Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 00:55:56 +0200 GMT (10/06/2004, 05:55 +0700 GMT), Urban wrote: U There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in U lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I U could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily U could be shown as emoticons. That's a good idea. U I haven't figured the bugtracker wishlist out yet. Feel free to add it U if you want to. Not me. I'm not using the smiley icons at all. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 01:47:32 +0200 GMT (08/06/2004, 06:47 +0700 GMT), Urban wrote: U IMO that is simply not acceptable, by doing so I am implying to the U receiver that if you are not using TB you are a wrong-doer. What is not acceptable about that? - scnr. U There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in U lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I U could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily U could be shown as emoticons. That's a good idea. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Wachskerzen wachsen gar nicht, sondern werden im Gegenteil immer kleiner. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello ken, On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:23:16 -0500 GMT (08/06/2004, 05:23 +0700 GMT), ken green wrote: No time was wasted kg (Note: not just to Thomas) OK. kg Every beta-tester that posts a question about smileys takes away time kg from them posting about a bug that isn't fixed yet. That's why I was so surprised it got so much attention. My answer was: maybe they like it. kg Every response to above takes away time from addressing bugs that kg haven't been fixed. You put this well. It did use resources, even if not during writing. I agree. Seeing the response to this new feature, however, it appears to be time well invested. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. In an office: AFTER TEA BREAK STAFF SHOULD EMPTY THE TEAPOT AND STAND UPSIDE DOWN ON THE DRAINING BOARD Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Wednesday, June 9, 2004, Thomas Fernandez wrote: U IMO that is simply not acceptable, by doing so I am implying to the U receiver that if you are not using TB you are a wrong-doer. What is not acceptable about that? - scnr. I guess I should have seen that one coming :-) U There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in U lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I U could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily U could be shown as emoticons. That's a good idea. I haven't figured the bugtracker wishlist out yet. Feel free to add it if you want to. -- Urban A hurricane is a breeze of a bigly size. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
ON Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 2:52:30 AM, you wrote: ttc - Try this one, sir, it has an email client, a news client and a chat ttc module, and.. Marek, I still have a old mobile phone. All you can do with it is call and be called. No SMS, no camera, no diary, no ringtones, no graphic display, no games, no bluetooth,no picture messaging, no nothing. Just call. You think there is a market for such phones? You think there is a market for just plain email programs? And no 2 persons wanting this is not a market -- Best regards, Gerard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There is no such thing as a golfer playing over his head. A hot streak is simply a glimpse of a golfer´s true potential. Using The Bat! v2.11 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hi On Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 1:38:41 PM, Gerard wrote: G I still have a old mobile phone. All you can do with it is call and be G called. No SMS, no camera, no diary, no ringtones, no graphic display, no G games, no bluetooth,no picture messaging, no nothing. Just call. G You think there is a market for such phones? Yes, IMHO, if it's cheap enough. Loads of people would get them for their kids. It wouldn't be cool'n'trendy, so no-one would steal it. It would be functional, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if it got lost or damaged. And it would enable parents to say: I'll give you a phone so that you can call us in an emergency, but I won't help you play 'my phone is cooler than yours' with your mates. But it would be nice if it had SMS. Perhaps that's the problem: we all want a simple email program, but it would be nice if it had XYZ. And if everyone's XYZ is different... G You think there is a market for just plain email programs? Yes, as long as it has XYZ :-) -- Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
ON Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 3:01:15 PM, you wrote: SE Perhaps that's the problem: we all want a simple email program, but it SE would be nice if it had XYZ. And if everyone's XYZ is different... Simon, That is so true, and in case of TB!, in most cases you do not have to use it if you do not want it. -- Best regards, Gerard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Being careful, tightening up, and trying to steer the ball will likely cause disaster. Good golfers gain control over the ball by feeling that they are giving up control. Using The Bat! v2.11 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 03:18:40PM -0400, Bob wrote: Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these silly features to its awesome mailer? Smileys seems like something straight out of AOL's cheesy mailer, and those of us that actually use instant messaging are probably not going to ditch what we currently use in favor of Mail Chat anytime soon. No, especially not when it doesn't seem to be compatible with other things than TB! itself. (or am i wrong here) If i'm right, then i can't help wondering what the benefits of mail chat would be. I have some friends, but i'm quite alone among them in using TB! The idea is neat, but if it's only to be compatible with TB, then i don't see the point in it. -- /Krister, committing blasphemy by using Mutt 1.56 under Debian Gnu/Linux signature.asc Description: Digital signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Krister Ekstrom, [KE] wrote: KE No, especially not when it doesn't seem to be compatible with KE other things than TB! itself. (or am i wrong here) If i'm right, KE then i can't help wondering what the benefits of mail chat would KE be. I have some friends, but i'm quite alone among them in using KE TB! The idea is neat, but if it's only to be compatible with TB, KE then i don't see the point in it. How about a large office setting users are on an LAN and behind a proxy and cannot use the usual chat software. All in the office use TB!. Mail chat would work well there. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgpHxH6ia8eUq.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
rich gregory wrote: My take on Smileys and mail chat: If they are mail client specific then they are completely useless. I agree, but I'm now not so sure I fully understand the chat feature. (still playing catch-up with new features, and no longer have my test machine for beta-testing). I thought I read somewhere (release notes?) that the chat feature could be used to watch a conversation (?) Could this be used in such a way as to create a virtual folder of *threads* to watch? That would be pretty cool, I think. Currently, trying to do something like that is possible, but would involve a lot of extra work (filters and message coloring, etc.) I would definitely use something that I could mark a *thread* to watch. Do I have this all consufed? -- Ken Green Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Thomas Fernandez wrote: No time was wasted (Note: not just to Thomas) I don't understand why this argument keeps getting raised. I know that 9Val made this claim in the context of no *development* time was wasted, but I think even in that context, a not insignificant time has been allotted to smileys alone. Without getting into the merits of smileys in general, or how Ritlabs announced them, etc. one still cannot ignore the number of messages devoted to a topic that some claim no time was wasted. Every beta-tester that posts a question about smileys takes away time from them posting about a bug that isn't fixed yet. Every response to above takes away time from addressing bugs that haven't been fixed. Are we to believe that smiley development is still getting done on personal time? (remembering that this was part of an official release) I really don't want to debate smileys. I can accept them as something I simply won't use - and if it doesn't interfere with my use of TB, no problem. I realize some people don't use/need Virtual Folders or IMAP. OK. I just don't understand/agree with the idea that smileys don't take up any time. Smileys appear to be a feature that's here to stay. Let's treat them that way. It doesn't matter if a new feature somehow *developed itself* and literally required ZERO development. Once that feature is introduced and released, it takes up resources. -- Ken Green Using The Bat! v2.10.03 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello ken, On 8 Jun 2004 at 17:10:09 -0500 GMT [00:10 CEST] you wrote: kg I thought I read somewhere (release notes?) that the chat feature kg could be used to watch a conversation (?) Could this be used in kg such a way as to create a virtual folder of *threads* to watch? That kg would be pretty cool, I think. kg Currently, trying to do something like that is possible, but would kg involve a lot of extra work (filters and message coloring, etc.) kg I would definitely use something that I could mark a *thread* to kg watch. kg Do I have this all consufed? Kinda. You can create a folder and then right click a message and use Specials - watch replies in and select the chat folder. That has nothing to do with mail chat, though. -- Cheers, Andre It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance. It is the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance. It is the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give. And the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Allie Martin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): How about a large office setting users are on an LAN and behind a proxy and cannot use the usual chat software. All in the office use TB!. Mail chat would work well there. True, but you could use the same argument to justify an IRC client, a download manager, almost anything. A chat is fundamentally different from email in that it's immediate, while email is a deferred model of communication. One reason I use email is that I have no use whatsoever for chat. Written conversation is s-l-o-w, almost always a waste of time, and is hard to schedule across time zones. In my opinion, a chat feature is bloat, since there's so much (free) chat software already available anyway. It certainly isn't something that will persuade me to pay for an upgrade again. - May I help you? - Hi, I'm looking for a mail client. - We have a great one here, with chat function and reminders. It can even create HTML messages! - Uh, I just want an email client, thanks. What about a web browser? - Try this one, sir, it has an email client, a news client and a chat module, and.. - sigh Best regards, .marek Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
On Tuesday, June 8, 2004 at 12:10:09 AM, ken green wrote: Currently, trying to do something like that is possible, but would involve a lot of extra work (filters and message coloring, etc.) Perhaps you want to support https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=0003088 Regards, Frank -- Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Sunday, June 6, 2004, Allie Martin wrote: U In that case the person who gets the table can do something that is U _much_ better: (S)he can tell the sender that doing tables like that U isn't necessarily a good thing and show him or her a better alternative. .. the same can apply for the emoticon issue. In fact the emoticon issue is more easily solved. I have tried to figure it out, please tell. The best I could come up with that don't involve any change in how TB works as of 2.11.02 would be to add a footnote If you are using TB and see emoticons, please take the following steps. IMO that is simply not acceptable, by doing so I am implying to the receiver that if you are not using TB you are a wrong-doer. You cannot influence how your messages will be rendered by the receiving client. That's up to the client and the users settings. Which could lead to some very unfortunate misunderstandings that isn't easily resolved even by reading the source of the e-mail. You can minimize problems but you can't totally eliminate them. I can check and I can re-check, yes, but that's about all there is. It would be nice if the program gave me some help with this, though. For example, there could be a spellcheck-like function that looked for smilies. snip It can be disabled permanently or via a toggle switch (right click in the viewer and select 'Smileys'). If the user finds an emoticon strangely placed, as I do at times, (s)he simply toggles off the smileys. I've done this for a few messages already. There's another thing that could be helpful... If you could attach (in lack of any better words) the toggle to the address book. That way I could tell you that I might very well send meaningful text that easily could be shown as emoticons. -- Urban Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Sunday, June 6, 2004, Thomas Fernandez wrote: Correct, as the smiley-function in TB has nothing to do with the author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys. Even a silly sentence as The dog says grr and the cat meows shouldn't be interpreted as The dog says angry and the cat meows unless _I_ (the sender) mean it to be so. I shouldn't have to think twice when writing it, and the recipient shouldn't have to think twice when reading it either. The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email, this is not HTML! You send the email as usual. The receipient, if he uses the RTV in TB, can choose to have the emoticons replace by smileys. It is his choice, and only his. Again: This has *nothing* to do with the sender. This has /everything/ to do with the sender. It his, and only his, responsibility to make sure that the message sent isn't ambiguous. I've shown one way to make it so, another (and IMO a much better approach) would be if there was a standardised header X-Always-Show-Smileys-As-ASCII. You asked me to stop this thread, well I tried to CC to TBOT, but I am not subscribed there under this address. So I'll just hope that anybody that does respond make a CC there. Fair enough? -- Urban Queen Elizabeth was the Virgin Queen. As a queen she was a success. When she exposed herself before her troops they all shouted hurrah. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hi Urban, on Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:20:44 +0200GMT, you wrote: U Sunday, June 6, 2004, Thomas Fernandez wrote: Correct, as the smiley-function in TB has nothing to do with the author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys. U Even a silly sentence as The dog says grr and the cat meows shouldn't U be interpreted as The dog says angry and the cat meows unless _I_ (the U sender) mean it to be so. I shouldn't have to think twice when writing U it, and the recipient shouldn't have to think twice when reading it U either. The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email, this is not HTML! You send the email as usual. The receipient, if he uses the RTV in TB, can choose to have the emoticons replace by smileys. It is his choice, and only his. Again: This has *nothing* to do with the sender. U This has /everything/ to do with the sender. It his, and only his, U responsibility to make sure that the message sent isn't ambiguous. Sure. If I type an ASCII smiley, this isn't ambiguous. When some recipients prefer to alter what I sent, there is nothing /I/ can do about it... U I've shown one way to make it so, another (and IMO a much better U approach) would be if there was a standardised header U X-Always-Show-Smileys-As-ASCII. You'll never know which other alterations some recipients' readers will change... U You asked me to stop this thread, well I tried to CC to TBOT, but I am U not subscribed there under this address. So I'll just hope that anybody U that does respond make a CC there. Fair enough? Done. :-) (Pure ASCII smiley - if you see something else, I can't help it...) F'up to TBOT -- Cheers Peter Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Urban, [U] wrote: U Even a silly sentence as The dog says grr and the cat meows U shouldn't be interpreted as The dog says angry and the cat meows U unless _I_ (the sender) mean it to be so. I agree with this and simply because IMO, an emoticon is being inappropriately triggered. Emoticons should be triggered by text that is not normally used as stand alone text. So in the case above, it would be better if the emoticon were triggered by :grr:. Emoticons should be triggered only by special character sequences and not overlap with commonly emotional words or letter combos we normally use to mimic a sound like Argh!, Aha!, Hahahaha, Gr, B, oh, etc. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgpeCRuXRLbsm.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:20:44 +0200 GMT (06/06/2004, 18:20 +0700 GMT), Urban wrote: Correct, as the smiley-function in TB has nothing to do with the author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys. U Even a silly sentence as The dog says grr and the cat meows shouldn't U be interpreted as The dog says angry and the cat meows unless _I_ (the U sender) mean it to be so. I shouldn't have to think twice when writing U it, and the recipient shouldn't have to think twice when reading it U either. I fully agree with the last sentence. However, if the reciepient tweaks his display to show something that you didn't write, I cannot find any fault on your side. In addition, I agree with Allie that only :grr: should trigger the smiley. But still it is the recipient's problem, not the sender's. The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email, U This has /everything/ to do with the sender. It his, and only his, U responsibility to make sure that the message sent isn't ambiguous. Well, this is where we disagree. IMHO your message wasn't ambiguous. U I've shown one way to make it so, another (and IMO a much better U approach) would be if there was a standardised header U X-Always-Show-Smileys-As-ASCII. Hm. You want to overwrite the recipient's settings. I don't think many will appreciate it. U You asked me to stop this thread, well I tried to CC to TBOT, but I am U not subscribed there under this address. So I'll just hope that anybody U that does respond make a CC there. Fair enough? OK for me, I am not a moderator here, and I will be gone for the next three days anyway. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Mothers all want their sons to grow up to be President, but they don't want them to become politicians in the process. (John F. Kennedy) Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello rich, On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 12:18:18 -0400 GMT (06/06/2004, 23:18 +0700 GMT), rich gregory wrote: TF I post one message in this thread after ignoring so many in TBBETA TF and here about the smileys. And I get this. Oh, well... ;-) rg So Sorry... I *should have* put in one of those MODerator-type rg I don't mean YOU in particular disclaimers! Note my smiley - I knew you didn't mean me in particular. rg I was just (like everybody else, I bet) getting tired of the rg personalized tone of the messages rather than the matter-of-fact QA rg tone I would prefer. Understandable. rg I apologize. Not necessary. :-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. FLATULANCE: Emergency vehicle that picks you up when you've been run over by a steam roller Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Urban, [U] wrote: U In that case the person who gets the table can do something that is U _much_ better: (S)he can tell the sender that doing tables like that U isn't necessarily a good thing and show him or her a better alternative. .. the same can apply for the emoticon issue. In fact the emoticon issue is more easily solved. U Normally, yes, and I shouldn't mess with the settings that _they_ U want, I don't want to either. What I want is simply a way to make U TB know that /this particular message/ contains smilie shortcuts U that should be rendered as text. You cannot influence how your messages will be rendered by the receiving client. That's up to the client and the users settings. You can minimize problems but you can't totally eliminate them. U I haven't said that emoticons are necessarily a bad thing that shouldn't U be, so I don't deny anyone anything. What I have said, however, is that U the way it works in TB now isn't good because it denies the sender U control of what the first impression of the mail sent will be. It can be disabled permanently or via a toggle switch (right click in the viewer and select 'Smileys'). If the user finds an emoticon strangely placed, as I do at times, (s)he simply toggles off the smileys. I've done this for a few messages already. U If I select another message encoding, I'll get a visual feedback U (although it seems to be true only for non-ASCII characters). If I U write :-) while composing, even the HTML-editor will only show me U colon-dash-right parenthesis without any clue whatsoever that it U might be converted to a emoticon. Of course, since emoticons aren't a part of HTML. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgpLVPCZCHwyk.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 you wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] U Not so easy if I am the sender -- I either have to start each mail with U a note that TB users should use the PTV (and maybe even a description U how to do that), or send whatever text I want to as an attachment. I don't understand why you should have to do that? All TB! users presumably subscribe to this list at least, if not the others too, so will have read the wealth of information on Smilies and how to deal with them. Other e-mail programmes work in different ways so they either accept Smilies, in which case the user involved will also be used to them and know what to do if they have the option of not wanting to see them or, with the rest, they will just see the normal : - ) instead. I find Smilies brighten up mail but sometimes I just want to read it plain so it's a very simple right click and de select. -- Regards, Richard | Using The Bat! 2.11.02 SpamPal | Windows XP (build 2600), version 5.1 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello rich, On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 22:32:12 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 09:32 +0700 GMT), rich gregory wrote: MM The Bat! has many unique features and I don't understand, why must be MM features cross-platform. rg With regards to CHATing... rg (Unless I am also as clueless what TB! is calling a chat as I was rg with the smileys)... rg If a chat client is not cross-platform then the only community you can rg chat with is others on your platform, other TB! users. Correct. Most people I know have only MSN messenger and cannot chat with anybody using ICQ or YahooMessenger. Very few use cross-platform software such as Trillian or Miranda. rg That means I cannot use this feature with 90% or more of the people I rg already chat with through my cross-platform chat client. Correct. TB is a mail client, not a chat client. Why they have included this feature at all, I don't know, but there must have been a reason. Continue to use your chat client for chatting, and you'll be fine. No, I don't want TB to have an integrated chat functionality that can understand MSN, ICQ, Jabber... rg THAT is what I mean by if it is not cross-platform then it is useless. That is why I don't use it. rg I am sorry if anyone was personally offended. Even after parsing your message again, I cannot find a reason why anybody could be offended. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. I've heard people are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Peter, On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:07:29 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 05:07 +0700 GMT), Peter Kerekes wrote: PK Who can see the smileys other than BAT readers? Everybody. Over here, :-) looks like colon-minus-rightParenthesis. You can easily see that with every mail client. All the new feature for the RTV does is show a symbol instead of the ASCII characters upon display, *if* the user (mail recipient) wishes to use that function. I don't understand the fuzz that is being made about it. If anybody wants to view emiticons as smilieys in his incoming messages, it is his private decision and does not warrant a long thread. B Did anyone actually request these features? 9Val did the smileys in his spare time for relaxation. Some guys over at Rit found them neat and said, hey, let's include them in the release version, maybe other people like them too. That's all. No time was wasted, they give you something for free (it didn't cost you anything, nor did it cost them any time) and everybody here cries foul. About the mail chat, there may have been a request. The English lists are not the only customers of Rit, you know. On the other hand, maybe they are just innovative and are trying out something new. In any case, I don't think that the work on IMAP is slowed down by it (hey, I hear IMAP Inbox filtering suddenly works, even though they forgot to beta-test it), so I wouldn't worry about that. rg P.S. The only reason I cannot agree with your first statement above rg (that TB! is awesome) is due to the seeming disregard the user rg community's issues. Aside from that TB! is still my mailer of choice rg (warts and all, as they say). PK Agree fully. 9Val has been *very* reponsive. The issue about commmunication has been solved at Rit, IMHO. PK The only salvation is that smileys can be disengaged and using PK MicroEd editor. Chat I guess can be disregarded. Still it is an PK effort to add to the program instead of using the effort to add PK other useful features and bug corrections. I'd think, nothing has been delayed because of these little toys (that I have personally turned off, becauser I have no use for them). -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Alexander Strehmel (Unterhaching): Gerade in einem Spiel, wo die Nerven blank liegen, muss man sein wahres Gesicht zeigen und die Hosen runterlassen. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Cyrille, On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:49:20 +0200 GMT (05/06/2004, 04:49 +0700 GMT), Cyrille wrote: C I am still hesitating to make TB my default mailer. And what I read on C this list in these last couple of days about v2.11 does not encourage me at C all TB has been my default mailer for 5 years. The reason I am not downloading 2.11 onto the office computer is that people have reported memory leaks, sometimes even leading to crashes. This is a show-stopper for me, smiley issues are not. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Durch einen Lichtstrahl drangen in der Nacht zum Freitag unbekannte Taeter in den Supermarkt ein. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello, I agree with some of you. I cannot understand why Ritlabs spends its resources for features like smiles, chat... Who needs it? The one and only reason I switched to Bat was it funcionality - mailer, no more no less. The more features they add, the more bugs the make. This is not problem only of Ritlabs. Many companies enhance their well established and fine working products to provide super new functions - and they cripple it! I can live with with mailer without icons and chat like, I guess, other 95% of Bat users. There is plenty of bugs that should be fixed, as already written! Develop plugins for major antivirus software. Provide better support. If you want to develop your chat, do separate product, don't mess Bat. So, congratulations Ritlabs, go on with new improvements that will make your Bat irresistable. Pleeease, can you implement feature for light control for my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish icons and fish smiles are must! Let me know you are preparing it in order to provide me enough time to find another email client. Boris smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Urban, On 05 June 2004, 03:26 +0200 (05/06/200402:26 local time) Urban [U] in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: U Not just the standard ones, and that is what is so wrong. There should U at least be a warning upon sending of messages containing the U non-standard ones that they may not come out right in the viewer's mail U client. Maybe asking to send as HTML (yuck) instead so that the receiver U can read the mail the way the sender intended it. I think there is some confusion about smileys... nothing has changed in regard to sending messages. TB! will send exactly what you write. It does not send images. If you prefer not to use 'traditional' text smileys that's fine. If you prefer not to use the 'alternate' smileys that's fine. You see, it's up to you. And usually when writing a message you have a good idea who your intended audience is and if they will appreciate your smileys. - -- As ever, Martin Webster Jabber mjw | ICQ 15893823 | PGP Key ID 0xD644460D The Bat! 2.11.02 | BayesIt! 0.5.5 (Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3 Comment: PGP Key available from ldap://europe.keys.pgp.com/:11370; iQA/AwUBQMGXWTknq5PWREYNEQJMKACfaFNO24hQQzuXieMBIhY5DNsQ3tcAn22b jzytewWB9BIoDqP6ORJBJd7W =j30B -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Saturday, June 5, 2004, 10:50:29 AM, Martin wrote (in part): AJ Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more AJ functional and useful features, and from bug elimination. MW For instance, the new emoticon feature was put together some weeks MW ago for personal use by one of the developers and is now in the MW latest release. Well, it would be just dandy if one of the chaps could stop it looping for personal reasons. MW Whilst typing this message in MicroEd I see many enhancements in the new MW release so it seems that efforts haven't been diverted too much after MW all! Well, then perhaps there should be some selling of the useful stuff and not so much of the frivolous stuff. MW My guess is we're seeing little snippets of the next version. I also MW think it will have universal appeal, satisfying 'newbie' and 'power MW user' alike. Sounds like a sensible commercial model to me. This *is* the next version, so, yes. I assume you refer to some greater version to follow? Version 2.2 perhaps? I'm a little tired of new versions constantly introducing features without eliminating major bugs. Also, the version numbers don't seem to mean a lot. I think there wer more differences between the 1.5x and 1.6x versions than between any of the 2.xx versions. MW And yes, I get frustrated with progress too... and that's why it's MW helpful to change your perceptual position from time to time. Standing on my head just makes it harder to type. Ever noticed that? ;-) -- Cheers, Allister Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Allister, On 05 June 2004, 22:39 +1200 (05/06/200411:39 local time) Allister Jenks [AJ] in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MW Whilst typing this message in MicroEd I see many enhancements in the new MW release so it seems that efforts haven't been diverted too much after MW all! AJ Well, then perhaps there should be some selling of the useful stuff and AJ not so much of the frivolous stuff. Mores the pity... but with all the misinformation going on in TBUDL at the moment it's hard to see the good stuff getting air time. ...snip MW And yes, I get frustrated with progress too... and that's why it's MW helpful to change your perceptual position from time to time. AJ Standing on my head just makes it harder to type. Ever noticed that? AJ ;-) No, I can't say I do. All I suggested was that everyone considers the current topic from someone else's perspective for a change. - -- As ever, Martin Webster Jabber mjw | ICQ 15893823 | PGP Key ID 0xD644460D The Bat! 2.11.02 | BayesIt! 0.5.5 (Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3 Comment: PGP Key available from ldap://europe.keys.pgp.com/:11370; iQA/AwUBQMGtsDknq5PWREYNEQJWSACeJPlk7oTk1iCefzhjQxDob5fWrBQAnirX RFJzrcctibLNGfDe4xAGkn4w =Fg/L -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
At 5:29 AM on Saturday, June 05, 2004 Boris BG wrote the following Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?: BG [...] So, congratulations Ritlabs, go on with new improvements that will BG make your Bat irresistable. Pleeease, can you implement feature for BG light control for my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish BG icons and fish smiles are must! Let me know you are preparing it in BG order to provide me enough time to find another email client. BG [\...] Ho hum... same old, same old non-informative stuff. Pleeeze take it to the TBB[itch] list. -- Jan Rifkinson Ridgefield, CT USA TB! V2.11/W2K_SP3 ICQ 41116329 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Jan, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 07:28:47 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 18:28 +0700 GMT), Jan Rifkinson wrote: BG [...] Pleeease, can you implement feature for light control for BG my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish icons and fish BG smiles are must! [\...] JR Ho hum... same old, same old non-informative stuff. Pleeeze take JR it to the TBB[itch] list. I kind of liked his humour, though. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. He who stands on toilet, is high on pot! Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Boris Gereg, [BG] wrote: BG I agree with some of you. I cannot understand why Ritlabs spends BG its resources for features like smiles, chat... Who needs it? BG The one and only reason I switched to Bat was it funcionality - BG mailer, no more no less. The more features they add, the more BG bugs the make. This is not problem only of Ritlabs. Many companies BG enhance their well established and fine working products to BG provide super new functions - and they cripple it! I agree with this in principle. However, the problem is the difficulty with defining that line of 'let's stop since there are too many features'. The ones who don't like the new features are usually the ones who think the line has been crossed. The ones who wish for the new features applaud RIT for including them. I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm pretty sure he's not the only one who has appreciated the HTML editor's improvements. Those anti-HTML editor posts are still vivid in my mind. ;) Chat is a mystery for most vocal members it would seem. With all that RIT are faced with, i.e., the bug fixing and all those feature wishes/enhancements, I'd be struck dumb if that chat feature weren't really in demand by some important part of the TB! userbase. :) In fact, I've assumed it is since I've been using TB! for years and have seen the pattern. Mind you, I'm certainly not saying that RIT are above or undeserving of criticism. Sometimes we do feel left out in terms of support and in terms of how timely our user issues are being dealt with. With all that has been happening this is certainly understandable. However, I thought I'd add some aspects to the other side of the coin to try and provide some balance. BG I can live with with mailer without icons and chat like, I guess, BG other 95% of Bat users. There is plenty of bugs that should be BG fixed, as already written! Develop plugins for major antivirus BG software. RIT do not develop the actual plug-ins. That's up to the anti-virus producers who will develop a plug-in only if they find it worth their while. BG Provide better support. If you want to develop your chat, do BG separate product, don't mess Bat. They did provide a pro argument for an integrated, rather than componentized featureset with optional installs. It had to do with TB!'s performance. They have considered your concern and seem to have made their choice. BG So, congratulations Ritlabs, go on with new improvements that will BG make your Bat irresistable. Pleeease, can you implement feature for BG light control for my aquarium. Nice toolbar would be welcome. Fish BG icons and fish smiles are must! Let me know you are preparing it in BG order to provide me enough time to find another email client. This last paragraph was not necessary and only damaged your message. Tell us and RIT how you feel, which is good, but please spare us paragraphs such as these. I hope you don't feel singled out since there are others who have added their own invective to their posts. However, yours was isolated and encapsulated in a single paragraph that followed a good post that would have stood nicely on it's own without the finish. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgpZPKTtXp38d.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Allie, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 06:49:57 -0500 GMT (05/06/2004, 18:49 +0700 GMT), Allie Martin wrote: AM I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm AM pretty sure he's not the only one who has appreciated the HTML AM editor's improvements. I always thought Maggie was a she. AM Those anti-HTML editor posts are still vivid in my mind. ;) Times do change. It has been proven again. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Bei Vollmond spricht man nicht. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Thomas Fernandez, [TF] wrote: AM I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm AM pretty sure he's not the only one who has appreciated the HTML AM editor's improvements. TF I always thought Maggie was a she. :oops: ... I never knew. :) AM Those anti-HTML editor posts are still vivid in my mind. ;) TF Times do change. It has been proven again. ;-) Indeed. Indeed. :) -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgp0LLcSRtueu.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Thomas, Saturday, June 5, 2004, 8:03:59 AM, you wrote: Allie Martin wrote: AM I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm AM pretty sure he's not the only one T I always thought Maggie was a she. Last I looked checking. Yep! A she!! -- Regards, Maggie Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello mm, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:52:21 -0400 GMT (05/06/2004, 19:52 +0700 GMT), mm Meister wrote: T I always thought Maggie was a she. mM Last I looked checking. Yep! A she!! If you get bored of checking, you could just refer people to the Rogues Gallery. If you send a picture to Marck first, that is. ;-) http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/rogues.html -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Early to rise and early to bed, makes a man healthy but socially dead. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, Saturday, June 5, 2004, 3:59:12 AM, you wrote: Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And it isn't hard to do so. U Yes, it's easy if I am on the receiving end. U Not so easy if I am the sender -- I either have to start each mail with U a note that TB users should use the PTV (and maybe even a description U how to do that), or send whatever text I want to as an attachment. I don't understand what you're trying to say... If the receiver uses the PTV, he/she will see the smileys as they are, wtihout icons. If they use the HTML/RTV, they will see the icons instead of the plain smileys... Why should you send a note??? -- Best Wishes, Mark using The Bat! 2.11.02 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello mm, On 5 Jun 2004 at 08:52:21 -0400 GMT [14:52 CEST] you wrote: AM I just saw one from mmMeister on HTML editor enhancements. I'm AM pretty sure he's not the only one T I always thought Maggie was a she. mM Last I looked checking. Yep! A she!! I can only speak for me but it would definitely help to include your first name under from: Maggie is pretty clear but I definitly look more often there than at the signature. -- Cheers, Andre I drank what? Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Andre! On Saturday, June 05, 2004, 8:52 AM, you wrote: mM Last I looked checking. Yep! A she!! AW I can only speak for me but it would definitely help to include your AW first name under from: Maggie is pretty clear but I definitly look more AW often there than at the signature. Andre, not looking at the sig, you miss all the delightful cookies! (I'm now cross-posting to tbot :) ) For instance, this one from Andre: I drank what? :42: -- Best regards, Mary The Bat! 2.00.6 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Richard Wakeford wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: All TB! users presumably subscribe to this list at least That's an interesting presumption. I'd think most of them don't. Do we know how many TB! users there are and how many list subscribers? -- Mike TB! v1.60q Windows XP 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello All, Friday, June 4, 2004, 2:18:40 PM, Bob wrote: B Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these B silly features to its awesome mailer? [...] Microsoftitis. Tragic, usually fatal corporate disease. B I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd like to B know if anyone else agrees with me on this. 100% agreement here, Bob. B I certainly hope this isn't an indication of what's to come for B The Bat!. Yes, all we need is another e-mail client with a 100 megabyte executable and 20 .dll files to load. big frown - -- * * Best regards, * Marc. * New Orleans, LA (USA) * FIDONET=1:396/45 INTELEC=239:600/70 * INTERNET: marc.lewis at sstar dot com * TELNET://sursum-corda.com * BBS, DATA FAX: 1-504-897-6006 * Message NOT valid without my PGP signature. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3 Comment: iQA/AwUBQMHX+vku/tz1Eg1XEQLtPACgpkhkksIHjzzQir0QCk98fgcrgCYAniV7 KkwFbNjJ0KayfV+hsBq8NR21 =+PVD -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Saturday, June 5, 2004, Richard Wakeford wrote:
I don't understand why you should have to do that? All TB! users
presumably subscribe to this list at least
But not everybody is a TB user :-( and even some TB users don't know
English.
Other e-mail programmes work in different ways so they either accept
Smilies, in which case the user involved will also be used to them and
know what to do if they have the option of not wanting to see them or,
with the rest, they will just see the normal : - ) instead.
^
What a good example of the reason I don't like the smilies as they are
today: The way they work is form /leading/ function instead of form
/following/ function.
It shouldn't be up to the author to find up work-arounds if (s)he wants
or needs something to be interpreted literarily; not while (s)he is
writing, anyway.
E-mail is about communicating, and communicating is about transferring
ideas and/or thoughts to another person in such a way that they don't
misinterpret your intentions. {Infoga Vygotskij-citat här}
I find Smilies brighten up mail but sometimes I just want to read it
plain so it's a very simple right click and de select.
SUPPOSED TO BE READ PLAINI use the PTV myself, so I'm not really
bothered by the smilies as such now that I am seasoned enough not to be
baffled by the occasional (b) or :42: showing up in illogical
places./SUPPOSED TO BE READ PLAIN
--
Urban
South America has cold summers and hot winters, but somehow they still
manage.
Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 you wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] U But not everybody is a TB user :-( I realise that and was referring to just the TB! users. U and even some TB users don't know English. Yes but there are mailing lists for TB! in lots of other languages as well. normal : - ) instead. I wrote it that way with the spaces so that everyone would see it as a non smilie whatever settings they have. U E-mail is about communicating, and communicating is about U transferring ideas and/or thoughts to another person in such a way U that they don't misinterpret your intentions. I agree but, even without smilies (or the old version as above) there is a chance of misinterpretation because, without eye contact, body language and voice interpretation a lot is missing from messages and I have, as all of us probably have on occasion, misread a message as aggravating when it isn't or vice versa. UI use the PTV myself, so I'm not really bothered by the smilies Well isn't that the joy of TB! in that it caters for many tastes? I've never touched the mail ticker apart from a quick play with it right at the beginning but others swear by it. Every Bat user has different opinions as to what should or should not be in it. If everyone's tastes were catered for and the requests for other facilities that have been asked for were added, it would become many times more varied and versatile (couldn't think of a better word) than it already is. I think its core facility still knocks spots of Eudora, Pocomail and Pegasus - the only others I've really had a go at. -- Regards, Richard | Using The Bat! 2.11.02 SpamPal | Windows XP (build 2600), version 5.1 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 you wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Why should you send a note??? U Because I do NOT want them to use the icons under ANY circumstances. But the icons themselves aren't used when you send the mail. If you write :-) then that is what is seen in the PTV. Others who use RTV will see the icons because they have presumably chosen that viewer to do so. -- Regards, Richard | Using The Bat! 2.11.02 SpamPal | Windows XP (build 2600), version 5.1 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Urban, [U] wrote: U Because I do NOT want them to use the icons under ANY circumstances. If U I write h2g2 it is because I _mean_ the book, not some little image over U which I have no control (unless I break into the computer of the one who U is receiving the mail and remove it from her/his pdsf.msl). This little dilemma is really no different from neatly banging together a table in plain text using a fixed width font. You wish the other person at the other end to see the table as you constructed it. Pity that you can't break into their machines to make them use the PTV that uses only fixed width fonts. :) If they wish to use emoticons to translate common character combo's into images, then that's their prerogative. If some of your text is unintentionally converted to emoticon images in the same way that your table or signature is messed up when viewed with a variable width font, then we can't really do much about it. There are limits to how we can assure what the other party will see at the other end. Denying them emoticon support if they want it isn't, IMO, a reasonable solution. -- -=[ Allie ]=- (List Moderator and fellow end-user) PGPKeys: http://key.ac-martin.com Running The Bat! v2.11.02 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgpQrO93x5RoS.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Mary, On 5 Jun 2004 at 09:05:02 -0500 GMT [16:05 CEST] you wrote: MB Andre, not looking at the sig, you miss all the delightful cookies! MB (I'm now cross-posting to tbot :) ) It's not that I ignore sigs completely. But will not spend all parts of it equal attention. The cookies is the most interesting part of it of course. But I meant something different: when mentioning someone or someone' mail I don't look at the mail itself. I may only look at the message list. When I want to know from whom a mail is that's where I look. Not all sigs carry a name, but the header usually does. It really helps if it's there more than elsewhere. MB For instance, this one from Andre: MB I drank what? I like it. It's funny (or maybe it isn't. But I imagine it to be.). MB :42: As always. :) -- Cheers, Andre Let me assure you that to us here at First National, you're not just a number. You're two numbers, a dash, three more numbers, another dash and another number. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Maggie, On 5 Jun 2004 at 13:59:04 -0400 GMT [19:59 CEST] you wrote: M I found Folder - Properties - Identity and changed it to Maggie. Is it better now? Yes perfect. :) You can even do it on a per template basis: %from='Name address' -- Cheers, Andre The world is only as big as the window you open to it. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello rich, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:03:37 -0400 GMT (06/06/2004, 01:03 +0700 GMT), rich gregory wrote: they give you something for free and everybody cries foul rg Nobody here has cried foul since this information was divulged, which rg in TBUDL time, has been quite a while now. rg I feel, as I am sure that most TB! users do, that the effort (now that rg it is understood) is very much appreciated. Good. rg Can we all please now focus on asking answering questions and stop rg dwelling on who thought what when? I post one message in this thread after ignoring so many in TBBETA and here about the smileys. And I get this. Oh, well... ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Si le travail c'est l'opium du peuple, alors je ne veux pas finir drogué...[ Boris Vian ] Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:01:46 +0200 GMT (06/06/2004, 02:01 +0700 GMT), Urban wrote: Why should you send a note??? U Because I do NOT want them to use the icons under ANY circumstances. It's his choice. U If I write h2g2 it is because I _mean_ the book, not some little U image over which I have no control But he does, and he choses to view your message in a way you have not written it. His problem, not yours. U (unless I break into the computer of the one who is receiving the U mail and remove it from her/his pdsf.msl). I believe you could do that. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. File - What your secretary does to her nails when the computer is doing all of the work. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Urban, On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:38:59 +0200 GMT (05/06/2004, 21:38 +0700 GMT), Urban wrote: U It shouldn't be up to the author to find up work-arounds if (s)he wants U or needs something to be interpreted literarily; not while (s)he is U writing, anyway. Correct, as the smiley-function in TB has nothing to do with the author. It is only and exclusively up to the recipient to decide whether he wants Ascii-smileys replaced by icon-smileys. Please stop this thread. The smileys have nothing to do with the sender of an email, this is not HTML! You send the email as usual. The receipient, if he uses the RTV in TB, can choose to have the emoticons replace by smileys. It is his choice, and only his. Again: This has *nothing* to do with the sender. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. You know that little indestructible black box that is used on planes; why can't they make the whole plane out of the same substance ? Message reply created with The Bat! 2.11 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Bob, Friday, June 4, 2004, 9:18:40 PM, you wrote: B Or at least give us the option of B installing it as a feature. You're not on TBBeta? If I remember well, one of the programmers told it would require too big a rewrite if these would be made available as plug-ins. Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And it isn't hard to do so. -- Best Wishes, Mark using The Bat! 2.11.02 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hi Bob, on Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:18:40 -0400GMT, you wrote: B Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these B silly features to its awesome mailer? I don't know. Maybe because programmers are young people and think these additions are nice and wanted...? B I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd like to B know if anyone else agrees with me on this. I certainly hope this B isn't an indication of what's to come for The Bat!. No flame needed here. As long as I can disable what I don't need I'm content. :-) -- Cheers Peter I.R.S.: We've got what it takes to take what you've got! Winamp currently playing: Yusef Lateef - Take the A Train/Exactly Like You Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Saturday, June 5, 2004, 7:32:13 AM, Mark wrote: MP Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And MP it isn't hard to do so. Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more functional and useful features, and from bug elimination. -- Cheers, Allister Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Bob, Friday, June 4, 2004, 9:18:40 PM, you wrote: B Smileys and Mail Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these B silly features to its awesome mailer? Why doesn't B Ritlabs just give its user base what they ask for instead of bloating B their program with this stuff? B I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd like to B know if anyone else agrees with me on this. I certainly hope this B isn't an indication of what's to come for The Bat!. I agree with you. I am still hesitating to make TB my default mailer. And what I read on this list in these last couple of days about v2.11 does not encourage me at all -- Best regards, Cyrille mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [ TB! 2.10.01, Windows ME 4.90 Build 3000, Pentium 233Mhz with 95MB ] Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello all, Friday, June 4, 2004, rich gregory wrote: If I send 100 emails out with Smileys, chances are (guessing) 60 are going to Outlook, 30 to Netscape (AOL), and the other 10 to Eudora, Pegasus, The Bat!, etc. If they only mail clients to see my Smileys are TB! clients then it is a complete waste of time and resources. There is no support for sending smileys to users in outgoing messages, version 2.11 can display text smileys as icons in RTV/HTML viewer and You can disable this feature, if You don't like them. As I think, You should test it before You are writing such erroneous informations. Same deal with mail chat if I cannot chat cross-platform then it too is a complete waste. The Bat! has many unique features and I don't understand, why must be features cross-platform. -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 2.11.02 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 AMD ThunderBird 1,2 GHz, 512 MB RAM Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello Bob, Friday, June 4, 2004, 1:18:40 PM, you wrote: Bob I know I'm venting a bit and am inviting flames here, but I'd Bob like to know if anyone else agrees with me on this. I certainly Bob hope this isn't an indication of what's to come for The Bat!. Mail chat, I don't know, but Smileys were added during personal time by 9Val.. He was not on the RITLabs clock when he did it. Whether or not you believe it to be a useless feature is up to you, but bug fixing and whatnot wasn't hurt by 9Vals work. He was on personal time. -- Leif (TB list moderator and fellow end user). Tagline of the day: Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home. Using The Bat! 2.11.02 under Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a Pentium 4 2GHz with 512MB Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello rich, Friday, June 4, 2004, 3:38:08 PM, you wrote: rich If I send 100 emails out with Smileys, chances are (guessing) 60 rich are going to Outlook, 30 to Netscape (AOL), and the other 10 to rich Eudora, Pegasus, The Bat!, etc. If they only mail clients to see rich my Smileys are TB! clients then it is a complete waste of time rich and resources. You should understand how the feature works before bagging on it. All TB does is to locally *display* the standard ASCII/Plaintext smilies in an e-mail as an image. It has absolutely nothing to do with compatibility. There is nothing TB has done to make it incompatible. :-) -- this smiley is a replacement for the text : - ) *NOTE I added spaces in the smiley so you could see it. If you don't believe me, just find a message with smileys in it and view the message source. You will find that they are the standard plaintext smileys everyone's been using for ages. TB did nothing to them. It's a local translation on your machine, which can be disabled in the Options/Preferences/Viewer settings. All other e-mail clients will see them as the plaintext smiley (unless they too convert them locally). As for it being a waste of developer time, I already wrote to Bob that this was done off the clock by 9Val. He did all of it in his off-time, therefore wasted nothing but his own personal time. -- Leif (TB list moderator and fellow end user). Tagline of the day: Secret to a long life: Don't die!!! Using The Bat! 2.11.02 under Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on a Pentium 4 2GHz with 512MB Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Allister, On 04 June 2004, 09:51 +1200 (04/06/200422:51 local time) Allister Jenks [AJ] in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MP Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And MP it isn't hard to do so. AJ Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more AJ functional and useful features, and from bug elimination. On the contrary, if you frequent TBBETA you'll learn that each developer is working on different parts of TB! And some features take more time to develop than others. For instance, the new emoticon feature was put together some weeks ago for personal use by one of the developers and is now in the latest release. On the other hand, work with IMAP appears to be progressing at a slower pace. But we know this is much more complex and is being worked on now. This is clearly evident in the latest service release. I rather like the new emoticons... they're very useful in lists and I've used them for some time... now they come with a bit of colour. :-) As for Mail Chat I can't say I have a use for it... at the moment. But that could change. Whilst typing this message in MicroEd I see many enhancements in the new release so it seems that efforts haven't been diverted too much after all! My guess is we're seeing little snippets of the next version. I also think it will have universal appeal, satisfying 'newbie' and 'power user' alike. Sounds like a sensible commercial model to me. And yes, I get frustrated with progress too... and that's why it's helpful to change your perceptual position from time to time. - -- As ever, Martin Webster Jabber mjw | ICQ 15893823 | PGP Key ID 0xD644460D The Bat! 2.11.02 | BayesIt! 0.5.5 (Windows XP Professional Service Pack 1) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP SDK 3.0.3 Comment: PGP Key available from ldap://europe.keys.pgp.com/:11370; iQA/AwUBQMD8uzknq5PWREYNEQJlCgCfaNjlejBaiukro8Tz+w3UNR4u9l8An3Sh qMmG7M9OXZUYrqrqhFDpCJPg =ymVB -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Leif Gregory wrote: Mail chat, I don't know, but Smileys were added during personal time by 9Val.. He was not on the RITLabs clock when he did it. Whether or not you believe it to be a useless feature is up to you, but bug fixing and whatnot wasn't hurt by 9Vals work. He was on personal time. Nothing is free. As a result of 9Val's off the clock efforts, several bug fixes had to be made to the smiley feature before the release. I'm willing to bet they ate into real development time. Also, their UI guy spent time converting the .ico files to GIFs, and someone built them into the installer. If Ritlabs bothered to document The Bat! there would be additional documentation tasks. Testers were distracted by them in an already painfully short beta period. And we still ended up with an initial public release that turned a common notation for the copyright symbol into a coffee cup. I like the smileys, but they really should have waited. -- George Using The Bat! 2.11 on Windows XP Pro 5.1, Build 2600, Service Pack 1. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Hello rich, Friday, June 4, 2004, 5:38:08 PM, you wrote: B Smileys and Chat- can anyone tell me why Ritlabs has added these B silly features to its awesome mailer? Smileys seems like something B straight out of AOL's cheesy mailer, and those of us that actually B use instant messaging are probably not going to ditch what we B currently use in favor of Mail Chat anytime soon. rg While I agree that neither should have taken a front seat to rg developing other features I do not think I am nearly as offended as rg you by either. rg My take on Smileys and mail chat: If they are mail client specific rg then they are completely useless. rg If I send 100 emails out with Smileys, chances are (guessing) 60 are rg going to Outlook, 30 to Netscape (AOL), and the other 10 to Eudora, rg Pegasus, The Bat!, etc. If they only mail clients to see my Smileys rg are TB! clients then it is a complete waste of time and resources. Who can see the smileys other than BAT readers? rg Same deal with mail chat if I cannot chat cross-platform then it too rg is a complete waste. rg What happens when I get an email that contains (c) for copy-written rg material I do not want to see a cup of coffee. (I would however rg welcome a beer for (b) in a bulleted list!) B Did anyone actually request these features? There are many fine B suggestions on the wishlist and I can't believe that these two B stood out above the rest. Why doesn't Ritlabs just give its user B base what they ask for instead of bloating their program with this B stuff? Or at least give us the option of installing it as a B feature. rg Boy, I have to agree completely on this! I have not only requested new rg features but placed unresolved bug reports as well. :( rg Rich rg P.S. The only reason I cannot agree with your first statement above rg (that TB! is awesome) is due to the seeming disregard the user rg community's issues. Aside from that TB! is still my mailer of choice rg (warts and all, as they say). Agree fully. The only salvation is that smileys can be disengaged and using MicroEd editor. Chat I guess can be disregarded. Still it is an effort to add to the program instead of using the effort to add other useful features and bug corrections. -- Best regards, Peter Kerekes (Toronto, Canada) Maturity is knowing when and where to be immature. TB! v2.11.02 and BayesIt! 0.5.5 on Windows 98 SE4.10.1998 A Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
On 6/4/04, at 5:04 PM, Allister Jenks sent the following: AJ Saturday, June 5, 2004, 7:32:13 AM, Mark wrote: MP Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And MP it isn't hard to do so. AJ Yes, but the inclusion of these features has diverted resource from more AJ functional and useful features, and from bug elimination. Also for the few of us with limited hard drives we could use the space for other things. Overall size in megs, it being smaller than some of the others that I looked at, is one of the reasons that I choose TB!. -- Thanks to one and all Jimmie »Stay« is a charming word in a friend's vocabulary. - Bronson Allcott Using The Bat! 2.11.02 under BayesIt! 0.5.5, Windows 98 4.10 Build A on a Pentium 133 with 128MB. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Saturday, June 5, 2004, Leif Gregory wrote: All TB does is to locally *display* the standard ASCII/Plaintext smilies in an e-mail as an image. snip All other e-mail clients will see them as the plaintext smiley (unless they too convert them locally). Not just the standard ones, and that is what is so wrong. There should at least be a warning upon sending of messages containing the non-standard ones that they may not come out right in the viewer's mail client. Maybe asking to send as HTML (yuck) instead so that the receiver can read the mail the way the sender intended it. -- Urban Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
Friday, June 4, 2004, Mark Partous wrote: Besides, you can disable both features completely if you wish. And it isn't hard to do so. Yes, it's easy if I am on the receiving end. Not so easy if I am the sender -- I either have to start each mail with a note that TB users should use the PTV (and maybe even a description how to do that), or send whatever text I want to as an attachment. -- Urban Before giving a blood transfusion, find out if the blood is affirmative or negative. Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Smileys? Mail Chat?? What's becoming of The Bat!?
On Sat 5 June 2004, 11:26:30 +1000, Urban wrote: All other e-mail clients will see them as the plaintext smiley (unless they too convert them locally). Not just the standard ones, and that is what is so wrong. There should at least be a warning upon sending of messages containing the non-standard ones that they may not come out right in the viewer's mail client. Maybe asking to send as HTML (yuck) instead so that the receiver can read the mail the way the sender intended it. I'm no fan of the smileys (indeed I have turned them off), but you can edit the pdsf.msl file to respond to whichever standard or non-standard smileys you want. Admittedly it is not a particularly intuitive approach, and does require a degree of familiarity with such things, but you can choose which smileys you want to appear in response to which combination of plaintext characters. -- Robin Anson Using The Bat! v2.11.02 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.11.02 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
