo wrote : Answers inline. 2014-06-16 23:13 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-16 01:58, Jo wrote : Hi, The conversion is done. Municipality names are converted to lower case, restoring the accents. Route_ref is calculated. Many thanks Jo! You're welcome A few remarks. Oh no! Should I drop the TEC project? As there were as usual no replies on this list to my remarks about missing bus line numbers and accent-less uppercased place names, I wrote to the TEC myself. They recognized my remarks as valid points and they said that they will fix these problems, but no sooner than September. I'll cc: you. I wonder if it wouldn't be wiser to let's start ! in September with that data rather than do it twice. Why would we be doing it twice? What they will provide sometime after September should have exactly the same contents as what my scripts are calculating from the data they provide. Anyway, I don't see why it was needed to bother TEC with this. They provide the data as is and it's our responsability to convert it to something we can work with. I'm actually rather surprised you got a positive answer from them. I don't understand you. Don't you find interesting if they used our lowercase names and we would just have to copy theirs in the future rather that have to compare their new uppercase names with the previous uppercase names to detect changes and make the corresponding changes in our lowercase names? More generally, don't you think that cooperation to synchronize with them is fruitful? If they know us, they might use our map and even, why not, update it themselves. Don't you like that hope? Whatever I try, I see accent-less uppercased place names in your file. What did you try? 2 files found their way into the zip file. I hope you were looking at the most recent one. I'm recreating them now. Like a ⅔ sized *.bz2 an *.osm.zip file is supposed to contain a single *.osm to be loaded as such in JOSM. Rather than explaining what I did I wrote in the frame below a skeleton of a procedure for the wiki. Failing other instructions, I acted logically with what you announced as The OSM file In the mean time it's possible to determine whether a stop is new or not. i.e. if a stop with that ref is already present in the Openstreetmap data I'm downloading with Overpass. Basing your comparison on the data will get you into trouble. How will you do in the future when both OSM and TEC data will contain the same tags with possible different values because either TEC corrected an error or OSM corrected an error that remains in TEC? How will you know that the data has been updated? It's easy by using the source tags which are made for that and that I recommend below. Now if you firmly intend not to use the source tag, PLEASE say it because I'm in the process of proposing a wiki update to make this easier with ISO dates and well explained and I would save me the hassle. I thought that you had found the line numbers, but I don't see them. They are in the route_ref key. Where did you expect to find them? In the route_ref key that I did not see. Plus, since beginning of May, I am asking if anyone saw line numbers. Especially with the SPW viewer that does not work. The data is supposed to come in shape and corollary files in a zip to be loaded right into JOSM. I did that. No line numbers I could see. I suppose TEC consider that the data must be simple to use (simply by loading the shapefiles) and not by difficult trickery. I wrote that I found this: I made the following TEC = OSM tag conversion. POT_NOM_HA = name POT_ID = ref POT_ZONE_T = zone There are two files containing TEC data. TEC__mm.osm.bz2 containing the converted latest TEC data. TEC_todo.osm.bz2 containing the data remaining to be moved to OSM. Start JOSM and FileDownload from OSM the area containing the data you want to update. Be careful, especially when loading new OSM data, to always have the correct layer selected. FileNew Layer (getting selected) FileOpen Location TEC_todo.osm.bz2 (loading TEC data to it) Select TEC layer and choose and select a TEC stop to update, usually a pair of. If it does not exist in OSM, EditMerge selection to OSM layer. If it exists: Check if source=survey -mm equals TEC -mm yes: you can Copy all Keys/Values from TEC and EditPaste tags them to OSM no: check for a Note explaining that a TEC value was incorrect and CopyPaste only the rest Be sure that survey -mm and TEC -mm are updated to the new values: this is what is going to tell to remove the bus stop from TEC_todo.osm.bz2 Move the bus stop to the correct location, using Bing or other map layer. Periodically update the OSM data, using TEC buses update and checking that it updates what you've done. Loop for other stops. My file was displaying the
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-17 09:21, Marc Gemis wrote : On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import. IMHO, you can only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into another. So please do not use source=survey. Survey is not just going out and check the bus position but ITHO verb http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/survey (used with object) 2.to view in detail, especially to inspect, examine, or appraise formally or officially in order to ascertain condition, value, etc. that is, ascertaining, making sure that all data associated with the bus stop is correct. Importing the TEC data is the reason for adding/updating *TEC 2014-04* (allowing to check that the import was done). As the user applying this import is also requested (see instructions) to adjust the location of the bus stop (not by going out but simply with Bing etc.), all the data will be ascertained after doing that (unless other data is to be verified) and then the user can add *survey 2014-04* or later. *survey 2014-04* is not an indication of the import but is/should be in the imported data as a facility for the user to just copy it instead of having to type it for each bus stop. He may keep it, change it or delete it but you should not tell him not to use it. So please *do* use source=survey during the import, but (*obviously*) *only* after ascertaining all the data. It indicates that you have adjusted the location etc... and that it must not be done 10 times. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
From http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Annotation source = survey Track from GPS unit (usually GPX fomat) or other physical survey; suggested addition - survey:date http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:survey:date=-MM-DD so IMHO checking the position on aerial images is not included the source should a) contain some reference to TEC, b) any aerial image you have used (probably Bing). regards m On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-06-17 09:21, Marc Gemis wrote : On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import. IMHO, you can only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into another. So please do not use source=survey. Survey is not just going out and check the bus position but ITHO verb http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/survey (used with object) 2. to view in detail, especially to inspect, examine, or appraise formally or officially in order to ascertain condition, value, etc. that is, ascertaining, making sure that all data associated with the bus stop is correct. Importing the TEC data is the reason for adding/updating *TEC 2014-04* (allowing to check that the import was done). As the user applying this import is also requested (see instructions) to adjust the location of the bus stop (not by going out but simply with Bing etc.), all the data will be ascertained after doing that (unless other data is to be verified) and then the user can add *survey 2014-04* or later. *survey 2014-04* is not an indication of the import but is/should be in the imported data as a facility for the user to just copy it instead of having to type it for each bus stop. He may keep it, change it or delete it but you should not tell him not to use it. So please *do* use source=survey during the import, but (*obviously*) *only* after ascertaining all the data. It indicates that you have adjusted the location etc... and that it must not be done 10 times. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Hi, Survey does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use Also make sure to check the import guidelines before importing anything: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: the source should a) contain some reference to TEC, b) any aerial image you have used (probably Bing). Exactly! ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
I created a page to describe the import of TEC data. Can somebody have a look at it before I send it to the imports mailing list? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/PT_TEC_Wallonie_BE_Import I have to say I'm a bit pessimistic about getting it approved. I've been lurking on the imports list for a while now and it's a bit depressing... But we can always try, of course. Even though I realise in advance it will get shot down on the silly dedicated import account rule alone. In the mean time I'm doing test edits, to make sure the data conversion went properly. It looks fine, as far as I'm concerned. Some abbreviations don't get expanded properly yet (notably ones with a space after LE). I do those by hand. Whoever wants to participate in adding these stops must realise it not simply a matter of dragging them to their proper location, but also the names need to be checked for consistency. The zones and the calculated route_refs should be correct by now. The village names are mostly properly converted and accents are put back where they belong. Notify me if you find errors. I'm always prepared to do a Google hangout in French, English or even Dutch (for those who'd want to practice) to explain how I set up JOSM to make the whole process more efficient. Additional buttons on the task bar for presets and searches. dedicated MAPCSS style, which highlights the stops and routes you are working on and something which creates display names from distinct tags, so the routes get sorted in a better way in the relations list. Cheers, Polyglot 2014-06-17 15:18 GMT+02:00 Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com: Hi, Survey does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use Also make sure to check the import guidelines before importing anything: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Julien, Peux-tu vérifier si je n'ai pas fais trop de bêtises en adaptant cette page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC Jo 2014-04-25 8:26 GMT+02:00 Julien Fastré jul...@fastre.info: Hi ! Good news ! (Alleluia :-) ) The TEC is publishing now data under Open Data Licence ! On geoportail.wallonie.be, the data Poteaux d'arrêts (bus stop) and ligne de bus (bus lines) are now under CC BY-SA 4.0 international Licence : http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?mdUUID=47676af7-aab3-4d2e-9c9c-cd86e7ad7241 http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?mdUUID=a5dc5bc7-3c37-4783-9c41-27ce2f83f3ae The schedules are also available here : http://opendata.awt.be/organization/groupe-tec (in a Belgian format... glups... I still haven't opened it yet). We are now allowed to import those data's in OSM. Please, do not batch import ! I saw in the previous version a lot of mistakes, comparing data to Bing! Imagery and also to Walloon's orthophotos. We may be more accurate than the original data :-) At Champs Libres, we are planning to provide an online comparator from TEC data to OSM data, using the old and new public transport schema. This will allow to see where are missing bus stops, where they are mispelled, etc. We will do it during May. Julien ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-17 20:15, Jo wrote : I created a page to describe the import of TEC data. Can somebody have a look at it before I send it to the imports mailing list? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/PT_TEC_Wallonie_BE_Import I have to say I'm a bit pessimistic about getting it approved. I've been lurking on the imports list for a while now and it's a bit depressing... But we can always try, of course. Even though I realise in advance it will get shot down on the silly dedicated import account rule alone. Ouch! I didn't expect that difficulty! But I have a very fundamental remark. Are you really doing an import or are you providing us modified data to ease our tagging? Would using Julien's web page be called an import? Is making the process easier more an import? Was the Walloon bus line tagging done so far an import? Is continuing it more an import? I never looked a that problem but I think that what they're after is huge careless data dumping. It's none of that. So my question is: must we really declare that as an import or continue our gentle tagging business on the quiet? Why tempting fate? In the mean time I'm doing test edits, to make sure the data conversion went properly. It looks fine, as far as I'm concerned. Some abbreviations don't get expanded properly yet (notably ones with a space after LE). I do those by hand. Whoever wants to participate in adding these stops must realise it not simply a matter of dragging them to their proper location, but also the names need to be checked for consistency. I told you I had thought of picking the names from OSM inside a circle around the stop and checking the uppercase for similarity. There's a Perl string similarity computing module. Did you consider that? The zones and the calculated route_refs should be correct by now. The village names are mostly properly converted and accents are put back where they belong. Notify me if you find errors. I'm always prepared to do a Google hangout in French, English or even Dutch (for those who'd want to practice) to explain how I set up JOSM to make the whole process more efficient. Additional buttons on the task bar for presets and searches. dedicated MAPCSS style, which highlights the stops and routes you are working on and something which creates display names from distinct tags, so the routes get sorted in a better way in the relations list. Good luck whatever you do, André. Cheers, Polyglot 2014-06-17 15:18 GMT+02:00 Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com mailto:ben.abelshau...@gmail.com: Hi, Survey does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use Also make sure to check the import guidelines before importing anything: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
It's a lot of data and it's coming from an outside source, so yes it's an import. No way to get around that by calling it anything different. It's best to go through the proper channels. That way nobody can say we didn't at least try to do things the right way. If we fall flat on our noses, so be it. I had always thought data like this is (and addresses) is something we want to have in OSM. And visiting each bus stop (or house) is simply not practical. By the time you did all of them, you'd have to start over again. I do agree sometimes imports hurt the community, which is why I'd like to get the community involved as much as possible. I also think we're going about this the right way. This is not a data dump. We are integrating the new data with what's already present in OSM. I often find myself improving the topology of the roads while adding stops and shelters and benches and platforms. For Flanders we have now the street names in a WMS layer, so during validation I'm also adding those for the roads I touched (adding nodes or splitting). Unfortunately it's extremely time consuming to do it this way, but it's still more efficient than visiting 7 bus stops all across the country and jotting down their details. Jo 2014-06-17 21:27 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-17 20:15, Jo wrote : I created a page to describe the import of TEC data. Can somebody have a look at it before I send it to the imports mailing list? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/PT_TEC_Wallonie_BE_Import I have to say I'm a bit pessimistic about getting it approved. I've been lurking on the imports list for a while now and it's a bit depressing... But we can always try, of course. Even though I realise in advance it will get shot down on the silly dedicated import account rule alone. Ouch! I didn't expect that difficulty! But I have a very fundamental remark. Are you really doing an import or are you providing us modified data to ease our tagging? Would using Julien's web page be called an import? Is making the process easier more an import? Was the Walloon bus line tagging done so far an import? Is continuing it more an import? I never looked a that problem but I think that what they're after is huge careless data dumping. It's none of that. So my question is: must we really declare that as an import or continue our gentle tagging business on the quiet? Why tempting fate? In the mean time I'm doing test edits, to make sure the data conversion went properly. It looks fine, as far as I'm concerned. Some abbreviations don't get expanded properly yet (notably ones with a space after LE). I do those by hand. Whoever wants to participate in adding these stops must realise it not simply a matter of dragging them to their proper location, but also the names need to be checked for consistency. I told you I had thought of picking the names from OSM inside a circle around the stop and checking the uppercase for similarity. There's a Perl string similarity computing module. Did you consider that? The zones and the calculated route_refs should be correct by now. The village names are mostly properly converted and accents are put back where they belong. Notify me if you find errors. I'm always prepared to do a Google hangout in French, English or even Dutch (for those who'd want to practice) to explain how I set up JOSM to make the whole process more efficient. Additional buttons on the task bar for presets and searches. dedicated MAPCSS style, which highlights the stops and routes you are working on and something which creates display names from distinct tags, so the routes get sorted in a better way in the relations list. Good luck whatever you do, André. Cheers, Polyglot 2014-06-17 15:18 GMT+02:00 Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com: Hi, Survey does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning, going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use Also make sure to check the import guidelines before importing anything: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Jo, Isn't Andy Allan making the Transport Map? You might try to get advice from him. He would certainly be keen to have us on his map! I once contacted him for a bike map trifle. Took some time but he very kindly replied. Whoever that is anyway. Fingers crossed. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-17 22:41, Jo wrote : What I fail to see is why I'd need to contact him. It doesn't depend on him at all whether the import is approved or not. No but he probably knows much about how being approved and it's his interest to help you Anyway, the question is: Is that wiki page good enough for submitting it or does it need to be improved? and he might know that. Not me. Up to you (but please help my finger cramp ;-)) André. Jo 2014-06-17 22:07 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Jo, Isn't Andy Allan making the Transport Map? You might try to get advice from him. He would certainly be keen to have us on his map! I once contacted him for a bike map trifle. Took some time but he very kindly replied. Whoever that is anyway. Fingers crossed. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-06-16 01:58, Jo wrote : Hi, The conversion is done. Municipality names are converted to lower case, restoring the accents. Route_ref is calculated. Many thanks Jo! A few remarks. As there were as usual no replies on this list to my remarks about missing bus line numbers and accent-less uppercased place names, I wrote to the TEC myself. They recognized my remarks as valid points and they said that they will fix these problems, but no sooner than September. I'll cc: you. I wonder if it wouldn't be wiser to let's start ! in September with that data rather than do it twice. Whatever I try, I see accent-less uppercased place names in your file. I thought that you had found the line numbers, but I don't see them. My file was displaying the lines (without number). Yours not. Here is an additional layer to display them. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2 All that's missing at the moment is comparison with existing data already present in OSM. I'm already doing that for the stops of De Lijn, so the process exists. It merely needs to be adapted a bit in the scripts I created. I'm not adding source on the objects anymore. Instead I add source tags on the changeset as a whole. On one hand, using a source= tag is highly recommended in the bus stops and lines, if not required. On the other, you must of course be able to tell data that was added by copying the elements of your file from OSM.org data that existed before your publication and that must be updated. It's not a matter of how *you* make updates and tag change-sets, but of how *the mappers* will do it. They'll FileUpload those updates the normal way, without your change-sets tags, I don't know how to do it. If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . As for the operator, I prefer to use simply TEC. No problem for me with *operator*, but (Sorry Julien, fourth time) if you use *network*=tec-wl.be that's not an URL and that is not clickable here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464 although we agreed using an URL (*network*=http://tec-wl.be which is clickable here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259) then please add website=http://tec-wl.be. The OSM file with all the stops in Wallonia can be found here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/TEC.osm.zip I think you should say that it must not be used for updates right now. What we still need to discuss: The topics mentioned above and Is it OK to keep the zones as 4 digits? For me it's better, as it makes them unique. It's not what can be read at the stops in the streets though (There you'll find the last 2 digits). I find the 4 digits all-right because if you don't want to see the first two you just close your left eye but if they weren't there and if you wanted to see them it wouldn't be possible ;-) What do the left two digits mean? Wouldn't that be the place for the line number? Following be.wa.? Cheers, André. Polyglot 2014-06-16 1:38 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Hi, I'm conducting an offline TEC conversation business with Jo and I'm impressed. You will soon be able to confidently buy TEC tickets and use the OSM transport map ;-) I have just two tag remarks. For the third time (Julien), if we want to use URLs, we'd better use URLs. network=tec-wl.be http://tec-wl.be is not an URL as you can see by not being able to click on it here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464. network=http://tec-wl.be is one as you can see by being able to click on it here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259. I recommend adding *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* Much like Key:source http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source indicates and I am presently proposing to amend slightly as shown below. The bulk import scenario was clearly written with in mind the idea to maintain a remaining-to do TEC file. Suppose an *.osm file is built from an imported source. The map contributors are requested to move/update the map elements to osm.org http://osm.org after verifications such as coordinates. If the *.osm map elements contain a survey value such as source=survey import-date, then a program can find out by checking for an equal or later survey date what map elements have been moved/updated to osm.org http://osm.org and
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Answers inline. 2014-06-16 23:13 GMT+02:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-06-16 01:58, Jo wrote : Hi, The conversion is done. Municipality names are converted to lower case, restoring the accents. Route_ref is calculated. Many thanks Jo! You're welcome A few remarks. Oh no! As there were as usual no replies on this list to my remarks about missing bus line numbers and accent-less uppercased place names, I wrote to the TEC myself. They recognized my remarks as valid points and they said that they will fix these problems, but no sooner than September. I'll cc: you. I wonder if it wouldn't be wiser to let's start ! in September with that data rather than do it twice. Why would we be doing it twice? What they will provide sometime after September should have exactly the same contents as what my scripts are calculating from the data they provide. Anyway, I don't see why it was needed to bother TEC with this. They provide the data as is and it's our responsability to convert it to something we can work with. I'm actually rather surprised you got a positive answer from them. Whatever I try, I see accent-less uppercased place names in your file. What did you try? 2 files found their way into the zip file. I hope you were looking at the most recent one. I'm recreating them now. In the mean time it's possible to determine whether a stop is new or not. i.e. if a stop with that ref is already present in the Openstreetmap data I'm downloading with Overpass. I thought that you had found the line numbers, but I don't see them. They are in the route_ref key. Where did you expect to find them? My file was displaying the lines (without number). Yours not. Here is an additional layer to display them. I never saw your file before I started. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2 All that's missing at the moment is comparison with existing data already present in OSM. I'm already doing that for the stops of De Lijn, so the process exists. It merely needs to be adapted a bit in the scripts I created. I'm not adding source on the objects anymore. Instead I add source tags on the changeset as a whole. On one hand, using a source= tag is highly recommended in the bus stops and lines, if not required. It's certainly not required. The tendency is towards adding source on changesets nowadays. Look at buildings in France to see what adding source on objects does. On the other, you must of course be able to tell data that was added by copying the elements of your file from OSM.org data that existed before your publication and that must be updated. It's not a matter of how *you* make updates and tag change-sets, but of how *the mappers* will do it. They'll FileUpload those updates the normal way, without your change-sets tags, I don't know how to do it. People are responsible for adding those changeset tags themselves. If you use *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted from the remaining-to-be-updated file. If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06** TEC 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21* . As for the operator, I prefer to use simply TEC. No problem for me with *operator*, but (Sorry Julien, fourth time) if you use *network*=tec-wl.be that's not an URL and that is not clickable here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464 although we agreed using an URL (*network*=http://tec-wl.be which is clickable here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259) then please add website= http://tec-wl.be. I don't see the need to add network. Especially if it would be duplicating what was already in operator. Which entity the stop belongs to, can be determined in a trivial way from the first letter of the ref of the stop (for TEC, in the first digit for the stops of De Lijn). That's what network could be used for, but it's not needed. The OSM file with all the stops in Wallonia can be found here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/TEC.osm.zip I think you should say that it must not be used for updates right now. As always, everybody can use it: 1. at their own risk and on their own responsability, 2. by double checking everything is correct before pressing upload. That's what I'm doing at the moment. For all the stops I'm adding, I'm double checking the position and the tags. It's not a matter of simply bulk uploading them. If it were that simple, I could simply do it in one go. What we still need to discuss: The topics mentioned above and Is it OK to keep the zones as 4 digits? For me
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Hi, I'm conducting an offline TEC conversation business with Jo and I'm impressed. You will soon be able to confidently buy TEC tickets and use the OSM transport map ;-) I have just two tag remarks. For the third time (Julien), if we want to use URLs, we'd better use URLs. network=tec-wl.be is not an URL as you can see by not being able to click on it here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464. network=http://tec-wl.be is one as you can see by being able to click on it here http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259. I recommend adding *source=survey 2014-06 TEC 2014-04* Much like Key:source http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source indicates and I am presently proposing to amend slightly as shown below. The bulk import scenario was clearly written with in mind the idea to maintain a remaining-to do TEC file. Suppose an *.osm file is built from an imported source. The map contributors are requested to move/update the map elements to osm.org after verifications such as coordinates. If the *.osm map elements contain a survey value such as source=survey import-date, then a program can find out by checking for an equal or later survey date what map elements have been moved/updated to osm.org and hence build a remaining.osm file containing what remains to be done. A FIXME can be added at import time to already existing osm.org elements to warn about the ongoing import. Cheers, André. Following this discussion here is a proposed clarification to Key:source http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source. The goal is to define the word, make date mandatory, use ISO format, define per source tag meaning. Is there any objection or suggestion for changes? *survey* -mm[-dd] (with one blank and an /ISO/ 8601 http://www.google.be/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=ssource=webcd=3cad=rjauact=8sqi=2ved=0CDAQFjACurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iso.org%2Fiso%2Ffr%2Fhome%2Fstandards%2Fiso8601.htmei=X3qZU_CEPNHR4QT34YGwCgusg=AFQjCNHMm5_cA8CzTjEvrWYQc5GZ9K1wLgsig2=m6xdSXuaBGqt6Qlj0tCfTwbvm=bv.68911936,d.bGE format date) can be used within the data of any source.KEY=* or source=* tag to indicate that, on that date, the source(s) of KEY were the most recent and the data was verified to be correct for that KEY. In source=*, survey means the same for all possible (required) keys (even those absent by default), but it can be overridden by survey in some source.KEY tags. survey helps to avoid making already done verifications, especially because a source publication date is not a verification date. survey can contain the date of dateless sources like visual or knowledge. It can help humanly assisted bulk imports. Please update the survey date of what you verify (a substantial time later), even if you don't add survey dates yourself. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Hi, I announced that I had made an OSM file from which it is very easy to copy with JOSM (EditMerge Selection) TEC bus stops to the OSM map. I said that there were problems to discuss, principally that the data contains no bus line numbers that municipality names are in uppercase and with spelling errors (no accents) Nobody replied. So that I finally put this file aside so that nobody would start tagging incomplete data. Julien published https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC I discovered my name in it, saying that I made an OSM file. Just that. As Julien says that he does not find interesting to hear problems reports repeated, I continued waiting. Then Jo got in contact with me and told me that he had made the same file as mine, but without lines. Then I found that in the above page, my name had been replaced with Polyglot without warning. Clearly, TEC is no longer my job. It is now Jo's job and I was glad to stop waiting. Jo wrote "I'm planning to convert the village names to normal capitalisation". Uppercasing is easy, but not correcting the spelling mistakes. I can try to do that. Just ask André. PS: I reported to SPW that the Géocatalogue (listing TEC's data) is perfectly empty; they forwarded the info. It happens to those who selected another language than French (in hope to see it round the corner). ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Hi Andre, I'm almost done converting the village names to proper capitalisation, including accents. I also have a system set up to calculate route_ref. It's slower than I would like, but it works. (Reading the data into postGIS that is). Most of the work involved is stuff I had already done for the data of De Lijn. The data from TEC comes in a different format and I'm looking for a more efficient way to process it. Inserting line by line is not the way to go. I couldn't find your file, so I had to start from scratch. Just a few more days and I'll release it. On Jun 13, 2014 10:37 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I announced that I had made an OSM file from which it is very easy to copy with JOSM (EditMerge Selection) TEC bus stops to the OSM map. I said that there were problems to discuss, principally - that the data contains no bus line numbers - that municipality names are in uppercase and with spelling errors (no accents) Nobody replied. So that I finally put this file aside so that nobody would start tagging incomplete data. Julien published https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC I discovered my name in it, saying that I made an OSM file. Just that. As Julien says that he does not find interesting to hear problems reports repeated, I continued waiting. Then Jo got in contact with me and told me that he had made the same file as mine, but without lines. Then I found that in the above page, my name had been replaced with Polyglot without warning. Clearly, TEC is no longer my job. It is now Jo's job and I was glad to stop waiting. Jo wrote I'm planning to convert the village names to normal capitalisation. Uppercasing is easy, but not correcting the spelling mistakes. I can try to do that. Just ask André. PS: I reported to SPW that the Géocatalogue http://geoportail.wallonie.be/en/home/geocatalogue.html?activeMDTypeTab=search-theme=allsearch-subtheme=allsearch-text=search-tri=jcr%3Atitlesearch-display=small (listing TEC's data) is perfectly empty; they forwarded the info. It happens to those who selected another language than French (in hope to see it round the corner). ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-05-13 16:57, Julien Fastré wrote : We do agree with Champs Libres to install a WMS service with TEC information (bus lines stops). I had a problem to do that: we do have reached our quota of IPv4 addresses on our servers and we would do it with IPv6-only (tunnels IPv4-Ipv6 with sixxs or something else should work and assure the connectivity). You can configure a host as a NAT router. Assuming it's on host a.b.c.b (Internet address) and 192.168.0.0 is a local LAN, it would translate a.b.c.b:8080 - 192.168.0.X:80 to access http port 80 of host X through port 8080 of the former. Cheers, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Le 13/05/14 18:18, André Pirard a écrit : On 2014-05-13 16:57, Julien Fastré wrote : We do agree with Champs Libres to install a WMS service with TEC information (bus lines stops). I had a problem to do that: we do have reached our quota of IPv4 addresses on our servers and we would do it with IPv6-only (tunnels IPv4-Ipv6 with sixxs or something else should work and assure the connectivity). You can configure a host as a NAT router. Assuming it's on host a.b.c.b (Internet address) and 192.168.0.0 is a local LAN, it would translate a.b.c.b:8080 - 192.168.0.X:80 to access http port 80 of host X through port 8080 of the former. Regarding our current installation, we had to reject this possibility because this should not meet our requirements... More details in private if you need this. Thanks! Julien ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
On 2014-04-25 08:26, Julien Fastré wrote : Hi ! Good news ! (Alleluia :-) ) The TEC is publishing now data under Open Data Licence ! On geoportail.wallonie.be, the data "Poteaux d'arrêts" (bus stop) and "ligne de bus" (bus lines) are now under CC BY-SA 4.0 international Licence : http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?mdUUID=47676af7-aab3-4d2e-9c9c-cd86e7ad7241 http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?mdUUID=a5dc5bc7-3c37-4783-9c41-27ce2f83f3ae The schedules are also available here : http://opendata.awt.be/organization/groupe-tec (in a "Belgian format"... glups... I still haven't opened it yet). We are now allowed to import those data's in OSM. Thanks Julien. I'd gladly add this to my list of JOSM imagery sites but I see no WMS configuration. Is there a JOSM configuration? If I try to look at the Arcgis configuration you mention http://geodata.tec-wl.be/arcgis/rest/services/Poteaux/MapServer http://geodata.tec-wl.be/arcgis/rest/services/Lignes/MapServer I get a 403 error. How can it be used? Please, do not batch import ! I saw in the previous version a lot of mistakes, comparing data to Bing! Imagery and also to Walloon's orthophotos. We may be more accurate than the original data :-) What about importing the data to a TEC.osm file, splitting this file into pieces to distribute to volunteers that would use JOSM to overlay them on top of OSM and other maps, rectify them subpiece by subpieces and move them to the OSM layer to update? I see references to OSM import tasking managers. I'm glad to learn that the Walloon othophotos can be used to check, understand and put right other maps. I never fully understood the only phrase of their terms that seems to apply to us. What does "ligne graphique" mean? Can a SPW map be used to rectify another SPW map? ;-) Beware of Bing! !!! It has an offset error at high zoom in many places responsible for many OSM imprecisions. The recently mentioned Mapbox seems to have the same images as Bing! but with a different offset. I didn't check (yet) if it exhibits the same errors as Bing! At Champs Libres, we are planning to provide an online "comparator" from TEC data to OSM data, using the old and new public transport schema. This will allow to see where are missing bus stops, where they are mispelled, etc. We will do it during May. If the SPW keeps not making a WMS server, what about making a Champs Libres proxy serving WMS? This would allow doing what you say together with OSM updates while staying in the same JOSM window. Cheers, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] TEC Open Data: let's start !
Hi, Good news indeed. I did a quick search on the format. It uses the BLTAC format (Belgium Local Transport Automatic Connexion).If you open data you will get a bunch of text files not very easy to understand. Hopefully, they gave also the documentation of the BLTAC format[1] and I found a csv version (a bit more human friendly) here[2] with at least the coordinates of the bus stops. Martin [1] http://opendata.awt.be/dataset/documentation-des-donnees-horaires-tec** [2] http://datahub.io/fr/dataset/tec On 25/04/14 08:26, Julien Fastré wrote: Hi ! Good news ! (Alleluia :-) ) The TEC is publishing now data under Open Data Licence ! On geoportail.wallonie.be, the data Poteaux d'arrêts (bus stop) and ligne de bus (bus lines) are now under CC BY-SA 4.0 international Licence : http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?mdUUID=47676af7-aab3-4d2e-9c9c-cd86e7ad7241 http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?mdUUID=a5dc5bc7-3c37-4783-9c41-27ce2f83f3ae The schedules are also available here : http://opendata.awt.be/organization/groupe-tec (in a Belgian format... glups... I still haven't opened it yet). We are now allowed to import those data's in OSM. Please, do not batch import ! I saw in the previous version a lot of mistakes, comparing data to Bing! Imagery and also to Walloon's orthophotos. We may be more accurate than the original data :-) At Champs Libres, we are planning to provide an online comparator from TEC data to OSM data, using the old and new public transport schema. This will allow to see where are missing bus stops, where they are mispelled, etc. We will do it during May. Julien ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
